The REAL Story Behind The 1947 Dead Sea Scrolls Discovery | Dan Hummel

Shaq here. What's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100% online and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you. Your car is here, Mr. Shaq. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shaq. Hey, have you always been so big, tall, and handsome? Not always. I was 6'10 once. Seven days delivered or returned, Mr. Shaq? Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. See our seven day return policy at Carvana.com. Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. So Alessi Alamon, who's worked with me for a very long time, has had a chance to talk with you. And he said, you are the guy when it comes to looking at modern day religion through the scope of geopolitics and how things have been maybe, you know, changed all over the place. How'd you even end up like covering this kind of topic? It's, it's obviously like, hot button at the moment right now, but certainly a tough space where there's people with a lot of opinions in it. Yeah. So I'm a historian. So I came to all the stuff we're going to talk about today from being trained as a historian. I was really interested as a grad student in merging diplomatic history, which is how you, you know, study sort of the relations between different states and then religious history. And there's a bunch of different topics you could do on that. But the one I picked was, Christian Zionism. I didn't pick it in 20, this was like early 2010s. I didn't do it because it was, it wasn't particularly hot topic then. I mean, it was something that some people had studied and some hadn't. But I grew up an evangelical Christian. I, I sort of knew a bit of this world of the, the evangelical arguments for supporting Israel. Where'd you grow up? I grew up, so I was a missionary kid. So that's a, my parents were Christian missionaries. And that meant that we moved around a lot. So I was born in Orange County, California, both my parents are from there. But then moved to Texas when I was a baby and then ultimately moved to Germany. So ages three to seven, I was in Germany. You were doing some missions, some Tom Cruise missions. That's right. My parents were for sure. Actually, it was a really exciting time for them as American Christian missionaries. This would be in the late eighties. So there was still an East and West Germany and they were there and we were there as a family when the Berlin wall came down in '89. And then the, the country reunified as what we know today as Germany. And so East Germany was communist up until then, and was very much opposed to organized religion, um, particularly sort of American Christianity. So my parents were there and, and got to work in a very, what we call in the mission world, sort of an open field at that point. So right after reunification, there was a bunch of church planting and growing in East Germany. Um, so we were there for four years, moved back to California and then ultimately landed in Colorado Springs, which, uh, in the nineties was one of the big hotspots for, uh, evangelical organizations moving and cheap land, growing economy, um, sort of centrally located if you think it's, it's not on either the coast. So you can fly to both the coast a little quicker and, um, and a beautiful place. Rocky mountain is great. So I ended up spending a pretty normal middle school, high school in, in Colorado, um, Colorado Springs, met my wife in Colorado Springs. Um, we ended up dating all through college at Colorado state. That's where I really got interested in history was at Colorado state. Um, and, uh, particularly history that I was, uh, in middle school when nine 11 happened, um, Iraq war followed when I was in high school. So I was very interested in, um, foreign policy and the middle East in particular. So at Colorado state, I, um, majored in history and philosophy. And then I went back, we were just talking about this before, uh, I graduated in 2007 job market's pretty rough. Um, so as many people who graduate with a history degree do, they just go back and do more schooling. And that's what I did. Um, and so I ended up taking classes in Arabic, the language, and then middle East history, um, and really got into that. So I ended up getting a master's degree in middle East studies at Colorado state. Hey guys, three quick things. Number one, if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe to huge, huge help. Number two, if you'd like to join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes, you can join via the link in my description or the link in the description below. And if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe to the link in the description or in the pin comment below. And number three, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make content from the show and make money, you can join via the discord link in my description below. You still speak Arabic a little bit. I do not. I never really spoke it. I was really interested in reading it. So as a historian, the, the sort of, um, the, the, the coin of the realm is being able to read sources. And, and so, um, as someone who is interested in diplomatic history, um, you want to be able to read the transcripts or the memos that are being sent, um, between, between different, you know, officials. So I didn't, you know, that, that was part of the frustration of taking Arabic at a place like Colorado state is they really emphasize the, the, you could say the social and casual talking or verbal skills. And I was really interested in like pretty narrow, uh, vocab on government, uh, functions and things like that. I didn't really care about those. Does that say bomb please come on, um, intelligence and, uh, you know, economic terms and all that kind of stuff. So, um, so I know I can't speak it. Um, but I, I did have that training and, and that fit into my PhD program at university, Wisconsin, where I ended up taking Hebrew, modern Hebrew. Um, and I did actually more of that than, than the Arabic because of the topic I picked Christian Zionism. Um, I was very interested in understanding how did the Israeli government think about and perceive American Christianity. And what year is that where you're in grad school looking at that approximately? Yeah. So I, I went to, we moved to Madison, my wife and I in 2010. Okay. So from 2010 to 2015, uh, I graduated 2016. Um, I was at Madison. I spent a year in Israel. There's a great exchange program with, uh, it's called the Mosse program at UW with the Hebrew university in Jerusalem. So every year there's a bunch of students that go to the Hebrew U from UW Madison and vice versa. So there's these, um, I, I, what was that like? It was crazy. It was a really interesting year. This was 2012. Um, it was basically July, 2012 to July, 2013. Um, there was a Gaza incursion, uh, during that, I believe it was, uh, pillar of smoke or something was the name of the operation. And, um, it was the first time I'd ever had like a missile siren, um, in my life. So that happened for a few weeks. There were a bunch of missile sirens. Um, you know, we were students, so, or I was a student. Um, and so we were very, uh, we, we lived on a little, um, the whole year, but we got to live right down next to the old city, which is the sort of, you know, historic, uh, space. We're about five minute walk from there on, uh, Yafo street. So it was an eyeopening year. I had very little knowledge on the personal knowledge of, of Israel as a country of the west bank of any of that stuff. What'd you think of it living there for a full year? Um, so growing up in the evangelical world, you are presented with a very, uh, spiritual and, uh, sort of, uh, yeah, uh, spiritual and clean, I guess you could say, image of what Israel is like. And I think a lot of people who go on a tour of Israel, particularly Christians in America, they, they spend 10 to 14 days there. I think they get that view because they get to see the nice things that are built specifically for tourists. Um, when you live there, you realize it's no different than any other place on the planet in a lot of ways. I mean, there's plumbing and there's electricity, there's dust, you know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Growing up in a, in a religious home where Israel, the nation of Israel spoken about is like fulfillment of prophecy. You just get a high view of like, oh, this must be like, like there's some liminal space I'm going to cross and it's going to be something more than what the rest of the earth is. Then you take a shit and your toilet clogs and it's all reality. I got you. That's right. And people are just as, or maybe even more, there are a lot of nice people there, but you know, just as grumpy and short with each other as anywhere else. It definitely opens your eyes to the reality of the occupation. You know, we lived in downtown Jerusalem. It wasn't more than five miles away are major checkpoints that if you're not an American citizen or Israeli citizen, you can't really, you know, cross at any point. And where do they, where do those checkpoints go into? The ones I'm thinking about the West Bank. So Jerusalem is sort of right on the Eastern edge of the pre-1967 lines. That's right. And in fact, East Jerusalem was annexed by Israel in 1967. And that's one of these things that's being, you know, in some future diplomatic solution, something with East Jerusalem will have to happen. So that's even closer than five miles. I mean, that would have been a 10 minute walk for me, but but East Jerusalem is different. It was annexed. So it's open flow. Anyone can sort of go on either side of the city, but not the case in the West Bank. Before you took this year, by the way, how long had you been in grad school at that point, studying specifically like Christian Zionism related topics? Oh, Christian Zionism specifically, very little. So the first couple years of a PhD program, you're doing general classes. So you take a class on American economic history and another one on religious history. One of, if not the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my Patreon for early, uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in my description below. As always, please take one second to hit that subscribe button if you haven't already. I really appreciate that. Also, the like button's a big help. help and you can join my newsletter via the link in the description below. So I, I almost, I knew almost nothing. I'd read after you take those classes, you have to do what is called a prospectus for your dissertation. So you have to write up about 20 pages and say, this is what I want to study. And this is what I intend to find. It's a total shot in the dark. Um, you're sort of just trying to project like what you think you'll find. So I'd read maybe, you know, five books or something on, uh, modern Israel and, uh, Christian Zionism. So I had very little background knowledge. I was reading a lot that whole sort of in the six months to the lead up, I was reading a bunch of articles and stuff. Was it, was any of it morphing your opinion to something new as opposed to what you had just heard growing up? I'm going to come back to your childhood a little bit, but I like staying with this cause this is interesting. You spent a full year there early on. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so one of the biggest, uh, there were a ton of things I just had no idea about before, um, before moving there. One of the ones specific on my topic was when I read about Christian Zionism from largely American historians and political scientists, I assumed it was mostly an American movement. I assume the most, and there's a sort of famous or infamous, whatever, uh, journal articles from the eighties and nineties that would talk about the oddness of like Southern Baptist preachers meeting with Israeli officials and how like big clash of cultures that is. When I went there, I realized actually the, the Christians, who are interested in Israel for prophecy reasons or theological reasons, the vast majority of them are not American. They're Christians from what we call the global South. So from South America, from Africa, from Asia, like in terms of numbers, um, I went, I went to different sort of, uh, as an observer, went to rallies. Um, one of them had 5,000 people in the room. I would guess there were no more than a few hundred Americans as an observer, as an observer. That's right. I was, um, I did actually a lot of that. That's one of the, the, uh, things that is not historians tend not to do that as much as, as a anthropologist or something, but, um, no, I was not waving my flag, uh, at the same time in the air just to pretend to blend in. It's also a different type of Christianity. So, so the, the, the typical, um, Christians at these things are very charismatic. They speak in tongues, they raise their hands. Um, this is very common in that world. I didn't grow up in that world. So I, I felt out of place just even though we're all sort of, um, Christians, um, it was not my type of worship music. It was not, I don't speak in tongues. Um, I don't sort of, uh, I mean, I remember that there were healings happening in the room, you know, people claiming to be healed from long-term sicknesses and things like that. Speaking in tongues though? Yeah. You know what that is? Like the Voldemort kind of speak? The, the snake, uh, a version of that. Well, I don't, that would be really offensive to the, to the Pentecostals, but the idea is that the Holy Spirit gifts is sort of like speaking through you. And it's in a language that you don't understand, but it's a Holy language. So, um, this is very, I mean, there's hundreds of millions of Christians who do this, um, hundreds of millions. Oh yeah. Yeah. Around the world for sure. Yeah. Does it, does it have any like real patterns to it or is it just like making sounds? I'm a little skeptical. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, many, many people are skeptical as we get older, many of us fight the good old battle of trying to keep good, healthy hair up top. And one of the best things you can do for healthy hair upkeep is using red light therapy. That's why you got to check out my friends that I restore and their red light therapy cap. I restore elite, especially if you've experienced thinning, shedding, sparse areas, or any hair concerns, this product is for you. I restore makes it easy to bring clinically backed red light therapy into your home. No appointments, no complicated steps, just devices designed to fit seamlessly into your daily routine. The I restore elite uses 300 lasers and 200 LEDs to help regrow thicker, healthier hair. Most users are going to see visible results within three to six months of use. Just wear it once a day while you're working, watching TV or winding down at night, like I do. So whether you're focused on fuller looking hair, healthier skin building routine, you can actually stick with. I restore makes it simple to upgrade your self-care in the comfort of your own home. And right now I restore is offering some huge discounts on their red light therapy devices. Just head to iristore.com link in my description below and use code Julian at checkout to get your discount on the. I restore elite helmet or the Illumina face mask. Once again, that's code Julian at iristore.com link in my description below. Please support our show and tell them I sent you. And most importantly, give your hair and skin the upgrade they deserve so you can feel confident and refreshed. Um, by the way, someone who does this as Paula White Kane, who's Trump's spiritual advisor. She's a real gem. You can get YouTube videos of her speaking in tongues. Yeah. That's not exactly an endorsement for it, but, um, yeah, it, for, for most, in most cases, the, the tongue being spoken is, um, it's only, it's sort of a, again, I'm, I'm on the outside of it, but it's, no one understands it except for the Holy spirit. Um, so the original, so this is about a hundred and so years old, 1906 is when the Pentecostal movement started the original first years after that. So 1906 to 1916, say what, what was meant by speaking in tongues was a miraculous ability to speak in another human language that you didn't know. So you could go to get back to like missionary work. You could go. As just a total uneducated in the sense of like Japanese language to Japan and the Holy spirit would gift you the ability to speak in Japanese when you got there. And so there were reports of that. Um, they were, of course, plenty of people were skeptical even within the Christian world, but that was the original idea of what speaking in tongues was. It developed over time to be something that was much more, um, about this, this, uh, language that no one can understand. Now, other people might have the gift of, of, of translating it, that that's another one of these gifts translate the thing that no one else can understand, but in most cases that that's not happening. It's, it's only sort of an utterance that, um, you know, you're, you're supposed to basically acknowledge the spiritual power of the person doing it. Dave, can we pull up Paula Dean doing this, doing the tongue stuff? Paula Kane, uh, white cane, Paula, Paula Dean. I think, sorry, I did, you know, I did that on another podcast. I'm sorry, Paula Dean. That's twice now. Damn it. Yeah. Paul, it's Paula Kane white. Is that what you said? Uh, Paula white, Paula white cane and cane is the, uh, the journey guy, I think. Yeah. All right. So she really does this. Is this Paula white speaking in tongues with subtitles? We should leave this. This might be the gift of a translation right here. All right. Let's see. So, so the idea too, is when they, when they do the video on the crowd, is that every, a lot of those people are doing the same thing, but they don't have the mic. So, um, yeah, so, so that's, uh, that a version of that is one of the things I experienced going to these Christian Zionist, rallies in Israel. And that was just totally. So again, if you read the, the literature still, I think this is the case though, there's been a lot of good literature in recent years, but still, when you read the literature, you assume when you're going to see is a bunch of Southern Baptists who are pro-Israel and they're there, but they're like in a little corner of the, of the stadium or the, the auditorium. And the vast majority of these people are from Nigeria or Brazil or South Korea. And, um, they're, they're still very pro-Israel. We don't care about them as much when we talk about geopolitics because Brazil and Nigeria aren't as important geopolitically as the U S is to the, you know, fate of the state of Israel. But in terms of numbers, there's way more of them there. So that was one of the things I wrote a book in 2019. It was my dissertation turned into a book where I spend an extra year writing that to get a handle on like, what is what's now called global Christian Zionism. Um, what is this movement that is somewhat connected to the American political, religious scene, but also is its own life. Um, and, and to try to sort of see how, how are those things connected and how are they basically different phenomena? All right. Can I pull you back for one second? And then we'll come back around to that. And I just want to get an idea of like some of the origins of how you looked at this. So you'd mentioned at the beginning as a child, you were the son of Christian missionaries. So your parents were obviously highly involved living out their Christian spirit, like in the best kind of way, traveling the world, trying to spread the word. But that means as I'm taking it, it was really ingrained in you from a young child that you were going to be an evangelical Christian. This is what we believe. And you know, this is what it is. Like, how would you describe how you came to believe in like the religion of Christianity? Was it just something that was always there? Therefore you believed, or did you have your own journey with it growing up where you're like, okay, I buy this. I don't buy that. Yada, yada. You're asking me for my testimony. That's what we called in the evangelical world. Right. So yeah, I, I did. I never had, I don't remember a time where I didn't sort of just assume Christianity was true having grown up in it, but I do have my sort of conversion story or the day. I don't know the actual date, but when I was seven, so this was back, we moved back from Germany. We were in California for a year before moving to Colorado. I remember walking with my dad along the street that our house was on and doing a version of what's called the sinner's prayer. So like praying to God that I'm a sinner, I need forgiveness. I, you know, I'm asking you to come into my heart, Jesus, and I want to follow you. That's what I'm asking you to come into my heart, Jesus. And I want to follow you. That that type of prayer. So I sort of date my formal, uh, status as a Christian, I guess you could say to that. So I was seven. Um, I never had like a huge rebellious phase where I rejected all that and tried out other, um, religions or something. But I definitely in college, I was a history and philosophy major at a major state school. So most of my professors were not Christians. Some of the philosophy professors were very opposed to Christianity, or at least they were opposed to any type of Christianity that, that sort of relied on, uh, theology to, to argue for the validity of Christianity. And so that was a challenging period. I never had a crisis of faith, but I remember I read a ton and that's where I really got confirmed that like, Oh, I think I, I've always sort of believed this as a kid. I now have reasons that I can actually talk about for why I believe this. Some of that was reading people like C.S. Lewis, which is sort of very common. Uh, some of it's reading, this was sort of before my time, but I read his stuff, a guy named Francis Schaeffer, who in the 1970s and 80s wrote a bunch of books thinking about modern thought and culture and how Christianity, um, sort of intersects. with that. And then some of it was reading around some of these hot issues. This was back in the 2000s. The new atheists were a big deal then. So people like Richard Dawkins, um, and Christopher Hitchens. And so I read their stuff, I read the rebuttals to their stuff, and I ended up sort of becoming much more intellectually mature, you could say as a, as a Christian. So I think the bigger change for me was coming out of the particular subculture of Christianity. The Lemonati has spent decades keeping lemon on top and lime on the bottom of a glass of lemonade. They've put lime in the shadows. Their lemon agenda has infiltrated everything, even our music. That hit song named after the color of lemons? Not a coincidence. Big Lemon has been pulling strings in the industry for years. Think about it. But now, 7up is fighting back with their new lime lemon soda. Now lime comes first. 7up, flip the sip. At ZocDoc, we know you care about your health. You wouldn't do that early morning cardio if you didn't. So the fact that your annual physical is overdue just shows how hard it can be to get seen by a doctor. 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But that was the bigger change was sort of like working through that, relating to my family, which many of them are still in that subculture. And then also thinking about, I now write about that. So I write about dispensationalism, Christian Zionism, how to write about that in a way that sort of respects where I came from, but is also pretty different in my conclusions. You're going to, even though you guys were moving around a bunch, you're going to churches all the time. As you're growing up, you're hearing pastors preach and all that. Do you remember the first times you like heard them talk about like the state of Israel and how it was framed? I honestly don't. No, I don't. But there's a moment, it couldn't have been the first time, but in Colorado Springs, I went to a mega church. I've gone to mega churches a lot of my life. So these are these big 2000 plus membership churches. And I went to a lot of these churches, often in auditoriums. And it happened to be the mega church that a guy named Jerry Jenkins went to. And Jerry Jenkins is one of the co-authors of the Left Behind novels, which were these really popular novels in the 90s and 2000s. It was a fictionalized version of the End Times. The Rapture was in the first book, and then the Antichrist and all that kind of stuff. This is a big touch point, like beyond just Christian culture in the 90s. The book sold like 80 million copies or something. I think it was like the best-selling book in the world, the best-selling series until Harry Potter or something like that, at least in those few decades. And that guy went to our church. Now, it's a huge church, so it's like I never actually met him. But he was one of the Sundays in the main service, we sort of gave him a round of applause or something. And I assume it was because he published a book, because they were publishing all these books. And that drove me to be more interested in that series. I ended up getting really into the Left Behind books as a. Yeah. 10-year-old, 11-year-old. And that's where I really started. So I guess it was reading more than hearing about Israel. Because in those books, the state of Israel plays a huge role, a good guy role in what happens in the world. And then there's these particular characters who are Jewish that are very admirable, and they're portrayed as really protagonist-type characters. And I think that was probably. So I was 10, 11. That was probably the first time I really was like, "Oh, we're talking about this country, and I can see that country on the map. It's a real place." And it was very much inflected through those books and that particular theology that was informing those books. Got it. So what's that. There's that famous, I guess, verse in there that you'll hear Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee always quote. It says something like, "God protects those who protect Israel," and everything. Yeah, yeah. And I think where a lot of people go, "Wait, wait a minute," is in the Bible, when it's referring to that, it's referring to something different than the state that was created in 1948. Is that fair to say? Yeah. Well, that's the debate, is what is it referring to? So yeah, it's Genesis 12:3. So this is at the front end of the Bible. Oh, he's on it. He's going. Oh, yeah. This is probably the verse right now in this conversation. The verse. Yeah. There's a lot of verses, so this is the one you. Like a move from Jay-Z to this. Here we go. So the first 11 chapters of Genesis are the creation, and then the Noah's Flood, and then the Tower of Babel. And so the Tower of Babel happens in chapter 11. What happens there again? So the humans try to build a tower up to heaven, and God confounds them and sort of disperses them all around the world. And many Christians traditionally thought this is where we get languages and even sort of racial and ethnic differences sort of as. Interesting. And so the idea here is humans had so much hubris that they thought they could reach God, and then God sort of confounds them. And so this is in the story of. So the book of Genesis is setting up like the world. God creates a beautiful world, humans screw it up, how's God gonna correct it? And so Genesis 12 is where we're introduced to this character, Abram, who turns into Abraham. And this is one of the first things God tells Abraham. He says, "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you, I will curse." And that actually is worked out through the rest of Genesis and. Yeah. And it has sort of its own narrative purpose in the Bible. But what Christian Zionists do, what people like Ted Cruz do, is they make some interpretive jumps from, "Okay, this is a verse blessing Abram, Abraham." Now, Abraham is the father of the Israelites, and so is the father of the Jewish people, you could say. But the jump here is saying, "When God says, 'I will bless those who bless you,'" God doesn't mean just Abraham. He means all the people who are part of Abraham's family, and that the nation of Israel today is in the lineage of Abraham from Genesis 12. In Ted Cruz's mind, that is a very easy move to make, because in dispensationalism, in the sort of conservative evangelical world, there's a lot of continuity between the Jewish people of the Old Testament and the state of Israel today. For other traditions, including, frankly, most Christian traditions, Catholics, Orthodox Christians, a lot of other Protestants, God has a chosen people always, and they're called Israel. But in the Old Testament, that is the nation of Israel, the kingdom of Israel. In the New Testament, after Jesus comes, it's the church. All right. Can I ask about the nation real quick? Yeah. Was there a specific geographic area given for that when they were referring to the nation, or was it an idea of a group of people? So in Genesis 12, there's no specific territory laid out, but just a few chapters later in Genesis 15, God restates the covenant, or this is the beginning of the covenant. So another thing, like I'm going to bless you as long as you serve me. And in that, there is territory laid out, and this is the very. When Tucker Carlson interviewed Mike Huckabee, the U.S. Ambassador to Israel, they got into a debate about this. And in Genesis 15, the territory is very vast. It's from the Nile to the Euphrates is what God promises. So that's like a lot of modern day Egypt, all of modern day Jordan, Iraq. Yeah, this is the greater Israel thing. Yeah, yeah. This is the greater Israel thing. So in that text, that's what God promises Abraham, is like your descendants will have this land. So that's another one of these sort of things where people have different takes on that. But. One question on this, you know, how do you even, say that that was all exactly what it is and everything how do you even draw everyone back to abraham when there were so few people on the earth at the time that frankly his spawn is everywhere and you also have like here in america we have a melting pot of everybody right in israel they have some of that too because they have people whose ethnicity is derived from that region of the world and then they have people whose ethnicity is derived from eastern europe but they put it all under one umbrella so how do they put two and two together to be able to fit you know that feels like a square and a square peg in a round hole to me yeah i think for a lot of christians and frankly a lot of jews it's it's through um i mean i guess today they might do like dna testing or something um but it's through like this this through the mother i mean that's what the traditional jewish way is is if your mother was jewish you're jewish so the idea here is that there's a continuous group of people that um at least in the bible are documented you know generation after generation and then when the biblical story ends um are continue to be you know sort of part of this community some of its uh now there's always people that are not genetically related to israelites who are who are coming into the israelite kingdom so even there's the book of ruth so ruth is this character she's not israelite she's another nation she comes in and so it's never just um genetics but there is this idea that god has covenanted um himself to a particular people group largely genetic not not totally genetic and that that is a continual like sort of unit through history that um you know it has documentation going all the way from back then to the middle ages to to today uh there's a lot been a lot of people over the you know centuries who've been skeptical of that or said it's been it's been so diluted through all the different ways that of course a big part of the jewish story is they get scattered over and over again um but there's a lot of people who have been skeptical of that and they've been confused about that um and so they're intermarrying and uh and that dilutes the understanding of who's in and who's out right so um the idea here is there's always been a remnant and the remnant can be traced and that um the you know the jews who founded the state of israel were part of that lineage and so the state of israel is um is part of that lineage and part of that too is the way that evangelicals understand the prophetic so the prophecy books in the bible talk about um israel will be scattered and then regathered in its land and so that that's something that for the for these evangelicals they see that as something that when the prophets said it would be fulfilled many many centuries in the future and so they see a continuity here which is these prophets spoke to a particular nation of israel back in say 600 bc and then in 1948 it's happening like the sort of prophecy is being fulfilled and so there's a continuity to the story there so that that's another way they would make that case okay you and i were talking off camera before we we got on about the nature of passed down texts with any ancient texts including in the context we were talking about it with the new testament where there's some arguments about when each gospel was written how long after the facts were they therefore what's true what's been changed what's not and i recognize that as i was telling you like all ancient texts there's some level of error there because humans are flawed and you know we change stories sometimes over time but like if there's a way that we can do something about it we can do something about it we can do something about it we can do something about it we can do something about it we can do something about it we can do something about it truth in a bunch of these texts i think that's really really interesting to me when it comes to the old testament text though i keep thinking this while you're talking and i don't even know if we've talked about this on a podcast i'm not entirely sure but when we're talking about like for example the book of genesis or you mentioned the the the book of ruth or the book of revelations what what's the what do we know about the records of when these were written and and who wrote them and you know i guess it's best we can do it how long after the fact they're writing this stuff yeah yeah and that that's definitely not my uh my area specialty but i know the basics here and the basics are particularly the old the further back you go the less we know about um the origins of the texts like who originally wrote um you know the creation story um the the idea i mean the the sort of classic christian you know the the classic christian teachings that moses did because in one of the books early books moses sort of inserts himself as the narrator but um but i think we can say moses probably did some of it there's probably a lot of other things going on i think a lot of the scholarship talks about there's an editor that comes along centuries later and sort of smooths it out and makes it thematically linguistically more coherent and that we're talking about you know in the sort of uh uh 1 000 to 800 bc uh time period now the things in genesis are purported to be have happened you know thousands of years before that and and all that and and some of this is is um there's there's it's narrated in the bible that there's are discoveries of old scrolls in the temple of sort of after the king david era and so we at least from the stories in the bible we know that they're actually recovering their own scripture through the story of the bible um and so uh the the sort of you know you have some that are dated uh really old like that and then many scholars date the book of daniel as the last book written in the uh old testament and what do they date what do they base that on it being the last book written so some of it is is there are prophecies in that book that seem to be fulfilled in the second century so the depending on your metaphysics if you don't think prophecies are true then you would say well if the prophecy is fulfilled then this must have been written after that what are those prophecies so those are largely about um uh the the destruction of different uh sort of kingdoms in the second century some have to do with like alexander the great and and the the consequences of his conquest of that whole sort of hellenistic area there's also part daniel's also partially written in aramaic and that's a language that's more to the what we call the second temple period so like the second century bc through the second century through 80 70 when the temple is destroyed and so um it's the only uh book of the bible that has aramaic in it and so the idea is that's probably a later written book so you're talking about a a collection of books that are written over like a thousand years and edited throughout all that time it seems like every ai expert you hear from recommends a different tool there's the big ones we first heard about when this was all starting like chat gpt and claude now there seems to be an ai program you can use that has some sort of specialty in anything one's better at research another's better at writing another at coding and suddenly you have several subscriptions that are better at writing and one's better at coding and one's better at writing and one's better at writing and that's why i like using perplexity computer instead of locking you into one model it orchestrates leading ai models automatically picks the right one for each part of your project in what i do every day that could include things like researching the market finding the best flights to get guests in here and even automating some email follow-ups you give the computer the whole project and it breaks down the work into tasks and keeps going till it's finished a limited time only you can try perplexity computer yourself for free just go to pplx.ai julian that link is in my description below you can click it right down there that's pplx ai julian link in my description below to try perplexity computer today most ai tools answer questions perplexity computer completes full projects now by the time we get to um well certainly by the time of jesus but even before that there's a pretty standard uh text that that every jew is referring to as the law the prophets and um the poetry and and proverbs type type things that's where we get the word tanakh is is um tanakh tanakh so that's uh in english it'd be t-a-n-a-c-h okay um and and um this would be the torah um which would be the first five books and that's sort of the law um the i'm gonna forget the word now the neviim i think is the the um the prophets and then there's the historical books that would be like first and second kings first and second samuel they're just sort of narrating narrating through um the the history of israel and and and that's sort of the corpus that we call the old testament jews call the hebrew bible so by the time like jesus is referencing these various parts of the um the old testament during his you know during the gospels and um they're pretty set uh by that point um so we know from that point what's interesting too is like when the dead sea scrolls were they're pretty set by that point um so we know from that point what's interesting too is like when the dead sea scrolls were you know they're pretty set by that point um so we know from that point what's interesting too is like when the dead sea scrolls were discovered in the in the 40s um so these are sort of uh you know they are from the first or second you know they are from the first or second you know they are from the first or second century century century and no one's really touched them between and no one's really touched them between and no one's really touched them between then in 1947. then in 1947. then in 1947. these are in in caves that are just these are in in caves that are just these are in in caves that are just outside of the dead sea outside of the dead sea outside of the dead sea in in modern day israel and when those in in modern day israel and when those in in modern day israel and when those are discovered are discovered are discovered they had copies of say like the book of they had copies of say like the book of they had copies of say like the book of isaiah isaiah isaiah and that was really helpful to scholars and that was really helpful to scholars and that was really helpful to scholars because it was like well because it was like well because it was like well if we can sort of see what they thought if we can sort of see what they thought if we can sort of see what they thought isaiah was like in isaiah was like in isaiah was like in the year 100 and sure and compared to the year 100 and sure and compared to the year 100 and sure and compared to today we'll know how much has changed today we'll know how much has changed today we'll know how much has changed since then and overall not much change since then and overall not much change since then and overall not much change there's a lot of grammatical things and there's a lot of grammatical things and there's a lot of grammatical things and small um small differences but the big small um small differences but the big small um small differences but the big you know the the 80 90 percent you know the the 80 90 percent you know the the 80 90 percent of what we have today is isaiah is what of what we have today is isaiah is what of what we have today is isaiah is what the the dead sea scroll people had as the the dead sea scroll people had as the the dead sea scroll people had as well 80 to 90 percent yeah it might even well 80 to 90 percent yeah it might even well 80 to 90 percent yeah it might even be more than that it was really like be more than that it was really like be more than that it was really like like there were tons and tons of sort like there were tons and tons of sort like there were tons and tons of sort of like grammatical things of like grammatical things of like grammatical things and part of that is um hebrew doesn't and part of that is um hebrew doesn't and part of that is um hebrew doesn't have vowels have vowels have vowels um and so it it it can be um and so it it it can be um and so it it it can be hard to know um exactly what words are hard to know um exactly what words are hard to know um exactly what words are and stuff like that yeah it also and stuff like that yeah it also and stuff like that yeah it also has a limited number of total words right has a limited number of total words right has a limited number of total words right compare i forget maybe it's like 30 or compare i forget maybe it's like 30 or compare i forget maybe it's like 30 or 40 000 words or something like that i 40 000 words or something like that i 40 000 words or something like that i might be misremembering that as opposed might be misremembering that as opposed might be misremembering that as opposed to other languages to have much more to other languages to have much more to other languages to have much more yeah well english certainly has way more. Yeah. Yeah. And part of that's the verb structure. So like all Semitic languages, Hebrew has, you know, most of their words come down to a root of three consonants. And then you build up all different types of words out of those consonants. And so it creates a smaller sort of corpus of words than something like English, which doesn't have that verb structure and also is global and assimilating words all over the place. Can we pull up the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls? That's crazy that they find something like 1900 years later and they're nitpicking to find grammatical changes and things like that. But as you said, conservatively speaking, 80, 90% of it. So, I mean, there's a crazy political part of this too. So it's 1947. So it's right at the, um, you know, the, the creation of Israel's like the next year. And so this actually becomes tied up in a, a sort of politics of, um, claiming who, whose land is this, right? So it's like the Dead Sea community, um, was, uh, we think part of this, like this is sort of a radical set called the Essenes who were around the time that Jesus was around. There's some people have speculated that John the Baptist might've been in a scene. They were sort of separatists. Um, and so, uh, so the idea here is like, well, if, if, if we can discover things in, in the state of Israel that are from the first century, then like this is, you know, that's a pre that, that, that goes back before all the Muslim conquests. Um, and, and so it can be a claim by, uh, Jews that like, Hey, the, you know, we're, we're older here. Like we have, of course they have the Bible and, um, sort of the, the stories, but these are like actual artifacts, um, being found. And then, and most of the scholars who end up studying the Dead Sea Scrolls first are either Western American or French or British or Israeli, um, scholars. So, um, there, there's, there's some pretty significant, um, uh, Israeli politicians who started out as, as scholars or Israeli scholars who, who were studying the Dead Sea Scrolls in the forties and fifties. As you and I both know so much of this stuff, when it comes to these arguments where religion meets politics and stuff is based on semantics and based on narrative. Wouldn't you think that if you found something as. "Lemon has spent decades keeping lemon on top and lime in the shadows. Not a coincidence. Think about it. But now Seven Up is fighting back with their new lime lemon soda. Seven Up, flip the sip." "Finding a doctor is hard. It's hard to find a doctor. It's hard enough. Finding a doctor is hard enough. Finding the right doctor? Even harder. Someone who takes your insurance, has an available appointment when you need one, and feels like someone you can actually open up to. That's where ZocDoc comes in. 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ZocDoc is available on iTunes, know there's a whole big world out there of other types of people hey guys if you haven't already subscribed please hit that subscribe button it's a huge huge help thank you yes well so part of it would be yes there is a big world how many people have the expertise to read first century texts i do not um most people don't and and the people who do tended to be in the year 1947 tend to be in western universities um including the you know these uh some of these israeli scholars were trained in europe um in previous you know before world war ii and stuff like that so that's part of it i think they tried to give them credit they they did try to make this a more uh cosmopolitan global effort to study these dead seas girls a big part of the effort was actually just understanding so these are um these are parchment papers wrapped around in sort of scrolls put in pull them up deep so while while dan's explaining this but there's a good picture of that yeah and and they were often in jars um in in and the reason they're even um still around is because they were in very very dry caves where um you know water's the the enemy of keeping paper and so you can see from the pictures there i mean there's like you know scraps a lot of these are like scraps you're like peeling apart layers of these scrolls so a big challenge was just understanding what did they say um and that's where uh you can start you know you start pulling these away you see some of them are basically like the texts of of the bible um and you can then start comparing them to to the text we have now um so so a big challenge was that so they in that sense they gathered uh i mean it was under the auspices of the israeli government that's a big part of the politics here is who controls the caves and this is before it was created too so it's just like 47 is the discovery yeah so 47 is the discovery and um there's a whole interesting story which i don't remember all the details too about who actually gets to buy these things because it's sort of on the black market for a while or it's on i mean these are recognized to be very valuable they're discovered i believe by some shepherds who yeah let's pull that up whose sheep um or or uh other animals sort of like go into one of these caves so deep scattered right here the first seven original dead sea scrolls found in 1947 were initially bought from bedouin shepherds by two distinct buyers through bethlehem antiques dealers archaeologist elizara lipa sukranik and the dead sea scrolls for the hebrew university and archbishop mar athena's yeshua samuel bought the other four for the syrian orthodox church yeah can we hit the wikipedia the cia pedia one right there dave let's just see what they what they say so the dead sea scrolls do go up a little bit sorry dead sea scrolls is the narrow sense identical with the qumran cave scrolls or a set of ancient jewish biblical manuscripts from the second temple period that's that like hundred year kind of thing you were saying okay they were they were described as the dead sea scrolls the dead sea scrolls were discovered over a period of 10 years between 1946 and 56 at the qumran caves near ein fishkin in the west bank in the northern shore of the dead sea dating from the 3rd century bce to the 1st century ce the dead sea scrolls include the oldest surviving manuscripts of entire books later included in the various jewish and christian biblical canons including deuterocanonical deuterocanonical manuscripts from the late second temple judaism as well as extra biblical books as such they cast new light on the emergence of rabbi rabbinic judaism and christianity and their relationship with jewish religious traditions in the wider sense the dead sea scrolls also include similar findings and elsewhere in the judean desert and are sometimes called judean desert scrolls some of the scrolls found outside qumran are from later centuries almost all of the 15 000 scrolls and scroll fragments are held in the shrine of the book at the israel museum in jerusalem so they were bought off these guys who were selling them did we ever get the story of how they like they just walked into the caves one day i believe the story is they had like an errant animal like either a sheep or something that went into one of these caves and these caves are weird i don't know if you can pull up the caves are sort of like on a at least some of them are on a cliff and so it it's not somewhere where people would be walking by regularly and obviously for centuries no one you know uh no one walked by caves yeah so you see like the top left yeah see this one over one over right there whoa so all those holes right there right those are the caves yeah so obviously is that the dead sea down below like we're looking from where the dead sea is or am i uh that's a good question uh i don't know damn it dan you're supposed to know my geography is not not that good but okay um but yeah they're right there um you can go to them today or you can you i don't know if you can go in them but you can go and drive by them um still today yeah look at that one on the left do you see it gray on the far left over yeah yeah perfect oh are those people those are people inside are they living inside wait they have like cavemen yeah i think those are excavators okay well they were they were peering out like they were trolls under the yeah sorry excavators all right wow so a sheep went in there i think that's the sort of um that's the folk history i don't know if there's like a better documentation of that but the idea is like they stumbled upon them shout out to that sheep right right um so yeah so i think it's it's a really it's a really interesting way to kind of get to the bottom of this because i think it's a really interesting way to get to the bottom of this because i think it's it's it's a really interesting way to get to the bottom of this because i think it's a really interesting way to get to the bottom of this because i think it's a really interesting way to get to the bottom of this because i think it's a really interesting way to get to the bottom of this because i think it's a really interesting way to get to the bottom of this because i think it's a really interesting way to get to the bottom of this because i think it's a really interesting way to get to the bottom of this because i think it's a really interesting way to get to the bottom of this because i think it's a really interesting way to get to the bottom of this because i think it's a really you suddenly get to pull back almost 2000 years and see like, oh, how much of this is human construction between then and now. And what's interesting, though, too, is going back to who who got to do this. So as you mentioned, Western, some Israeli scholars did this. It's actually not the case. So a lot of those scholars actually ended up becoming quite they were not Zionists in the way that we might think of Christian Zionists today. even if they were Christian, they were actually, many of them became critical of Israeli policy because for an archaeologist, your desire is to preserve whatever's around. Wars don't preserve things. And for most of these archaeologists, they wanted access to the whole region. And besides Israel, the whole region is full of Arab and, you know, Turkey and Iran, of nations that are hostile to Israel. And so there's famous sort of archaeologists in the 60s and 70s who are very critical of Israel because you want to give them credit. They don't want war. They want to preserve things. If you think about just their own self-interest, they want to be on the good side of Arab countries because they want access to Jordan. They want access to Egypt. And to be very pro-Israel is a quick way to sort of get on the bad list of those countries. Yeah. I'm not going to get on the bad list. to get you inside the bars there yeah i feel you so they find all this stuff and what was interesting there in the language is how when they're describing these books of the dead sea scrolls or these scrolls i should say where it's between i want to say it was like third century bc and first century ce yeah and it used some sort of phrase like the judaic and then christian traditions yeah obviously and i'm way oversimplifying here you can go way more academic on me but with judaism they follow the torah which is effectively the old testament right and then with christianity it adds in the new testament and this figure is a messiah jesus christ and that's where the difference between the two religions are so when they say they found stuff within those traditions thinking of the timeline it's overlapping for before during and after christ based on the years right there yeah , but how do they if you're finding both how do you make sense of deciding that both can be right and let me ask that in a better way if christianity is right the messiah happened and it was jesus and it already it happened and therefore the the judaism religion that's waiting for the messiah to happen is is incorrect if judaism is correct jesus was just a guy who talked and you know he wasn't an actual messiah so not that i care but like it has to be one or the other there but it sounds like they found evidence and said well it can all be true or am i just misunderstanding that well i think what they were saying there was that the so the the old testament texts that were in the scrolls are claimed by both christians and jews so so you know christians claim the old testament as part of their scripture jews do is jews claim the hebrew bible so if you find a scroll of isaiah or jeremiah it's both it's both interesting to christians and to jews got it um now i mean you bring up a much you know sort of bigger question about um uh sort of how do you how does judaism christianity how do jews and christians think about themselves in relation to each other and you know for a lot of the last 2 000 years it's been a a story of of um conflict and antithesis the idea that um like you said that jesus came and sort of in the theological language we use now sort of the the church superseded israel so superseding as taking the place of so yeah god worked with jews in the old testament now he's working with you know anyone who believes in jesus and so um you know the implications of that theologically if you look at like augustine he says well the jews um are are going to stick around but as an example of what happens when a people of jesus don't follow them they're going to be they're going to wander they're not going to have a state they're going to be guests in other people's lands and it'll be a good it'll be a good teaching tool for the rest of us um to remember what happens so that's what augustine said that was in the fourth century what about the other religions that do have states though that don't accept jesus how did he yeah so he would say i mean this is part of the particular thing is like there's a particular both you could say closeness and animosity between jews and christians because of the claim that you know both are claiming the old testament and so that wasn't augustine wasn't creating a bigger i guess yeah theology of of you only get a state if you're a christian type thing but he was saying the particular way that the jewish people lost their sovereignty particularly they were occupied by the romans and then in in the year 70 um they tried to revolt or they tried to vote in 67 and by 70 you know the romans come in destroy their temple scatter them um the the the roman army puts salt on where the temple is as a sign of like nothing will grow here ever again and then since then you know up until augustine's time up until you could say the 20th century jews are wandering people they don't they don't get to claim uh statehood so augustine was saying that um throughout the middle ages you get other types of christian views this is where like the the anti-jewish idea of like blood libel comes from um there's also a bigger theological idea so the idea that the old testament is about laws and rules and the new testament is about grace and love and so christianity is a superior religion to judaism these are sort of the the the categories that christians and jews have through the 20th century so what changed yeah and again i i don't if it were up to me no one would fight over this stuff you believe what you want to believe we all have in common that we don't know what the happens till the lights go out anyway but since people do and this is like a really big deal the split in the 20th century it sounds like obviously it's even before 1948 when when an actual state forms but what changes such that suddenly there's now a group of christians who become you know rabidly in in in support of like the jewish state in particular yeah well it's part of a bigger movement you could say between jews and christians so some of what happens is you get more liberal ideas of religion in the 19th century that are less exclusivist and so you get christians who say yeah jesus is a way to the afterlife to heaven but it doesn't have to be the only way and so in 1893 there's a world fair in chicago there's something called the world parliament of religions put on by these more liberal people the world parliament of religions yeah funky uh yeah pull up some images of that um interesting and so you're getting not just muslims jews and christians but you're getting um hindu and buddhist leaders and uh yeah sometimes it looks so they're all they're different um so that's it that's an 1890 september 11th to 27th in 1893. yeah they're just all like chilling so this is this is in chicago um and the idea here is uh maybe there's a there's a larger truth that all the religions are pointing toward so that's one thing that just sort of softens some of the some of the edges another is by the 20s and 30s you start getting um this idea that the difference between communism and then fascism and the west is this religious tradition that goes back to the hebrew bible and so you start getting this is where the term judeo-christianity comes from oh it comes from that from the 20s and 30s all right can you explain that some more like in detail how specifically that rose so so the idea here is um it's really important that in the 20s and 30s so it's post-world war one yep revolution happens major red scare in the u.s and one of the questions that a lot of americans are asking is sort of what makes democracy and capitalism distinct from communism and one of the things that a lot of um not just you know people like woodrow wilson would come up with this but but not uh not just politicians come up with is well um these ideas like democracy and capitalism are based on christianity or christian ideas or bible more of the point biblical ideas um so that's interesting they base capitalism on christian ideas okay well they square that yeah so for cap well capitalism would be like you know the bible assumes sort of something like um property uh property rights um a lot of the rights language is in this era said like rights aren't just a natural thing out there like we want to we have to source them like and this goes back to you know um people are indebted by their creator with life liberty and pursuit right so it goes to sort of this idea of this tradition of of of western liberalism that isn't christian uh per se but is inspired by sort of christian ideas a key text here is in genesis um uh one when god creates man and woman he creates them in their in his image and so the idea is like every person every man and woman is endowed by their creator with uh the image of god on them so there's like a dignity to the individual person a lot of this was about differentiating the collectivism of bolshevism and communism and the individuality that was at the heart of western uh ideas of of of rights and and you get capitalism and democracy and things coming out of that it's interesting how that can go because like it's interesting how when i've read parts of the bible and heard some of the stories i'm always struck by how there's almost a mix of the two like there's a mix of individualism and there's a mix of socialism i don't mean that literally politically i mean that like some of the themes are kind of interspersed together and then when you look at how these systems if you want to put labels on it, let's say you have radical socialism and radical libertarianism. If you saw either of those put into place today in any type of large population, they technically don't work. You know what I mean? But it's like they had this weird balance in the Bible. People are going to twist my words when I say that, but that's always interesting to me. Oh, I think you're totally right. And that's part of what we're seeing in the American context is a largely Protestant reading of this. So you go back to the middle ages, middle-aged Catholicism, not high on individual rights, very communal, very- Pay your tithes. Pay your tithes. You're a serf or you're part of your community. The king runs things. It's not democratic. So it's not like every society that bases itself on Christianity has to become a Western democracy. But you're getting in the 20th century, people in America, people in Britain making this case that particularly a Protestant, reading of the Bible would put these ideas about individualism, dignity as sort of the unique contributions of Christianity to modern civilization. And they're pitting that against communism first. And then when fascism becomes a bigger deal in the 20s and 30s against fascism, both of them are seen as these authoritarian, absolutist type collective projects. Can we take one tangent on this? Because obviously we're talking, the change that happened to where Christian Zionism really rose in the 20th century out of the 19th. But just for like some historical context, because I always throw this around all the time, but there's a huge story in the middle of this involving Martin Luther and all that. When the Protestant Reformation, I think it was, happened to where they split, Martin Luther led the movement and they split off from the Catholic Church, that was back, I want to say, in the 15th century, correct me if I'm wrong. 16th century. 16th century. What led to that? And what, how was that? How was it set up differently? Obviously we know they're different sects today, but like what, back at the beginning, what were the key differences between what became the Protestant Church and the Catholic Church? Yeah. I mean, so Luther, Martin Luther is the guy that sort of kicks this off. He nails his 95 theses to a wall in Wittenberg. That's sort of the, you know, the beginning of the Reformation. His big concerns were about corruption in the Catholic hierarchy, in the church hierarchy. And then he was really worked up over this idea of, well, now I'm forgetting the term. Not tithes, but. Something involving payments? Yeah. Yeah. Involving payments for getting rid of your sins in the next life. And maybe we can. That's on the tip of my tongue. I know what you're talking about. Maybe Dee can find it. Yeah. Yeah. The thing that the 95 thesis, the thing the Catholic Church would make people do. I want to say it starts with a C, but. Would pay to get rid of their sins. What's the term for what the Catholic Church? Indulgences. It's not a C. Indulgences. Yes. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below. So the fact that you're angry, you're angry, you're angry, you're angry. Physical is overdue. Just shows how hard it can be to get seen by a doctor. Press one for more options. 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