The Relegation Zone Draft With Rob Mahoney!

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Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026, Anheuser-Busch, Michelob Ultra Light Beer, St. Louis, Missouri. St. Louis, Michigan. Zachary Rissachet, the number one pick in the draft just two short years ago in a draft that's shaping up to be an all-time crossroads moment for a bunch of teams off to Dallas in that same trade. We talk about that, and we do it while we rank the nine teams who at least start the season in relegation zone danger based on where they were in the standings last year, their outlook this year. Some of these teams are going to be maybe better than that, especially the Dallas Mavericks with Kyrie Irving. Hell yeah. But we just do a fun draft, an intrigue draft. Who are we most interested in? That's the only criteria. You can draft whoever you want. So it's a good way to talk about the Washington, Chicago, Memphis, Dallas, Sacramento, a whole bunch of teams. Rob Mahoney, we're going to deep dive all those teams in rapid-fire succession, their outlook for this season, their outlook beyond all that. Lots of fun stuff coming up on The Zach Lowe Show. ♪♪♪ Welcome to The Zach Lowe Show. It's almost vacation time. It's July 21st, day 22. Waiting for LeBron. We're running short on food and water. No decision has been made. Rob Mahoney is here on his way out the door to undisclosed locations for vacation. LeBron, are you bringing a microphone in case LeBron signs while you're on a boat somewhere? It simply won't be happening for me. But I've already eaten three of our fellow media members as we wait for this to unfold. You know, it's desperate times out here. We have that left to go, and connected to that, we have James Harden and Draymond Green still sitting unsigned, and we have Jalen Duren still sitting unsigned in what could be a prolonged restricted free agency standoff, a good old-fashioned standoff at the restricted free agency OK Corral. Rob, do you have any leftover thoughts on LeBron James? Are you, have you, have you, I crossed the Rubicon yesterday where I'm like, I now no longer am planning any of my life around this. I'm going to go swimming if I want to go swimming. I'm going to make dinner plans if I'm going to have dinner plans. I might have the second glass of wine if I want to have the second glass of wine, and the takes will probably be even hotter with that. So that's where I am. I don't, I'm not mad at it. No. Like people who have, when my contract has come up in various iterations, people will tell you I am a very slow decision maker not to compare myself to LeBron James. And what's that? Stake for him. So I empathize. I'm just not planning my life front anymore. LeBron. I think it's totally reasonable. We have talked ourselves in and kind of out of, or maybe just into whatever the next possibility is as they have come up. I've enjoyed it. I've had a good time kicking around all this. We've done the white boards and such along the way. I just think we're, we're cool for now. Like call us when a decision is made, report it somewhere. I'm thrilled to find out whatever it may be. But yeah, the days of just kind of hanging on every minute until this happens, I think both. We are too late. In. The summer for all that, for all of our sakes. And also LeBron is a very important player, but maybe not that player anymore. I gotta tell you, I haven't left my voice note yet for rich. No, I did speak to him yesterday about matters unrelated to this. Didn't really make a case for, for Spotify ringer for LeBron where I, you know, maybe I, maybe I should have, I will say, where would you start? Do you think like what's, what's the pitch for us? Certainly not a financial one. I don't think, I don't just like leave, leave the L word legacy, like make your legacy bigger than what you did on the court, bigger than what you did with the schools in Akron. Like talk, be, be the basketball narrative destroyer. Talk to us, teach us about basketball on your own pocket. It's not going to happen. He's already doing that on mind the game. We can just get mine in the game. I will say two things. No one knows anything like I don't like that. That is a line that has been parroted by executives from, from damn near every team that is even within the inner circle, outer circle, no circle, wherever Denver exists at all of this, everyone is like, Hey, we're in the dark. And you, and you ping them. I ping them like, Hey, I hear rumors that team extra, you have like a salary dump of this player in the works to fit LeBron. They're like, we do. Okay. I mean, I never heard that, but cool. So no one knows anything. I don't know anything. I will say I did find it just, just a little notable that Pat Riley sat with Dan Labrador yesterday, for an interview among about many topics among which was LeBron and how their relationship has thawed since LeBron left on fairly bad terms in 2014. I, but this is now the second GM Bob Myers already did this in, in the, in the LeBron Derby, but Riley has heft in a, in a deep preexisting relationship with LeBron. I don't know what motivated him to do that, but it was interesting to me. I mean, he does seem like the guy, Pat Riley, where if there is an opportunity, if there's a possibility, and all you need to do is get out in front of it a little bit publicly, why not say a few things, you know, if he really has thought to that extent. So I think it's good management. I think it's good. Like not information gathering, but projection into the marketplace. I just don't know how much it's really going to mean. Like if LeBron wants to go to the heat because of the golf situation and the basketball situation and all the other situations involved, I would think that part has already been decided as far as like Pat Riley's involvement in it, but maybe there really are dominoes yet to fall. Here is the last, last thing I will say on this. We've done the fit thing to death. What's the best fit. What's the worst fit. Why is this an awkward fit? Why is this a clean fit? Does he have anything to talk to with, with a metal ball about like, do they have anything in common? What would their conversations be like? Does LeBron understand emojis on texts, all that? And certain fits are cleaner than others in the Miami one, which I looked at a little bit more deeply yesterday was it's like, you know, like Brian wind horse, who said it's a place where he could be a playmaker, like a number one playmaker. If he wants to play that way. And if I'm honest, I'm like, Hey, really? Oh, okay. And LeBron, Giannis bam has its complications, but here's where I in Mitchell, hard and LeBron too big says it's complications where I've landed on. This is LeBron is still so good and so smart and so versatile because of his size that he's just going to help whatever team he goes to. And if the fit isn't perfect, so be it like, you're not going to find it. Like we're, I think, I think we're overthinking some of this. Like he's he, he is just that good and proved last year as a third option for 2025 games, whatever it was that he's pretty malleable. And I think it'll, I think it'll work wherever he goes to varying degrees. That's all. I really don't have any questions about whether the Miami situation would work relatively like the heat would be really good. They would be contention for if not the entire east and certainly advancing several rounds in the Eastern conference playoffs. I just kind of wonder if at the end of the trade road for Giannis, after these years, of wanting to get to the next team or thinking about the next team, he finally gets there and then has to share creative responsibility. And also bam has to share creative responsibility with someone who is as prominent as LeBron, someone who is as gifted and brilliant on the court as LeBron. Like it's a blessing to have him as part of your team, but it forces you into a different kind of role just by his existence there. And I'm, I'm not quite sure that's what Giannis thought he was signing up for in a trade to the heat in the first place. I'm assuming they will check with him and his agent. Who's also bam's agent before doing anything. In this regard. Although, although Riley may just not care, like Riley has already told the NASA, Hey buddy, look elsewhere, man. Like we don't, we don't need you here as our cheerleader. Like you're going to look at all the, all the bros. You got to look elsewhere. Okay. Here's what we're going to do. We are going to do what I'm calling the relegation zone draft. And it's not necessarily all these teams are going to be so bad. They're going to be in the relegation zone. It's just that based on where they are starting after where they finished in the standings last season, and what's happened in the off season here are teams who kind of are starting at the bottom and are either clearly aimed that way or could aim that way. If things go badly. So we're going to look at nine teams and the nine teams are in the east Washington, Brooklyn, bringing up the standing. Sorry. Remember all my teams, Washington, Brooklyn, Chicago, Milwaukee in the west, Sacramento, Dallas, Pelicans, Cleveland. flippers tbd we don't even know who's on the freaking team true shout out my boy lipton uh and and my boy cats uh over there keep it up boys um and we're just gonna go through these teams rapid fire and the draft is just purely intrigue based i said it could be your intrigue could be based on anything it could be based on one player it could be based on hey i actually think this team could be pretty good this year it could be based on they have a really interesting trade candidate it could be based on i have absolutely no idea what they're doing or if they're even aware that the offseason has started and that player transactions are allowed could be any of those things uh and then we'll just sort of rapid fire through them so i'm generous host i'll give you the first pick rob we got nine teams you get the number one pick i am somewhat surprising myself in selecting the memphis grizzlies as the number one pick of the intrigue draft how do you feel about the grizzlies zach i feel angry because they were also my number one pick in the intrigue draft um uh well screw you rob okay i don't want to give you the number one pick anymore but you can take it uh make the case for the memphis grizzlies who by the way i'm just gonna say fan duel has just released maybe not just released i just noticed them refreshed over unders the memphis over under on fan duel as of now and their roster is probably finished barring a little like wave d low trade kcp wave and stretch kcp whatever it's going to be they are where the hell did they go they are 27 and a half over under so a slight bump up from last year yeah i don't even know what the record was last year but it was bad uh so make the case why are you so excited about this 27 and a half win team so even if they do those things you mentioned you know potentially wave or buy out d low wave or buy out kcp all of the above this is a shocking number of nba players on this roster like a shocking number of good interesting young guys guys who we've had a little time with or maybe in the case of some of uh you know the reserves who came over from the jazz we just want to see an expanded opportunities and i'm looking at this group and i'm just like this is a dizzying collection of just kind of baseline talent more than honestly a lot of playoff teams have and it's anchored by cam boozer who seems like a legit standard bearing rookie right like a guy who does not make a lot of mistakes who knows where to be who knows how to play is the kind of player who's going to be the most important player in the game and i think that's going to be big who i think is going to make the decent guards on this team that much better by making their jobs easier with his ability to facilitate and also make some of the bigs here that much more solid in the way they finish around the rim because of his connecting passes i just like the way that i don't know how this fits together because there's frankly too many guys to play we have no idea what the rotation would even look like but that possibility alone has me very intrigued um they were number one with a bullet for me i just could not be more excited to watch this team play i think that 27 and a half number is low and it's a little early for the the zach bill house over underspot which we're going to do in the fall maybe we might be changing the location of that um for one time only we'll see uh i just lock in the over now for memphis if this stays at 27 and a half i think they're going to be incredibly annoying to play against uh depth in the regular season we've seen is powerful now i will say the evisceration of out and out tanking is going to make you maybe gravitate toward the under i just think this team has legit talent like i joked a couple months ago that if you took like i like if we if we massage the numbers the right way so if we took ty jerome's whatever what he'd play like 10 15 20 games last year and they were like crazy and we took zach ed's whatever games last year and they were crazy and their net rating with him was like plus 18 or something bizarro like that and we just project a little bit a lot of expectation development for like cedric coward and jalen wells both of whom i expect will start i bet we could create a projection system where it's like the grizzlies are expected to win 55 games and we just completely over index i've like zach ed that's exactly what he'll do for 82 games and i think he's on track to be ready to start the season from what i've heard um ty drove like i don't know if it's ty jerome starting they have scotty pippen jr is awesome spencer's pretty good they've just got a lot like i forgot that jeremy grant was on the team until i started doing the game i think they're going to have a completely useful player who might be a backup for them now if they're going to start coward boozer ed beef stew is here quentin post is here they have so many bigs like i who is going to play center for this team i genuinely don't know ed stew post stew could play a little bit of four i mean like can omax prosper get minutes come on let's can taylor hendrix get minutes like these guys are can gg jackson jr get minutes like they have a lot of guys on the team i think they're going to and and they seem committed based on how they played last season and at summer league to this just like everyone's going to play four minute shifts and we're just going to be like rapid fire hockey subs in and out i'm all in i'm all in grizzlies western conference finals let's go i'm glad we talked ourselves into that i mean i do think if you are going to go rapid fire substitutions get a lot of guys in and out they have such contrasting styles where i mean you mentioned a guy like omax prosper who's quite good for them playing small ball five just throwing him in off of a zach ed stint and the whiplash that opposing team is going to have to deal with you know they're going to have to deal with you know teams that have to go through like okay now we have to totally recalibrate the way we think about this team we're playing against i really hope he gets some opportunity still i really hope hendrix doesn't get buried here because i could see a possibility where that could happen but he was really fun for them after the trade i just i think that the combination of wells and coward and boozer is so rock solid as young cores go that i'm even more intrigued in like the high variance guys i'm even more intrigued in gg jackson i'm even more intrigued in like which of these kind of variables can pop in a way that we might not be expecting because otherwise it just feels like as as a young team goes like pretty adult you know there's a lot of guys here who just kind of know what they're doing it's a strange phenomenon in that i think cam boozer a rookie is already the best player on the team and you may disagree with that i think he'll be the best player on the team this year and i think the team will actually be pretty decent that's a rare thing to say like a rookie is the best player and i think they're going to be the best player in the better than 27 and a half wins yeah i just think he's going to be awesome um he played some three in summer league and looked completely comfortable because he just has a do-it-all offensive skill set he looked actually passable to me defensively now again it's summer league he'll be challenged a little bit more in the regular season and this team they're going to have as many as three first round picks in the next draft uh including their own uh and utah's top five protected which annoyed them because it can't fall in the top five um anymore that's why it's top five protected because the jazz have picked in the top five two years in a row and can't pick in the top five three years in a row anymore um and a bunch of other draft assets i think they've come out of this morant bane triple j core about as well positioned as possible yeah the hall of picks a lot of guys to take flyers on take chances on see who kind of like drifts to the top of this mix it's a cool opportunity i think it's going to be one of those even if it is not to our projection system's fullest effect uh the kind of developmental system that's just fun to watch game to game and will actually be a good use of everybody's time in terms of filtering out which of these guys are actual high level players right now i think by the way i think ed is good if you can stay healthy definitely good it's just yeah i mean that's one of the biggest ifs in memphis basketball certainly i i would love to believe that that's true even if it's not true i mean we talked about the center depth and the options that they have here to just get through the season but yeah that combination of getting him actually on the floor and having an actual point guard rotation i think he's gonna just do wonders for this team surprise surprise and to be clear i don't expect zaggy to play even if he starts the season healthy which i think he's on track to do i don't expect him to play more than 55 to 60 games and he's not it's not like he's gonna be playing 30 minutes a game but i think in his minutes he's gonna be a pretty goddamn productive offensive player and like big enough on defense to be a pain in the butt get rebounds protect the rim by the way have you seen quentin post's contract from the much ballyhoo three year 30 year three or 30 million dollar offer sheet no are there are there some non-guarantees on there or what's going on the whole thing after this year is not guaranteed oh it's nine million guaranteed this year 8.55 zero guaranteed 27 28 same amount zero guaranteed team option 28 29 but good for quentin post okay it's my turn to pick unless you have other memphis thoughts no let's go uh again we're we're drafting based on intrigue okay not quality not fun just intrigue um the only move the new orleans pelicans have made this offseason is signing deandre jordan to a bizarro two two-year minimum contract um other than that it's unclear if they realize that the offseason has started um and yet this team what did they win last year i mean 20 something games 26 and 56 and they did nothing now they had health issues up and down the roster dejounte murray barely played herb jones and trey murphy both missed some games zion was actually reliable and i just i mean i'm intrigued about their phone line situation and cell phone reception i'm intrigued by that okay i'm not sure what's going on i am intrigued that there's a there is a lot there are a lot of interesting players here we have very little to no information about how well some of those players fit together and it's unclear if any of them other than derrick queen and jeremiah fears are like long for this team um dejounte murray's contract is up fairly soon i think let me bring up their cap sheet uh zion has this is the last guaranteed year left on zion's contract to zante maria as a player option for next season 30.7 that's a lot um jordan pool is expiring who cares um and like we just don't know things like are you going to start zion and derrick queen are you committed to zion long term again this is the last guaranteed season of zion williamson's contract um like fears murphy herb jones queen that feels like the youngish core of the team they only played 220 minutes together those four last year and they were not good the zion queen combination at the four and the five looked pretty unplayable defensively minus 11 per 100 possessions does that mean you don't start derrick queen does that mean you start zion at the three and eve's me see at the five and derrick queen is whatever he is something they tried last year i have no earthly idea um but they they do control their pick in fact they have a they have kind of like a super pick if i'm reading this right um they have i'm gonna read it to you verbatim new orleans will receive the more favorable of its 2027 first round pick okay and milwaukee's 2027 first round pick in atlanta will receive the lesser of the two protected for selections one to four if this pick falls within that range one to four new orleans gets both picks their own pick and the milwaukee pick that would be incredible uh so i just have no idea what to make of this team they have a new coach jamal mosley i what what's going on here rob but there's interesting players like does that thing look all right when he came back last year i don't know what's going on here there's interesting players i guess it's are you okay me picking the pelicans in intrigue your first team well i mean are you okay is a really loaded question i'm sorry maybe i'm not okay maybe you don't know maybe the mets are going to trade francisco lindor and my whole family's going to fall apart because i don't know i don't know rob i just think if we're talking intrigue my first question and maybe this is oversimplifying it is like what changed and the answer right now with the pelicans is absolutely nothing is it possible that i just wanted to kind of make fun of the pelicans i mean yes at the front of the podcast maybe it is uh they do control all their picks and all their swaps i just don't know like what the plan is no one around the league plan is no one knows like whether we should call joe dumars or uh or troy weaver who like what's going on um so i just don't and sadly enough did you see uh will gilleroy from the athletic is moving out of new orleans to cover the rockets new orleans is just hemorrhaged like there's no national outlet covering the pelicans anymore and they're just like they still have remember when zion williamson was so interesting that people flocked there no pun intended to cover williamson he played a lot last year yeah played very well i thought dejonte murray came back and like got his feet under him you know trey murphy got to push his game forward there were like a lot of little things in terms of the markers that were reasons for optimism and they resulted in this team being very very bad even still and so it's like they exist to me more i would say less as a basketball team than as just like a constant looming trade rumor as like hypothetical grease for the trade machine whenever they would like to get involved in such a thing they just don't seem terribly interested in movement right now and i'll say this like what jamal mosley did when he first came to orlando in terms of getting that team to buy in defensively that's something that could really help the pelicans frankly in a lot of different aspects like if he can get them to that level defensively that he did at the outset with the magic great there's also a lot of evidence that suggests if you want like a great deal of offensive sophistication say for example trying to fit all these weird awkward players together who are like talented but we really don't know if they work he's not going to be able to get them to buy in defensively so i'm not really sure that um the number one thing that mosley brought to orlando which was we're going to try really hard and be super physical defensively yeah even fits with like it's true williamson queen front line like it just doesn't seem built to play that way and i'm not sure what their vehicle to being like an okay defense really is but i'm not sure if they're schematically personnel wise any of that um here's the thing about the west and tell me if you disagree i think like seven to ten in the west is pretty open in the sense that like we can pen in if you want the same top six in whatever order from last year oklahoma city we know san antonio denver another team has not done much of anything in the offseason but they're denver uh the rockets the wolves i think the lakers will be rock solid i don't love what they did in the offseason but i think they'll win enough games after that it's like the teams that were in this range last year portland they all of a sudden have like some questions including like what the hell is going on with their arena situation and by the way i am not well versed in it like the local guys there i've been reading the stories about the county the state the city the lease agreement all of this portland is an awesome nba market with some fun nba history the nba needs to not fuck this up do not let this guy come in here and hijack this franchise and remove it from portland and leave the pacific northwest naked of nba teams until and unless seattle comes in portland's an awesome market their fans are better than this they don't deserve this uh phoenix like we'll see they do some interesting things you know we'll see how how good they are i think like depending on lebron i think there's like some pretty severe downside risk in golden state right now with how that team is built um so i did all of this is to say i actually think one of the things that i think these teams that we're going to talk about could be like oh they have home court in the play-in how did that happen i think the west at the east is better than the west the east is not the two best teams are in the west yes although the champions are yes it's a fair caveat yeah the east has 11 legit good teams and the west i think is a little shallower than that it's crazy to think i can't remember the last time when that was the case uh i'm just i'm so used to pretty much comprehensive western conference dominance as these things go relatively speaking but yeah that that spy you isolated there's not a lot of reason for optimism in terms of any of those teams making a huge jump forward as far as like the blazers and the suns and the warriors in that mix and so i i do think one of these teams that we're talking about is going to mess around and get pretty favorable play in position i just would be shocked if it's the pelicans given everything that we've seen from them and maybe that's aspirational on my part because i think the thing i would love to see from new orleans most and maybe the thing that i would love to see from new orleans most is the thing that i would love to see from new orleans most and maybe from jamal mosley most is just a commitment to playing derrick queen more like the the whole situation and like less april more march he got in more at the end of like very end of the season but why in a season going nowhere is derrick queen playing like 20 minutes a game like that that feels like antithetical to everything the pelicans should be about at this stage and i frankly don't know if he and zion work together i don't know if they ever could work together i'm just not basing my future off zion williamson anymore from the pelicans and so like they need to get fears and queen in particular on the court together as much as they possibly can to see if that's anything that's workable at all because the rest of it just hasn't gone anywhere that's why i mentioned that fears murphy jones queen quartet is like that feels like a structurally like like normal sound yes set up to try to figure out what you really have in fears and queen which you did not have a first round pick in this last draft by the way that trade is simplified now as you mentioned zion like he was very good last year but i talked a lot about this on the pod he was sort of it was a new world for him we're like okay we have this center who's going to initiate a lot of offense am i in the dunker spot now am i ducking in do i not get to like there was not nearly as much point zion as there was during his prime and it was any it's not like he's offering you any shooting of any kind to space the floor it was just it was just a little bit you know wonky all right so you made fun of my pick that's fine you can pick third uh you're welcome to make fun of this pick i might make fun of it myself if the circumstances were any different but i am here as shocked as anyone that i will be selecting the ship chicago bulls with my second pick uh i think this is the highest i've ranked them in any exercise of any kind since i don't know in the last like 15 years it's been it's been a tough run for the bulls but we are now here hopefully on the other side of it uh bryson graham regime is in place and i assume at least 70 percent of the reason you are doing this is because of caleb wilson i mean holy like i i've become a believer so quickly i think here's what it is with caleb wilson for me he is the bizarro pat williams in that he looks the part and he dazzles in a way that makes you want to believe that this is real like that the high water marks of everything that he can do it's like i am talking myself into it every single day hoping that he turns into some like super wing paul georgie combo forward who's also a rim protector and a switchable defender like i just he could be so much and and really it is him but it's also the combination of him and manas buzellas together another prospect i'm really high on where if those guys can prove or show any indication that they can like amplify each other this thing's going to start going somewhere pretty quickly you nailed it Those guys at the forward spots are the reason I had Chicago pretty high too. I was going to pick Washington first, but, but I had them pretty high. Those two at the forward spots are, if they can sort of just be like almost interchangeable, like we can both do a little bit of everything. So depending on how the possession is flowing, I'm on the ball, I'm setting a screen, I'm spotting up for three, I'm attacking a closeout running like hell in transition. I was super impressed with Caleb Wilson's passing in transition in summer league. I do think, and none of this, none of this is to say that Caleb Wilson won't be awesome. I think he will be awesome. I do think I was a little less like blown away by the summer league stuff because the threes, we'll see, right? Like he made as many threes in one summer league game as he did in an entire college basketball season at UNC. I had the flashback to like Zion's first NBA game where he made like five threes. And everyone was like, Oh my God, Zion can shoot threes and he just did not make any for like two years. We'll, we'll see. I thought his off, I thought his off the dribble stuff, you mentioned like playing the three being a Paul George, being a ball handler. I thought it was like a little stilted and very reliant on athleticism and just like lanky arms and awkwardly flailing towards the rim and getting calls. Yeah. Part of the reason he got a lot of calls is because he is super athletic. He does have super long arms. People hit him and he forces people to hit him. So I'm just interested to see how that sort of development of, of like Caleb Wilson, full-blown three in the NBA actually goes. Yeah. But yes, I, I couldn't, I, I'm very excited for this team. I think they're built to play super fast and just be fun to watch on offense. I don't think they're going to be very good. Let me see what their fan duel line is. I mean, I, I, I would not, it was in the twenties somewhere. They don't organize this enough, but, uh, 26 and a half, that feels about right to me because as exciting as they are, if you're, if you're going to start Josh Giddey, this is just projected Josh Giddey, Norm Powell, good signing. Yes. Zealous Wilson, Claxton. And then off the bench, you have Trey Jones at the point, rock solid Jalen Smith at the five rock solid as a backup, but everything in between that is just like a big old shoulder shrug slash really. I got to put in Patrick Williams again. I got to put in Isaac Acuero again. Uh, I think they're going to be like Dilley is still here. Uh, and it's like, I think they're going to be pretty bad, but interesting bad. And that in itself is just a world of change from where the bulls have been. And I think some of it's that for me, I'm just so used to being down and sour on this team and there'll be two weeks where they're kind of fun to watch and then it'll get just kind of real sad really quickly. And Caleb Wilson changes a lot of that. Also, like, I think this combination of players makes me a little more excited to see Josh Giddey this year and some of them might even be Tiago splitter in the coaching job there where Giddey and Denny Avdi are very different creators and drivers. But as far as like, how do you make the most of a sort of like non-traditional point of attack, we've seen some evidence that that could be the case. I think one thing you also need, if you're going to have a non-traditional creator, handling the ball a lot is like, who are the guys around him who have like zero hesitation in their games? Uh, Norm Powell has never hesitated in his entire life to take a shot, like the aggressiveness and the focus of a guy like him on the wings. Plus what you're getting from Wilson. Like, I think those are the kinds of guys you want around Josh Giddey. And so Josh Giddey, not my favorite player. Think he's good at what he does, but clearly limited. This to me feels like a fuller picture that could actually maximize what makes him unique and special. And everything you said about Caleb Wilson, defensively switchability, rim protection. That's all going to be legit. He is going to be an awesome multi-positional force and eventually they're going to build this team to switch. All over the place. They already are kind of starting that with Klaxon at the five, although his switchability has kind of waned a little bit. I think I'll have a post Brooklyn bump in effort and engagement. I was wondering that cause I mean, it's been years now since he has had frankly, any reason to try and he's still super young. I don't want to like write him off, but I, I don't just take it on a faith that all that's just there and not papered over with bad habits. I think we're going to need to see it a little bit. I don't disagree. I will say, um, Screening and rolling hard to the rim with the collection of ball handlers that were allegedly going to pass to him in the last two years, I think probably sapped his energy, um, a little bit. And look in summer league, there were possessions that were playing Swain. I'm just going to ignore that Swain shot 13% at summer league. Like it was a little alarming. Oh my finishing was a little alarming, but they were asking him to play the point and like stuff he's not going to do, but they would have Swain Wilson, Noah Senge, who finally got some real minutes in summer league. Looked pretty good. It's like, I'm like mildly curious offensively. It was kind of a mess and a center and you could just see like the collective length on the floor defensively was like, it was a real obstacle for these teams trying to judge arms everywhere. And I don't know what any of those players are going to be in terms of swaying and a Senge Senge is a little clumsy. I thought offensively, but has some length and some skill. Uh, I just think they're going to be fun to watch and bad. And guess what? That's not a bad place for them to be. Would you like to have, I would assume newer Kobe white or more than. You got in return for them. Sure. Did they, did they like blow every transaction from Levine to Rose and all that? Yes, they did, but they are here. They control all their picks. They have easy paths to cap space. They are a sleeping giant again, which is good for the league. Um, all right, let's take a quick break and then I'll make my this episode is brought to you by service. Now, look, I have my dream job. I get to watch basketball, think about basketball, talk about basketball, but even dream jobs have the stuff that nobody dreamed about the busy work that gets in the way. Of the actual work service. Now's AI specialists tackle that work request handled cases, close the whole thing done. So you have more time for the work you actually want to do for me. That's breaking down SGA film whenever I want, and then talking about it into a microphone to learn how to put AI to work for people. Visit service now.com gray roots. And during the chat uninvited Garnier's got you Garnier color sensation. Retouch covers up to 100% of grays in just 10 minutes. No ammonia, no mess. And the color sensation. Color lasts up to four weeks. It's as easy to apply as shampoo. Plus it's vegan and cruelty-free 10 minutes, sensational color, sensational price with those savings. Your next girl's night is basically free. Find your perfect match at walmart.com or at a store near you. Next pick. Oh, by the way, speaking of Caleb Wilson and free throws, what did you think of the one, three free throw for all the points, a gambit in summer league, which they've also done, I believe in the G league before. Yeah. I can't say I have like a particularly strong take on it, uh, conceptually, I, I am, I understand what it would do for the game in practice. I found myself like, is this really even worth changing anything? Like, is here's where I'm coming down. We can either do this or we can just cut every replay review in half and that would save just as much, if not more time. So why don't we just do that instead and keep the flow of basketball? Like the flow of basketball. I, it, I'm, I need, I need a month. I need a month before I weigh in again on replay in sports because I'm so angry about VAR. Um, I was already ready in the NBA. It's just like, we just, I just can't have this anymore. I'm ready to live with human error again. Yeah. And then the disgrace of the world cup, um, uh, made me want no more reviews. Uh, did you have a team in the world cup? No, mostly watching dispassion dispassionately. I have to say if that at all, mostly just checking in here and there, but. As those things go, like calling offsides by like three hairs on a video replay review. Don't get me started. Don't get me started on hairs, hairs and offsides. I was cheering in the end. I was cheering for Spain because I thought they were the only mega power team that did not benefit from complete bullshit officiating at any point in the tournament. Uh, I, I, I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous and stupid. I hated, like, I, I thought English. And you come at me, okay, come at me. I thought the referees literally stole the quarter final game from Norway. There's like, we don't want Norway to win. We want England to win. We're going to disallow this goal on an egregious flop. We're going to ignore the ball. Maybe, maybe not hitting the I just, I, okay. I can't. Okay. I'm going to make another pick. Now I'm going to pivot from what my pick was going to be. Cause I want to talk about the Dallas Mavericks. So I'm going to pick Dallas who I think is clearly the best team of this group. They're over under is set at a surprisingly low 34 and a half. When's again, I think that reflects the, you're just not going to walk into 15 easy wins against teams that are trying to lose anymore. Um, this team obviously, uh, is interesting for tons of reasons. They have the reigning rookie of the year. You and I both voted for him in the end. Uh, they have Kyrie Irving coming back from injury as both, I think a very popular and important member of this team if they want to compete for a playoff spot. And like I said, I think a high end play in spot is just sitting there for them. This is the team I was thinking of when you brought that up, like they, they really could find themselves in that position in part, just like going from with all due respect, like the Brandon Williams level ball handlers to having Kyrie Irving back on the court is just like such a monumental difference in the baseline functioning of this team. I think it will help Cooper flag a lot, obviously. And so like I Kyrie Irving could be the most interesting trade piece on the market during the season. I just would not rush into that discussion because I think this team partly because they don't control their first round pick, um, is, is very motivated. to try to make the playoffs and they obviously just are stacked with combo forwards, you know, they, in addition to drafting Meriz Johnson, they picked up Satya Aldama and they just picked up Zachary Risa Shea, the number one pick in the 2023 NBA draft or 2024, some recent NBA draft over Alex Sarr, Steph Castle and Reed Shepard in what looms as just a massive sliding doors moment for the Spurs, maybe for the Rockets, definitely for the Hawks, not quite as much, I don't think for the Wizards, but having Risa Shea over Castle and Shepard over Castle is, and having Castle fall to Victor Wembanyama's team as a result is just like, we can't undo that. Like the amount that that swung the balance of power in the league and in the West. I mean, this team, look, they're obviously, depending somewhat on Derek Lively's like, like ability to run and jump. Yeah. They obviously just have a lot of, of good players. You know, PJ Watson's a good player. The guy, Najee Marshall's a good player. Really good. They have probably too many combo forwards, but that's fine. They picked up Marcus Astor for nothing, which I liked and they're just gonna be like a competent team across the board. And they have two very high end players in Kyrie Irving and Cooper flag, which is rare for this group. So obviously they're intriguing for that reason. What did you think of let's talk blue door Zachary should say second round picks. Sure. What do we think of this? Where do you, what's your most interesting sort of angle on that trade? I mean, I think from the Mavericks perspective, it's just, they've proven to be one of the most opportunistic teams of the summer. Like since Messiah's Yuri took over picking up Santi Aldama for what's like a heavily protected first and some pocket lint, and then getting in on this trade for look, Zachary reason Shay was maybe at best invisible for large portions of last season. It's a real problem in his game. Like he doesn't have the kind of force in his creation. That insists in sway into the action. He can just kind of like fall by the wayside. Maybe that can be fixed. Maybe it can't, but it's exactly the kind of opportunity the map should be all over. And just like, see if this works, see if he can play, see if a guy who at his best is like a nice flow forward can work off of Cooper flag and work off of Kyrie Irving. I think there's reason to believe that that might be possible. And if all it really costs you to get in on that as like Ryan Nem hard and some like transactional ballast, like I just think that's an opportunity that's probably too good to pass up for them. But it's a no brainer for Dallas, despite the fact that research because he's the number one pick makes about the mid level of exception. This is not like a trivial piece of salary to put on the books. Now they have some optionality with that. Like they don't have to pick up his option and they could decline it and still resign him and all of that. You know, he has shot 36% on threes in two NBA seasons. That's like not bad and it feels bad and it felt bad because when the games got tough, teams clearly just decided we're guarding you with our weakest player and we're just going to ignore you. And Quinn Snyder yanked him out of the starting five and then basically stopped playing him in the postseason against the Knicks. Let's let's do let's flip it around. Would you have done this trade if you were the Hawks? It feels like selling low on reasons for sure, but they have so much else going on. I think I might. And here's here's the reason why. Like. It's a very simple. Way to view these things in terms of how you evaluate teams. But it's what I think about is like, what are you like to play against? And I think the Hawks were establishing themselves as like a really good, really formidable team. A team that knew what they were doing, that finally figured out like how to play through Jalen Johnson and CJ and Akil really effectively. But what they've got going on a defense like Dyson Daniels to kill Alexander Walker, now Lou Dort, Kingston Fleming's in this group, too. Like that is a full on fucking lockdown like that is handcuffs and a straight jacket and a weight around your neck. And I think that's a really good thing. I think that's a really good thing. for the Spurs matchup and was taken down in minutes and they got destroyed in his minutes against the Spurs. And then Isaiah Joe, who would always fall to the fringes of their rotation in the playoffs. They still face enormous bills going forward once they extend Case and Wallace, depending on like team options for some of their young guys. And I don't know if you saw Sam Presti's interview with the Oklahoman. I sure did. What was, you're laughing. What was notable about that to you? I mean, I don't know that I've ever seen a general manager get in front of what feels like an ownership promise in this particular way of, look, Lou Dort had been a trade candidate for exactly this reason. Like, okay, so he was close enough to the second apron. Lou Dort's contract was the most convenient way to get there if they wanted to make that kind of trade. But Sam Presti going on the record, something he does pretty infrequently, especially in this kind of interview setting and saying overtly, this is a financial decision and it was made with the assumption that we're going to be more competitive and pay out more down the line. We're saying all the quiet parts out loud in a way that I really appreciate. I was, I very much appreciated it. It was, I don't, I don't know how to read it because Sam has been there forever. He has the leeway to do whatever he wants. He has presumably a fantastic relationship with ownership. And I would guess that ownership did not read that and express any shock, surprise that he said it out loud. But he did say, it is my understanding that the savings we are having now and by being under the tax in some reason, years will be reallocated to future teams, which is great news for case in Wallace. If I'm his agent, I'm like, all right, woo, let's go. And down the line, AJ Mitchell, when he becomes extension eligible, I look, obviously Jalen Williams, wing Jalen Williams, J Dub needs to stay healthy now because their margin for error has shrunk. And look like this was a team that was like ridiculously deep and now spots 10 to 15, which is like, talk about a first world problem are first round picks and Kendrick Williams and or first round picks that missed all or most of the last season or two seasons in Topich's case. And so they're going to have to play those guys and see what they are, which is that's good. That's what that's like good opportunity. I think for the Thunder and those players, I still think this would be my favorite to win the championship as of now, if everybody's healthy, but the number one seed is there for the Spurs to get this year because I don't think the Thunder are going to pile up regular season wins. But I don't know. If this is the directive to cut costs and get under the second apron, I don't think any of these players are so essential that it should impact like the Thunders championship equity and it hurts their depth. But if this is what you got to do, you got to do it. It's whatever, whatever. They got some picks. They got, I don't know. We'll see. We'll get to see Mara and Topich and Sorber and Sturtz. Let's go. That's the thing. Like some, like some of them may be a little further down the line. Sturtz may like take a little time to really be an impact player for them. But like Topich could be good and a very, very different kind of playmaker than they've had as far as like working around Shea and certainly when J-Dub was out. I also think like part of the reason the Isaiah Joe move happened in the first place is Jared McCain just like so clearly supplanted him in the first place. Love Isaiah Joe. I think all three of these guys who the Thunder have had to part ways with are valuable players, especially to teams with less expectation than the Thunder have. Then it's like what Isaiah Joe can't do, what Lou Dort can't do, what Aaron Wiggins can't do. It's just less damning. If you're mostly trying to advance in the playoffs as opposed to win everything. And for a championship team to have like three or four question mark guys off the bench, but all question mark guys with lottery pedigrees for the most part, that's a pretty thrilling regular season project to have, especially for people like us who are trying to figure out who they can be, where their ceiling might change. Like I'm not taking it off the table that their depth might be even more impressive next season if those guys start panning out. All right, we got five teams left in our draft and it's getting ugly now. The team's the best, the most fun teams are off the board. I'll go, I guess you disagree with me on New Orleans. It's your pick. Well, I think there's still one very fun team off on the board. I can only be myself. And so I will select the Washington Wizards. There you go, baby. They got to be here. Just a radical influx of talent around what was already a fascinating young core. That talent may not to be to everyone's liking. There may be 212 million reasons why long-term it might not work out. But in the short term, I think the playmaking of Trey Young in particular is just going to do so much for guys like Keyshawn, guys like Alex Sarr, guys like Trey Johnson in terms of everyone in Washington felt overtaxed in terms of how much they were being asked to handle the ball last season. And now you have a great passer, if also a flawed defender and everything else that comes with Trey Young, setting those guys up in a way that to me is very exciting. They're a no brainer pick. I actually had them above Dallas, but I just wanted to talk about the trade. They're over under is 34 and a half, which I don't really know what to do with. Because if Trey Young and Anthony Davis play 65 games each, again, you can scoff fine. Like it's July 21st. I can dream of Anthony Davis playing 65 games. Let me do it. That's a pretty like those are two of the top 30 players in the NBA maybe is Trey Young. A top 30 player, Anthony Davis and it's healthy. Anthony Davis is way above that and a great two way player. And they just, you know, like you start Trey Young, this wildly exciting rookie, AJ de Banta, who looks ready to contribute immediately on both ends of the floor. He actually defended in summer league SAR and Davis. And you just pick up your cool of Bali trade, Johnson, Keyshawn, George, whoever, then off the bench, like some combination of those guys, Aiden's here for whatever reason, you know, above Carrington, who's still here. Will Riley, like they have real talent. I can see why the numbers are skeptical. It's the wizards. They're still super young around Trey and AD when AD is not playing. I think defensively, there'll be pretty challenged, but there's a lot to like here. Don't you think? I think there's a lot to like, I think when 80 doesn't play, they're going to need to figure out the defense. When he does play, they're going to need to figure out the spacing. If it's him and SAR, especially to Bonso too, who we're going to need to see kind of who he is as an NBA shooter. I don't know how all that part works out, but I like they were just such an abysmal offense in terms of acting like a professional basketball team last season. There's a lot of guys whose individual talents I believe in, and I'm hoping this can be, you know, we talked about Cooper flag and kind of who he became by the end of the season. I think part of the reason that was true was the Mavs fast track that by like making him their point guard for stretches early in the year. And I thought the skill development really paid off later when everything was kind of coming together. I'm wondering if the same can be true of some of what we saw last season from a guy like Keyshawn George, for example, like it was messy then. It's probably still going to be messy. These guys are still young, but in terms of him and Bilal, even Bob Carrington, to a degree, I actually think this is going to be like a real big time, we'll Riley season. And we're going to be talking about him differently by the end of the year. But I can't wait till I can't wait till that gets aggregated in Washington, the NBA analysts, big time, we'll Riley season loading. I mean, Riley is going to be a problem. Like we'll Riley was a problem in the last few months of the season and he got to summer league and he was like, I'm shooting every shot. And I loved it. And also I think, I mean, look, he clearly has some, some on-ball juice in a way that is fun to watch and could be good for them. I also think, I think he is a, he's going to be a better spot shooter than he's been now that there's some functioning offense to play off. I like, he feels like one of those wings who could be really good coming off the bench and will be, but also could play with Trey and ad and kind of the big boy was starting lineups to the extent that that's an actual thing. I don't think I can take the over on 34 and a half quite yet. I'm not even asking you to just too good in too deep. Just to take the over on hope, you know, just to take the over on intrigue. Can we do that? I will say, give me, give me all the Debanza Trey young inverted pick and rolls because Debanza's pick and roll game looks ready for prime time in terms of the force that he plays with. And that's the question about the team. And I've talked about it before is, is there an in-between world between extreme Trey? Ball, like Trey young does everything. And this fantasy world where Trey young is gonna run around like Steph Curry, which is never gonna happen. And he had some comments recently about how he's such a willing off ball player. He actually finds it funny that people think he's not. And I'm like, okay, those big words, man, like you really haven't dialed into that. I don't know like what film you're watching or what game you think you're playing, but you have like, kind of flirted a little bit at times with moving off the ball and like, that Trey, young standing at half court has some value to your spacing. He has flirted a little bit with setting some ball screens. It didn't seem like he really loved doing it. Well, let's see it, man. If you think the criticism is so ridiculous as to be funny to you, then let's like, let's see a little bit more of that. Cause I think the team would benefit from your presence and your distribution, making everything easier for the young guys, but also you letting the young guys stretch their wings a little bit by not controlling every single possession on the floor. I do think as far as those kinds of things go, not to get into a business of just defending Trey young at every turn. I think it's a pretty dangerous business. I think Trey young's underrated. I'm not trying to even criticize Trey young. I think he's like pretty, pretty wildly underrated. I think people have just kind of largely forgotten how amazing a playmaker he is and kind of the effect he can have even on a young team that's coming up and what he did with the Hawks. But in this case, if you're trying to convince a veteran star to change their habits, in some cases, it might be difficult to do it when you're other young players. are involved like a veteran changing for young guys can be a tough sell but AJ DeBonsa's talent is so obvious. Like he's such a clear downhill threat all the time that if you're telling Trey Young, we want you to move off ball, we want you to set off ball screens, we want you to run inverted pick and roll. Just sometimes. As a part-time job moonlighting, I just think that's a little easier to do when if you're Trey Young, you can believe in the guy you're selling out for. And AJ DeBonsa is a worthy talent for anyone to kind of like make some compromises in their game for. How about a Trey Young, Alex Saar pick and roll, flip it back to AJ DeBonsa, it becomes an AJ DeBonsa, Anthony Davis pick and roll with Trey Young running to one of the corners. Like give me stuff like that. By the way, another thing about Trey Young, and I don't mean to pick on him because I do think he's underrated. I like him. I am getting tired of him. If you read interviews, he's always like, when he's talking about the young players and how he can coach them up and this and that, he's always like, you know, when you've been to where I've been in this league, like you've learned, he's like, I'm paraphrasing, but it's like a lot of, when you've done, what I've done and been where I've been and been where I've been is a phrase that comes up. You know, you've learned some things like, okay, man, like it was one conference finals five years ago in a weird, like post COVID, like during COVID kind of season when Ben Simmons like melted into a puddle on the floor. And like, let's just like take it easy. Sure. It's not like you're a grizzled three-time champion or somebody who's been in the finals. Just take it easy. Okay. We got four more teams to go through. We'll take a quick break and we'll, we'll do that. This episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a two percenter. Learn more at wellsfargo.com forward slash active cash terms of play. This episode is brought to you by NOS, energy, every ounce of dirt, sweat and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised every lap, every race, every hard fought place. They're all jammed inside every can of NOS energy, high performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the streets. Go ahead. Crack open a can of NOS energy and get after it. Okay. We have the Clippers, the bucks, the Kings and the nets. Get excited, Rob. Before we do that, I have a very important announcement to make. Oh, what you got? Do you remember as you're a Simpsons fan, correct? Or are you not? Are you a Simpsons hater? I'm not a hater. I am agnostic. Do you, are you aware of the board license plate bits bit from the Simpsons? I am. In fact, are you aware that I repeatedly and feverishly urged the thunder to strike some manufacturing deal where they produced novelty miniature door to license plates and put them in their gift shops and the thunder and the thunder did not do that. Yeah. Cowards that they were. They did not take your advice. Now, one thing they did do was make this license plate for me, which says Dort and it's autographed by Lou Dort and it's an Oklahoma license plate. It's one of my treasured pieces of basketball memorabilia. It hangs back there in my background. I'm just going to say I have relayed this idea to the Hawks already and they seem a lot more receptive to it than the thunder were. And. If they do this and it sells, I don't even want a percentage. That's my Pulitzer prize. If this happens and the, and the Dort license plate becomes a sensation, you can put it around the chains that the kids like. You can put it like it just, there's a, there's a whole host of opportunities. I have talked to the brass there. They are having a marketing meeting this week. They seem interested in it. This is my Valhalla. This is, this is a PR if this were to, and if it doesn't happen, then they just have to trade. I'm doing more creative team. You can put it on the chains that the kids like is just, I mean, that that's an all time pull from this pod. Just incredible stuff from you. I have to say though, I mean Atlanta's front office on the younger side, as these things go, do you, do you find yourself having to explain the symptoms? Simpsons bit more? No. The people I floated it to were aware of the joke and, and also not for nothing. If you're going to go all in on the, the gentlemen's club promotion that got nixed by Luke, Cornell, net and the powers that be last year, this seems like a walk in the park. I mean, if you're creative enough to go there, why am I blanking on the name of the club? Magic city, magic city. Of course, if you're going to go there, which I have no stance on, I was just generally like, this seems fun and, and interesting. This is a no brainer. Okay. I, my next pick is also a no brainer out of the Kings, the bucks, the Clippers and the nets by far, the most interesting and intriguing to me are the Brooklyn nets. I am excited for the nets. I'm excited for, for what Yegor, Joman, Jemin did in summer league. I just, I'm excited. Like they're starting five could be, probably will be McHale Brown, jr. Joman, Michael Porter, jr. Julius Randall and day Ron sharp, finally getting a chance as a starter. Yeah. Off the bench. It's just a pile of young players that I'm kind of interested to see what they are. Joman looked awesome in summer league. The veterans fit. I don't know what they're going to do with those veterans. That's part of the intrigue. There's already buzz out there that like if extension, talks to Michael Porter jr. Don't go well, could he be on the move already? And boy, could he fit in a lot of different places? Detroit comes to mind. Even Atlanta comes to mind. Absolutely. Et cetera, et cetera. Keon Ellis is here for some fun veteran presence. There's just, there's a, there's like a lot of fun. I think, I think Joman is going to be a very, like a good pick at eight. I think he's going to end up being a good value pick at eight. I'm super interested in him playing on and off the ball. I think this team's going to be fun to watch. I mean, Yegor, I thought, I thought at summer league, not only was he good, but he just felt like one of the guys that is too good to be there, but also one of the guys that's on the verge of something. You could see his game just kind of like solidifying under him in a way that he and Michael Brown, I think are just going to compliment each other so beautifully. It's one of my favorite combinations in terms of like this dynamic downhill guard and this bigger, lankier playmaker where Yegor Joman may never get to the basket as much as other people or anyone might like. He may never get to the basket much at all. I really don't know. But as long as you put him with, with a more dynamic slasher who can work off the dribble and get into those spaces, I think it can really work. And so those two guys working together, very exciting in a way that I don't know that like any like combinations of Nets players have been. And that was to me, one of what was really holding them back last year was they have all of these guys who are supposed to be potentially useful playmakers down the line, potentially useful NBA players. I didn't really see any combination of them that felt like they were additive together. And this is the first time that it feels like they are taking a step in a direction where these young players are complimenting each other. Yeah. Troy, Ori Powell, Sarah Wolf is just like, okay, well we'll see. Like I think Wolf could be a good backup big just because of his creativity and his ability to shoot the three. The others are just like, I'm in, I'm interested. I'm interested. Yeah. Like I'm a little, I am a little worried that like, are we bringing in Keon Ellis? And is he going to stand in the way of guys like Drake Powell getting further opportunity? That's that's a concern. But like, I guess maybe there's going to be time and room for everybody with this group. I believe they extended Jordy Fernandez in the off season. And so he should feel less pressure to chase wins. The, the over under is 23 and a half, which is pretty ugly, uglier than I thought it would be, but I get it because the East is competitive. No one is tanking. We don't know if the veteran guys are even going to be on the team. The other variable is they do not control their first round pick. Houston has the right to swap picks with Brooklyn, which looks like an extremely valuable chip for the rockets, but the nets still have just a pile of extra stuff from Philadelphia. From the Knicks from the nuggets at some point, they're going to strike in free agency. And I think their, their best case scenario this year is their young guys actually look good enough to be somewhat attractive to somebody who's looking around for a place to go. It's still New York city. The Knicks winning the title is a disaster for the nets and their perception and their level of fandom and all that. I just think, I think this backcourt, I think they have a chance to have their backcourt of the future set in stone with Brown and Joman. It's very early, but already they've elevated themselves well above the other guys. And that's enough excitement for me. Yeah. I wonder if those guys do click, could they be one of the teams that's in position, not just as like a potent, like a free agency destination, but to be in the trade market, Jaron Jackson, junior kind of trade talks, right. Of like late in the season, flipping Julius Randall into something else, flipping Michael Porter, junior into something else, like finding the piece of the guy who, as you say, he's either going to be extension eligible or ready for the next deal. And their team may not be the most eager to pay them, but here it could make sense if they work with those two guards. That's something I would have my eye on for sure with them. And I think Jordy is a very good coach too. Can I ask you a Nets related trivia question? Oh God. Sure. So we talked about Nick Claxton. Now the Chicago bulls, he has been holding down that starting center spot for a long time for the Brooklyn Nets. Do you remember before Nick Claxton became the starter of the Brooklyn Nets, who their last previous starters, were at the five. So the post there's a, there's a gap between Brooke Lopez and Nick Claxton. There is of, and this is of the, like, I would say this is probably more of the Kevin Durant Kyrie post James Harden, but James Harden may have also been involved. Well, Blake Griffin flirted with that status at one point, particularly in the playoffs, but I'm guessing he's not who you're at, who you're aiming at. No, he is. It was a platoon job. Blake Griffin, LaMarcus Aldridge, Andre Drummond that year. Right. L.A. I forgot about L.A. A truly strange and. somewhat cursed time in Nets basketball history, but also kind of glorious in its way. I remember it fondly regardless. But on the line, it's all on the line. Okay, Clippers, Bucs, Kings, who you got? I guess I'm taking the Clippers, but I don't feel good about it. I feel just less bad about them than I do the Kings or the Bucs. And so let's go with the Clippers here, kind of by default. Any lower than that would feel somewhat disrespectful. They just have a roster that makes me cock my head to the side and say, huh. For purposes of this exercise, are we assuming that the Kawhi trade goes through? Not because we think that's going to happen, but just because if we're going to talk about the Clippers, we're talking about the Ingram, Dick, etc. version of the Clippers. Yes, we are talking about that version with all the warts that come with it, with all the strangeness of that particular group. They're going to need to figure out a lot. But there are good NBA players here. I continue to be invested in the Darius Garland experience. And seeing what he can be, this is really the first true opportunity for them to tease out what their team is going to look like with him at the helm. Keen Wagler, I refuse to be deterred based off of any summer league findings. Not too worried about it. I like who he can be as a pro. I like who he could be playing at his own pace, potentially. You just have to give him other athletes to work off of. And there's enough other interesting younger spots around the edges here to keep me really on the hook. I'm a big Yannick Conan Niederhauser guy. I am like, I would say, somewhat of a believer. And like your Jordan Miller, maybe less Kobe Sanders, to be honest. But like, there's some guys here who could be interesting. And maybe Grady Dick could be among them, too, as far as like, find a second home, reestablish your NBA value. We'll have to wait and see on him. But I guess the other one that maybe we should talk about is like, do we take it as a given that Ben Matherin is going to be back here? Or where are you thinking on all that? It's been interesting how radio silent that whole situation has been, which happens in restricted free agency. I've heard nothing. I haven't heard anything. I haven't beaten the doors down trying to figure out what's going on with Ben Matherin because when a situation like this happens, my assumption is that we'll get to September and they'll hammer out a deal that like he's probably not going to be psyched about, but everyone will do their best and move on. So I have him penciled in on the team next year. He's fine. Like, I like, I don't, I would like him as like my seventh guy come off the bench and create some offense. I'm not sure he's a starter on a good team. Could he develop into that? Sure, I guess. Um, there's that piece and just, it just, it's a weird, they're doing what they should do, which is just collect assets, take flyers on Rui Hachimura's of the world. Yeah. Um, Grady Dix, uh, Brandon Ingram feels just like we'll get him and flip him and hope to turn him into something else. Uh, I just, it's just a weird mishmash of guys and I'm not really sure what it amounts to as a basketball team. Um, but you know, the Wagler thing is interesting. Do they, do you think they, do they start him right off the bat and just say, Hey, we're going to start you with Garland. We'll figure it out or bring them off the bench. I have no idea. Yeah, I think they probably should. I mean, the alternatives would be either leaning, leaning on someone like Matherin or I guess, I guess you could start Derek Jones at the two. That wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. I think they'll start Derek. I penciled in Garland, Dunn, Ingram, Jones, Lopez as a starting five, but just in pencil, it could go in a number of different directions. You could start Rui at the four. I'd like to see them start Niederhauser. If he can come back healthy at any point this season, just like throw him into the, into the fire there over under is 28 and a half, which is pretty goddamn low for where the LA Clippers have been. And it feels, and feels right to me because as much as they probably don't want it to be, this is going to be a pretty deep rebuild for them. And they do not control their first round pick in this draft. The thunder of all teams get to swap picks with the, it's a line of swaps where the thunder are first in line. The Indiana picks are, could be in Toronto picks. If they get them, could be valuable. If they get to keep them, who the hell knows what's going to happen. And obviously they struggled with the Wagler pick falling to them, but it's, it's a, it's a mishmash. So it's not one that I like look at. I'm like, I'm really excited to see how Garland and Ingram fit together. Like I just, it doesn't feel like it's going to be very fun to watch. I think it could be worse, right? I mean, we certainly saw some rebuilding teams last season. They were just an absolute chore. I don't think it's that I just don't feel any particular pull to like pull this team up on the league pass dial. Right now, Garland is extension eligible. That, that could be interesting. I would not extend him. If I were the Clippers at a number that he, at whatever number he's going to like actually take a deal, I would not sign because I just needed him to stay healthy for longer. I think you and I is like just basketball purist guys have a soft spot for his game. He's unselfish. He's super creative off the dribble. Like just, just a change of pace of just a whirling ball of fakes and hesitations and faints and fun passes. But he's undersized and he's been hurt a lot and you got to play. But there's that. And so now we're down to the bucks and the Kings. Can I, can I just pass, pass, keep an empty roster spot. You know, I will take, I will actually take the Kings and leave you with the bucks. I just find both of these situations immensely depressing for a team. That's as bad as the Kings are. And I think they're going to be bad. There is just not a lot to be excited about unless Darius a cuff really, really pops. And I like you. I'm not reading much, you know, summer league. He took a lot of shots. He wasn't super efficient, fine, whatever. He's going to get to do whatever he wants. He's not going to be efficient this year. Rookie guards running an NBA offense are not going to be efficient. I like Nick Clifford. I think he Clifford has a chance to be like a low end starting wing on a good team. Kind of do it all smart player. Needs to be a little bit more forceful on offense. He's, he's an interesting prospect. Yes. I think most of the nice things that I would say about the Kings are either Nick Clifford related or Maxine Reno related. Like that's, that's kind of where my enthusiasm is at this point. I just worry. Maxine Reno is, and I was driving the Maxine Reno first team, all rookie train. Like I, like I was shoveling coal in the backseat in the, in the, in the caboose. Like I was on it. The caboose is not the same car that has the coal. I'm a little rusty on my 19th century train architecture. I just think he's so defensively limited that I wonder if his destiny is like a very good backup and not a starter on a good team. Obviously. So bonus is the starter here until they finally and mercifully trade him. Does anyone that will give up anything for him? I Keegan Murray is fine. Like, like again, like just an okay starting wing until he shows me a little bit more. And then it's like the Levine situation. The Sabona situation could not be more depressing. Malik Monk has like a preposterous contract. It is interesting how some of these like 20 million ish contracts when they're signed. And I think Kobe white and assume there will be interesting bellwethers for this too. When they're signed my reaction, the general reaction is like, that's kind of what you pay for. Like a good guard, a good six man monk was a six man of the year candidate. A good, and then like Christian Brown, that's what you pay for. Like a good young guard. Who's a winning player and fits with your kitchen. Then very quickly. They become. Like, oh, that's a terrible contract. It's some, not all of them, but some of them, uh, and you know, they have their first round pick right at a time when tanking is less profitable than it's ever been. Um, it's just hard. And then that, that they have no real extra, they have a 31 pick from Minnesota. That's their only like extra draft assets. So to be a team, that's going to be very bad and like almost unviable defensively. Um, to have just that one extra draft asset and not a lot of young players to be like super excited about is a pretty depressing place to be in yet. I'm still taking them here because I want to see a cuff. I want to see right now. I want to see Nick Clifford and I don't know. So I didn't want to take the Kings last. I think there's still the right choice. I mean, we're going to get into the bucks, but at least this is a team that maybe the best thing about them is that they are starting to turn the page. It's just such a gradual process, right? Like it's not just. It's not just like, Oh, we're going to get a new draft. We're going to get a new draft. were too many point guards and then to zero point guards with not enough in return uh they do have a pretty blank slate on their roster after next season and like easy availability of cap room which you know cap room is not getting you a superstar free agent these days but it's still useful get some value deals get some salary dumps pick up some draft assets which they badly need but this is the team when i think of the relegation zone and how the three worst teams are punished with lesser lottery odds than the the teams below them in the standings or right above them in the standings right however you want to phrase it this is the team that i really think of as a team that will really try to not be in the relegation zone and i'm not sure if they can get there um what do you think their fan duel over under is take a guess oh my god for the kings i would think it's got to be low i'm gonna guess like 22 22 and a half i mean they are paying zach levine and domantas sabonis like 90 million dollars and their over under is lower than the brooklyn nets that is like astonishing okay the bucks yeah i mean speaking of bleak i guess this is fitting if i'm going to take the grizzlies first in this draft for all of the depth that they have this is just a pile of dudes it's not really a roster it's a great way to put it it's exactly what i have it's just a bunch of guys it's not bunch of guys it's what happens when you make a couple of big trades you just have like okay this this is not a basketball team it's just a collection of guys waiting for flights to different places at different gates at the airport completely and i for the record i don't expect a team that just went through the honest trade in particular to have all its shit together to have a roster that makes sense that would be unreasonable it just doesn't mean i have to want to watch it and you look at this combination of players and there are some bright spots there's some guys i'm interested in certainly like i want to see you brayden burries is you know i'm interested in some guys that i'm interested in and i'm interested in some guys that i am a yaka chonas guy i am a ryan rollins guy like there are there are players here and elements here clow where i think what he could be with this team could be pretty exciting but i don't know there's there's so many i'm luke warm on there's so many that don't make sense together there's gary trent jr the 64 million dollar man uh yeah we don't we don't need to i've already belabored i've already talked a lot about them i mean just insane but let me start here do you do you think hello where and miles turner are just going to start together or is there a way out of that or for that not to happen because i really would not like it i also just don't see why it wouldn't be the case i don't think they'll start together i do think that's the place to start though because on the one hand i just want to start colo where and to hell with the miles turner thing let me just see what i have in colo where he is the sexiest prospect i got from miami i've always been a little higher on colo where than consensus um obviously the heat and spover lukewarm on him he's got something he's got something that if you can bottle it and shove him in the right directions on and off the court he's something um but then on the other hand like i have to rehab miles turner's trade value and i'm not sure i can do that if i'm bringing him off the bench and so then you're stuck asking the question of like hey should we start both of them that won't work but is it something that we can try i don't know man i like here are all the guards this team has i'm just going to try and figure out how to do this but i'm not sure i can do this but i'm not sure i can do this but i'm just going to try and figure out how to do this but i'm not sure i can do this but i'm not sure i can do this tyler hero extension eligible by the way gary trent jr caris lebert aj green brayden burries kevin porter jr ryan rollins casper shaka chonas like it's just so many guards i don't know how any of them fit together i don't know who's long for the team and who's not and that's before you get to the the swing guys like you know hakez nate ament um etc usman jangle i thought was very good for them last year it's just like too many guards kuzma's here doing a lot of work and i'm not sure they're doing something uh and they don't even really have a realistic uh i shouldn't say realistic if they extend hero at what it's going to take to extend him and this this is this is the same thing as michael border jr if you're not going to do that you should try to be flipping him immediately yeah um they're not going to have cap space this summer or the summer after that because they have all this dead money on their books from dame and then miles turner uh and they don't have a first round pick in this draft their first round pick goes to either new orleans or it's a mess they i think all things all things considered i think they did okay in the honest trade considering they waited too long to do it yeah um i just don't have any idea what this is going to amount to and it looks like a very long long road back i think part of the reason that's the case and that they feel so rudderless at this particular moment in time is just the difference between tyler hero and the kind of player you would hope to get back in a yannis trade where i agree with you they got a bunch of stuff they needed to refresh their coffers they needed just like volume of movable players and picks and stuff to work with that was that was clearly a value to them but they're going to need to figure out if tyler hero is any kind of keeper not just in the extension sense but like do you want to build a basketball team with this guy as one of kind of the load-bearing elements of it and i i just don't know that he's ever really been that guy that's not something i would be super eager to do tyler hero's good good score good creator i think like he's good he can fit in a lot of contexts he's just not the he's not the first brick you want to lay down for a bunch of different reasons and i think it puts them in a really weird spot to have to like negotiate that right out of the gate he's he's a one-time all-star who might just be a one-time all-star which is like a like cj mccollum's a no-time all-star like he's and that's a player that i've always comped him to in terms of like his standing in the league present and future very good player just like not going to drive winning on his own as the best player on the team uh it's just i again they don't control their pick rebuilding through the draft is less is is harder than it used to be under these new rules no one is going to milwaukee into their cap space if they ever get cap space it's it's it's when you actually sit down and look at the roster post yannis trade it's just a mess it's a mess and i don't even mean that in a bad way like these are bad players or they mis-evaluated the players it's just too many parts that don't fit together and i don't know how taylor jenkins is going to make taylor jenkins is a very good coach by the way i don't know how he's going to make any of this what's like where do you find room for the guys that you even like like how do you sift through this like if you really want to find an opportunity for aj green is is he going to be able to play more than 15 to 18 minutes on a team like this i really don't know well i mean the answer is you just don't play charis lebert at all i mean yeah you you don't play gary trent jr at all whoops he's making guaranteed 64 million dollars until otherwise proven you know by the league um and you just maybe take kevin porter jr and trade him to another team and just go you know rollins is a guy to me he's four million this year player option four million next year that he'll opt out of surely and then be extension eligible or something uh eligible for a new contract he's i think worth keeping around he's good if the price is right um but i just let's just go all in with the young guys um if we're in the relegation zone it doesn't really matter to us because we don't control our picks so we're not going to be able to do anything about it like incentivized to try to be out of it in a bizarro way um but it's it's uh i don't i don't i'm gonna watch a lot of bucks games i watch every team a lot i'm not gonna i'm not gonna forsake any of these teams they will be on my league pass rolodex in their normal frequency i might try to there's always a strategy rob where you can do i'll watch them against a really good team that i really love to watch and it's probably going to be a blowout or do you do the eat your balls game where it's like all right bucks kings like like let's go let's get them both out of the way now i don't i don't know but that's what it's going to feel like next year it's gonna have to be a little bit of both and i just really hope that by the time they work out in the schedule that they have filtered some of those guys out it it's not even like a young guys versus old guys thing it's just like there are elements of this roster that are not part of the future there are elements of this roster that actively distract from the players you're trying to evaluate like kevin porter jr is one of those guys where even though he might be valuable to some people in some context i wouldn't know what they're doing uh but when he's on the court he wants to have the ball in his hands and he will fight to have the ball in his hands and so if you're hoping for braden burry's to create if you're hoping for tyler here to create or to figure out who casper siakachonis could be for this team guys like the guys like him porter jr actively sort of stand in the way of that and so i i want to see who here is worth keeping and i think it's going to be a long road to get to that point to even just like let's marginalize cal kuzma let's marginalize porter let's marginalize caris lever let's make that whole process through its paces and so we're going to check in early but i'm thinking prime bucks watching basketball maybe like december early january like before it gets truly awful but after some of the initial stuff has been worked out i will say i'm glad you brought up yakuchunas again uh first of all i loved burry's in summer league and i liked him in the draft too my limited draft tape of him that i saw i was like i get it this guy's gonna be good i thought that was a good pick for them yakuchunas should not just be like a footnote that we throw in here he's a six five point guard with very creative vision um sometimes creative to his own detriment where he's throwing passes over his like literally over his head lucas style to teammates who aren't expecting them but the vision the idea the ideas that his brain registers are very unique um he also shot 42 on threes obviously low volume he only took 156 but that's something to build like they're that he could be a very interesting um that makes everybody around him better i'm interested to see him play but yeah it's going to be it's going to be rough right Bob Mahoney, you're heading to an undisclosed location for some vacation. You will not be taking your podcasting equipment. So if LeBron signs, I will not be going to you for an emergency podcast. I leave in 10 days for my sojourn. I will be taking my microphone now. I can't help it. I get a little antsy. So the microphone and the camera. Well, can I make one caveat on that front? I do want you, if in the case that LeBron walks back his dismissal and does decide to sign with the Indiana Pacers, I need you to put up the white smoke, and I will find some emergency podcasting equipment, and we must reconvene. In an internet cafe somewhere in wherever you're going to be. I don't think that's going to happen. But I don't know how many more public appearances LeBron has in the next week, but maybe one of them will be the one. All right, and then you're hopping on Prestige TV today, right? What are you guys going to be talking about? Yeah, we're wrapping up Cape Fear right now. We're angling toward the season finale. It's, I mean, very exciting, very unhinged times for an absolutely batshit show. I've had a bunch of people try to sway me on Widow's Bay as a spouse-neutral show. How violent is it? How tense is it? Does it fit the bill? What is the tolerance and appetite for light to medium horror? Zero to 1%. Yeah, it might be out. It's just like a little spooky. You know, I wouldn't say it's like deeply scary, but it also is probably the show of the year. Certainly the funniest show of the year. All right, well, we'll have to do a rundown of my thoughts on The Bear, at a later date. But Rob Mahoney, it's always great to see you. Enjoy a well-deserved vacation, and thank you for your time. Appreciate it, Zach. Thank you. All right, that's it for today's episode of The Zach Lowe Show. Thank you to Rob Mahoney. Thanks, as always, to Mike, Billy, and Jonathan on production. Thanks to you all for listening to and or watching The Zach Lowe Show. We will be back later this week with something. I have to come up with something. Got to talk about something. So we'll see you then. Thanks, everybody, and see you soon. 21 or over and president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and president in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts. Or call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files and it can create content. 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