The Quartz Crises: The Battle That Redefined Luxury Timekeeping

You know, remember there was a time when Poliesta was considered really fashionable and cool? In the same way, having a court swatch was, do you think they were looking to embrace it or. I think they were terrified of this. But it cost 450,000 yen, which you could have bought a car with. Yes, so it was very expensive. Seriously, people were predicting that we would be colonizing the moon. Yes. And people believed that. Yeah. And here we are sitting in the late 19th century, you and me. Not on the moon. Not on the moon, not on the moon, it's the last time I look. If you just had an automatic movement in your watch, you were sort of king of the world. It was an 87750. There's been made by a kind of chimpanzee or something like that. If you were to get a court swatch, they were what you get. Hello and welcome to the luxury dispatch. The podcast that reveals the refined and the rare items and stories that makes up the luxury industry. I'm Tom Chamberlain. And today we're going to be talking about how in the 1970s, the Swiss watch industry that Dorrick Column of the Luxury World was very nearly bought to an absolute and irreversible close. It is of course the court's crisis. This topic requires some scholarly conversations. So I've turned once again to my friend, the Herodotus of Herology, Nick Faulks. Nick. You can't argue with that. I can't say how long I spend over that one. No, but it's brilliant, it's brilliant. But I mean, I forget which is the Dorrick and the Ionic and the Corinthian. Dorrick is the strongest of the columns. Okay. Corinthian is much decorated. Yes. Very good. And the entabitour. I think to be honest, I think every column name of the watch industry because it's, I think the watch industry allows itself to kind of be both decorative, strong, financially. You know, I think it's interesting because it's always talking about pillars in marketing as well. I hate that. Do you know what quite? I mean, as you can see, you can do marketing and you say, which poll, I know you've got pillars, but which ones do you have? I've got one. What's the one that's kind of slightly Bombay? You know the one. Oh, you do. I mean, we need Moe. We need Moe. That's for another. The Coffinatorium, yes. Exactly. Okay. Anyway, back to business. So the court's crisis. I think there needs to be a little bit of background on why Switzerland had so much control over the industry in the first place. My understanding is that well, well, two was quite a big contributor to that. And then come the 60s. Obviously, technology was racing away. There was the space race. Everyone was trying to make new things, more accurate things. There was also going on with science technology. So the natural progression that I guess with timekeeping was what happened with the courts. Clock, which at the time, the first one was sort of the size of a fridge. So the journey from that to coming onto the risk was ultimately something of an arms race, wasn't it? Well, it was. I mean, arms races are very often news term. You had a number of things going on in the late 60s. I mean, there were the silks, Hoya was casing the self-winding chronograph. And you've got Seiko really in Japan was making the running with what they were doing. I mean, they were brilliant. They are brilliant. Even now, I mean, even now, they're still, you know, they've got these little Japanese known sort of fiddling around, making sort of things that are kind of invisible to the eye. Yes. And clearly my eyes. But in conventional watch, to timekeeping with mechanical watches, there isn't allowance of what, is it two seconds a day that is, is, is, is, is, I don't know, I just can't say that they are upgrading the chronometric standards. They've been upgraded this year and I don't quite know what to, but they were so easy that almost if you're a donkey, make a watch and put it in there. And such and such is the modern technology of making parts and stuff like that, that anybody can get it. Plus, it was tested in the move. I just the movement, not the, not the case, not the strap. So the watch would not be fiat blow, whatever they'd say. So do you think the, the excitement around the courts coming into the market was, was a point of accuracy or price point? It was hugely expensive to start with. Okay. And, um, I mean, hugely because it was a novelty. The shower of Iran put himself down, the pulsar, we get on the pulsar time, we can be on tell you about the shower. But, um, yes, I think it was really persistent because that was still the time when we used the watch for the alleged stated purpose. It wasn't, it wasn't necessarily a vehicle of status conferral. It wasn't necessarily, um, a piece of communication, which is now in the Orpisa jewelry. It actually was a functioning object that before we had my butt telephones or that electric lock up there, you know, you had the church bells or, and you had your wristwatch. And I mean, you would, people would, you know, it's hard to imagine the life before information technology. Yeah, but it wasn't just a sort of gizmo. It was a, it was a tool of everyday life. Yeah, okay. And with courts coming in, brands that we consider now to be kind of the great masters of mechanical watchmaking were buying in on the acts, weren't they? They were like passive for leap. Everybody put into it. I mean, there was something called the CEH, the Santa Electronic Oralogia, which was a sort of consortium of brands getting together to develop, uh, court technology. Five brands, including, including Rolex, went to the technical agent in Zurich and got them to start, that was in '61, I think, to start researching possible things. I mean, often we sort of, we sort of simply characterized the court's crisis. First of all, it's a quite court's crisis, not as a court, not as the court era. We call it a court's crisis. Yeah. Um, in Switzerland, they were already very, very well aware that courts could be miniaturized and put on the wrist. Well, at least they were preparing for that, preparing for that eventuality. And do you think that they were always wanted to fight against it? Is it, or whether they wanted to embrace it in the sense of, you know, remember there was a time when, um, uh, polyester was considered really fashionable and cool. In the same way, having a court's watch was, do you think they were looking to embrace it or just, you try to kind of, I think they were terrified. I could, yeah, terrified of this. Um, those, those who actually knew what they were doing, because also, I, I runically, the early 70s were a boom period for Swiss mechanical watches. Some, some of the businesses did the best figures in 1971-72. Yeah. Because courts were still experimental, you know, it was still, they, I mean, you were talking about the shake shake of Estron, weren't you? Yes. So it was, it was in 1969, the astronaut, they did have a Christmas thing. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And, and a hundred gold, it was a gold case, but it cost, uh, 450,000 yen, which would have been able, you could have bought a car with it. Yeah. So I mean, that's, that's what you have. And then also the, the beta 21, which is the caliber that the CEH came out with. I think, I mean, I don't know enough about, I know, enough about these things to be sure, but it was, it was a kind of, it was a sort of hit hybrid. So it sort of had a, it, it, it's a bit of a mechanical watchmaking in there in a big battery, in a, in a quarter-regulator. And so it, so it, so it, so it, so it, so it was a watchmaker's way of doing it, rather than a kind of technical, if you understand, a sort of high-tech way of doing it. Well, that was part of the journey for the course crisis, wasn't it? Is that a lot of the original makes were making the, uh, anal, watches that look like watches, that were analogue with courts movements, rather than, um, what would come later, which was the digital. Yes, I mean, I think, um, when you, I mean, even Rolex did the digital, I'm not a digital, they didn't LED, which, which was brilliant, which, which had pushes on it, where you, where you start, we press to push it and the hands, these little LED things, dots, dots, LED dots, come together to form the handshape. So wherever you are on the dial, you press the button and these red hands appear. Oh, they would appear, oh, that's cool. That was just, but that's just a prototype. It only made five of those and thank goodness they didn't go any further, but they did go make the oyster courts. They made the oyster courts, but they started with the B221 in 1970, which I really wasn't. And what's the oyster courts and, and the, uh, equivalents and other brands basically, a, were trying to kind of contend against what's, it was, it was a Rolex, I mean, it's sort of a high-negose, very adamant about. He, he realized, I mean, after having gone, spent 10 years with this C.E.H. thing, and having this movement that was, I think, Yager used it to make some watches, PatEx certainly did, you know, it made those kind of TV screen watches, obviously, Rolex. They, they were, they were, but you didn't want to be sharing a common pool of movements, you know, if you wanted it to be a Rolex movement. So in '77, he brought out the oyster courts. Okay, and that now is, even those court swathees, is a kind of cult, what? The, the day date is, is the one to get. No, I think it's actually the, the, the B221, the earlier one is the one to get. Okay. Which was, which was, because the, because the also the movement was kind of not, not, not round, it was sort of oblong. Yeah. So they had to make the case a bit bigger, because they were, they were, they were even thinking, I don't know, they might have to make an oblong watch, it wouldn't, wouldn't they be waterproof because of the corners, or at least in, in those days. And it, so they just, they're meant to shove it in into something that looked like a Rolex, because it, but it was sort of, it was, if you see it, you see the difference. It's much chunkier. Yeah. And then by the '70s, they make their own, they got their own proprietary caliber, and they released that. And yes, you're right, it is very fashionable. And also it has, had a philip this year because of the launch of the landweller, which took a lot of those characteristics. Yeah. And with the integrated bracelet. Yeah. And brilliantly. And back to your, mentioning about LEDs and stuff, Pulse-Up. Pulse-Up Time Computer. Hamilton is Hamilton. Yeah. I mean, this is, this is one of the oldest watchmaking companies in the world. American, America was a huge market for cheap watches. Yeah. And Hamilton was famous in the 19th century for making railway watches. The first LED watch, you remember the beginning of, what's it, "Living That Die?" He's "Living That Die." And he's got the electronic watch that, that gives him the time. The first, when you first see him, he's in bed with this woman. He's got the Pulse-Up Time Computer on his wrist. Yes. And it was a huge, huge, status symbol. Yeah. Because I'm in the shower of Iran, put himself down for one. Pahaliyah, that high, that's the last he put himself down for one. I think the president forward was seen testifying in the, whatever, whatever it was about, Nixon's, Nixon's pardon. He was seen, he was seen wearing one. Yeah. And it was, it was the watch of the, of the hour. And what's interesting is that there weren't, there weren't, I think it's like the battery leaked sometimes. So at the factory, if you had a burned wrist, it was a mark of honor because you'd actually at some stage worn one of these great things. Great to have. And this was having real world effects back in Switzerland because the people being laid off, jobs are being really affected back in Switzerland. Well, again, it's not really a simple thing of old technology being sort of superseded. That's an element of it. The Bretton Woods agreement came to an end in 1971 or something, I think. Could you explain that just for-- It was just that the gold standard-- so you had fixed exchange rates. So you had-- you put it on the spot, I'm not an economist. But so you had a dollar was worth 4.2 francs. I think it was or something. At this time, all these things were kept. The dollar was the gold standard. It didn't float. And these exchange rates were fixed. But the war in Vietnam was costing so much. You took it off that. And it sank. The dollar went like a spanner down the lift shaft. So by the end of that year, I think the same dollar was buying you 1.5 Swiss francs, which meant that your watch was about three times more expensive. And also the gold prices at the end of-- I don't forget the gold rush at the end of the '70s again. The prices-- not unlike now, we're getting sky high. So that again was another-- I mean, it's another thing to bear in mind for their costs. And also the speed of which Saker was growing, because by 1977, Saker was the largest producer of what was by revenue. So it was $700 million on a production of 18 million watches. And so they were bringing a huge amount of money. I mean, do you think people cared less about the prestige of owning a watch at the time? What was really pushing people to buy courts rather than-- Because it was new. And because-- Don't forget, it's like having white goods. You upgrade them from time to time. I mean, watches weren't so much of a thing, which was great, because I was buying old watches. Everyone I was a kid, just wearing them. I'd been them when they stopped, you know. No, I mean, I think it's slightly more difficult than that. I think it's that people wanted the latest thing, but also it became very rapidly the price tumbled. I mean, from being sort of-- there was one that was $5,000 only. They tumbled. And then it became a race to the bottom, which is what favored those who had stuck with mechanical watch making, which wasn't very many. This-- it became every day technology, because it easily replicated. You didn't need to be a sort of trained to do a sort of grand sonnery or something like that, because you could just put things to the back. Change the bad thing. You're done. So you actually have heel bars instead of-- So you have heel bars and watch repairs. Yeah. Which meaning watch repairs, meaning-- Could you-- then might tell me on for me, please. Yeah. And I don't think it's going to happen. You pick it at least, sir. Yes, yes, yes, yes. No, that guy's actually quite good. Yeah, he is good. That he's the exception of proof the rule. Yes. But-- And the guys in West field are very good as well. Yes, so yes, I've heard that. Max uses them as his-- This is a good tip. This is after sales service. Yeah, very good. Because I know that, certainly at the time, things like the synthesizer and just new variant-- or modern variants of old things. So obviously, the synthesizer with piano. And I just sort of wondered whether with that-- everybody being kind of obsessed with new and sort of cutting edge, sci-fi was becoming a holy thing. But you know, 70s is when Marvel was coming out super-heroes. We were going to be living on the moon, don't you? Yeah. There was a song by the three degrees. And they-- in the French connection, the first one. There's three degrees of singing in a bar, where the-- where the Popeye dog goes in. Yeah. And they're singing. Everybody's going to go to the moon. Everybody's going to live on the moon. And I mean, this was-- this was a real thing. I mean, this was people-- serious people were predicting that we would be colonizing the moon. Yes. Not something. Not something. Not something. Not something. So I think that there was a sort of faith in technology. I mean, there were such scientific advances being made that they were going to eradicate disease, for example. Yes. All disease. Yeah. Which didn't happen. I didn't happen. I mean, there's a lot-- there's an alternative-- there's a whole alternative future out there that we didn't take. No. So I'm someone-- I would hate to live on the moon, I have to say. No, I didn't. It's a good long way to get to the moon. But anyway, you're right. There was this expectation. And it was a time when you was new. It was exciting. It was different. And then it became very commonplace very quickly. And what you had in both Rolex and Patek were bosses who were slightly different in their approaches. Heiniger felt that there would always be a market for-- they would make the mechanical watch as good as they could, because they would always be a market for it. Patek Philippe worked from the assumption that there would always be people wanting to buy expensive collectible things. And they would make them. And they came up with both with two different calibers, mechanical. Everybody else was investing in quartz, like crazy. Trying to beat the mechs, beat the mechs, beat the mechs, and beat the Americans and the Japanese at their own game, which is just stupid. Because also, the structure of the Swiss watch industry was such that you didn't have specialists. I mean, Rolex is a specialist, which is why it's a virus. So you had everybody offering everything. And ladies watchers. And they couldn't focus on one thing. So this-- and they got picked off. This is why so many of them went out of business. But where was I-- oh, yes. The Patek did the caliber 240 in 1977, which was a beautiful planetary rotor-- all of the automatic movement. It's still-- it's a beautiful movement. It was still in use today. But it made the-- I forget. I forget. But the Patek calendar launched in 1985. It's very important. It uses the 240 with a Patek calendar, Patek calendar module on top. And then Rolex did the 3,000 series, which was a huge upgrade on the 1,500 series. And by '77, Heinegger was to say that-- I think this is one of the things we're not sending or watch we're sending or Rolex. And that says it all. Yeah. He realized that it was a gamble. But he realized that mechanical watch wasn't object that didn't necessarily fulfill-- didn't necessarily have to fulfill it's stated function of telling the time it could be other things as well. And this is before status conferring was a dirty word. He realized this. And he made the watches to be as good as he possibly could in the basis that they could be also repaired. And they're very good on longevity. And that means having something is very easy to operate. I mean, it's all about ease of access and stuff like that. Yes. So they design the movements like that. But nevertheless, the expectation was that Japan was basically going to put the support of the participants. Japan was going to eat the world at that time. If you remember-- Yes, I do remember. But the Japanese were buying up all the luxury goods they could find in Paris. They were just buying the world. And they were going to conquer the world. And even until the early '90s, there was a spate of films about the strength of the Japanese in the movie industry and things like that. And then suddenly, they went into stagnation for a generation. But so the Japanese were a really dominant force. There was much of a stereotype as the oil rich Arab of the '70s. You know, the Japanese are coming quickly. And they hired Japanese speaking shop assistants and stuff like that. And they would bust them around to shop. And they do Europe like a shopping mall, basically. Yeah. I think what I'm trying to establish is a sense that there was a genuine jeopardy. A jeopardy, I think, many people thought that it was over. I mean, you have a lost generation. I mean, there were big classes of one, two, or three people. You know, there's a whole generation of watchmakers that basically don't exist. Yeah. I mean, now that's very different. But I remember when I started writing about watches in the early '90s, was it the '80s? Like, I remember them anyway. It might be in the later-- '87s when you started. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then-- Let's go with that. But then you still-- I mean, then you still had-- I mean, then if you just had an automatic movement in your watch, you were sort of king of the world. It was the '77s, '50s. So slight being apprenticed to a coachwork builder for a horse and a horse and carriage. You know what I mean? So you have very interesting people like François Paul Jean, Frank Muller, who was-- I mean, these slightly eccentric characters, who had a real passion-- I mean, for FPG, John, it's 18th century watchmaking. And same sort of route for Frank, actually. He was a restore and repair of old watches. And then he went on to become the master of complications. And I mean, he was like the rich and meal of his day. But they were the exceptions. But they were placed quite well when the pendulum swung back after a very long time. Their eccentricity suddenly became mainstream. They didn't move. It's just tastes moved. Well, also, this is probably a good time to bring in the person who kind of made the pendulum start to swing the other way, which was Nicholas Hayek. Nicholas Hayek, yes. He's a genius. I mean, he didn't care for me very much. But I can't do-- I got that cannot be true. No, no, no. He would tell me, you would tell me, Mr. Faulk's, I'm better known than the president of Switzerland. People cross the road to shake my hand and congratulate me on me. And I said, that's wonderful, Mr. Hayek. But I-- I'll get to the end of this story. And people might understand why. Well, because he was brought in-- He was a management consultant. Because he was basically brought in because the Swiss watch industry, which had been massively backed by a lot-- there were at least five Swiss banks who bisced to fire money. And also the dividends from watch companies were really high. OK, OK, well that explains a lot. No, no, no. It was sort of-- do you want to go in? Seven percent? [BLANK_AUDIO] were getting 18% okay so I mean the so there was a lot of it's impetus it's also much it's so much broader thing than just oh it's the new technology coming in yeah everybody else it's much more nuanced than that okay so Nicholas hired came in and his stick was what exactly I mean what did he what why did they choose him to be the person to come up with I think he basically saved the industry he emalgamated he emalgamated the industrial side and then the and then the brand side yeah it's not unlike the situation of an avana with cigars is that you have the brands and you have the manufacturing yeah but it's sort of it's not it's not one size fits all but it's it's separated so that's but that was the same year that citizen created the exe gold which was at the time the world's thinnest watch and then Seiko released a watch the same year which was about as double as there is who twice is then sorry what's the one I think I think Frank's in natural war and broke that was the delirium four which was 0.98 millimeters which as you say didn't last because that but that I think remains the world's thinnest ever watch and so as tries Switzerland might or the Swiss industry might they were struggling to keep up with whatever and they threw down Japan was like right no this is this is this is what's interesting about patrick and Rolex and that's why that they asked there's a reason why they're patrick and Rolex today is that they decided that they weren't going to compete yeah they were they were they they started I mean you bit of a mix metaphor but they were playing a different game and they would choose the field upon which those battles were fought so they they said they said we'll no they didn't say we'll let them have there we let them have hyper accuracy but they were not they were not in competition with them or not only only in jafar as there's you you're going for that piece of sort of human real estate you want to put it on the wrist you're competing for the man's wrist but you're having a totally different proposition not based on accuracy yeah but not based entirely on position rather okay so when hiac was trying to conceive of what of the solution to this problem he came up with this idea of the delirium boggare it basically a used plastic to keep costs low and it the problem he had was that he had Tomco gone to the bank so many times that they were like we weren't back you on this one but hiac then was like you know what I'm going to go speak to the back and they'll back me and they did and then it was released not as the delirium boggare but as the swat watch and so 18 this would be 18 1983 what's interesting about that is they use the base plate was the was the case back of the watch yes exactly and so they were to it was all an operation of trying to make the watch as as sort of cost effective I guess possible and it was sort of an overnight success wasn't it yeah I mean the swat is a phenomenon it that totally changed the market and there was a retro field to many of them but it was it was everywhere it suddenly it sort of changed the game and I mean he joking aside he really was a genius and he really did save the low end the low end and basically disappeared but he saved a lot of the industrial capacity by doing things like that well that was the interesting thing is that the the Swiss watch industry which is regarded today certainly as a kind of high price point industry yes was preserved I guess by a low cost item I think I think that you know the the emergence of the swat watch was as a as a phenomenon kind of started bringing the Swiss watch industry out of its sort of slump but ultimately the ingenuity of mechanical watchmaking needed to kind of be the proof of the pudding to keep it going I think math would be well I mean I think I don't still survive off the back of the swat watch I mean I mean I don't I think I think it was it was also the the high end of it if you look at if you look at pattec for example it was the calibre 89 that was 1989 this I think it was Max Hula was the created was the was the was a director he went he went to Philip Stern in 1980 and said how are we gonna we're gonna celebrate the 150th anniversary and instead of saying and he said I said I'm gonna suggest we make the big the greatest competitive pocket watch ever which is basically 19th century solution to a 20th century problem yeah and instead of telling me to fuck off out of his office Philips Philips and said yes go ahead and do it and they had this team of four people making a making effectively what was a sort of 19th century watch and then it came out this grand super the most complicated watch in the world at the time then you see things like blonde pack coming on with beaver for example yes chocolate beaver is also a very important part of this he's a very important man in in in many ways not least in that he sort of got this intuitive sort of gift for seeing what see he sees stuff other people can't report they bought the brand for 20th thousand Swiss francs or something like that because blonde pan it is is in theory the oldest of those of the brands I mean it's all to the vassal concert how I think they had a break it had a break they all had a break apart from vassal I think vassal on vassal on is the anyone that continuously I think so yes that was owned by shake your money at one point wait vassal yeah okay so I mean you know you've got you've got also these these other players coming in you know like a cram oj bought into tag hey it was technically it was it was higher before they became technique avant guard higher yeah let's go back to be there yeah so what did he do that was particularly important for the revival of the industry he bought blonde pack which was that was a brand I mean you know it did it did the 50 fathoms which was a very good diving watch that was roughly co-evil with the with the summer in a he was great friends actually we generate the marketing director at Rolex but what Jean Claude did was he made it into a brand of complications so he did these six complications the six sort of pillars of it the six Doric ionic currency and you know whatever come for circle and then you made this made the because because blonde had been sleeping during the quartz era or had fallen to sleep before the quartz era he was able to say there has never been a quartz blonde they never will be and this was this was the sort of rallying cry it was and he was he was amazing he he he would take his awful I mean I wouldn't want it to work for him in those days they took he took his team running at sort of five in the morning and then and then he said he said then he said he said I missed a bon pack came to me in a dream last night and told me I had to do this minute repeater and things like that and and they bought they bought they found a picture in the flea market in Paris in clean and core I think it was and they they said that's Mr. Blomper banging on the wall I mean he was he was brilliant and the moon phase was the moon phases were very popular in the 80s it was quite it was quite a nice nice little visual complication and for some reason they were popular you couldn't afford gold so he made them in steel and so Marcus Margulese who wanted to buy a gold version said I want to go and he said we can't do that we don't have any gold and he said well look up advancing the money for 50 these watches with the moon phase and that's how he I mean he would go in a camper van to the barzill watch fair as was and operate that he'd go and shower in the station and then I mean he so he was he was running it as a sort of you know it was a complete smirror show the hustle was real yes the hustle was real but it was actually it was it was a real thing as well yeah I mean Blomper was a contender in those days for it was it was like it was like a kind of mini version of Brege because Brege at the time when it was when it was owned by the show it was shown me brothers and it was owned by Vesco Brege was again a proper was it was sort of something you could actually put against patteck instead of if you're customer in a shop you would actually maybe ham and harb between the two yeah and then joker people but then would go on to Jean clobby with two blow and LVMH watches yes but he went he went to don't forget you went to oh you went to omega for a while yes only be be installed the James Bond franchise making it an omega thing they often they came to him offering him a certain sum of money for that and he said I'll pay you more and they say what and they said well you but you give me more and you have more I mean you know there's that terrible line in one of the one of the James Bond films sort of where she's where I think it's either green says oh yeah you know you would wear an omega very nice very classic I mean he goes he goes he goes you know we went to eaten and would you know wear expensive watches Rolex he goes Amiga and she goes beautiful yeah isn't it man I think I think I was told that was spontaneous but where where's courts today in the market because I can't think of a specific industry are you the Swiss watch industry or another another kind that has come so close to collapsing that has not only managed to revive itself but then thrive because whilst we you and I we've always spoken about you know issues with kind of you know revenue in revenue out or whatever yeah at the same time the perception of the Swiss watch industry is extraordinarily high these days people in terms of aspiration and you know market value well happy perceive it it's extraordinarily well respected very high so I can't think of anyone else who's pulled that off not to that degree although you could argue that some of the British car industry is still very desirable they rose rice fine but and but not but it's not it's not the same thing yeah but I would agree actually I mean I think it's I think it is the most amazing laser in comeback really yeah it's something that I found myself I mean I wrote about why stuff running about watches because they just basically I liked them you know and suddenly then I found them then I then I sort of suddenly found that I and what I liked is swung into focus. And that was it really. I mean, I just, I didn't, I'm part of me slightly annoyed that it became popular because I liked having, I liked being a sort of a little eccentricity. - Coming into yourself. - But what the court's crisis enabled was a lot of people, we haven't talked about Alan Dominique Pera, for example. It made it, it made a lot of people to buy these brands. So Gina McEluso at Girard Perriga, for example. He was a lovely, lovely man, highly intelligent. He bought that company. I mean, I don't know what exactly financial arrangements were. But he bought that company and then ran it, and it ran it as a one man band, sold it to caring. But they were dates and they were, the raw Schneider was at Ulyssenada, he did the same thing. Talk about Pera quickly. - Pera, and then Pera, the sort of inventor of modern luxury in my opinion, one of the inventor modern luxury, they, they're Cartier. He did, they did, they must the Cartier, which were the sort of, the, the, the swatch of Cartier, if you like. They brought you in. He, he is a genius. And he was one of these people. - They're great watches, people so really wonder. I mean, I know, you know, and you know, size of a poster stamp. - Yeah, they're nice, they're nice, they're nice. I mean, they are, they are, and they are, they are, they are, they are, they are, they are, they are a thing on their own, as well as being a cheaper version of a tank, they're, they're the thing on their own. So, I mean, they were, they, they, it opened up lots of opportunities for people to do things differently. So you had these entrepreneurs running, you know, you could still in those days, you couldn't do it now, because there's some money involved, it would be too great, but you could buy a brand and you could sort of set it up. I mean, it would happen with Breitling really, the Schneider's got it, they got it and it was, it was a, it was a shuttered factory. They, they restarted, you, you, as an individual, you could do things like that. Now you need the backing of a fund or something like that, because it's just, the, the game is the, whatever, the, I don't play Perque, is it the ante or something like that? - I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, is there a, is there a backgammon analysis? - Yeah, yeah, you got a high double, you got, you got a double, a 64 or something like that. And I mean, so it's, it's a, and you, and you got, so 10 quid in your pocket. I mean, so you can't actually do what these guys did. And that was a very interesting discreet period. I would say from around about 1990 to about 2000, when, when you could, when people could do this, they could buy things that were, and, and make them into proper brand. - Yeah. - And I get, I, I, I, I, - It's because, I mean, I, I, I, I, I, also, Tura Perrego had been all quartz. - They, yeah, they, yes, they, - And they actually set the, they, they set the standard of VPH as well. But do you think that if it wasn't this, these sort of conglomerates that were taking, do you think they would end up having the budgets to create? Because I know that you'll try and avoid admitting to this, but I know that you get excited about a brand new style of minute repeater, or, you know, those small details that, you know, watch, fans are just really drawn to, and you, you love that. But a lot of the time, it's always a gamble to create things like that. And so, do you think that, by having these conglomites, by having these sort of, you know, the, the sort of bureaucracy behind watchmakers, the, do you think if they weren't there, watchmen wouldn't have time to create, and push the boundaries a bit? - Well, I think you're, I think you're right. I mean, I, I'm being deliberately romantic about these things. I mean, I think that it has become a business, and you, you need to apply business, business practices to it. - Yeah. - I, I, my, my thing is that you have to balance that with what it is you're doing. And I mean, you're, I mean, you know, I mean, it was all this young clever marketing and we're not selling watches, we're selling a story. Well, of course, you're selling a fucking story, but you're also selling watches. And they have, and I mean, we all buy into this sort of thing that this, this, it's, it's almost abstract all that stuff, the minute repeaters and the, the carry-ons and the, whatever it is. But I mean, yes, I still get very excited by that. And I think that those are kind of, I hate to say marketing exercises, but in a way they are because they are something, you know, you see that and then you'll buy that one because you've seen that one being a brand, I mean, if Vacheron doing this very well, Patrick did it already in the, in 89 with the, Caliber 89, we did it again with the star caliber at the year 2000. So they kind of, they've sort of done that. And now, and now Vacheron is doing it with the, with the, with the, like, like, the kit du ton, whatever it's called. I mean, my, my, my, my, - By the way, I should just, I mean, watching, Nick is fluent at French. And so whenever he, so pretends like he can't say the French word here. Yeah, we, we, we, we, we, we lost over my lack of linguistic facility with the language of Voltaire and Russo and continue with them. - You mean the Russo? - Cockney slang. (laughing) Yeah, where were you thinking? Yeah, I mean, no, they wouldn't. They wouldn't, they wouldn't, because they're, they're, they're lost leaders. But they are also, they kind of, they're, they're the watch industry at its most distilled in that nobody needs it. - Yes, and I mean, brands are vanquished for Naples, are sort of, you know, still so they really are pushing the boat up for this, what's the thing? - Yeah, vanquished. - Yeah. - Yeah, vanquished, do, I mean, no, what do you mean, in Vassarol? - No, I'm saying vanquished, do, I mean, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, - Vanquished to amazing. - Vanquished to amazing, amazing, amazing things. The birds on the, on the, all of that stuff, they are show stopping. I, they are, they are, they are not for the rest, but they are show stopping. - No, they, they're one for the rest, which was, I felt very sorry for all the, I feel very sorry, because when Nicholas boss was running it, you know, very hands on, I felt sorry for the other watch brands, because the other watch brands, you know, they, men tinkering away making a sort of minute repeater, a chronograph split second, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, moon phase accurate, just 20 million years or whatever it is. And then he comes along with a gold watch shape, like a carp. - And everybody just looked at that. - Yeah, and then everybody kissing, kissing on a bench, or something like that, sort of, you know, that means it's 12 o'clock. - Yeah. - And then, in Paris, it's kissing out. - I don't know, I say good, I say good. They're brilliant, but they are brilliant. They are holologically brilliant. - Yes. - Because they, again, that is another way of taking the story of the watch to a something, it is a piece of entertainment. - Yes. So look, look at this, you press about and and they kiss, or you press about and they, the bird flies away, it is amazing that thing. - So I think where we can round things up as ultimately by saying that, the courts crisis might have been scary, but we are delighted about the fact that they came out the other end, because ultimately we are so enthralled by this world, which is, which is, for a long time, it's not a bit about just telling time. It's about, it's about so much more that there's an artistry and a accomplishment that comes with it. - It's been protected by UNESCO, I think, as a intangible asset or something like that. - And quite right too. - Well, no, it has, I mean, genuine has, protected. But some. - If you were to get a court swatch today, what would you get? - Well, if I had to have anything I'd have, I'd have the Rolex, the Beta 21. - Okay. - But there is also Denison, the quite nice, I think, for example. - Yeah, they are really nice. - And what's really good price point? - A really good price point. Individual looking thing. - Yep. - And it's got the aesthetic in it. But it's also, that's a watch where you don't need it to be, the mechanic, I mean, it's ironic, because it's more accurate than the mechanical watch. But it's not about the machinery, it's about the look. And there, it's quite happy. You know, it's like, like, women's watches are condescendingly used to be just battery operated. Because of course, we, the makers were really men, and they thought that women were incapable of operating a wristwatch. So they just slot up sort of battery enough to go. And that is what the Denison is, you know. It's not pretending to be a kind of rugged, you know, but to go to great depths or go to great speed or anything like that. It's just a nice decorative watch. And in that case, the movement to the hand is almost irrelevant, you know. But it's just, but it's so I, I, I, I, I, we're the enough don't mind talking about quartz with that. But I still, I still, I'm of that generation where still quartz is a bit of a dirty word, you know? Yeah, I mean, and, and, and for the, for the, for my son's generation, it's not. No, but the Rolex is a great thing. Which, which we established very well in the Samariner episodes. And so thrilled to your back. And thank you very much again for, for coming. Hopefully educating the listener in a, in a particular period of time that they may not have known about. And they may not have asked to know about. No, but I hope you make sense of my ramblings. Because it is, it is fairly sort of, it's like, it's like a Virginia Woolf novel. Do you know what I mean? You sort of, James Joyce. Yeah. James, James, James, James, James, James, I hope Virginia Woolf, because it's even more scatty, you know? But we are delighted to have you. Thank you. I remain Tom Chamberlain. And this has been the luxury dispatch. The podcast that tells you all the stories you didn't realise you wanted to know, and answers all the questions you are yet to ask. Please do like, subscribe. And if you have any comments, we look forward to reading them. Agree? Disagree? Suggest other topics you'd like to hear us cover. No review will go unread. Thank you for listening.