The Rules of Kawhi Engagement: A Visit to Los Angeles, with Clippers Super-Fan Paul Scheer

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out, I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. Does Bomber do what Kobe does? Black Mamba, do we have, like, you know, Kobe goes from nice guy to this other version of Kobe. Does Bomber, you know, does he become the heel? Right after this. I have noticed there's a folder in front of you, Paul Scheer. I wanted to come prepared, I wanted to come correct, because I'm sitting with a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, right? I feel like I'm being, I've wandered into a trap. I know, I am nervous, I want to let you know that people out there may think that we have animosity towards each other. Well, we should establish something about the animosity, because the reason I'm here, and thank you for having me in your home. Oh my gosh, thank you for being here. In Los Angeles. Yes. A place that I was not sure I could walk around freely. You know, it's a Clipper story, not a Laker story. But this informs, this informs the dynamic immediately, and the animosity, that is the subtext of what hopefully will be text here. I hope so. Perhaps in the folder. I was looking into just how to introduce you properly, and maybe people have seen you on, I don't know. I've done some giant. The League, how did this get made? I've made the spectrum of comedy, but the tag, actually, that I want to highlight for people who may not know you, and only know you, perhaps, because they've turned on this video, and they're thinking, another f***ing Clippers episode, Pablo, really? The best one yet, guys. Well, I've come around, I've talked to Adam Silver, I've talked to NBA owners in the aftermath of this, but I haven't talked to you, and you are known as somebody who practices comedic altruism. You're one of the nicest, kindest people in comedy. This is a thing that our mutual, we have mutual friends. Yes, we have mutual friends. Like Alan Yang, who helped broker this summit. 100%, yeah, and it was a very easy broker. I was, it was actually lovely to even know, because I would like, there's a part of me that's like, I would like to talk to Pablo at one point. And I would like to talk to Paul at one point. Oh, great. Because Paul was tweeting things, such as, on August 17th, 2026, at 4.20pm, quote, quote, is that all the people who have been applauding great sports journalism, when faced with great sports journalism by four of the most credible sources in the league, choose not to believe it. Now they are questioning sources, question mark, exclamation point, GTFO. And I should say that August 17th, 2026, was the 11th month of you tweeting about the saga. Sure, 100%. And I want it to be known to people who may not know, and get every single point, whenever I would tweet about the Clippers, people would assume that I was sh** on you. And I, and I made, and you can look up my receipts, I always like, I like Pablo. I like, I have no problem, I'm just saying. You are the Clipper fan who has lived in my brain that I've made room for, for a year. You have rented space in my head, Paul Scheer. No, I, I. You know how much I read, this is a sad admission that I don't necessarily want to make with this clarity. I do read my mentions. And I am not looking for sympathy. I am merely setting up the context of, you have been covering this story as a fan. As a fan. From that point of view, and I really want not to, as much as it seems like I'm doing the opposite, not to shame, and ridicule, and make fun of you, but to acknowledge that you and Clipper fans were never the thing I was hoping to disrupt. Well, and I really appreciate that, and I want you to know also, that, you know, for me, I never added you, people would very much respond to me and say, apologize, Pablo. And I apologize for whoever was also, by the way, being a maniacal person, a fan, perhaps, on my behalf. By the way, they should be a fan, but I wanted, I did want to draw that distinction, like, my belief in whatever, let me say this, you were right, right? Like, there it is, and like you say on the show a lot, you're an adult, you're a man, you step up to, like, like, 100%, now, I just want to say one thing. Please. Okay. I didn't know this was going to happen, that we were going to sit down. This happened in the last week. Truly. Like, I texted Alan, like, would Paul come on the show, and then I realized it was going out to L.A., and then you offered, will you show up here, and I said, let me get my advance team to sweep this place for Anthrax. Well, I was excited, and there was something that I was planning on doing, that would have been, like, a shout-out to you, because I didn't know you, right? I had never met until I walked into this building. So, on the opening night at the Clippers, you know, this year, the opening night this year, this is what I was going to wear. I want to show this to you. It's the first time ever. Oh, my God. It is a Kawhi jersey with your name on it. So, I feel like, at this point. You are holding the jersey for those not watching on YouTube. This is the. It's a. It's a Kawhi jersey, but it says Pablo on the back. If I can give any mea culpa, it is simply that, there you go. Like, this is what I was going to wear on opening night. That's so funny. That is also something that, if I were to ever wear that, I should be hurt. Someone should hurt me. No, you should. Wearing a Clipper jersey at this point with my name on the back is something that I would want someone to hurt me if I was seen wearing that. Let me tell you this. Being a Clipper fan is hard. Right? I will thank you, though, because due to your reporting, your very fine reporting that I believe will continue. Yes. You have made the Clippers organization disaster-proof. There is no lower place for us to go. Right? There used to be this sense, like, maybe we can push this behind us. Whatever this was. The racist owner. The failed attempts. The loss in the bubble. All these things. Not even signing Larry Bird in 1970. Like, we have a long list of things that have made us be like, you know what? Next chapter will be better. We can't fall lower. As an organization, I think this is it. So, I want to thank you for that. Like, you've set. Like, you've pushed us in a way to be like, well, whatever else is going to come, it won't be this bad. It can't be this bad. It is an honor to visit the Earth's core with you. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. pivot to this series in a way that surprised even us, I should say. Well, by the way, it works. And it's great. And, you know, look, and there's many times I've seen Joe Mandy on your show. And I'm like, I would like to be reading out of a folder, which is why I brought my own. And I noticed that like Chekhov's gun, it remains just sitting there ready. There is nothing in this folder about you. What I was really nervous about was when I'm here talking to you, like I will forget dates or things that I wanted to put in here. Not about your reporting, but just in the general sense, like I have quotes from Adam Silver in here. Oh, I, I, I, I want you to also, if this is of interest, ask, I have questions for you, whatever you want. This is also what I want to do. Yeah. And so I know you want to talk about Clipper fandom and, but I, so I have 18 pages that I just, if I needed to go to it, if I needed to know how many teams have never been in, uh, an NBA finals, I have that information in here. 10. Uh, you know, if I wanted to list, you know, the 10 biggest mistakes the Clippers have made, I got that in here. You have all the Wakandi spelled out in big font so that you can actually get that precise. I have a bomber statement in here. I have Adam Silver's press conference in here because I just wanted to make sure that I brought my A game. And I feel like that's the one thing that beyond all of this, you have brought your A game, like you brought your A game. And this is going to be the thing. I want to throw to you. I don't think that you ever experienced much backlash on this story because in many respects, you've hit the perfect jackpot, right? It's like, it's a billionaire, right? We're not fans of billionaires. We can be mad at billionaires. A hundred percent. You got the Clippers, which by all intents and purposes, it's like a hack joke in a standup bag, right? It's like, it doesn't matter that the Clippers have won for 15 seasons. They are perennially the worst. People hate them. They make fun of them. And then finally, you have Kawhi, a star that I've never seen anger more journalists or fans. People hate Kawhi. Isn't it interesting, those three things all together? It is like the perfect storm. Like Gary Trent Jr. No one cares about Gary Trent Jr.'s salary. I mean, ultimately, if you weren't going to get, you could never get 14 episodes out of Gary Trent. Paul, I concede that point. And then, but I'm not saying that this is. Gary Trent signing. A suspicious contract that was so inflated relative to his performance with Milwaukee that seemed to indicate that maybe there was a prearranged. deal with his representatives over at clutch my mentions also i'm like running a detective agency for capture convention at this point which is not fun right i get a lot of incoming and gary trent showed up and i was like but that's what i'm saying it's but this you're capturing three very unique things in sports because here's what i'll say i never thought you were not vindicated people have been on your side from the beginning you won the pulitzer and that moment i think what was it a week and a half where the espn article it was it was about august 17 2026 but like that was probably like the only week where it felt like it was rocky and at the end of this what we've been seeing for the last two weeks uh you know since the report has come out has been everyone dining out on the clippers bill simmons picks up a pen again and writes for the first time did you did you hear his table read of the letter he wrote i'm mad at this first of all let me just say this bill simmons not a clippers fan so him giving up clipper fandom is such bull to me i love bill simmons i'm glad he wrote because he he felt lied to right by the clippers organization i will say the part that that made me laugh yeah was the part where he says last season our connections within the organization kept assuring us that pablo's reporting was bull and nothing bad would happen sure now we're looking at three more years of a non-playoff team with the weakest future in the nba not just that but a six-row midcourt view of the single dumbest franchise in the history of the league the part about that that i was laughing at was not the man the clippers are the dumbest franchise in the league stuff which as you put it it's this is that that is that is um you know borscht belt right ancient yes right like i totally agree the thing that was interesting and that speaks to your point about what was it like to report this and what was the backlash like in public the biggest backlash was the espn article which we yes just spoke about the behind the scenes stuff is where it got interesting okay because the clippers to bill's point they were telling every media person pablo's reporting is bulls**t and even more balmer's gonna sue his ass right it kind of explains and sets the stage for why at 11 59 p.m so to speak yeah the espn article comes out and the clippers are telling every media person pablo's reporting is bulls**t and even more and it's like told you here it is right so i say that just to say from my inside the rabbit hole i was feeling those footsteps and i can imagine the pressure of one of the richest men in the world potentially suing you even i know that you feel good about your reporting and obviously vindicated right that's all there not we felt solid about it the whole time it's just when you have 170 some odd billion dollars it's scary i've never it's hard to look up at that and feel like you're not peeing your pants a little bit 100 and i can and not only do i understand that like and so yeah that's an interesting point of view too that have that and i guess it brings me to the other question which is i also felt within my clipper fandom and the people that i talked to that was the thing there was nothing here it's a nothing burger and i wonder on some level especially as we've seen the response and and we can argue whether or not like why it's a nothing burger it's like and i wonder on some level especially as we've seen the response and not and we can argue whether or not like why it's like and i wonder whether or not like why there's no admission of guilt but there's still very much like nothing happened we see things happened right we've seen the report there things have happened right i wonder if no one had this story or who was lying to who to like i am an optimist and you know without an optimist a pessimist wouldn't know how happy he wasn't uh right so right no you know so i'm like i want to believe that those people were not lying to me i'm not lying to them i'm not lying to them i'm not lying to them no and they were not lying to everybody that they spoke to because that makes it seem so duplicitous and i have a big belief that people can't keep a secret like when people go like the moon landing was faked i'm like i don't think i think someone would leak it at a certain point so so your calibration of optimism is the thing that on some level as a human i am not surprised by and in fact try to be open-minded about because i'm also trying to check out myself and i'm like i'm hearing through people that there are people inside the clipper saying i would this is a paraphrase sure i would bet my kids college tuition same that there is nothing here same and the stridence and the conviction behind that the question becomes as you just put it is that a truly bald-faced lie right because it is so over the top that you're trying to like vulnerable like fans like people who are like please tell us this isn't what it looks like and they're saying don't worry about this a hundred million percent it's not or is this as you're now i think sort of uh inferring is this sort of a russian nesting doll of information in which some people in the very center are aware of all the other things that contain but other people are not aware of the depth that is inside of this thing right and i think you get to any organization and any big organization where maybe everybody doesn't know everything that's going on not and i'm not i'm not sitting back and saying that nothing happened i'm just saying but i don't believe that that many people were lying i think they believe that what they thought and i think that that is i think that that's an important distinction like they not they didn't know the truth and they were lying i think they believed what they believe i think there are some executives with the clippers who completely knew what was happening and sure they are as mentioned in the report most notably steve ballmer gillian zucker and lawrence frank there are others who are in that inner rung of the c-suite who i find it impossible to believe that they would not know enough to avoid saying some of the right this is bullshit it's a it's a kind of stuff. And that's, I think that was the, for me as a fan, like I said, like being a Clippers fan is a tricky place to be. You're in Los Angeles. You're in a world where you are treated like people want to rip on you for everything. And I think there's a part of this story that connects back to the tissue of just saying that the only way the Clippers could have signed Kawhi was by doing this, right? Because he would have signed with the Lakers. I don't think that That's true either. I actually think that the Clippers didn't know how much they had Kawhi in a way. Like, because I feel like, I don't think LeBron and Kawhi wanted to play together. I don't think that that was on the table in that way. Well, we have these texts from the late, truly late, great Jerry West saying, you know, if you're going to join the Lakers, it'll be LeBron's caddy. Right. And I think if you're Kawhi and you're trying to leave the Spurs and the Raptors because you're trying to be the guy in your own way, I find that pitch, to me at least, can't speak for Kawhi, I see that as persuasive on its own merits. A hundred percent. And so I feel like there's a part of it where I think there's an anger, like, well, he should have gone on the Lakers, you know? And I feel like now we know why he didn't go to the Lakers, because they gave him all this money, right? And it's like, well, I think two things can be true as we talk about on the show a lot. Like, yes, there is a cap circumvention, but also he could have wanted just to go. It wasn't like, we are going to give you a deal, so come over here. I just think that was always part of the deal with Uncle Dennis, because I also have Uncle Dennis's, it's called The Rules of Engagement, it's written by Uncle Dennis's wife. Cheryl Walker Robertson. Yes, and he wrote the foreword of this. You ordered this. Oh, I ordered it. This is something that I'm mad now that I didn't order. You've highlighted it? Oh, I highlighted just from his foreword. It's not very long, you know? Wait, please, for people who aren't watching, can you explain? Yes, the book is called The Rules of Engagement, How to Win at Dining with Clients and Other Important People. It's a very unique book. It's only about eating with rich people. It's almost like church. We both went to Catholic schools in the New York area. It's almost like church miscellet size. The four images on the cover are like a generic picture of a menu. It says menu. Some glassware, people in a party setting, and like a little napkin. Yeah. It looks like they took a screenshot of the top four squares when you Google, like, fancy dinner party. Yes. This is like Getty Images all the way. It's not a book that is put out by a major publisher either. This is a self-published book. And it's the revised edition. Yes, so this is updated. And I will tell you, you know, there's a lot of good stuff in here. Like, present your credit card to the waiter or maitre d' before guests arrive to ensure the bill does not come to the table. Honestly, that's pretty good. Pretty good deal. That's game. This is Cheryl talking. So I don't know. You know, like. Well, she's an etiquette expert. Yeah, exactly. But there was something interesting in here, and I think this is where I want to go, too, which is the entire time you were doing your reporting, I was like, I want to hear more about Uncle Dennis. Man. Because Uncle Dennis, to me, is the big, giant question mark. And, you know, as he writes in his foreword, again, I was looking for more of a smoking gun, but I'm going to draw as much as I can here. In all forms of relationships, how you communicate verbally and non-verbally determine how you are perceived. And the one thing we can say from Uncle Dennis is he determines how he's received. I mean, he lays down what he wants, at least in the text that we saw in the Wachtell-Lipton-Rosen report, right? He's the most famous. uncle in sports history. I'm going to argue based on my experience reporting on him. And by the way, to your point, leaving a lot on the bone. Yeah. This man, what I love about the story, I want to hear what else you found interesting about that book because I've never, it's just somehow a blind spot for me. I've never read the book. I don't think you need to read the book. Well, Paul, the way my brain works is I got to read the book now. But what I love about this story as a journalist is that there are multiple protagonists. Yes. And any one of them could be the main character. The Uncle Dennis Kawhi story, you know, people who don't know Kawhi's dad was killed. Yes, like tragically. Yes. In like a car wash, you know, and it was really, and it's, and Uncle Dennis really took Kawhi under his wing and has been known to, we know across the board now in many ways, how much he asks for things. The yes and of this story, as in, was Steve Ballmer doing things that flagrantly broke the rules? Yes. And was there a point at which he realized, I'm in deeper than I realized? I made a deal with the devil, right? And it's like, and I feel like when I look at like coercion and intent and like, I'm not, I'm not asking for charges to be brought up, but I do think that that's a part of this that we're not talking about. And especially when you look at like how Kawhi got off, right? And there's something interesting about that, right? I mean, of course. And I think a slap on the wrist. That's what that was. And, and I think that like that, I mean, I'm just going to, I'm just pulling here, like, because he's also signed an agreement. Kawhi has signed this agreement and I put, and I went into the NBA player's guide to find this. It's like, it shall be a violation for any team or any player to attempt to enter into or solicit any agreement or transaction that would be prohibited. So saying that he merely asked, you know, it's like, and it's like, well, I can go into a bank and say, give me all your money. They're still going to arrest me for robbing a bank. Like whether or not they give it to me or not, I perform the action of. Robbing a bank. This is actually something that I have not talked about enough. And I'm glad you're bringing this up because it has been post ruling. Really interesting to see how the NBA and Adam Silver, who I talked to last week, talks about this and how fans who are like, wait a minute. Yeah. One guy fled the country and is living a life that seems to be no worse for the wear. Yeah. Outside of his uncle getting a five-year ban. But by the way, that's. He already fired him when that, when he fired him. That's when I started to waver. I was like, they've given him the heads up that something is wrong. That was around the same time that the trade with Toronto was agreed to. And when I saw that, of course, I noted it and said, this is something that I would do if I was getting out ahead of the people I'm no longer having represent me, perhaps getting in trouble. Well, let me ask you this in this world, because I want to go even to Adam Silver in a second as well, but in this world where Kawhi gets off with this $700,000 fine. Yeah. I know that Adam Silver at the press conference is very open about saying we need to send the message. We need to make sure that other teams don't do this. But isn't he also sending a message to players like, yeah, bring down your team. You'll be able to walk away. Like if, you know, if Anthony Edwards wanted to do this, like, it's like, yeah, ask for it. If they give it to you, you will be kind of fine. Well, so the two levels of this are number one by the CBA, the collective bargaining agreement. Yeah. The union of the players has negotiated. Yeah. The union of the players has negotiated in this specific way, protection that I think is a lot more impactful than what the owners have when it comes to caps or convention. Yes. The players have legal defenses. And I mean, Elhassan on the show recently said, you know, if you're a player asking, you can ask all you want. If there isn't a team that is giving, then it's not possible to circumvent the cap by definition. So I say that's the first level. That's sure. And that's what the NBA is. That's their position as they, of course, for those who are somehow unfamiliar, even though you're watching this episode, the whole thing that happened was. This is the entry point. This is hilarious. Genuinely hilarious. You thought we were going to be talking about the league. But what happened was a bit of admittedly brilliant legal maneuvering in which Adam Silver and the union settled and boxed out Steve Ballmer from arbitration, which was actually the thing that would have extended the story, made a messier, kept it going, invited further podcast episodes and perhaps new cycles and all of that stuff. The choice that Adam made, I think, therefore, to translate it simply, was twofold. One was, I'm recognizing what my powers are via the CBA. And also, it's going to be a lot easier to punish a guy that, through four separate companies, enabled something that is unprecedented. A hundred percent. And different than the Gary Trent Jr. thing. I want to acknowledge that. And from the Timberwolves. The Timberwolves thing. Yes. Well, you know, let me ask you this. What do you think would have happened if this comes out, when this comes out on your episode, right? Before there's an investigation, anything that's going on, Ballmer and company, they say, oh my gosh, we didn't realize that this was illegal introducing people to, you know, whatever it was. Or they got out in front of it in some way. I think when I've heard on your show, like, do you think that it would have been a less of a penalty, right? If they negotiated, we've talked about this, right? If? Let's just say even, forget about before the episode. Let's say after episode one. Okay. Instead of going to ESPN and sitting across from Ramona Shelburne and saying, all of this is, you know, whatever. Everything he said, which became testimony in the report, the hotel report that was held against him, as we have reported, even before that 36-page document came out. If he did none of that, and instead said to Ramona, same setting, I feel so stupid. I had an understanding of the rules in which I thought that by the letter of the law, this was okay. And we were aggressive. And we cared about winning so much that we did more in retrospect than we should have. And I'm embarrassed by this. And I want to raise my hand and say that I apologize. And I look forward to resolving this with the league. I believe that we would not be looking at this. We would not be looking at anything close to what this punishment would be. So then my question to you is, because I thought you might say that, then what does that make of the seriousness of the fines? Because it's like, if it could be wiped away with an apology. So here's what happened, though. Okay. Because he didn't do that, the question was, well, now it's time to see how much is here. Okay. And so when I publish episode one, Aspiration is the entire scope. After episode one, after that interview, days later, I first start hearing about Daktronics. Oh, really? Yes. Wow. Okay. It takes me the next year. Right, right. To actually like have the multiple sources, the documentation, all that stuff. At some point, deeper into that year in which I'm looking at Daktronics, I hear for the first time about Boingo, which I never got to publish because I got scooped by Wachtel. So what happened was, once Wachtel got assigned and I was already on it, there was a lot of talk about it. There was a two-horse race, basically, to find out what was here. And what both of us realized in parallel tracks is that there was so much f***ing here. I think that if he nipped it in the bud, if Balmer nipped it in the bud, Right, they wouldn't have gone. the incentive and the interest around what else is here, it vaporizes and we have to move on. Steve's an interesting billionaire. Like, he is one of the seventh most giving billionaires, like, in the, like, Forbes magazine said he was, like, he's, like, in that list of ten. He's number seven, I believe. The Balmer group, I've looked at their website. I've reported on things in that directory. It is sprawling and massive how much money they've given. I mean, I wrote a couple of things down, which I think is interesting. Just from, like, he is given $7.4 billion in his time of being charitable. He gave $110 million to L.A. from 2016 to 2021. You know, and what I also think is he's a guy who, you know, seems to get in front of issues, but avoid the political nature of it. Like, he'll get in front of, like, hey, Secretary of Education, like, let's not cut education research. He also did some stuff about defunding Prop 25, where he got out in front of defunding law enforcement. Like, he's taken some left-of-center stances. And all that to say, he seems to me, or had seemed to me, an incredibly straight shooter. And I guess, like, when I look at this, and I'll just talk about it in the general sense. When Steve Ballmer comes in, he rescues the Clippers out of this, like, glut of Donald Sterling, who is a, you know, again, I don't, from my own safety, a slumlord. A slumlord who is on tape saying racist rants, just a cheap owner, so many things about this guy. Showing up at the locker room being creepy around the players. Touching players like they're, like, animals. Like, he comes in. He comes in, saves the day, and I think has this energy of, like, I'm going to take us out. And everything that he does. It's really important context. That's how he was introduced. It was in the Sterling context, especially. Right. And it was like, he's saving this franchise from years of ridicule. Like, when Donald Sterling moved the Clippers from San Diego to L.A. without asking the NBA for permission, right? And I always had an issue with the way. I'm like, why are we still attacking the Clippers? This is a team that's been run by a racist. And now this guy comes in, like, nah, you guys suck. I'm like. Like, aren't we a nation built on, like, we love the Rocky story, the underdogs. Like, this is like, being a Clippers fan is like, it's like, you hate Rocky. It's like, I'm surrounded by Drago fans. So this is why you've put it in a way that has opened my eyes to something, which is that, yes, of course, to you, you are Rocky. And when you have all of the money, it also seems like you are Drago. I see both sides of that. And I guess this is where I go back and I go, well, now, what are we left with? We're left with Adam Silver punishing fans. Because I know that in his press conference, he was like, well, you know, yeah, we punished them. I think that's, in some ways, the most difficult part of adjudicating these disputes. Because while there have to be competitive consequences, our view, if these rules are violated, we still want to be a 30-team league. And we recognize that, in some ways, we're unfortunately punishing the fans of that team as well. And so that's the balance we're trying to seek. I, you know, I don't think in any way we've done permanent damage to this franchise, but there's no question this is a setback for the team. I just feel like he is using, like, Clippers fans as, like, collateral damage to send a message to billionaires, in a way, right? Like, it's, we have a brand-new stadium, I would argue. It's the best stadium right now because it's the newest stadium, right? I have no qualitative criticism. I don't have any criticisms of the Intuit, though. But you have this, this product. And so I'm like, I look at it and I go, all right, so you're hurting the fans. You're hurting this new stadium. I understand, like, there has to be penalties. And I'm not asking for there to be lesser penalties because of all these extenuating circumstances. I'm not saying, hey, yeah, sure, we cheated, but we lost. So maybe we should get those fines. I'm not saying that. Which is an argument that I'm glad we can dismiss here because that is a horrible way for any even pseudo-justice system to operate. A hundred percent. You missed the headshot. I also want to say there's such a relief to me. I know I said that you've brought us to the lowest point, but there's a relief to me that we didn't win anything because the null and void nature of what that would have been. Taking down the banner would be a lot. Because even if we won a banner, it wouldn't have been respected. And now if we had won a banner and we had this, it is doubly so. So there are, as a Clippers fan, I'm looking for the optimistic thing, right? And I am. I'm mindful that one of the things that sucks here is that the fans do suffer because of things that their team, the owner and the player, did. We didn't do it. You know, it's interesting. I think it was Donald Sterling, actually, who said it. It's like, who makes the game? Do you make the game? Right, right. Or do we make the game? Do the players make the game? And the argument is the owners make the game. Unless it's some NBA refs, then they sometimes make the game too. And we can table that for a future investigation, which I do want. I want to pursue. But that's the thing is that, like, who owns this thing? Well, it's measured perhaps not even by contracts, but in who actually suffers when the team suffers. Right. And it's you. And it's not just me. It's the players that are currently on the Clippers who now have maybe signed a deal that they might not have signed if they understood that the next, you know, these five, you know, first round draft picks were gone. Right? It's the coaches. It's this whole support staff that now, is living it. Where I could argue that Steve Ballmer, he'd pay that money. He's fine. Right? He'll be away for a year. Adam Silver did say in the press conference, he'll be accepted back in good standing. I hope to have these conversations with him. All that to say that he'll be fine. But the lasting thing is on the fans and the players. And that to me, really, like, it's very hard to just feel like, oh, wow. We are now in, this hole. It sucks. I mean, and truly, like you said, kind things to me at the very top of this. I should say it as clearly as I can. It f***ing sucks to look to the next five years or 10 years. Yeah. And feel like you're operating from a hole that kind of feels like you're in the Mariana's trench. Steve Ballmer, at numerous points, could have and should have smelled that this is not a good idea. And I don't even mean that on the basis of you're breaking the rule. I mean, you're partnering with people who have scammer-like behaviors. By the way, here are some of the people on that list. If you're Steve Ballmer and you're thinking to yourself, I was just betrayed and or effectively had my generosity used against me. It is Kawhi Leonard and Dennis Robertson. It is Joe Sandberg, the co-founder of Aspiration. It is Lawrence Frank, the president of Basketball Ops, by the way, who got a four-year extension in December that was announced. And then provided contemporaneous notes to Wachtell Lipton, in which Ballmer was quoted. Now, I will say this. That contemporaneous notes, that's a thing that most organizations do, right? Keep records of having all these meetings and stuff like that. That's a Lawrence Frank thing, in my understanding. I had heard that in corporate America, because I know that there's a lot of like, oh. But I've also heard that that is like a known thing. That may be a Microsoft thing that has come into the Clippers world, but I understood that to be a corporate thing. In general, I should say, I'm in favor of everyone taking contemporaneous notes, such as the truth is reflected. It's an interesting. Love that. Love that. And also, it shows that he knew something was going on to keep this. And I think that, and I'm not necessarily going to quote The Wire here, but like the whole thing, you're taking notes on a criminal conspiracy. The whole issue here, this is just, by the way, from Steve Ballmer's point of view. Yeah. Is that you were taking notes about the parts in which I am sounding like I'm super guilty, and you're giving that to Wachtell. Okay, right. Entirely from Ballmer's point of view. Yeah. So, in terms of like, who did he trust that ended up sort of like backfiring on him? My point is, when it comes to, you trusted someone to deceive the enemy. You trusted the NBA, and they ended up deceiving you. Yeah. The Shakespearean nature of the Ballmer character is, he has so much money, everybody knows it, they're asking him for things, and he is willing to play ball to get what he wants, but does not see the ways in which he is being used in ways that he will personally regret. Well, you know, I think that Steve Ballmer's statement, at least acknowledged, I take responsibility for the organization. What happened here? I don't like it. He took responsibility for the distress and distraction for reasons that have to do, I think, with the federal government. He has not admitted to a single thing related to his own personal decision-making, which I understand, given the larger framework of what we're also investigating now, which is the government's investigation. But he did say, I accept responsibility as a principal owner for, I guess, so I want to apologize. I guess you're right. It is saying for the distraction and distress. And it's lawyers. Yeah, it's lawyers. It's very, by the way, I'm not saying that Mr. Ballmer admitted to the court of law. In your public opinion, it's more important than your freedom, potentially, as a citizen. Sure, no. I am not naive. I am just simply saying this whole thing has been lawyered from the start. And the question that the NBA, I can report this with you, has been sort of laughing to itself about is that in the endgame, the whole thing with Kawhi, in which the league settles with Kawhi and Ballmer again is boxed out and feels like, am I betrayed? What just happened here? He and his lawyers, they. They got dunked on. And he threatened arbitration even after it. He didn't seem to get it. Right. And so it's the whole idea of, like, you heavily lawyered this, and yet at the end, your legal team, they got embarrassed. And the reason I say that is not because I want to laugh at Steve Ballmer. I actually want to take it back to Kawhi. When I say that story in that way, I am also hoping to signal Kawhi Leonard struck an incredible deal for himself. Amazing. That does not reflect his knowledge and participation in every one of these four schemes that were run in parallel. His signatures are on the documents, man. Well, it's like, remember, and this is where I have not done my research, and I should have. Like, Shohei Ohtani, right? Remember, his interpreter was betting, but it's like, wait, was that for Shohei or not? And they're like, there's a little. What did he know, and when did he know it? Yeah, and there are these things where it's like, well, if we're saying, let's all be on the level, at a certain point, you have to be like, he knew it. What's going on? One of the fun questions, and this goes back to like, what did it feel like to report this story, versus what did it feel like as a fan to feel like the world is piling on you guys. The question that I felt that was piling on to me, not in any sort of like, I'm a victim way, just like actually what the obstacle was, what's a smoking gun? Right. And so, forget about that with the Clippers part, we have the evidence in the Wachtell report and all that. With Kawhi, though, signatures on documents. If we're just going to say that doesn't matter anymore, we are truly in like a lawless, civilization. Like, that's kind of the, testifying with your signature, I am aware of this, is about as much evidence as you can get. In that way, then you also ask the follow-up question of, was Kawhi in meetings where he heard Dennis asking for such things? And the answer is also, yes, he was. Right. The follow-up question then, and this is, I've heard this from all parties involved. Kawhi's, let's call it idiosyncrasies. He's not weirdness, he's not talkative, he seems to be like off in his own world and unmoved by lots of things that wouldn't move the rest of us. How much of that is, an excuse for, or let's put it even this way, how much of that is a performance so that you don't expect him to be actually smart? Because I believe, according to my reporting, I've talked to people in the huddle with him. Yeah. And they're like, this dude is detailed. He is a leader. He is- 100% buttoned up, hilarious. And he won a title with the Raptors because he took charge and was incredibly effective as a guy in charge. And knew what he wanted. If we go back to just the base level of why we get rid of Shea, right? Because Kawhi wanted someone else, right? Like he wanted someone else that he could, he wanted a number two. Exactly. So Shea Gildas Alexander, the future MVP and finals MVP. Yes, okay. Oh God. Sorry to interrupt. I'm recapping and I don't mean to twist the knife. I'm so numb to the knife now. But to your point, it's a really good thing to raise. Kawhi Leonard says, that guy out, Paul George in. Right. That is- That is an activist approach to team building. Well, and there's two parts of this. And I don't know if you have the answer to this because I don't know the answer to this. All the people in the story act incredibly innocent, right? Kawhi's in China. He's recording music. And the intro to the music is like him looking at like the reports about him. It was the ESPN story and then the NBA statement on Twitter. And he's been in press conferences where he's like, there's nothing there. Like he like, right? So he's gotten in front of people. So bomber obviously goes on ESPN. And this is where I am. I want to admit, like, I am surely naive. And, and what I always said about your reporting was show me the documents. And I'm going to be like, great, like not the documents are soaking the gun, but it's like, you are presenting a case. Now, if someone could just, you know, like, like I just wanted to see both sides. And when I saw both sides, I was like, got it. I'm there. I totally fine. I'm a jury member. That's just waiting to see both sides. But I do find it interesting that both of these guys are so throughout this process, just seemingly acting like innocent people, which I think is an like, I'll just focus on Kawhi. That's bizarre to me. One of the things about China, which I was watching, right? So he goes, and by the way, I, I'm Filipino American. I'm one of the few Asian Americans in sports media. So we've been at this, this long, the idea that Kawhi Leonard has started around. Some sort of like label and he's signing Asian rappers. I mean, let's like, I am creaking under the weight of the content that directly appeals to me at this point. I want to acknowledge I was watching this and I was like, this is amazing. Sure. I'm in. And also in the background is Dennis Robertson. The whole idea of Kawhi has excommunicated. Let's play it out. No, no way. Yes. Let's take Kawhi's argument at face value. Kawhi, I regret the lapses by the members of my inner circle. One of the great quotes of all time. This felt like again, like the way that his contract is signed, that document never touched his hands in any way as always like who's writing this. Well, in this case, what we know is that Kawhi says by the power of logic, if this wasn't you, some dude, your uncle was signing your name and taking money under your name from your employer and four different companies that are now embroiled in a you're not representing me anymore as my unlicensed agent. But you are welcome to hang with me in China in the photos we take, because by the way, as you put it, you are the father figure who replaced my actual father who tragically died. And I love you. And you are the person who wrote this book that you posture has bought. Like the whole idea that this was a thing that Kawhi would have cut ties with Dennis Robertson about. Right. Of course not. He would have sued him or he would have gotten that. Like there would have been a bigger break. On all of this stuff. I'm just saying that they remain family. Yes. And I don't think it's in spite of an operation Dennis ran without Kawhi's knowledge. I think it's in the course of how they were. What's the title of that book? The Rules of Engagement. Yes. And by the way, there's another quote that I will read you from the top, which I think ties right into what you're about to say. It goes to win. You need a strategy that advances a competitive advantage. And they got leverage over one of the 10 richest people in the world and used it in a way that no player and his unlicensed representative uncle have ever done. Yeah. Well, and this and I will go and then I go back one step further and some of the things and I can say this because this is not about Clippers that you read in that Wachtell report. This is about executives. This is about different things, organizational things. Dylan Zucker, the president of business is also a potential main character. Oh, a fascinating main character. Fascinating. You have this thing where why wouldn't they just start a social media account for him? Like, like why? Like the easiest thing that you could do all this year would have run this pro bono, right? I mean, like there are things in this that are shockingly dumb, right? And that that to me is I'll focus on that because that base level, the dumbest. And why not even do the ties of just like you could have buttoned this up with a couple of the tiniest little things. And that's also like, well, so we want to believe that they are smart, but they're also acting very dumb. And I think the thing that is consistent through both being smart and being dumb is feeling like you are smarter than others, right? You're invincible, you're gonna get through this and no one's gonna figure it out. And in that ability to be smart enough to know better, but not act on such a concern, you have a familiar downfall. And I think in this way, when it comes to like, well, you pose the question of like the sliding doors moment of like, what if Steve had apologized after part one? The other one, of course, is what if Kawhi had done a single thing for any of these companies? Honestly, just have a social media handle, which he only started this year, this year, like the extremes of him, of Kawhi, of being like, one of my rules of engagement is I'm not engaging. Right, right, right. Yeah. An construct that you in the case of this whole engagement being actually elicit by the rules you're supposed to respect. So there's so many elements to this. And I do just a circle and just say, I feel like the one thing that I really missed as a fan was, well, what are you doing for us? You know, if it's me, I say to the Clippers, fill this arena, make it dollar seats, get everybody there. I think the team is going to be good. I mean, I like this team. I like the coaches of this team. The team this season is exactly the team that it was going to be before you lost by a hundred percent. So this is going to be good. But I'm like, what are you doing for the fans? Where's the outreach for the fans? And that statement wasn't to fans that didn't feel like to fans. And I was upset about that because what I want to see is own it. And here's my, here's my bad pitch. And I, and this is where my fandom will take over. You can make fun of me all you'd like. I think does bomber do what Kobe does? Black Mamba. Mamba. Do we, do we have like, you know, Kobe goes from nice guy to this other version of Kobe does bomber, you know, does he become the heel? Does he start dressing all in black, put an eye patch on him, get him out there and make him a villain? Because it's like, what, like we need some, we need something to grab onto, you know? And I like, I want them to have a banner. It's like, we circumvented the cap. You circumnavigate the snacks, all snacks free this year. Like we can afford it. Like, you know, like, like give us something, you know, some of this merch for us. Like, you know, one of the things that we are facing is a story that has been, and I, and I am responsible and, and a participant in this that has become because sports matter so much, right? So traumatic for the fans of this team and for the people who work in that organization, that's real. The question of, can you as a team ever begin to actually judo move the jokes being made against you? This puts you in the basement. So embrace the basement. What's so bizarre about this story, like the nesting dolls of the story, it's like, let's go to the real world now. And even there, the question of, is this a crime? Is this worthy of investigation? What is a conspiracy perhaps to commit securities fraud? We talked about in the last episode, what does that look like? And who would want to prosecute that? And what does it mean that Donald Trump is the president? Right. And, and God damn Todd Blanche is the attorney general and cash Patel, the FBI director. We are talking about, as I was trying to assess with the NBA stuff, perhaps not a real justice system. And so we're trying to find information. We're trying to try to tell the story. That's my job. But the question of like, what is your season going to be like? What are your next two to three years going to be like as the federal government is investigating the Clippers? Right. And you will never get out from under that. I dude, I, I, I do not have that answer. In my mind. Oh, I have friends within the organization. Not I'm not talking C tier suite, you know, but I have people I have kind of have had. I would hope so because you are doing a better job. Of speaking the perspective of people who care about the Clippers than anybody who works for the Clippers. Well, I will say this. I love this team. I love the passion that this organization has has. And it always felt to me like we're all in this together. We understand that we're trying to get out from under the shadow. I don't think that's possible. Like the Lakers and the Celtics are just like, when you think of basketball, you think of that, right? It's like you can't escape the Lakers and the Celtics. They are the models of it. I don't think Oklahoma City, even though they've won these things, I don't think, you know, I grew up a Knicks fan. I know the pain. What a strange year for you. Oh, it was. So I came out to LA and the reason why I gravitated to the Clippers was like, I don't want to be a guy who only goes to like two basketball games a year when the Knicks come to town. I want to like bring my kids to games and I want to root for a team. And this is like the Lob City era. And it was great. And it was like, this is fun. Blake Griffin's so funny. And he's on Funny or Die as an intern and whatever it is. And I fell in love with the team and the underdog spirit. Like I am in comedy and that's appealing to me. It's like, I don't want to. I don't want to side with, and I'm not saying that Lakers are bullies, but you don't want to side with the, you know, you don't want to. Yeah. Right. And so, and I, but I came from years of the Knicks who in many respects, not this year, but it has similarities to the Clippers as far as like, they got close and they went down and Michael Jordan and all. So I'm watching the Knicks and I have such a place in my heart for the Knicks. It was my whole childhood and I'm watching them go up and I'm just like watching this other thing go here. And I'm just hoping, I'm hoping like, and I, and I felt like, like, honestly, what was so hard about this was if they got off with nothing happening, it would have been like, well, something actually did happen. And if they got off with this, like we knew it, they suck. And so there's no winning. There's no, and, and knowing that there's no winning, I kind of now feel a relief. It's like, I'm here. Let's go. Let's like, you can't hurt me anymore. We're here. And I do believe that there's such a giant contingent of fans. That love this team and love this org. And that doesn't mean loves all the moves at the front office makes. It doesn't mean that we, you know, and I think if you can, the lightest way you can say it is that our owner in a, in an attempt to, to get ahead, to move the team out of this place, did some things to benefit the team. Was that the right move? I know. Right. But it's like, but at least it was done in the want to lift the team. I think that sports fandom, is this incredibly precious, special thing, because what you have said is something that no person would say about pretty much any other product. Right. Right. Yeah. You have attempted and made a heartfelt case for why you still care about this. Despite everything you've been generous to the people that you've trusted your money to, even though I could argue very easily that they abused that trust because this totally backfired and it set you guys back to that, that, that sub surface of the earth. We were in the basement. Now we're in the sub basement. You have discovered new basements. Yes. We're in the back rooms. Uh, now we are the architecture of your mind is an increasingly terrifying place because you continue to care about this team. But here's the thing. This is what kind of got me about Bill Simmons. I think a lot of people are like, I'm throwing away my Clipper fandom. I'm, I'm revolting against this ownership. I don't know. I will be here and I'll be talking to you about a second round pick that I think is good. I think we got it. I think we got something. Keaton Wagler takes long after I mean, the federal government may be done with this story. And I'm going to be like, you know what? We did it for like Norm Powell, uh, Zubach, these guys, we got them up. We'll get them up, you know? And it's, and it's the underdog story. I ain't here. No bell. Paul Scheer has not heard the bell. I, I look, I don't want to walk away that easy. Too. Like, it's like, what? I don't feel joy in that. And I feel like everyone who was like, just throwing up their fandom. It kind of bums me out because it's, it was already tough to be a fan. So if you're surprised by this or you're disheartened by this, then, then you weren't a fan. You were, you're now Bane. Yeah. You were born in the darkness, raised by it, molded by it. That's why we need, we need the black Mamba version. Oh my God. Steve Ballmer wearing the fucking mask. Bane mask. It's let's get it. Now I know that we're probably reaching our time to the end. I wanted to, you've been amazing. Uh, I appreciate you talking to me, but I, I wanted to talk to you about a tip that I might have for you. So if you reach under your seat, uh, there is, there is a folder underneath your seat. All right. So there is a folder. I just, uh, hopefully keep it closed as much as you can. All right. So I wanted to, you know, look, you've done amazing journalism. I've been seated upon a petard and I want you to see a piece of, uh, I have some, I think some breaking news in here for you. Go for it. You can open it. Tell people what you're seeing. This is a photo of another person we've been investigating on the show. Uh, whose, whose name is Jeffrey Epstein on his private jet. It looks like, uh, and his foot is being massaged by, uh, Chuck, Chuck, the condor. So I just want to show you that I look, I want you to continue I think that there is a connection here between Chuck, the condor and Jeffrey Epstein. I think he's been to the Island. I need to, we got to bring down Chuck. We need a better mask. This is, um, a horrifying image that I don't think I'll be able to forget for a very long time. Your mastery of Photoshop is far greater than that displayed on the cover of rules of engagement. Okay. This has been Pablo Torre finds out a metal art media production, and I'll talk to you next time.