55. The Queerness Episode: Nonbinary, Nonprofit, Nonconforming

You know, I just really don't think nonprofits should be run like nonprofits. Like this is a business and we need to think about, you know, if we want to be in business for 100 years or 200 years or 300 years, like what does it actually look like to build it out? Welcome back to "The Villain." So today we're talking with Bee Paggle's minor. Did I pronounce that right? Paggle. Paggle's. I usually ask before. I've never heard of that sort of thing, but I forgot to this time. And so in this episode, we're going to be talking about all things kind of like around queerness and non-binaryness. And so I'm just going to go ahead and let you be kind of just introduce yourself and tell us whatever you think the audience should know about you. Well, everyone, I am Bee Paggle's minor. I am a product manager in the Bay Area, a large media tech company. However, the reason I was so excited to talk with everyone today is that I'm also on the board of Power of Brown Health and YWCA of Chicago, which are both amazing nonprofits in Chicago that are doing amazing work around LGBTQ+ women and children's issues as well as the fights in racism. And the most specifically, if you want to know a few things about me, I am a quintessential lesbian. I play softball. I read lesbian fiction, and I'm proud of it. I also edit some of the lesbian fiction. So that's another step. That's another step. That's the whole another step. I've also been married to my wonderful wife for four years. And then my wife, my sister and I all made the trek to the Bay Area from Chicago, but we're originally from Mississippi. I'm definitely interested in hearing B talk more just about the intersectionality of caring that what you were talking about as a product designer, like a product manager, and how that carries into your work in these other spaces and things like that. Just start off with, I will give you a little bit of my background because that has influenced a lot of how I kind of perceive what's wrong with the world, right? So I grew up as like the quintessential, like, you know, mom was a single mom, three kids, poor is all get out. You know, we didn't have health care. We didn't have all of those resources. And one of the things that I knew in my life is that like I was sick pretty much my entire life. Like I was always sick. Like to the point that my guidance counselors were like, well, we don't think we're going to recommend you for college because we don't think you're actually committed to learning. And I was like, actually, that's not true. Like I've literally am to sick all the time and I can't be at school, right? But my grades never suffered. Like I always did well in school, but people didn't really believe that I was actually sick. And what I really learned is, you know, once I graduated from college, so first of all, actually in college was the first time I actually had a health care plan, right? Because my college required you have a health care plan and they gave me a scholarship to cover my health care. And so I actually got cancer in college and it was so crazy to me because, you know, my school was the one who drove me to my appointments and made sure I had a doctor. And it was the first time I understood this like idea of like what it means to have like actual like actual health care. And if you have actual health care, how you can actually survive things. And so for me, there's always been this like this tie between being successful in life and having great health care, right? And now of course, now I'm a rich person, right? Yeah, I worked for really large tech companies and I have all the fancies, uh, health care in the world. In fact, I just had spinal surgery and it was like the easiest, simplest, like most chill thing in the whole world because I'm a person who lives in California. And literally they had a guitar, like person playing guitar to make us more calm for our surgery, right? Like this is how like the love of that's wild. Exactly. That is what I found is that when you have great health care, you can be economically successful. So as I've gone health through my life and I've had the privilege of having all of this access, it's like, it's like literally this rocket ship of my professional life because I have everything I need to be successful every day in life. And so that's what we're doing at HowerBoundHealth and YWCA, right? At HowerBoundHealth, you know, LGBTQ+ folks in particular, they often are treated very differently when they go to medical facilities. And there's a couple different things there, right? So if you're a lesbian, you know, the first thing that you're going to have to deal with, is, you know, doctors can still make you do a pregnancy test and all this other stuff, even though it does not apply to you. And then you have to economically pay for that, right? And a pregnancy test is like 50 bucks. You know, we also know that lesbians and bisexual individuals have some lowest income in the entire country, right? So they, like if you were thinking about, you know, the fact that, you know, black women get paid, you know, like such a small percentage of what, you know, white women get paid, even within that subsection, lesbian and bisexual people get paid even less than that. So they are, you know, there's no, there's no statistic that would say that they're not poor, right? So paying $50 for that test becomes a huge deal. You know, gay men often, because when they go in, you know, they have doctors who won't even treat them because they're still this pervasive idea that they could have diseases that would not be normal. As a trans person, you know, as a transdom binary individual, I have to go in and when I go into a doctor, I have to tell a doctor very specifically from the job, by the way, or an end of the day, then there, these other things do not apply to me. And if you think if I were a trans man, they would, they, I would have to make the choice between telling them I'm a man or telling them I'm a trans man. And if I tell them I'm a man, that means they won't do any of the tests necessary to check my female organs to make sure that my female organs are operating as expected, right? And so there's this really, there's this document that came out called disclosure. And it was actually talking about how trans characters were portrayed in movies and TV shows for, you know, since the beginning of time. And one of the common tropes is actually this idea that, you know, a trans person goes to the hospital and finds out that because they didn't remove their, you know, ovaries or they didn't remove their, you know, you know, male parts and things like that, they end up getting cancer of that thing and they die from that thing. But the thing isn't that actually is a true story because you have to choose how you represent yourself to a doctor to get respect. And so there's like this, there's all this work that needs to be done still that we have to touch each one of these individual, you know, individuals in the medical profession to educate them on how to treat trans folks. But that also goes to black women because we know black women do not often get the care that they need when they go to medical facilities as well, which is why the, you know, mortality rate for pregnant black women is so much higher in this country than anywhere else in the world. As someone that has also went from like not really having a ton of access to healthcare, it's just someone that like, that someone that works and, you know, I'm a rich person that has like, that's pretty much as much access to healthcare as I want. It is, yeah, such a bizarre and starkly different way of living, right? Like, from to this day thinking about like, when something's wrong with me, I like have to remember like, oh, I guess I could go to the doctor. Because that's just not the way that I was raised. It wasn't something that we thought of when I was a kid. Yeah, I was really curious about one thing that you mentioned around like, is it not, I mean, maybe I assume it's definitely more fraught than what I would imagine. But is it not like, pretty straightforward for a doctor to distinguish like medically between your gender and your sex and like to still understand like what to test for and like that kind of thing? So it's about the experience, right? So if you are a trans man, for instance, you go to that doctor and you tell him you're a man, they're going to treat you very straightforward. You're going to get a certain level of respect. If you're a trans man, there's a chance that doctor won't even treat you. Like, we'll just say no, like I don't treat you just like ideologically. So it's actually more about like, it's a moral conundrum, right? Because the hypocritical says you're supposed to treat people, but these doctors are actually going against that principle and saying, I'm just not going to treat you because I don't treat trans people. So it's not even, it's not a question about them being able to distinguish is about like their own personal bias, keeping them from providing the proper treatment to that individual. Okay. But even for doctors that are willing to treat trans individuals, like, did they still end up seeing these issues where there's like, you're given, you're not given the appropriate tests or like, you know, they're not checking for the right things based on your needs. Like, what is that, you know, why is it having? So then in that case, it's not necessarily that particular issues of pervasive issue. It's about the psychological safety of the visit, right? So for instance, if you're a trans man and you're talking to this doctor who is, you know, just not aware of trans issues, per se, right? So for instance, they might not check for all the right things. So for instance, I take test as a showroom. So I actually need to be under the care of a chronologist as well as a primary care physician. And we need to be checking my blood work constantly just to make sure nothing changes or like, there's any imbalance. So there could be a lack of awareness about some tests they should do. So that's one thing. That's why they do need to start an education. But then secondly, that doctor may ask me questions that misjinder me or make me uncomfortable, right? And so that becomes a psychological safety thing. And so that person may feel less comfortable going to that doctor because they feel like they're not being respected from an identity perspective. Right. So is there ways like in the trans community to like kind of communicate which doctors you've had good experiences with and which ones are kind of more literate and queer issues? And I think that's, oh yeah, definitely. So first of all, like I said, so. like Powerbound Health and then like Finway Health, like there's a bunch of these like walk walk or Whitman and DC Like there's a bunch of these like LGBTQ identify health centers So first and foremost like everyone knows start there and then like usually if those places are kind of full up They will also give you recommendations for other people and then there's lots of websites and things like that But the problem is still from a percentage perspective like if you're in Simitou in Mississippi where I'm from there is no doctor, right? So yeah, so it's also about availability because the majority of these these types of caregivers who you can go to are primarily in cities and then they are primarily you know feeling far between right so that's one of the difficulties there It's that's why like organizations like Powerbound Health, you know They have like a whole education part of the business where they're just trying to go out and educate people on how to treat people well Because like the goal is really just to try to expand outside of these health centers and kind of make everyone else better Because there's not enough of these like actual super focus practices out there Yeah, I mean I would love to hear more about your experiences in terms of like Navigating the you know like the tech world because I know like you know You mentioned you do project product management, right product management or is it something else? Yes, it's not a management. Okay cool and like I imagine that there's like ways in which that comes up and you know especially if you have had to deal with you know in terms of like doing contract work or something with Many different you know clientele how how I would imagine tech is better than probably other industries in terms of being like Literate around queer issues, but I don't know if that's a good assumption or not like I don't know what your experience been Yeah, you know, I think it all depends right so one of the things that I've learned you know now So I grew up in the South and then I kind of started my you know What's a college and started my career in the Midwest and now I'm on the West Coast so like obviously as I've gone for the West Things are so right so like there's no question about the fact that people are Where but I think it's also a curiosity thing so like when I'm on the West Coast like the way the thing the types of issues that are kind of being Thought about you know people are much more curious about them. So that's the first thing and then I will say that I also'm very fortunate because I'm a product And so product managers in a typical technical technical company right technology company We have outsized influence on most of the business right because like we are the ones who are kind of supposed to know We're literally trying to decide what customers need Build that thing generate lots of money for a company. So like it gives us the ability to you know Impact all parts of the business and because of that you know, it's you it's very normal for us to be loud So I'm very fortunate in what I do and the fact that it gives me space to be loud But having said that there's been a number of experiences in my career where I've been kind of shocked right it How stupid people can be right and and I should say I so I came out as transdumbinary in 2014 right and so this is the first time I was like you know, I'm they them there and changed my name and so you know my legal name is Bethany But you know I now you know identify as B And so like you know it was still like this very nation process and I remember I was like you know being I was at this company And everyone's like super excited about me. They're like be like you're so great. You're going out there You're helping us recruit like you're literally like the exact face that we went out there and we were like we had some kind of like Like a recruiting event and I was like up there and they let me speak and I was like literally the face of this company And then we're having drinks afterwards and a senior director was just like hey B You know that like pronoun thing you're doing right now where you're they them there you know it's gonna like hurt your career here Right and I was just like what I was like wait you just you literally just put me out there is like the face of your company And talked about how great I am and then you told me like right afterwards that you actually think that I'm not gonna go anywhere Because my identity is different than what you expect it and so that's that's a cognitive dissonance of like Being my identity right because like in so many ways like I said like I'm usually put in this position Because of my my role and my diversity that like I'm this person that they kind of like look to you for like this experience But then I still have these individual like Interactions that are very disheartening and troublesome right and it's something that like is a constant process because no matter How educated or how evolved someone is there's always a blind spot even for myself like you know Actually, it's really interesting about me identifying these trans non-binary's that I'm also part of this class of trans folks who when we first Like learn about trans people. We were always just like we don't get it right and a lot of times It's like when you are a part of that group You're like the most hateful towards that group like when you when you first learn about it because like you're because you're You're trying to deny the fact that you are a part of that group. You're like no I can't be I can't be trans like that's too far like my my family would be very upset with that right So instead I'm just gonna be kind of a dick to them or whatever and so I was like a part of that group And so it took me to kind of have my come to Jesus moment where I was just like oh I'm being such a jerk about this because I am trans right and so I need to be better right so that's the thing That's the thing about these things is that sometimes you should be better because like you like you know Especially like that senior director, right? She was a woman She and we and it was an organization. It was very male dominated that was not as a pretty toxic environment In fact, and most of the people who were awesome who worked at that organization no longer work at that organization because it was so toxic Right and because of the fact that she is dealing with that same thing She actually thought she was helping because like we talked about it much later You know because I I wrote about it a long time ago and she was just like honestly She was just like I was a woman here and I did like you and I thought I was helping you by telling you that you had to fit into a category Right and she's like but now I know that that was just my own fear because like I was dealing with all this bullshit And I thought I was helping you but I wasn't really helping you in fact That was actually harming you in that way. So I mean that's just goes to this like idea And so that and it's pervasive through tech so like and then I also should say like that company was in Chicago Chicago tech is tremendously different than West Coast tech like Chicago tech first of all It's in a lot of the more traditional industries that like automotive Insurance banking right and when you think about traditional industries like like the way that they're disrupting it is not the same way that someone who's trying to like you know Care food and food insecurity or right like or change the way that we do health care And so like it's a lot more conservative right and so it's also like this idea that like depending on your company You will have a tremendously different experience Then someone who is at this other company, you know I'm a really large media technology company now and it's like so weird because even coming from you know I was just an apple right and I even come from Apple I was like this company is still so much more liberal than even Apple which is just like shocking to me because I was just like I was like I was like I was like all our way to Kumbaya sometimes like this is like this is a little uncomfortable You guys are too nice like you're too thoughtful. You're careful about my whole being like I don't I don't really know how to deal with this You know that type of yeah, sometimes I don't I can't think about my whole being right now and I'm confused Exactly exactly, you know, so that's what I'm saying so even like even within West Coast like there's like tremendous degrees of separation between Companies, but like I said the good thing about my career and what I do for a living is that I get to have outsize influence on so many different things So even within like those moments where I'm like this feels a little uncomfortable or weird I still get to say it feels uncomfortable because of this let's let's maybe try this slightly different thing That's a little less overwhelming. I think what's wild about the person you said that she was a senior director, right? Mm-hmm And so she like is what's wild is that she literally has Like power her she had power to influence the way that the company treated you If you know, but she in a way like not so veiled way was like was saying like at the same time I'm not gonna use that power to change this the change is culture and in fact I think that you need to assimilate Exactly and also taking advantage of you What in this way internal bias is like such a dangerous thing like a lot of times we do more harm Because of our own internal drivers than anything that every startling you know gets applied to us Right oh I was just gonna ask to Here you talk a little bit more on Yeah, like how you're taking the the product design approach to Or the product management approach to the Work that you've been doing like the activist and work that you're doing and the work that you've been doing with the various organizations that you're in Yeah, so what is things about product management is that you have to like so there's one you don't make a lot of assumptions right like it's a lot It's very much data driven is very much driven by you know specific information that you get from your your intended audience Things like that right and so what's really great about that is that you don't have to remake The bicycle right a lot of times all I'm really doing is going to that like an individual user is saying I had this idea What do you think of this and then figuring out from them which parts they actually you know Actually think about and they they agree with in which parts they don't think about so one of things about nonprofit work Especially when you think about all of activism and things like that is that a lot of times it's like throwing a lot of stuff up there In helping something lands, but that's really inefficient and ineffective right and it doesn't really do a great job of making sure that There's one holistic message that's kind of going out there And so a lot of times with the nonprofits that I'm working for is time taking a taking a step back And putting like that business product management lens All the work that we're doing right So for instance one of the organizations I've been working with they really they do a lot of like events for Basically non-mails right, you know, so trans men trans women Female identified queers Non-binary people and things like that and so like there was like this whole struggle of trying to figure out like how the heck Do we go about you know, translating to people what we're trying to do. And so they were trying to come up with like, all different names and like all different definitions. And I was like, just send it out to people. I was like, if you send it out to people and people get mad, right? Like, you know it's the wrong definition. But if you send it out to people and people agree, then it's the right track, right? And so it's about taking on partners from the community, making less assumptions, but then also thinking about it from a holistic approach, right? So like, what can you actually support? You know, so that's another thing that is like a big issue in my opinion, like a lot of nonprofit and activist organizations, they try to be a part of, you know, everything that comes up, you know, like, you know, let's say if you're an LGBTQ organization, you're like, okay, well, there's, you know, our transfer than a shirt shirt are being attacked right now. Let's go to be a part of this. You know, it's, you know, with Black Lives Matter, it's like, let's also make sure Black Lives Matter is a part of this. But, you know, there's prison reform, let's also do prison reform. And it's like, no, let's take a scale it back down to what we think we can accomplish at a high level, right? Because the other part of this is that we need to win. And so that's a big thing about product management is about winning, right? It's not about like, oh, you know, let's just keep doing things and not having something that we think has been demonstrably successful. And so instead, it's like, okay, let's just fill this down. And if we have 45 different things here, let's put a score on these different things to figure out which one's going to be most effective and which one's going to be a win. So then we can put that out to our community and show them that we're winning on this thing. So then when we decide to pivot to our next item, we'll have more people to support us with that item so we can then win at that item as well, right? And so it's being a lot more thoughtful and holistic or approach and then actually coming up with like a plan that can be successful at each different level, right? That's really interesting because I feel like it's really difficult for, you know, any kind of activist group to get to that level coordination where you're actually able to agree on like, okay, these are a medium-term goals. Like how are we going to like, you know, pursue them and like, you know, same for any kind of like, it's hard, I think, for any group to be able to do that, but, you know, like you're saying like, oh, we have to get like, you know, the Black Lives Matter people and like, you know, like the LGBT people all on the same, like it's just really difficult to get people on the same page with any of this stuff, right? - Well, and that's what, and you know, and one thing I didn't mention there is that, that's why it's also so important to get great leadership, right? You know, like so it's very important to get people who are less reactive and more visionary, right? And when you do get that, like when I think about YWCA, especially actually YWCA and Howard Brown, so YWCA is run by Dory McHorter and she actually has like this huge like consulting background and she was just like, you know, I just really don't think nonprofits should be run like nonprofits, like this is a business and we need to think about, you know, if we want to be in business for 100 years or 200 years or 300 years, like what does it actually look like to build it out? And the same thing at Howard Brown Health with David Ernesto Moonar, like he's this visionary leader and so it's also about that, right? Like you have to put, you have to imbue the right people with power. So sometimes I think that, and I'm gonna get, like when this goes out, I'm gonna totally get dogged, I'm gonna get a lot of messages about this. There's a lot of people who are great at being the voice at something, but they are terrible being leaders. But we often put them as leaders when in reality, they should just be the person who says the speech. Like you go do the speech and then like the people behind you are actually gonna do the work, you know? I mean, that's Bayard Rustin, was like that, right? So Bayard was behind MLK saying, oh no, let's not do this thing over here, let's do this thing over there. And that's why the civil rights movement was so effective, right? So you need to have the actual leaders, be the people who can execute a high level and the people who want to be the voices and face and like these celebrities, let them go do that thing separately. - Yeah, and I think that this is a good testament to sort of like the benefit that can come from mixing, like tactics from the for-profit industry into like the nonprofit workings. And there's a lot of systemic reasons about why nonprofits have had a hard time, you know, operationalizing business tactics, whether it might be like underfunding or this idea that it's hard to retain good talent or whatever, but it's hard to figure out how to get there and how to make that change in the nonprofit industry. This is something I thought a lot about. But yeah, it's wild, like just having someone like you or whoever it might be to sit and think about like messaging and testing and like like preventing scope creep is huge for an organization. - Exactly. And you know, one of the things that I thought was very interesting, especially when I first got involved in nonprofits in Chicago, I was surprised at how many people were allowed to stay in their jobs even though they didn't do work. (laughs) And it was like, and people would be like, well, like Sandra over here knows all the skeletons in the closet and I was like, that's cool, you can call Sandra, right? And ask her that question when she's at home, right? But like it's also about like, you know, you have to have this narrow, like you have to have an army that is narrowly focused that is all committed to the same thing. And if you don't have it, like it just, oh my gosh, it just becomes terrible. And in fact, you know, so I keep abreast of like, all the cities I've lived in, so like, you know, Cinematobia, Memphis, Chicago, Durham, North Carolina, the Bay Area, and I look at the nonprofits and like it's always interesting because you can see this trajectory of nonprofits where like they lose their focus, they retain the wrong types of people and then they just kind of disband and they become a part of some other organization. And it's almost always because it's like, dude, like if you just, you know, took a step back and stood up to the right people and then focused on the right things, like you would still be around. And the thing is we can't lose them, right? Like so to a certain extent, like, there's always gonna be like just like corporations, just like there's a lot of corporations kind of coming together now. There's gonna be a lot of nonprofits now that are gonna probably see, see exists and they'll kind of get folded into other nonprofits, which is fine, right? But, you know, one of the things about that is that we still need those people who are interested in that thing to be interested in that thing, right? We can't lose that. So that's the thing that's most important. Like, you know, you can't lose the person who's interested in K through 12 education or K through 12 launches, right? Like that's so important and you need that person to be just as loud and inspired because you can't lose that focus. And so that's the thing that we, that we, like with the way that a lot of nonprofits have been run previously, we would let people just leave because like we wouldn't, we wouldn't focus on the right things. The wrong leaders were in play. And then those people would just be like, well, I'm the one person who cared about this thing and actually was getting something done. So I just left, right? And so that's what's really cool about a lot of modern nonprofits or at least a lot of modern nonprofits that I respect is that we're focusing a lot more on like retaining talent. Like, I'm in the head of the HR committee at Howard Brown Health and the reason I'm the head of the HR committee is because I worked at so many corporations with such terrible HR policies that I was just like, we're gonna be the nonprofit with the best HR policies. We're gonna treat people so well, they're gonna wanna stay because if we can get people to stay at Howard Brown, this organization will last forever and we will be so successful. And to be truthful, the people are at Howard Brown, are the reason Howard Brown is so successful, right? Like it went from a $20 million organization when I first started to a $250 million organization. And it's because we invest so much time and energy in just making our employees the most successful and giving them every resource they need to be amazing. - Yeah, I feel like part of the reason why there's this disconnect between the corporate environment and what goes on in a lot of these nonprofits is that there's this notion that if you have this focus on this cold kind of corporatist, let's look at the metrics of what are these people, how are they able to execute that kind of thing? That's not what nonprofits, by nature of almost rejecting this element of capitalism are optimizing for. And so I feel like a lot of places will kind of keep on these people because they're like, oh, but like, you know, we are mission driven and therefore we're like nice to people and we're like, you know, able to kind of like treat people differently in that way. But then I think that often with that results in is like a failure to actually execute on a lot of things 'cause that's not necessarily gonna be the same like subset of people who can actually like get things done, right, you can be really, really interested in like a particular cause, right? But that doesn't necessarily translate into you being able to like, you know, do work well. It's like a totally different skill set. It doesn't necessarily overlap at all. - And you know, the thing is that what I actually like to like say, I don't really preach this scarcity mindset, but with nonprofits actually think it makes sense to have a scarcity mindset. It's like if there is a restriction on the amount of resources that are available to you, then in certain expectations should be put in place where it's different than a normal corporation, right? In fact, in some ways I actually think that an nonprofit should be a little bit more cutthroat than a corporation because corporation has a lot of different mechanisms for, you know, to become economically viable, right? Because, you know, corporation can, you know, create a new business or get funding or create debt mechanisms or what, so, you know, all these different things to actually sustain themselves. An nonprofit usually only has like individual donations, grants of some sort. And trying to think is there a third one? Now, that's pretty much the only two things that they have, right? In some form of scarcity, but from a scarcity mechanism, it's like, you should almost be more cutthroat. It's like, if you, like, we literally only have these two options, right? And if you aren't, you know, utilizing our option well to accomplish our goal, like, you are actually worse than a corporate reader, right? Because like, you know, like, I only have these $2, right? Yeah, this corporate rate of essentially gets $20 million. Yeah, so that's why so that's the thing. So and that's why it is like it's a major mindset and there's like a lot There's a lot of change over happening because even like grant like grant granters and things like that They have different expectations of nonprofits now like they're starting to get like a lot more strategic and how they go through it Whole nonprofits accountable. So it's gonna. I do think that over the next 10 15 20 25 years Not probably gonna be drastically different than they are now just because Expectations of the people giving the money out are very different as well You know, and and all this to say that like again, I love nonprofits, right? Because like I am a person who knows that without nonprofits like a lot of things that that have impacted my life beautifully are probably because of nonprofit was standing behind there lobbying and trying to do this work to get it done but There's The thing about 2000 but 2008 economic crisis so after 2008 economic crisis There were less donations and have ever had that have ever been to nonprofits After this COVID crisis there's gonna be even less donations, right? So we have a small small pool of money To try to impact so much of the world, right? And so it's just gonna be excuse Things gonna have to drastically change Right in order for us to ensure that we're actually getting the impact that we're looking for Yeah, I think that One thing sailing that I wanted to mention is that I have seen you know or heard of like a lot of a lot of nonprofits Suffer really bad from a lack of focus or from scope creep and the thing that almost seems to bring it on is like they might be frantically searching for funding or for grants and then maybe we'll take a grant For a program that they don't even really do you know, it's like oh, like maybe we can do like we you know We work in human rights like maybe we can do a prison reform program or like maybe we can do you know like a Returning citizens program even though that's not something that they're like experts in and so it's ironic that like The you know, sometimes it seems like in order to stay focused on the mission and like be able to like better utilize their resources Sometimes it means just not applying for the grant that you really are that you like you really want or that you maybe you feel like you really need You have a very good point there um in fact a strategy that some nonprofits do is that let's say if they think they have a better chance of getting that grant But they don't necessarily have the expertise yet They'll actually partner with another nonprofit that actually has an expertise and then kind of you know kind of have work with them It's actually it's the chief at grant however on the flip side of that one of the reasons that a lot of nonprofits have gotten in trouble is that They try to go apply for that grant and then they can do it and then the grants are wanting money back and then the nonprofit goes up in flames right So it is it is a very difficult thing and it's also it's kind of strange right So this is something I've never really liked about the grant process is that like there's like this narrow focus a lot of the times Right like so for instance let's say if it is like a prison reform program and part of the program that you like identify is That you need to ensure that the prisoners get counseling right to to make sure that they They don't you know suffer from the harm of being prison That did you also want to do counseling with their families their family like doesn't you know put them back in the same situation Where that they are going to be likely to commit a crime um or and then also let let's say that you also want to like provide some kind of basic Materials so like let's say clothes or like food because like again You're thinking about prison reform like what are the things that you need to put around that to actually make sure that person doesn't go back to prison Well, the problem is that grant might only like actually qualify for the the counseling right But you know you need to do all these other three things and so technically that grant naturally makes you like It's going to make sure that that program is not successful right because it's so prescriptive in terms of what it actually will pay for And so there is like that whole aspect of it is like you know from a from a Grant perspective. I do think that the people who are actually providing this funding needs to be much more thoughtful about what they think actually would be needed for this to be successful and they also need to be much more um Aminable when an organization comes back to them and goes you know We actually reassess this and we actually think we need to do this this and this and so that we might have less people go through this program But we think we'll have a higher rate of success for instance They need to be amenable to those types of changes as well So that so it's like a it's definitely a partnership that needs to happen because like the people are actually trying to execute on this You know, they they don't know what it's going to look like until they actually get into this process and then there needs to be a simple easy way for them to kind of change the parameters around that so they could be more successful So is it well and I I feel like I've had a couple of guests on the pod and like last couple of months where we have You know come to like a summer conclusion of you know We need to put people like in marginalized like or with marginalized identities like you know people with different perspectives in Actual positions where they can you know like Cruciate and impact and it seems like you know your position is a good example of that but I wonder about The flip side and you kind of talked about this already like what is what have been your experiences with like tokenization Like have you felt like have you felt like you were you talked about how like the company that you were working for like Kind of made you the face but didn't back it up Um with you know with like actual support. Is that something that you kind of Feel like you've been vying against your whole career Yes and no and the reason I say yes and no is that like this is again, it's about regionality right so in the Midwest I feel like they're the every company I would work at they would be like be go out there be the person people see because we want to recruit more of you guys because it'll look good for us Right on the west coast not so much because there's a lot of you know like there's a lot of diversity and things like that And so what I have found is that and and there's power in it right like so that's what that's the thing that's really weird about this And this is the that's the kind of challenge I think being an ultra diverse person in a position of power is that On one hand it's very frustrating. It's very frustrating. It's very demeaning to a certain extent Especially when a lot of times like the conversation would be like well be like we called you into this meeting today Because we really wanted to talk about how we can recruit black people or we can recruit female people or how we can recruit LGBTQ plus people And I was just like well to be truthful your whole recruiting sure I do sucks actually so like I like I don't want to just talk about those subject because like I actually think college is doing a bad job in general right and so it's like I like you know Just like this this this movement to kind of kind of make me quieter and like kind of put me into this box And so it's been my responsibility to kind of like very loudly say that like you know Hey, just because you want me to talk about this thing does not mean that I'm gonna be restricted to that like I'm gonna try to influence every single aspect of what you're doing And even in my current company like this company is much better than any other company I've worked at However, I still find myself in this position where I'm just like oh, you know this person's gonna be hiring soon Let me make sure that I am in the meeting that are talking about who they're hiring for So I can make sure I'm influencing them in the right ways because I know that even with a company that's this evolved They're not gonna be thinking it's bigger picture as I'm thinking when it comes to recruitment Well, what about their strategies do you think are not Working right because in the sense that like before you've joined an organization you have no idea right really like you know What they're actually what you know what's actually gonna be like kind of when you're on the inside and I'm curious What do you think that there's things that companies could be doing that are a little bit more like like What could genuinely be not only attracting people but kind of retaining people that you don't see Companies doing something just very in general so one I think companies especially the companies I know work at which are kind of like these like elite organizations they have this tendency to kind of like over emphasize like You know doctorates or like you know Ivy League schools In fact even like when I see some of the welcome emails from the various scenes I've worked on for the past few years They'll be like this person is great because they have a doctor from this and they what's this school right and so you're read like so the whole community of employees are getting Getting this idea that oh well if I want to recommend someone any type of doctorate and they need to also be potentially from this school Right which is not really true right like the defect is that we know that the companies made up of lots of different types of people with lots of different Background and so one of the things I always like kind of you know talk about is like making you know Employment approachable right we know that women we know that LGBTQ+ folks We know that black brown agent folks have a much less likely to apply for job unless they think they're absolutely perfect for that role So one of the things that you can do is is on your you know Jobs page just having lots of videos of people talking about their journey to that company like for instance if someone heard my journey to my current company Versus you know my managers they would just be like astonished they would be like how do those two people Both end up at the same company right and so it's about like creating this like very simple approachable aspect of it first of all Secondly, there needs to be other ways to actually get like to learn about a company Again, especially as minority people because we're trying to figure out if it's safe Like we're not even trying to figure out if we like it. We're just trying to figure out if it's safe Like having events and like opportunities to meet them that are not Job fairs or interviews right like you know one of the things I saw a company do was like they had like a dinner They was just like a dinner of like you know strong black leads in the area right and so like that was a really great opportunity There was no like recruitment done at that event I ended up meeting a whole bunch of cool black people that I just like wanted to hang out with for the rest of my life And then like later on when the company contacted me. I was like you know what I also might want to work for you Right, so it's also like creating like these like nice moments and I think but it also goes back to the product manager thing right like for it Is a product manager? I know if I don't make something really simple and easy that that people can just like access Really quickly they're not going to use the products and it's the same thing with recruitment like how can you make it really easy and like not terrifying so that people want to apply. And actually, in my current company, the only reason I am an employee of this company is that I have, obviously I mentioned before that I'm a speaker in all this other stuff. And so my manager was doing just a Google search for product managers in the area and he found my website. And he was just like, he sent me an email saying, "Hey, I don't think you'd be interested in my company, but maybe you'd want to talk." And then that's how I talked to him. Because I would not have applied to my current company because I thought I was also too intimidated by this company to actually apply. I didn't think I was going to be considered. And I would not have applied, but the fact that he reached out to me is the reason I'm actually an employee. And so again, so this is another one of these examples of, what do I need to do to diversify my pool of applicants so that I can potentially find the perfect person for this role versus having the same old people apply. And that's his bravery. So that's one of the really great things about when you go outside of the typical standards of recruiting. Right. It's definitely like there's so many more creative things people can be doing outside of just having a quote on me, like, "Oh no, we just have to hope that these people are going to apply. There's so many things that you can actually do that you just don't see very many companies doing." It's just like, it just takes them initiative. Yeah. One of the things I like to Apple, so a bunch of the directors of Apple made the decision that they weren't going to hire anyone or put out any job offers until they had done two things. One interviewed, like a certain number of candidates. Let's say that the certain number is like 10 candidates. And then all those candidates, at least 25% of those people had to be women. Right. And so when they put those parameters on themselves, then all of a sudden they were like, "Well, I can't actually go through and put any offers out because I'm not getting any women." And so then that's when all of those people started going to Grace Hopper Convention and all of those other things. They were just like, "How can I go about getting the right people in the door because I'm putting requirements on myself that I can't even meet." Right. And again, but it's also like changing the mindset. I guess this whole podcast, what we've been talking about is people have to change their mindset. Right. Because when you change your mindset, it gives you this ability to kind of go through and make these major changes that make your organization much more successful. I also feel like internally a lot of the issues are just that we often are like, "Okay, how can we take this institution as it currently looks and try to force women and minorities and whatever LGBT people into this box that has been defined by straight white men?" And this workplace culture that has been defined by straight white men. And it's sort of like how, like, why would you expect very many people to like want to be a part of that unless you actually make more drastic changes as to like, you know, a lot of like, you know, tech culture is also really kind of like placing a lot of value on people who just like work 80 plus hours a week and have this like kind of like, you know, crazy kind of like mentality around work life balance that like there's like other types of people can't really afford to have, right? And it's sort of like, instead of envisioning what is this system, like, what can the system look like if we just like try to force all of these people into this structure, you have to actually think about how you can change the institution in the first place. Yeah. I mean, honestly, this is like COVID is a little bit of a blessing, right? Because the reason that people could work 80 hours a week was because they also had all of this structure around their lives, right? I think about like the moms and dads who I honestly, especially at Apple, I used to see people work. The number like the number of hours I would see them work was insane to me and they had like three kids. And I was like, how do you have kids and you can work this long? But it's because they had daycare, you know, they had nannies, they had all these like people who made their lives work. And COVID is teaching us that actually this was all very, very perilous, right? Like all of the structure that we had dependent on that allowed us to kind of just kill our selves for our work doesn't exist, you know, in this situation. And so it's going to make, it's going to be very fascinating to see how companies change because, you know, I just, I just, I don't understand how this will work moving for, you know, because like I know myself personally too, like as soon as I understood how serious COVID could be, I was just like, do I even really care about my job that much? Right? Do I even, do I, do I even, like, like if they do open up the offices, like, am I just going to be one of those people who's just like, yeah, I'm not going back. So like you have to figure this out, right? So like it's just, it's completely changed your mind and it's a good thing for us, right? Like I do think it's actually a good thing. And even more so like so my wife and I, so my wife is white and I'm black and we're playing on having kids soon and our kids are going to be black. And so we were realizing like, you know, during this whole situation, we've been like, well, do we want to stay in the Bay Area? Because the Bay Area is very not black, right? And it's like, do we want to raise black kids in this area? And so then we're just like, well, maybe we could do LA or like maybe we're just going to have to go to remote remote first company so that we can go live somewhere where it's safer or we perceive it to be safer to be black and to raise black children, right? So like even from a minority perspective, like there's also this whole different lens I know that my friends and I are having that for the first time we are like, actually it's no longer acceptable that I have to work in one region to do the work that I love. Like, I'm just going to have to figure out how to do it at some other company or how to convince some other companies to kind of do this whole like, you know, you know, work from home first type of mechanism. Yeah, companies are going to have a real hard time like trying to go back to a all in person work style. If that's something that they try to do, once the one's the pandemic has passed. Most of us have been saying for years that most of this stuff could be in an email and we have to be proven that it really could just be an email. Yes, literally. Yeah, totally. And I think that so many more people who are going to be like, wait a second, like, I don't have to give up my entire community and move to this other city where I don't know anyone for my job. Like, this is literally my techno utopia is if we can get to a point where actually we cannot just move where our friends are. And like just like have these little communities. I mean, obviously that's like a very, you that's still only possible for people who can work remotely and, you know, who who are in this kind of like certain niche of like white collar jobs. But like, I feel like that would be the ideal outcome of this like terrible pandemic, you know. Yeah. And to be truthful, what would be so cool is if we got to live in a neighborhood that we care most about, we put our money into those neighborhoods and those neighborhoods, you know, become the things that we'd always thought they could be too. And so this becomes like this all like then it's like the cool kumbaya, like not the uncomfortable kumbaya. Like the actual, the actual cool, like not force kumbaya. If it's something that you're, if you're comfortable talking about, I would be really interested to hear about like the, the kind of what you're thinking about in terms of like, parenthood in terms of like being a queer person, because like that's something that has been, that's something that I've been thinking about a lot in terms of like how, first of all, obviously parenting is just like totally fucked right now for everyone who has to like just like have kids at home. But like, you know, just the dynamic of figuring out how this is, this is, this is, it's hard to kind of paraphrase this in a, in a very simple way. But I've just been thinking a lot about like how, how dominant this kind of like narrative of having these very heteroroles, especially in parenting are. And even for a lot of like queer people, I know there's a lot of this like, oh, like you still kind of sort of fall into these roles that are kind of defined by heteroparenting. But you know, is that something that is like, I think it's often very difficult to kind of like get away from that because it's just like you got somebody is probably more prone to like, you know, want to be the primary caretaker and or whatever. Like I'm just really curious what your thoughts are on that. Yeah, no, I definitely agree that it's something that we've been talking about. Like for instance, even with myself, like we've been trying to figure out like what will I be called? Like I think we settled on Bob I, which is like an African term, which often goes to like the more paternal person. But in this case, I just think it's very effective like in the name. And like my wife might be mama or mommy or something like that. And it, but it came from for us. It was more like, let's just like think about what we would actually want to be called. And then just kind of incurred our kid to call us that because I don't think either one of us really thinks that one of us is going to be more of a caretaker than other one. In some ways, in fact, I think that like since I grew up in like the Southern black mama family, like I'm like, I'm probably going to be the one who's going to be like, baby, you could have everything you want, right? Like I'm going to be like the pushover. Yeah. And like my wife, with her like Midwestern, like Eastern European, like, you know, like be practical will be like much more stringent, right? But like we're really thinking folks are more like our actual values versus like any roles or things like that. Just like my wife also likes to go camping and cabins and stuff like that. And I'm just like, no, I am a beautiful, you know, like scared of nature person. Like you go do that. I'm going to like be at the house and we're going to have like really nice dinners, like type thing. So I do think it's also about like trying to just remember that it's about who you are and not who like everyone else thinks you should be. And like that really helps, you know, a lot. And I was like, our big fear is actually that since we both came from like poor backgrounds, we're actually really terrified that since we're more affluent that our kids are going to turn out to be like giant assholes. Like that's like our number one fear. We're just like how do you raise kids when you have money and you could technically do lots of stuff for them that they don't take that for granted? Like so that's like our biggest fear. Like it's so we're always just like how do we like you know make sure they understand that working is a good thing? You know how do we make sure that they're nice to people and that they don't judge people? Like so those are things that are big like those are the scariest things to us. It's like how do you like make sure that happens when you don't have like the fact that you didn't have anything to kind of force you into that mindset? And so those are things that are like really interesting to that and that's one of the reasons why we've talked about potentially moving to a different area because we're like well maybe if we live in a more diverse area they'll like you know be around more different types of people so maybe they won't have a lot of the because classism is an issue right? So maybe they won't have as many of those classes thoughts that will naturally come up because we naturally can give them more. Yeah we had a whole podcast episode about just like that whole kind of navigating intergenerational wealth and like how do you you know like how do you separate okay now I have wealth and like that from wealth culture which is basically defined by like being exclusionary and being an asshole and like you know like right like yeah I've always like struggled with the idea of like do I need to like impose artificial scarcity on a child? Like that doesn't feel like the right thing to do you know exactly yeah it sounds just like like so maybe you know chores are a real thing right? Like you really don't get money unless you do chores you know when you're 16 maybe you really do have to do some kind of work thing like you know there's lots of nonprofits right so maybe it's like you have to volunteer and that's how you get like access to funding or like toys or stuff like that so it's like trying to come up with like these rules that doesn't feel like we're penalizing them for something that's not their fault technically right because it's technically not their fault that we're better off than our parents were but at the same time influences them to not be shitty yeah totally it's like but it's also crazy too because like being kind of newly wealthy like you know I think even just like the fact that you're thinking about that kind of thing in the place where somebody who just like inherited all their money and like you know grew up in a perfectly like you know kind of just atmosphere where they didn't even question it like it's like well like of course I'm gonna like you know do all these things for my kids and then I guess it's like like the the hitch to me is like oh is it sort of like all of these people who like are trying to like interview this like character and their kids are going to like still kind of like artificially kind of put these crutches on their children such that those other kids are still gonna have kind of a leg up on in terms of like just actually trying to achieve quality right um let's go point at the end of the day right because you feel guilty about it yeah because like well because there's actually so there's like this this thing so I listened to the read podcast a lot in crystal and kid fury we're talking about the fear that our parents put on us and how like now that we understand it we call it anxiety right like you know so like their anxiety kept us from doing some of the things in fact with my wife all the time they'd always be like yeah I agree if those are white people things right but the reality is that I shouldn't have this mindset that there are white people things versus like non white people things instead I should just decide like I think that's stupid versus that's not stupid right like like that's the whole as a much healthier way of thinking about something versus equating it with something that I shouldn't do as a black person and so it's like the same exact concept there right which is like I should not be telling my kids they absolutely can't do something because they could prohibit them from taking that privilege and using it in a really great way they could completely change the world right so like you know maybe they wouldn't apply to Harvard because I'd be like well you know just because we can't go to Harvard don't go to Harvard I don't know you know like but it's like you know making sure that like whatever like I'm never too prescriptive in the way that I'm raising them right and so that's and the good thing about that is that but that's why I think something I've taken away a lot as an adult is is that adults are just as dumb as anyone else right and so like I have to constantly be trying to educate and challenge myself and be better so that I can be better for everyone around me including my future kids. Unless yeah um I mean so so what are the things that are that our podcast tries to look at from from almost a macro standpoint is like okay how are the ways in which like kind of people in our generation are taking norms and kind of just these these assumptions that I think our parents generation and previous generations have kind of taken for granted right and using them to really shift like the what our workplace culture looks like what our relationships looks like basically like every you know fastened of our lives and I one thing that I you know thought was really interesting when you said you wanted to talk about like kind of queer issues that I think that that is something where we are really pervasively changing norms I think you like pretty rapidly too because I do think that the shift around you know for example like a major corporations like suddenly becoming super like oh you know like you know we love pride let's like color all of our logos like rainbow during pride month and like that kind of thing like I'm really curious where you think how far you can think we've common terms of like actually changing norms that actually matter as opposed to you know obviously that example is often more kind of performative and taking advantage of the fact that the norms have been changing but like and where you think it's kind of like we have along you know a long ways to go but we're you know we're still kind of like marching towards that you know yeah you know I think it was really interesting to me because I kind of think about LGBTQ rights in two ways so the big wave for the longest time was marriage right because we knew and then to be truthful when I think about the marriage equality fight I actually don't think about it in terms of oh this was an equality thing this was like it to me is actually a wealth thing right because we know that you know it's a very big difference you know taking wealth from one generation to another generation or from a spouse to another spouse when you have marriage equality because the laws treat that very differently so from an economic perspective I actually thought that was like that's what that real movement was about was about economic prosperity then actual equality so I look at it first from that marriage equality lens and I go okay great so like economically we're in a better position we've ever been right however we still have not done a really good job on the the BT and the eyes right like so the L and a G I think the thing we have to always remember about the L and a G is that most like many L and G people can pass right like you can you can just like you know if you're like a flamboyant gay guy you can you know put on your less flamboyant outfit that day and then no one will know that you get if you are a very butch lesbian you can put on your less butch lesbian outfit that day and you can pass but we have not done a good job of the BT Q I A's all those folks and their ability to actually live harmoniously in this country and so that's really where I'm I'm really focusing at like I I don't really and not really big deal to me that corporations support the L the pride because economically it makes sense right like you know this group has some of the the biggest economic power in the entire country why would you not you know be cool with them right but when it comes to the folks who do not ascribe to normal gender presentation that do not you know love in the same way I have been to include my like polyamorous man right and when they do not love in the same way and those people are not given the same rights or abilities to kind of navigate this country that's the big issue and so that's where I actually think that we haven't gone nearly far enough like we're still so far away from where we really need to be as a country because you know it's it's not safe for you know intersects people not safe for trans gender people is not safe for bisexual people right you know it's not safe for them to kind of just navigate and go in this country on a regular basis and then and these are also the groups of people who when you think about ERG so like when you think about from a corporate perspective there are far less ERGs for those groups of people like when people talk about like a pride ERG that is literally you know that does not usually encompass or put forward the issues there are are you know impacting you know those folks those folks right like they're really talking about like the much more general like LG like I just want to have you know be safe as an L or G person right and so I definitely think that like you know we're the very nation stages of this movement right I also will say that I absolutely hate that it's LGBTQ plus right because the reality is you're putting people's sexual orientation with their gender right and those are two very different categories of people right like there's completely different things that people deal with when you think about that and so really like what I would really say would be a great first step is to start to decouple that right people have like you know out you know gender identities plus right with being one group of people and then sexuality would be in another group and then that would be a much better way to kind of move forward with this work than how we continue to try to put them all together yeah that totally makes sense and I almost think that like it's It's very, like kind of impressive to me how even, even like up to now, like, you know, there's been enough coordination to kind of define all these terms, like as a movement, 'cause we had somebody on our podcast who was talking about, you know, fat activism, right? And like in that space, I feel like it's a way less defined, even just like how can we get on the same page of like what to call people, right? 'Cause I don't think that they're kind of far along as the kind of the, you know, the queer movement, LGBT movement. So like, I think that that is something that is like really difficult to try to just, 'cause there's no like one person who's kind of like directing like the, you know, this is what we're gonna call, you know, different groups of people, right? It's kind of, it's a very organic thing, right? - Yeah. - Yeah, and this one's really interesting, right? Because like something I always kind of joke about is that even someone who's like really steeped into this work, every single day I find out about a new term that I do not know about, right? And then I'm just like, I'm like, you know what, but it makes sense. I was like, you know, as soon as I like read it and I see the definition, I'm like, that totally makes sense and that should exist. And so like, you know, so the good thing about this group, this like large umbrella that we're talking about, is there's so many people who are doing the work to kind of try to readily define it. But because like as you kind of go down that umbrella, the group gets smaller and smaller, like the funnel gets smaller and smaller, so there's less people in each stage. And so then that's why it's so important for folks who are at the top of the funnel who are most easily recognizable to also advocate for those other groups, you know? And again, you know, as someone who's trans non-binary and I also identify as a lesbian, like it's very important to me, especially when I think about trans men and trans women. 'Cause like for instance, when I go into a room, depending on what I'm wearing that day, most people don't actually, you know, question my identity. They don't give me a hard time or anything. But I know that like a lot of trans men, especially people who are first, you know, trans men and trans women who are first, you know, kind of like going on their transition journey, they don't always represent in the way that they want. Like I love being ambiguous, like that's part of like my charm, right? But for someone who actually wants to be an identity and find in that way, like, you know, trying to educate people to like even stop looking at the surface level, right? You know, it's like why are you looking at this person and making an assumption? Like instead, like, you know, meet the human, you know, like that's one of the things that I try to do and I try to focus on things I encourage my teams on as well. It's like meet the human first, let the human tell you who they are and then you can kind of proceed instead of trying to prescribe whatever society those norms are onto that individual. - Yeah, and I think it's surprisingly difficult for people because it's so strong, this impulse to be like, I have to put you in some kind of categorization for me to even understand how to interact or like, you know, have interaction with you, right? - We don't like ambiguity. - We hate it. - We don't like to not understand. - Yes, we love boxes. - Yeah. - And in some cases, you know, some cases boxes are useful, but for categorizing kinds of people, it seems like maybe not. - Well, but like the great example to me is, when most people see me as a black person, they are gonna have very specific ideas of what they think I'm gonna talk like, what my opinions are gonna be, all this other type of stuff. Then I open my mouth and like, people are usually just like, whoa, right? What guys and whether that's right or not, they're like, whoa, right? And if it's that simple when a black person, then it's probably even more, you know, simple when you think about, you know, gender variances, right? Like, you cannot make an assumption on what someone looks like on how they are gonna talk or they're gonna act. Because the other thing about it is like, I talk a very specific way, but like, I am so black, he black, black, black. And if you catch me on the wrong day and you talk about me in the wrong way, like all that's gonna come out in a way, and especially a Mississippi Southern country way that you were not ready for, right? And so that's why it's so important to like, just like, just like again, just meet the human because like, it's really, it's very interesting because the characteristics that we have don't really always describe properly who we really are. - Totally. And I'm curious since you mentioned, like, you know, your, your frown like the South, and like, how do your community, like your community and your parents kind of like, respond to your kind of non-binaryness and like, queerness? Has it been like a struggle? Like, that's my assumption, but I don't know. Like, maybe it was actually totally easy for you, you know, like, I have an idea. - Yeah, no, so, so my dad's a Baptist medicine. So like, it's really funny because when I changed all of my stuff to be, here's just like, just so you know, I'm gonna keep calling you Bethany. And I was like, I made the assumption that you were gonna keep calling me Bethany. Like, like, that's literally, like, this is literally our relationship. Like, you know, there definitely like the, they actually are probably much more vocal about my tattoos and having tattoos I have been about my gender identity. It's kind of just one of those things. We just don't talk about, you know, obviously, you know, the people who are closest to me, and not to say that any of my family's not close to me, but the ones who like, if I really had a crisis, I would call first. They're all very respectful of my identity and how I wanna be referred to and things like that. But to be truthful, like, you know, other family members, you know, they never, like, I literally am the first of everything for them, right? You know, and even from a TV show perspective, they don't even watch TV, like, most of the TV shows they have, like none of them watch posts. Like, they're like, I was like, oh, there's this new show post and they were like, what are you talking about? They're like, it's not on NBC or ABC. And I was like, I know it's on FX. You gotta get up, FX is cool. Try FX, okay? You know, that type of conversation. So like, you know, it's definitely just one of those, like, kind of, you know, don't tell, you know, like, we all acknowledge it. To be truthful, I was also like the first lesbian on both sides of my family. So that for them, they were like, we went really far for that, you know, that's as far as we're gonna go. - Yeah. - You know, and we know you're gonna have kids and something gonna be biologically related to some of them aren't and we're cool with that too. And I was just like, you know, honestly, y'all have gone so far compared to where I thought you were gonna go. So, you know, we're just gonna continue to ignore this. And also, this is why all of my legal paperwork is very specific and none of you are in control of anything. (laughing) So that, you know. So there's something that's happened to me, the people who know me best are the ones who actually get to make these choices. - Yep, that's honestly very smart. I really, as somebody who is kind of like in the, kind of funeral death space, I always think that it is so important for people to like figure out all of that stuff. Basically, as soon as possible. - Yeah. - Exactly. - Yeah, I was, I tell everyone, I'm like, as soon as you get 18 and you have a choice, make sure you document it because, you know, even if you have a perfect situation, you'd be shocked at how different some people's ideas are. Like, so for instance, like my wife and I, we both want to be cremated, but we both know both of our families are not in cremation. Right, so like if we didn't have documentation, we both know that our families would just do whatever they wanted. Like, because that's their values. - Yeah, if you don't, if you don't set out what you want to be done with you or like with you, all of your stuff after you die, like people are gonna make the choices based on what they want. Right, and what's gonna make them feel better. - Right. Did you come out while you were still like at home or did you come out after you had kind of like been more exposed to kind of like queer people and like, you know, all kinds of like all that stuff, like outside of that context? - Yeah, no, I didn't come out to college. And I will say like, so again, like so I wanted to be the model minority in high school, right? And so that meant that like I had no interest in dating, I had no interest in like drinking or like honestly doing anything besides studying all the time, working so I could like, you know, pay for college and then getting into college. And so it wasn't until college that kind of took a breath and I was just like, oh, wait, I think I like girls. Let's figure this out. And so that was a great opportunity. And because like a lot of people are like, well, why didn't you come out in high school? And I was like, honestly, it did not even cross my mind to be attracted to one high school. Like it just didn't. And so it took me into the college and actually knowing that like, okay, well, I basically made it. Like I am where I needed to be. Like because a lot of the people I grew up with, you know, they all, I mean, most of them didn't make it out of the self, right? Like, you know, a lot of them, you know, ended up in dead and jobs or they got pregnant in like high school. And so like I had this example of like what I didn't want to be. And so I just focused on not doing that. And I came out my second semester freshman year. And actually remember I called my mom. And I was like, mom, like I was like so upset. I was like, I think I'm gay. Like it's so terrible. But why? And she was like, baby, I just want to stay. And I was like, what are you talking about? She was like, I've known you regained since you were like 12. And you saw the Ellen special and you started crying because they were mean to the gay people. And I was just like, I was like, mom, it would have been nice for you to tell me this. And she was like, you were going to figure it out at some point. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I feel like you're going to be weird for someone to tell you your gay. Like I do feel like your mom kind of made the right choice in a certain way. Right? I get it. I get it. I really was. Like I was such a nerd that I was like, it would have been helpful for me just to kind of understand that because then I would have been less worried about all the boys. So I would just say, well, boys, I don't want to date you. Not because I'm afraid of being pregnant, but because I realize now that I'm gay. Because I actually don't fuck with you. Yeah. (upbeat music) - B, thank you so much for sitting with us today. I really, really enjoyed, like, especially talking about, like, mixing of, like, quote, unquote, "for-profit stuff," like, "for-profit business measures with not-profit stuff," 'cause like, like, it's something that I've been thinking about for literally years. So I really appreciate your perspective on that. What have you been doing to try and stay sane during quarantine? - Yeah, so I've been making lists, right? Like, so I'm a planner. So I've been, like, planning every trip that we're gonna take after this, making sure I understand all the different logistics that we can, like, really optimize. So that's kind of been my main focus. And so right now, for the first year, we're gonna stay in the US. So there's, like, a whole bunch of places in the US that we're gonna go to. But then after that, we're planning on hitting, like, all of Asia. - Nice. (laughs) - Nice. I, like, a couple days ago, did some listed, like, reorganizing stuff. I just, like, reorganized all of my favorite albums from the last, like, four or five years, and just spent, like, an hour of my workday doing that. (laughs) Cool. Well, is there anything that you want to plug before we get out of here? - Well, if you ever want to find out anything that I'm doing or the things that I'm passionate about, you can find me at B Pagels Miner. So that's B-P-A-G-E-L-S-M-I-N-O-R across all of social media. And that's also my website. I also love to promote, like, local organizations in the Bay Area. You'll see lots of power, brown health, lots of Y-W-C-A. And really, just any organization is doing some cool stuff that I think people should know about. So if you're interested, definitely follow me. And I will love to kind of clue you into some of the great work that people are doing. - Cool. And we'll throw your tag in our Instagram posts and in the show notes and all that. So, and we'll try to make it really easier for everyone to find you. And to piggyback onto that, you can find us at @imthevillainpod. That is our Twitter, our Instagram, our Gmail. If you have any questions for Isabel or me or B, if you hate it something that we said or something that we said, let us know. Otherwise, bye.