The Red-Hot Knicks, OKC’s Beat-Up-Wemby Ploy, a Mini-Mailbag, and ‘Survivor 50’ | With Rob Mahoney, Jason Concepcion, and Mallory Rubin

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Download the Fandall sportsbook app right now and play your game. 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem called 1-800-Gamber, call 888-7879-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat Connecticut. Bill Simmons podcast live here on Netflix, Rob Mahoney is here, one of the stars of Euphoria, season three. I think you've done a great job. Coming up on this podcast, Rob and I are going to talk about nicks, calves, nicks are up to nothing. We're going to talk some OKC San Antonio. We're going to do a mail back and then a little bit later on, Jason Concepcion and Malley Rubin together talking survivor 50, three hours, last night on CBS. So that is the plan for tonight. All right. Nine straight playoff wins for the next, I'm going to start here. We had some injuries in the game last night, San Antonio, OKC. I don't know, Harper, it seems like might be back for game three, but definitely not 100 percent. And then J. Dubh, who knows, Darren Foxe, high ankle sprain, the nicks of one, nine straight playoff games. Is it fair to start thinking about the title if you're a nicks fan at this point? God. I mean, now you're just daring them, right? Yeah. You don't want to get ahead of it here. Let's look at it this way. Josh Hart came out of game one with a ton of humility and was like, I understand this isn't about me. I'm going to do whatever the team needs me to do. I'm going to accept my role in the series. And the basketball gods rewarded him with one of the shooting performances of his life. So if you're a nicks fan, I would say don't do anything that's going to get you in trouble. Be responsible out there, including not looking too far ahead, even though it is very tempting right now. Take it one game in a time, but I will say this, I thought the winner of spurs and Thunder was going to be the winner of the 2026 title. The injuries are definitely going to even things out plus the fact that the nicks have been on a heater. That was really impressed how they attacked Cleveland because at halftime, the calves had been shot that well. And yet it was a close game, which I always, I thought the next we're going to win tonight. But it was a close game and halftime and it felt like the calves hadn't gotten going. And I was like, this is interesting. Hart took 12 shots in the first half. That's a bad sign. You don't want him to take the most shots of your team. Are the calves going to make a run? And then all of a sudden the nicks went the other way they went on an 18 nothing run in the third quarter. Hart did end up taking the most shots, right? Yeah. A ton of shots. I mean, he took 21. He took the most shots by any nick, not named Jalen Brunson at any point in these playoffs. So it was. Oh my God. And was dared to do it. And I have to say, is do you think there's anything more satisfying for a role player than this than being dared to be a scorer when you don't have that reputation? You deliver in this huge way in this huge moment and you get the satisfaction of winning. You get the satisfaction of scoring a bunch of points. You get the satisfaction of proving people wrong. And you get really nice thing on the cake, just getting to rub it in constantly after every three after every live drive, it's just got to be a pretty sweet night for Josh Hart. Yeah. It's like a double middle finger. Just let him play. Really going to give me this again. I'm making him Josh Hart. I don't know if every playoff team has a guy like this, but Josh Hart is definitely the if he's playing well, the next scene pretty unstoppable guy, right? We've seen this in playoff series, we saw this in some regular season games. When he's going, they just suddenly look pretty formidable. I thought Brunson was outstanding tonight. In a way like a better game than he played in game one, even though he went on that heroic heater down this stretch, I thought the game management tonight, figuring out immediately what they were doing. Back to his old Villanova running the show kind of ways. They just dissected that that trap at the top, they were playing four and three, I liked everything they did. I got to say, I got to hand it to Mike Brown, I think the nicks were like really well coached in that game. I was impressed. Really well coached for the last several weeks. I mean, they've just looked like a team that has answers to everything that knows exactly when to pivot and how. And yeah, if you're looking at the box score for this game, it may feel like Dylan Brunson was under wraps. He was saying a lot of pressure and you're right, you're so surgical about it. And I think a huge part of why the nicks are here now and they feel as dominant as you mentioned up top is they've reached this point of stability in their offense where no one feels like a specialist. Like Josh Hart can have a game like this that's explosive, but Miguel Bridges was doing everything offensively and was awesome. Cat is driving really responsibly and hitting threes and posting up OG and an OB can overwhelm like any defender in front of him at almost any time right now. They're just in such a comfortable place because all of these guys get to be dynamic. And that's the credit to Mike Brown. But it's also a credit to Jill and Brunson for understanding how to tap in to everybody. And Bridges got going really since midway through that Atlanta series where that trade seemed like a disaster. Then it didn't seem like that bad of a disaster. Now it's like, hey, if they don't make that trade, maybe they don't win the finals. But I really like how he's playing. I thought he was really good in game one. And in general, like, you know, you have guys sacrificing all over the place on a team like this. But as you get closer, this is 10 playoff ones for them now as you get closer to the ring. Suddenly it doesn't matter. And that's why somebody like Josh Hart, who's a little embarrassing for him game one, but he's ready to go game two. There were a couple other things that happened though. The Cavs bench was was awful. Yeah. And I don't. So at home, whatever you're going to get, whatever you're going to get from your bench guys. But one of the things I liked about. So Meryl was one for eight, Shrews was one for seven, Tyson was one for four, Dean Wade one for three. We're starting was one for three. Yeah. So combined, that's 12% for those guys. Yeah. And Meryl, I thought it was interesting, they were, Legler noticed it. Legler was talking about it during the game like that he was getting a little hang doggy. And I was thinking about, you know, the half bang from game one with Meryl, the bar, whatever that was. And that not going in. And I felt like he carried that into this game. He's kind of like, I really thought he was becoming like a real playoff guy. Yeah. And like, the guy that when he was open, he just felt like it was going in. And now that felt like that's going sideways. They had to rely on Shrewder, which has been fool's gold for what 13 teams of the league at this point. And including this one. I mean, he hasn't been good for six straight games now. Like just really has not made an impact and they have to play him and he needs to handle the ball because otherwise, don't have a Mitchell and James Harden are just going to get run into the ground. So he has to be out there, unfortunately. Yeah. The things I didn't like about this Cavs team, when you just talked about, could this seem win three straight rounds? Can they guard people like Maxi and people like, like Brunson, could they guard those, kind of, the small scoring guards that give up a lot of threes, usually they're open. That's just kind of who they are defensively. They're a middle of the road defense team. You saw that today too. And it just feels like the nicks are starting to look like a bad matchup for them. The next were asleep for the first three quarters of game one, but since that had been in control of the series. And I don't, I don't know what the moves are here for the Cavs, which I, of course, said after game one of O.K.C. San Antonio and then the move was just to go big and bully and grab and pull Wendy's arms for quarters, shockingly effective if you can get away with it. Yeah. I'm not sure what the moves are here. Like even looking at the minutes, Alan played 28, and it was a minus 20, Moby played 36. They were trying that one point. They had three guards with Tyson and Moby and they were just trying all kinds of different things and they, they can never really land on anything. So what's the answer? What do they do? Well, I mean, the big question is, do you want to continue to guard Josh Hart like this? Like, do you want to try this again? Or do you have to go completely back to the drawing board in terms of the coverage? I ask this, and it may seem crazy after the game that Josh Hart just had, but it's like, if they aren't guarding him this way, they don't have a lot of defensive alternatives. Like, it's really hard to contain Jalen Brunson. It's really hard to keep James Harden from getting switched into that matchup as we saw in game one when you don't have like a Jared Allen just kind of shadowing everything on the back line. And so they have to make a lot of hard defensive decisions offensively. I just think if you're, if you're role players are shooting like this, you're going to lose. Like there's really not a lot you can do to adjust to that. So the point that, I mean, one of my favorite looks for the calves is Harden and Allen, and they put three shooters around them. Usually it's Dean Wade, Max Drew, Sam Merrill, all three of those guys. It's often like it's clean and easy as Cleveland's offense will ever look. they will rack up points for little bursts of time when that group is out on the floor. But if three of those guys can't shoot you're cooked like it kind of is that simple. Those guys are going to have to play better. They're going to have to make some kind of adjustment defensively. I actually would not bail on leaving Josh Hart just yet because of that desperation, because of the lack of alternatives. I think they should make him prove it one more time before they really go back to the drawing board on it. But look, they were going to be behind the ball in this series. The nicks have played like a juggernaut. The calves have been great survivors, but it's not as if they have all of these options to toggle between. So they, the heart decision. Yeah. I can say and after the game and in the interviews yesterday, I was talking about it was doing some 1% thing. How hard the Brunson shots were, which I agreed with. I said that after the game. I thought the shot making was extraordinary by Brunson. There was only maybe two of those times where it really felt like hard and got cooked. But for the most part, those are really hard shots. But also guess what? He's jailing Brunson and he hits a lot of really hard shots. Yeah. But I, but I guess my question is you seem like you're overreacting to the last eight minutes of the game and underreacting to the first 40. Yeah. And then they swing completely the other way and they're like, here's what we're going to do. We're leave, we're leave heart open. Once he starts making a couple, I'm getting rid of that strategy, especially at home. Like I could see doing that in Cleveland, but it just felt like the more comfortable he was getting. You know, we see this sometimes with the hack a shack. Well, they'll start doing the hack a shack and then the guy will start making them. Yeah. And he almost gets in a groove with shooting them. And then it's like, all right, stop. Like he's in a groove now. I always thought with hack a shack, you should be doing it sporadically. Like you do it. You don't do it. You do it. Like you kind of keep the guy in the heels. I would have tried that with almost treated this like a football game with heart. Where sometimes we live alone. Sometimes we don't. Yeah. And just try to mix it up. I don't sit and love the strategy. I have not loved the coaching in this series. And then there's the Mitchell piece too about, is he heard? Is he not hurt? Cause in the first quarter, they're showing us replays of him and it looks like he's dragging his leg. Then he's doing a euro step. Like what's going on with it? I think he's definitely heard. I mean, even injured players can have athletic moments. And we've seen some of those from Donovan, Mitchell, but you'll see him just like absolutely chugging, working super hard just to run up the floor on some of these possessions. So I don't know what it is that's ailing him, but he's not as explosive best all the time. He is a, like he's a great shooter. And he's so strong and his footwork is so good. He's just going to like by force of will be an impact player in a lot of these games. But I don't think he has it there all the time. And James Harden clearly doesn't have it there all the time. And this is maybe the critical flaw in the Cavs' design is with both of those guys playing that way. So much of what Jared Allen and Evan Moby do offensively is drafting off of the attention that Donovan Mitchell and James Harden get. And that's why you saw like Evan Moby put up 10 points in the first quarter of this game. Like it was nothing super easy. Yeah. All like with that, like playing within the flow of the game. Four points the rest of the way because the next change their defense a little bit overreacted a little less made these guys earn it. Also got out to Evan Moby on some of his shots too to take away the Josh Hart style open looks they were giving him. Jared Allen is kind of a similar thing like it's as soon as you contain the dribble penetration, those are not too big. So we're going to force it. We're going to put up a bunch of points unless they're working the offensive glass. And that evaporated for the, for the Cavs over the course of this game too. Yeah. Allen Moby at halftime or 23 and 10. Yep. That did not continue. And then Harden had 12 points at halftime. With about halfway through the fourth quarter, he's still at 12 points. Yeah. And it was like, what? See, you see out there, and then he had a couple, couple late kind of after the game was decided. I don't know Rob. I don't know what the move is. The Cavs have been better at home for the most part than if they did have that game six stinker. I think the variable that's going to be different this time. You're going to have next bands there. I don't know what the number is, but it's going to be more than you think in the next fans travel. Yes. They seem to be everywhere. Cleveland is just close enough to like four different cities. There will be secondary market stuff. And I have a feeling there's going to be maybe 15 20% there. So the energy is going to be a little different than maybe a Cleveland Detroit game. And then we'll see, like, is Mitchell healthy? Are they going to do the same thing with Bruce again? Is this just the next time? Like it's really starting to feel that way with the, the, the, the brunch in the way, you know, kind of flipping the, the gravity of that halbert game a year ago. Yeah. And kind of kind of resetting that. And then you see the celebrities. What a great ticket. I didn't realize it. We talked about this when I did the pot two days ago. I thought the crowds seemed pretty great. But they also mute the microphones. And there was a lot of good fan video that came out from the, from the 24 hours after the game with some of the different shots. And like that crowd was like delirious. And everybody who was there that I knew was like, that's the best crowd I've been in a while. And it just feels like that's, it's now you're down to. Yeah. You have to win game five. You have to either sweep the Cleveland games and win game five in New York, or you have to win five in seven in New York. And I, just don't see it with this cap scene. It was going to be difficult no matter what. But I, I wonder you, you raised the point of the traveling fan base. Yeah. Is this one of the new inefficiencies in the league having the Eastern Conference like regional geography on your side where you can travel, having a fan base with disposable income, who's going to make the trip to Cleveland. Right. Can we get like it? Just Timothy Shaolin. They have like a super pack where he's just like funding buses. You know, let's, let's get people over there. I just think there's an opportunity here for any celebrity with some money to spend to really make an actual impact on the atmosphere of these games. We've started seeing this in baseball in the last 15 years first. And now it seems like it's trickled in a basketball. Certainly the case with the Celtics like they would play in these random cities like Phoenix, New Orleans. And it would be like 5,000 Celtic fans there. You can see it with the next definitely. See it definitely with the Lakers, like the team, the teams with the generational fans seem like they can take 15 to 25% of a stadium for big games. So we'll see or 80% of its Philly, apparently. Yeah, it's right. Or 80%. It can be pretty bad. So we have the Knicks are down minus a 20 on Fandall. The next sweep is plus 250. It's not going to be a sweep. The Cavs are, I think they're too good for that. Sure. I mean, I'm sure I feel sure that they're supporting players in three weeks. They haven't. But here's the thing. It's like in a game like this, you see the dominoes falling where Josh Hart shooting the way he does opens things up for Jalen Brunson who then is attacking like more open coverage, spraying out to everybody. Everything is building on itself. And on the other side, Donovan Mitchell, who isn't moving super well, is now seeing multiple defenders in front of him every possession because no one around him can hit a shot. And the bigs are like trying to do the dirty work, but ultimately aren't attracting a lot of attention. If either of those things flips, right? Josh Hart makes a few fewer shots. If any Cavs role players start hitting shots, then you see the dynamic and the balance of this game shift pretty dramatically with it. I just think we're going to get one game where that's the case, whether it's the classic role players shoot better at home type of influence, whether it is like a one game James Harden explosion, whatever that looks like. The Cavs are a team that when their backs are against the wall, have responded with some of the most impressive efforts of these playoffs. So I don't want to write them off and say, we're headed quite down that darker road. Cavs and five or nix and five is plus 190 and that would be my bet because I think you're right. I think there's going to be a game where the roll guys make shots. Yeah. Even tonight, I felt especially in the first half, I thought the Cavs were getting good shots. I like the shots they're getting and they just weren't going in. They're getting open threes. They're getting good mental shots. Yeah. Moldly was doing whatever he wanted in that first six minutes. And I would like to play it. The results just weren't really there. No, unfortunately. Mike Brown for tips looking pretty good. Huge upgrade. Huge adjustment. The bridges trade. Look at all right. Towns trade. Solid. Back to a win. I mean, the shamit signing. I mean, pretty good. There's been some good moves here. I'm not exaggerating when I say the Landry shamit signing might be like a monumental move in retrospect for the next. His ability to give them important minutes to be a floor spacer. In game one, they go on that run because they have enough shooters to take Josh heart off the floor. In game two, Josh heart becomes one of those shooters, so it's not a problem. But the next bench has been awesome. And it's been awesome because it's been cultivated over the course of the entire year in a way that for all being honest about it, tips would never. You're right. There should be a basketball reference or a cleat in the glass stat. Do I think it's going in? And shamit, I think I was probably like 25% with him for most of his career. Now I think it's going in. I'm like, who is this disproportionately high on the belief versus the actual percentage? Well, in the in the spurs thunder series, I just think every facility is going in now. He might be 100. And it may, I don't know why. I just feel like, and champagne is another one, even though he wasn't good in game two. I always feel like his shots are going into, but for cell right now is an agreeable. It just doesn't seem like it matters if he's falling left, falling right, falling backwards, it's going in. Catches it in the air, whatever. Like he makes just like preposterous shots. I think those, those two guys are great. Devon Booker is another one of those guys for me who I'm always like, I feel like it's going in and then you look at the percentages and it's like mid 30s from three. It's like a beautiful jumper, but it doesn't always hit. We have Pritchard is the best Celtic for this. Every time he misses it, is that not just you? No, I just can't pull. I'm always thinking it's going in with him. Like, wait, I still haven't gotten over his corner three in the game center. So I think I still can't move that didn't go in. All right. So we, let's move to spurs thunder because that's probably a more interesting. interesting series for a lot of reason. A lot of talk about the physicality today. - Sure. - So there's two kinds of physicality, right? I like the first kind of playoff physicality, let the big boys, big boys. The stuff that was happening in this game, and you could say from the other side, if you're okay, see if we're doing it to Shay too, their opponent grabbing them, they debuted like almost a new way to defend Wembee yesterday, and I'm gonna be really interested to see how the league reacts to it over the course of the series. This is just a new territory for us. - Yeah. - If you're just pulling his arms and pulling them off balance all the time, if you're pushing his shoulders down when he's jumping, which is all stuff Heart and Stein was doing. I felt like Wembee got fouled 20. I don't have a dog in this race, I'm a Celtic fan. I don't really care who wins this series, but I also really enjoy watching Wembee, and yesterday was, I don't mind if he's getting knocked around, I thought Minnesota did a great job doing it. I thought the difference yesterday was like the pulling, the grabbing, the pushing, just stuff that just shouldn't be legal. And if you're gonna be allowed to do all that stuff, okay, so he's gonna win this series in five. So how did they react to game three? - So I think this conversation depends on who you're pointing the finger at. From the thunder perspective, I think as a competitive team, if you are not seeing what you can get away with in literally every series you play that's competitive, you're not doing your job. So I couldn't agree more horribly with that. They should have done what they did in game two. I agree that it was a good strategy. And I would say it's even incumbent on Isaiah Hartenschein in particular, who is desperate to find a way to stay on the floor in this series to see what he can do to affect that matchup. - And the answer was everything. - The answer was, I mean, yes, it was. You're right that some of those plays are like borderline dirty. Some of them are very physical. It's like walking a very delicate line of not just like what is legal, but what is like in good taste as a competitor sometimes. Great teams do that. Great teams have players who do that and can understand how to like tow it without going over too much. But the reps have to call some of it. Like this is a case where you could put together a super cut of 15 to 20 different Isaiah Hartenschein plays that are questionable in all sorts of ways. And some of them have to be called. Some of them were not enough of them. I don't even really see that as being Isaiah Hartenschein's fault. Like he is playing the game and playing his role in the way that honestly, the thunder kind of require him to play it. - I actually thought it was brilliant by him. And you could see him as the game was going on and be like, "Oh, I guess they're gonna just let me do this." - Yeah. - He was even, he was doing something that I've always wondered why guys didn't do more is pulling Wembee away from the basket on drives so that he basically to slow him up on the offensive rebound. Every time it felt like he was getting some sort of advantage. I thought it, I honestly thought it was brilliant, but I also couldn't believe the reps allotted because it was pretty blatant. It's not like you couldn't see what he was doing. And I think if Wembee, the only thing he probably made a mistake on is he just should have had his arms up like this because I think it just would have been more clear that Hartenschein was grabbing him on the sides and stuff, but it was pretty effective. And I talked about this a couple weeks ago. This is Kareem, this is an entire career. - Yeah. - Guys doing this to him, guys pushing him, guys elbow him in the back, guys trying to provoke him. And Kareem, I think punched like five different guys. I won't broke his hand on Kempence. It's face at one point. Wembee's gotten mad once, but my guess is Hartenschein will not be able to get away with stuff in game three. I am guessing these super cut was sent to the league today. - Again, that's the spurs job, right? It's like everyone is kind of needs to play their role in response to these things and figure out how to navigate them. You're, I don't know that we had a player like this who's officiating is so unique. Maybe since Shaquille O'Neill, like is there anyone in that time in terms of bigs that comes to mind for you? - Yeah, Shaq, Shaq, it just wasn't fair. He could just get near the basket and he could just turn and duck. And so they started to do, and I remember, this is where it was always tough for me to evaluate Shaq as like a top 15 guy. 'Cause on the one hand, I felt like he left stuff on the table and that he would always play himself into shape. And, you know, there was really only one season where you're like that, he was fucking awesome from beginning to end, which is his MVP season. And the other hand, I don't think it was fun to be Shaq eight months a year with the way he was guarded. - True. - And they would pull on his arms and they would pull on his shoulders. And that's why he ended up having shoulder problems. And I think with at least one of his shoulders, over and over again, he's going, he's exploding to go up and they're just kind of grabbing and pulling him down. So I would say he was probably the last guy I could remember. We were, it was a constant dialogue. And then some of the stuff that Pistons did to Jordan was probably the other big example. Other than that, before that, that people didn't play defense that way. And like LeBron has taken a lot of hits and a lot of kind of borderline hits over the course of his career, but it's totally different as a ball handler. I think this is where the Shaq, when we comparison or Kareem, if you want to loop him in, these bigs who are off the ball, trying to establish position, trying to set screens, there's just so much space for the officials to kind of like turn their head ever so slightly and miss crucial contact, crucial fouls. It's the reason why bigs in the league in general on offense are just not officiated fairly. They are not given the benefit of the doubt that guards are. I had wondered if Wembee might be the exceptions that just because of his frame. Like you were saying, if he puts his hands in the air, just like he's so thin and he moves so much, if you are someone like, as they are hard to shine, kind of pulling him out of the way, is that enough of like a neon sign saying, hey, there is a weird contact going here for the rest to finally pay attention to it in game two, it wasn't. Like it just didn't draw enough attention in the way that apparently he needed to. - The thing that I just, I love watching Wembee. I really enjoy it. That's not like Chris Collins worth. I love, I love Wembee. I love doing hope or I love Wembee. I really enjoy watching him. And one of the things I love other than how competitive he is and being an alien, landing from UFO, all that stuff. I love that he does a bitch for calls. He really does and he takes a lot of punishment and I just think he's used to it. I think this is the way people have defended him since he was 14. And I think he's probably done a mental study 'cause yeah, I think he puts a lot of thought into everything probably as much as any young star we've ever had. And I think he's realized like it's not worth it for me to be bitching all the time. I need to be bigger than this. I need to be the most physical imposing guy in the game in the league. And if I'm just constantly bitching and yapping and complaining, that gets compromised. So he took it, but Mitch Johnson did not seem like he was enjoying it. It's not seem like he was getting matter, matter, matter, and matter. And my guess is it won't be the case in game three. Well, they'll find ways to work around it, right? Like one of the things you can do is because of Wimby's skill set, you can move him anywhere on the floor. You can run him through actions like a guard if you want to. And that guys, they are hard to have to defend him that way, which is something he's not comfortable doing. I think the other part about the not complaining about fouls too is Wimby for as much as he gets hit and held and pushed. Like isn't one of these guys who is falling over all the time even on his own shots like the Joelle and Beade style? I think it's become a really cool part of his game, not just because some of that's just going to turn people off, but you see some of the tip dunks that he gets now off of his own misses. And you're only there to do that because you're not falling, you're not leaning, you're not trying to bait out the contact. Like he's moving downhill so much all the time now that he's able to clean up and get just crazy plays with a kind of geometry that we're not really used to seeing from anybody else. - Yeah, Halfson, I talked about it two days ago, just like how important that game one was for him, which we all had the same conversations. I thought SGA was great last night. I really thought he had a command of the flow of the game and when he should step in and I just thought like that's why he won two straight MVP's because the game's like yesterday. Wimby, the experience of watching Wimby, I don't remember feeling this way as a basketball fan since those early 2013, 14, 15 Curry range. Where it was just like, I can't get enough of this 'cause I've never seen it before. And with the Wimby yesterday, it feels like every game, there's something different. Yesterday it was just, he just had these crazy off-rents of rebound put backs from weird angles. He must have had like five of them. Where you're like, I don't understand how we got that. You almost wanted them to stop the game and replay it and tipping things from far away and being under the basket and reaching his octopus arm around and I think, he probably didn't even really have that good of a game for him, but it felt like he was consistently impactful in all over the place. The fox thing and then losing Harper. I feel bad for a poor castle with the 20 turnovers in two games, which I sincerely hope nobody hangs on him. He's not a true point guard. He's going against the scariest collection of defensive guards we've probably had this century. And you know, he's been sloppy. There's a little bit of a Westbrook side with him. Early Westbrook, the OKC from '08 to 2014. A little out of control, awesome one play. Definitely a few plays, we're like, oh no, why'd you do that? A tendency to be involved in the biggest player, one of the biggest plays of the game and it might be a good thing and it might be a bad thing. And like Westbrook is one of the 15 and 20 best players in the league, but it's just young and figuring it out in the fly and Fox was just so helpful for him for just being, having, being the adult in the room. It's, I think it's just so much to ask for castle to just kind of navigate that thunder defense, Jesus. It's tough, but in the same way that with, you know, a younger Russell Westbrook and especially a prime Russell Westbrook, like, what Harper gives you in terms of the fearlessness of his play, I will just take every day of the week. Right. And you take that and you try to harness it and try to reign it in like, OK, don't do these, particularly. or crazy things, or in the case of this series, he's just like mishandling the ball sometimes like he's trying to go so quickly and so aggressively through all of those Oklahoma City defenders that he's just kind of like losing it. Yeah. I think that's going to be the reality if both Harper and Fox can't play like they just don't have alternatives. Like you can throw Jordan McLaughlin out there, but it's not really going to change a lot. You need the two ball handler approach, even just to get Wembee in good advantageous positions. And so it's like it's not an accident that the fewer ball handlers were on the floor. Now it's hard to even get Wembee in the ball. It's hard to get those like a post entry passes to him. Everything just gets so much more complicated, but I trust the castle will reign the turnovers in certainly over time, but even over the course of this series, like it just can't be this terrible all the time in terms of the volume. Yeah, it's basically two a quarter. I remember in that, I think it was the 2012 finals. I wrote a piece about Westberg about the concept of a 9010 guy where the 90% is awesome and at 10% everybody's got the 10% that they're not really good at. They have some flaw. And with Westbrook, the 10% was so glaring, you always thought about it. And castle as a point guard, you can, you just are kind of aware of it. It's like, all right, his flaws, he's a little sloppy. And now that he has the ball all the time, I'm going to be thinking about this more that he's a little sloppy because he's 21 and he's going against Lou Dorit and Caruso and who's the other guy they have? Jason Wallace, Jason Wallace, I forgot about him. First team all defense. Jason Wallace, first team who just stands at mid court waiting to pick your pocket and has done that to, uh, done that to castle at least once a game. Well, if the phone castle has a little bit of young Westbrook is Dylan Harper, like the most supercharged Eric Mainer we've ever seen of like, here's the like game managing responsible guy behind. Yeah. He's alien Eric Mainer. I, I was so bummed when he got hurt. I know. Because that was another great thing about this series. You're watching Harper and real time. I talked about this two days ago that just like, this is the worst he's ever going to be and he's doing this. I was thinking about, I'd really value when a, when a young point guard can rise to this because even you think like some of the best point guards we've had Tony Parker in the 2003 playoffs. Yeah. By the end of that playoffs, he was so shaky that they were like, should they trade him for kid? Remember? It was like a whole thing. Absolutely. But the agent, do they do a sign in trade? Would this be an upgrade to get Jason? Because Parker was a young point guard and they didn't know if they could rely on him. Rondo was like that for the O8 Celtics. It was like, he was good one game, not good the next game. And for Harper to be as consistent and also impactful on both ends. Yeah. Pretty dumb funny. It sounds like he's going to play tomorrow is the word that I was hearing. I hope so. I mean, even if it's in a somewhat limited state, like they could really just use everything that he brings to the table. But when you think about those three core guys, Castle is having the most normal young player in the playoffs experience because of those walls he's running into. Harper, we really haven't seen the limits on it yet. He's still so smooth. Like, there was a play where before he left this game in game two, it's like driving one on one through Ludoord, just like one diagonal step at a time and Ludoord is just constantly backpedaling. And Dylan Harper, who again is 20 years old, just body bumps Ludoord, a living fire hydrant out of the way for a basically uncontested lap. It's like, yeah, nothing about that is normal. Nothing about Wembee's arc and his like first playoff foray is normal. So Fon Castle is looking mortal by comparison, but it's still awesome. And so if you just have to feel that we've said it so many times, but like the fact that the future of the franchise is anchored around those three guys in particular, it's just about as safe a bet as you could possibly make and as encouraging a sign in this first run as you could possibly get. I think they should win the series and I still think they're going to win this series. But we'll see with Harper. If Harper is compromised, then that's going to change the equation. Fox, the high ankle sprain, I never know what to believe with these anymore. Sometimes high ankle sprain, it's just like you're done for four weeks. And then other times it's like, he can play, it would seem as a point guard. That would be not a great position to have a high ankle sprain, especially against the thunder again. Like there's defenses you don't want to go against with any limitation. And you might have to, like if you're a Harper or Fox, but it's not ideal. They're going to be home for game three. My guess is Fox is going to be a game time decision and play. I don't know this for a fact, but it's a home game. They're probably hoping they could split the first two in, okay, seeing it come back and then actually unleash Fox and I don't know. I just feel like if the Jdubs situation on the other side, which he really look good in game one. I tweeted this that I thought game one, you know, there were casualties from playing 58 minutes at the pace that everybody played at. You knew, you knew something bad was going to happen in game two, we had two injuries, right? I think Mitchell might have gotten a little shaky too. Yeah, it's something. But Jada now seems out. I guess he's going to be out for a while. You could feel it with some of the lineups. They basically have to go, they can do the two bigs with some guards, maybe Aaron Wiggins plays a little more. I mean, I don't know. What do you do? How do you replace the minutes? Well, this is where if the officiating changes around Isaiah Hartenstein and Jdub isn't available to play, you're starting to see though, like that cascading effect become a real problem. Yeah. Because then literally who guards went be like, who are you throwing at him? We saw a little more of chat on when being game two, but he did okay, but he's not your first choice. Yeah. If Jdub can't play and Isaiah Hartenstein gets in, let's say foul trouble because of all the holding and grabbing and pushing he's been doing, we're either going to get like 28 J will minutes or like 40 Alex Karuso minutes, like it's one of those two guys is going to have to stretch really far in that matchup. And I don't know that either of them is fully ready for it. They both, you know, have things they can bring and try to make Wembe's life hard in particular and also can contribute on offense. But all of the matchups get very strange very quickly if Jdub isn't out there. He really is the critical piece that makes a lot of this makes sense for Ocasie. I actually like J will in this series. He's really good. Yeah. I like his top of the, it's a little Luke Garzaish, that little top of the key three. It's getting some guards of flash. Okay. Like Jay will try to, Jay will not be serious. Everything cannot be through the lens of Luke and Garza. That can't be what we're doing. So little Garzaish. No, but one of the things I like about him is he'll mix it up. Yeah. He got in a fight with champagne's brother in the Washington game during the weekend. Sure. I don't know if the other champagne is holding against him, but he'll mix it up. He's just in showing up in the same way that, you know, the Thompson twins were showing up for each other. In the morrisons? Yeah. I mean, you got to be possible. You got to come to your brother's playoff game. I would think it's a requirement. I thought for sure a game too was going to have some sort of altercation. And I had like a mad lives of, I had Wembee, Castle, Dort and Jalen Williams, some combination of the four of them. And maybe, maybe even some Kelly O'Linnick if he had gotten some minutes. But I still feel like I feel like this series hasn't gotten shipy enough. It's been physical, but it hasn't been, we haven't gotten angry yet. I think it could be Friday night, Friday night, little, little spurs crowd having some spirits before the game. Yeah. I'm a frisky crowd mad about the officiating game too. I think there's going to be a vibe in that game as they should be and as there should be. I'm looking at the Fandall Oz now. And I'm seeing minus 500 for a Bismek Bianbo forearm shiver to some funter player. Do you, I mean, would you take that one or what do you think the alternative is? I would love to see Bismek come in for two seconds. O'Linnick has, there's, I think you could find like a two minute video of him doing stuff in different playoff games. Most famously, when he accidentally, uh, not Kevin loves shoulder out of his socket. Yeah. That's a tough one. Yeah. Again, a lot of borderline physicality going on in the playoffs. I don't know. Yeah. The lines of what is an accident can really be blurred pretty clearly. What do you think is going to happen in this series? It is so injury dependent. I think if J.Dub is not able to play, it just, it really depends on how many ball handlers the spurs have to. I am inclined to say if J.Dub doesn't play the spurs have the upper hand in it that they, they've now taken a little, a little bit of a tilt in their favor. And I say that just because J.Dub is so important and because we saw Shay, like, read everything so perfectly, both in terms of spraying out to other players, but also picking his spots on offense, that just gets so much harder when the spurs have a chance to game plan for the reality that J.Dub is in out there. And so you're going to have to rely a lot more on Alex Caruso being a real offensive player and a scoring threat all the time, which certainly was the case in game one, but it isn't all the time. By the way, it hasn't been consistently reliable throughout the course of his career. Even the playoffs last year, he's a little Josh Hardish, Hardish, hitter, hitter miss. There's games when he just, they're not going in. Makes plays happen, but game one was literally like one of the best role player performances I've ever seen in my life, so that cannot be the expectation for who he's going to be. Also AJ Mitchell is kind of figuring out his way into the series. If as we alluded to, he's even healthy enough to go. So the next guy's up for OKC after Shay, without J.Dub, I think are really difficult. And that's in part because this is not a chat offensive series. This is not a matchup. He can be a dominant scorer in by basically anyway. So he might have a game where he has 18, but it doesn't feel like 18 because he's like, he's not forcing the issue. He's not pushing. Backing, it's just kind of like circumstantial baskets for him, I think. The series has shifted. They were dead even a day ago. Now it's OKC minus 162. So I don't know if that means there's an inside info. J.Will comes back. Awesome series, though. I mean, yesterday, other than how well SGA played, it wasn't like the prettiest basketball game, but it was dramatic and riveting. And I thought, if you're San Antonio, I didn't even feel like I played well and I lost It's Harper. midway through the game and I was still hanging around, hanging around down to with like what three, four minutes left. And I really had to make, okay, see, make some plays. And I thought SGA, you know, really did some good stuff. And more importantly, okay, C is really now settled into the role as America's villain. I think David embraced it. I think they're fans. It's us against them for the fans. This happened to the Patriots with me once you have to buy in officially. And once you officially buy in, it's great. You're just like, everyone's against us. You're just, your middle fingers are out at all times. You're constantly, you know, taking everything personally. It's a great place to be. They, they should save for this and enjoy it. So if the thunder are to borrow your framing, a little Patriotish, does that endear them to you at all? Does their villainy make him a more appealing team to you? I just, I don't like the flapping. I just am not a fan. I don't like it. I don't like when guys on other teams do it. I almost feel like the thunder are the best at it. I, you know, there's theories that they practice it. There's every game, there's 10 videos afterwards of different things that come out of it. But I part of the thing for me is I don't necessarily think they have to play that way. They're so talented. So I don't really fully understand it why they bought into that style. It obviously works for them. But I just, I don't like it. I mean, there's the two conversations of like how good are they? And clearly they're amazing. Third championship team. They played at that standard at literally every night. And then there's the how much do you enjoy watching them? And that really comes down to how much appetite you have for ignoring some of that stuff. I think if you, if you just pile up the 15% of most annoying behavior of basically any team, every team's got some stuff going on. That's that really gets under your skin, whether it's whether it's complaining the officials, whether it's the shot selection, whether it is the flopping, it just a matter of taste. And like for me, I'm willing to like overlook a lot of it because I really do like watching all the other stuff that the thunder do at just like an AA plus level. So yeah, yeah. That part is a payoff for me. But you can't just like write off somebody's experience if they say, oh, this is a, this is a bad watch. This is annoying to watch. This is not what I like to spend time doing. You know, when I'm clocking out for my day and now I got to like grind through thunder tape because it feels like through the free throw line all the time, I get why that would be a chore, but they're also fucking good. It's not quite as bad as Luca complaining after every single call. Like to me, that's a 10 out of 10. I just hate that probably the most. Not everything could be a foul on you, but fortunately, we didn't have to worry about him for that long. So mail back questions. Okay. This is from Kevin. I'm writing this the day after Wembe's 41 and 24 against OKC. If it came out that Wembe actually was an alien that he was legitimately not human at all. And we knew where to find more Wembe's like him out there with that effecture interest level in the NBA. I think it would for me if we didn't, if we had non humans. But my point with that question is somebody was convinced that Wembe might be an alien and crafted that and sent it in. That part is believable to me. The part that sent me over the top was that oh, we can ascertain where he came from and find more find, you know, like go to go to the avatar planet and pull more Wembe's down here in a play. Would it would it affect our interests in the league? I mean, I think if there's a literal alien involved, how does that not affect your interest in the league? How does that not make it more interesting? What is it? Whatever is happening? It would be said, it would lead to amazing halftime shows and morning shows and think pieces. Have humans lost control of the NBA? That's coming up there. I mean, it's hard to be America first when you can't even be earth first, you know, like just the talking heads would have a field day. Mike from St. Louis is the spurs back court of cast on Harper, the most exciting young back court since the splash brothers. What other young guard Tandem's got you hot and bothered like these guys? They're already the second and third best players in their team and they're 20 and 21 and then the Western finals. Yeah. Really good question. Splash Brothers, a great example. That started to happen in 2013 range. Curry was a little older though. He was in his mid-20s at that point. He'd been in college for three years. I was trying to think. I thought more people would come to mind and it was really tough to think of two young guards in the same back court that were this fun to watch. The closest second come was the Derek Rose Ben Gordon back court that the Bulls had for a split second in 2009. Remember that? Sure. When Rose was a rookie, Gordon had that great playoff series against Boston and felt like he was the next Andrew Tony. And it was like, wow, what a back court. 10 more years and then Gordon left like the next year and went to Detroit. It was gone. But it's pretty rare to have two young guards like this. Usually it's two guards who can't play together, like a Jayden Ivy and a Kade and things like that. Or a Stefan Amante Ellis. It's like, you got a pick one at a certain point. The other guy is jettisoned into the next version of your team. I mean, even even if you expand it into veteran groups, like this is so unique because these guys are so good and so young. But it's not as if there are just great guard guard combinations of any age that are this interesting. Like for me personally, Stefan Castle and Dylan Harper are like among my maybe top 10 to 15 most watchable players in the sport period. I agree. And so like I am dialed in on every spurs game. I can get my hands on like especially a run like this has been so fun to watch when they're out there together or a part. I think it's really hard to compete with that. The only other young tandem I can think of in the league right now is I mean, we do love Lamello and Khan together. Like that is that's a fun pairing for sure. But it's it's nowhere near. I feel like Khan's a forward too, don't you? I mean, it's sort of him, him brand and Miller, like it's it's all kind of a little fluid out there. But when you're talking guards like Chris Paul and Booker had that nice little Phoenix run. Sure. That was really fun. We had if you go back to the 70s and 80s, you know, we had the the best one was the Dennis Johnson Gus Williams one that made the finals in two straight years. Those guys are both young. They're both in their mid 20s. So we've had that something like that. Yeah. Or young Parker and Genobli might be it might be a good comp if you want to reach back a little bit. Both those guys were that's a great one. They were much wilder than these two. It was like two-step castles out there a lot of the time. But that can be fun too. Nash and Finlay was fun for a little bit. Of course. Yeah, there's been some good ones. Just from Jeffrey. He listened to my Borat rewatchables and then the breakdown of Game 1 of O.K.C. And Borat in that movie talks about having a romance explosion. And he wants to know what the current Romantic explosion team is. The guys you would construct around your personal enjoyment. What would be the best? You just mentioned two of your favorite players. Yep. So if you put a team that would actually make sense together of five guys. That would be your romance explosion team. What would it be? Oh my god. I can start as you think of it. Please. I have Joker, Wembee, and Steph as three of the five. And then I'm just going to work around them. So it's my three five, my three favorite players to watch anyway. Yep. And I was thinking healthy Halbert and assume we're having a Melty next year. And I get Steph and Halbert and who can both play with or without the ball. And they can both cut Joker, Wembee. Who's my fifth in this scenario? Who's a shooter? That's fun to watch and play with. I almost just wanted to put Aaron Gordon in there because they put him in the darker spot. I do love that. Some corner threes. And then he can just set picks and do stuff. That was probably, that was probably, I have four. I couldn't get that. I couldn't get there with the fifth. But so are you trying to win or are you just trying to have a romantic explosion? Just like I love watching all these guys that can't move. They're all playing together. I'm having a great time. Yes. I think the, the like, collision of all that talent is kind of hard to write. Like in particular, the Steph, Yokech, Wembee part. I love watching Yokech. I love watching him dissect the game. But like, Steph and Wembee are the important elements of that for me personally. Okay. And so like, I would start with those two. I went like really kinetic players between them. I want, I like Jalen Johnson types like super fluid. Can do a little bit of everything. But like, aren't being overtaxed in the way that the Hawks overtaxed him over the course of this year. But I feel like we need some defense. Do we not? Like, I like watching. That's why I brought. Aaron Gordon's a great one. I think I almost might put Yannis in this group. Like, I really like watching. He's alive. Yannis is alive. He's back. He's healthy. He's theoretically out of Milwaukee. I don't know where we are in the scenario. But Yannis of like, I don't have to be the superstar. I'm playing with these other guys. And I can just be like the best defensive player in the world and also an aggressive open court weapon at all times. That's a guy I want part of this formula. I'm going to give you my young guy Romance explosion team. Okay. Maxi Harper, Khan, flag, Klingon. Let's go. Do you need to towel off? I got Klingon protected in the rim. I got Khan sprint, sprint in the floor. I got Maxi and Harper going up and down and I got flag over here just doing flag things. There's got to have a great time. I say this with all due respect. There has to be a better guy that don't have been Klingon for this team. There has to be a better option. I just needed somebody who could play defense. I mean, this is shit off the board. Are we are we so down on chat? We're just throwing them out. Yeah, chat would be pretty good. You're right. Chat chat's probably in there. I don't know. I haven't a tough moment with chat. I mean, here's the thing. If you want pure watchability, just like enjoyman watching that guy work, give me mousse de Abate out there. The fights for the fights for 36 are going through the roof. The crazy rebounding, the like he will make one pass and take one shot every game that is objectively insane. But I'm along the ride for all of that. Tyler sent a Yanis email actually. Tyler J. is a crit so he he there was a rumor today about the heat offering hero where the 13th pick and two future first for Janice I forget to report that Gary Worfell I think that Jerry Worfell yeah I think that's what was um Tyler says in past off seasons I'd scoff at that but isn't that pretty decent value with the new lottery rules especially with Janice's injury history couldn't they last couldn't they heapy in the four to ten range I feel like first or a little more valuable now honestly I felt the same way I thought that was a lot I that you know Janice see of two really good years left three I've done a million podcasts segments about this feel like but I don't know who else is desperate enough to trade for him it feels like the heat is the only team the wolves maybe maybe but I don't I'm not getting the same kind of picks from the wolves because they've already traded all their picks it would have to be a third team involved for sure the Daniels kind of has to be in that trade and if then that changes the calculus of why the two wolves would do that so yeah I don't know I don't know if the I don't know if the bucks are doing better than that that's one of those right kind of like do you want to call this in that can I get a swap and we're good could I get a two thousand thirty one swap let's call it in at some point we need to do the full indexing of the complete range of offers that we have contemplated for Janice over the course of this entire saga because at the beginning the idea this is a reject oh my god here here aware in a couple of firsts for Janice and Jakumbo was just like as a hakez to absolutely but it would have been a non-starter like that's maybe in the pile like we're putting it in the roundup of deals for you know for the blog posts but is anyone really taking that offer seriously I think a couple of things have changed for one just literally everything happening in Milwaukee but also the relative value of those first like in this new era with yeah the change lottery odds it does it shifts the calculus a little bit around teams like Miami in particular as far as like how bad they could possibly be like they don't need to be fully bottoming out anymore for those picks to really be worth something I think yeah this wants to go to Boston and I'm not sure Boston wants Janice and I think that's the push and pull right now what makes you think he wants to go to Boston I just think he does aggregate it I don't care there's your social clip there's your aggregated blog post let's just let's just run with it think he wants to stay in the east and I think a certain guy in the Celtics has the same shooting coach as him and I think there's a lot of respect for the organization and I just think that would be a team he would be interested but I also think Miami is another team he'd want to go to yeah and by the way the leagues more fun if he goes to Miami the leagues more fun of Jaylen and Jason stay together next year sure Janice goes to Miami with BAM and they just kind of figure it out he culture style just just salvage random guys from around the league like the Dave Mitchell types and all the sudden they're scary plus with like the Pacers coming back the Hawks a little bit better the maybe the pistons find a way to add a piece or two like these could be a really deep conference next year especially if you honest go somewhere that's actually kind of relevant don't forget House's wizards of course the resurgent wizards just the tray and a deep pick high pick and roll with the bandsa I spread down this side I genuinely can't wait but I don't know if that says more about them or me Tony Candelora wants to know when we look back in this area of the NBA will the thunder end up being to the wimby spurs with the bad boy pistons were to the Jordan bulls the bulls had to mentally and physically overcome that big hurdle the spurs might have to do the same the pistons went back to back titles could this be history repeating itself I didn't thought of that but I thought that was pretty interesting the problem is in this scenario I guess you so the the spurs would have to be the 1990 bulls in this scenario yes which means they would yeah I that's that's a pretty good one I mean it's pretty realistic I just think the difference is the pistons were kind of on their last legs right in the second title whereas OKC is young and has a big future ahead well narratively I mean you have the team that's kind of like testing him with physicality in the way that the pistons did yeah you have you have wimby potentially having to overcome both that and them just competitively over the course of his first couple years in the league not only though does it feel different just because the pistons were so much further along an agent experience than the thunder are but it would be like if that pistons team were in place and they were a test for Jordan as they were but they also just had like this other trove of young talent and picks that was also in the pipeline so that they could be a totally different but equally competitive version of the pistons for the next like eight years like the sustainability of the thunder is the unique element and so every other contender falls apart within like a pretty concentrated window I think we have a lot of reason to believe that the thunder will not do that they'll have to change they're going to have to like draw lines somewhere they might have to trade j double at some point low does they are to do it but they just have so much to work with in a way that even the pistons of that time did not yeah the funny thing about this conversation is okay see might win nine of the next 10 titles and we'll be like remember that 2026 and we thought that they were going to be a stop cap champ for this first another challenging bill russell one more yana's thing from victor he he mentioned basically asking is there's if if yana's goes to Miami the zombie heat does he turn to the zombie Greek freak and does that get scary oh if he goes to Miami does does he now become zombie honest yeah and get the heat juice poured on him and now it's it's 2021 again basically is that how it works they just had to get it juice on people yeah they pour heat juice on people I mean the logic of the zombie says like as long as he gets bitten by somebody down there as long as like a piece of a brain is eaten then he becomes zombie honest but what does on be honest even mean I don't know it's like a game of thrones white walker thing like I don't want it harder yeah Ethan wants to know his big next fan if the next one the championship with brunson is their best player considering all the discourse about how you can't win a championship with brunson as a small guard is your best player what are other sports equivalents of that and he mentions this is an NFL thing not your total forte but if Lamar Jackson won the championship and there's this whole narrative about you can't win with a like a quarterback who runs and moves around as much as Lamar I don't think the next thing to win the championship this year but I think if they did there would be it would be a reckoning for a lot of things we thought about the type of teams that could win a title definitely not not building a team through the lottery pinning your hopes on a guy who after four seasons was averaging 11 points a game career and I think he got what like 104 million for four years and it was like a polar as in contract remember some people are like whoa that's Jaylen brunson that's way too much where were you on that I was I was more bullish on it I think if you were I didn't think he'd be this but I was like I don't know but how else are you gonna get yeah I thought he was a proven playoff guy at least absolutely I think if you were watching that Dallas team even before like the break out against the jazz if he had in that playoffs all of the signs were there that he was a good at least like plus starting level point guard I thought maybe he would be the kind of guy who like make some all-star teams maybe has like a Kimber Walker kind of career this has been a totally different thing this makes no sense it's up there with koai is really the only other example of somebody's first four years not remotely looking like their next four years right and it's just like a double leap and he's so good at all the things that small guards are not supposed to be good at like for as much as people ring their hands around that idea he gets in the lane and finishes and maneuvers around people in a way that we rarely rarely see and maybe have never seen from anybody else so I like this idea though of kind of like puncturing the common logic around what a champion can look like and I think you're right about the construction of the nicks not only did they not build the draft they didn't really build their free agency either like all of these guys they got by trade and so yeah even Randall was a free agent signing for sure turned into town somehow and on the other side of this I mean we're just coming off of a year were a really young team funder a really young thunder team won the title and if the spurs managed to get out the series maybe even a younger spurs team manages to win the title so the conventional wisdom that like you have to have experience you have to have all these things gets thrown out the window I don't know what the requirements would be anymore other than you need the superstars and clearly in this era you need a lot of depth just to survive this sort of run Jordan millennia and LA wants to know if Wembee could pull a Jerry West and the Western conference finals were okay see wins the series but Wembee wins Western conference MVP hadn't thought that I am on the record I always think it should come from a winning team I don't know how are you the MVP of a team that lost but this could be a really good test case if Wembee finishes 27 17 and four blocks again or whatever and his plus minus is crazy out of whack and they lose in seven by three points but I personally think it should be a winning team if he has three more games that look like game one I think he probably should win and that's even if Shay looks amazing right it's even if even so you would vote for it I mean you have to see it in context you have to understand what's happening it's like it's not just about the numbers but how much you are shaping and impacting the game I don't think anybody affected game one in the way that Victor Webanyam affected game one and they could lose the series and that could still be the case especially if they're down all these other guys and they don't have the ball handling and they just kind of fall apart but he is the one constant I don't see a reason you can't vote for that I think the one thing that's definitely happened he's the best part in the league now I don't think that's arguable anymore the impact that he has and watching go up a level in the playoffs I just think. I think this is kind of a wrap as great as SGA is. It's just what we're watching from Wembe is. We haven't seen it. John Kay wanted to know is Wembe the greatest threat we've seen to challenge Bill Russell's crown for most NBA championships, which is 11. I don't think it's happening. I don't think it's happening A and B we've been here before with like honestly, Shaq and Kobe felt like they were going to win every every title in the 2000s, right? When Wade and LeBron and Bosch all got together. Not one, not two. Yeah, it like seven, eight seem realistic. So we've been in this spot a few times. I don't I would say winning 11. The difference here is if he's 22 and his best teammates are 21 and 20, the kind of runway they're going to have skipping all the steps of like, you know, Jordan didn't win a title to year eight. Yeah, you know, Wembe might win a title in year three for all we know. I feel like it's much more likely that we look up 10 years from now and Wembe, Wembe and the Spurs 1-4 and Shay and the Thunder 1-3 and it was just kind of like a back-and-forth between them for supremacy during this time. But no, Celtics Lakers in the 80s, the Lakers 1-5, Celtics 1-3. Exactly. It easily could have been 5-3 the other way. Last one from Brian from Philly. He said, this is one of those series. Everybody seems to agree whoever wins the West will win the title. He wants to know how many other times has that happened where the finals were the series before the finals felt like the finals. So I went through this. Warriors Rockets 2018. Yes. Sun Spurs 2007, the Robert Horye shoving Nash into the into the thing. It felt like whoever won that series was going to win the title and the caps are waiting. Lakers Kings 2002, I think was a good one. The nets were in the finals. I heard the either team has been them. I mean, couldn't all three of those like all of the championships in the Laker 3-Pete probably would qualify at some point with some series they played or another in the West. Yeah, the problem is in 2001 they killed everybody. So I don't even think we thought there was a they were just destroying. That was the second best team in the century. Lakers Blazers in 2000 was the other one. Yeah. That felt like in the end, I thought was a good team that year. I actually in that series is a lot closer than I think it gets credit for now. If you go back and you watch game four and game six, it's a really, really good series. But I think those were those were the four. Oh, and then one other this is from BS weirdly. That wants to know why the Knicks keep rolling out all these X players that also have all this baggage from Knicks past. Well, this is a good thing or a bad thing. Marbury, Stark, Ewing, etc, etc. Larry Johnson's free well is it's like the ghosts of Knicks past not in a good way, but the MSG has come to accept them. Are you pro or you con? Where are you in this? I think we should honor our history. I think if you know, that's how I feel as well. Like what's the problem certainly with honoring those like Patrick Ewing wants to come watch the game. You're going to turn your nose of a Patrick Ewing. And I'm here for the big 10. I loved the ceremony they had earlier this season where they brought out like 60 guys like Ron Baker come celebrate with Nick's legends. I think once a Nick always a Nick is a genuinely cool thing in a league that feels so transactional and so mercenary sometimes like let's care about playing in a place and let's care about players and athletes that have relationships to a city into a fan base. I don't think any of us need to be too cynical for that. Rob Bihoney, I completely agree. I kind of like it's a little weird. It took a while to get used to it, but I like it because I think that's when you're a franchise that has generations. Yeah. I think you should embrace the generations and they've done a good job of kind of the celebrities of the people that have been coming for a while get priority for the seats. I saw a fat Joe was court side today. Yeah. But then all the other Nick's guys for the 90s and 2000s. I don't know. I kind of like it. I do like it when the Celtics even in the 80s and 90s when they would bring the guys from anytime a guy from the 60s or 70s was in the house. I was like, oh, oh my god. It's it's too a Don Nelson. Wow. But it is fun. If you're the Nick's is just every game. My one note, I don't know when Patrick doing entered his like newsboy cap era. But I did mix feelings about that. And maybe it just comes for all of us. Feels like he's I don't know tinkering with stuff. Yeah. Maybe new stylist him, John Travolta. Like it's it's a weird year for like berets and alternative hats. Travolta might have ended the beret. You think so? Yeah. I think I think I think he killed the beret a couple nights ago. So you're doing euphoria. You're doing it with Joe in on the prestige TV pod. I am in fact. And we're doing episodes left. Two episodes left. And we're actually going to be going live to YouTube for both of those episodes. So come hang out with us on Sunday nights with a ringer TV. It's the YouTube channel. Ringer TV. If you're not dialed in on the NBA that night, come watch you for you with us. My daughter was on my pod the other day and and said the the season seems to be revolving on Sydney swinging her boobs and just hoping that they will gravitate away from that in the final two episodes. What's her review? I don't know how locked in you've been built, but they literally destroyed a skyscraper. Oh, I'm I've been watching it. Yeah. They did a God's God's Elow with her boobs. Just wanted to make sure you know when that happened, I sent you like an urgent slack alert just to make sure it was on your desk, but I'm glad you're there. By the way, I haven't been a slack in eight years. Maybe that's why. Yeah. I'm most available on textile for you, Roboni. I appreciate that. All right. Ringer NBA prestige TV and I don't know when I'm going to see you again. There'll be some sort of live thing we'll have to do during the series because I think Spurstunder will go at least six. I certainly hope so. Hopefully there's enough like live bodies right at the end of the series. Yeah. All right. Thanks Roboni. We're going to take a break. Come back with Malibu Rubin and old friend Jason Goodsup. See you on next. Our friends Fandall give you better payouts on same game parlays on the NBA playoffs. All season long more ways to build more value every time you play. Stack your picks. Your way for every game every matchup every moment spreads, player points, threes, parlays, whatever you want. Build it into one same game parlay. Go for much bigger payouts. So if you're betting same game parlays this NBA postseason. Why wouldn't you do it on Fandall? I have no idea. More options. Better payouts. All NBA playoffs long. Head to fandall.com/BS to get started. Fandall official partner of the NBA. Play again. 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC. Contact your Wyoming restrictions. Pi C terms at sportsbook.com. Find out Fandall.com game problem call 1800 gamble call 888787 or visit ccpg.org/chat Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn for small businesses. Guess what? Every hire matters. Luckily, there's LinkedIn hiring pro. Great name. It's designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates. And guess what? Hiring pro streamlines the entire process from drafting jobs to shortlist candidates and conducting AI powered screening interviews. And it's conversational interface that you describe what you need in plain language. Higher rate the first time. Why not just do it the first time. Get started by posting your first job for free at LinkedIn.com/Simmons. That's me. That's LinkedIn.com/Simmons, terms, and conditions apply. Survivor 53 hour for now last night. Jason Concepcion is here. Malley Rubin is here. You might remember them once upon a time back in the 1900s. We have a little podcast called bingemode about a show called Game of Thrones. Way, way back when. But here's what's uniting us right now. We all love Survivor. I had a good comeback this year. You guys have been in from the ground for. Yeah. And it was an action pack season finale. Where do you want to start, Jason? Oh gosh. I'll start with the winner. Because I thought Aubrey. Deserving winner. Absolutely. Deserving winner. I've, I've never necessarily gravitated to her game. I thought the season where she came very close to winning, but Michelle won, Karong, you know, I could see. She played really well down the stretch, but I think that the criticism that her social game was not necessarily is on point that needed to be to win that game is, is correct. And ultimately, the fact that she was able to get to, to get to the position to win the last immunity necklace without Jonathan Joe or Rizzo realizing that she's the biggest threat to win the game. Yeah. Is proof positive that she deserves to win and that she altered her game enough to to win under very challenging circumstances. I mean, it, it seems like a two million dollar mistake to choose to boot Tiffany over Aubrey. Certainly for Joe. And, but shouts to Shasta Aubrey, just just a real, a great, great run. She played it in that kind of new era way where she stayed in the middle, stayed in the cut, and then flowered late to kind of take the reins. And, and again, still managed to stay off of people's radar. Just a wonderful performance. Have to hand it your bell. Yes. Yeah. I, I really agree. And I think like season 51 first of all, what a treat to be here with you both today to talk about this. Yes, but genuinely really memorable finale. And season 50 was supposed to be a lot of things, right? Not a lot of shows go for 50 seasons and 25 years. And one of the things that it was supposed to be, and I think when the initial cast list came out and there was this wide swath of players from the middle. season's missing. It was like, isn't this supposed to be a celebration of the eras? And it ended up being that in a lot of satisfying and surprising ways. And I think because of that core intention and the level of just adoration that every member of the cast brings to survivor. Like maybe we'll talk at some point about the celebrity twists across the season, which worked, which didn't. The true celebrity at the heart of survivor, I've said this before, is survivor. And so a player like Aubrey was always going to win this season, I think. A player who has the deep-seated trauma from injustices of survivors past. And the ability to, in Aubrey's case, I thought beautifully and quite effectively articulate that at Final Tribal. A player like Surrey, God Tier, was never going to get to the end. There are very few other members of the cast who would have actually taken her and followed through on that pledge. I think Ozzy might have probably nobody else would have, right? And a player like Joe was never going to get the votes. I actually think Rizzo is like a great player, and I hope we get to talk about him, but he was also never going to get the votes because the other players have never watched him play. They don't understand what his survivor history is, but they do understand Aubrey's. And so I think Aubrey always was a leader in the clubhouse for like most likely to win the season. And I think she really played well. The underdog story almost always hits at Final Tribal. And she was able to back it up with like actual savvy gameplay and a real narrative. So I think she's a worthy winner as well. Is it time for me to have a Zeig? Do it. Please, Zeig. Please, Zeig. This is why I stopped watching the show. This is why I stopped like 20 seasons in. I just had it with how they systematically get rid of all the most interesting, most talented, best-looking people during the course of the show. And what do we end up with? Oh, the middle. This is the new strategy. Oh, you mean the people that were smart enough to realize this person's bigger threat? Let's get them out. This person's bigger threat. I just, I thought she was so unimpressive. And the only reason she won was because 10 other people were way more captivating and way more of a threat. And she just kind of waited until the end. It was like watching a cockroach. Okay. Oh, yeah. Please, you first. I want to agree and disagree. Jason, I know we feel the same way about this because one of the things that like got me through COVID was us texting about Jesse during Jesse. This has been a real problem in the new era where like I think genuinely it is difficult, if not impossible, for the best player in the season to win. And this is something that Jason and I have like agonized over for years. Jesse was one of the players I was shocked not to see in the season 50 cast. He was easily one of the most dominant players in recent memory. And the fact that he was not only not able to win, but not make it to the point where he could have tried to win was I think that I know Jason, you agree an indictment of the structure of the game. So broadly bill, I think your critique of like can the best player win is valid inside of this phase of survivor, a show that I love and like basically can't live without. That said, I don't think that's the case for Aubrey. I don't actually think Aubrey is a player who falls into that mold. I don't think that Aubrey is one of these. She fall into not charismatic doesn't win challenges. Nobody really trusted her. And everybody kept her around because they all were stupid enough to think if she got to the end, they're going to beat her. That was the only reason she won. I'll say this. I think it is very telling that over four appearances on the survivor television program, the first time she won an immunity is the first time she won the title. And she bought the set for and protested. She protested on her own. Anybody could do that. The final yeah, the final challenge for I can't even remember how long it's been. Yeah. Everybody knows and yes, there was a vote. But it's like everybody should put their chip on it's going to be some ocean because everybody knows it's going to be some ocean. Everybody could have done that. And I'll just say like, I love Surrey. She dominates the game when she's in there. Absolute mastermind, the likes of which we will never see that level of strategic and social play. Maybe again, if she could win a challenge one time, I mean her threat, she could maybe win this game because that's you need the complete package. And I want to say that I agree with you, Bill, that specifically in new era, there have been champions. Yeah, for sure. Gabler, who came out and literally came out and know where you're like, what? Erica to a degree where the editing has not caught up with the way the game has played today where people stay in the middle. They stay below the surface. And then they burst out late. And I think that that is a production issue that the show needs to figure out in order to drive these narratives stronger. That said, I thought they did a good job with that this season. I really think they did. Well, we thought she was going to make the final three just from the edit. When she was crying during the Mac and cheese, I was like, all right, there we go. When Jonathan put his tongue in the rice, I'm like, he's not winning. That's not a champion's in it. Oh, man, I think Bill, you invoke the word cockroach. And I would just posit that that is part of the point. Outlast is one of the core tenets of survivor. And like, I think that there are, and this is actually, I think this is a healthy debate because part of what's fun about survivors, just like the players have different styles and approaches. Fans of the show have different things they're looking for in a champion and different things they gravitate toward in a player who they form an attachment to. I like all sorts of different survivor players. Like, I actually think Jonathan played an amazing season, you know? And I obviously quite different from Aubrey. And one of the things that was super fun about the back half of the season was that brief moment where they were like, should we work together? Literally no one at home or on this beach would ever have anticipated that Aubrey and Jonathan would work together. And it was like riveting, right? Even for a moment, I think that the challenge beast is like a form of survivor dominant. Dominance, I think that the social strategist, the tactician, the intuitor, right? All of these things are different. I think that there is something undeniably impressive though about just being able to move vote to vote and not because I don't think I just don't think impressive. No, but that's a thing. We don't have to vote her out yet. I don't agree. She controlled the Aussie vote, which Joe basically confirmed at final. She had the better. She had the better ability to make her case, which people forget about that part of it. Like she told the story at the end about why she should win. And it resonated. That's what my wife said at the end. She was like, because we thought Jonathan had the best quote-unquote on paper game. He couldn't communicate why he played the best game. And you could feel him dying in real time during the tribal council. Because and I think there was more there maybe in the edit. It didn't seem like people liked him. It was interesting to me that all the women it seemed like except for Stephanie didn't vote for Jonathan. No, because he both voted for Jonathan. They were the most vociferous of in his defense. But how many women didn't vote for her now? It was eight to three, right? To the point where Tiffany had to say, is there a question in this monologue? That was just weird. It was just like her little friend too. And one of the biggest episodes where all she had to do was throw him under the bus. And she probably would have escaped and she didn't. And she then she was like, well, I I was trying to do right by him or whatever she said. I thought that was. Yeah. I mean, that's like an adjustment. Jonathan can make Jonathan will play again. There's no question, right? And I thought one of the cool thing. Like when Jonathan played his first season, everybody talks about Ozzy as the jungle boy. There has never been a more physically dominant single season performance than Jonathan's first season. It was astonishing. He was like Thor. It was crazy. The fact that in between his appearances, he said, I'm going to study at the knee of Boston Rob and really work to improve my game is impressive. So now he will, I have no doubt make another adjustment. There's no question, Bill, that he's thinking the exact same thing. Like I sat there and the relationships I needed didn't pan out. And I wasn't able to articulate my case too. And I actually think Jonathan did a pretty good job across the season of like saying what he needed to at tribal council or in a conversation with somebody when he was trying to move a vote. But certainly Aubrey did too. And I think the like Aubrey got by because she wasn't the biggest threat. There were for weeks now. She's been a target weeks. So I just don't think that's accurate. Was she always the biggest record with which they got rid of three because they thought she was the biggest. They got rid of Tiffany over Aubrey because they were afraid Tiffany would win the next immunity and that they wouldn't be able to control the outcome then. But this is not because they just got by celebration of the middle. And this is why this shows frustrated to me. It really is a microcosm of real life. This is what big companies are like. This is what he has pan was like middle-level managers who just figure out how to go under the radar don't really make noise either way and just kind of strategically survive until other people flame out. And that's the show. And this is why I stopped watching it because it's frustrated to me. I will disagree with you in the sense that the middle era of this show certainly up to winners at war was let the players play and very aggressively so fewer advantages, huge alliances, big rivalries, big characters making big moves. It has turned into, and I think you're framing it a lot more aggressively than I would, That kind of game in the, in the new era? with too many advantages and and people playing the middle. That said, I, I, I think I'm going to, I'm going to critique it through the, your take through the lens of Jonathan. I think Jonathan made it made a tactically sound decision that that I can, I have a great chance to win the final immunities and my only real threat in that regard is Tiffany. And so I need her out so I can win that and then we, then we get out Aubrey and then we move on. Not realizing that you might not get that chance and I think it was an ego move. And, and the issue is people who play as much as Jonathan has grown. He's still, I think, thinks of himself as like a challenge player, a physical player. He's always talking about like, they only see me as the big guy. I mean, you're talking about how, how much you're the big guy. And he looked at the game through the lens of challenge beast. Tiffany's got to go not looking at the full picture. What are the conversations that are happening when you're not looking? Who has relationships on that jury right now? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Who's having conversations that you're not aware of? Who's been involved in votes? Who hasn't had a vote cast against them? And you've got to look at that whole picture. And Jonathan's not there yet. Rizzo, who I love is certainly not there yet. Though I think we'll see him again. Oh my god. No question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But hold on with the strategy piece. And this is why Jonathan lost. So Rizzo has an idol that they never flush out ever two seasons in a row. Yeah. It's terrible. Incredible. Yeah. So Sari has, they know that she's never winning a challenge. She's just not. That's her fatal flaw. It's like Mitchell Robinson's free throw shooting. Like you can do hack us hack us. Sari put her on the free throw line. She's going to go one or two. You have to keep it to the final five. They got rid of her a week too early. That was your week to either get rid of either Aubrey or Tiffany. I forget who had the immunity at that time. I think that was you keeping Sari until the final. He's like, we got to get her out. We got to get her out. It's like just do it when there's five left or do it when there's four left. What challenge is she winning? There's no way. She's already proven. She's been last or if you're doing advanced metrics on it. She's last her second or last in every challenge you're doing. So why do you have to get rid of her before the final four? I just don't understand that. They're in the island all day talking about nothing. This is like all I would talk about. Yeah. It's funny. Yeah. 40 scenarios like this never don't have them. I've had this this exact discussion with like I think this is a popular take you know in the wake of when specifically Sari was voted out. And I I think that you're undeniably right that if you just look at the probabilities. Like if you just look at the likelihood of certain outcomes, you can't argue against the case you just made. There's there's no there actually is no counter argument. However, the infinitesimal scenario, however small the likelihood is that some challenge emerges. And like frankly, I think that production puts a challenge in front of them that is suited to Sari because they so badly want Sari to win. You can't be the person who made the single biggest mistake and survivor history, which was to allow Sari to get to the final. We do it. That's your lesson. You get rid of Rizzo and his idol. I don't know. I just didn't agree with that. And I think also taking Sari out is a resume move for people because she's such a beloved player. So they all wanted to be able to say I'm the one who finally got Sari the goat out of the game. And that's like too tantalizing of an elixir to pass on, I think. Yeah, I agree. I think Jonathan had a chance and his chance was get Aubrey out when you had the chance. That was it. Period. And then lean on your strength as a challenge beast to say I can beat Tiffany. Why are you why are you running from the smoke? Why are you running from the from challenging Tiffany? Head up in it in the final immunity challenge. Like take her on. Don't be afraid of that. That's what you're good at. Why? You get Aubrey out. I love Tiffany. I was really really rooting for her. I thought she had a great season. I understand why you'd want to get her out, but I ask I don't feel like she had the same connections. And part of it, I mean, you guys have been watching the show the whole time. I watched, I don't know, the first 20 first 25. I can't remember. And then I faded off. The part that was different for me that maybe you guys is the history of these people on the shows was such a big part of how everybody perceived who they should vote for or who's in control. They were using the past. It was like why Riz couldn't win because he hasn't tasted his blood enough or whatever stupid reason it was. And I was just watching like who's playing the best game this year. And to me like I thought Jonathan and Tiffany were way better. And I actually thought Riz was better than Aubrey too. But then everybody was pulling in the past and you were so close against Michelle. And I was like I didn't see that season. I don't even know what that means. I'm just judging you by this year. When you were just in the middle, doing nothing for most of the season. I'll say that I think that there is there's active activity on the island playing the game, making moves, etc. And then there's this passive ability to read the game. And I think that is what this middle play that Aubrey displayed shows. I think Tiffany had an ability to read the game. What she was missing was an ability to rally people to get Aubrey out. She saw it. Aubrey is the threat. We need to do this. But she couldn't build those connections to make it happen. And yeah, she was annoyed by people. That's how I would be in this game. I would just be starting to get annoyed by like six seven people. I can't help it. It seemed very much the same. But that reading the game I think is the thing that is both the most amorphous, hard to visualize as an audience member, because you have that omniscient view. You can see everything. You know what's happening basically on the island from 30,000 feet above. It's also what makes the game so frustrating. I think Jonathan didn't depress after the finale. And I think, and if you watched him, other podcasts have noted this, other people have watched the finale. He had like a big dip in his lip. I think, just chewing, you know, trying to try it. He looks very unhappy still. I think he thought he won. And I think he must have thought he won. And he, and I think he thinks, I think he realizes he made a $2 million mistake. I think that's known for a full year plus, because that's how long ago this was filmed that he didn't win. And he has spent every day stewing on and anticipating this moment of public regret. That's, that's, that's how long it was done in the moment. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was like, yes, it's been here. And the prediction markets had Aubrey at like 36% before the show had been started, which I didn't know any of this the last night. And then heading into this final episode, she was the prohibitive favorite. That's not surprising to me just because even though they had not actually read the votes much like before the game, you know, the zoom alliance, all of the pretty. You're not supposed to pregame, but they do. They formalize as they talk. Similarly, you know, everyone's like, who'd you vote for? Who'd you vote for? And yeah, it's an NDAs are not enough. People know that at some point where it gets out and then it travels. I, I did not know that about the markets and Aubrey, but I think the edit, frankly, from episode one made it pretty clear that Aubrey was going to make it far because there was, we had these kind of two phases of the edit. The first one, you know, and like, Christian was the player. I was Tyson Tyson, host of ringer, excellent ringer podcast, the potta spoken. If you were, if you were listening to this and have not checked out the potta spoken, check it out. It's if you love Survivor, it's a fantastic podcast. Tyson is the best. He's my favorite survivor player ever. One of my most recent new favorites is Christian from David versus Goliath, right? Yeah. Christian is, I was, when the cast list versus 50 came out, I was just overjoyed that we were going to get to see Christian play again. Christian was so prominent in the early episodes that I was like, fuck, there's literally no chance. Christian is winning this season because they wouldn't be devoting this much time. Yeah. So Aubrey was in that interesting spot where there was, it was so conspicuous in episode one, centering this feud between Genevieve and Aubrey that did end up bearing fruit of being really meaningful in the enane blood moon episode, but had no consequence early on in terms of being featured as prominently as it was. So it's like, they're telling us this is going to matter for a reason. Then we get to the middle of like the surging, I'm an underdog, right? Okay, I won't make the same mistakes I have in the past. People start targeting Aubrey. Then they start talking about how Aubrey has a good story. Oh, tips making some good, some good points. I think this has been, again, I love Survivor. There's like the mini version of it where you're watching a challenge and literally the scoring the music of the scene changes right before the outcome of the, the challenge. You're like, I guess I know who's about to hit this shot and win. Why do they do this? Yeah. They tip the edit. There was a period a few years ago where they worked more actively, I think to obscure the outcome and how they edit the show because so many people were onto it. There were a couple candidates, I guess, and how this season was edited. I think Jonathan was one of them as well, where it was like the way he's being edited. You did really believe he was going to get pretty far. Tiffany is the opposite. Yeah. I didn't think that's been enough time on her and meanwhile she was cranking on challenges. The only finalist, the only final five contestant with a no confessional episode. Right. And so I think they really, they really over corrected on Tiffany's edit in particular. Sorry. Tiff is great. Um, she'll win at some point. She will win. So will Rizzo. Imagine setting your makeup then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new groupie setting missed from Maybelline, New York. Zelda Miss technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. No tightness. No sticky. is no residue. Just clump, dewey hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. >> Maybe it's Mavily. >> Did you think there were too many gimmicks to season? >> No question. No question. Not only too many gimmicks, but too many game breaking destructive gimmicks. It's one thing to have like Blood Moon and it was like a name and it didn't really matter. But then you have like the Jimmy Fallon one turn which was basically outrageous. Put a gun in Christian's hand and tell him he has to shoot himself. Like it's there was no chance he came back from that and too many of the advantages were like that. The Billie Eilish boomerang which it's notable to me how many longtime survivor watchers and survivor contestants turned survivor content creators have continuously been like oh Rizzo should give the no he can't. It's the boomerang he has to keep it. And that mechanic alone is just dumb. We want to see players make deals. We want to see players be active. Not get locked in these boxes and too many of the gimmicks they want they randomize the game too much. I think they're just too prohibitively dangerous to the person who gets them. I could not possibly agree more. I think again the true celebrity and survivor season 50 is survivors who let's center the gameplay. Now I think like the shock of the century to me is that the Mr. Beast thing which I had been dreading given how prominently it had been teased in the trailers was like kind of amazing actually and death and the center of just that so it's I think two things one when Jeff is talking about the blood moon and how iconic and historic it's going to be and that's why we're here to make historic moments it's like that there are not that's not how a historic iconic survivor moment happens by you saying out loud it's about to happen. It happens organically and authentically because of the decisions that the players make and the blood moon robbed the players of the ability to make decisions based on their play to that point by artificially dividing them into groups that were too small do the part of spoken crew talked about this a lot of the time to do a 17 person tribal that would have actually been historic. Now the Mr. Beast thing worked out because because it allowed it came up. It came up right beast and like they got the two million great but it allowed devins to behave fearlessly and boldly which is his game. It was an amplifier for how he already plays and I think it revealed everybody else's collective cowardice because they let him do it which was dmented how could nobody else stand up and say I'm going to do this instead. The Jimmy Fallon thing I will take to my grave both because of my affection for Christian but also because to your point Jay it deprived a player who we love to watch operate of the ability to operate it all it's a it's a it's a violation of sacred survivor tenant which is the one thing you will never have to do on the island is right right down your own name so right away I'm out but it's just once you go back and you have to read that out loud and say that and then do it there's literally nothing you can do to save yourself at that point and then what what are all the alliances and the games from ship four Genevieve who I think is a great player found two idols and got voted out because the game didn't allow either of them to make a back to her in time because of that artificial division of the structure so like I think the moments that heightened gameplay and centered it and allowed the decisions that the players had made to that point and wanted to make in the future to be at the the four including like fire making right like the blowing that Jeff revealing that which I'm sure we'll talk about was like astonishing but the fact that two players who had lost fire before we're facing off and fire I was like my jaw was on the floor I'm like I keep this is actually poetic this is like this is mythic this is what survivor is Jimmy Fallon coming in or like a 25 minute spear fishing aside with a survivor superfan I'm like I'm a survivor superfan I didn't get to go do that why do I want me to watch this you know I the moments that move me the most this season were like Aussie crying about his father and I was like I did not expect to feel this way about an Aussie scene but I'm like bold over by this really moved how many times you cry now I was genuinely affected by that Aussie moment and even something really like you know like Joe and Devin's having just this very authentic connection about that would really touch me the moment that got me the most this season not even close won't surprise Jason who knows about my Colby obsession to hear this but like Colby being voted out it got me because it's like not just because he's just insanely hot not always has been and I'm one of my formative crushes and I was sad not to get to see him but like that's a moment that only season 50 of survivor can give us which is like this person you watch grow up on your TV sit there the guy used to be a hot shot challenge beast dominant beloved like poster boy heartthrob then he comes back he can't get it done he doesn't handle it well you know the the third time and like to be there after 24 years in his 50s as like the fatherly figure and sit there with that like humility and humbleness and grace I was just like this is actually kind of amazing to me to have watched this person move through the phases of his life and to see the way it impacted the other players around him who were in tears having to to send him home knowing he would probably not be back I was like this is why watching season 50 this is amazing also one of the top 15 people that were more charismatic the season than the winner Aubrey I will say that I don't disagree that she's not oozing charisma by any what what your favorite moment during the season well I love the Genevieve feud yeah but I but those that's one of those editing decisions where you know from my perspective it was they gazed at each other across the beach and then hated each other and no explanation yeah I want to know yeah what happened and they should have made more a hay out of whatever that was because it seemed so deeply felt that both of them were just simply not going to work with each other after whatever happened on that beach but that was that was great I mean that's the stuff I love is these petty rivalries alliances based on based if you know just like vibing with somebody can I give you my Mr. Beast impression on the show please bigger chief wider somebody tell him like hey you're probably going to be nervous out there just smile like you're a serial killer for the entire time you're out there that's probably my most disappointing moment was when Christian turned on Mike white who had befriended him and even brought him to the white Lotus thing and I do feel like I feel like Christian worked the long con on Mike white who loves the show and should know better I'm telling you I first of all I think Mike white was like this is my guy right here meanwhile Christian did the full fucking scar face double cross on him is anybody working a longer con than Michael white that's the thing he got I'll survive multiple survivor players into the white Lotus universe yeah you got all posted close to the official podcast with mr. probes and who's who dangles these appearances in white Lotus as as boons for being in his orbit I think Mike I think Mike was trying to do the exact thing to Christian that Christian did to him on the Christian got their first and honestly Christian had to we had to do it at that moment Mike white another more cares about it contested that Aubrey sure that wasn't really so Christian and Mike played together right they were on and that is my favorite season of survivor David if anyone's like what old season should I check out I mean there are a ton here is versus villains blood versus water I mean there are a million yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah all the Tony seasons winners were there fantastic but like David versus Goliath is a fantastic standalone season and a lot of those characters have been a part of survivor lore moving forward Christian was on the one hand right to identify that like people were looking at them and Mike was too too willing to say like my David versus Goliath guys are my guys like let's do it yeah Christian I'm realizing that was a threat was right I think that there was no literally no chance that anyone who was playing the season was going to give bazillionaire Mike white two million dollars in prize money so like I don't think he needed to be eliminated in that sense but he's in the final five yeah he is a very compelling and artful director of decisions and I thought the way that he like with the laser beam to the heart yeah picked at that scab at that Gabby wound for Christian mistake holy shit like that was riveting to watch it's like not again the context there is Christian and Gabby had a what seemed like a rock side alliance yes bordering on perhaps a mutual crush like it was it was yes it was powerful television and at a crucial moment she turns on him he survives it but ultimately it does wound his his campaign going forward and it was a big big moment and from Mike to put his finger on that I thought was I thought it was too soon for that kind of move and I will add this I think Mike's other mistake if you could call that he came in to shred it yeah keep Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Keep your shirt on. Yeah. Don't don't be like I've been working with the guy who, you know, gets the Hemsworths ready for the cinematic universe to prepare for this. It's telling too much. Yeah. He has to be great. Um, we didn't talk about Joe yet. Yeah. Joe with a goose egg in the final three. Very rough. He is well in the finals twice, which is really tough. And Syri just drive by shot him with the Joe the Joe patient, whatever she said, that was just an unbelievable throat slit. That was so. Joe, Joe, every Joe probably should have been a red flag for him that everybody was so delighted to never talk about him, never vote him out and just keep him going. Happy to take them to the end. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody saw him in the same way. I think Joe showed good growth towards the end of this season, recognizing that his honor and integrity kind of gameplay is one very old fashioned and two just is not a way to to win the game, to go far in the game, to be a threat to win the game on any level. That said, he brought it up in the final tribal council, talking about how he he added some layers to his gameplay. And that's the part that didn't resonate with me at all. I did not feel that Joe, meaningfully, here's the thing. Joe as a survivor player thinks he's playing the honesty and integrity game into a certain extent he is with in relation to everybody else. He's also lying and playing survivor early, but not recognizing it. And then later, when he's saying, Oh, I had to add these lies to his game. He, where? Yeah. You did. Yes. I remember. I didn't remember that either. My wife and I were like, what did Joe do with a double cross that we forget? I think he was like trying to basically reposition something like saying to coach coach one of as always, one of the most bankable experiences in this in this unpredictable world is that watching coach on survivor will be the highlight of a lifetime. Another one more charismatic and obry. I'll just keep listening to him. He is such an incredible character. I just can't like get I just can't I never I personally never tire of it, but saying to to coach, I will never write your name down. And then we get the the pair's elimination, which was like again, an example of I thought a much better twist than some of the ones that were touted in the time in the moment of being like a huge twist. It's like actually interesting to pair people and then you have to vote out to people at once. I like that. Yeah, that was really good. Now, I think that Joe is Joe is a little bit of a like every person inside of them has two wolves, right? Like for me personally, because as Jason knows, watching Joe a couple seasons ago with Eva was like one of the most emotional and moving and deeply, I think genuinely deeply affecting experiences in the history of survivor. It was it was it was a blockbuster television to the point that I am convinced production tinkered with the challenges to keep Joe in the game for two or three extra episodes when they realized he couldn't do a puzzle. Yeah, it's entirely possible. It was just beautiful to watch that. I thought like sincerely. Yes, it was. That said, Joe going back to camp after like Devin's gives us one of the most authentically incredible moments in survivor history. And Joe says that everybody has the fucking gall to say to everybody that was disgusting wasn't appropriate. I'm like, dude, what game do you think you're playing? This is survivor. Now, I think people try to play their version of survivors fine. And if you want to do the honor integrity of lines, like, it's not personally for me. I like watching people stab each other in the back and cut each other's throats and then try to justify why the person they did that to should give them a million dollars. Like, that's amazing. But if you want to try to do it differently, that's your prerogative. That's actually fine. Don't say you can't believe that other people are doing the thing that everybody is there to watch the show. Yeah. Yeah. Well, why else do we have it? Who is the one if we if we reset this season and just started over again? Who is the one that got voted out a little earlier, Jason, that you feel like, man, it's just almost like a sports series where it's like, oh, man, if they didn't hit that three in game one, we probably could have won that one. I think there are several, but I'm going to go with Genevieve. I think Genevieve is one of the most dynamic players we've seen in the new era. Yeah. In her previous season had this ability to scramble from the bottom against adverse situations, hold fast to toxic allies as meat shields in a way that showed a level of of ability to read the game that I think and read the middle game that I think is uncommon and very smart, very tactical. And I think that's why Aubrey had to get her out. Immediately, immediately. Yeah. Another charismatic one. Yeah. I think Genevieve is a great pick for that. I have I have two nominees. One is very quick because it was it was injuries. So there's not much to talk about. But Kyle, I think would have gone incredibly far in the game. And he's one of the more impressive winners and recent memory. And I would actually be fast-handed bill for you to go back and watch his season, given your overall feeling about kind of like biting your time as a strategy. Because the way he did it, I thought, I was like, you should be like in MI6. Like it was it was unbelievably unbelievable. And I think you would really have respected his game and wanted to watch and play the season. But I think that maybe the spirit of your question, the better answer is since Jay took Genevieve charlie because this was just a bizarre self-immolation that didn't need to happen. And I think it was like kind of interesting to watch, given that it was very genuinely born out of his personal trauma from Maria. Charlie's a really good player. Like he did incredibly well in his season. He had an alliance that took him very far in his ally as we know. Even if you didn't see a season, you know from watching this season, his number one didn't vote for him. And he has just never gotten over it. Like it's a sincere, sincere wound he carries. And he just completely misread the Rizzo thing and allowed that this mystery, this misperception that Rizzo was Maria and had done to his ally. What Maria had done to him to he imploded his own game because of like the wrong read on someone he hadn't watched play. And I think whether like you let your own personal trauma or baggage lead you to a certain certain decision is like very human. And that's interesting to watch. But I wish Charlie had just been like all I know is what people are saying out loud. And why would Rizzo in any way tell us the truth about what happened. I shouldn't let this be the arbiter of the decisions that I make. It just was so strange. The whole did had on him. And I wish we had gotten to watch him play a little longer because he's a I think he's quite a capable player. Jason. Can you I know it's it just happened. So you probably need more time to reflect. Sure. What do you think? What do you think Riz? What do you think this final three meant to the Albanian community? Well, I I was saying when you know, Rizzo was talking about how important this is the Albanian community. That first of all, they have duolipus. So they're good. I think the Albanian community at large is they're filled with great these things. You know, action Bronson, granite, Jacques, a former Arsenal player. Like there's we're doing okay. I think Rizzo, listen, Rizzo's got a lot of potential. I think we'll see him again. I think he maybe over rates his own game to a degree. He he needed to control a vote. If you're never going to be able to win a challenge, you need to swing a vote somewhere down the line. And he was just I think a little too passive and made the ultimately cut his allies off at the knees way too soon. He needed to skate through. I think one more vote with Syri and Ozzy. I thought I needed to don't you think he needed to flip when there was like six left and do a new alliance with with Tiff and Syri. I think would have been a move. Yeah. I mean, that's a move to because he was he was drawn dead in the one he was in. I think he was always going to be the third guy in that group. Here's where I'll disagree. I think that there's two ways to do it. And both are very strong historically. Yeah. One way is you have one only one number one ally. And you say you and me were going to the end and whatever happens there happens. Or you flip at some point. Both of those work really well. But you know, I think there's so many examples of you need that one ally. You just need the one. And I thought that Rizzo had gone too far down the road with Syri to not hold on to her for at least one more till you get back together. I mean, like until you get back together and you get to do it. But Syri had like four people like that. That was one of the great things about her game because everybody felt like they were her number one. And I mean, well, you know, Syri was getting around. Yeah. I mean, that's part of her her just magic is the ability to just win everybody to her cause and really truly steer and direct the outcome. She said CR is like if CR was on Survivor, a CR just floats in the different groups. I think he'd do very well. He'd do great. He'd do great for the pie. He need the nicotine. Could they be able to drop him the nicotine? I think CR I think CR would get double crossed and it would be like one of the most devastating moments in Survivor history. People would trust him. Yeah. People would just be adding. Yeah, too trusting. Too nice of a guy. The love by all warm, open heart and then just absolutely evaporated. That's the whole point of the show. I really like great TV. I really liked risotto. I enjoyed him and I think he was actually you know, I wonder like should you hold back during the early travel councils because if you're just like he's somebody who could have like a podcast like he's just like on the more elk inside of those things. So I think as he's like just very like for two minutes just laying out like some big picture angle on the show. They had to have been thinking like I don't want to be in the final three with this guy is going to be able to explain his case the best. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, like he is able to not only succinctly and clearly say the thing that needs to be said, but he does it with with as he would say some cinema right makes it really compelling and dramatic. He draws the eye. Rizzo is one of my favorite recent players. And I think that my sense, Joe, I'm curious if you agree with us from 49. I think this is a pretty widely shared experience. Very similar to like what Colby went through in real time on season 50 where the first couple episodes you're like, what's going on with this guy? This is really a lot. And then you just fall in love with him. And it's so it's so fun to watch him play. And I think like in general, I think a problem with the recent seasons of Survivor is that the players are way too self aware. They're all super fans. They're obsessed with the game. They all think they're Survivor scholars. And so they're not only constantly like, I'm the best. I know exactly how to do this because I've crunched the tape for my entire life. I think the part of it that's fun is they're all by the experience. And when you have a season like this where like you can watch Rizzo pull coach aside and say to a player, he idolizes and grew up watching. We don't slay dragons at camp. We do it at tribal. Like it was incredible. And I think watching the way that he navigated his interactions with these people. He idolizes was genuinely impressive. But he's he transcends I think like a little bit of a flaw with the current game because most of the players are who are obsessives are two. There was a season a few seasons ago. I can't remember which one it was where like I think six of the players were podcasters or in the media. And it's like they're just too hyper aware of what their image is going to be and how they're going to play as TV characters in addition to as like survivor players. And I would love obviously we're not getting that because the T's for 51, which I have to be honest, I could barely follow and did not understand like the open era explanation of like all the advantages and everything that's ever happened in the game is in the mix. I'm not really totally like following more twerk more venture. I mean, the opposite. We need a clean slate. I completely agree. Yeah. It seems like that. I mean, this is just a guess. I you know, but it seemed like maybe they're going to try and do a one world type of situation. So build one world was there were no two camps. There were no two tribes. Everybody was just on the same beach. That is kind of interesting to me if they're going to do that. But I agree with Malat like let the players play take out some of these randomizing elements that have been introduced lately. I think that there was now maybe just has data that backs up that people actually love this stuff. And in which case, fine. That said for me as a person who'd been watching a long time, there is like an ideal that that crested in survivor. I would say like around David's for scolized millennials Gen X when it was like a minimum of advantages and idols. And you knew that when an idol left, it was coming back that was very predictable. And it allowed players to just play. Yeah. And now I think you're looking over your shoulder. You're wondering if I pick up this advantage. How is it going to harm me? There's just too many things that take the players out of the experience in ways that I think imagine setting your makeup. Then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Maybelline New York. Zelda mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. Try new grippy setting mist from Maybelline New York. Maybe it's Maybelline in court the game. Did you did you both miss having an actual reading special where we learned more stuff about bad blood between people and did people regret stuff? Because I know Jeff propses on the record is like he didn't really like those things anymore. Yeah. I kind of enjoy him. I almost wish like they had done a one hour and just put it on Paramount or something. They put it in the thread window. I like seeing the bad blood. And I like learning more about how people felt about the show. I thought it was weird. They punted on that. I always like when Jeff asks like if this person had been at the end instead, who would have voted for them? And they raised their hands and the person who made in this case, it didn't happen this way because Aubrey made the right decision to choose to take Joe, but plenty of plenty of players who have made a decision about who to choose to have next them. I mean, the wrong decision and that person is one. And it's like something they think about until the day they die, right? Yeah. And then Jeff asks, what do you have? And it's like just a unbelievable thing to watch those hands go up in the air. So I miss that specifically. But of course, if that had happened, Bill, if we had just gotten the true like reunion hour at the end, what we would not have gotten. Oh, yes. Was Boon Light La La Land all over again, one of the most bat shit. What the fuck just happened live TV moments in the history of pop culture? Like I don't think we're overstating it to say that Jeff's boiling fire making Jeff bringing out a final four at the final four. What was here when Rizzo came out? It's like, this is an orthodox wire. He's still in the game. Rizzo is like, what am I doing out here? He tried to kind of like roll with it. You know, until Jeff Jeff was at the end was like, OK, go sit down and then realize like, oh, you spoiled it. Yes. So Jeff's explanation, which I watched this morning on one of the morning shows was that, and this part makes sense. He's not watching the shows. It's happening because he's already seen it. He's probably been involved with the editing. Yeah. Probably like, no, no, do you use camera too? I don't like that angle of me for that one. He's doing all that. So he's seen it and he's prepping and he's getting the live stuff ready. And it's hard to host the live shows. I've said many times. It's hard to host. Yeah. So I empathize with him. Yeah. He clearly either got bad information from a producer or or got discombobulated. I would go with the bad information because you're doing a three hour show, your live, you're going from here to there. There's a possibility and I would say this as an older guy who had two brain parts already this year in the podcast. There's a possibility. He just brain farted and forgot that they hadn't shown the Rizzo thing yet. And now retroactively is like, oh, they told me, I don't know. What do you think is it brain fart or producer mistake, Jason? Having been around TV and live productions enough, that is a mistake that is structural 15 people made that mistake. Yes. There is a director and a segment producer who it might be the Jess was like, okay, now let's bring on Rizzo brain fart. But then like five to ten other people need to just be like, okay, I guess we're about in his ear. Like Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, don't, don't spoil the fire. Don't spoil the fire. Nothing. Or somebody come running down the aisle and go like this. It's, it should not have happened. And it happened because a whole load bearing part of the production collapse, not just Jeff. There's no way it's just his fault. Yes. I think, you know, they they decorate camp and particularly tribal council on these sets with like a, a lot of specific touches, right? You know, they'll be shields or or phoenixes. Sometimes there are skulls. And I would encourage everyone who's a part of this production to get a scan of their skull committed to the public record so that we can look at the future seasons of survivor for every skull that is part of the set deck and make sure that the people who did this were not murdered by Jeff. Because this is not something that should have happened. And we were texting in real time, because first of all, I don't think it's possible that it's because we're all watching this in real time in the less coast. Yes. I don't think it's possible that there's a explanation of like he was going to bring Rizzo out and just the mistake was simply saying, go sit down. You become the final member of the jury, which obviously was astonishing when he said that out loud because then it was meant to naïve what had happened. And then the harsh that fell over the room, Jeff saying, what just happened. My heart was like seizing, watching it. The fact that Rizzo came out at all, once that happens, no matter what Jeff says from there, they have fucked it up. Because why is Rizzo out there? It is. Yeah, exactly. So I think then it has to be just the sequencing and the fact that that happened at all before that segment at air. It's just a colossal mistake. The thing that we were texting about was like, why didn't they, because it's aired live on the East Coast, it's done. There's nothing you can do about it. So everyone will know and that's like really a shame. However, we were texting like, why did they not edit this out of the West Coast area? And Paramount the next day. Yeah, everything. Yeah, everything. Baffled by that until I kept watching and saw that the answer was clear, which was that Jeff then went on to a reference in five times from there. So you couldn't have edited it out because the rest of the show wouldn't have made sense. And I give Jeff huge credit for that because this was like, I mean, the fact that it's like what all the articles are about and it's like the lead of every conversation today is such a huge bummer. Oh, but wait a second. Next, next week. Did they intend to do this intentionally? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Get the news cycle going. But like, oh my god, I think there is something. This is the spin that I put on it if I'm Jeff. Survivor is a game about humanity and overcoming failure and mistakes. And so there is something so meta about it in the season where Jeff put himself into a challenge and then bombed and had to say, boy, I really like have more respect for what you guys were all doing out there. Jeff basically didn't say the right thing in his version of final tribal. And it's like a huge story that people are going to be talking about. Now Jeff can have his version of that moment after basically like 25 years of elite, elite work at something that's super hard. People, people were mad, Jason, this angered people I get it. I mean, he did spoil a huge part of it, but again, not his fault alone. It can't be. He's not running the cameras. He's not bringing Rizzo from the green room to the to the stage door. There's a million things other moving parts that are happening that had to fail to let that happen. Big winner, Rizzo, because he was just pathetic in the fire, fire challenge. And nobody remembers now because it was the pro's mistake. Guys practicing all day and he can't even get a spark for it all. First, what are you doing time loser and fire? That's another one of my controversial takes. I don't love the fire. I don't love it as a decider. I just feel like it's become, it's too important of a thing in the shows, legacy. I get it in the early days, but in the early days, they did a lot of things different. Remember in the early days, each person would walk in front of the three people left and it was almost like they were defense attorney, just ripping everyone apart before I loved it. Why did they get away from there? I wouldn't spit on you. Why did they get away from making the rest of what they would get up and walk? They would have a whole thing prepared. I don't do that anymore. Fire has has become much more important post like season 38 when Rick devins was notably eliminated after Chris Underwood came off of the edge of extinction and had the brilliant idea, really truly like revolutionary survivor idea that I've been out of the game for so long, the way to prove that I'm in it to win it is I will put myself in fire and say, yes, come challenge me, I will win. And he won and he ended up winning the season. That is that organically became such a moment that now it's basically part of the show. Yeah, I agree. I'm on the fence about it. I think sometimes it's very compelling. Other times not. I would like to see Jeff move fire earlier. Oh, yeah, surprise people with it. Yeah, interesting. We do a game of thrones survivor of all the characters who wins. Oh gosh. You know, we know Jeffrey, Jeffrey voted out early. That was good. That was number one. Jeffrey just killed somebody in the middle of the ground because he's so crazy. Yeah, everybody wants him. Jeffrey is a final three. Little little finger thinks he's going to win. But around like six seven left, I think he gets shanked little fingers. A classic overconfident, you know, a rational confidence guy and survivor for sure. So just had this debate and I made the case for Arya and Joe talked me into Tyrion, which I think is probably a pretty good answer. Because it's especially aligned with the canon of the show where like Tyrion makes it through basically everything he makes needs to make it through. And then at the end says basically in final tribal, like inexplicable things. Everyone's like, sounds good. You know, you get it. You play the great guy and it's a strong one. That's pretty good. I like that. I like that one as well. I would say also Varys because he's got a great story. You know, he just got the personal, you've got to be able to weaponize your personal trauma at some point during the show. Yeah. And who can do that? A tactical player strategic tactical player who can do that and win. But I also agree. I think Tyrion is. I think Margarine makes the final four. Yeah, really good. It gets a lot of flirt relationships going with multiple cast members who feel like they might have a chance after the showman, but they don't show me. I think she's working that and I can't have a Targaryen out there. They take their torch and they just light people and fire. That's not going to work, you know, who is the one Brianna Tarth? I think she gets to the final five, too. Well, that's a great one too. Because you have Brianna and James. And the Lions, no one really saw coming. Patrick would do well. I think Patrick would do quite well. Yeah. Oh, man, Jamie Brienne as a, as an Alliance and talk about like a showman. So will they won't they? That would be gangbusters, the kind of thing that Jeff could not stop talking about at the finale. And then Jamie has to make his source of your brand choice at the end of the world. Like, no. Too good. Well, the other thing is they're used to really malodorist people from Game of Thrones have been the 1300s, it's not a lot deodorant back then. You know, people are in the same clothes for months. They brought the family. You know, it's always emotional when the family members come out, but this is later than we usually get to see this. These guys stink. Like, they are right. Yeah, you don't even want to, it's, it's like a fist bump from a couple feet away, right? The brothers, the mom and daughter, okay. But Joe's wife, I could, I'm sorry, I'm just going to be honest. I was watching this and I was like, if Adam had made it to the final three of season 50 of survivor, and I was brought out on a boat. I would not lovingly embrace him and tell him just own your game. I would be like, can you, can you, can you like eat a coconut or something? Yeah. Can we, can we freshen up on the little thing before this is like really tough? Well, probably, the game probably blows out everyone's nostrils after like six or three months. Oh, yeah. For sure. He become nose blind. Yeah. Props at one point. He hugs three. Yeah. After something and he was like, whoa, he did both of those. Can you forget like how gaming, because it's like what, 90 degrees every day and they're just wearing the same shirt for six weeks? They used to be a lot dirtier too. I mean, they're filthy now for sure. Yeah. But they used to be so disgustingly dirty that it was absolutely notable, sleeping in rat filled caves. It's really like tone down from what it used to be on the hygiene front. I miss it. I miss those days. Yeah. There must be real reasons for that. Right. We just want an hour. Did we hit everything? I think we did. Yeah. It's just a shame that three didn't get to win the season. Just say that one more time. Okay. Oh, I'll just, I said it on the pod is spoken. And I believe this, I, I wish she could have been on a season that was a mix of newcomers and veterans, much like Boston Rob season, which no disrespect to Boston Rob. He's an absolute legend in the game. Legend legend. And it was him and Russell. He got Russell out early and a bunch of newcomers. And then it was just like target dummies to the one. That's legit. But I wish we would have seen three really work her magic against more newcomer players. Not just the best of the best. Have they ever done like over 40? The entire cast is over 40 or over 50, anything like that? Like a senior survivor on us? Gold and bachelor. But for survivor. Gold. When a senior survivor like crush, you know, like a little mini season of like 14 people, but then you get Colby. You get all these people. Anyway, you don't have to worry about the challenges being as dangerous. I mean, they can, they can also branded a little more like kindly like something about wisdom. Right. You know, the wisdom of the years, like they don't just have to be like, you, you fuckers are old. But I do think that they have started casting way too young. Like the bulk of the cast now each season is really. They've watched two generations of survivor. And I think it's like cool when people who have lived a lot of life are out there. So that would be, that would be great. I would love that. Maybe that would be what inspires my wife to finally go on. I've been pushing for forever her new thing. She would do, she would do. She would do amazing. No, her new thing was like, she was like, I just wouldn't be able to, she wouldn't probably three, four challenges. But she would also probably kill Jeff because the narration of him during the challenges, she'd be like, Jeff, Jeff the fuck up. I'm trying to. That's why you never quit on the survivor. And there's Keri Simmons with a Jeff shut up. I'm trying to do this. Try to do a puzzle. Stop talking. He really doubted up in general this year. I felt like it felt like, I don't know. He was locked in, which made the reunion think so funny that he fucked that up. Well, we'll see. We'll see how many people either get fired or murdered after I found their own ways. Yeah. Mallory, when are you going on? I can't, you know, I, I can't say I'm like up on all the conspiracy theories. It's got to be one conspiracy. You care about everyone you've got gestating, the door is open. You don't care about scuba divers and the Maldives, you know, I have been served a couple Instagram reels about that. I will say I don't know if it has any connection to survivor and the amount of like beautiful like ocean visuals in my, in my Instagram algorithm right now in general, but I'll give it some thought. If the production team of the live survivor season 50, the special mysteriously disappears, count me in. I mean, I'll be tracking it with the talent. It could be like the, with the scientists, when the scientists started disappearing one at a time. How many are we up to? Like eight? I think it's 11 or 12, I think we're up to. Oh, God. Unbelievable. I might have to come on soon because I have a whole NBA thing. Oh, please. I could do NBA. I'm waiting a second, right? Absolutely. We sports sports conspiracies are. I have a really hardcore, like I might have to get dressed up as conspiracy bill the whole thing. Oh, yeah. It's like one of those. Yeah. It's one of those. Okay. Well, the door is open anytime. All right. And we've got the zodiac killer also waiting for you as well. I know. I just got to do it. Once, once we get through the NBA third round, I'm going to really dive in the zodiac and we'll be ready. All right. Watch and listen to Miller and House of Ari can watch and listen to Jason. Wait a second. Great to see you both. It was fun to see you on the same screen. An absolute delight. Thanks guys. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Mahoney. Thanks to Jason and Mallory. Thanks to Gowon Eduardo as well. Don't forget to watch Animal House this weekend because that is going to be the next rewatchable on Monday. Get ready for that one. Enjoy the weekend. I'm going to be live on Netflix Sunday night after the basketball game, which is going to be game for Spurs Thunder. I hope I hope we have enough guys left on each team for an awesome game. Anyway, enjoy the weekend. I'll see you on Sunday night. 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