The Rolling Stones' "Paint it Black"

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In fact, this is basically a goth raga surf rock, Spanish ballet, Indian, and Middle Eastern song. All wrapped into one. All in one. Walking one song and that song is painted black by the Rolling Stones. Hey one song listeners, if you love our show, you should check out Trapidol, the podcast where technology meets culture. Each episode, Trapidol hosts and founder Dan Runsee. Takes into the strategy behind the media and technology that drives our attention. You'll hear Trapidol explore topics like YouTube's growing influence in music and entertainment. The never ending saga about TikTok's future and how AI is shaping the future. Media is one of the first industries to get disrupted by the tech. It's Trapidol's job to keep you ahead of the latest trends. You can listen to Trapidol wherever you get your podcast. That's Trapidol, TRAP, ITAL. I'm actor writer director and sometimes DJ D'Alorado. And I'm producer DJ songwriter and musicologist luxury, aka the guy who ispers, interpolation. And this is one song. The show where we break down the stems and stories behind iconic songs across genres and tell you why they deserve one more listen. You will hear these songs like you've never heard them before. And if you want to watch one song, you can do so on YouTube while you're there, please like and subscribe. So D'Alor, when was the first time you heard painted black? Honestly, my first memory of this song is hearing it as the opening theme to the CDS show Tour of Duty. It was a show about these soldiers in Vietnam and why, at my age, I was watching Tour of Duty. I'm not sure. Okay. Yeah. You know, it's just like, you know, the TV was on. Right. The choices were like Donald Duck, whatever it was. It was probably, you know, Tour of Duty, moon lighting, I think moon lighting was a repeat that night. You were a moon lighting fan. I was a huge moon lighting fan. Come on, Algebrao. I'm that show. Yeah. I'm fly about. Making you wet. What is the theme song? So fly by D. Oh, yeah. Moonlight in straight. Because we met on the way. Great. Great song. We're not even talking about moon lighting by Algebrao. We're here talking about painted black by the Rolling Stones. And look, that show was about soldiers in Vietnam. The song was also famously used by Stanley Kubrick and Full Metal Jacket. For me, I've always just used this song as a shorthand for both the Vietnam War and just the baby Boomer generation in general, you know, like they were having a full on retro moment in the 80s. I admit, I'm not the biggest Stones fan. Like, I feel like the Stones, I appreciate the Stones the way I appreciate a night of hard drinking. It's like a great idea at 1030 p.m. In theory. Yeah. Not 1030. You're like, oh man, the Stones. It can't wait. Morning at 8 a.m. You're like, ah, why did I listen to so much Rolling Stones last night? Interesting. There is something a little heavy about this band. There's a heaviness to it. I don't know if it's heavy. I'm using Cality, the songwriting, and the story. No, that's true. I could see that. But I also think that as much as I like them, I like, there's always something, and this is just, I don't know if I can put my figure out. There's always something that feels a little bit like dirty. Because some of their materials just so raunchy, but it's just not the kind of music I can see waking up to. And really being about my day. I wonder, it's so interesting you're saying this, because we grew up in an era where the Beatles versus the Stones was just like already in the culture, unquestioned, right? And the Beatles are like my hope. They're like me on my best day, to a certain extent they represent hope. Whereas the Stones are just like, ah, man, everything sucks, man. But there's some truth to that. They're not dismissing that, but there's also a lot of cultural positioning. We had like the, they had the Beatles had their haircuts and the suits and the jokingness and the cuteness. You can go to work looking like the Beatles. You're right. I'm sure they're working looking like Keith Richards. Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr. You're the first person to downsize. Right. No, but there's, I think that there's some of that is maybe in the music, but some of that is just like how it was positioned to us growing up, because that was always the rivalry. We knew had existed. Right. Decades earlier. And there's a reason for that. I mean, I think Andrew Lugold, who's famously the Stones' manager, and ostensibly the producer of this record. But actually, I don't think he touched a single knob or dial. But he was an impressario in sort of the true sense of the Brian Epstein Malcolm McLaren Colonel Parker School of Managers who really shaped the image of their bands, right? So, I think he doubled down on, let's be the opposite of the Beatles. I think there was a sense of like, you guys already have this great and kind of scrapping this to you. Let's double down on that. So, there's a little bit of that happening with our Beatles versus Stones, and the Stones are the scrappy, you know, dark ones. Yeah. But there's also songs like this that demonstrate that there's a genuine darkness to who they were. That's a fair point. For you, Luxury. What was the first time you heard this song? I mean, it certainly would have been my dad's record collection, he would have had all of the Beatles and Stones records. So, I would have grown up listening to them side by side probably before having some awareness of this cultural thing we were just talking about. Yeah. So, to me, it was just like old music, your dad listened to. But obviously, the songs are culturally such a big part of the culture, like you hear, not just give me shelter, but also sympathy for the devil and satisfaction and paint it black. And under my thumb, these are all starting up for Microsoft 95. That's what I mean. Oh my God. They were a little bit to my mind, one of the first groups to just go full on corporate and be like, you know what? We can charge a thousand bucks for box seats or whatever it is. Let's do it. Let's do it. You want the platinum booth. Right. Let's do a deal with Microsoft to your point. Let me think of it for millions of dollars to use our song. And this was counter to like this earlier idea, like the Neil Young not selling out Bruce Rooster, Steve. Or on a pro's episode where he was like, we don't want but why? Right. Or all of punk rock. There's this sort of idea that like, you don't do that if you're a true artist or musician. So, those are like, screw it. It makes like, I went to London School of Economics to like, you know, you forget about that. You know, he's like a, he's a very savvy guy who seems like he's like, hey, what if we take all these like wonderful like blues songs and take that, but we merge it with sort of like London swing and London youth culture. Absolutely. I think connecting it back to the song. I think there's a deep cynicism in Mick Jagger. He's kind of a cipher. He's kind of a mysterious figure. He gives interviews and such. But you don't really ever feel like you're getting something super deeply real about him. Yeah. I think he's very calculated. He's obviously very smart. He's a great performer, a great songwriter. I'm a fan of the work he does. And I also think you're just not really getting a lot of revelatory stuff. I think his artist versus commerce, brain, there's a tension there. There isn't there isn't. I feel like it's more actually, he's actually resolved, it's more resolved than most. I think it's more resolved than most is that he's not keeping up with me. I think Kurt Cobain really wrestled with it and I think Mick Jagger didn't wrestle with it as much. He's like, Hey, little slapbox, okay, we're cool. You know, it's so funny because I have my attention with the stoses that like I really do, the part of me that loves the British music of the mid and late 60s, love songs like give me shelter. And I actually really like their late 70s output. Yeah. Yeah. The old stuff is great. They aged with their audience. So by like the 70s, late 70s, they're in New York, New York is grimy and gritty. You know, they release one of the best albums of all time, some girls, you know, that's just a great album. Black and blue is another one, right? Yeah. releasing some of their biggest hits through this period like Miss You, the old disco classic. Love that one. There's another disco song out of that period that I love a lot emotional rescue. Oh my god, it's such a great tune. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's straight up disco. That might be like one of the greater disco songs. It's a great song. Yeah, yeah. And I would say my absolute favorite song out of this period to me it really captures that gross, gritty but super artistic and cool New York of the late 70s is this song and I know it's her favorite yours. Let's hear a little snippet of the song shattered. So do be. I can't not picture him in that like kind of like pink you know leotard. There's like a bunch of songs from that era where like it's like I think they might sort of shot them all on the same day because of the same sounds. To me, what I hear, you know, just because I worked in the 30-round building and I know how close he was and he is to like Lauren and just Saturday Night Live in general. Like to me, I just I've been at those like post Saturday night live, the post post party after party. They're so fun and it's just you feel like you're at the Algonquin realm table. You know, there's so many people from so many walks of life, you know, comedians, musicians, Lauren just holding, you know, court so to speak and and and he was there when the cast was young and Lauren was young, it just it evokes a ton. You're right. It's such a New York feeling. It's so funny. Like the the Rolling Stones 70s output definitely makes me think of New York and one of the great New York bands of the time, even though they're of course not from anywhere near New York. They're not from New York, but their music actually expresses the great and grime and glitter of that moment. Yeah, I would agree. And also, I feel like they're a band that's absorbing what's in New York at that time because like that song could have been in Maxus Kansas City. Yeah, totally. It captures a time. Yeah, but I would be remiss if I didn't say that this is a band that I do have a loving-hate relationship. Look, they came out with a song that is a boring catchy, but a boring brown sugar, not a cool song. I don't feel like playing it right now, but you know, like I think I read where the band felt like they were trying to do a song about the horrors of sexual assault and all this stuff during slavery. It didn't come out that way. Yeah, Maxus Kansas himself from Brown Sugar is early as 1995, which is to his credit 31 years ago. He says, I don't know what I was on when I came up with this song. And I don't know if that's him trying to like walk it back or whatever, but like I'm going to try and give him the benefit of the doubt just so that it's not like a essentially an essay fantasy song, but they were still performing it regularly for 50 years. Like they literally performed it from 1971 when it came out until October 2021. And it's like, really guys, and so to be there's always that side of the stones, too, that I I still grapple with a lot of catchy tunes. Obviously, these guys were lovers of black music and black culture enough to play a major part in disseminating it across the globe, but they also lack to a certain degree. Some of the I would say polish and politics of the Beatles when I hear the Beatles, like I feel like they just come across differently. They come across as the kind of guys who are like, yeah, we really appreciate this music and it's cool to us. There is a little bit more of I'm going to make up a word here. A little bit more a feel of exploitiness when it comes to the stones, you know, that I don't get from the Beatles or a lot of other rock groups for for that matter. So there is a little bit of attention. I still get the sense that like at the end of the day, Mick and Keith saw this as their 1960s party boy music. Yeah. In ways that I don't get from other bands. And so that's that's the tension that I feel. I can already hear you guys charging up your laptops to come at me in the comments. Some of our listeners, but that's I feel you have such a valid opinion and take on this that everything you said is is it has its own self-contained integrity and I'm not going to counter any of it. The only thing I will say just thinking about like, yeah, I think that there is a risk that artists take and sometimes the risk pays off and sometimes it's just too layered and tangled of a topic to like accurately convey what you're trying to convey without lots of footnotes and like interview explanations. And maybe that's a moment where the song needs to be reassessed. Maybe the way you've done it is perfectly put. One last thing I'll say is like the added irony to your point that it is coming on not just the co-tails of black music, but like using like they're doing more R&B and blues than the Beatles ever did. Paul, the rocken regime calls them a blues cover band. The rock they were originally a blues covers band up until this record. So the idea of sort of blending this tradition which is not theirs with these lyrics, which are very speculative, but also super exoticized. And one last point about the exodestization, they are British. So their understanding and absorption of like the story of slavery in American music is like one step removed. It does not excuse them at all, but they are coming at it with like many layers of sort of distance from what the story is like on the ground in America of slavery and black music. And there's perhaps some like Nea Vite, which he in later years as he grew up and understood what it meant to Americans and to black Americans may have changed his tune as a result of it. You might be giving him a little too much credit because in the same article Keith is like, I don't know why we're getting shit for this song. Well, okay. So you know, he's not quite walking back. Look, I'll just say this. I think when it comes to being the purveyors of a certain type of toxic masculinity, their whole catalog from I can't get no satisfaction through Brown sugar. Yeah. Through so much stuff like they're being honest about how they feel. I think just, you know, now that we have a few more voices at the table, we understand that not all this stuff is cool. No, that's perfectly, but I think one of the ironies about this band is sensibly being rebellious, rock and rollers is they don't represent rebellion in the truest sense. They are centered miles with money. Like totally. Like you could claim this is obvious over palace, but at the end of the day, like, you're kind of the one group that gets away with the last step. When the most powerful, like, you know, kind of, you know, group of individuals are saying that they have grievance. And like, it sounds like another category in this day and age. It's like, I'm not here to criminalize how, how angsty team boys feel because I was one once. Yeah. But I also know that some of that stuff that I felt as a male, because that is the group of, I have male privilege. Yeah. Some of that stuff wasn't okay. And I, and I can see that now looking back several decades later. So those are one of those huge groups. They're like blowing up huge in the 60s. But by the time they get to recording painted black, there were internal tensions in the group brewing between Keith Richards, Mick Jagger and Brian Jones. Brian, who had found the group and was kind of the de facto leader of the group in the early years, found, you know, he was becoming kind of the odd man out as Mick and Keith start basically joining forces and becoming a songwriting duo. That's right. Brian Jones legendarily kind of the heart and soul of the band. And that includes the love of the blues and R&B like he was already dissatisfied with the direction the band was going with the song satisfaction, which he famously, unfortunately, there's a footage of this. If anyone has some out there, I did a deep dive, but he would play during satisfaction live, he would play the melody to pop out the sailor man as just a prank. He said he hated the song. He hated the poppiness. He hated the kind of reaching. Yeah. So there's a lot of tension that was brewing already within the descent coming from Brian's specifically, I should say, about the success of the band that was starting to happen. And he wasn't a songwriter. So he didn't have a lot of power. Andrew Luke Olden, the manager of the band, the Umprasario, famously goes to at a party, I believe, went to Mick and Keith and said, if you start writing songs, you'll make more money. Because that was sort of new information like publishing was not something to this day. It's still complicated. But when they realized that that was an avenue to make even more money and Mick and Keith, by the way, should be said, were already childhood friends. They already had this bond going back a decade and a half if they were longer. So the two of them were already a tightly knit duo, became even more strengthened by their songwriting, you know, prowess and success. And Brian frankly was not doing well in terms of his mental health. He was drinking. He was drugging. And there was a lot of tension brewing between the two. And Brian didn't have nearly the power that the duo, the glimmer twins of Mick and Keith were starting to have. So he became even increasingly sidelined, which made him spin sort of flywheel into more. And it sped up his, his, his own demons. And it should be said that Anita Palinberg, another sort of unsung hero, perhaps, at this episode was a huge influence, kind of like Casey Necoly with Perry Farrell and James Addiction, this romantic relationship he was in. A lot of credit should go to Anita Palinberg for a lot of what makes Brian Jones cool. She introduced him to a lot of sophisticated like people and art and, you know, places. So Brian and the two of them became this sort of like cohesive entity that didn't help his case within the band. So by the time this song rolls around, we'll be talking about it once we get into the stems, but his contributions apparently include the main melody line that he played on Cittar. Oh wow. But once we get to the stems, we'll find out how that was treated in terms of fairness and financial. When we get to the comments. Yeah, it always comes down to the splits. Yeah, I didn't know that much about Brian Jones coming into this episode. You have taught me a lot. I know that I know the quest love is actually a big Brian Jones fan just because what he brought to the group and this guy, he plays so many instruments. He plays the Marimba. He plays the Cittar, the saxophone, the melaton. One of the songs he plays the Marimba on is under my thumb. Let's hear a little bit of under my thumb. He's the melody guy. He is. He's the Roy Ayers of under my thumb. Exactly. Uh, vibes in Marimba. Yeah, that's a kind of kind of similar space. Yeah, that is one of the sounds that makes that song. And when you hear that, you know what you're listening to. Brian had an interest in how can we make this R&B a little bit sound a little bit different, a little bit unique, but not too different like satisfaction because that's just too poppy. So he had this lane that was very interesting. He had a very, he was very, he was an influencer. He's a tastemaker. There's a sort of sense of because it should also be said that Mick and Keith famously at the time were not very sophisticated. They were not very worldly in this moment. They became extremely sophisticated worldly later. Totally. But in this moment, Brian is kind of the cool guy in the band. All right, we're going to take a quick break. But when we get back, we're going to go inside the song, paint it black. And we're going to discover was this song influenced by one Turkish song, one surf rock song, or one supreme song that we'll make that decision when we get back. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible, all-day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue. Just plump, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Maybe it's Maybelline. All right, welcome back to one song. Let's get into the stems. So just a little caveat in this episode. This record was recorded on a four track. So there's a lot of blend in the stems. There were a lot of bounces. There isn't anything that exists canonically, which is just all of the isolated parts. There's about a dozen instrument layers, possibly more. But they've been blended by bouncing over time. But those are pretty exciting to listen to. We're going to be hearing a lot of that. And then I'll do occasionally a little AI breakdown, a little DIY, doing my best with EQ and panning to kind of get it a little bit closer. But that's what you'll be hearing on today's episode. Still super exciting way to hear things. And there's a lot that I discovered that I'd never noticed before. Let's just jump into it. Here are the drums, percussion, and some vocals mixed together. Let's listen. So that's Charlie Watson, drums, obviously. We're going to be talking more about that interesting organ park, because that was one of the discoveries. I mean, it's now that I listen to it. It's like, oh, it's right there. But there's a really cool story behind that. And of course, Mick Jagger on vocals. I think there's an organ on there. Yeah, we're going to talk about the organ. Was there an organ on that? It's almost subliminal, right? Okay. It's because it's so rhythmic and it's so repetitive that it kind of, this ostinato is just seems built into the song. But it's a key part of the song's story. We're going to talk about it in just a moment. Here's a little bit of isolation on the drums. As I mentioned before, this was baked into the mix. So I tried to extract it the best I could to just hear Charlie Watts. And it should be noted that he's playing not just the snare drum, but there's also castonettes and maracas in there. So we're starting to get some of the exhaustive. Yeah, definitely have some experimentation there. Yeah, it's more than just a snare. Right. Any of the evokes, it's starting to also evoke just in this drum layer, some of the exoticness that I alluded to in my long, you know, descriptive sentence about what kind of song this was. Absolutely. Some of the Middle Eastern, perhaps. Absolutely. It's right. It's a very infinite sleigh influence of the maracas. When we were talking about it earlier, we were talking about the fact that I feel like there should be belly dancing going on. Totally. And it's just in the percussion layer. We're already getting that. Absolutely. Way till we get to the other layers. So this is another moment where you'll hear mix singing. But listen to the drums in the background. I've never noticed it. That sounds like, I think it's a tambourine. He's shaken really quickly. I could not foresee this thing happening to you. If I look hard enough into this. It's really interesting to point out this is indicative. Like this is a relic of an era. Because in 1966, it was normal that you would be bouncing tracks. And just a reminder, go back to our Jimmy Hendrix episode, which was recorded in 1967. That our episode about Jimmy Hendrix, for these recordings were. Yeah, we did it two part. And it's another example of how once part of the artifact of the stems is reminding us that in an earlier era, when we didn't have pro tools and digital and infinite track counts for that matter, to say nothing of the 16 tracks and 24 tracks plus that were to come, you had to do some creative mixing techniques. You had to record on the four tracks and then bounce three of the tracks onto one to free up the other three, which meant that they were baked in forever. And you couldn't change them. And the sound quality got reduced the more you did it. What we're hearing is an example of that. This is an old way of recording that just doesn't exist anymore, unless you're doing analog recording, which some people still do. So it's interesting to hear it and be reminded, oh, yeah, we didn't used to have infinite track count. It's the opposite of Steely Dan. I think it's safe to say, like every time you hear this song, it always sounds sort of cavernous and grainy like an older recording. Because it is. It's an older recording. Exactly. Or go back to our Britney Spears episode, where there's literally a hundred tracks of vocals. That was one of the hardest episodes for me to prepare for, because going, I couldn't go through all of them. I had to be selective. But in modern recording, you can have a hundred tracks of vocals because it's available and it's free. Just one more thing to point out about this song as we go through the stems. It's an unusual structure in that it's not really kind of your traditional introverse chorus, verse chorus, bridge, chorus, outro kind of thing. It's really just two sections A and B that go back and forth six times. So there's like eight bars of what we're going to call on this show, the verse. The verse. But it actually has the title in it, blah, blah, blah, blah, something painted black, or the word black is at the end. Totally. But the lyrics change all six times. It's a little more akin to a song like Lil Wayne's Emile, where the chorus is sort of laced throughout instead of stopping the verse and going to a chorus. That's right. So you could call it a, we're going to call it the verse for the sake, for the purposes of the song. Yeah. That I see a red door, but then we switch to a second section, another, a different eight bars musically, which we'll call the chorus. I'm going to just call attention to one more thing we've been talking about the exotic layers of the song and the conscious effort to kind of bring in things beyond the blues to break out of this like just R&B blues tradition they'd started with. And another sort of illusion, I think. This is something I hear is I hear an illusion to rebel to Bolero in this section, particular. So listen for something similar to that rhythmic motif that happens towards the end of the song. Here's just a moment. This is Revelle's Bolero from 1928, which is just 38 years before this song. So it's not like an old classical tune. It's something that might have been familiar recently to them. That's one of those songs that I feel like everybody's heard, but you don't always know who created it and what the name of it is. Exactly. So now that you've heard Revelle 1938 Bolero, I think that Charlie Watts and Company are doing a bit of an illusion to that when we get to this section towards the end. I think they're just having fun with that throwing it in there. So I read that bassist Bill Wyman, so they're really experimental on this song. He gets down on the floor and he starts beating the Hammond organ pedals with his fists. Exactly. Like I don't know what causes the person to do that. Maybe he's being creative. Maybe he was high. Maybe he's a combination of both. But luxury, can we hear the organ? I don't give that to you in context, right? But I kind of want to slow that down, Michael Jackson, Quincy Jones style, and see if there's a fun song there. And I'll play it in context because again, this was the number one thing I hadn't noticed until I got into studying the stems. Will you humor me? Is there a way to play that just that isolated organ? Slow. Like, can you change the BPM on it? Sure. Is there a way to slow it down to like 120? This is straight up, that straight up rock steady now. Yeah, yeah, I can totally see rock steady too. That's straight up to me here. Straight up to me here. Don't do it. You might get a letter from Alan Klein. Look up the verb. Real quick, I also want to say that I find that isolated organ interesting because like this song is talking about a guy who's feeling down, you know, like he's sad. And yet the tempo is furiously fast. So that part had them relicking with laughter because it evoked to all of them sort of a like bar mitzvah kind of vibe. As Mick Jagger put it, if you've been at the session, it was like one big joke. We put Bill on piano and he plays this funny be-ging-be-ging-be-ging-be-ging-be-ging. So today it was really funny and they were like, wait a second, it's funny, but it actually kind of works too. So he tries to play that on the organ with his feet because it's the foot pedals that you're hearing. It's the base of the organ. But the pedals were sticking. So he had to get down on the ground on his stomach and actually play them by pounding his fists on the foot pedals to get that sound. And that's what we're hearing. That's Bill Lyman, the bass player, playing the organ with his fists on the ground. And the same part is also played on the piano. We think by Jack Nietzsche and you'll hear the actual part really clearly here. The very bar mitzvah-ee-sounding thing. It's almost like a polka. It does sound like Avina Gila. It sounds like Havai and Gila are polka. Or maybe it's even like scots. Another kind of like Jamaican kind of. That weird connection. Exactly. The guitars to me make this song. And I'm such a big bass guy. But I barely even heard those bass parts before today. So can you let us know what the guitars are doing on this song? You're about to hear five or six instruments played by Keith Richards and Brian Jones. Definitely an electric guitar, acoustic guitar. And you'll even hear a sitar in there. There's a sitar in there. Sitar in there, right? I had questions that there was a sitar in here. Let's hear it and I got something to say. [Music] It's so interesting. You know, I- I never heard those sitars before. It felt like it's on the needed sitars. It had a sitar appeal, but I don't think that I actually heard the sitars play. I've only heard the guitars. - Well, let's see if we can hear it even more explicitly. Again, I'm trying to break down within this baked track. So it'll be a little bit washy sound here. But here's a little bit of my DIY guitar, and then I'll add the sitar in. (upbeat music) You can definitely hear the acoustic in there. (upbeat music) And I'll add the sitar now. (upbeat music) - It's that most treble-y thing on top. - Yeah. - Now I hear it now. - You hear it now, yeah. - Absolutely. Now I do feel like we're on that, you know, that jaunt over to India with George Harrison and all the guys. - Yeah, I'm glad you brought up George Harrison. Let's talk a little about about this sitar part. This sitar has an instrument just briefly. It's 18 to 21 strings. Only six or seven of which play at the melody like a guitar would, but the rest are just sympathetic strings that add to that drony quality that you hear. That gives it sort of an ethereal to our ears, at least, in the West. - A mystic. - Yeah, yeah. It has a lot of associations with mysticness, of course, because of it's other music. - Here's what, yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. - Because of Ravi Shankar and all the reasons we would have been hearing that instrument in the West to begin with. So Brian Jones, who is an unsung hero of this episode. - Very much. - He's been discussing. Apparently, he heard, by his own telling, he was a big Beatles fan. And he definitely heard it in this song in front of the Beatles in 1965. And it made a big impression on him. This is Norwegian Wood from Rubber Soul. (upbeat music) - I love Norwegian Wood. It's such a wonderful, cool Beatles song of a rubber soul. And can I just also say that I'm realizing now, to a certain extent, the sitar sounds like, it sounds like an Indian ukulele. It's got like that pluckiness, it just feels very troubling. - Yeah, the register that it can reach his way up there. - It has a sustained quality to it. So those notes really, they ring out because you're hearing the sympathetic strings ringing throughout the whole thing. So that's part of the quality that they bring to it. That is unique or at least certainly wasn't in rock and roll at the time until George Harrison brings it into rock and roll with Norwegian Wood. And now we sort of take for granted, adding influences outside of pop music and rock sounds. This was kind of a new idea at the time in Brian Jones caught into it tremendously. He loved it. - Can I just admit, I just love instruments with texture. I think that's why I like the Hammons. That's why I like the 808 bass sound that hip hop uses. I like it when something can, when a note can sustain, but then also feel like it's like got a texture to it. That's probably the best way I could put it. - It's very important just to point out that in this moment 1965 into 1966, that is the texture of changes are being added to this rock and roll into this R&B bass music, both by the Beatles and the Stones, but also the Kinks are doing it, you know, the Yard Birds. There's other bands that are looking to just have new interesting sounds. And of course Hendrix is about to start doing it too. One more thing I want to point out is that initial strum, I'll play it for you, and then I'll tell you some of my thoughts about where it might have come from. (upbeat music) So those strums, burr, one, two, and three and four. One is on the end of four, I think, into the next note. Those strums, to me, are very evocative of some surf rock stuff. - I can totally see that, for this. - I was gonna say like Old Western movies. - Yeah, it has that-- - It's really just got Eastern influences and Old Western slash surf movie in it as well. - Absolutely, and there is a spaghetti western into surf rock in action as well. Dick Dale will be talking about him in just a moment, but that chord strum in particular reminds me of this song, "This is Pipeline" by the Chantes from 1963, which was a hit in the UK, surf rock from the OC. - Holy smokes. The whole song though, hold on, think about this, this tempo. - Yeah. - Don't do it, don't do it. - That bass line. - That's what Bill Wymon is doing, something very similar, but get it. - Yes, yes, no, this, I think this, I totally agree. I never thought of this song, which I've heard before. Can I just say, surf rock is maddening, 'cause you'll go up to the record store, you'll be like, hey, do you have this song that goes, "No lyrics, that is from middle, that is from middle." - That's right, they're all instruments. - They're all instruments, all the ventures, all those bands, exactly. - That one commercial for the instrumental compilation saved by life, because I was like, oh, these are all the songs that don't have words. Now I can finally know who sings what. - I love surf rock. - Yes, this, yeah. - What's the surf rock song you're saying? - That's Pipeline by the Chantes. The ventures did it famously a few years later, but this version was actually pretty big hit in the day. - And it sounds way more like paint in black. - Look, we're not saying anybody copied anybody, but that sounds way more like painted black that I would've ever connected if you hadn't played them back to back. - They feel very likely influences with Norwegian wood along with Bolero. And by the way, this song has moments and little bits and pieces of some of the bits and pieces of those songs, but it sounds nothing like it holistically as the song, obviously. - No, that's really cool, great connection. - Nice one. - We were talking earlier about the structure of the song, and I think the structure of the song is really interesting because it's one of those weird songs where it's sort of like, you've got this one part and you've got another part and it just kind of goes back and forth the whole song. - That's right. - I'm going to point out the first song that comes to mind and sort of like that for me is Music Sounds Better with You By Start Us. It kind of does one thing and then it goes to another thing and then it goes back and forth and back of it. This is another song that just goes back and forth between two things. - That's right. - Let's talk about that other thing that it does, which is when it kind of, correct me if I'm wrong, does it kind of go major? Like I feel like after introducing us to the East as these Western listeners, then it kind of goes to more of a traditional (humming) - Yeah, the chord changes in this other section go, one, seven, three, seven. And then it changes, one, seven, three, seven, four, five. - Yeah. - I didn't quite sing it right. But the chord changes in this section give us a nice contrast to loop us back to that A section. - Yeah. - And it's satisfying every time. - And correct me if I'm wrong. It is less Eastern sounding and it is more just traditional sort of like, drivey rock music. - It connects more to the blues by those chord changes I would say 'cause we get that four or five, the sub dominant back to the dominant, back to the one. - Can we hear a little bit of it? - Let's do it. Here it is in the guitar part. (upbeat music) - And this sound is a little different. One, seven, three, seven, four, five. - Now we got to go back to the one. And then we're back into the tension. It's like the tension, the reason. - The tension in the release. - Yeah. - Love it. - It's great songwriting and these guys are learning how to write songs in this moment. This is the first record where it's all original compositions and not a hodgepodge of covers, a handful of originals. This is all original on aftermath. - But Jones is bringing what he brings to the song. - He's bringing what he brings to the song and is he in the songwriting credits? We'll find out if there is. - We'll talk about the splits. So this song has a very mystic old world feel to it. Make himself describe painted black as a Turkish influence song. But some people have gone so far as to say it was influenced by one specific Turkish song by Erkin Kurey from 1966. Check this out. (upbeat music) Let that ride, let that ride. ♪ You raise your heart ♪ ♪ Come listen to me ♪ - What the fuck? - I don't know, man. - I just break this down. This show is for handsome T. - This is one song. - I'm gonna say handsome T. - This is one song and you got the all-own luxury. So we're gonna talk about this. We're gonna break it down. And we're gonna talk about whether it's an interpolation or if it's an evocation combination. - Okay. - Because in my humble opinion, I think it might be the latter. But let's talk about it. - Who is Erkin Kurey? His name sounds like an anagram. It sounds like somebody who's like. - This is Turkish Anatolian rock from We Think 1966. Now here's the thing. On Discogs, this record shows up as being first released in 1966, which is the same year as Pain to Black. So it might be fair to say that we can never know for certain which record was released first and might have heard the other one first. - I will say, it reminds me of Rod Stewart in that song that he might have picked up in South America. The laws were a lot different back then. If you feel like, just get away with. - I feel like these British rockers, they were traveling. - No one's ever gonna hear this song. - They're like, yeah, you're never gonna. There's never gonna be a website, whatever that is. It's gonna compile all these things. If people are gonna be able to play them, they're like, "Oh, shit." Fair point, but let me point something out to you. First of all, we're gonna break this down. Why does it sound familiar? Well, some of the instrumentation, some of the tempo, some of the rhythm, and then what about those notes? - Those notes. - I'm gonna play on my very not-sitar sounding VST plug-in of a sitar. - What would it sound like on there? - Stop. (guitar music) - Sorry, sorry. I love, like, we got a sitar in the room. Hey, man, burn that in, sis, brother. I'm high off the knock chamba. All right. (laughs) Sounds just like a sitar. (laughs) - It's a sitar in. - Ravi, Ravi, Robyn. - It's like, what do they call. - Rhino, Republican and Namely. It's Sino. - Sitar and Namely. (guitar music) - As I know. - There are actually only four notes that are the same, which is four notes that are the same. You're gonna find millions of times across music. (guitar music) It's not the same rhythm. And importantly, it's not the same key. Now, let's talk for a second about the key, because that's a big part of what gives pain at black is Eastern Flare, it's character, right? This is in diatonic scales. This is minor or A-olean. (guitar music) Woof! twisted scale. Paint it black however is a little different there are two notes that are different. There's a flatted sixth and a raised or sharp seven. I'll play it for you and you'll hear the difference I think right away at the top of the scale. So far the same. So far the same. This note's a little different. So the big change happens because we actually have a minor third at the end of that scale. Usually our diatonic scales are all half steps and whole steps. Yeah. This one skips three half steps at the end. I'll play it again. You can't you make your face move. It's like it's like eating a lemon but it feels so good. It feels so good. It's harmonic minor. It's called harmonic minor because once you get to that seventh you really want to get back to the one. It's begging you to go to the one. Usually in the blues and in regular you know regular minor seven. It's a flat seventh which sounds like and the song we just played the Turkish rock song is using that flat seventh and that's a big deal because painted black is that's the note that we're like oh this is slightly outside of the canon of pop. Yes this is outside of the canon of blues and R&B. This really makes me want to go find Erkin Coray which he might have some other he might have some other hits man. I mean like that was that was some good stuff. But listen I will say this here's the song that I think is a little more similar from 1965. So this one definitely came before painted black. This is the Supremes. My world is empty without you babe that's compare that just because our ears have forgotten about it to paint a black potentially. And I'll just make the comparison explicit again. So bring out that sitar moment. Bring out that sitar. Guys I'm I'm I'm not really sitting here holding a sitar. I know it sounds like it. Again a key part of that is that major seventh that makes it harmonic minor. But anyway here is my world is empty without you babe again same first four notes from 1965. How many notes are the same? That's seven notes isn't it? Okay so this one has seven notes of that are the same. This one starts off like the stones but it doesn't it doesn't continue along that path quite like my man Erkin Coray. It doesn't have the similarities of tempo and instrumentation and even the fact of the vocal line being sung to the instrument part doubling it isn't happening in the Supremes but the notes are actually kind of more similar. I agree. It's almost like it's almost like a postmodern mashup of like everything the Keith and Mick were probably into at the time which you can imagine where the supreme this random song they heard from a Turkish artist like it's a lot of things all at once. Now we come to the vocals and I want to talk to you about the lyrics because to me I had always associated the song with a Vietnam war that was pretty much my interpret I was like this is a song that's about you know guys on helicopters flying over jungles right and now that I hear it and I've looked at the lyrics it's it's you know it seems to be quite clearly about a guy who's attending the funeral of the woman that he loved you know I didn't know that the Anglican Church painted their doors red and so he once he sees that door and he wants to paint it black and he sees you know girls in the street but he has no sex drive today because he wants to paint their summer dresses black. I think that's interesting because it reminds me of the doors saw people are strange where it's like people are strange when your strangers you know streets are uneven when you're alone you know like it's just this idea that like you can just be in this mood and in this funk and it just paints everything yeah you know this is really dark color and I feel like and pop music like you know although there's R&B and blues influences to say the least that's understating it in Rolling Stones music and those are traditions that have darkness in their lyrics pop music and the Beatles the Beatles weren't singing about this stuff the kinks were starting to the Beatles were a little bit later would get into it yeah but in 65 66 this is a happy time yeah I mean there's a lot of happy songs at that time but the stones were angst written they were like an early this is sort of a goth moment for them and there's like a darkness to them there's part of why the Beatles stones divide which is a little bit you know overly maybe stated as like us versus them like sure they had more similarities than differences all this to say there is more darkness in their music and this is maybe the prime example of how this sort of personal expression of angst is newly in pop music at the time let's hear a little bit of mix isolated vocals I see a line of cars and they're all painted black with flowers and my love both never to come back you can almost imagine you know a 20 year old you know singing these lyrics into a microphone which is what I always try to do we always try to like take away like professional and just hear what is essentially one or two people just say the vulnerability of actually stepping up to the microphone and being a human singing this song which we do on this podcast every episode so vulnerable when they people isolate our vocals won't be like I think they've heard enough of us frankly let's face it and again just to point out that that melody line same as the Cittar D D D D D D D with the raised seventh right the sharp seven that just that one single half step in the scale is really why we're evoking not just the Middle Eastern the Turkish but it's also like the Arabic the flamenco it also connects to like neoclassical metal like when you hear like inglay molmstein or even Randy Rhodes like some of the stuff they were doing was just their scale selection often included that one single note you know from song to song it varies but that's what makes it sound that's what makes a metal sound Eastern or classical or just exotic in general so it's interesting just to really call attention to that one half step difference in the scale that's being used can evoke so much globally and historically can you play you know that that that part where he talks about the girls going by summer clothes I see the girls walk by dressed in this summer clothes I have to turn my head until my darkness goes who's harmonizing with them there so the credits have Keith Richard as being a harmony vocal I don't think it's there that sounds like Mick to me but it might be I think it's double mix I think it's a double track but I can't be sure to my ear that sounds like Mick doing the harmony but it might be Keith we definitely know for that the sake of why his name is listed in the liner notes as a harmony vocal towards the end all the humming yeah feels like maybe you know that's I think that's certainly gonna involve other members of the band who are maybe more note challenged with which Keith famously has a wonderful singing voice but he's not he's no Mick let's put it that way in terms of hitting the notes melodically speaking you mentioned the hooms let's hear the hooms because there's a lot going on there that's right so in the sixth repeat we replace same melody but now it's just replete replaced with humming for the last minute of the song and it kind of echoes what the guitar was doing it can it's the same melody line exactly right they almost sound ironic I think so too I hear them imitating the sitar because the shape of the notes on the sitar it's a little bit more we're getting in between the notes it's a little more microtonal yeah which is part of why it sounds so unique and an exciting sounding and they're doing it too with a they're kind of wobbling around the notes giving it a little space it's not directly hitting each pitch yeah you know specifically and going to the next pitch they're going in between the notes but I hear a little bit of a smirk to a little bit of if it's not quite sarcasm it's that same humorous mindset of the bee jeeping jeeping yeah this whole session is joyfully and a little bit funny yeah and it's got that kind of polka vibe and it's double time to it's kind of like Havana Gila right there's a little bit of that going on with yes there's a playfulness all right luxury now that we've heard the song tell us how the splits break down all right well according to the public records this song is 50 50 the glimmer twins that's right 50% Mick 50% Keith 0% anybody else and part of why this is important is because in this moment I feel why I'm in play two different instruments 100% and as we alluded to earlier in the episode this is a moment of shifting of power within the group right but it's not just Mick and Keith versus Brian it's a little bit Mick and Keith versus everybody because prior to this moment on earlier records they would either be doing covers or you may notice fans of the band know this that sometimes you'll see nonker fell as the songwriting credit yeah which was a pseudonym for the entire band basically for them to avoid having to track down either for public domain stuff or for stuff that was questionably of the way of hiding there's a little bit their way of hiding that they were sort of taking credit for somebody else's work or for public domain work that had no no authorship yeah but that nonker fellge entity was a way that everyone got a little bit of the publishing royalty so Bill Wyman the bass player famously says that look paint a black was a collective effort and it should have been credited to nonker fellge but they stopped using that and they started going you know what? It's just the two of us. And because they had their manager, Andrew Luke Oldam on their side, they were able to get away with basically taking credit, not unlike the London McCartney situation. I was going to say it's a little bit like Maclin. Right. And you would see that in some credits. But, uh, oh, man, I feel bad for the other guys in the group. Yeah. It probably would have been more fair to cut and definitely build alignment based on the stories we were detailing. Totally. It seems as though the Cittar melody may have come from Brian Jim himself. Yeah. Not just the Cittar choice, but also the melody itself. Yeah. And the other band members were used to kind of being more collective. But in this moment, the collective is starting to become a duo. There you go. All right. So, Deola, what do you think the legacy of paint at black and the Rolling Stones is? For me, there's something to be said about just the stones as longevity. There's one of those songs that has managed to stay around, you know, I don't know that our kids will necessarily, you know, be as exposed to it as much as the boomers start to, to exit. But I definitely think that this is one of those songs that, you know, whether you love the band or hate the band, you can appreciate why the song is so catchy and why it's managed to stick around. I've said for a while, if you go to see the Rolling Stones tonight, because I'm sure they're playing somewhere tonight, you are kind of going to see the songs, but also you're kind of going to see Mick. I mean, like, can I also just say some kind words about Mick? I think that to a certain extent, he is still the definition of a rock star. They had a song come out just 10 years ago, moves like Jagger, you know, like I think it's understood that like he doesn't play instruments, but he gets out there and he does the rooster and he points at people. He's got the moves. And, you know, he's managed to stay kind of looking like a cool version, older version of the old self. Like, to me, the Stones and the song, they speak to creating something that has legs. It speaks to longevity and sort of what we expect from our rock musicians and performers. Absolutely. And to a certain degree, it doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense that these guys are still alive. I know. Knowing all the debauchery that they've been through. I think it's, I think it's just it's genetics. I think that some people can do everything right. And unfortunately, dying their 60s and then some people like he, you know, I get the sense he's going to be around for a very long time. And unfortunately, Brian Jones didn't make it that long. He passed away just two years after the song came out. It's still an unsolved crime. He was found dead in his swimming pool. It's we don't really know what happened to Brian Jones. We know he was walked in and he was in the pool. Well, he was found dead in his pool. There are, there have been lots of investigations and documentaries. There's some theory that the bricklayer may have killed him because he didn't pay him like at his home. And who knows. A lot of tops even say that the bricklayer killed him though, right? Why would a lot of tops, you know, I mean, you're you're you're presuming that a brick was I get him with a brick. If there was a brick in the autopsy, that may be a clue, which maybe no one starts to look into. I just cracked the case, guys, as officially become a true crime podcast. And of course, it's an absolute tragedy. Brian Jones, if not the creative genius behind the entirety of the bands, even existing, certainly a huge creative force through this era in this song. And just his personal demons got to him. And it didn't help that he was iced out of the band. Yeah. That spiral that was created may have contributed to unfortunately his demise. That said, I will say it was a little funny on, you know, the British legal system is so weird. They said that he he death by misadventure. He's such a British sounding dad. That's like a money Python death. It's like the misadventures of Sheriff Lobo or misadventure, right? It's like a whitewashing of like, you know, murder or misadventure. Somehow they found a way to find some comedy. But Brian Jones didn't make it. And he's also, in fact, the first member of the quote unquote 27 club, which would later in the next two years, Hendrix would go to Morrison, would go Janice Joplin and then later on Kurt Cobain and Amy Winehouse all at 27 way too young. But the rest of the band is still kicking a live kick in an on tour. And to me, when I think about that as a musician myself, it's like there's a version of your goals as a musician. There's a version of yourself that's like, gosh, I hope I'm still making music as long as the Rolling Stones are, because that seems like the best case scenario, right? That you're still making music and touring and doing well into your 80s. But the flip side of that, as we talk about this song, "Pain at Black" and we think about the legacy of this band, I'm struck by how it's kind of a deal with the devil to be playing the same song before 60 years. There's something about that that I can't really fathom. In my own version of like performing and playing music, I play dozens and dozens of shows, like maybe a hundred performances. And by, I'm tired of my songs, right? You get a little bit, it's hard to find something in it that you every night are looking forward to like re-examining or re-living. So I don't know how they do it. That feels like though, the flip side of this fame and fortune is like, well, you're up there on stage. Are you going through the motions? Or can you really get back to that emotion that led you to write the songs? I'll say I've seen the Stones perform live, maybe around like 2001. And even that's 25 years ago, I remember that the arrangements were very watered out. That sort of like furious pace, like one for like a painted black. It was like, it was a lot slower. They slowed it down. Yeah, it was a lot slower. It felt a little more like smooth jazz. He had all the high notes. It felt like smooth jazz version of "Pain at Black." I remember that specifically. So it's hard to like give people like the rowdy, raunchy shows. When you're ready? Yeah. At the hip of drum and London, a couple of decades ago. We're like the hip replacement drum. All right. These poor guys, like, I don't have a lot of empathy for the conundrum because obviously the flip side of it is like, it's fame and fortune and everything. But like, that's why I say, deal with the devil. Because on paper, fame and fortune isn't everything in life. There's also like what you spend your time doing. Look, I mean, this is the smallest violin in the world playing for the Rolling Stones, having to perform "Pain at Black" for 60 years. Yeah. But I just find that to be really intriguing. Like, what do you do with your brain? We had Sean Sockman on the show a few weeks ago. And he was talking about how sometimes they're singing, you know, "End of the Road," and he's thinking about the hamburger he's going to get from room service when he gets back after the show. So there's a little bit of that, I think, going on here. You're probably right. Okay, Luxury, it's time for one more song. This is the segment where we share a deep cut or a hidden gem with you, the one song nation, and with each other. Luxury, why don't you go first? All right, so my one more song, one of my favorite bands of all time. We did allude to this singer on another episode. We hopefully someday will do an episode on them. But this is Liz Frazier from "Cocteau Twins." It's Laura Lyre from the Treasure Album, one of my favorite albums in their catalog. I get chills with every syllable, every phoning from this woman's from her voice, from her heart, from her chest, in the ethereal quality. And this record is particularly interesting because they use, I think it's a different drum machine than the other one. So it's got a little more of an industrial sound to it. So it's, treasure is like their most industrial sounding record, but that's just in the drum machine. The rest of it is ethereal vocals from heaven. We have "The Voice of God." Absolutely. We're big cocteau twins, fans here. Absolutely. What about you, Diallo? What is your one more song this week? My one more song in keeping with talking about the stones and shattered and grimy chords. Here's another one that I really like a lot. This is, I always want to call them the "conk," but they were actually just "conk," and this is a song called "Love Attack." You know, it's got that really drivey bass line. Perfect bass line. You can just sort of, you're like, you're in the back of a cab. You're south of Soho. You don't know what's going to happen tonight, but like the night is young. As always, if you have an idea for one more song, you can find us on Instagram, and TikTok, and DMs. You can find me on Instagram @DialloDIA-LLO, and on TikTok @DialloRiddle. And you can find me on Instagram @LUXXURY, and on TikTok @LuxuryXX. And you can follow our podcast on Instagram and TikTok @OneSongPodcast for exclusive content. You can also watch full episodes of OneSong on YouTube. Just search for OneSongPodcast. We'd love it if you'd like to subscribe. Also, be sure to check out the OneSong Spotify playlist for all the songs we discussed in our episodes. You can find the link in our episode description. And if you've made it this far, welcome. You're officially part of the OneSong. Thank you. Oh, thank God you. Share us some love, give us five stars, and leave us a review, and also say this episode to a fellow music fan. It really helps keep this show thriving, Luxury helped me in this episode. I'm producer DJ, songwriter, musicologist, and KCRW DJ every Friday night from 10 PM till midnight. Luxury. And I'm actor writer, director, and sometimes DJ DialloRiddle. And this is OneSong. We'll see you next time. This episode is produced by Melissa Dwayneus, our video editor is Casey Simonson, mixing by Michael Harman and engineering by Eric The Man Hicks. This show is produced by Kevin Hart, Mike Stein, Brian Smiley, and Eric Wilde.