The Race to Replace Graham Platner

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On today's show, Grand Planner's dispensest campaign against Susan Collins and now there's a very crowded, very chaotic race to succeed him. The war in Iran appears to be starting back up again. Even though Donald Trump was confused about the name of the country he's attacking, that's a real thing. Then, former North Carolina governor Roy Cooper talks to me about the campaign for Senate. Alex, thanks for being here today and replacing John. It's a pleasure, although, I mean, we all miss John whenever he's away. Crazy shit happens, Dan. It's true. He spends his vacations in the middle of online fiascos. Let's see if they're here or there. Okay. Let's start with the Platner news. Two long days after Politico broke the story that Platner had allegedly raped a former girlfriend. Platner posted in an 11-minute video on Wednesday evening, seeing he would file the formal paperwork to withdraw his name from the ballot. But also sharing a lot of other thoughts, too. Let's take a listen. I think as many of you know over the past couple days, I have faced some very serious allegations. And I just want to make it clear, this is all false. I think it's really important to understand why this is happening in the timeline. Why this is happening right now? I only have until July 13th until I am officially the nominee. This was the last week to try to get me off of the ballot. And that's why this is occurring. It's not the false allegations, though, that have brought us to where we are. It's the fact that they are being used by the political establishment to put structural pressure on us. What comes next needs to come from the people. I'm not trying to dictate to anyone who it should be or how we get there, but I will say this. It needs to be open, transparent, and democratic. As of this recording on Thursday afternoon planner has not actually filed the paperwork to have his name removed. The deadline is 5 p.m. Eastern time on Monday, but there is reporting that he will wait until the event to do it. Alex, what are your thoughts on his decision to drop out and the message in that video? As whole, as whole, as whole. Those are my thoughts. First of all, nobody needed to hear Graham Platner uncensored for 12 minutes. And the conceit in that video is preposterous that I guess I guess we're meant to believe that a rape victim is a crisis actor. And that crisis acting as being used by the democratic establishment to get Graham Platner out of the race. Never minding that Platner's exit from the race greatly complicates the race and potentially throws it further into jeopardy. And there's no mention we didn't we thankfully did not play the whole video, but he never mentions any of the women who came forward on the record talking about violence and aggression, if not outright assault and rape. He never mentions and pushes back on any of those things. He just says this is all part of a deep state plot. I mean, it's totally outrageous, but maybe the most egregious part of it, I think, is the fact that he suggests the system is hopelessly flawed and corrupted. And that machine politics would not abide an insurgent grassroots campaign. The mission of the establishment right now is to quash real reform and real accountability, which is you can have jaded views about the establishment. And I'm sure there's every reason for Graham Platner to have some of those and for some of his supporters too. But right now, if the goal really is to oust Susan Collins, Graham Platner needs to make people believe he does not need to further disillusion his supporters, he does not need to spin paranoid conspiracy theories. He does not need anybody in democratic politics and main to feel like this system is entirely rigged against them. He needs people to believe that there can be a good outcome. He needs to put whatever momentum he has left into the next candidate and he's done exactly the opposite. I mean, I just think it's completely unconscionable that this is the way this guy is exiting the race. My take on this is the subject line of your excellent newsletter, subject newsletter, how the hell, which is fuck Graham Platner. Like this, I agree with everything you said, what is so infuriating about this is if he truly cared about getting people health care, about stopping a genocide, about making the economic and political system more fair in this country. That none of those things can happen if we do not beat Susan Collins exactly. And by going down this path of conspiracy theories to just as you say to dissolution supporters, he is making that less likely. He's making it harder to accomplish things he did. This video is Trumpian in its nature. It is conspiracy theories. It's denial. It's making it entirely about himself. Throughout this video, he talks about how the movement they built and how whatever the process is that the main Democratic Party comes up, they must be true to that movement. Now, it is impressive for a first-time political candidate to beat the two-term governor of the state and beat the DSEC and Chuck Schumer and all that. That is an impressive thing. But just don't crawl so far up your own ass. You got 150,000 votes in Maine. This is not the Robert Kennedy 1968 campaign. This is not the Obama 2008 campaign. It is the smart thing for the party to do to have a process that brings in the people who support a Graham Platner. Because we obviously need them to win. But this whole thing that this was some magical messianic thing that he put together, he himself and only he put together and it must pay respect to what he did. It's just fucking ridiculous. It's counterproductive. Just go away. It's the best thing he can do for the things he claims he cares about. Of course he's waiting till Monday. It's like, first of all, time is of the essence. It's like paraphrasing the bear every second counts. And this asshole is waiting till Monday just cause. Give me a fucking break. Secondly, to what? Why? File the paperwork. Be done. We need to move. Everybody needs to move on. I say this in my newsletter and I genuinely believe it. Let Dan, we have a long history here. But let this be like the last conversation we have to have about Graham Platner because the focus needs to be on Susan Collins. And we're going to get Susan Collins after we finish their next 15 minutes talking. We are no one. No, I think because I will say, and I've said this before and I'm sure you agree with me on this. I'm sure. There needs to be at some point a real, I don't want to use proctology as the word, but like a real examination, a soul searching about the lessons learned here. We're going to do that today on this podcast in just a moment. Bless you. I'm getting ahead of myself. But let's before we get to that, because I do, I do want to have a conversation about how we got to this moment. And I want to talk a little bit about where you were right and I was wrong and why that was which we will get to I promise. But I want to talk a little bit first about what happens next. I previewed some of this on Polar Coast or my show for friends of the pod subscribers. If you aren't a subscriber yet, I really don't know what you're doing with your life. And maybe you should visit cricket.com/friends to change that. But any who I'm a believer provided that partner does formally drop out. The main Democratic party has until July 27th to replace them. They said they'll hold a convention to pick a new nominee. And we'll make all the details public soon, although there's been a lot of reporting on what it is and they claim that transparency will be of the utmost importance. What do you make of the convention idea? Is there a better one? There's no way not to make this process so messy. So, Messi. Yeah. Like, listen, I'm the last one to have a better idea, but I would like to see, I mean, there's been talk about town halls and debates. I mean, I think there has to be some, before these delegates make the call, if it is in fact the leadership of the state party that is gonna decide who the nominee is, one would hope there would be some concession to both, you know, those delegates and the public in the sort of, in the notion of choice by having a full or full-ish airing of their views. And that's obviously gonna have to be fairly abbreviated, but there needs to be some deference to, you know, helping educate the public and the delegates about who these people are. I've done a glancing search on the internet, but that's not sufficient. And they haven't had to talk about their positions in a full some way. So I think that, you know, I would love to see some kind of public format where they're, whether it's debate, town hall, whatever, that's moderated and that's a, you know, official feeling beyond just interviews with the press and podcast appearances. - Yes, and so the way that we think this is gonna happen is there would be this convention, and I think would sort of model what would be like a brokered convention at a national party convention in an election year. And there would be, I think it's upwards of 500 delegates, the 16, I believe, counties in Maine, county parties would elect delegates. - I think it's over 600 delegates. - 600 delegates from the 16 counties, and they will, so this is gonna be party insiders under all circumstances. And like, there's just no way for actual, you can't hold an election in this time period, so it's going to be this. This is probably, this is gonna be messy for sure. There's gonna be, you know, candidates are gonna try to, and we'll talk about who the candidates are in a second, but they're gonna try to influence who the delegates are in all these places. They're gonna put up slates. It's gonna be messy. Now, this is probably the best process if you wanna involve as many people as possible, and have the most transparency, 'cause the other alternative is the state party committee just votes. - Yeah. - And, you know, this is, you know, we're in a weird, bizarro version of 2024, where we're losing a nominee, very close to an election, about the same number of days actually. And instead of what happened in 2024, where just one candidate, all the mechanism comes in a nominee, we're gonna have a process of some kind, and these people are gonna compete, and maybe one of them will come and stand out, and hopefully, at the end of this process, we can come together. So there's no getting answers here, I guess, is my point. - But, you know what? I'm looking forward to the mess. I think everybody's hungry for some sense that there's a real choice, and there are real races, and this is not a foregone conclusion on the part of party elders, and it's not a feta-complete. And, Maine is pretty, I'm, like, from my podcast, from the away country, we interviewed one of the people, Dan Kleben, who's, I know we're gonna talk about this, one of the potential replacements for Platner, and there is so much frustration at the idea that Washington and Chuck Schumer, and outsiders, and elders, no better, and have involved themselves in this race, there's real desire to have some openness in all of this, come what may. - So, as for who might run, Tenshaw Candid has started testing the waters, even before Platner City was leaving the race. Here's a small sample of how they're pitching themselves. So, I'm the only candidate that's demonstrated that I can win statewide with conservative Republicans, and, you know, urban, young people, they're much more liberal. - Maine deserves a fighter in this seat, and I will be that fighter. I will fight for Medicare for all, because in the wealthiest country on Earth, nobody should ever go bankrupt over a medical bill. - I own a small business here in Maine. I created, built it from the ground up out of my garage, you know, employ over 100 mainers, pay a living wage, provide 100% of their health insurance coverage. I mean, I'm an outsider, I'm not an elected, I'm not a career politician, I've never held elected office. - That was former main senate president, Troy Jackson, the state's former top health official, Nira Abshah, and Brewery owner, Dinkley, but on your podcast, Alex, runaway country. - Indeed. - They've all said they will run, so if Secretary of State, Shenabellos, former Congressional candidate and political operative, Jordan Wood, former Platner staffer, and Congressional candidate, Paige Loud, for her senate candidate, David Castello, state rep, Valley Geiger, is considering running two, although she hasn't officially said so. It's a lot of people. Do you find anyone compelling in this crowd? What do you make of them? - I mean, I, listen, I talked to Dan Kleben, who's the bar owner, the Brewery owner. Nothing goes together like oysters and beer. And he was gonna run last, he has an interesting backstory, and so far as he was gonna run in last July, and was told not to by the DSCC, the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, which is of course under the ages of the purview of Chuck Schumer, and is an example of just how fucked this process has been since inception, right? And leader dropped out of the race and endorsed, he entered the race, but Platner had sort of won the hearts and minds of a lot of manners at that point. He subsequently endorsed the governor, Janet Mills, and then dropped out of the race. He's compelling as kind of a sort of surrogate for the every man working class manner that Platner represented even if some of his biography was a bit hazy around the edges, as far as his working class bonafidés. Troy Jackson sounds like his person that most, you know, he's gotten an endorsement from Rocana, who was a key endorsement for Grant Platner, at least from a national Democrat. He, I believe, is a fifth generation logger from Alligash, which is like, bless Maine and all their outdoorsiness. Brewers and Oysterman and Loggers, he's the former president of the Maine Senate. He has some experience. He's, you know, I think he has the progressive bonafidés that people are looking for. I gotta stop saying the word bonafidés. Narav Shah is a really interesting one. He was acting, I think, director of the CDC for a minute as well, which makes me a little worried, given that the CDC has become very politicized. And, you know, former CDC director and someone who is gonna be asked about COVID, it's just like I am not a COVID, a vaccine denier or a COVID skeptic, but it's extra baggage in these insane and tumultuous times. I don't know what do you think? I am all tapped out on having opinions on Maine Senate candidates. (laughing) The truth is, I don't know any of these people well enough to know who would be a candidate. Sad thing is, we're not really gonna know when it comes time to pick the person. This is a very abbreviated process. I hope there is someone in Democratic politics who was investing more than these $6,000 that the Yahoo's who recruited Graham Platner used to vet him and to do like full vets on all of these people so that everyone knows everything you possibly can know because whoever this person is gonna matter, massive scrutiny because if like one of the tests will be, like normally a Maine Senate candidate does something, not obviously what, Graham Platner has been accused of here, but had some bad online, you know, in a different world, a different race, if some bad online posts or something else, it'd be like a little speed bump. In this race with this level of scrutiny after what happened with Platner will be giant news. You gotta make sure whoever we pick can withstand that scrutiny. I guess that's sort of the main thing. - Yeah, two weeks, no big deal. Great time to do the vetting town halls convention, no problem, but thank God Graham Platner's waiting until Monday to drop out. - Yeah, yeah, so because we definitely couldn't use the next 72 hours or so. It's fitting you're here for this episode because as many of our listeners know, every time there's been big Graham Platner news or Maine news, it just been a coincidence to you and I have been on Mike together either on Potsaid America, on your podcasts, on YouTube. - At one point, Dan, we talked about doing just a Maine Senate podcast. - Potsaid Maine, yes, we will not be doing that now. - Potsaid the Maine, why? - If there's still a Senate race going on, okay, I'm just kidding, we don't need to do this only on Maine. - Yes. - But here's the important thing. - That's how in the foxhole we've been. - Yes, we've talked about Maine more than anything else over the last year here. (upbeat music) - This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. 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And it needs to be said, you've been a Platinum skeptic from the beginning. They're very beginning. Before anyone, before the Reddit post came out, before the tattoo, before the more recent stuff, you were a Platinum skeptic. And I will say here, the you were right, and I was wrong. I don't want to be right, man. I did know. This is not about me being right and you being wrong. It was I even right. I don't even know what that means. I just. Well, you were right to be skeptical of Grand Platinum. I was, yes, I was skeptical. Yes, I would you like to take a victory lap? I do not want to take a victory lap. This is not a good moment for, I mean, first of all, it's not a good moment for Grand Platinum. It's not a good moment for the women that he allegedly tormented and assaulted. It's not a good moment for the Democratic Party because I think we're at a real crossroads here in terms of how the Democratic Party manages candidate recruitment and what it means to answer. The toxic masculinity of MAGA, and it's not a good moment because the focus has been taken off of Susan Collins. And so it's hard to take a victory lap. I mean, I hope out of this, there's a little bit. The thing about Graham, I was not like some sage and like saw into the future or anything, but I was always just the bro glow was a little bit. I didn't get it. I didn't like the way I was never a Janet Mills supporter, but I didn't like. People summarily dismissed her and I felt like. I just summarily dismissed her. Yes, and that's not to say that she should be the nominee, but I feel like there was always like a latent misogyny around it. And I felt like, you know, in the retrospect, and maybe this is just hindsight's 2020 or whatever. But there are a lot of women in a lot of places who were like never really that on board and kind of felt a little bit sheepish thing. I don't know about that guy seems kind of like an asshole. I mean, I got into fights with Platinum supporters, you know, where the context of the conversation was, he has talent. He might be able to get the job done, but he seems like a dick. And there was a real. and like the dickishness may not just be a sort of side-effective ambition, but maybe like a more complicated and potentially serious character flaw. And as it turns out, I think that's what it was. This is someone who's completely self-absorbed to the point of maybe almost like a certain psychosis based on that exit video. And certainly has some demons he really needs to wrestle with. Yeah, you know, I. when I say similarly dismissed mills, let me say what my actual position was, because this is or how you and I first have this conversation was. I, Janet Mills gets in the race, the DSCC endorses her five minutes later, Chuck Schumer endorses her. And we know at the time that the DSCC has been trying to clear the fields for Janet Mills, telling people like Hannah Pingree and these other candidates in Maine to run for governor, not run for Senate, because Janet Mills is going to be the chosen candidate of the Democratic establishment. My view at the time was that I thought that was a big mistake for the DSCC. That if the DSCC is going to get involved in a primary, they better be 100% certain that they have the best candidate. And I didn't think you could look at what happened with Susan Collins in 2020, what happened in the country in 2024, in declare beyond a shadow of a doubt that a 79-year-old unpopular two-term governor was our best bet. I was a convinced Grim Platner was a better bet, but I thought the voters of Maine should pick it up. Now, I was intrigued by Platner for sure. I'm not going to pick that. I'm not going to dispute that. Like, I've been thinking a lot, because I was wrong here. I don't like being wrong. It happens a lot. But I really tried to think about like where, like where I aired in this. And there are a couple of places, and I'll say what those were. The first is, if I had a bias, or you can even say a blind spot in politics, it's for outside or candidates who did not grow up their entire life wanting to be in office. Yeah. Like, that's why I like Barack Obama over Hillary Clinton. That's why I would really loved better work when he was running for Senate and was intrigued by his potential as presidential candidate. It's why I supported Malay Mimuro in the Michigan Senate race this cycle. Like, that's what gets me most interested are candidates like that. I think they have the potential to be the best candidates, and they can make the best leaders. Because they're just like more, they've lived a normal life. They're more human. They talk more like a human, and they're less risk-averse. The people who spent their whole lives deciding what mistakes not to make to avoid being to avoid coming off their path to higher office generally are not the best leaders. Tick lives. Yes, and I think that makes you a better candidate. It absolutely does. Now, that will blow up in your face a bunch because those candidates are by definition higher risk. They have higher ceilings and lower floors. And so that's why I was intrigued by Platinum. I thought to beat Susan Collins, you needed a higher variance candidate, someone who could do something different than Sarah Gideon did, or all of the people who came before. And I was not convinced that Janet Mills could do that. And I do believe that that was actually the right call. Not that Platinum was the right person, obviously he was not, but that Janet Mills was the wrong candidate. And we see that now. That's born out and pulling that we have even now. And the second, the thing that I feel I'm mad at myself about is we went through this process. When I first had this conversation there, we knew nothing about Platinum. And then we saw the online posts. The things he said were horrible. And I thought there was a real chance that that could be disqualifying both in the primary and the general. To voters, right? But I did believe naively, apparently, the story he told about being a person who was dealing with PTSD, at dark time of their life in drinking, and did a bunch of things, and then changed their life improved. And I do believe that we should at leave space for people who make mistakes to still be in politics. Of course, I think redemption and empathy are like things we need to cultivate as a society beyond politics. And I believed that, and I believed, and I actually still believe this, the story he told about how he got the tattoo was true. Now, when I've come to, I do not believe that he knew it was Nazi tattoo, and I certainly don't believe he was a secret Nazi, for all the river in many things. Yeah, I'm with Tim Miller on this, though. I think he got it, then figured out what it was, and then kind of used it as a cocktail point. I think he lied about when he discovered that it was a Nazi tattoo, that I have come to believe. But I don't, this is a guy who was not shy about sharing his opinions online, so I feel like if he really was a Nazi, we would know that. Now, you could say that the Nazi tattoo, one thing he will say is, anyone who gets a Nazi tattoo for whatever reasons has bad judgment. And that may be, but a lot of people in their 20s, when they're only from war and drunk half bad judgment, and you have a Celtic band around your foreset, right? I have no tattoos. I have a bunch of back tattoos, the bunch of butterflies that I regret now. But not the shamrock on my ankle. I love that. They're not Nazi. Butterflies. Correct. No, I actually have no back tattoos. Oh, okay. I don't know. Not that girl, Dan. I don't have a toe ring. Any two. The other thing I regret, and this is where I really started to get very worried about Grant Platner was when the story came out in May about him sexting other women while married. And it's not that people can't make mistakes in their marriage and so run for office. That happens all the time. It was that that happened so recently that it really brought into question the redemption story that I had naively believed from him. Right. It's one thing to make mistakes. They're a different part of your life. And then this story he told was he made a bunch of mistakes. He changed his life. He started working. He got into politics. But that wasn't the story. That wasn't the reality. But even then is like his wife said they worked through with counseling. We all followed their fertility journey to get like it's just seemed like they had put it behind them. But it really made me wonder like what the next thing was. Right. And then he lied to everybody. But the thing when I look back on all of that is don't believe a liar is a really like that's not helpful advice because how do you you don't know someone's a liar until you find out later. What I think I should have paid more attention to was that back in March, you and I did a public experts react where we were looking at ads that were running in that race. This included the first negative ad that Janet Mills launched against Platner, which had a bunch of women reading like reacting to the things that Platner had posted. And the one that we're there, and you made this point to me. And it really was, has been in my head for the last few weeks here is like the What he said about minimizing rape and that sort of inherent massage and he Should have been a much bigger flag like that is a sign of something else Now that I like I wish I had I wish I'd paid more attention to that in this discussion Yeah, and that that was separate and apart from some of the other things that he said that were just stupid and offensive That was dangerous and offensive with that just for I'm gonna paraphrase it a little bit But that was the reddit pose where he said people should take some Responsibility not get so fucked up that they end up Having sex with someone they don't mean to which is deeply ironic considering the allegations against him Can I ask you something Dan and I genuinely don't Know what I think about this because we talk a lot about Schumer and obviously this was just a totally facocked a Situation where the DSEC's intervening to grade the detriment of the race But like Chuck Schumer's also picking candidates in a lot of other swing states And in putting the the heft of the DSEC behind people like Mary Peltola and Roy Cooper and Shared Brown and people who Are good candidates for those races and maybe they would have gotten there Regardless of Schumer's involvement, but like are we fo and I genuinely don't have an answer to this Are we focused on this because he just did such a colossally bad fucking job picking the candidate in this race? I what he did in Alaska North Carolina in Ohio was he recruit candidates who cleared the field themselves They were candidates so good so well known so you universally believed to be the best candidate that no one run against them So it wasn't like there are a bunch of other people running That Jenny Mills was not that candidate She was going to even want to run yeah, that's the other thing right and And also main to sustain with lots of Democrats Alaska. Yeah, there's only one the recruitment list for Alaska was Mary Peltola There was no one else, right? It was Peltola or bust Ohio It was Shared Brown and there was a long gap between one and two on that list North Carolina got a few more Democrats who could have run but were Cooper was far at the top Atlas so once you got those Was it it's where I? Didn't like what they did in Michigan back in Hilly Stevens There's a sexist element of all this as well that could end up not working out for a who knows yeah My general view is The dscz wherever else should recruit candidates They should if they think someone's the best church woman's gonna phone and try to convince them to do it They should do that when there was an active primary going on and then they put their thumb on the scale And they take that choice away from the voters now with when I first Wrote this and was first upset about it It's because the dscc back candidate always won the primary politics has changed so much in the last two years that that's actually become An albatross around people's necks as opposed to like this huge asset But at the time it was you're the dscz you could pick the candidate and take the essentially take the agency away from the voter Which is what they were trying to do in Maine that did not work in Maine And so you know, you know that it's like It's not that the dscz and Schumer were wrong in every instance. It's just they were wrong in this one Yeah, well and the dynamics of it are particular and um the outcome could have been meaningfully different if Chuck Schumer hadn't tried to clear the field and do what he did and and in fact I think in some ways elevate platinum and the course of all of that right he became a poster child for Defiance and grassroots activism and and you know saying fuck you to Politics as usual so at the same thing happened in Michigan where by putting the thumb on the skill for Haley Stevens He elevated Abdul and then one of the worst things that happened in malachemoro was a report I think in politica or somewhere else that said Schumer would be fine with either Haley or Mallory So all of a sudden Abdul got to go out and say all the time I'm the only candidate that Chuck Schumer opposes in this race And continues. I mean continue to do that. Yeah, so I guess today The thing I've been struggling with this conversation and this has been a I wouldn't say it's not been a fun time online for a podcast associated with Graham Platner um Speak for yourself. I'm just kidding. I mean as you should have you have your moment um But is I know it hasn't been fun. It hasn't been fun. I've tried to struggle with what Like the broader lesson is here Because it shouldn't be that outside our candidates are bad But Danny you're speaking so broadly like this guy You didn't have to know that he was a dick from the beginning, but once the reddit post started coming out Like right. I'm all for redemption But there were a lot of data points. Yeah, you know that that I mean that that is that is the that is that is the true But I think when I'm saying like for example, there was this Biden Aid who's on CNN today Who is saying basically taking Platner compared him to Abdul outside and saying like also unvetted same consultants And let's just observe because Abdul has run for governor And has been a like government official in Michigan for a while That's an absurd comparison But is this idea that people who are Outsideers or first-time candidates are risk inherently risky because they haven't been tested They've been vetted by the system right. That's right. I mean nobody should take a broad lesson about outsiders from the Platner Yes, because here were two other people who have had Huge sexual misconduct sexual assault problems who are the insider candidates of Eric Swallow and Andrew Cuomo Right, there's nothing there's nothing about being a creep that is exclusive to first-time candidates. It's also true I mean the other thing that you know the other As you as we think about this and like what it all means like one Story that people can tell and it's not an incorrect story Is that a bunch of podcast bros and democratic strategists and other dumb men online fell for The stick of this narcissist Right, and that it was true that Um, a lot of women a lot of women in my life that I regret not listening to like you and Sarah Longwell and other people who have raised these flags You know, and this was like dumb men and much more safer women and they're in the loudest voices I think criticizing plant Platner particularly nationally were women But then you look in Maine And Platner beat Mills was beating Mills by like 15 points among women A majority of that 150,000 votes was women and so I just you know, I was just reading Rebecca Tracer's is very insightful Peace and thoughtful peace about her support of Grand Platner Well Michelle Goldberg has one as well. Yep Can I say something? Well to your point about the podcast bros and other guys I think and I I feel like I always sound like um You know Brown University professor when I say this There's a real crisis right now in terms of how the left responds to magas dial masculinity And like what it means to be tough and a warrior But also progressive and a populist and like what is that special alchemy and like we got the the the left needs to build that person They need someone who can who can be the antidote to all the the just utterly toxic garbage male sort of um The masculinity that is being showcased on the right which is ultra retrograde misogynist and bad for the country said a steady sitting aside bad for women and like Platner was a unicorn in that way He felt like okay here's someone who's legitimately a progressive and he's a man's man and all this and that was I think intoxicating to a group of men in particular who are looking for that answer and It may be a latent desire. It may be an explicit desire, but I do think as a dude in the world who's a progressive It's a weird complicated time which doesn't mean we should overly focus on men. I get it But it is a problem. I mean I have two boys like there is a dearth of real kind of like um There's there's no playbook for how to be a guy in this moment and I think if you're in the world's politics and you're in media You're kind of trying to you're bouncing between archetypes and you're trying to figure out like okay What's the way to be what should we be supporting and championing and and Platner was very Attractive in that way and I I think that's part of the reason he took off at least in the online media space in a way that I mean no mills never was going to but even other guys in American politics Haven't I mean he was just incredibly compelling in that way I mean he was he was an excellent communicator if you listen to like his interviews like we did the New York Times podcast like he The interview he did with our friend Ben Rhodes about post-9/11 wars like he Like I mean he was interesting and thoughtful and obviously like how he looked and how he sounded You know affected that But it just was all bullshit is the problem. Right. Yeah. No, he's a pig Yeah, but that's but that's and that's what's so devastating is like oh what turns out actually like That that brand of machismo is totally corrupted which or or this His particular his this particular vehicle like there was something Platner was offering both in Maine and nationally That was compelling to a lot of people. Yeah, the problem was that that the person who was offering that was grand Platner Right, and so like how do you like it's Like we have to spend some time and we we're not going to do it here. We can't do it here over time Just figuring out like what was it? I don't want to overstate how important this was once against 150,000 fucking people in Maine This is not you know, he this is not right, but I mean this was someone who's his advisor said that you could run for president in 2020 It wasn't gonna end in Maine. Yes, but every I've been around a lot of Senate candidates consultant cell is every fine. Yes, fine I want them to, because it's very much in every consult is interest. Everyone wants to be David Axe or I, James Carval, Karl Rove. And so they're looking for those people all the time. It doesn't mean they actually would, but he was a financial phenomenon. He broke out. In a way that like, I mean, this is a bad example, but in a way that, you know, Stacy, this is a good example. Stacy Abrams did, even though she didn't win, a way that Beto broke out. And so it's like, yeah, there was something there and it's like, what was that? And how do you set, try to figure out what that is? It's separate from the very damage, very fucked up person. The pig, as you said, you do this. Okay. Enough of Grand Platinum. How much damage do you, like, how fucked are we in Maine after all this? Do we, like, what kind of shot do you think we have against Susan Collins now? I think, and I, I mean, I think my advice would be, say the word Susan Collins every time you want to say Grand Platinum over and over and over again, because she is weak, but she is going to be a challenge. You don't need to go to the numbers. We've talked about them a lot, but she overperforms, or she has in most elections she's been in recently. This is the first one she's going to have to face voters since Roe fell. So, and I think that that's legit in a state that's what 60% of the electorate is female. You know, hopefully people remember the fact that she built the Supreme Court that overturned Roe. She was the critical vote in the Kavanaugh confirmation and fancies herself a moderate, which is complete horse shit. I don't know, Dan. I mean, I think that the fact that I take it as a, as a positive sign in a way that main voters are so desperate or they're so fired up about getting Susan Collins out that they were willing to overlook the initial phase of Grand Platinum's very serious transgressions. I mean, that's, I guess, the silver lining, right? But, you know, the party's got to manage this process in a way that doesn't further disillusion democratic voters. Grand Platinum needs to shut the fuck up. And the focus really needs to return like a laser to Susan Collins. I think if we can, now this is me being less helpful. If we can pick the right person, and the right person might just be someone named generic Democrat with no tattoos. He doesn't know where, how to get to read it. We are in a better place than we would have been with either Grand Platinum pre, even let's say that this accusation never happened where a Grand Platinum would have been just, everything we knew up until two days ago, that we have potential for this new person to be stronger than that and stronger than Janet Mills would have been. 'Cause even be like in that during time, Santa Paul from two weeks ago, after all this sexting stuff and all this came out, Grand Platinum was still more popular than Janet Mills. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And so we have a chance here. Now, this is a state where using the same New York Times poll, Democrats leave the generic ballot by 11 points. They want the Senate to be in Democratic hands by 11 points, I believe, 11 or 12 points. So there is, and this is say this more Democratic than 2020. A lot of people who profile as Democratic voters move to may, particularly to the Portland area, starting around COVID. So it's been, it's actually a state that is grown from in migration. So we should still be able to win the race. It's gonna be really fucking hard. Collins is gonna have so much money. She's had to spend almost none of it. There's gonna be a gazillion dollars. - Big war chest. - Big war chest. - And pack money. But I do think there's a chance we can make this. All, like every, this is what I was saying. This is my unsolicited advice to the Platinum people two weeks ago, which was like all this Epstein Island, you know, reordering politics, populism stuff is like, all that matters is that Susan Collins, no matter what else you feel about her, a vote for her is a vote to let Donald Trump control the Senate and pick Supreme Court Justice. That's it. It doesn't matter how you feel about her. It doesn't matter if you liked her personally. It doesn't matter if she got money for the iron bath works or whatever else. She is a vote for her is a vote. To let Donald Trump pick two more Supreme Court Justice. Full stop. Just like that's what that's what people care about. That's what it's about. Don't let me know anything else. Don't ever come again. The fuck is simple. So I think we can still win this. It'll be totally great. And I had interviewed Adam Gentles and former deputy chief of staff to Harry Reid and chief of staff to John Fetterman in the podcast. And he he is aligned with you that this makes the, the Democrats chances are better now than they were a week ago when Platinum was still in the race before the political reporting. So there's that. - There's that. - That was like a therapy session, Dan. I've had a lot to say for a few days here. So I'm glad we've had a lot to say. - I feel very honored that you wanted to share those things with me. - I'm actually, if John was not on vacation, I would have suggested that we swap it not for you. I feel better doing this with you. - Well, thanks. I mean, we've gone on a long road together. - We've been on a long, - It's been a long strange day. - Yeah, we have. (upbeat music) - Pottape America is brought to you by Bill. We can all agree that housing is expensive. Rent mortgage, it doesn't matter which one you're paying. It stings every month, but Bill can make it feel a little better. Let's explain. Bill started out rewarding members on their rent. As of 2026, Bill members can also earn points on mortgage payments to every housing payment. Earns you points so you can use with top travel partners like United and Hyatt or use your points to live rides, Amazon purchases, and so much more. You could take a business class. You can get a gift card at 120 brands, but here's the most underrated part. Bill members also get access to a neighborhood concierge. It can make restaurant reservations, book fitness classes, and find new local spots all while being rewarded at more than 45,000 merchant partners. 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Enter the code "cricket" before check out to get 50% off your first order. That's 50% off your first order by using the code "cricket" or going to cookunity.com/cricket. (upbeat music) All right, now let's turn to a new story of interest. It's just slightly more people than the main Senate race, the War with Iran. Which seems to be close to restarting any minute now. Ships transiting the straight up removes started coming under fire again earlier this week. On Tuesday, the US military responded by hitting targets in Iran in reimposing sanctions on Iranian oil. Iran responded to that with shots at American installations in the least. We responded to that with more strikes and so on and so on. It's all a giant mess and getting worse by the hour. The good news is that Donald Trump seems to have a very good handle on all of this. Here he is at this week's NATO Summit in Turkey. - Is the ceasefire over? - Is the ceasefire done? Is the MOU dead? - It's a very interesting question. To me, I think it's over. I don't wanna deal with him anymore, this has come. We had 111 missile shots by the Islamic Republic of Japan. - The Islamic Republic of Japan. - That's a headline story. I didn't even know Japan had. - Not only has it become Islamic. They're also at War with the United States right now. - So much happened while I was with the government planner. - Me deep in main politics, we missed a lot of stuff around the world. So I'm sure Tommy had been covered this. - Yeah, well thank God, thank God we have them on the watch. - Yes. Thanks for going well in Middle East, huh? - Totally, the line out of the White House is, this is according to Axios, I think today. We're gonna slap Iran around a bit so they understand we're not fucking around. That's the strategy here. They are saying that this next stage of war could be weeks, could be months. But the essence of this stand is that Iran is not happy about the way things are going, the Strait of Hormuz, and they want to reclaim control of it. And that is an unresolved dispute that is going to continue to fuck the global economy and could make it life incredibly painful for Republicans heading into the midterms. And so, I mean, the idea that anything was resolved by a page and a half, DocuSign, however many weeks ago that was, is a joke, as is this administration's foreign policy. I am not surprised that we are here. I also am unclear as to how any of this resolves itself given the utterly, we are at loggerheads with the Iranians over the strait. They want ships to pass through on their side of the strait and register with the wait for it. Hormuz Transit Authority. Can someone get me an HTA hat? And instead the US is like, because that's how they're going to, that's how they're going to attack people or toll people or companies as they go through the strait. And the US is like, you know, go the southern route. Don't register with the HTA. Use the, the, the side of the, of the strait where Oman rules the water, if you will. That's not going over well with the Iranians. And now we're back at war because the fundamental issue at the heart of this is nowhere close to being resolved. The Wall Street Journal had a story that said that this is all basically happening because section five of the of the ceasefire agreement that I would say Trump signed it Versailles is poorly written and has led to a lot of confusion about what a rating control the strait actually means. They never really worked it out because it was a page and a half because it's a joke because there was no diplomatic process. And it's just that they wanted, they wanted to get gas prices down. Yeah, they wanted to say the strait was open so that the market would improve and oral prices would start to go down, even if the strait was not actually open. It's insane. Now gas prices have ticked up a little bit. They're not where they used to be. But, you know, when you are so ambiguous about how, what the goal is, how this could possibly resolve itself, the diplomatic process seems. I don't know. He says they're cuckoo. I'm done dealing with them. They're sickos. Like, I mean, the half of that is bluster or three quarters of it is bluster. But I, I not, I've never been that confident and Jared Kushner and Steve Whitcough negotiating this process, though they are a cracker jack team of diplomats. And like, what, what confidence should we have that this doesn't stretch on off and on, not being called a war forever? The only thing standing in Trump's way, I guess, is the appropriations process. And the fact that he's asking Congress for another $350 billion in Republicans may not be super stoked on doing that four months before the midterms. Yeah, it, it goes to my, the point I, I like to make about this, which is anyone dumb enough to start this war is too dumb to get out of it, which is sort of where we are. As you pointed out, oil prices and gas prices have gone up a little bit through this. The stock market's gone down. Ships are still passing through the straight, although it's still well below pre-war levels. One third, one third of pre-war levels. But the administration is finally taking at least one step to help with gas prices. Let's take a look. We're here at the first freedom fuel network gas station, right here in Philadelphia leading the charge to lower gas prices. $3.47. That's for our 47th president, President Donald J. Trump. When I saw it, I thought it was a fake news, but it's true. Thanks a lot, Trump. Just keep going with your dog. That was a good job. Thank you, President Trump. Thank you for helping our country. It's President Donald J. Trump leading the charge to lower gas prices, right here at Freedom Fuel and Network Gas Station. You heard that right. The administration's big move is a network of so-called freedom fuel stations that are mostly in the larger Philadelphia area. They are seven gas at $3.47. A gallon, $0.47. Get it? Alex, I believe you have some thoughts on this initiative, and I'm going to clear out, unless you have them. First of all, nobody knows who's behind these gas stations. They just popped up around the Philly area. They used to be like Sonoco stations or Texaco stations. There's just like giant stickers on them. Nobody knows how they're pricing gas at $3.47 because news flash. The reason gas prices are high is not because gas owners are stubborn and just need to be convinced. Get on the bandwagon of cheap gas. It's because they have to be because market is at where it's at. Now, there's some discretion they have in terms of sense and on the margins, but when gas is over $4 a gallon, it's not because they've gotten greedy. It's because that's where the market is. That's where the price of crude. This is all smoking mirrors. This is like a gas station, Potemkin village. I sort of delight in it because it is further proof that Donald Trump is a socialist. These gas stations or gas station owners are clearly getting some kind of government subsidy to lower gas to $3.47. It is meaning fully lower than other area gas stations. It fits in the suite of decisions Donald Trump has made to have the heavy hand of government get involved in private enterprise, whether that's extorting Nvidia and Intel for stock that the government controls in order to get licenses or in order to establish trading overseas, whether that's the tariffs, whether that's the heavy hand of the Trump administration involved in the media and censorship. This is all the behavior of, I don't know, like someone like Maduro or Potem or take your pick. This is not what free market capitalism is supposed to look like. It is socialism, sometimes communism, maybe outright fascism and authoritarianism under the guy as, you know, when it is politically convenient. What a joke. It's also stupid. What possible world is this going to make a difference by having like a handful of gas stations in the Philadelphia area sell gas for a short period of time for a slightly cheaper than other parts of the, like it is they are spitting in the ocean. Yeah. There are like tens of thousands of gas stations across the country. Like there is, like there is a saying when you work in the White House, it's like you want to get caught trying. Like there are problems you can't solve. They're too big. Congress won't work, but you won't be able to see your trying. No one's, this isn't qualified to try and they sent this video out saying they're doing this. And then in 99% of the rest of the country, people who see the video are then going to drive to the gas station and gas is going to be the same high price it was before. So you've just angered them because somehow then where you are not valuable enough to get one of these freedom fuel stations, you still have to pay the normal price. It's just so stupid. It's all dumb. It's all dumb. I think it's honestly for Trump. Do you know what I mean? I think it's just a video that they can play for him when the baby gets angry. It's like one of those soothing, like it's one of those, you know, there are these little gummy toys. You can give babies. They can chew on when they're teething and they get angry. This is the, the, the sort of video version of that. This is, you know, this is, this is Coco Mellon for Fascist Idiots. That's exactly what it is. Okay. All right. One more consequence of the Iran situation we wanted to mention. Trump flew his new Katari gifts at Air Force 1 to Turkey. But when it was time to leave, he announced that he was sending the jet on to an air base in England to give American station their chance to tour the aircraft and that quote for old time's sake, he'd be following in the old plane. He was of course lying. The New York Times reported that the secret service urged him to take the old plane because it was more secure and the new version doesn't have the same defensive capabilities. Alex, I thought the new Air Force 1, which we paid hundreds of millions of dollars, we the taxpayers paid hundreds of million dollars to rush into service was totally safe and perfect. Are you shocked by this? Shocked, Dan. I did not realize that when Trump, first of all, there, he's, has two jets in rotation and I believe they're two more under construction right now. So it's not like the, the entrance of this free Katari jet did anything to help the American taxpayer or saved us any money. I direct you to John Love and Tommy V. Tours, excellent YouTube conversation on this very topic, which I found quite enlightening that clearly the jet is not up to snuff. Maybe they spent all the money on like warm nuts that are served right before, right after takeoff or lifelad seeds or, you know, really fancy inflate amenities like face mist. I don't know, but it wasn't on securing the jet the way it needs to be because clearly they believe that there was some kind of national security threat flying out of Turkey. They asked people on Air Force 1 to lower their blinds, which I guess according to Tommy is what you do in a war zone and that the Katari jet did not have significant missile defense systems on it to keep everybody safe. So they had to fly the old baby blue Air Force 1 out of the threat zone. That's a problem. You don't want to have to have two jets in rotation because one isn't actually up to, isn't, isn't secure enough. Generally speaking, you want the president to be on the safe jet all the time. Because like, there's another version of this, right, which is the real Air Force 1 exists the way it does. It's built the way it's built in the event because this idea came during the Cold War, which is there is a nuclear war or some other war and the president has to stay in the air for hours and hours and hours to be able to fly anywhere in the world to get the safety and be able to command the US military forces from there. And so you can't like, at any point, he could be on the new jet and theoretically something can happen in the world that could put him at risk. You're on the new jet. It's not just like, it's not a commuter shuttle. No, it's just, it's like once again, and this whole thing is so dumb because the jet, he doesn't care about that because that it's not that often that the president is actually targeted like this obviously or that he is in within ballistic missile range of Iran. But because he takes the jet with him, he leaves. That's the thing. The jet does not go to president. Josh Shapiro, AOC, Kamal Harris, whoever else comes next, it goes to Donald Trump to fly around on as he visits golf clubs around the world. Fantastic. Trump Force 1. Trump Force 1. What a disaster, but what else? I mean, everything. Trump touches turns to shit, so here we are. - That's right. When we come back, North Carolina Senate candidate, former governor, Roy Cooper. (upbeat music) - Pots of America is brought to you by article. Article makes it effortless to build a home that lasts without the boutique markup. They're curated collections of mid-century coastal and scandy furniture are designed to mix and match perfectly so you can create a cohesive designer look that will stand the test of time. Article stuff, it looks great. Some of it's simple and modern, so it'll fit with a lot of different design styles but it just looks really good. Article offers fast, affordable shipping across the US and Canada with options for professional assembly. 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Votefromabroad.org. - I'm Nate Silver. - I'm Galen Drook. - And I'm Claire Malone. - We're back, this time with our friends at Crooked Media for a new show called Still Counting. - Yeah, numbers are hard, take so easy. And frankly, numbers have only gotten harder. - What does the data actually say? How do we reconcile that with the other things that we're seeing in American politics and around the world? And how do we use that data to understand or maybe even dare to predict the future of American politics? - New episodes every Wednesday, starting September 9th. Subscribe to Still Counting on youtube.com/atstillcountingpodcast or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) Joining me now is a Democratic nominee for one of the most important Senate races. This cycle, former North Carolina Governor Work Cooper. Governor Cooper, welcome back to Potsdam America. - I'm glad to be with you, Dan, thanks a lot. - It's been a while, so it's great to have you on here. North Carolina, a state near and dear to my heart, has been breaking Democratic hearts for a long time. It's been since 2008. This is a Democrat won a Senate seat there. Talk to me about why you believe 2026 is going to be different than all the other cycles that have emotionally traumatized so many Democrats around the country and in North Carolina, I assume. - Well, Dan, I've been having to convince people that we are having a tough race because people ask me what my biggest fear is and that a lot of people have put this race in the check mark win column. And you and I know the history of North Carolina just because I have a lead in the polls, doesn't mean this race isn't going to be very close. We've seen so many Democratic candidates have a lead, have a lead, have a lead until they don't. And we see Republican money pouring into this state at the end and we see great Democratic candidates lose by a couple of points. And as you know, it's been 2008 since we want to see almost 40 years, we've only had two Democrats and both of them served one term. So this is going to be a close race. I think this is different because people are hurting now. I don't think I've seen it like this 'cause I've been out on my mixed up cost less tour. People are telling me that there's just too much month if they end of the money for them. Their paychecks just are not keeping up with the cost of living and they are frustrated. And they recognized that Washington DC is in chaos that this president and administration promised them that day one they cost a living would be on top of a list. And not only has it not been, they've actively hurt people's chances in that we've seen these chaotic tariffs at cost to everything. We've seen this war in Iran increase costs. We've seen this one big beautiful bill that ripped healthcare away from people and given the tax breaks to the billionaires. People are frustrated. And at the end of the day, I think they know that I will be a senator who will put the people first, not the billionaires. And we know that my opponent, Michael Watley, will do and say whatever this president tells him to do and say. And we know at the end of the day that a lot of money's gonna come into North Carolina. But we're gonna win this race because we have to, I have to tell my children the other day that my parents left me a better country. But that we had worked to do to leave them a better country. And I think all of us need to look within us and say, hey, what can I do to make sure that this country is the kind of country we wanna leave to our kids and great kids. And that's why I'm running for the Senate. - You point out affordability is the number one issue in North Carolina. It's the number one issue all around the country. It's frankly the number one issue in our politics for basically since COVID, as inflation went up. As you mentioned, you're on this tour of North Carolina. Tell me a little about the tour. And can you give me a handful of specific ideas that you would do to help lower people's prices if elected? - Well, the tour, I've been meeting people across North Carolina. We call it the Make Stuff Cost Less Tour. - Very clear. - Very clear. - Yes. - Yeah, I mean, we hear from Kauanna who's struggling to pay for groceries. She's a teacher. We hear from Meredith, whose kid, Vivi's on Medicaid and Meredith's scared death that Washington is going to attack and take away Vivi's healthcare. And we're going to have offenders of farmer and rural North Carolina, the tariffs are killing him. So in my policy proposals, you can go to Roy Cooper.com and read our proposals on what we're proposing to do to make stuff cost less. You can also help us out. You can also volunteer. We need people to help us in this campaign. But first, we've got to work with Republicans. And I believe there will be some who will be ready to work with us on taking back the legislative branch's constitutional authority here. The checks and balances are critical. So taking them back on trade and tariffs. We got to roll back these chaotic tariffs. And I think immediately that helps to reduce the cost of living. We've got to restore the healthcare cuts that have really wreaked havoc on people's pocketbooks and people's lives, their health. We've got to make sure that we are investing in education across the board. I believe that when you look at all of the proposals that we have made like a childcare tax credit, 'cause I'm hearing from people about childcare going through the roof and they're having to make hard decisions about whether one parent's gonna work. We just need a Washington focused on people and not tax breaks for the corporations. And I think that we can make a difference. The government that works can make a difference for people and help them have a paycheck that keeps up with the cost of living. There's been a lot of talk about groceries and gas. Of course, gas because of the Iran War, but it is utility prices. And one of the things driving up utility prices is data centers. What would you do with data centers to either help lower the cost of electricity, slow the build, the build of these? How are you thinking about this sort of mad rush to build as many data centers as possible? It's part of my policy proposals is that they must pay for their own energy. Other consumers should not have to bear any cost from data centers. And we should encourage them to create their own energy sources and connect them to the grid. And I think many of them are ready to step up and do that. Of course, communities have to have input as to whether these are built there or not. But I think that is critical because we now have a demand for power unlike anything we've ever seen. And we have a Congress and a president in Washington that has wiped away the gains that we made in clean energy that would have helped add energy to the grid. That's all been wiped away during the last couple of years. So we have a real challenge on our hands. So I think they have to make sure that they pay for their own. Your opponent, Michael Watley, is not particularly well known to a lot of people around the country. He's not sort of one of these mega bad guys, like a Ken Paxton or a Herschel Walker or Dr. Oz in previous selections. I understand there's some debate about his North Carolina roots and that he failed to be able to name any members of your NHL Stanley Cup championship team down there. But what should voters either in North Carolina or around the country want to help your campaign know about Michael Watley and who he is and what he would do? Well, first, he's been a Washington DC insider for years. He was a big oil and utility company lobbyist. He worked to be able to raise prices for oil companies and raise utility rates for utility companies. He's still own stock in those. And he served as chair of the Republican National Committee, his coach here, push there. by President Trump, and we're seeing that he's able to line his own pockets by advocating and encouraging the Iran war, pushing this one big, beautiful bill. He owns pharma company stocks, and we know that those have gone up because of this one big, beautiful bill. He was also chair of the North Carolina Republican Party and recruited right-wing candidates, like Mark Robinson, who's the self-described black Nazi in North Carolina, and stood beside and behind Mark Robinson. He has lied about my record. You mentioned that he's been telling people that he grew up in blowing rock north Carolina. In actuality, he moved to blowing rock from Michigan when he was 15 years old. I don't mind people coming into North Carolina, or you don't have to have grown up North Carolina. People are full North Carolinians when they move here, but just don't lie about it. He's lied about my record, and particularly on crime, but then you look at his record on crime. He appointed a convicted child sex predator who served time in prison to a prominent position in the North Carolina Republican Party and stood by him and reappointed him, even though the party debated this, and recently the party has come in and passed a resolution saying, "We aren't going to have sex predators appointed to positions of prominence anymore." He's also very recently stood by Trump's pardon of all of these J6 insurrectionists, including those who assaulted police officers, and including those who went on to commit other crimes, some against children for child sex crimes. That's the kind of record that Michael Whiteley has, and as I say, he will do and say whatever this president tells him to do and say, "On the other hand, I will be a strong, independent senator for North Carolina. I will put the people first." I will try to work with this president when I can. I did my first four years as governor. He was president at the same time. I tried to work with him. We had to go through COVID and other things, but I will stand up to him when I need to, and there needs to be a lot of standing up to him right now in Washington. I think the people of North Carolina are going to want that at the end of the day. You mentioned the attacks on your record on crime. This is in a bunch of their ads. They are specifically focusing on some early releases that you granted in your time as governor. What is your response to those attacks? What's the true story here? Well, first, those stories, there are many lies being told in what they've done, and they've had fact checks that have shown that they just simply are not telling the truth. I'm the only person in this race who's actually prosecuted violent criminals and worked to keep them behind bars while Michael Watley has appointed a child sex predator to a prominent position in the North Carolina Republican Party. That's the difference between us on crime. People know my record as Attorney General. They know that as governor, I signed tougher bail laws. They know, too, that I believe in working to prevent crime by investing in early childhood education and in our public schools and in healthcare and in our communities. I think that's critical, but they believe this is a soft bot. It is not, and I think the people of North Carolina will hear that at the end of the day. Immigration is in crime, we're sort of tied together in Republican rhetoric these days. One of the tasks for a Democratic Senate will be, or just a new Democratic Senate, or is going to be trying to find ways to reign in what is happening with ICE and what the Trump administration is doing with ICE. We just had another person killed by ICE recently. How are you thinking about what you, if you were elected Senate, what you would do with ICE? How would you reform it? Restrain it? What are you thinking? Well, first, we need secure borders in this country, and we should deport violent criminals, and this organization should be working to try and do that. But we also don't need what is happening now with people being picked up just because of what they look like, often American citizens being put in danger, shot on the street. It seems to me reasonable that officers who work with ICE should have the same requirements that state, local and federal law enforcement officers should have. And I think that that is something that we need to do. Make sure that they have those same requirements. As we mentioned, you're upon it to the former Chair of the RNC. A couple of weeks ago, the Supreme Court had a ruling which now will allow the party committees like the RNC and the DNC to spend unlimited funds on behalf, on races like yours. How does that ruling affect your race with your opponent being the former Chair of the organization that can now spend unlimited money? This is the worst campaign finance Supreme Court decision since Citizens United. It allows virtually unlimited spending from these joint committees when a candidate and a political party or like the Republican senatorial campaign committee come together. They don't have any limits as they used to have. This puts more power in the hands of the very wealthy, of the billionaires, of the corporations. And I think you're going to see a significant amount of money flowing into races all across the country using this new device. It may affect our race even more than others. Being that Wattley has been recently the Chair of the Republican National Committee. He knows all the people there. He certainly has been talking about the fact that they're going to use this new tool. We all need to come together and get a grip on campaign finance in this country. We have to find a way to stop this madness. There's too much money in politics. I'll be first in line to find a way to overturn Citizens United. But until then, we cannot unilaterally disarm. This takes power away from small donors. And I hope small donors will stand up and say we're not going to let this happen. We're going to give these candidates even more RoyCoop.com is a great place to go and to do that because we need to have a strong voice for everyday people. And this new decision just allows more money into the system. It leads to more corruption. We see open corruption in Washington right now. In fact, my opponent, as I mentioned, owns individual stock. When I ran for governor, I sold all of my individual stock. I have widely held mutual funds. I'm doing that during the campaign. I will do that as a United States senator regardless of what the law is. But I will work to pass a law that prohibits members of Congress and high executive officials from trading individual stocks. I'll support a law that stops allowing people to be lobbyists after they serve in Congress. We need to get people to trust the federal government again. And right now, people just don't. So we have to elect people not only who will fight to change laws. We're seeing that we have a lot of people who want to change the laws, but nothing ever happens in Washington on this. But who will set examples? And that's what I want to do when I get there. And the way this money is going to come in, I hope it won't affect these elections because I hope that people will step up and help these candidates. We've got to take back the House. We've got to take back the Senate. We've got to make sure that we come back to the Constitution that the framers intended where we have true checks and balances because right now we have leaders in Congress who simply will not stand up to the president. And you need to do that regardless of party. You need to do that. And the branches need to push against each other in order to make this great republic work. I'll say this for you to make it easier. But the ruling means that the R&C has a lot more money than the DNC. The R&C has more money than the DSCC, the programs have more money than the Democrats. If we are going to, the only way we're going to stay competitive in this race is for people to go to websites like worrycuper.com and push back because it's not, we are, we can win with grassroots donations. We are not going to match the ability there for billionaire in this race. So I'm just going to make, lay that out there from, I would do that for you to make that pitch easier for you. You said it better than I. Yes. And I think, I think you're right about that because they are, we can't catch up. the day. and see just simply can't catch up before November. So we're going to have to help from everyday people out there. The Democratic Party is in a bit of transition these days. And we have Democratic Socialists winning in New York City and Colorado. We have progressive anti-establishment candidates winning here. There we also have where Cooper is running in North Carolina and shared Browns running in Ohio. Is there a big attempt big enough for the party these days? Like, how are you thinking about what's going on in the party? You know, you're a two-term government establishment figure. There's this anti-establishment sort of fervor going on. Like, how are you navigating all of this? Well, I understand why people are frustrated. Because government often hasn't worked at the federal level and people are mad. And so I get it. People are paying too much. Things are costing too much out there. And they're frustrated. They don't have health care. They can't afford a place to live. My goodness, they had one bipartisan thing that they did, the housing bill that just got flipped on his head. That's just so frustrating. But look, I can just tell you what we've done here. I was a Democratic governor for eight years. I had a Republican legislature for eight years. And yes, I vetoed a lot of bad legislation and we we fall over a lot of things. But I found ways to work with them on recruiting good-paying jobs on our to our state to getting paid parental leave, to passing a law, to get our power sector to carbon zero by 2050. And finally, got a Republican legislature in a southern state to expand Medicaid, which has made a real difference. And we did that by getting their constituents in these red rural counties to lobby them for it. Because when I would use my contacts with sheriffs in some of these counties, when I served as Attorney General, and many of them would complain to me that essentially that a lot of people in their jail were struggling and needed health care. And so they understood that Medicaid expansion would bring more help to their county with medical services and would help keep their rural hospital open. And when you have a tough on crime, Republican sheriff walking the halls, lobbying for Medicaid expansion, it's very effective. And so we were able to work together on a common goal to get health care. And these red rural counties have benefited really more than anybody else here. 730,000 people in counting now have health care in North Carolina. And there are ways to work together. We saw it on the housing bill in Washington. We've got to have more people who are willing to sit down at the table. Even if they have disparate opinions, when you look at goals, often our goals are shared, even if we are on opposite ends politically. We want a good education for our kids. We want a good paying job. We want clean air and water. We want quality health care. We all want the same things. And we have to be willing to sit down at the table and find ways forwards. Find a way to achieve consensus. I did that as governor, time and time again. I want to do that in Washington. And I believe that Washington could use a dose of North Carolina common sense. I'm ready to come and try and provide that. Not only from a governor, attorney general perspective, a state legislator perspective, but I practiced law for 18 years and was a managing partner of my small firm for a while. I had to make a payroll. So I have a lot of background that I think I can use in helping to shape legislation, walking across the aisle, trying to find a way forward because people just want government to work. And right now it's not. I think governor, I think it's a great place to end it. Governor Cooper, thank you so much for joining us. And we'll talk to you again soon. Thanks, Dan. Appreciate it. All right. That's our show for today. Thanks for working so fast. It was so fast. Sorry to cut you off. It's been an hour. We've been doing this for an hour. No, I mean, it just I just meant like it. Like it was just when you're having this much fun. Emotional highs and lows. It was yes. And it was important because it was our last grand plan or conversation ever. Oh my god. Mark that in your calendars. That was seriously. Okay. Thanks to Roy Cooper for coming on. Tommy will be back in the feed on Sunday. With a conversation with Gary Linnaker. Host of the rest is football and legendary England striker to talk about the World Cup in the politics of soccer. Talk to everyone soon. Bye, everyone. Pods in America is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts, and Ferris Safari with Reed Cherlin, Elijah Cohn, and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Heffko, Charlotte Landis, David Tolls, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Sengel. Our staff is proudly unionized with the writer's guild of America East. I'm Nate Silver. I'm Galen Druke. And I'm Claire Malone. We're back. This time with our friends at crooked media for a new show called Still Counting. Yeah, numbers are hard. Take so easy. What does the data actually say? And how do we use that to understand or maybe even dare to predict the future of American politics?