The royal love letters that prove Charles did love Diana

The Telegraph Princess Diana would have hated how her younger brother has laid bare the circumstances surrounding her death. That's according to one of the last journalists who had tea at Kensington Palace with her before she died. Godmother of royal reporting Ingrid Seward joins us to give her reaction to Earl Spencer's explosive memoir. She said that Charles and her had loved each other and it was really hurtful to the children, William and Harry, that he said, that people are saying he never loved her. She said it was really hurtful and it was absolutely important, because this is what I was writing about, of course, that the boys knew that they had loved each other. And she said, when they open the Royal Archives and see our letters, then the world will know. Ingrid Seward. Let's call her, her true title, Hannah Furness, which is the godmother of royal reporting, is in the Daily Tea studio to discuss your new book, Catherine and Diana, perfectly timed, Ingrid, for the current state of royal crisis. But before we get into the details of these two ladies, can we just discuss Charles Spencer's claims about the king? Because you were there, and Hannah reminded me earlier, didn't you have one of the last, last conversations with Diana as a journalist before she died? I did. I mean, I think I did. It was certainly a few weeks before she died, and I don't recall anyone else having a, you know, a journalist having a conversation with us after that. So, and actually, because I was writing a book about William and Harry at the time, I asked her lots of questions about them. And she was so forthcoming. She was. She was like, I was her best friend, which I found a bit disconcerting. Because when you meet someone as famous as that, and, you know, you've met them in, you know, and I've chatted to her, but never like this. She said, oh, Ingrid, come and let's have a girly chat. And then did she tell you much about her marriage to Charles? Yes, she did. Give us your kind of, give us your takeaways from that conversation and your reporting of the time in reference to Spencer's narrative of those events. She said that Charles and her had loved each other. And it was really hurtful to the children, William and Harry, that he said, that people are saying he never loved her. She said it was really hurtful. And it was absolutely important, because this is what I was writing about, of course, that the boys knew that they had loved each other. Oh, the letters in the archive. I mean, this is extraordinary to hear in light of the Spencer allegation that after Diana died, the king was giddily excited about it, like a lottery winner. Based on that, that strikes me as the absolute last narrative she would want out there. It feels very cruel for Spencer to put that out in the world. What is your reading of what really happened? Well, I think what happens is, I mean, Camilla knows this, when my husband died, he died really, really suddenly beside me. And I just went into shock. And I actually thought, you know, I was almost, the shock makes you almost high. And I was totally mechanical. I rang up my girlfriend and I said, Ross has died. I mean, how more mechanical can you be? And people couldn't believe it. They thought, what's wrong with this girl? So I completely understand Charles appearing to be on a high because he was in huge, huge shock. And my reading, my reading of the situation is that possibly he said, he was saying, you know, the boys have to walk behind Diana's coffin because after all, people possibly will forget her. They will forget her. And he thought that it was really important that they had this memory. That's obviously, I don't know if that's the case. That's my reading of the situation. And you're the closest thing we have now. We've been talking for the last week or so of, you know, people who have died and people of my generation who are the royal editors now. We were at primary school when this happened. And it's sort of people like you who lived through it. And can you tell us a bit about the access you had back then? Because it was a totally different media landscape, wasn't it? The idea of going for lunch with a member of the royal family for a gossip as a journalist. Well, I didn't, I mean, I didn't have to ask anyone if I could go. I mean, her secretary rang me up and said, the princess feels it's time that you had a girly chat. Come to Kensington Palace, you know, whenever it was. And so, but back in those days, you had much more access to the royal family. I also written a book about Fergie. And I, you know, I interviewed all her friends. I dealt with a private secretary and interviewed all the friends. And when I did a book about Edward, and I was talking about the Royal Marines, I went down to see all the Royal Marines. I mean, it was such fun writing royal books then, which it certainly is far, far more difficult now. And they knew you were writing the books and therefore they took a decision as to whether to help you or not. So at the time, Princess Diana, mindful that you were writing a book about her sons, probably thought, well, I'd rather give Ingrid my input than not. Absolutely. And I think her real worry was that I knew about Hazanat Khan because I'd written a piece in the mail, the Daily Mail, saying that Diana was smuggling men into Kensington Palace under a blanket in the back of the car. And that's because a member of Star had seen the car go in and somebody get out. And they told me. And this is the surgeon, the heart surgeon. This is the heart surgeon. Now, I didn't know that, but she didn't know I didn't know that. Right. But when it comes to this kind of Charles Spencer versus Charles Windsor row, who do you believe, Ingrid? Because you've also got up close and personal with the King over the years. You've been royal reporting now for nearly half a century. Therefore. Gosh, that makes me sound so. I know, sorry. I don't mean to age you like that, but I'm saying, you know, you have seen it all with your own eyes. You've been a chronicler of history, so to speak. Who do you think's telling the truth? Well, I think they both are. Explain that. Because I think this is what Charles must have said something similar. Because I don't think Spencer would make it up, but it's his memory of it. Yes. And I think it, but I think it was the most appalling, disrespectful and unnecessary thing to say. And I think that Diana would, be so upset if she thought that her brother of all people had been so incredibly unpleasant to the children's father. Yes. And also, and we quoted Tina Brown on a previous Daily Tea when she had written in her book about Diana, that when she met up with the princess before she died, when she was over in New York, the princess had indicated that she and Charles were on very good terms, that they were having tea together at Kensington Palace, to discuss the sons and the education at Eton and all the rest of it, with Harry, I think, due to start pretty shortly. And Tina Brown claims that Diana had turned around and said that she would take Charles back in a heartbeat. And I only say that, is that, do you remember her saying anything like that to you over lunch? No, but I think, I think I absolutely believe that. Because I do remember, and I've just remembered now, she said to me that she and Charles sat on the sofa at Kensington Palace and cried. Post-divorce? Post-divorce. What kind of ruin? About the sadness of the situation and how they hadn't been able to make it work. So they were taking equal blame. And I think they actually did get quite close. Yes. So I totally think this is a different way of looking at it. And the other thing that Diana said to me, and some of this is in my book, but not all of it because I've written it before, is I said, and I was very brave, Camilla. You would have been proud of me. I was very Camilla Tomily that day. Thank you very much. Go on. I said, well, what about Camilla? And she said, well, what about Camilla? It wasn't Camilla that ruined our marriage. And I nearly fell through the floor. What did she mean by that? Well, I'm not sure what she meant by that. I said, well, I did say, well, what do you mean? She said, it wasn't Camilla. It was the people around Charles that ruined our marriage. Because that person puts into context. I ask Ingrid about that because it is important to know how these two once married and then divorced people acted around each other. The Spencer narrative almost suggests, you know, he's gleeful because he's rubbing his hands together thinking, oh, great, Diana's dead. Now I can marry Camilla. But I think it's important to see the context of their relationship in her final months. Because if they were that close and we take into account the staff at the hospital in Paris speaking about how the then Prince of Wales was distraught, identifying his ex-wife's body, spending half an hour with her by himself, emerging in tears, then the notion of him being in any way elated at her death just seems even more improbable. It wasn't like these two were at each other's throats until the very end. No, they weren't until the very end. And also remember the Queen Mother was still alive. Now, I don't think Charles ever would have, marry Camilla as long as the Queen Mother was alive. that's a good point yeah and the queen yeah absolutely and i don't i don't think he was he was thinking about marrying camilla at the time i don't think i think it was the furthest thing from his mind i think that didn't come into his mind later with the queen i think encouraged that because she she said wonderful remarks she said she said well supposing i was out riding and fell off my horse one day well what would happen what would happen to this camilla situation it's got to be resolved and do you think but of course charles spencer doesn't know anything about that i mean he's a very one-sided view of everything which of course is his view basically the book's about him not about diana and he does have people around that he could have consulted his sisters for example were there weren't they when diana died they were much closer to the situation they were much closer to diana than charles was because as a child diana worshipped her elder sister sarah not that she she worked with her sister sarah and she worked with her sister sarah she used to go and clean her room do her packing do her ironing groom her pony she had a sort of crush on her elder sister um so it wasn't charles that she spent all the time with it was really she was away at school she had a lot of friends and of course she loved her younger brother but he was younger he was a baby brother good point and al spencer has said in the course of interviews about the book that he didn't consult his sisters he didn't consult his nephews they didn't he didn't to be sort of embroiled in this but he also said that nothing in there would be a surprise to william or harry i wonder whether it gives us a bit of an insight into the way harry thinks now is if this is the narrative he's been learning from his uncle behind the scenes that his mother died and his father was elated about it can we read anything into it do you think of how harry is i think we've got to get rid of that word elated because i'm saying his father was in shock which is like an elation it's the same sort of woof i don't know you mean kind of like hyper hyper you get this news and you just completely discombobulated you discombobulate from the real world you're just hyper that's what i think if he said charles was hyper then it would ring true but his interpretation is wrong i feel yeah completely wrong to be fair when he was challenged by the bbc's laura kunzberg he sort of said well that was my interpretation of his mood but obviously i'll but as you say i'm in a sudden and tragic death he did strange things to the nation exactly i mean you had people this outpouring of grief for a woman most people had never met so imagine actually knowing her and this is the other thing about the context of it she was without overstating it a pretty remarkable woman ingrid i mean how did you find her when we've interviewed in the past people have worked with her journalists who've covered her her nearest and dearest i mean she did have a degree of star quality well beyond the sort of red carpet she she was she was a pretty special woman would you agree with that oh yes and she had this knack of as i said earlier making you her best friend yeah but she was different people on different days different things depending on her mood she also told me that uh she found it very difficult to go out and meet the public because they had preconceived not that she used that word a bit long for her they had they did have preconceived ideas about her and she was worried about her and she was worried about her and she was worried that what they read in the newspapers that day they would think was the her so she really had to sort of gird her loins to go out and meet people which is why she was so bubbly and effervescent that was part of her character she's a very very complex person and i do go into that in quite some detail in my book and i think that catherine as you know the current princess of wales learned a through william yes um because catherine is is careful not to give too much of herself away no which is why we think we don't really know her because she's keeping it back she uses all her charm and beauty and her brilliance with children and when she's talking about something she's really sort of fascinated with you know like like the you know young children and their upbringing affecting their whole lives she's so animated and she's animated when she's talking to people but she deflects she doesn't talk about herself that much diana would tell you everything about herself which was wonderful and that's why people adored her she'd say did you watch eastenders last night and then she'd go on and she she actually watched these television programs so she had something to talk to people about comparatively i mean what's your reading of catherine she's an enigma really she is an enigma for me she's much more like the terms of the style of royalty than diana and i find it really interesting that kensington palace and william have made it quite clear that she's not trying to step into the shoes of the late princess of wales even though they share a title they seem very different to me but i think your point is exactly right that william has seen his mother's life and all the good bits of it but also the things that that went wrong and he's very desperately keen that it doesn't happen to the current princess of wales you can see that in how long it took him to marry her exactly exactly and i just feel that uh he's he's told i mean william is an intelligent young man and he he said he would have said you know just don't give too much look at what happened to mum don't give too much away just just be yourself and she is being herself which is why we love her but she doesn't need to divulge too much she needs to remain this slight enigma because that protects her because imagine if diana was around now it would be completely mad with yes with social media and everything else but but uh katherine's got to deal with all that and she needs a protective shield or else people are just going to crawl into her into her that's right diana used to say about photographers she felt as if she was being raped by the camera which was a really interesting thing she told actually richard k and he did an article for us in majesty and she said she felt if the lenses were inside her clothes yeah it's like an it was like an assault it was so intrusive it's so interesting isn't it the whales are the undersharers to the sussexes being the over sharers but then there are two different personality types in both couples william and kate are intrinsically introverts they're not party animals they're not going to be the ones dancing on the tables at the end of the night you know they used to be well possibly william used to be people forget that i think i know i mean i remember i remember him covering him passing out of his passing out parade at sandhurst how drunk was he i'd say eight out of ten thank you very much and so that was a funny story no i get that they've had their moments but i think comparatively the whales is of the couple who like to have a nice meal in with friends and they're not necessarily going to paint the town red and i think harry's already always had the reputation of the party prince he's a natural extrovert megan is a natural extrovert she's an actress or of course she's a natural extrovert former actress i just think it's really intriguing to look at diana and then look at katherine and i totally see your point about not letting too much in to what extent do we think katherine has studied royalty or like where's the advice coming from it's coming from her husband is it coming from her mum how do you navigate life when you're the princess of wales well she's had to learn it and she's had to learn it and she's had to learn it gradually hasn't she she's been doing this since university over yes 10 years i forget a long time while through the engagement and through the wedding so it's been a very slow gradual thing and you'll remember when megan arrived there was this boots on the ground they kept saying she wants to get her boots on the ground like get stuck into changing all these things for britain and katherine has been very slow and steady it's taken her a very long time to figure out which causes she wants to throw her weight behind yes isn't it and i think it's been a very slow i think she's just a very naturally cautious person they're also in a really different ecosystem to diana so if you think about the opinions katherine i can almost think of no controversial opinions that she's ever shared even things like she does all the baby early years things i've never heard her say how she's fed her babies for example yes because that is a very polarizing thing although we've got wonderful podcast though well i don't know claire byam cook i'm sure it was her breastfeeding tutor i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know but she wasn't ramming it down anyone's throats that's right the almost the most edgy thing i ever remember her covering her saying was we were trying to get down to why she had been involved in action on addiction and the forward trust and then her people at the time said well she's experienced a degree of addiction in the family and i thought oh uncle gary but then it was also when she's like look to this and actually addiction is at the heart of quite a few problems in people's early years and i sort of thought oh well that's quite edgy i mean it's funny because she was kind of investigated when she was first on the scene for being a bit too wise beyond her years and maybe being slightly middle-aged when she was just a young woman but actually that level of maturity and that ability to just stand back and not rush headlong into things she she it's the ultimate marathon versus a sprint isn't it those two haven't been in a hurry because they know what their destiny is there's years and years and years and years of this but what's your reading quite a few people about katherine ingrid say she is secretly the power behind the throne And although when you look at her, you don't think that she'd be a particularly dominant character behind the scenes. She's playing this enormously pivotal role as the wife of a future king and the mother of a future king. I think you're right. I think she is the power behind the throne. And when she became ill with cancer, I think it threw William completely sideways. And he thought, I cannot lose this woman. So he did everything he could not to. And I think it really threw him because suddenly the roles were reversed. Because I know as a young girl, when Kate, as we called her then, used to go and stay at house parties, she'd be up in the morning saying, right, come on, we're all going to church. And she was sort of doing the right thing. You know, William would probably be half asleep with a hangover. So I feel that this role reversal, when she had the cancer, and we remember that William just, you know, stayed with her. And it was the king who said to him, please just be with your family. You've got the rest of your life to do this job, which is why, do you remember we used to say William was work shy? And that was because his father had encouraged him to get on with things he wanted to do, because he knew the rest of his life, he was going to be dedicated to his role as Prince of Wales and hopefully later king. They can't do Cambridge's era, bless them. I suppose the one thing that they very, very clearly learned from Diana and the Diana era is focusing on family, isn't it? Of the importance of having a stable home for the children and the future king not replicating this war of the Wales' family disharmony that was back in the 90s. Well, it's the Middleton model, right? I mean, the Middletons in this entire scene, this entire royal scene, the only family that seems vaguely functional is the Middletons at the heart of all this. You know, Meghan Markle's family, the Spencers themselves, the Spencers. It's like if they've modelled themselves on Carol with an Ian Michael, you know, she's incredibly close to her siblings, James and Pippa. That degree of normality, kind of domesticity has been key, Ingrid. Definitely. I mean, you could have written this book for me. Well, do you know what? If I hadn't had three children and got two jobs, I should have probably written a royal book and Ingrid, I'll get onto that next. I'll put it on the to-do list. I wouldn't bother. I think, I do think that's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I do think there's an awful lot of royal books around at the moment. Ingrid, you can't talk yourself out of your own. No, fair enough. But some people are more well-placed to write books than others. But continue that thought, Ingrid. So I write about this. I'm a great fan of Carol Middleton. Are you? I am. I mean, she's strong. She's tough, I would say. And she's totally focused on getting her children to where she feels they should be. And she's helped Kate a great, sorry to call her that, but I think it's easy. Do you know what? I once discussed it with Kate. I'd like to just set the record straight on this. Oh, tell us. When we were at a reception once, I said, listen, we're having a debate about Kate versus Catherine. And it's quite difficult to get Catherine in a headline. And she was like, oh, I don't mind. People call me all sorts of different things. Some people call me Catherine. Some people call me Kate. So we're like, all right, Kate it is then. Although as she's matured, it seems more appropriate. They don't mind Kate, Middleton. No. The headline, you know, American magazine headline, Kate Middleton, 15 years after she changed her name. But sorry, carry on Ingrid. What were we talking about? So I also talk about Mrs. Sian Kidd in my book. Yeah. Diana's mother. Diana's mother. Yes. I had access to some diaries. I call them diaries, but they were just a series of interviews, chats, actually more than interviews that she did with a great friend of mine. And he gave me these. They were unpublished. And Mrs. Sian Kidd, I have to say, she does a lie with her son, Spencer, in this dislike of the royal family. She didn't to begin with, but she felt that after Diana died, they behaved very badly. And it started at the funeral with the choice of music. The Spencers had to fight for the music that Diana wanted. They said, oh, no, no, that's totally inappropriate. What did Diana want? Like, wham? No, no, no. What they felt, sorry, Diana did, that what they felt with Diana's favorite hymns, which was like Bread of Heaven, which is I vow to thee my redeemer. How's wrong with that? Well, exactly. But I think the royal, not the royal family, but I think they had a different protocol. It was all about protocol and they wouldn't let this protocol go, which is why everyone talks about the men in gray suits, because they are hung by protocol. Yes. And what they can do and what they can't do and what they should be doing. And Mrs. Shankid actually didn't get to see William and Harry until she finally, finally got through to Prince Charles and said, I would like to see my grandson. I am the co-guardian with my son, Charles, of these boys and I want to see them. And in the end, she went to Highgrove, which she moaned about because it was a long drive for her from Scotland to Highgrove. And she then also was so frustrated that she actually went to see William when he went to university because she hadn't seen him for so long. And she was really upset by this. She was also upset by the fact that after the funeral, she'd had no contact with the Queen at all. The Queen had never rung and said, how are you? But that's not really the Queen, is it? No. But the Queen was quite busy at the time, reassuring a nation in crisis. Mrs. Shankid then said, I became a Republican. Oh, did she? Yes. But I mean, we'd need another podcast to discuss Mrs. Shankid. And her relationship with her children and how that might have affected both Diana and indeed Charles, right? Yes. Because they claim that she abandoned them and left them with acid rain, as they described. No, that's not true. No, isn't it? The stepmother that they didn't like. Oh, well, Diana was best friends with rain in the end. That's how I got to Diana, was through rain. Oh my goodness. Blended family. There's too much to discuss. But Ingrid, you know what? Diana would be proud of this because this is a girly chat. It is a girly chat, isn't it? Wonderful girly chat about. Two of the most significant women in the royal household in years. We were doing a podcast. I'm just chatting with. This is the joy of the royalty. Ingrid, your book, Catherine and Diana, is out now. It's out now. Good stuff. And thank you very much indeed for joining us and sharing some of your memories, which are just priceless. Brilliant. Thank you. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.