The Real Rules of Power in America (How to Use Them) with Rahm Emanuel

This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses, setup required, compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. We heard you are on the Tiger Sisters podcast to announce your presidential run. Blink if this is true. I feel like one of the hostages in North Korea. Communicate with my eyes. I think people are yearning for a sense of threads that tie us together. They're exhausted from a division politics. There's no super glue to put it back together. There's no rubber band and chewing gum that's going to put this pottery back together. I love the Tiger Sisters. I've heard about it from checklists. From Kelsey and from Hillary. I've been waiting all this time to be here. I was in China once. I've been to your neighborhood. I know your mom and dad. What keeps you up at night? And what gets you up in the morning? I'm Sheree. I'm Jean. And we're the Tiger Sisters. We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. And we're a top 10 business podcast bringing late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. If you've ever watched the news, you know that some politicians have more power. Our episode today features one of the most influential figures in American politics. He's famously intense, blunt, outspoken, and he's served multiple presidents. In today's episode of Tiger Sisters, we're sitting down with Rahm Emanuel. He's a former U.S. congressman, chief of staff to President Barack Obama, former mayor of Chicago, and most recently, ambassador to Japan. He's a global statesman who's been on a bit of a world tour, criticizing his own political party. Today, we're discussing money, power, and love with a guy who has been in the room where it happens. If you know, you know. Rahm Emanuel, welcome to the Tiger Sisters podcast. We heard you are on the Tiger Sisters podcast to announce your presidential run for 2028. Something I lost in the translation. Like a hostage. Blink twice if this is true. Blink twice. Okay. Let's go. All right. Good. So, Rahm, you're one of the first guests we share with the Megyn Kelly show. Do you have range or do we have range? Which one is it? Maybe together we create our own range. True. I like that. That's kind of, yeah, there. So, to get started, I want to hit you with a few topical questions. The first one is, how would you lead a divided United States? How would I lead a divided United States? How would you lead a divided United States? Just a softball. No, actually, no. Well, given what's going on in the country. I'm joking. It's not a softball. Well, there's two things I think that are important. One, on the top level, I do think a president sets a tone and a temper. Temperament, rather, not temper. Although, sometimes you need that. And how you act would be important. So, one, people you put in your cabinet and also throughout the administration should draw on the strengths of both parties. Second, making sure that. One of the things I've said before, but I think needs reiterating. As it comes to, like, social policy, don't send a piece of legislation unless it's bipartisan. Won't sign it. If it's even to my own party, let me relate it as an example. I was the first presidential to a potential candidate. I endorsed the Dignity Act, which is a reform of both our illegal immigration and our legal immigration. And one of the reasons is it has 21 Republicans on it and 21 Democrats. We've got to get past this issue. It's true to being a nation of immigrants. And it's also true to being a nation of laws. So, setting that as a milestone, kind of a touchstone. And then, third, let me get to something both in and out. I was actually thinking about it as I was this morning, looking at some things in the paper. And it reminds me of a bike trip I did. So, when I was done being mayor, I biked around Lake Michigan, 984 miles, 13 days. And my joke was that I discovered in the process that the worse the cell phone service was, the nicer people were. But I actually think, on one serious note, you look at the reaction to how the number one news item is the Artemis space ship. People in America are all over this, in a level that they've never seen. Also true, after years aside, the Olympic Games. Third, as another kind of touchstone anecdote, I saw something today. People are paying X dollars so they can be in a reading room together in a community with other people. And we've had division before. We'll have division again. When you have a country this diverse, there's always going to be divisions. Gender, education, race, ethnicity, faith. Sexual orientation. But we've never had a president that exacerbates it. So a president, he's not the responsible for the divisions, but he is responsible for exacerbating them. And so I do think a president has a place. And I use this other example. Let me go backwards a little. And a reporter laughed at me. I think one of the fascinating things in music today is you have rap stars doing country music and country stars. No, but you laugh. No, it's true. But there's. You have two different music genres from way different, really different people and groups that listen here are different, but they've come together. Now, one, you can say that's just music, but I think it touches a chord. And so I think people are yearning for that. And the president has a moral component, or what Teddy Roosevelt referred to as the bully pulpit. So you can ignite that. You can ignite that, or you can continue to pour gasoline on the divisions. And so I think that's how I would do it. I think the music is a nice metaphor. And it kind of is saying something that in this day and age to be bipartisan is almost like a radical platform. Well, I don't. Well, bipartisan, but also, look, our politics has gotten into a version of Hunger Games and Braveheart. And we do all of it. And I've been guilty of this. I mean, obviously, I mean, but one example, I will say that contrary to that, so I'm responsible for helping the Democrats in 2005 and 2006 to get the House back and get the majority to make Nancy Pelosi speaker. While I'm beating the crap out of Republicans, you know, recruiting Democrats, President Bush and I work on the Great Lakes Restoration Act. I passed a landmark environmental bill restoring the ecological health to Lake Michigan, Lake Superior, Lake. Lake Ontario, etc. So you got to know how to work together and had every Republican in the Great Lakes states co-sponsor the legislation. That was my first bill I introduced as a member of Congress. So you can do that. And bipartisanship is one thing. But it's just. And I've been, as you and I were talking about earlier across the country, there's more consensus in America than there is in Washington. And don't lose sight. And don't lose sight of that kind of gravitational pull. It can get ugly, but it requires all of us working on empathy. And I will be honest, I need to do that myself. I have played a game that's in a bare-knuckle politics and sometimes, no doubt, have crossed the line. So all of us have to work on it. You two have to work on it. We all have to work on it. Not just listen to other people, but try to hear them, both what they're saying and the intent they mean to. And to communicate, even when we disagree. And I'm not sure I do a good job of it. Or my. I definitely know I have a spouse that thinks I suck at it. OK? Well, so as you're talking about bipartisanship in Washington and also the White House, we want to go back to negotiation and the topic of negotiation. So when you're a chief of staff in the Obama White House, your job involved negotiating between Congress, the president, and a bunch of competing interests. What is the most important thing people misunderstand about how major deals actually get done? And what is the biggest mistake people make when it comes to deal making? I will tell you two anecdotes to tease out a lesson. Gene Sperling, Bruce Reed, and I are responsible in the final balanced budget negotiations, the final item, the Children's Health Insurance Initiative. President Clinton had introduced part of the balanced budget agreement, kids' health care. It's called CHIPS. He had, he being President Clinton, pediatric care, eye and dental. But it would expand to these kids within, by expanding Medicaid. Republicans under Newt Gingrich counter with pediatric care, no eye and dental, but a separate program, not Medicaid, because they hated the entitlement, Medicaid. And my, one other thing, my dad was a pediatrician. He used to do rounds with them, so this is very personal to me. And also my mother was a nurse. And in the end of the day, we negotiated, it would be. the president's health care policy pediatric plus eye and dental but it would be the republicans structure which is it wouldn't be part of medicaid it would be the program called chips children's health insurance program okay 10 million kids parents work full-time make more money than medicaid but have no private insurance so they're caught in this gap now don't ever confuse means with ends a lot of democrats upset oh we wanted it in medicaid and i can tell you from being going on rounds with my dad as a pediatrician parents don't care how they get paid as long as your kids get the pediatric care of the eye and dental so the president's health care was more important and the republicans we gave them a win which is it wouldn't be part of medicaid and don't confuse ends with means the other means with ends the ends are they go health care 100 democrats vote against it because in the balanced budget agreement other reasons they voted against the balanced budget they voted against that 10 years later it's the second bill president obama signs to get reauthorized and expanded i led the negotiations on that second something i practiced when i was mayor in negotiations so let's say before you kick off formal negotiations i used to bring in all the presidents of each of the individual union and they're 70 some odd separate agreements we had and i said i'm going to have five of my top priorities or four pick your number you bring your four i want you to lay out why they're on the list i will lay out mine we will meet a week later you will respond to my four and i'll respond to your form so before you get sit down and you get your helmet on your shoulder pads you wear your jersey we're going to sit here and hear each other without and i have to be respectful to the leader they get elected so they have pressure points like i have pressure points i have to respond to the taxpayers they got to respond to their members this episode is brought to you by google chrome you think you know a browser but gemini and chrome that's new it can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks gemini and chrome is here for it ready to make anything online make sense there's no place like chrome check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies everyone i'm kara swisher and i'm skye galloway twice a week we get together on pivot to sort through the biggest stories in tech business and politics and we're taking the show back on the road for a live tour in november so we'll bring hot takes i'll bring the insight and the dick jokes and kara will try keyword is try to keep me in check you'll get to see her uh hit me in person live i'll do it if someone has to do it we'll cover ai whatever chaos washington is cooked up that week and every billionaire misbehaving that's all of them and you'll also get to participate in audience q a so bring your best questions scott will probably answer ones you didn't ask we also have secret special guests which you'll enjoy for every city get tickets at pivottour.com that's pivottour.com we are selling out so don't wait and we look forward to seeing you now some people say you know this is i said okay i would usually say in the first meeting i get these all four tell me which one's one etc now the second meeting was i can live with one but two and three ain't happening not happening yeah on the fourth here's what i'd like to change are you open to this and we would hear each other so when we got to the negotiations and the whole goal of that was can we create a context of a win-win sometimes i'm gonna win and you're gonna lose but you don't start there it's better in a negotiation or striking a deal to work your way up rather than start at defcon 5 and see if you can strike your way down um and part of that is hearing the other side no okay so if i can summarize why is that too much no that's like negotiation 101. well i would think so i mean i know you guys are with the ones with the mba i'm not i just i never took negotiations at hbs she took negotiations at stanford but the second story about negotiating with the unions is basically what we learned in negotiations class in business school is that you're supposed to have all of the topics laid out there you should have as much information as possible about what the other side wants because then you can as you said negotiate across all four issues there's sometimes uh it doesn't have to be zero sound this a little bit because i feel like we were getting along fine why do you have to play the spoil go ahead because i feel like this approach makes a lot of sense but it's very cerebral right this is assuming that your negotiating partner is someone who wants to get into the weeds and like talk everything through and is equally like logical and goal-oriented as you what if you're negotiating with someone who's just not i'll give you a mistake so let's go through we all learn from mistakes yeah okay i make a pledge when i'm mayor but i'm running for mayor chicago kids in our public schools had the shortest school day in the shortest school year in the united states of america there's 7 000 school districts we were seven thousand five hours and 15 minutes kids were out on the streets at two o'clock in the afternoon and parents were at work it's a mess no kindergarten no pre-k high school kids are walking the streets at 2 30. um when i make a pledge i'm going to do this so i get elected and sworn in may 2011 the contract that i inherits up 2012 call it may i could be wrong exact month but sure somewhere in 2012 later part in between i'm on the last year of mayor daly's last contract preceding seven years the teachers are getting a four percent compounded pay raise no increase in time at all and not that they deserve it the mayor has reserved the right in every one of those contracts going back 40 years unilaterally to pull the pay if the school system's in financial distress never happened i without consulting the president of the union who had a relationship i took her to a ballet together when i was mayor-elect we went to dance i took her to dinner and ballet to create a personal relationship you go defcon five i do yeah i go def i i unilaterally pull it so what i've done is i foster executive power i i did something a no mayor done and b i pushed her back at her back against the wall and her members either either you're going to stand up or you're going to pitch it there was no i put her in a fork in the road which was unnecessary so fast forward to the negotiation we end up with the first teacher strike in 30 years over two things education that i wanted one the full school day i got the kids uh an hour and 15 minutes and two additional weeks every year for their entire education an hour 15 minutes more so the kids got seven plus hours of classroom time plus two more weeks and i got kindergarten to be universal across the city so 40 000 more kids were getting full day versus kids basically only on the north side but you lost the teachers union not only lost it i made the rest of my first term miserable yeah a miserable living yeah i get re-elected my first despite yourself despite everything i did to try to stop it i call the first call i make is that night i can tell you exactly the room in the plumbers hall i call karen lewis the president of the teachers union i said karen you and i can keep doing this for four more years i'm you're my first phone call on my re-elect uh i'm gonna uh i'd like to hit the reset button to two of us i owe you that i owe the people of the city of chicago if you would like to i'm ready so my hands extended fast forward when the first the contract i negotiate comes up the first year of the my second term they work a year without a contract because karen and i had built trust and respect and it was over our attempts hers and mine to try to get stabilize the teacher's pension etc but i made and i've said this publicly so it's not the first time but that mistake colored the entire first term and it's on me there's no doubt about it so make so hearing people that's why tell me your what your wins are you're not going to get them all and then prioritize your wins and and when you say it you're telling me well here's my number one then that's number one that means you're going to be open to compromising on two and three so yeah i mean i'm also hearing from you you can rebuild a relationship you can't from depends where it is i mean i think one of the problems like to not to blow it up into what we're having news today do you actually believe when president trump says x nobody believes him so here we're about to go into negotiations we're going to obliterate your civilization every day within a single day he has four opinions on the same topic nobody believes him so the trust in america has been degraded to the point that is nobody trusts words famous anecdote in the middle of cuban missile crisis ally stevenson's our u.n ambassador Goes to see Charles de Gaulle about the Cuban messiah. Stevenson is going into his briefcase to bring the photos to show from the flight overs about the Russian nukes. Charles de Gaulle, the president of France, says, put those away. I have the word of the president of the United States. Now, do you think today Macron, Sturmer, Mertz, anybody, Secretary of State shows up, do you think any of them say, well, the president said it, so obviously I believe it. Not a chance. No, that's going to take you a generation to fix that. Quick pause, Tiger fam. If you're listening to this, it is so important to subscribe to the Tiger Sisters podcast. Yeah, subscribing is one of the most important things you can do to support Tiger Sisters, and it's totally free. When you subscribe to Tiger Sisters, you get notified whenever a new episode drops. And we are also starting a newsletter, so it is very important that you sign up for the newsletter now. The link is in the description. It literally takes three seconds to do, and we're available on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts. Now back to the show. So, Ram, on the topic of soft power, I want to talk about American hegemony. So, American hegemony refers to the United States' dominant position in the global political, economic, military, and cultural order. Do you think we still hold this position in the world, especially in the light of nuclear proliferation and the rise of major, global powers, and is it important to maintain it? I mean, when you have the largest economy in the world, the largest military in the world, and you still are a dominant cultural attraction, what Professor Nye refers to as soft power, yes, we are a leader. Has the credibility and capacity of the United States been degraded? 100%. So, I wrote this piece about a month ago on the Wall Street, and I wrote this piece about a month ago on the Wall Street, Carney said from Canada when he said, this is a rupture. There's no superglue to put it back together. Yeah, Mark's pissed. So, and he has every right to be pissed, but he's also speaking for a world that says, this is a rupture. This is broken, not to be reassembled. And I think Democrats that rhetorically talk about restoring the rule don't understand that for us to do that means the other side has to accept it and they don't accept us anymore. Now, do we have power? One, what's the toolbox? In the toolbox, there's many things, but there are four big things. Military power, economic statecraft, political persuasion, and cultural attraction. That is your toolbox in the national security. Now, every part of the world is different. So, like with Europe, just by memory, I called for, what I call modernization reform. Meaning, one, whatever troops are west of the Rhine River in Germany, if they're not nailed down and not necessary, move them east. Move them to Poland, move them to Romania, and tell the countries there, you're going to move that too. And I would clean up NATO headquarters. I'd go through there and say, we're making a 10% cut in everybody in this building. 10% are going to move as an active deterrence. Second, take what are called gray zone attacks, like with, UK just experienced with Russian subs in and around their waters, looking at the cables and pipes, et cetera. You do this, it's a NATO response. So, Putin understands that these things, blowing up logistic centers, creating fires, et cetera, here's when you cross a line, and this is what's going to come at you. And then third, economically, I would create negotiations right now with Europe around an economic agreement, around supply chains and new technologies, fusion, AI, quantum computing, life sciences, et cetera. So, we have an economic modernization and a NATO modernization, and we're working together again as allies. Now, in Asia, there's a different, I kind of call it isolate the isolator. China's trying to dominate the region. We got to reinforce, we're a permanent Pacific power in presence. There are three things that we do different there. One is on the economic front, one is on the security front. To reassure our allies, we're not going anywhere. This part of the world, between North and South America, I would have an economic agreement that puts America's economy at the center, which is how we push China out of our backyard. But there's all different ways you assemble the tools and instruments based on the priorities. In Africa, show up early and often, four-corner strategy, South Africa, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Kenya, build it around those four countries. That's how you build an economic front. So, we're not going anywhere. We're not going anywhere. We're not going region where africa knows we're not conceding this to the russians and chinese we're here we're staying let's work so it has that kind of analysis and that's what i would uh do from a national security point but you got to understand what are the tools what is the deficit the united states is and then have a regional security strategy security including economic political and cultural like i'll give you example in africa one of the great economic opportunities between the united states and africa no doubt is minerals no doubt is resources it's the fastest growing part of the world so it's markets that are there for american products but when you think about the sports engagement between the united states just take nba yeah parts of it yeah well that is an essential piece of your economic and cultural yeah that's our soft power i mean i've said but but but we have atrophied it yeah well okay that's part of our software but who's who's nurturing it who's taking care of it who's investing in it and realizing we have a president united states right now who has reduced three of the powers to uh sidelined them and reduce them a lot tariffs out of the american brand and he thinks that the only thing we have is military power yeah that's a real problem well it's interesting i think on the soft power and also like cultural influence something that um we've seen i guess over the last few presidencies is more of a social media leaning and i know declarative statements on social media on on x and twitter and so do you see this transparency between the president and the american people as a good thing or is it something i mean that you've said um erodes trust given the tweets over the last few weeks this to get back to my first thing yeah at one level he he has every president let me back up every president tries to figure out how to get past the dc security guards called the institutional media some people done in town halls some people different formats podcasts this president is using media posts but what in service of what and do i think it's transparent i don't think it's transparent with a president that's not believed so not trusted when he talks about the think about in the last 48 96 hours we had a president united states called that we were going to obliterate a civilization and a vice president in hungary saying we're going to restore a civilization and then we have a secretary of defense simultaneously calling for a christian crusade and everybody thinks starting with our the pope what are you talking about obliterating a civilization so he did it on a social media i don't think it enhances transparency although i think collectively the world concluded we have a president united states that's more than just out of control that there's something wrong as i jokingly say but i mean it with seriousness there's a movie called dumb and dumber probably pre your age so if they do a sequel there's a lot of competition in this administration for who gets to play the lead of dumb and dumber this episode is brought to you by google chrome you think you know a browser but gemini and chrome that's new it can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration blog or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks gemini and chrome is here for it ready to make anything online make sense there's no place like chrome check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus yeah more communication does not always equal good communication i get everybody oh it's social media it's tiktok it's instagram etc of which i want to ban for all 16 year olds and younger because i think it's destroying those kids and i don't believe an algorithm should raise them i think adults should but the medium doesn't tell you about transparency transparency means that you're honest and forthcoming and this is a president who is situational with the truth and i think that's a gentle way of saying what i'd like to say but i'm cleaning it up so we don't get you guys banned by the fcc say it how you want to say no and you know it's can i say something i want to egg you i know what i'm saying so i'm known for my foul mouth yeah we haven't seen it yet you can't well ready two things i'll say one senior advisor to president clinton member of congress chief of staff to president obama mayor of city chicago ambassador to japan you'll never never find me go back through all 35 years never we'll say it publicly now you get me in a private room and we're negotiating or something or whatever i'll let it go but nope now jokingly so my wife's from a small town in ohio republican family and on sunday shows during the clinic she goes she would always call us oh rom did well i said and i said to my mother-in-law mary you don't think i did well you were just holding your breath for 12 minutes seeing if i could get through without letting go an f-bomb or something like that but i don't ever do it publicly now all of a sudden there's all these stories of democrats oh they're like it's passe now now i'm gonna move on i'm not gonna do it ever again but i all i president obama jokingly once said that when i lost my middle finger i was left mute for a year i couldn't say anything but i don't ever say it publicly yeah it's not appropriate it's disrespectful yeah private you turn off these cameras and the microphones give me a topic on trump and i'll let it go okay so one thing we don't talk about enough is how much research goes into every episode of tiger sisters and every episode is chock full of research facts and stats and that's why one skin really stands out to us as a skincare company because it's not just fancy packaging it's actually real science with real stats real data and also women with phds yeah and these longevity researchers have actually created os1 which is the most popular and most popular one skin's proprietary peptide which slows skin aging directly at the source i love how it fits in my everyday routine and my skin feels amazing and this isn't just my own experience one skin's products are backed by lab and clinical data including four peer-reviewed clinical studies to validate their efficacy and safety on all skin types yeah i also love that they have over 10 000 five-star reviews born from a decade of longevity research one skin's os1 peptide is proven to target the visible signs of aging hello to all of you who are watching this video i'm helping you unlock your healthy skin now and as you age for a limited time try one skin for 15 off with code tiger sisters that's oneskin.co tiger sisters that's 15 off with oneskin.co tiger sisters after you purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them please support our show and say that the tiger sisters sent you and now back to the show yeah okay since you mentioned obama let's do some impressions would you guys just like an inside joke the way you're laughing we want to do an impression of president obama and since you've been with him in the room can i do a president clinton impression instead yeah yes and we'll rate it one through ten but we we want you to rate our impressions yeah as well like we're gonna compete against each other you want to go first or you want me to go you go first i need to hear this you go first i love the tiger sister i love being on this podcast it's like i i've heard about it from chelsea and from hillary and it's i've been waiting all this time to be here have i told you i was in china once i've been in your neighborhood i know your mom and dad they're fine people i think they i got a big china chinese community in little rock but also up in greensboro they're great people there too big chinese community okay that's gotta be a 10 that's gotta be a 10 you get yelled at for seven straight years and you kind of pick up on the yell i can't do okay i want to see your obamas okay you go okay this is my obama impression okay america we have been more divided than ever what we need to do is come together as a nation under one keep that in mind and then jean will go and then you can see should i say the same thing sure i'm not she's taking improv classes okay at stanford i don't know why but okay you can also use an improv class at stanford it was a dance improv not an improv well there you go you can use your hands too he's like a very all right i'm well aware what he is all right rom i want you to research this where is this southern drawl for me i mean that's southern where did you get i mean i don't got it he lives in kenwood in chicago which is on the south side but it's not a southern city i didn't do southern right yeah you did it slightly i think you i think you're both influenced by my arkansas maybe i think that was you should have gone first rom i want you to take this seriously all right so i won i win by default hers is too sunny you do it you do it okay i'm i'm no i can't do obama why not i can't i just uh i'm not good at it i'm sure it's better than mine well that's without a doubt okay uh he's you know one of the things obama would do not acts at once so if you were sitting here uh he did this to men not to women he would comment on your attire if he thought it was uh wrong or something like that like i like like fashion police style totally totally he would do uh like was it to help you out no because you can't change your outfit in the moment or i guess it's just like you know hey man what are you wearing he would go like something like this i think that your shoes need to get uh buffed something like that it was like he would say it is a suggestion a healthy one but it was a criticism it was masquerading as you know maybe you want to get buffed but it was don't show up in my heart in my office yeah he was a respect thing it was like i think you're cleaning it up i think he wanted to take you down a notch or two in front yeah well he's like show up right or don't show up at all yeah that's what he was saying he said come correct to the oval office uh i had a picture in my in the mayor's office side by side of clinton and obama at their desks yeah i heard their deaths just done from the door shooting in and president clinton's desk had it looked like just total chaos slightly reflection of the personality which is he was doing multiple things multiple times at different multiple but there was actually the cabinet stuff the books he was reading the the coins he was given by military people pens as gifts he loved really fine points there was order if you knew his picture first day with president obama first meeting him president united states at 9 a.m that first day nothing i come as mayor three years later i remember the meeting and you look at there's a shot over our shoulder to the desk nothing tight okay very you know chaos versus cleanliness that was it and you could tell everything about their personalities and how mine is clean gets crazy during the day i clean it up at the end of the day and so when i walk in in the morning it's uh clean are you a zero inbox type of person like you need to get your inbox down so i have a so president obama and i share this so every week i have a business card i carry it has my to-do list that i make on saturday and sunday for the week when i was mayor you have that every week and you get things off second is you have one for each year that you do at the end of the year and then you have one for each term now there's this great photo that the president obama gives me as my departure gift it's the to-do list we had for 2010 uh with a little note on his left-handed signature not bad for a day's work and it's a photo because at every end of every day we would take a walk around the south uh couple times around the uh south lawn around the uh driveway and he's rolled up is the to-do list and rolled up in my hand and we're and michelle used to read oh the boys are going for the walk and we had we were to-do list people and we would have our to-do list for the week for the year for the a minute for the term and i kept that i've always had that tradition but i kept it uh as mayor and i kept it as chief of staff and i keep it now it sounds like you guys were very aligned in your style operations yeah we had different views on things but yes very aligned on the sense of order keeping people on task don't get distracted make sure the goal is set so we know what we've accomplished and did you write your to-do list on the back of a business card because it forces you to be concise not a business card it was a oh like a little small like a two by four it was a and i have a the kids joke because they framed each of the business you know the chief of staff card the ambassador card the mayor card the congress card that i have yeah there's little cards made and i keep them and i rewrite them each week saturday and sunday going over the weekly reports from the week before by each of the cabinet members you do a version of that yeah i'm very big on to-do list too me you obama we're all we're all the same why are you laughing why are you laughing because because of us only one went to business school the other went to law school and the other one went to classical rhetorical school yeah i i'm sure that that's exactly you went to which business school stanford business school harvard oh wow did you guys like it yeah i loved it okay i mean my middle one is now at the unit she's going to drive she's going to be angry that i'm doing this but she's a navy reservist but she's going to university chicago and she's getting a joint law and business degree oh wow yeah overachiever i don't know about all everybody else in the family says this is going to be the worst three years of our lives with a lot of because come finals and papers oh my god none of us can be i told i said everybody let's change her phone number so she can't come and yell at us for because of this she handles stress by yelling at uh the ones she loved well also after nobody can tell her nothing because she's gonna have a law degree and a business degree uh well don't worry she doesn't need those to tell her okay i'm not sure that's just certifying what she already does yeah that's funny um i do have another question about obama because president yeah president obama because you have spent so much time with him and i think he's famously known to be very charismatic so like what do you think it is about him that creates that like persona and is there something that i feel like you've learned from him or like drawn from being around him for so long well he first of all he has a unbelievable uh winning smile it's very warm it's very enduring it's very uh it's kind of like a stanford business school smile right yeah like exactly and an improv class just like that right uh and i do think he uh i think both presidents that i've worked for different different mannerisms different but they had an ability to make a connection that was consistent with their character and i think that was i think that's what i would say um now they did it differently i mean i used to tease president obama that you know not everybody had a university chicago or harvard law degree okay so we just can't go to the head we have you know i don't know if you know this but in politics there's this thing called the heart and the soul and you gotta get uh and president clinton had a different kind of kind of uh way he dialed into people but like folksiness not folksiness i just think he understood people emotionally in a different way than uh i mean i'm contrasting two different presidents two different styles but in the end of the day they had a um wide reach let me say this i used to in my analysis of both loving reading history of presidents but also working for two you know president has to be i'm saying this metaphorically has to be bilingual you got to be able to be conversant not only in the board room but the break room as well and um not every person could do i mean some i mean just just straight up they you know um can't kind of navigate um uh the two i'm using two different rooms i happen to think the white house in the oval you have to be conversant in the family room the classroom the break room the boardroom in the situation room my concern with democrats has spent four years in the bathroom and they haven't gotten themselves out of it yet there's you got to really but you got to be a not multilingual rather than bilingual you got to be able to converse in a level comfortable with each of those rooms and both presidents while they had their own style that was natural to who they were were capable of that that's what makes them six roosevelt was like that okay when you think about it teddy roosevelt was like that the successful presidents there's a dimension of communication to a wider public it's the only national office we have yeah and so you got to be able to speak to people where they are and both of them have to be able to speak to people where they are and both of them have to be people where they are and both of them have to be able to speak to people where they are and both of them did it successfully in my view i okay and it was tested during their presidencies each time in a way i love this topic because a lot of our audience for tiger sisters i feel like our you know early or middle in their career and they want to build like a long-lived career and you know being powerful is a part of it and i feel like this is like a component of power that isn't really talked about a lot it's about having this ability to connect you don't think so i don't think so maybe i'm maybe i should share my reading list with you guys i think uh no that's true look one is you can't um let me get back to this other point where we're using about the f bomb and stuff you know people are saying oh democrats should use that i said well that's performative then it's either natural or not and i think the power of both president clinton and president obama remember it wasn't exactly a linear line and they were perfect it gets tested at different moments and different stress levels in the presidency there's a lot of challenges but their communication and the sense of what people thought was in their heart not just their head is what sustains them when that president hits a presidency hits a valley um and i mean that was true using president obama i mean in the low points of health care and trust me it's low we're in a dark valley people forget this while we're trying to negotiate the health care bill in the senate president makes a simultaneously a decision to expand uh and try a surge for afghanistan and i said this jokingly but it's true those who were for our health care policy and wanted to see it pass were against the president's afghan policy and those who supported him on afghanistan were opposed to his health care and my as you say our job mr president is to make sure these two don't trump the tracks and converge and hit each other so his communication ability and people to in the end of the day while they may disagreed with him trust him and trust his motivation and that communication to go from the family room to the classroom to the boardroom to the bake room to the situation was important it was a piece of capital that you draw even in the low moments not even most important especially okay so being able to communicate in all different instances with all different people and have them receive it seamlessly as authentic to your character yeah i mean there's different mode let me give one on a president um uh clinton so he's at a very very low point loses the house and senate in 1994 the midterms of his first term people are openly talking about he shouldn't run or somebody's going to challenge him in the democratic primary oklahoma happens meaning the bombing in oklahoma city president clinton goes three days later and there's the first time we've had a domestic terrorism act like that not going all the way back to the palmer bombings and that happened at the turn of the century and he gives his speech in oklahoma city drawing on his own depth and knowledge of the bible and he in a church and he talks about being with you as many tomorrows as it takes until oklahoma city is back now pause back in 1994 nobody said or 1995 when this happens that he was going to a red state in a red city etc we didn't think of the world that way mm-hmm but he didn't win oklahoma but he goes there and he talks in a way that a governor a former governor from arkansas grew up that people in oklahoma understood that he understood and knows how they lived their life didn't talk down to him talked at a level that they could hear the voice of their president in their moment of anguish as well as the country's moment of anguish president obama at emmanuel baptist church in south carolina with this horrible shooting and very memorably leads the congregation in a singing i think it was amazing grace if i'm remembering it right i remember that well you remember it so see it's it scored so both points in a low point for the country in a horrific event the presidents found the more what what teddy roosevelt called the bully pulpit of the presidency um i mean this seriously but it's the criticism of our current president he's all bully with no pulpit he could never go to a church and both of them in different venues while they normally speak from the podium we're conversant at the pulpit and they're different places and you got to know the difference between the podium and the pulpit meeting people where they are but yes and being conversant with a spiritual sense not just a legal or moral but something that was that at that moment when america was terror torn through terrorism or and a shooting at a church found the spiritual connectivity that people were yearning for and reading that right and then communicating and lifting people out of their despair so ram on the topic of power what is the most powerful role aside from the president of the united states you've seen washington at all levels is it the chief of staff role secretary of state no what yeah what what do you think parent yeah i think a parent is the most powerful role because they shape the next generation i really mean i know you wanted me to take a title position look if you want that yeah give us both oh no okay i'll come back to parenting okay because i think i take that seriously and it's the most it's the longest serving institution we've had in human history family and it's the only way you learn how to do what's next is from two people in your life um so in the i i've been fortunate in my life um not only been elected by the people of the city of chicago either on the north side as congressman or as mayor uh the mayor of chicago is the most powerful mayor position both historically as well as constitutionally in the united states of america so no mayor has the prior to what they did afterwards which was you had schools community colleges parks libraries transportation and housing all report to the mayor you appoint the boards and the person you had the two the biggest airports or here are the biggest airports and you also have midway you had police fire all sanitation streets and sand everybody reports to the mayor you're also as mayor president of the city council so you're the speaker of the house so you are literally it is an incredible historically as well as constitutionally the most powerful now i take this is why i ran so 40 000 kids today have pre-k that never had it before um their parents know their children are going to have a full day of education and another 40 40 000 plus have full-day kindergarten that they never had we're the first city ever uh others have followed i've made a policy that if you got to be average in high school community college was free tuition books and transportation and 20 000 kids have made themselves not only available but their parents didn't have to pay for it didn't have to go in the book store they didn't have to go to the book store they didn't have to go to the book store poorhouse didn't have to make the choice between another job and which child gets to go to school and also if you kept the b average in community college we had every college and university throughout the state of illinois would give you 25 to 50 off of the next two years so kids were graduating college with no debt i love it um and you can do those type of things now to another piece of legacy that i'm proud of is um chicago's original city plan here in the state of illinois had it was a two waterfront city the lake which is stunningly beautiful etc that was open only city on the great lakes has no industrialization and then i created a river walk on our river and uh and four boathouses for canoeing and kayaking and the river which had been industrialized in the city was never really part of the city and re by through the river walk which was written up as one of the great public investments created a space that had never existed and so i've been working on it for a long time and i've been working on it for a long time and i've been working on it for a long time and so the mayor has a capacity um okay and so when i walk in about a decade earlier secretary william bennett of education and called it the single worst public school system in america when i walk out sean reardon at stanford the leading demographer on education called it the single best of the top 100 public school systems in america now it took everything in my soul yeah so when you say what is the most powerful i wrote a book about this which is called nation city mayors are where people or city local government where people live work and play it's the government that's closest to how you live your life is there a stop sign on the street what are the library's hours is there a charter school neighborhood school what are the schools that people will go to in the area what's the type of public safety you have in this area i've always said for a neighborhood school what are the schools that people will go to in the area what's the type of public safety you have in this area i've always said for a neighborhood or community there's five public investments that will determine the success of that neighborhood public library public parks public transportation public schools and public safety and if you do those five a neighborhood could both residentially and retail wise succeed so the mayor or local government has a power that is different now at the national level at the national level the chief of staff of what i've done yeah the chief of staff to a new president um when you look at the results i mean there's millions of people that have health care today that had pre-existing conditions and never would have had it before there's communities with new community health care clinics that never had it before that we put a 20 billion dollars into the community health care that's best preventive health care in america this community so there's things you can do that materially you know if a parent has a child with pre-existing conditions and you can't get health care that's a that's a something that's going to you know as i say there are two things that will happen in your life what keeps you up at night and what gets you up in the morning and a child or a loved one with a pre-existing condition and the rest of the family suffers because they can't get health care that will keep you up at night and we check in the president and as the chief of staff for him at the time change that for millions of americans and if you're going to be here on earth the goal is to leave the world a better place and to be a part of the community and to be a part of the community and to be a part of the community this episode is brought to you by google chrome you think you know a browser but gemini and chrome that's new it can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration blog or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks gemini and chrome is here for it ready to make anything online make sense there's no place like chrome check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus yeah we talk about for our tiger sisters our mission is to improve the lives of a billion people a billion a billion we're talking trace trace comas through this podcast yeah through this podcast through our media okay media our content yeah this is just the beginning we just started a year and a half ago okay what number are we at on that billion i want to see this i want to see the clock well we're already at hundreds of millions okay you know um there's a uh jewish uh term oh we know them all we grew up on long island okay sadaka that one i don't know okay well sadaka no it comes out of the torah a moral teaching and it's if the premise is that if you save one soul or one individual you saved humanity and the charitable is sadaka but that's not a financial but you know i think this i think back to my parents and i think about what they taught us in the sense of the moral teachings of life in your life look you can say a lot of things about what i've done right and wrong i trust me when i call my middle one i'll know what i did wrong but 40 000 kids have pre-k today that never had it i think i left the world a better place i know 20 000 kids went to college whose parents didn't go to college and they did it without having to go to the poor house so did you leave the world better that's our goal sadaka so in case you guys meet a nice jewish boy in your life i want you to say where are you on sadaka if he doesn't know get him out here well since you bring that up okay so we do talk about money power and love that's kind of our three pillars okay so we covered money and love or just power we're just getting it we're just getting into love now okay so i'm single oh and you know you bring up oh if you meet a nice jewish guy so i guess like i don't know do you have any advice for you're you be who you are and that's going to happen uh and that's my view number one number two given probably you should be asking my kids but um obviously different activities and stuff like that that you do or so you meet more people you guys said you lived together and you lived together you work together you drive here together he's like get out of the house maybe you don't spend so much time together walk without her okay yeah yeah yeah no but that you know i'm not i'm not the person to ask on this although i met amy on a blind date yeah okay and you've been together like 30 plus years right so i'll tell you a joke 31 to be exact i know for amy it feels like 65. i used to joke my dad passed away at the funeral i said my parents were married for 64 years and they argued for all 67 of them uh no you guys met later and you were both in your 30s yeah yeah we met later in our life uh uh but uh jokingly so we meet on a blind date amy's conclusion was uh we should have known it right then one is i showed up 15 minutes early and she goes he's waiting downstairs our whole life i'm early she's late and we barely compromised 20 minutes early to this to this this used to be my big beef with president clinton you can't be two hours late it's disrespectful so i am early that is a constant okay uh and she'll always amy said if we ever had a fourth child she would name it patience as a daily reminder and i said patience is a waste of time now get out and meet people have friends help you yeah yeah but don't rush it okay yeah until when you know you who you are so i don't think i could have done a family if i hadn't made one of the milestones of my career which was working for a president once i've kind of clicked on that i felt like i could open up and do other things so you'll you gotta you have i have all the confidence if not the emmanuel boys will take you under our wing and make sure we guide you yeah see now you're my friend so you're gonna be helping me yeah yeah it's very important in life to find the right part it's the most important decision here's what we're going to do that affects everything rom and zeke will take you under the wing and we'll guide you okay okay all right wait so you're going to set gene up on a blind date well i know what i'm going to do first of all i want to i'm going to zoom with any guy you meet i want he has to go through me first or on the back this is more barriers i need less barriers i need more no how about this top of funnel well you just say look we'll go on this date but i want you to talk to a friend of mine rom afterwards and we'll see if you can leverage that a little okay that might scare them off actually i feel like this is well we'll see if he's done if the guy's not up to it we already know he's not like forget about it true put him on the sidelines of the you know highway i have enough requirements already i think yeah so well my my view is okay live together work together maybe how you get here slightly separate and go a little a little solo fly solo for a second okay okay yeah get out there more yeah yeah 100 get out there more maybe some blind dates 100 okay yeah i did blind dates maybe it wasn't my first blind date i know you find it weird but i thought she was cold and she and i she thought i was arrogant and amy said well we're both right and the rest was history yeah yeah three kids later well i love this um discussion about family and we want to transition into um the relationship that you have with your brothers because you are um a powerhouse family like you of course have a legacy in washington and in policy in chicago one of your brothers you help shape health care policy for the nation and another one is a media mogul ceo and you guys are very much like the tiger brothers of our tiger sisters in that way and so i'm so curious what that dynamic was like growing up in terms of competition and nowadays when you guys debate who wins so here's how we grow up we are very we're also very close in age so like when you told me you guys are seven years apart we're like oh my god we're so close we're so close we're we're i think z ari is 16 months to the day younger than me okay and we shared a room growing up and while i'm very cleanly and meticulous when we were growing up my father's joke was that um that room was so messy that we would wake up in the morning look for ourselves it was so messy zeke because he was the oldest and a jewish fan he got his own room now the other truth is mom and dad wanted a room because we had at different points in our life our grandparents lived with us we had a foster brother live with us so there was always a room for whoever was showing up i mean we literally always had a seat at our kitchen table it was like whoever you know somebody you halfway through dinner you would say how long you staying because people were just showing cousins friends of children of my dad's patients lived with us for months and so there was a room available for that foster person many times it was a room available for that foster person many times it was uh the first eight years i was my six years of my life was my grandmother on my dad's side and then when i was 11 and 12 and almost and 13 part of 13 grandma and grandpa on my mom's side lived with us and then a lot of other people we had that too yeah so uh family is very important now to the brothers we are incredibly intensely competitive but you criticize one of us the three of us will kill you so i will tear our zeke and i will so i was at ari's house last night for he's got his birthday coming up and i had dinner with him and his uh wife sarah uh zeke happened to finish his book thing so i drove over to have so he wouldn't eat alone so a korean restaurant great one here but i went and had dinner with him so he you know now in both places i was told how stupid i was okay and i returned the favor by telling them how stupid they are okay but we're now we also ari zeke and i my three kids ari's four kids zeke's three kids zeke's three kids are married so they're spouses ashley one of ari's kids is also married everybody is on and as everybody's on a group chat oh wow and so like there's articles changed i've read this you know we like this zeke is married uh uh to a woman chisel who does the history at smithsonian on nasa and apollo projects so she has been giving family updates in the group chat on artemis yeah um and telling us you know like i don't know a couple days ago she was pre the last 24 hours that the re-entry was going to be the biggest challenge and saying why etc and so but you know i've sent this morning already two articles into the group and zeke will do that and some of the cousins will do that or somebody's referred you know so there's a group chat and then there's all the manual dynamics happen out on the group chat too all the kids tell the three brothers how stupid we are so a lot of feedback very close family a lot of interaction the kids are working on a self-improvement for the three of us that's funny yeah the it continues to the next generation no but well the kids the cousins are very close and the and um both the three siblings plus our spouse respective spouses are all close it takes a lot to get voted into the um family group chat but we're like the mob you can't get out but you can get it once you get in you're in why did both of you go to business school and nobody decided to go to humanities or law or something what was the drive behind business school i mean i've always been interested in business i wanted to found my own company okay that's actually why i went to business school um i had this whole problem with my business school i had this whole problem with my business school um i had this whole problem with my business school um i had this whole problem with my business school plan where I wanted to start my own company. I was like, okay, I'm going to go to HBS, but like not really pay attention in class. I'm going to really just, no, seriously. I was like, I'm just going to work in the, it's called the iLab, the Harvard Innovation Lab. So I was just working there all the time. And I was like, I'm going to graduate. I'm going to raise money while I'm at school. I'm going to graduate and then, you know, off to the races. So that was my whole plan. That was why I went to business school. I almost didn't go because I came from Silicon Valley and everyone was anti-business school. So everyone was telling me why you're going to waste your time in business school when you're already a product manager. You should just stay. You're going to like lose cachet in your career if you take two years off. So I was actually very anti-establishment by going to business school. How contrarian. And you? I saw Jean have a fabulous time at Harvard. And since I have a luxury of having an older sibling carve the path for me and pioneer the way, I said, why not do it on the opposite side of the country? But I guess the real answer is Jean had like such an amazing experience that it's something she'll look back on when she's 80 years old and be like two years, you know, going to classes, being a student again. I was pretty burnt out because I was coming right out of the pandemic. I hadn't met anyone new for the last like two or three years. And I felt very like flatlined in my career. I didn't feel like I was like learning as much. So both of you were working before business school, meaning undergrad. OK, that's very important. I had five years of experience. I'm big about that. Yes. Which I think is actually fundamental to Tiger Sisters podcast where we give career advice, corporate advice, how to behave in a professional environment. I'm 100% do not go from undergrad into grad. You need life and work experience to speak on. Well, also, you'll appreciate the education more than having not had that experience. So this last section is called the live improv debate. So we're going to help you do some impromptu presidential debate prep. We're going to give you a topic and see if you can speak on it on the spot. And we've heard that politicians can debate or defend any angle. So we're going to hit you with a few statements and would love for you to take a stance and be extremely convincing on it. Oh, OK. Not just half convincing. Extremely. Yes. Win us over. We'll see. All right. New York versus Chicago pizza. Which one actually deserves the crown? Chicago. Not even close. But if I go into a witness protection plan, I'll tell you the real one. OK. So I'm going to give you a topic and see if you can speak on it on the spot. And we've got one. Tokyo, Japan. Oh, they have. I love that. They figured it out. First of all, Chicago pizza is a meal. New York pizza is an appetizer. OK. What? Not Long Island pizza. But I'm going to tell you one thing. Why do I get so fired up? Because you've got your backup, etc. We're going to work on that for that blind date. We're going to talk before you go on it. OK. Number two. Tokyo has is there's a, I can't remember, something, Gallery 37, something 37, it's on the 37th floor at Taronovan Towers, was rated number two best pizza in the world. Now, they will go, the chef will go to Sicily, steady dough, tomato, the type of cheese, for years and years, until they think they perfect it, they'll never do it. I, you know, I said this, when Ari came in, I said, I'm gonna take you for pizza. He goes, what? I want sushi, I want the, I said, tempura. I said, Ari, we're from Chicago, we're going for pizza. And I'm telling you, it's so, I'm for Chicago v. New York, Chicago. Chicago versus the world, then you're making me pick between head, heart, and stomach. I mean, it was, the culinary experience of Japan, off the chart. Okay, so, Chicago. - Okay, this is, this is why he's a global statesman. I mean, not in quotes, but. - Wow, that was persuasive. - It was persuasive, but I just learned something in how you answered. I said, I gave you a binary, and you took it off the binary, and you gave a third answer. - Yeah, that's why he's a global statesman. - Okay, I'm gonna give you the. - That's why he's a politician. - I'm gonna give you the answer to life. Ready? - Okay. so henry kissinger quote does anybody have questions for my answers so number two let's see how i do come on let's go now i'm competitive go okay so this one isn't a this or that but this is just your take on airplane clapping is it acceptable civic gratitude or embarrassing behavior when the plane lands and people you know are clapping well given what trump has done to the faa i'm for clapping okay okay like if you're a 20 this sucker lands without either crashing on something or up there you're knocking into something i'm for clapping yeah okay so under trump's faa clap all you want man all right next one linked in post humblebrags are they networking strategy or a public diary that's embarrassing without knowing the person i would say uh they're networking but i don't believe that that's really what they're doing all of them so and the other way again getting back to our first question i actually think it's an attempt to create community a little self-centered but to be part of something uh that's bigger than yourself sheree's an incredible linkedin post writer she's the best out there well i worked at linkedin for five years before going to business school and it is definitely a place where people are creating community are creating their personal brand i i'm i'm a pro linkedin well i'm well i'm not so much pro linkedin but i do i'm pro the people in different ways i'm not negative it's just i think it's a little bit different i think it's a little bit different i think it's a little bit different but i think the bigger topic isn't linkedin getting back to our what is the end i think people are in desperate search for a community and for some connectivity that's not uh um is both unfiltered and authentic so go ahead voice notes is it an effective communication strategy or is it a hostage situation on your phone this episode is brought to you by google chrome you think you know a browser but jemma is the best way to communicate with you you think you know a browser but jemma is the best way to communicate with you you think you know a browser but jemma is the best way to communicate with you Gemini and Chrome? That's new. Check responses, setup required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. Hostage. Well, you know Gen Z does a ton of voice notes. I don't care. I'm just, you asked me. But do your kids leave you voice notes? No. Gen Z? No, no. They do not. They know you're not going to listen to it. Not to me, no. They will not do that to me. They will call. We'll talk. We're not a voice note family. Is that why you didn't respond to my voice note? I didn't get one from you, okay? When I get one from you, I know my first response. You'll ignore it. Yeah. He will ignore it. No, knowing my technical skills, I'll probably delete it before I'm able to hear it. So are you close to your mom? Yeah. It's the three of us ladies in our family. Oh, my God. Yes. So we're very tight-knit. No, you know, I, well, we didn't get there. So we'll just, I really am strong. You know, it's a topic. You know, you can sit here and say, okay, Indo-Pacific, or you can say education. The topic people least talk about is the, or one of the least talked about is family because people don't want to feel like they're judgmental. And I think, you know, when you think of everything that's important in nurturing a child, nurturing is a sense of a family. And you only got the examples that were set. And, you know, my dad used to always say, not that he practiced this, he was a pediatrician. He never met a child that was spoiled because they were told too many times a day they were loved. And I try to do that every day. My dad would call all three of us schmucks, but we never got to love, but his patients did. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing is I'm really big. And I bet you, you guys grew up like this about mealtimes. Having a family that we did, I mean, throughout our career, my career, which was obviously you're not in control of your own schedule. A lot of people are not, but we made time four nights a week for family dinner, but we don't talk about it because God forbid, you know, and there's a lot of single parents doing heroic efforts, heroic efforts. Your mom would be an example. Um, but the family and nurturing it, strengthening it, it's going to be the most important thing we can do as a society. And we don't want it. We don't talk about the most important thing. I mean, when this has been my philosophy, my whole life, it's got strengthened when I was mayor, that the three doors a child walks through that will determine their life are the front door of the home, front door of the school, and the front door of the place of worship. And if one of those doors are closed, it will change the trajectory of a child. But did you guys go up in a spiritually grounded family? We drove up to church. Church? Yes. Yeah. I think it's very, very important for the, um, we have one of the four meals was our Sabbath dinner every Friday night so that the kids understood who they were, what their moral teachings are and stuff. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to creating my own family and like, having all those traditions and I think it'll be fun. It'll be a new, a new part of life. Everything that you said you wouldn't do and you looked at your mother and said, I will never, you'll find yourself doing it. Oh, we're already doing things like that. I'm already doing that. I'm like, I am my mother. I am basically my mother. Is that true? Oh, yeah. I'm doing things like that. Who had a closer relationship to your mother between the two of you? My sister. She's the baby of the family. Yeah. So everyone loves the baby. I mean, except, you know, when you're the middle child, everyone loves the middle child. I used to say, to my, the joke in our house, I used to say to my mother, you love Ezekiel more than you love me. And she said, that's not true. I hate you all equally. That's a great answer. That's where you learned your politics from. Yeah. That's where. The other thing I used to always, you know, being the middle child, I wasn't the baby. I wasn't the eldest. She goes, that's true, but you're the bologna in the sandwich and everybody likes meat. Hmm. So she was a born diplomat, my mom. Yeah. I can see that. Thank you so much, Ram, for joining us on the Tiger Sisters podcast. For everyone who's watching this episode, where can they find your socials or more about you? We'll post that on there, but you can find it on our old social media site that I'm building also. Okay. Okay. Cool. We'll include more information in the description. I'll do it on my LinkedIn. Okay. Great. Thanks for coming. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thanks for watching!