The Relevance of Spirituality in Winemaking

What if you had access to the world's leading minds of the fine wine world and beyond? What if you could pick their brains during three days of intensive workshops? What scenarios would they draft for tomorrow? What solution would they come up with to answer today's biggest challenges? Well welcome to the Yerini live sessions. I am your host, Paul Indicare, Executive Director of A Rini Global and in this series, we share some of the most impactful conversations we had during A Rini Live. Our biannual event bringing together critical thinkers from iconic and forward-thinking fine wine producers to leading academics and business leaders. Come with us as we envision the future of our industry. When we organise events in wine making regions, I always want part of the programme to showcase what makes that region special and explore how this particularity can be seen as an advantage for the future of fine wine. Burgundy is my home. I feel a deep sense of connection with this region that I have found fascinating in many regards. Ask any wine lovers why Burgundy is so special and will likely tell you that it's because of it's thousand years of history that shaped its vitical to an understanding of terror or because of the finesse of the wines or because of the very small production. But there is something more, something less tangible that I feel every time I go back, something that I never felt in all the regions that I had the privilege to visit and that's a great sense of spirituality. And I'm not talking about religion here, although this can come to play too. But when talking to Burgundy and winemakers, I often feel like they have this strong, rooted belief that there is a higher power, something bigger greater than themselves. And with that belief comes a deep sense of purpose and a certain form of l'achieprise as we say in French or maybe letting go in English, that kind of well for low intervention in vitical to an winemaking. That idea of not needing total control over everything because you accept that you don't have to understand everything because you trust in this higher power. Obert de Villene, owner of the Domendo de Romain Quentin, is not only one of the most iconic winemakers of all time, but he is also seen as one of the most spiritual. So I couldn't imagine this conversation without him and I was beyond excited and grateful when he accepted to sit down with me and a small group of international winemakers and personalities during the 2025 edition of A Reunilive, our three day think tank. The conversation you are about to listen to, take place at the Abélie de Saint-Vivant, a Benedictine Abbey and one of the oldest monuments in Burgundy dated back from the 9th century that Obert and his wife Pamela started renovating in 2001. Joining us for this conversation is Ted Lemmon, owner of Littoray in Sonoma and as you will understand from this conversation, Ted is a deep thinker with extensive theological knowledge and articulated opinions of the role and responsibilities of modern winemakers. Together we reflect on what spirituality means in the context of fine wine and how deeply it influenced wine's history and tradition across centuries and wonder what raw spirituality could play in the future of fine wine. It was without doubt the most unconventional conversation we hosted in 2025 and one of the most meaningful two. For two hours suspended in the quiet of the Abbey, time simply stopped. So I hope as you join us in this reflection that it might briefly stop for you as well. Enjoy! Thank you again Obert for accepting this conversation and Ted also for joining us. And as always I guess my first question for both of you is the title is the importance of spirituality in wine making. What spirituality to you? What does that word means? Oh Berife, I can't throw the question to you first. But you know the first, if we speak of civilization, civilization in my view is the victory of spirit on material matter. It's a spirit in art, in music, in literature. All this is what I call civilization and it is a victory on matter. And wine is very much part of civilization in that way. In Burgundy it's by chance. It was started by people who were, people dedicated to prayer, dedicated to the word of gospel. And I think it's interesting to know that finally the teaching of the gospel, the Christian gospel, the teaching is that spirituality is not in rituals, the spirituality of religion is not in rituals, it's not in mysticism, it's in concrete, I mean the miracles and all that. And the monks have really taken this teaching in, and they tell us which works I have done with the vineyards is that spirituality can be found in the concrete, in the Chupin, the concrete things, not the concrete in the Berlin. It was the way to, it was one of the ways they had, they put in force their spirituality. What I can say to start the conversation, perhaps, and it's true that in the, when we think of the arc kind of agriculture with this idea of making wine, not creating, but making a wine that is the expression of the place, with one variety being the translator, the interpreter of the place is an idea that is really spiritual. It's, it goes much beyond the idea of making wine by man, it's making by man, but inspired by nature and the man could, I'm sorry for my English, the man couldn't make, the great wine, he could make the great wine, if he was using only his scientific knowledge, he can make a great wine only if he is in, spiritually, in connection with his vineyard and with his wine by obligation. And it's interesting, like very much to hear what, because Ted went to United States after working a certain number of years in Burgundy, not too many, just enough to make maybe, taking his suitcase, the spirit. And I think you are, what Ted does in United in California is a, he enhances even this spirit you found in Burgundy. Ted, can you give us your definition of spirituality and how you see that word? That was just wonderful to listen to. I'm still the sponge of taking that up, but maybe adding just a very modern consciousness aspect to this. The problem, I think that we all have, all that's of people, we generally, as Westerners now have a good day. re-associating with the spirit is that we have been educated in the Western reductionist tradition. And our understanding of science is that science is purely what we know as reductionist science. That's the end of science. There's several problems with that, but just to sort of try to recapture the word spirituality which can feel very funny in English, right? Those of us who are native or at least Native American English speakers are familiar with it because it starts to feel a little bit like 1960s new age. And what we're often asked to think of and you gave us a great little definition of consciousness in there, but we're often asked to think that it's subjective, right? That that that spiritual experience or consciousness is subjective and yet you know because it's individual or it's perceived because of Westernism it's perceived to be individual and yet it's so easy to turn that on its head because if I sit under the apple tree and the apple falls and I perceive gravity is that subjective it's an individual perception but it's not a subjective perception. So I guess the difference is the heart I am therefore I think and I am I think, right? I think therefore I am right was the way he phrased it? Yeah but then they took it they took the therefore away because the I am I think couldn't be it's not a consequence it's just a fact that I am I think so I can't have it there. So do I understand that it's something similar? So it's not subjective it's not because it's individual that it's subjective because it's part of me and it's real. Yeah that that modern reductionism has tried to claim it was it is subjective because it is individual and not provable within the framework of modern science. Okay so the definition that you mentioned is the definition that I took from Dr. Maya Spencer from the Royal Academy of Psychiatrists and she says spirituality involves the recognition of a feeling or sense of belief that there is something greater than myself something more to being human that sensory experience and that the greater hall of which we are part is cosmic or divine in nature. Spirituality means knowing that our lives and I added our wines have significance in a context beyond a mundane everyday existence at the level of biological needs that drives selfishness and aggressions. It means knowing that we are a significant part of a purposeful unfolding of life in our universe. There's the universal themes of spirituality like love, compassion, altruism, life after death with German truth etc and with the knowledge that some people such as saints or enlightened individuals have achieved and manifested higher levels of development than the ordinary person. I'm going to keep that source for legita but on that definition of spirituality Ted has your definitional understanding of it evolved through time. Yeah of course of course it has because I think that there's a process that you undergo with this world interest you right of investigation and understanding that there aren't a lot of us who are enlightened at 15 or whatever most of us have to struggle through life to find our ways to some sort of understanding of the meaning of our lives. So of course it evolved I mean for me I did not have the benefit of the kind of agricultural connection as child that exists in Burgundy. So the the the touch, the spark that O'Bareh mentioned that is the undercurrent of so much of Burgundian wine growing whether it's spoken of you know directly or not didn't exist for someone like me whereas if you're a young wine growing Burgundy there is some dimension of that. No I don't agree. I don't think the fact of being born in Burgundy and being in touch with Vignade brings you any kind of Oh no there's a door there. Yes it's a door. Whether you go through the door or not there's another thing sorry. Yes. Why? It's because I think the I think when you are when you come from outside, I came in Burgundy whatever was in West 25. I didn't know much Burgundy before when you came I think you have a you have perhaps a more intense view of what spirituality can be in wine in Burgundy wine than somebody who has born and is caught in rituals if I can say. But it's interesting what you mentioned about the door that there and that you can open because if you look even at language in wine so in English we have to use fine wine which is to me a relationship to the matter to the material the materiality of the wine right it's fine it's more refined right and then in French we use that word of grand va ou haute gastronomy so everything that's of excellent quality is grand va grand cuisine grand music haute gastronomy and then there's notion there's a door that you can open because that reflects something that takes you for your condition of puti which is from the soil from the ground to something which is higher up and I mean you don't it's not because you work in greatness and excellence or luxury that you aspire to that but the door is here you can also create something which is so beautiful that's higher you know that's worthy of God to me that's quite interesting as a vocabulary but if you come to vocabulary you know this term grand va French grand va is a is a term or personally I never use I mean I try not to use because what we tendency of people is to call it grand va et va ou is a great appellation ou is a great great wine when a grand va can be with a very modest appellation it's so these notions must be used with care I was just continuing on Ted's thoughts that if you want the door is here for you to interpret the fact that it combines something that elevates you you don't have to understand it like this but there's part of the understanding that can be that and so it doesn't matter how much the wine cost or how much the land cost with the pyramid of AOC it comes from but it's been thought after it's been envisioned at something that should elevate you and that might be really cliche and I'm open to cynicism but one of the for me one of the signs of burgundy in the palette is the wine that goes up and that you know that takes you up like this and that's my that's my connection to to that that's just very very personal what you're saying that what Pauline is saying is that is that a vocation of of great wine whether they're from a small appellation or not but you're elevating it is a portal to the higher world is that something that resonates with you or not? Of course it's it's only a question of vocabulary you know but of course it is a it is it carries all what all why we work in this business is because we we find in in the cultivating vineyard or making wine we find a we go beyond our own our own personality we having the feeling that we work for the community for the whole world for the for for other people than than than than we are than was and trying to to create something that will help them to go beyond the c'est pas grilda. Crazy, maneira très grande. Il faut bien y gagner un meilleur semana. - Ho, vous-jevez l'avocatieвер? - Oui, est-ce que vous êtes avec vous? - C'est un cas de religion, de la crée de l'avocat. Il y a des gens qui ont été très bien. Le product est parti de la façon dont le monde est à la espérature. Le truc qui est important pour nous, c'est que nous sommes les biaires. - Nous sommes les biaires. - Mais nous sommes les biaires. Nous sommes les exceptions pour la façon dont le monde est existant. - C'est un period dans lequel nous sommes. - Les gens qui ont été déguéts, ont un visage de l'avocat. C'est un visage complètement défié pour la historique humaine de l'avocat. - Pour 1000 ans, ou depuis le début de l'avocat, je dirais que la lignée de l'avocat est essentielle. Nous sommes maintenant, de nous, les modernes humains qui ont été déconnectés. Et nous sommes les exceptions. Le brouhant ou la historie, c'est de la spirituality. - La première question est que pour moi, une partie incroyable, une partie incroyable, nous sommes en train de faire le fonction que nous sommes en train de faire. Mais avoir dit que si vous venez de la société, une culture de la main, ou une culture de psychedelique, mon vieux est que nous sommes arrivés à la fin de la période humaine de l'avocat, où les matériaux de l'avocat, nous sommes un petit à la spiritualité. - Pourquoi? - Parce que je pense que tous les produits de ce qui, de course, je suis décliné et de l'avocat, nous ne sommes pas là, nous ne avons besoin d'accès à notre vieux, une conscience affectée, une conscience influence, pour être le seul. - Moi, c'est quoi? - C'est quoi? - Dynamiquement, ce qui est une anthropologie, ce qui est un lieu de spiritualité, que les gens qui ont trouvé de cette abe, devront se faire par un paix, un hérotique. - Pourquoi? Pourquoi? Pourquoi? Pourquoi? Pourquoi? - C'est quoi? - C'est quoi? - Je ne sais pas bien, je ne sais pas en tant que. - Vous êtes fonds biodynamiquement et c'est un technique que les gens qui ont trouvé de la disabi ont conçu de Pagan. Et je pense que la question est, "est-ce que vous êtes reconnu?" - Non, je pense que le fait de l'avocat, et le fait de l'avocat, le point de l'avocat est très bien, l'avocat est très bien, l'avocat est très bien, mais je pense que l'avocat est très bien, et il n'y a pas de temps, il n'y a pas de temps, il n'y a pas de temps, il n'y a pas de temps, il n'y a pas de temps, parce que c'est le spirituelité. Le meilleur expérience de spirituelité était que. des premières premières des premières premières, était. qu'il était capable de s'enfer du filoxéra. En 1945, il était capable de s'enfer du filoxéra. Il était capable de s'enfer du filoxéra. Le rec vallahi " � iPhone 2!", ça rament vers tekéen employés sur les dua liens wie réut 개bur hairstyle pour quem qui likelyait d'une place�, à l' Wassmothê, mais je sais que l'inter washant variait déjà à côté au chat et à l'assemblée de Crabéством, hein? Comme le Nice Grades n'est qu'il neutron pas, c'est qu'il protéerait les oeufs que ça a été un peu plus grand, comme pour 30 ou 40 ans, vous vous faites un petit coup à la bottom, vous vendez dans le soleil et vous vivrez 1, 2 ou 3, vous avez des oeufs, vous vous donnez un nu, et ce vignard a été par rapport à cette façon, quand le filoxel arrive, il s'est sképte sur le filoxel, le filoxel, c'était le seul que l'on a dit à 5 filoxel à la time. Il a été passé par le second le filoxel, et dans le filoxel, le second le filoxel, n'a pas de carbone sur le filoxel, il était très difficile de faire le menu, parce que il a besoin du menu, et donc, dans le filoxel, la production était 2 bières, des vignards, qui étaient 1 hectare, qui me font quelque chose, et donc, la génération, avant l'une, ils ont décidé de tirer et replanter. Ils replantaient en 47, aujourd'hui, on va voir plus de temps, ils ont plané très rapidement, personne ne voit pas beaucoup de temps, mais de diverses choses comme ça. Et les gens qui ont été, qui ont été testifiés, c'est des citoyens qui ont fait le travail, que quand le vignard est fait, ils retourent, ils retourent, et ils ne sont pas mal, c'était quelque chose comme 50 cm d'épisode, un sort de mal à l'heure de rousse, rousse, vines, dans des compositions avec l'Earth, et le nouveau vignard, l'Earth, en fait, 2 ans et plus tard, a été replant, et le 1er vignard était en 1952, en 1952, 5 ans après le vignard, donc un vignard très bien, et une éroine, et que nous avons également pensé de la bâtline, parce que ils ont été basés, et j'ai déjà fait 52, en 1952, quelque chose comme 6 ou 7 fois dans ma vie, et la dernière fois, dans les pays de l'Union, je pense que c'était 2 ou 3 ans, et le vignard était plus d'un alive, et le vignard est 5 ans, et la texture de la finesse de la finesse de la normalité, et le vignard était plus d'un normal, et le vignard était plus d'un, et le vignard était plus d'un, en train de neuf, qui est une femme de finir et de l'esprit de la main. Il a un explication qui n'est pas un scientifique, mais je pense que l'un de mes nuages de finir, il a trouvé dans cette mer, une façon, quelque chose, vous savez, c'était là et il a donné dans le vin. Et si ce n'est pas espérature, ce n'est pas espérature, je ne sais pas ce n'est pas vraiment. Je disais, c'est un petit peu un peu d'élicité pour changer le fond du temps. - C'est un question de l'esprit de la fréquence, évidemment, de la fin, mais je ne vais pas trouver un moment de fréquence dans mon vine, par le vin, je ne sais pas ce que je suis capable de faire, je ne sais pas ce qu'on a dit, c'est un sens de connecter avec quelque chose de plus d'un. Je ne sais pas ce qu'il y a des définiés, des aspects de fréquence, et je suis juste sûr que si quelqu'un a été fait, il y a des expériences, ou du tout, ou du tout, ou du Ted. - Oui, oui. - Oui, oui. - Je suis en train de dire que l'un des plus recentes que ce qui fait en viticulture, c'est le débat de la fin, et le fait que nous ne sommes pas aussi en la fin de la fin, et nous avons considéré ça pour être mort et pour juste un système de support pour le vin. Et nous avons réalisé maintenant que ce n'est pas un peu de décade, mais c'est beaucoup de gens qui sont en train de la vie, et que nous avons vraiment accès à la fin de notre capacité de la fin. Comment le décade de l'incirion et l'exploration de ce que les choses peuvent faire, change votre relation, ce n'est pas un espératualité qui est une connexion avec le fait que nous pouvons comprendre mieux. - Je pense que mon answer est que la qu'on va donner à nous, c'est que ce n'est pas un espératualité, mais c'est un espératualité qui est une connexion avec le fait que 90% de la microbe ne peut pas être reproduisée dans la pétrie. - Oui, oui. - Donc ce que nous connaissons est tellement tini, comparé à ce que c'est le qu'est le qu'est le plus univers que ce que c'est là-dedans. - Donc ce n'est pas un challenge de la. - C'est plus foule, ce n'est pas un plus foule. Parce que vous avez le raison de ce que vous avez fait, que vous avez fait que vous êtes partagé de quelque chose d'autre, c'est vraiment proven. - Et aussi, c'est tellement important de comprendre que la qu'on appelle l'opposition entre science et espératualité, c'est une réflexion de l'aborgation qui se passe quand le capot et Galilei ont été remerçés, et que le cherchement de l'attitude était que le espérat de l'aborgation de nous, le monde de la materie, est pour vous. Donc nous ne nous demandons pas vous, comme scientifiques, de parler de l'aborgation de l'aborgation, c'est le domaine de religion. Et donc parce que nous avons en train de l'arriver dans cette guerre, et votre question se dit à l'aborgation de la guerre. - Oui. - Oui, oui. - Vous avez fait le débat sur la religion, donc je vais continuer sur cela, parce que je voulais vous comprendre la différence entre espératualité et religion, parce que pour moi, ce ne peut être très bien, mais espératualité est souvent seen comme une expération personnelle, et que c'est comme une religion collective et rétualisée. Et nous sommes en Burgundy, et, encore, je suis fascinée sur un niveau personnel, et je suis fascinée, mais c'est une autre question. - Je suis fascinée par le mith qui est venu de jouer, et qu'ils sont articulés, et qu'ils sont encore très liés dans le monde. Et Burgundy est aussi le champion de ce qui est de la story de monque, qu'il peut être que nous devons avoir une histoire de la story, et nous devons avoir une histoire de la story, et ce serait que nous devons avoir une histoire de la story, mais nous devons avoir une histoire de la story, dans un grand collectif de la memory, que je ne peux pas penser que c'est toujours dans le monde, et que le Burgen Genouin ne fait pas de ce qui fait de faire un comment sur ce. Mais certainement, les gens qui étaient venus de faire fin wine dans le Burgen Genouin ne sont pas le monque. Et leur idée, quand ils ont fait le bon, c'était de créer quelque chose qui serait à la niveau de ce que Dieu a fait, parce qu'ils vivent dans le monde, que Dieu est créé, et quand ils sont un peu plus liés, très très très très très très, et la situation de la relation, réalise que ce sport qui fait un wine avec un certain nombre de tests, ce sport qui fait un wine avec un autre test, et ce sport fait un autre wine avec un autre, ils ont vraiment une conjunction de la idée de faire un wine fin, et cette espérature de l'attitude avec laquelle ils font le wine. Donc, je pense qu'il y a une sortes de miraclees de la conjunction à la fois, dans les médias. Et si vous avez le droit de faire le bon, j'espère que vous avez bien entendu le premier, et que vous avez le droit de faire le bon, et que vous avez le droit de faire le bon, et que vous avez le droit de faire le bon, et sur cette matter de la collective mythe, parce que cette histoire de la montque, nous devons avoir décidé de faire le bon, et ne pas utiliser le bon, collective identité. Comment vous pensez, c'est une espérature de l'attitude avec un burgundy, Je veux dire qu'il faut% pourmesler une expérience organisée dans les néoïdesarnes, c'est aussi important. the *le rez-ne* ore pas! Et pour ce moment est très bien. J'ai commencé à le faire sur le bonheur, parce que je me suis dit que nous avons besoin de te lutter, les gens dans le dogon, les gros, les mecs, mais aussi les populations. Ce sont des choses extrêmement pressantes dans les reins, des choses qui ont été. qui ont été. qui ont été passés par les centuries, qui n'ont pas été libérés, qui ont des idées de. une place qui est capable de lutter, pour tenter de la place, avec un hierarchy. Et ce qui est comme ça, pour les vols et les revolutions, ce n'est pas. le dogon, le dogon, le dogon, le guain, et pour moi, c'est très bien à ce que vous le faites sur la chirurgie, parce que c'est quelque chose qui est plus. - Vous avez des responsabilités avec l'histoire ou avec le reste de l'émergne, mais voilà, c'est. - C'est un camp de défi. - Il fallait y aller comme tout le défi. Ted, comment vous avez dit que la chirurgie de la chirurgie, la chirurgie de la chirurgie, ou la chirurgie de la chirurgie, est-ce que c'est pas parti? Non, ce n'était plus Benoît que la ly성ation simple IT interfereoul回 et pasarmed that the, you know, there was burgundy and there was boredom. And so I couldn't wrap my hat around the scale of boredom and the fact that the chapter could too was usually separated from the celimaster. And so to me logically, you know, I used to resist that, but I now say it. I hate the word right while you're making, but I like the word wine growing. And the idea that the same person or team is doing both the vineyard and the wine only seemed logical to me. And that's why burgundy inherently made more sense. And you came from which state? Where did you come from? New York. New York. So you grew up in New York. Were you on a fire? No, I'm, you know, Westchester, it's a Birmingham, West chester County. But I had lived with the French family and ran for a year in high school. You want it to be a writer? You want it? It'd be a writer Sunday. Oh, well, you definitely think so. So I'm that sort of thinking a lot because I know we had some debate and I think they were interesting. I mean, we are in burgundy and the sister I'm sorry, they're not good at it, I'm afraid to confuse them with them, because they have a lot in common. But the orders of Sambu Noir, their mantra is "Orah and Lava." And I know that you think about that mantra quite a lot then how you want to reconcile that with how you work. Can you explain? Yeah, I was thinking earlier this thing to Ober, you know, talking about how Vong was largely created first, by the Benedictines, right, before the Sustertian arrival. And I had a moment of smiling Ober because when I landed in Burgundy, I landed in Bohé Sainte-Denis, which is north of the Clue de Vruja, and Vonissa. So I ended up on the Sustertian side. Yes. And I'd never thought of that before. So that was really wonderful to think about that. But I think that my understanding of Sustertianism and my reading in it, and I've read some of the works of some of the great Sustertian authors, you know, Sambu Noir now, and I like that, was, and this is sort of what you would read in Wikipedia also, was that part of what they wanted to do, and Ober, you correct me as you see fit. But part of what they wanted to do was this idea of work and prayer. And when they were talking about work, they were not talking about intellectual work or library work. And so they were talking about work and soil. These are the Sustertians. Yes, the Sustertians. Right. And so what attracted to me to them, I think subconsciously, right, Paul, because it was certainly not conscious, was this idea that the two go together. Right. That through work, you, you, you, you, you, you can reach for the earth and through, through prayer, you reach for the sky. And that the joining of the two, makes a vine. Make well, it certainly makes the vine. I mean, that's kind of what we're discussing, isn't it? But it is also what makes the fully human, right, that you, you participate in the earthly processes, even though they didn't, they were in society at large, right? You, you, you participate in the earthly processes and you participate in the spiritual process. But did you tell me one time that it was limited, that they forgot about the dimension of something? No, we're not that happy about that mantra. No, I think that, I think that because these were men, obviously, I mean, talking about that yet, but these were men, obviously, they had both sides. And, um, if you, if any of you have not been to Fontaineer, yeah, they please go to Fontaineer's. It's an extraordinary place. And I, it took me the third trip back there to see the significance for me personally. Whether it speaks to anyone else here or not. Um, I apologize, but I was drawn back a couple of times and it was only the, the third visit that I really sort of understood what was, what it was, quote unquote, trying to speak to me. Which is that you have the beautiful church of an extraordinary simplicity on one side of the monastery. And then on the other, you have the forge where the work and of course, there's the river that passes where you have the water wheel that, um, makes the forge work. And there's this beautiful duality and yet unity because it's the same group of people again doing the spiritual work and doing the physical incarnation of, of that. And, um, if you, if you go to, um, the Abbey, there's a plaque on the wall. I wrote this down because I wanted to remember this in case it specifically came up. So I wanted to quote it to you. And I just thought it was, it was really interesting in terms of how it relates to, to what we're talking about. There's a plaque on the wall and the forge. Okay. And the plaque states that the forge is, quote, the first metallurgical factory in Europe and the in place of the invention of the hydraulic hammer. This invention became the basis of industrial manufacturing of iron and Europe. So for me, as a, as a non-religious, as a non-monk, the entire drama of what we are living is present in Font Nec. Meaning that the monks had both sides to work in the prayer. We've forgotten the prayer. The forge one. The modern Western society. The forge one. And our job, which is what you and I had talked about when you came to litter eye for me or our task to me, is to add a word to that order at level, which is for me at transformatio in the, in the, in the, which is that our job, because we are not monks, right? Some of us have spiritual practice, etc. But our job in the modern sense is to transform ourselves. And to find the through the association of the physical work and the spiritual work to transform ourselves in as well. You know, the physical work, the Benedictines didn't, didn't work with the hands in the soil. They worked in the scriptarium, I mean many hours. And you put this work on the simple level or not? Of course. Oh, of course. [Laughter] Yes, of course. So it's not a rejection of interest? No, I think it's not. It's a work. It's more that, to me, the challenge posed to us, and this we've talked about this in some of our groups, is that we are so estranged from agriculture. I'm not saying that people around this table necessarily, but humanity is so estranged from agriculture, that there is a value to working with the earth for modern humans, which is beyond that, which it was for our ancestors. They had the connection. We've lost the connection. The connection is broken. So when we go back to work the earth, we're going to take from it something that is appropriate for modern human consciousness. And that's where the transformation is. But I really like your thing about the forge one. It was for most forge one. It was very long. You have to wonder what the monks would think of AI, right? Of course. So is that the work? It's terrible. It's a really important work. How do you. Because we have the wine in the glass. And we have. Does that theoretical. Well, does that conversation on spirituality and how you connect with it? How does that translate in your wines or your vitic order of process? Or like, does it have any practical impact? Because. Can you. Yeah. Can you give us an example of how you do things differently because you have that connection with spirituality? Can you talk about that for the domain? No, but. No, no. No, no. Because. No, no. It's a human being. No, no. No, no. Because. No, it's a human being. And. And. And. And. Il y a des domaines, et si il y a des philosophies, il y a des methods, des choses à faire, mais il y a des philosophies. Je dirais que ce que j'ai été tenté de être un petit peu plus dur, même sur le fond, ou sur le fond du winery. Tout est un objectif de être parfait. Il y a une chose si possible, parfait. Et donc, je ne sais pas si, nous avons pas des methods qui seraient spécialement espératiles. Mais le travail est si si tout le monde travaille parfaitement, travaille de faire ses choses avec l'imagination, même avec ce que ça va créer un grand winery. Et si vous êtes dans le sens de la perfection, mais si vous êtes dans le sens de la perfection, vous êtes dans le sens de la perfection. C'est juste ce que ça peut être. Le défi de l'université est le sens de la perfection. Le moment où vous vous savez, quand vous imaginez si possible, vous savez que c'est pas possible. Parfait que l'idée est toujours d'en faire. Est-ce que le sens de la perfection? C'est le sens de la perfection. Mais quand je suis en train de dire que je suis venu à un moment de savoir comment je suis en train de parler de l'écontinement. Pourquoi est-ce le sens de la perfection? Nous avons fait 100 interviews avec professionnelles de comment ils ont dit que la perfection de la perfection et de tenter de trouver les points communs si nous pouvons trouver des points communs et nous ne avons pas utilisé terroir. Et si quelqu'un a dit pourquoi terroir n'est pas en taille? Parce que ce qu'on utilise est que quelqu'un, en fait, il faut trouver une sense de la perfection. Parce que ce qui est pour moi, ce qui peut être une chose de terroir, si vous voulez être une chose de terroir, mais dans aucun contexte cornexé, une chose de la perfection de la perfection, c'est aussi pour moi qui est en train de trouver les points communs même si vous n'êtes pas comme ce qui est le terme, mais les gens qui font la perfection de la perfection ont été des points communs et des points communs, et des points communs, et des points communs, et des points communs, et des points communs, et je voulais vous dire que c'est une description que vous voulez, et si ça arrive avec les responsabilités et si c'est une chose de autre. - Merci à vous, merci. - Merci à vous, je suis un dôre. - Je ne vais pas le voir, mon cerveau est enlated et dôre. - Mais. - Mais vous êtes enlated. - Mais vous devez bien le dire, que quand les gens parlent de vous, ils parlent de l'horreur et de la présence et de l'horreur et de l'horreur, et de l'horreur, et de l'horreur, et de l'horreur, est vraiment écrite, parce que la croix de propre, la croix de propre, et ce n'est pas le fait que vous êtes en train de faire le défi, et vous êtes en train de faire le défi, et vous êtes en train de faire le défi, de travailler avec tes suppliers et ton cap Skyldre etc, vous trying de la Proわかition venez à aspirations pour le pouvoir de cette raison est que nous sommes les riches âgres des culturedés, ou les ans, si vous voulez, et pas tout le monde en main, mais beaucoup de gens sont. Nous avons une particularité de responsabilité de partager un grand nombre de monde naturel. Ce qui est une expérience, je ne sais pas si vous avez besoin de faire de l'expérience avec les autres. Et donc, ce qui est manifestant dans tous les choses que vous vous le parlez. Si vous faites une bonne glace avec les gens, ce n'est pas un moment plus important. Ce n'est pas un moment plus important. et qu'ils sont extrêmement importants. Il y a une autre dimension. Quand tu es une state qui en a un qui en a un dieu, le Spirit, le naturel et le monde vivant avec qui on existe. Si vous ferez les qui vous condamneront, ils se fous, ils se fous. Ils se fous, ils se fous, pas tout. Et ils fous et ils se fous, avec ça, plus d'autres, mais c'est un confessed humain. Ils ont fait quelque chose, ils ont fait ça. and that feeling was real for them. They didn't make it. So Maggie Yanriquez has her own definition of the root of luxury between being locks the light and responsibility of luxury is to show the way to light the path. And I don't know if she was talking about the spiritual way, but I find it quite similar in your definition, it's just like light something in people's heart, in people's mind, everywhere, because you don't dissociate that. That's interesting. My last question is very much looking ahead, but in that sense of what is the role of spirituality in the future of fine wine? What can spirituality play? You know, just, I don't like the word luxury about wine. I think so. I think we are producing an agricultural product. And I feel that speaking of luxury for it, it's not the same world. Well, I had a feeling you might not like it. But you know, that was just like, maybe if I proposed you that definition of light and locks, there might be something you would find interesting. I like it. Thank you very much, Pauli. So yeah, the question was like, again, if we, in the 'why does wine matter' big question that we had to think about today, what's the role of spirituality in the future of fine wine? If we were to play spirituality more at the centre, what would that change for fine wine? If we relate spirituality with culture, with civilisation, I think the future is in the 'is' future in that kind of spirituality. I think the French writer, my role, he said or how, or wrote that the next century will be spiritual or will not be. The big problem in the wine industry right now is to make people drink wine. So, if the most penetrated are the more culture, more civilisation, the more the better wines are, the more chance they have to be to be a hunk, not to be a denomination. It also helps the issue of the challenge of health. We start thinking about how can wine play a more important role in fighting against this idea that alcohol is bad for your health, that any amount of alcohol is bad. So, talking about wine as it relates to spiritual and cultural shifts that conversation in a way that I think it would be very useful. Ted? Yeah, I think that I started to allude to it that our position of privilege in the world of agriculture means that number one, to me, we have a moral or ethical obligation to do more in terms of restoring ecological health and balance and all that sort of thing. But I also think we have an opportunity to really, and it exists in general, I also, but we have an opportunity to accelerate it in a way that is very difficult in general agriculture to accelerate a new environmentalism. Because the historical environmentalism was the environmentalism of the cathedral of nature. As one writer wonderfully wrote, "Nature thinking of things like the great national parks, a great nature was a place where you could walk, which you couldn't eat." So, traditional environmentalism removed humanity. It could walk through the cathedral, but not touch. And I think the new form of environmentalism when we touch the earth, and we put humans back in connection through our employees, through our interns. That's incredibly important to the interns who come and go when they experience a different relationship with farming beyond the industrial model, and they carry that out into the world. And your consumers see that, I will mention that, where they feel it. That's a real effect upon the world. So, that's where I see an opportunity. I remember when we did the visit to yours in California two years ago. I was in that group, but the people that came back, I asked them, "How was it?" And they looked at me and was like, "It was life changing." I suppose that means good. But that feeling of something has changed. But that is so right. I think this kind of new look comes from a new or a small operation. But if you do this, if this happens with your interns, where they go in the world, they can't. If there are some places where there exists, it's enough of a certain number. Does it need to be everybody else in that? No, who was the famous person who said that don't believe that an individual cannot change the world? It's only individuals who have. A small group of people. Thank you. Margaret Mead said, "Never believe that a small group can change the world." The thing is, it has to be what is like this diffused. It must be an idea. Not an ideology. That's a good point. That's a good point. It can be scary. For instance, what is great with this idea is to be simple. To make wine, to be the representation, not of the place. With one rite, it's an idea that lived for a long time. But it never became an ideology. Within the concept of idea is the freedom of the individual who receives the idea. You take from it what you will. Ideology does not allow the freedom of the receiver and respecting the freedom of the receiver is essential. By an enemy, it can be a great idea. It can be an ideology too. Total dogma. Absolutely. Do you want to tell us what we're drinking? It is a nodal wine that personally I have kind of feeling for, because it was a vintage a large crop. I remember the day before the harvest. We went in the vineyard. I could see that the difference was the difference between the vines carrying the fine types of grapes. Usually, young vines were bigger clusters. It was the first time we made a difference. We could ask our team of pickles to first pick the fine grapes and leave the more rustic behind, which were harvested later. Which is an idea that has to be, since I have very much worked on because it's not that simple. When you have a very high vintage, it's not totally a good idea to pick only what is the finest because what brings a little more quantity can also bring more finesse to the wine. It's natural, it's not a good idea. It's a good idea. So do you want to guess the vintage? Yes, 99. Thank you so much. We're very grateful. 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