The Real Purpose of the 12 Steps: Healing Patterns, Not Just Addiction

Hey everybody, welcome to the Addiction Unlimited podcast where you get to learn everything you want to know about addiction and recovery. I'm your host, Angela Pugh, co-founder of Kansas City Recovery, Life Coach and Recovery and Alcoholic. To learn more about me, you can listen to episode zero on your podcast app or find us on the web at AddictionUnlimited.com. Hello my friend, welcome back to Addiction Unlimited. Today marks the final episode in the Unlimited Life Starter series. Ten of the most powerful episodes from the archives to help you rebuild your rhythm, structure, and emotional piece. I created this series because I know how easy it is to feel a little off, to feel stuck in that gray area after quitting drinking. And I wanted you to have a foundation to build from, not just more sobriety, but more direction. And I saved this episode for last for a reason because this conversation goes deeper than sobriety. It's about transformation, healing the patterns underneath the behavior, whether that's alcohol, perfectionism, or people pleasing. Because what Ian and I talk about here goes beyond labels, beyond addiction, beyond stereotypes straight into the truth about healing. Whether you are a soccer mom with food issues or a high performer drowning in people pleasing, this is about the patterns we all carry and how the twelve steps can be a blueprint for change, not just for alcoholics, but for humans. If you've ever wondered, "Do I really belong here?" This episode will answer that. Let's get into it. Ian, thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation with me. This is going to be a good one. I'm totally stoked to be here with the Angela. Yeah, thank you. I'm excited because you are a fellow twelve step person. And I feel like in certainly in recent, you know, probably seven to ten years, there has been a little more pushback than normal against twelve steps. And it makes me really sad, but I love having another person that speaks that language and really understands and understands the beauty of that program. Yeah, I'm all in on the twelve steps as a program for living. And that's really based on my own personal experience, right? It's evidence based in my own life. It's self-authenticating, you might say. And so, yeah, I am a twelve step person. I'm totally in favor of supportive things, you know, like therapy and spiritual practice or whatever it may be. But, you know, at my core, I'm a twelve step guy. Yeah, I appreciate that you said that. I'm the same way. I kind of, I have an appreciation and a love for all the things. I want you to get help rather than not get help. So, whatever that looks like, whatever room you need to sit in, I am fully supportive of, I just want everybody to get help and feel better, right? That's the crux of it all. Exactly. I'm pretty pragmatic. And I'm eclectic, right? Like the twelve steps may be the heart of my program, but I have a lot of other things that I do to achieve emotional sobriety and spiritual wholeness, which I think is the game, you know? And so, I'm open-hearted to whatever it takes to get to where we want to go. Yeah, good. Me too. So let's just start with let everybody know a little bit about you and what you do. Yeah, so I have a kooky portfolio life and I love it. So, principally, I'm an author. I'm the author of five books. My most recent, as you know, is The Fix, How the Twelve Steps, Offer a Surprising Path of Transformation for the Well-Adjusted, The Down and Out, and Everyone in Between. I am a Anya Graham teacher. I have two books on the Anya Graham, which is a personality typing system for those who don't know it and a super helpful tool in achieving emotional sobriety, actually. I am a psychotherapist, a trained psychotherapist. I am a trained spiritual director. I am surprisingly enough also an episcopal priest. I don't actually have a church, you know, but I volunteer. So spirituality is a big part of my life. And a podcaster, I have a podcast called Typology, which is an Anya Graham podcast. I got to all to say, like, I got a lot of stuff that I do every week. I know I'm just laughing as you're going through that because it's just to me so typical alcoholic. I only know how to go too far, right? And I'm the same way. Like a million certifications and education and just everything. Everything fascinates me. I love to learn certainly on this journey of, you know, I feel like I've gotten to be two entirely different people in one lifetime. And I don't take that lightly. You know, so as a sober person, I just want to cherish and embrace every second that I've been gifted because it really is a gift, right? I definitely didn't earn it. Yeah, right. And I, a friend of mine said the other day, just describing his own tendency to overdo things, right? He said, I always have to play with the toy until I break it. Why do I always have to play with the toy until I break it? You know, I just have to give it to that. Yeah. Okay. So tell me about this book. I'm really fascinated to hear about your book, the current one. Yeah. So it's like I said, it's titled The Fix. And the premise of the book is that, you know, all human beings are on the addiction continuum really. I mean, you know, some of us take it to epic, you know, places. But everyone is looking for a fix for the fundamental disease that comes with just being a human being, you know? And those fixes can take the form of alcohol. They can take the form of drugs. They can take the form of food. They can take the form of workaholism, codependency, people pleasing, whatever, whatever we attach ourselves to self-sooth and to find comfort for the distress of being human. And I really feel like or I was thinking to myself, how could I introduce the 12 steps to a broader audience so that they might derive some of the same benefits I have from working a program? So my hope is, is that if you're sitting in treatment and you're just learning about the 12 steps, you could pick up the fix and it would be just one piece of the puzzle, right? You could be a soccer mom who really struggles with being over-controlling and or eating or whatever and you're sitting at the kitchen and you could read the fix and say, okay, I don't really identify as a stereotypical addict or alcoholic. But man, I think I need these steps. There are so many people that have so many compulsive behaviors and it doesn't have to fit in the addiction box, you know? Like I see perfectionism is huge, of course, codependency, people pleasing. These are things that you watch the whole world struggle with. Yes. I think to be human is to be addicted and to be addicted is the standard need of God's help, you know? As we understand God. And so, you know, I just, I just, you know, we hear all the time in meetings, people say, gosh, I wish everybody had a program. I mean, how many times have we heard people say that, right? Usually in frustration because someone else is acting out, right? But, but, you know, usually I think to myself, well, why not then? Why not introduce this to other people, which isn't to say it robs the program of anything? It actually is to say, wouldn't we want some of the benefits that we've experienced to be shared with others? And so, I mean, that's, that's my daily prayer, man, is just I sure hope that this will help more people than who know about the 12 steps. Yeah, right. I always felt that way about Alan on. You know, in my early, my first couple of years of sobriety, my sponsor had me go to Alan on. And what a magical experience. I feel like the entire world should go to Alan on. Yeah. And learn about boundaries and relationships and I would love to know for you, what is, I was going to say what is one, but that might be really challenging to narrow it down. What are some of the most valuable lessons you've learned in 12 steps? Not saying that 12 steps is the only place to learn the lessons, right? Because there's also nothing that 12 steps didn't reinvent the wheel either, right? Because there are a lot of spiritual concepts that come from a lot of different places that make up what we do in 12 steps. But we have our own lingo and language and things like that. And there are lessons I learned in those rooms that were absolutely life changing and not just happened to be where I was when I learned them. What were some of those for you? There are so many, I don't even know where to start. You know, like it's so related. Yeah. One was, I think I've learned the difference between Reformation and Transformation. So I think-- Yeah, so Reformation is when you try to bring about interior change using the un-aided will. So it's like, I'm going to use my will power to get rid of these character defects, and I'm going to use my-- And that's usually just the overinflated ego saying, "I'm in charge here." And of course, you can make some incremental changes maybe, but really it's pretty limited, right? Like, we've created this mess and it's hard to extricate ourselves from the mess, right? But transformation is when-- to use language of the rooms-- when we give our higher power consent to do for us what we could not do for ourselves. So for me, so much of the game of recovery, if I can call it, that is about surrender, relinquishment, copying to the idea that I'm out of ammo, right? And saying, you know, God, as I choose to call my higher power, you're going to have to do the line share of the work here. I mean, all I can do is cooperate. And that alone is a hard task, you know? So I think the distinction between reformation and transformation, which is I think the 12 steps point, right? It's having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, you know? I just sort of daily have to have serial spiritual awakenings. And what I've discovered is the more I give my higher power consent to do for me what I can't do for myself, then transformation begins to happen. Like things just begin to change naturally, organically on their own. And I just get to sit back and go, wow, yay, God. Was the higher power concept-- I mean, it sounds like you have some religious background as well-- was the higher power concept something that was easy for you when you started or did you have some struggle there? Both, Anne. So I discovered when I came into the program that I had to unlearn a lot of things that I had learned as a result of training, right? Like I just had to unlearn a lot of stuff. Some people come in and they have to learn from square one, which in some ways is a benefit, right? Yeah. But I had to actually do in two stages. I had to unlearn some things and I had to learn some things. So I had to rinse out some old things that just didn't work. And opened my heart to new ideas and new possibilities. In the book, I tell a story about walking on a beach in a card of state beach in California. And I was walking down the beach and I was just sort of praying and meditating. And I said to my higher power, I picked up a rock and I said, "Hire power, this is my old conception of who you are." And I'm going to have to throw it out. No offense, but I'm going to have to throw this out. And I just threw it out into the water, right? And I just picked up another rock and I said, "So we're going to begin again." Right? And I put that rock in my pocket and I held on to it for years. And so I do think that's part of the journey because clearly my old conception of God didn't work. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been in rehab. So we begin again. Yeah. And I ask because it's something that people question a lot, right? Like certainly in my online forums and groups and things like that. It's a question I get a lot is about the higher power stuff. And people struggling with that, you know? And there is a lot of us have our own trauma around spirituality and religion, right? It's hard to overcome and I think it keeps a lot of people out of the rooms when it shouldn't necessarily, right? But I get it because I had the same thoughts when it was time for me to get sober. I knew I was going to do 12 steps because it was the only thing available back then for one. Also for me, I am intrinsically a lazy human being. I need the easiest, fastest, like it's got to be right up the street from my house or I'm not going to go. So it had to be very simple and attainable. I knew I was committed, but I had to lower as many barriers to entry as possible, right? So at 12 steps was a thing. It's big. It's everywhere. There were meetings around my house. So I knew I was going to do that. But it was one of the questions that kept popping up in my head. It's like, "Uh, what about this religion piece?" And I just reminded myself that I'm a grown-up and nobody can force me to do anything. Nobody can force me to go anywhere I don't want to go. And it sounds so remedial, but I really had to have those conversations with myself. Like, "Angela, it's okay to walk in those rooms and not believe maybe what other people believe." Like, "It's okay. You're still welcome. You're still all right. You can still do the things. You can still get sober." But it definitely was a little bit of a stumbling block. I actually kind of believe that everybody has a higher power whether they know it or not. And they always have. I agree with that now. Yes, but it took me a lot of years to understand that. Yes. And as you know, a lot of times in the rooms people will say, "Well, listen, you've had a God-all-long. It was alcohol or it was Xanax or it was cocaine or whatever it was." And whatever is your ultimate concern in life, ultimate concern, actually will turn out to be your higher power. So if your ultimate concern is work, there's your higher power. If your ultimate concern is food, there's your higher power. It's in control. If your ultimate concern is winning the love and approval of other people, even if it means abandoning yourself to get it, well, there's your higher power, other people. So for me to sit with someone who's like, "I can't believe in God." I said, "Well, I don't know, dude. I think you've been believing in some God all along." So now we're just going to find the best expression of it. The true is expression of it because the old one hasn't worked for you. And it is. You're exactly right. It's like the things that you are making your choices around, that's your higher power, whatever that is. Oftentimes for people, it's people, other people, right? Whether it's romantic relationships or parents or children or whatever. If all my daily decisions, not all, but a significant amount, if all my daily decisions are made around, "Oh, but what about that? What about that person? What are they doing? What do they need? What time do I need to be there for that?" That's my higher power. Yes. And so what you're saying, and I love this because I've never thought of it this way, is that people don't know all human beings don't have just a higher power. They have multiples of higher powers, right? Because whatever it is at any given moment that you are organizing your lifetime or identity around. And that might be, I'm organizing my identity around being CEO of Goldman Sachs or I am going to organize my identity around my relationship with this person, etc. We just kind of ping around to multiples of different higher powers. And I think what the program does is say, "Listen, can we hone in on this a little bit? Can we actually find a higher power that is worthy of your allegiance and loyalty and love?" And who can ultimately, that actually dwarfs all these other kind of silly expressions of higher. Does that make sense? Yeah. What would you say to someone who's really struggling with this? Like how to understand or have faith in a higher power if you struggle with the concept of God? Yeah, well, I would probably give some of the common wisdom answers that we hear in the rooms. But one time I had a sponsor who was really struggling with a higher power. And it was actually kind of getting annoying. What it felt to me was just resistance. It moved from being a genuine concern to like, "Okay, this is just resistance." And I said, "Okay, do me a favor. Can you just write a personal ad for your higher power? Just write out a personal." So this is for people who don't remember what personal ads were. It was like, you go in the newspaper and say, "Single male looking for single female interested in sports or whatever." So you're bio on the dating app in terms of. Exactly. So in modern times. So I said, "I want you to write a personal ad for your higher power. I want you to describe for me what your higher power of choice would look like." So he was like, "Okay, I want a higher power that is really great at forgiveness, is open to. " And he just began to write this. And I said, "Okay, let's run with that." Let's just run with your description of that higher power as your higher power. And let's just see what happens. And over time, as he prayed to. meditated on, did the work, this higher power began to take shape on its own for them. For me, it was that honesty, openness, and willingness thing. It's like, let's just be open and willing to the possibility that what your heart desires actually exists. Because the human person, by the way, rarely hungers for something that doesn't exist. When your hungry food exists, when you want intimacy, sex exists. If your heart's desire begins to speak to you and you hunger for that object, namely higher power, guess what? I think it exists. I know it took me a long time to really get it, especially in reading the literature and turn your will over and remove my shortcomings. And there just were all these things that I really conceptually. I just didn't get how and connected to a higher power. Like, it really took me years. And it's frustrating too, I think, in the rooms. Like, I remember sitting in there for several months in my, in my beginning. And really feeling like, like, I just didn't know what the hell people were talking about, right? Because of the cliches. And when you don't understand them, it is challenging. You feel like there's an inside joke that you're left out of, right? Because somebody will say a one-liner in the whole room, he reps and laughter. And you're sitting there like, what the f just happened? Yeah. You know, so it is challenging to become a part of. And certainly I will say, you know, I was 10 months sober before I got a sponsor. And once I had my sponsor, of course, that was a game changer, right? That changed everything. Because then I had somebody having regular conversations with me, explaining the things, and just like higher power. But I was four years sober before my sponsor broke down the higher power concept to me in a way that it made absolute sense. Where I really got it and I had gone through a breakup. And my sponsor calls me, he's like, what are you doing tonight? I'm like, well, I was thinking about going here, but he might be there. And I could go over here and meet these friends, but he might be there. And my sponsor's like, oh, so he's become your higher power now. And I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? Absolutely not. He goes, well, you're deciding what you're doing in your life, who you're hanging out with, and what places you're going based on this person. That's your higher power. And that was the first time that it really clicked. And I was like, oh, now I understand why they say even the doorknob could be your higher power. But I sat there for years and people would say that stuff. And I was like, what does that mean? Like, I have no idea what that means. So it is hard to really get some of these things. And it does take time. And I say all of that to let everyone know it's okay. If you don't understand it perfectly, you don't have to understand it perfectly. There is no test. Like, it's all right to figure it out in your own time, but still show up and be a part of and be a part of the fellowship and take the pieces that are really beautiful. Yeah, oftentimes use the mantra with people who say, well, when is this going to happen? When is that going to happen? I always go, it's going to take a minute. You know, that's just, I say that with my therapy clients, with my coaching clients, with everybody's like, okay, just remember, it's going to take a minute. But that's why we do things one day at a time. Because over, when we take it one day at a time, one day we wake up and we find ourselves walking around a new and foreign country. We're like, oh, I got here, you know, and it's like, you know, before you know it, but it's still it's going to feel for a while like it's going to take a minute. Yeah, for sure. What have been some of your greatest challenges in sobriety and how have you gotten through them with your sobriety intact? Yeah. Well, I mean, there's been any number. I, you know, I'm sure a current one with you. I'm realizing now that I have faith, but I'm low on trust. And there's kind of a nuance difference between the two, as I think about it, right? Like, I have faith, right? But that's just giving intellectual ascent to the idea that there is a higher power, right? It's like, okay, that's just faith, right? I believe there is a God, right? Okay, well, big deal, right? That's anybody could do that. Trust is a whole different animal, right? Like, that's a, and when you have one without the other, it's, you know, it doesn't really work. And so, you know, I feel like I'm in a season of a second surrender of saying, you know, I don't just have faith, but I'm choosing to trust you with some things. And I have a number of things in my life that are going on that require trust. If I'm going to do them emotionally sober, not anxious, not freaking out, not being a control freak, not jumping in and taking the reins, not, you know, it's like, I just have to learn how to rest and trust. And I grew up in a really, I grew up in a tough home, you know, my dad was an alcoholic and a drug addict. He died at 63 from the disease and he never saw a day of sobriety. It was quite sad. And so you can imagine, trust is not my first language, you know? And so, I'm continually going to my higher power and saying, can you help me out with this trust thing? Can you give it to me as a gift? Because I can't manufacture or generate it. Like, like, if I could, I would. And so I spent some time on my knees just saying, I, you know, I give you permission to give me the gift of trust. Because it's, it's not my nature. Yeah, that's a tough one for sure. It's coming. I'm hopeful. Yeah. It's one of the fun parts of the journey, I think, when you're sober a long time is, there's just so much evolution, you know, and it feels like surrender just becomes a part of life, right? Because you're constantly learning. It's like in the beginning, it's just about not drinking. You know, and then it's recovery, which is growing up and getting some emotional sobriety and understanding all of that and changing your relationships and how you approach life and do things, right? It's really growing up for a long time. For most of us, that growing up piece takes a long time. And it happens so incrementally, it just takes a long time. And then this whole other world opens up where you start to see your character defects on a deeper level and like where they came from, how they got there, you know, and then you have a whole new set of things to deal with. Like, it is a really fun process and evolution once you get to a place that it feels empowering and not anxiety-ridden. Yes. And when it doesn't feel blaming, shaming, and lacking self-respect, right? Like, sure. Like when I spot character defects and I want to circle back to that term in a moment, I'm always like, well, of course, you're a huge, this is what humans do. Like, like, do not be too hard on yourself, you know, if you're struggling with envy, welcome to the human race. If you struggle with sloth, welcome to the human race. If you're, these are just part of the human conditions. So don't take it personally. And by the way, don't think you're the worst of all human beings because you have these character defects. Like, don't flatter yourself. There are far worse people than you. And I bet I love pointing that out too because I feel like people with addiction get really wrapped up in, oh my gosh, I have this thing and I have these problems. Like, everybody has the problems. Yes. Right. We just treated it with a substance or behavior to an unhealthy degree. Yes. Everybody has the problems. Everybody's dealing with the stuff. Everybody's looking for the fix. That's why the title of the book, right? So there's a double on Tondra, obviously, in the title, right? Like, we had a fix literally, whether it was, you know, the fix was, you know, heroin or, you know, cocaine or alcohol, whatever. But the real fix, you know, for me is the 12 steps, right? Like, let's say in spirituality. I sometimes with character defects, I think of them as two things, right? Yes, character defects. But sometimes I just refer to them as character defenses. Because most of the things that we do, most of our not so great behaviors, I've really just rooted in the fact that, oh, when I was a kid, this was a strategy that really worked for me. And it kept me safe. It got my needs met, you know, it, you know, it helped me make sense of a very frightening overwhelming world. But I've now dragged that character defense into my adulthood where it no longer serves me. And in fact, works against my best interests, right? So if, let's say, a character defect is, I talk badly about people behind their backs because it gives me a heightened sense of self-esteem and self-worth, right? Makes me feel superior. Well, maybe as a little kid, you felt, you know, a real like, you had a low self-esteem and you, this did work. It was a temporary fix. You drag that into adulthood. You're going to get fired. Right. Yeah. For being a political pariah inside of your company. You know, it's like, now it's no longer working. And it's also, you know, no long longer in alignment or consistent with your spiritual values, the way that you want to move through the world, right? Now, that's why they're also very hard to untangle because they've been with us for so long and we've placed our trust in them for so long that rinsing them out, like I say, is going to take a minute. And you have so much practice using them. It really is just second nature. Yeah, it's reflexive. Yeah. You don't, I think this is a big one to think about also. None of us are doing these things intentionally, right? I feel like people can get wrapped up in some guilt and shame like they're bad because they're people pleasing or they're bad because they could have been it's like, no, we don't do these things on purpose. Like I can look back on some of my really unhealthy toxic behaviors. I didn't know in the moment that I was engaging in unhealthy and toxic behaviors and I was just like, Oh, F it, I'm going to do it anyway. That came later, but, but I didn't know you're not doing it intentionally. It really is just your wiring and like you're saying it's stuff that is really installed in us as children, as coping mechanisms, defense mechanisms, and we carried into adulthood. Now what is our responsibility is to understand it better, recognize when behaviors aren't serving us and do the healing part. That is our responsibility. Yes. And I think there's an order in which that happens. So in the beginning, we said to ourselves, this is no longer serving me, stealing money from other people. I used to do that, let's say because I've wanted the cop drugs, right? And then, you know, you start to realize, Oh, in early sobriety, oh, that no longer serves my own interests, right? Like I just, I get in trouble. But then I think there's a transition where it's like, and that no longer serves the interests of others because we're here to be of service to our fellows, right? And then you realize, Oh, it's not only, you know, and I think that's a sign of spiritual and emotional growth. It's like it's no longer not just serving your interests, but it's not serving the interests of the world you want to help create. And I think that's a lovely transition. And I can, when I hear people in the program who are speaking in those kinds of terms, I've know they've been around for a minute. That it's no longer, they're so focused on their own lives, but they're actually now rippling out like, you know, into seeing it as being like, Oh, no, how am I, how am I being in the world? And is it actually contributing to this becoming a world of love and justice and kindness and goodness and all the things, you know, that we would hope it to be? Yeah, that's huge. I think when you can, when you start to recognize how your behaviors affect others and that becomes your motivation for change, yeah, that is definitely a level up. Yes. Yeah. For sure. Now, I do want to touch on your eniagram thing because we love all things personality. And, you know, quizzes and tests and types, we love all of those. I'm an eniagram eight. I love that the eniagram has been adapted to so many pieces and parts of life and really useful. Tell me a little bit about how you got into that. Yeah. So about seven years ago, I wrote a book called The Road Back To You. It's sold about a million 250,000 copies. So it's had some, you know, it's had a nice run over those years. But I don't just say that because I want people to be impressed, although I'm sure there's a little piece of me that did say it for that reason. But I say that because it is indicative or it demonstrates just how interested people are in understanding their inner world, you know. So the eniagram for those who don't know is this personality typing system. It teaches there are nine basic personality styles in the world, one of which we gravitate toward in adopting childhood. Just as a way to cope to feel safe and to protect ourselves and to navigate the world of relationships. Right. And each of those types has a core unconscious motivation that powerfully influences how that type habitually and predictably acts things and feels in the world. Right. And so for you is an eight for the challenger is called the core unconscious motivation is a need to assert strength and power over others in the environment in order to mask vulnerability and weakness. Right. And so you are large in charge human beings. You are typically very assertive, sometimes overly assertive. And once you, you know, we all know that like so on the journey is sobriety. Like I've taught this in rehabs. And now there's a number of treatment centers that use it as part of their intake, which I love. Because you learn so much about a person very, very quickly. And people learn some stuff about themselves very quickly when they know the eniagram. It's very handy with spawns ease. In part because you get a shared language, it reveals a lot of your character defects out of the gate, right? Like, like for an eight, like, okay, sometimes I'm controlling and I'm too big. Sometimes my guns go off too fast. Sometimes I speak before I think. Do you see what I'm going? Like it's like a really, in fact, in the book, I use the eniagram when I'm talking about step six and seven and just say, this is a good place to start when you're like working on character defects because there is a good long list of challenges that each type has and assets for that matter. Yeah. To be clear. So, you know, I love it as a tool. I, you know, there's a lot of people who get so into the eniagram, it becomes kind of a quasi-religion, you know, and I think that's a little ridiculous. But, you know, as a tool, I think it's super, super helpful. Yeah. You know, there's another one I love, the color code, the people code. It's really cool. Something that they say that I really appreciate is, you know, you have these certain traits. And you're sort of untreated, so to speak. But with some practice and development, right, sobriety, recovery, emotional sobriety, maturity, you have different traits when you're character. And I really appreciate kind of that differentiation because I can see, even in my eight stuff, like I can see so much more of that stuff when I was younger, when I was a less healthy human, where I don't have those traits so much at, it's still in there for sure and could come out at any moment if I'm not mindful. But once you're character, you can really polish the edges of some of those things. Yeah. Yeah. And what it does is it teaches you how to strengthen the inner observer. And, you know, I mean, Bill talks about this, right? The ability to stand back from your present moment experience and with a non-blaming gaze, observe yourself in real time, moment to moment and ask yourself the question, all right. So what's coming up right now? What am I doing? Why am I doing it? Ooh, look at this feeling coming up of what shall I do with this feeling? And so then you remove from reactive mind, which is by the way, addicts, untreated addicts, man, are so far into reactivity. It's ridiculous. And they are in the trance of reactivity in the trance, the levotera, the black calls at the trance of unworthiness, right? And they're just stuck there. But with good spiritual practices like meditation, step 11, you know, and things like that, we can develop receptive mind. So we move from a mind that's reactive to a mind that's receptive. And the inner observer is just kind of gently in the background, always watching. And then we're able to spot when a character, defense, or defect, whichever you want to call it, arises. And then we have a, then we have space in that space to make a choice. Do I want to, do I really want to rely on this old pattern? Or do I want to try something new, right? And because the journey of recovery, like, this is something slightly tangential, but not really. Like, this should be a joyful journey. Like I, like, you know, so often, and that's why the book actually, I'm going to actually has what I would call sort of, by typical northeastern Irish sense of humor, you know, it's like, like, I think the journey is serious. It's like life or death for some of us. And at the same time, like, it is so filled with joy and light. And yes, struggles part of it, you know, but it's also a journey towards something so beautiful and so good. And if we don't have some laughter and joy along the way, something's not right with, you know, like, like, we need to, like, that should be a sign that we need to, which is, and yeah, you know, there's so much laughter in the rooms. I mean, that should tell us something, right? So I hope the book will be one that people read and they go, wow, not only did I get some really practical good stuff out of this, but I smiled a lot as I read this book because there's a lot of stories and a lot of, you know, my sort of northeastern, snarky humor comes out a little bit. Yeah. Okay. Last question, favorite question. Great. What is your. favorite thing about being a sober person? - Hmm, I love that. - What is my favorite thing about being a sober person? Well, there's some obvious things. Well, one is, I'm really glad I'm alive. That's a good start. That's one of my favorite things about being sober is, I'm alive, and that's good. But when I say alive, I mean really alive. Like, I'm not just, you know, I think, I don't want to get too esoteric in my language, but like, awake, alive, here. I get to do this thing called life, and I don't have to do it in the trance of old patterns, where I'm just on autopilot, moving through the world, banging guard rail to guard rail, you know, making a mess of things. But to be attuned in alignment with my higher powers, desires for my life in the world and my role in it. So the idea of being purposeful, of being useful, of feeling like I'm in step with a spirit life, and that the journey of transformation, not reformation, is always available and filled with incredible surprises, if you're open to it. I could go on and on and on and on, but that's what I got right now. - Yeah, I feel the same way, absolutely. Ian, thank you again for coming on and doing this with me. Tell everybody again, one more time, the name of the book, and I will link it in the show notes so you guys can get it right from your podcast app. But tell everybody what the name of it is. - Sure, the name of the book is The Fix, how the 12 steps offer a surprising path of transformation for the well-adjusted, the down and out, and everyone in between. And if people want to learn more about my podcast, my other work with the NEA Graham, they can go to Ian Morgan Cron, ianmorgancrn.com, and learn about all the stuff that I do there. - And I will link all of that in the show notes. Thank you, Ian. - Thank you. - And that's a wrap. This is the kind of conversation I could have every day, real truth, real healing, and real tools that apply to every single one of us. Because we all have patterns we're working through, and the beauty of this journey is, you don't have to do it perfectly, but you do have to show up. And if you're listening to this in real time, this episode gets released on December 26th, which means dry January is right around the corner. If you've been thinking about making a change, if you're tired of the back and forth and starting over again, then let this be your moment. I know you're ready for something more, not just another day one, but a new way forward. Jump in the dry January boot camp with me. We do it every year. It's a ton of fun, and there's so much support in there. Addictionallimited.com/bootcamp and it's totally free. Addictionallimited.com/bootcamp. When you sign up, it takes 30 seconds. You'll get emails to guide you through every single step of the process. So read the effing emails. Thank you. And if you already know this isn't about just dry January for you, if you're ready for a real lifestyle shift, real guidance, real results, then it's time to book a call with me, addictionallimited.com/call. All of those links are in the show notes. This is high level coaching for people who are done half living, right? This is your time, no more circling, no more confusion, just direction and the support to follow through. So dry January or book a call with me, whatever is the next right move for you. Let's do it together. I love you guys. I hope you're having a fantastic day and I'll see you next week. - You've reached the end of another great episode of the Addictionallimited podcast, candid and honest conversation about addiction and recovery. Be sure to visit us at Addictionallimited.com to join the conversation and access show notes and links to everything we talked about. Love this episode. Please take 30 seconds to subscribe, rate, and review on iTunes to help us improve and give you the information you want. Thanks for listening. See you next week. (upbeat music)