The Pursuit Series: Secrets to Building a Culturally Impactful Brand

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Find your perfect tree at the number one Christmas tree retailer and get low prices guaranteed on all your festive favorites at The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. Visit homedepot.com slash price match for details. When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it. The one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand and on the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is The Goop Podcast. Bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers. Here to start conversations because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Hi guys, I'm Emily Hickey and welcome to the Pursuit Series on Goop. Gwyneth and I created the show to have the kind of super honest invasion of privacy style conversations that you typically only get with your closest friends. And Goop exists as a brand, of course, to, to inspire and equip women in their pursuit of their fullest versions of themselves. And while that self-pursuit is private, it definitely doesn't need to be lonely. So today I'm with Julie Rice and Elizabeth Cutler. They are the brilliant co-founders of SoulCycle, which is one of the most culturally successful brands of the last couple of decades. We deconstruct their success, including their day one marketing strategies, how they thought about their emotional brand, why and how they put that brand into culture. And on a personal level, how have they gotten re-inspired about life after selling SoulCycle? How do they listen to their own instincts and so much more? So if you've never come across Elizabeth and Julie, you're in for a real treat. And I hope that this conversation helps you think about your business or your life or both in fresh ways. And without further ado, here is the Pursuit Series interview with Elizabeth Cutler and Julie Rice. Great to see you both. Great to see you, Emily. Delighted to be here. Couldn't be more excited. Same. So Elizabeth Cutler and Julie Rice, you guys are the very beloved and also very cool co-founders of SoulCycle. You pursue yourselves and lives in a very sophisticated, but adventuresome and open and unpretentious, meaning-oriented way. And it is so wonderful to have you here. Thank you for being here. And welcome to the Pursuit Series. Very, very excited about this. So I want to set the scene a little bit, guys, before we dive in, because I do want to spend a minute kind of deconstructing some of the successes that you guys had at SoulCycle because I think you guys did something extraordinary. But first I want to understand kind of your arc as people and kind of how big SoulCycle got and just set the stage a little bit here. You just sold your second company that you built together. So congratulations. You're two for two guys. Very impressive. Catch us up on what life looks like right now. Elizabeth. Hi, I'm Elizabeth in New York City. I have spent the last 12 years kind of being torn between two lovers between Colorado and New York. And it feels really good to be really grounded and really present here. I was so surprised that when I really got deep into listening that my taproot was like, no, I really, really want to be here. And I am loving it so much. I am fully rekindled my love of New York City. And I am delighted, delighted to be here. I have been spending the last year and a half exploring a lot of things that have just been quietly whispering in my head. And that includes a ton of travel. It's sort of the yin to the yang of the being grounded. I did a lot of spiritual travel. That's something that's been really important to me. I feel like I have gone through an awakening that I didn't expect to have. At this in my 50s that has been like the most potent time of my life and I feel more alive now than I ever have. And I think a lot of that has to do with just a full shedding of what a previous my previous life was and divorced. And we thank you, Gwyneth, for introducing the idea of conscious uncoupling on us. Honestly, why should we have toxic divorces like this is not a thing and it is the standard and people can't believe what kind of divorce. My ex-husband and I have had and I'm happy to talk about that, too. But it's like it's sane and it's decent and it's honoring what we did. And we were together for over 20 years. So my current cocktail consists of spiritual practice and business and culture and love and fun and aliveness. That's incredible. Amen. And I mean, you invest in a lot of you're doing some investing, I know, including in this. In the fitness space, you are in priestess training, among other things. So, I mean, everything that you're saying is actually true. And I'd love to come back to some of what you were saying about listening and how I mean, that is part of active listening, I guess, is listening to yourself. And I think that's something that I'd love to learn from you, how you orient to yourself. And but that all that sounds it sounds like you're in a great phase, actually. That's incredible. Julie, what about you? I'm also grounded here in New York. I have two daughters. One is 20 and she goes to school on the West Coast, but is in London this semester. And then I still have a 15 year old at home. So I am still based here. And I came to Weight Watchers to become their chief experience officer. You know, for me, I love to say that, you know, I sort of thrive in chaos. You know, I find meditation and movement, no pun intended, which is what we always said about SoulCycle, was that, you know, we created meditation, you know, moving meditation. And I find just for me as a person, that really does work. And so, you know, I really find happiness learning new things, being with teams for me, that's that really is where I find my happy place. And so, you know, a lot of what I spend my time thinking about now is I think, you know, it's believe it or not, it's been 20 years since Elizabeth and I started SoulCycle, which is it's just actually unbelievable. Is I see a landscape that has the same kind of change and white space as when we started SoulCycle. You know, when Elizabeth and I started SoulCycle, I like to hearken us back to a time where there was no Instagram, there was no Lululemon, nobody was wearing black tights around cities. We came to New York at the same time that the first Lulu's opened a showroom, right? And so for us, we were really inventing this concept of exercise being more than just burning calories. We really helped. We really helped sort of shape the narrative of how exercise could become a lifestyle, right? How it could say something about you, how it could be part of the company that you kept. And I think that was a really revolutionary thought 20 years ago. Today, I kind of see that same white space as we begin to think about how kind of medicine and how telehealth and how health care and fitness and lifestyle and wellness are also merging. We're once again figuring. We're once again figuring out how we're using pharma, right, to also help us get benefits that we can then accelerate with our lifestyle choices. And I think we're in a very interesting moment where science and technology are meeting human connection. And so I spend a lot of my time thinking about, you know, how do we now add in these new tools that are available to us while we still maintain human connection? I like to say that, you know, at some point when you talk to Claude or you talk to Chad, you do eventually hit the end of the road, right? My husband likes to say to me when I'm Internet shopping in bed for hours, like, have you hit the end of the Internet yet? You know, but it's a really interesting thing to think about, right? Knowing that, you know, knowing that technology and science have become table stakes. How do we also bring in the human connection piece and bring all these things together? And that's a lot of what I'm thinking about and working on now. And that's kind of where I am. That's super interesting because it's like shifts. and culture creating opportunities news for businesses when you guys so is it true that you guys thought of soul cycle over like somebody set you guys up on a launch and you launched this five minutes five months later like what was was that were you guys thinking about culture shift or were you just riffing on what you wish existed how did we had it all planned out we knew everything we knew this are you kidding i was taking a spin class at one gym elizabeth was taking a spin class at another gym we both said to a teacher that we knew i have an idea and one day that teacher said to me i met a woman who has an idea you have an idea you two should have lunch and that was the huge amount of brain trust that happened i can tell you the rest of the story from here what was the idea you know i think we were picking up on something that was a deep yearning for each of us and that was to find and to be able to schedule and to be able to fold fitness into our lifestyles in a way that just was too clunky i mean in it's so crazy to think what it was like in 2006 you had to get to your gym an hour early to sign up on a piece of paper if you wanted to go to a popular class and then you had to wait around for the class and then you didn't know which bike you were going to get and there was just like bad lighting and you know unexpected maybe terrible music and it just it just felt like disrespectful in a way of people's times and we just thought let's just let's love this thing into existence and find a way to do it in a way that's just we found a way to make this thing a pleasure a joy a something that you could look forward to doing because we all need to take care of our bodies and we all have these human bodies that need caring for and so also the other crazy thing that was going on at the time was like the ruder you were in customer service like the better the customer service was and so we really found a way because we really cared about the people who walked through our door to like love these people and we really did and also we found a way to make this thing a pleasure a joy a something that you really did and also just to see like people bringing their family people bringing their children people bringing the people who were like close to them that we felt like a tremendous amount of respect and honor for the community that that came up and so i think that for us like that seeded when we first met each other and we just kind of like fell in love with this idea and it didn't take long for it to come together because we just were both so desperate to find something like that that we could fold into our own lives so we were really the beginning users and and what was it like for you to be able to find something like that that you could Was it a psychological insight? I mean, because what you're describing is sort of convenience, you know, and just in, in an improvement of a customer experience, but you put something into culture and you sort of changed fitness culture with it. It became an identity for people. It, what was the, what was in that first room? Was it candles? Was it the mixture of religion and identity with taking exercise to a different place psychologically or what? No, I think really Elizabeth and I, I think are really deep on. So we did go on this blind date together from, you know, through this instructor that introduced us and we had this lunch and it was one of those things where we had a really common vision, but we had different skill sets and, you know, we left lunch that day and Elizabeth called me and said, okay, you know, you research towels and I'm going to look for real estate and I'll call you on Thursday. And really it's a crazy, story, but like she did call me Thursday and she found an old dance studio that was a five-year sublet and it happened to be across the street from my apartment. And I met her there and we went to Starbucks and we wrote a business plan on the back of a napkin, which Elizabeth still has framed in her office. And five months later we were open. And it sounds like a crazy story because I actually do believe being a second time entrepreneur is much harder than being a first time entrepreneur. You know, it's kind of like, you know, ignorance is bliss. You know, you just keep marching forward through all the things that you're doing. And I think that's a really, all of the mistakes. But what I will say to you is the real bond at that lunch was there was a deep understanding in each of us. I had just moved to New York from California, Los Angeles. Elizabeth had just moved back from Telluride, Colorado. And I think each of us innately understood that exercise for us was more than just moving our bodies. It was about giving ourselves the time to dream, about giving ourselves the time to bond with other people. It was that, that time was so precious and understanding that it could be so much more than just burning calories. I think that was what the real connection was over. And that's what we brought into those rooms. I think that, you know, what we understood very quickly about SoulCycle was that people came because they thought they wanted to fit into a different size jeans or they wanted to be able to get, you know, better cardiovascular health so they could ski to the highest altitude on a mountain. But that was the first time they came. By the third time people came back, I used to like to say, if I took the bikes out of the room and put tambourines in there, people would have come back and just played them because they came for exercise, but they came back for each other. And I think that was really because we very carefully designed what we would deliver in those rooms. And, you know, we delivered, Elizabeth always says, we have this one video, a brand video we made years ago. And at the end of the video, Elizabeth says, you know, when asked what SoulCycle is, she said, what SoulCycle is, was love. And it really is. And it was really about taking care of people and creating an environment where people had no choice but to take care of each other because we put so much love in those rooms and we trained everybody to put so much love in those rooms. And we loved the people that worked for us so much that when you walked into those rooms, that's what you got, right? You got that on every day that you showed up. It was better just for walking through the door. And as the business became profitable and as, you know, and as, as all the wives brought their husbands and everybody started to count all the money that we were making on the bikes. And if you did the math and there was 80 bikes in the studio, $27 a bike, I could replicate this. I could create a competitor. I can do it. The thing, what people did not understand was that the investment that we made, the most expensive thing that you could not see was how much we invested in people. And you know what? It's a really interesting thing because I've worked at so many companies since SoulCycle and there's always a huge amount of money in the, in the line on the Excel spreadsheet for the digital and the tech. And there's always a huge line for the marketing budget. And then suddenly we get to the people column, training benefits. And people just think that people are going to train themselves. They're just going to love each other. They're just going to take care of each other. And the thing is, when you invest in people, they invest in each other. And your product becomes beloved. And that's really what we did. And it was just like that. I mean, of course, with a million other very, very calculated decisions, I don't, I don't need to simplify it that much, but it really was in the found and it was really created in the spirit of giving and really collective giving. A hundred percent. And the service that came out of that, the desire to serve the community just infiltrated the entire culture. And what was interesting about that to your point of listening, I think that what we were finding on that bike, because that was the vibe that was the, that was the way that the table was set, it allowed us to like unplug from everything and actually listen to ourselves to have that time to tap in, like literally that was one of the things we would talk about, like just tapping in, tapping back, like moving in rhythm with each other. You start to find something. That is so pertinent to what is really going on. And that's what matters. That's so cool. Even just that phrase tapping in, I feel like that is you, that is what you guys did. And, and so what, I mean, it is so hard to build community around brands, guys, like so many companies will say that as a goal. And by the way, Julie, I agree with your point on the under feeding of people. People does equal culture. People is your product. In a lot of ways, like it, that's a very, that's very true. But how do you, you know, if you were starting something new or the, the brands that you guys invest in or advise, what, what are the three things you did? Okay. You open up first location. How did you get people there? Like what, what were your sort of three things you did that you would say those were real success factors in the early days? In terms of getting people there? Yeah, getting it going and building community around it where. Where people felt such an emotional loyalty to it. One thing I just want to say about that is that the one thing that was so incredible about having Julie Rice as a business partner is that we were always in service of whatever was in the best interest of SoulCycle. Like SoulCycle was its own thing. Like, is this in service of fill in the blank? And so we always, we never, ever violated that. We always like, is this in service of the brand? Is this important to the brand? Is this important to the people? Is this important to the writers? Like, where was that happening? And I think like that just as a baseline before you even think about like, who's walking in your door is something to really, I mean, it's like an obvious thing that people discount. Well, I think there, I think there are people that are just innately brand people to their core and whether it's a house or in your outfit or in the way you host somebody or. In anything, right? I think some people are just innately brand people. I think Elizabeth and I both are those people. Um, and so for us, I like to say, you know, thinking back, you know, we made brand decisions when we had no business, right. We had no business to make brand decisions, right. We did, we were like these brand police over a non-existent brand. You know, it was like, we were making no money and people would say, oh, can we sell, you know, we'd love to put a fridge in your studio and we'd love to sell, you know, green juices. And, you know, I would look at Elizabeth and I would say, there's only one star in the SoulCycle show. And if we start putting juices in here, people are going to leave thinking this is a juice place, not a yellow wheel place. Right. I mean, we could have used the money. Believe me. I remember us thinking like, wow, we can make 3000 bucks a month putting somebody else's fridge in here. But we always made even those small decisions where you decide to say no. I mean, we said no when we had no right to say no, but we knew that we wanted, we always said, you know, we SoulCycle is the star of the SoulCycle show. And until she is the big name, she's the star of the SoulCycle show. And until she is the big name on the marquee, there is nothing else that we're putting on there. And we made every choice thinking about that. We always thought to ourselves one day, just like the Nike swoosh, there's going to be a wheel and it's going to say nothing underneath it. And people are just going to know it's SoulCycle. Right. And that was always the goal. The goal was always to create brand in that way. And when you do that, when you see that in the distance, you become very disciplined. There's a real discipline. It becomes very clear. There are right choices, and there are wrong choices. And one thing that's great about having Elizabeth Cutler as a business partner is that, you know, Elizabeth has always been into entrepreneurial freedom. Elizabeth made an investment because she's a great entrepreneur that gave us the seed money to start our business. And we have the freedom to always make the right choices for the business. And with that freedom, we could say no to things that other people might say, you know what, we could use the cash. We could use the choices that benefited the business the best for the bigger picture. That what you're saying, Julie, I hear a lot from like anytime I work with or meet someone who's built a true brand that has identity and people's self-images drawn into it and community. And they, they always reference that as a success point is discipline and saying no to things. So yeah, it's that, that is a big part of the brand instinct, I think, is the discipline around it. And I want to give things that are personal. I'm pro football, hall of famer, Brian Dawkins. And I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of major depressive disorder. 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So we actually really had to create a marketplace before we could create a product, which was the harder part of this equation. Training people to pay for something that is included in their gym membership is actually harder than creating a product. And so, you know, I think, you know, I think, you know, especially because New Yorkers do not want to be insulted in terms of their intelligence. Like, how dumb do you think I am? This is for free down the street. Yes. But it's like, and Julie was like, listen, it's going to be curtains up and curtains down on the hour. Like we have to deliver on the hour. And she was like, if we get going in the morning, like the energy will build throughout the day and we can continue to do this. But it was really serious. Thank God she has a theater background. And, you know, I think, you know, I think it's going to be really, really, really hard. And, and, you know, the Hollywood background, it really helped people understand what their responsibility was in order to kind of bring it and let people really experience something in those rooms. That's so interesting. So you thought of it as informative, like this was an experience you were selling. Emily, you and I have bonded over this many times, our love for theater, but yeah, the exact way we thought about it was from the moment you cross our threshold until the moment you leave, it is curtains up, curtains down. whether from the person at the front desk that knows your name or remembers your shoe size or knows something about you so that they can make a connection between you and the person that's behind you on the line, which again, you know, forms community. I mean, you know, this is the part where I tell people that are still massive SoulCycle fanatics to turn off the whatever they're listening to this on because, you know, the truth about the SoulCycle experience is it's designed. I mean, the actual experience is scripted. I mean, it's a journey. It's the hero's journey in five parts, right? So we warm you up. We pop the party. We break you down. We give you a soulful moment. And then we send you home like a hero. And, you know, you can do it to heavy metal and I can do it to Justin Bieber and somebody else can be a Swifty and do it. And the next teacher can do it to show tunes. But we're all taking you through the five emotional stages that are going to take you. Right. From I don't want to be here to I can't do this anymore, to triumph, to moving you through something, to allowing you to feel better when you walked in. Right. That is what is going to happen to you every single time. And then you're going to walk back out into our lobby and somebody is going to congratulate you and the instructor is going to give you a high five and they're going to notice something's a little bit better or different than you than the last time. Somebody else is going to say goodbye to you and then you're going to walk out the door and you're going to feel like you're a hero. And then you're going to walk out the door and you're going to feel like you're a hero. And then you're going to walk out the door and you're going to feel like you're like, wow, they know me. I know myself better. There were people in this huge city that care about if I show up tomorrow. And that's what happens there. And it is all designed down to the moment. It is a theater production. That's so brilliant. It's you know, you could really take that metaphor with almost anything, including yourself and how you show up in any room that you walk into. I mean, the curtains up, curtains down is such a great metaphor in the manufacturing of a of an experience as the product. Like even with clothes, you know, you are selling an identity and you are, you know, anything that actually is worth kind of stepping to the other side of the room and thinking about whatever you're doing as as a production and a performative experience. It's super interesting. May I just also add in that Julie Rice was the first person to curate athleisure and she was the first person to fold that into fashion. She created these capsules inside of the studio where people would walk in in their high heel boots and these tights that I was like, what are those things? And no, I'm serious. And then she would brand them. And it just was such a look. And it was so great, too, because you sweat in your clothes and they get disgusting. And so it was really like an act of service to have this retail there and to see what she curated and then to see this whole world pop up around it. You know, in the ensuing years has been like a it's been actually it has blown my mind to think about like what she seeded out there. Anyway, I just we had no more to say that. Well, that's true. We didn't have a marketing budget. And so we we did we did do T-shirts and we did sort of think about swag in a way that people hadn't really thought about before. We had these like iconic silver bags. I mean, it's kind of a joke. I mean, everything that we're talking about is such a joke right now. Like if somebody had an iconic silver bag right now. We had no marketing budget when we were done building this deal. We had $2,500 left over. And Elizabeth looked at me and she was like, OK, market. What are you going to do? We're going to make t-shirts and we're going to get the 250 coolest people we know to wear them. And then Elizabeth and I got like master press lists from anyone we knew. And we drew, we drove around the city with these silver bags in your tiny station wagon and tried to like deliver these packages. Oh my God. It was, it was what an experience. I mean, it was a long couple of days. It was. But that, did that work guys? I mean, so it was, it was like this very early influencer seating strategy before that even existed. You drove around. Because nobody, nobody swagged people then. There was no such thing. There was no internet. There were no influencers. So us delivering bags of goodies with yellow Gatorade and yellow shirts and yellow towels and spin shoes, people couldn't believe it. I mean, it was, these were, this was a really novel concept at the time. And by the way, for us influencers was, were the moms that were the influencers. And so we were like, Oh, we're going to do this. We're going to do this. The head of the PTA at the local school, two doors down from our studio, we thought about our influencers as people that could actually populate our studio and help become fire starters for our community. And that's, what's so interesting because, you know, in this whole world where we're all, you know, paying to play and influencers and this much a post, and this is the engagement and all the things, you know, thinking about, we thought about influencers as people that were actually going to live in our community. And so we thought about influencers as people that were going to live in our community, that we were going to be able to take from users and make them evangelists and people that would stir this pot up for us and start these fires. And so I think for us, you know, local marketing strategy was everything you ask kind of what we did. I mean, we walked up and down avenues doing everything from putting flyers in mailrooms to going to local businesses, donating to school auctions, you know, giving it away to the employees that helped, you know, take strangers and put them in a room together that live within a five block radius of each other. It's pretty magical. People don't think about local marketing that much anymore, because obviously we have the internet now, but really most businesses, especially local businesses, you really only need 500 customers to become profitable. And really most businesses, right? Whether you have a sandwich shop or a dry cleaner or a spin studio, you don't need thousands and thousands of customers. You need a couple hundred loyal ones. I'm like dying with everything you're saying, Julie, because I so passionately agree with everything. I just passionately, passionately agree with everything that you're saying. And I always recommend this to people when they're sitting there thinking about how to start their business. And you, it's so helpful to think about that. You don't need that much, like set your sights, really. You like, try to go get your first like 10 people, go get them by hand, get your first hundred and think locally and think in a very tangible way about who is that target market. And how are you going to Truman show them and create this illusion of velocity and influence them to want to be a part of what you're doing. It's creating awareness and it's creating desire and belonging and self-image tagging. And what you did is perfect. It's literally perfect execution of marketing. And I know you, I've gotten to work with you enough that I, that this is still the pattern of how you think. And it hasn't changed. It still works. It's still the right thinking. I'm just so impressed that you guys did this. It's one last piece, Emily, that I think people don't think about anymore. Make it good when they get there. Right? Yeah. Good idea. Make a great product because why should we have to acquire the same customer over and over again? Why can't we keep some of the ones we have, right? You know, that was the thing for us. This concept was so out of the box that if we could find somebody that was willing to pay $30 for an a la carte spin class and find us in the rear lobby of a building, we had no sign on our front door. You know, you couldn't even find us. You had to come down this long hallway to actually get to our studio. And then we asked you to clip in a bike in the dark for $30. If you made it all that way, we had to do whatever it took to make you come back. I would babysit your kid. Elizabeth would feed her parking meter. We would walk your dog around the block. Like it didn't matter. You know, the acquisition cost was so high for us in terms of human capital. You had to come back. We had to love you into coming back. That was it. You had to love you into coming back. That was it. I love it. How big did it get, guys? How many studios, how many employees? The exit, I know you have not announced, but the internet says that you guys each walked away with $90 million. You can neither confirm nor deny. But how big did this get? We ended with 60 studios. I think it was about 1,600 employees. And how many riders a day were we seeing, Elizabeth? 20,000? I think between 20,000 and 30,000 people. Yeah. And the beautiful thing about that, too, is we were in all these cities in Canada and the United States. And I remember somebody saying, this goes back to your marketing thing, I'm so bummed out. We have to move to San Francisco. And I'm like, that is not a problem. Go to SoulCycle in San Francisco and meet the front desk. And within a week, you're going to have a babysitter, two new friends, and whatever else you need that you can't find because these communities exist as if they're the only one. But when you walk in there, you feel this sense of familiarity. And that was something that we really focused on in terms of the training so that people could feel like I could trust the brand no matter where it was. And I think this goes back to investing in the people like Julie was talking about. If you're going to scale something, commit to it all the way so that people can have those same skills. make it good everywhere, not just in one place or another. How did you, so were you guys fanatical? Yeah. I mean, that's hard to do across that many studios and classes a day and instructors, but you were just, that was, you know, I think a big part actually of building companies and being successful is being very clear with yourself about what's important, you know, and what are the priorities? What are the pillars of this thing that we can never screw up and so the consistency of that curtains up curtains down that experience and the familiarity and you belong here how did you guys that like that was just you knew that that was core pillar of success was the consistency of that experience oh 100 i mean that and and by the way like that was our big biggest investment was to make sure everybody who worked for us was a user you know you have to use your product you have to learn your product you have to learn your customers you have to listen to your customers they i mean i've heard you guys talk about this a million times but they tell you everything that you need to know yep look we i mean obviously you know in the beginning you know elizabeth and i were feeling our way around in the dark obviously making great instinctual decisions but there became a clear moment where we became you know ceos that needed to scale and begin to build a big business i mean when we left the business i mean we're talking about a business that you know had had a really high valuation had 60s to 80s and we're talking about 20 to 30 000 people a day had 2 000 employees i mean we were not so realistically i mean we we got very lucky we had an employee number one literally who became our chief culture officer our chief experience officer all the things and we like to say we don't know the day that amy went from being a rider to being an employee but somehow she just kept showing up uh and she began to codify everything and she is a maniacal human being about codifying training training and customer service is her entire life and eventually by the time we got to about 15 studios we had a corporate headquarters and in our basement we had soul cycle university and at soul cycle university we had 100 units of hospitality everything from history of the brand to why we make decisions to how to listen to a customer to how to connect customer a to customer c you signed on to the company and you signed on to become a soul cycle employee it's what elizabeth said nobody you had to have already been a rider to become you know we didn't hire people that didn't use the product but then it didn't matter if we were hiring you to be the cfo or we were hiring you to be an instructor you worked at the front desk for two weeks to a month so that you could understand what our customers were saying and what it was like and training went from there but we invested tens of thousands of dollars in each of our employees to train them and we would send ahead so if you know if we were opening you know if los angeles had just opened but we were opening texas next we would take you know seasoned people from los angeles and we'd send them ahead to texas and grow the bench behind i mean it became very methodical but you know i will never forget the day that elizabeth and i went to our first opening in los angeles it was the first studio that we opened outside of the tri-state area before that we could touch everything if i hated the retail i could drive up to connecticut and change where the bras were hanging if elizabeth didn't like the way the studio looked in scarsdale she could get up there and tell them to you know to move a wall but this was the first one that we opened and then we left and we went back for the one year anniversary and we took a rot we rode in the anniversary ride and we stood in the lobby afterward and as soon as the doors opened to the studio people started to come up to us in the lobby and they would say they'd pull us aside like they just like they had in new york and they'd say you know i came because i thought i wanted to lose a little weight but like that's not what happened to me it turns out i became confident enough to you know leave my toxic job or i didn't know how to have a relationship with my daughter and we come here together now and it became very clear to us that we had figured out how to scale human experience experience which by the way emily was always the question around the valuation of the business people would go night business girls and by the way that was what they said good business girls but how are you going to scale a human experience right because it's a it's this right you know it's a magic right it's a it's it's it's science and it's it's art and it's science and it is very hard to put art on a spreadsheet but we did it like we really did it and we did it in a very methodical way those playbooks live on today if you go to a studio today that they you know people are still being trained the way that we set up that training program to be and you know we i like to say like we really codified magic you guys get me so excited every time i talk to you i'm so dying to build something with you guys and i can't imagine the the respect that you have for each other the way that you talk about each other and the energy that you guys put into every you you guys have this intrinsic belief in what you do that anything is possible okay we'll buy we'll okay we'll buy a space we'll you know everything is possible like overnight and you guys just plow in and do it you're true entrepreneurs it's so i just love hearing you talk but what do you guys think about culture right now like i've been thinking about like the last two super bowls for example i'm like i don't know what we're about anymore and i don't i don't want to talk about politics or anything else but as a country i feel like it used to be we all had the same sense of humor and so all the super bowl ads would be kind of like of the same genre and everything was you know made sense and was cohesive and but i feel like we're a little bit lost on culture now on the one hand you can make something the social platforms are so flammable you can build a meme like overnight and but then it comes and goes and you know how do you if you have your ear to the ground and i know julie you've already mentioned sort of the personalization of of medicine and the humana you know that becoming more more human but what else if you ever the ear to the ground on culture right now what what do you think is happening like how would you describe or what what's hitting right now whether it's a brand or tv what themes are you guys seeing i think that more the more and more that we are using ai and becoming reliant on a ai it's like an inverse algorithm that happens to us where we're going inside and i've heard you talk about the assembly and i think it's really true that the divine lives inside us and that can mean anything to anybody but it's almost like saying yes to the things that we can hear and how much wisdom exists inside our own bodies our own beings if we will allow ourselves the the the space to experience that and i really think that you know whether or not we want to say it in that way i think that that is is going to become so important and frankly it's like time there's so much awakening that needs to happen and i just think like this all of the chaos that's happening is allowing that to get born so you know for me i just think like we have done we've been all trained to like override it and like give our our autonomy to other things and i think it's fine to do that i think there are you know it's interesting it's fun there's a lot to be said for us and i think it's fine to do that i think it's kind of playing in that but then ultimately to come back home i think is very interesting and i'm personally really curious about the yin of that with the yang of what julie was describing like how do you put these pieces together and that will become a core element of it for sure in a way that it hasn't in a long time because we've always looked outside ourselves i i love that and the way you phrased it elizabeth like as an awakening and this the creation of inner space and the validity of inner space i really agree with you and i think that's why 90s new york is hitting so hard right now i feel like in so many fashion brands the love story jfk jr like the because it was real it was unphotographed it was there was no instagram those people just living you know and there was an authenticity to it and i think julie our mutual brand that we admire so much a24 and the way that they've built community i think is because they're putting an authenticity stamp and they people want to be a part of that community because i think it it says i value my inner life and so yeah i really agree elizabeth i think that is what is driving that need for inner space and feeling real and valuable is what's driving not flammable ephemeral ephemeral culture but the stuff that's really taking root where you can see it and think that's going to be a generational brand julie what about from your angle you you are so good at putting things into culture it's really brilliant you know it's it's a really interesting time in culture i think we're in a little bit of a tweener time right i think i think i really do i think we're like a little bit in a cusp of i believe what elizabeth said wholeheartedly i actually think people are actually getting bored of their own phones which is amazing you know i i really i'm seeing it happen i am and i think it's it's fascinating and what we're gonna what we're gonna put in that void is really interesting look i can tell you i was thinking a lot about coming here and talking to you today and i was thinking about like sort of like for me what is the you know what what brand is my hero brand right now and you know what the truth is the new york knicks have become my hero brand and i will tell you and and for a million reasons i will tell you that but it's so interesting like when you ask what i'm craving i i i feel like this basketball team has brought me back to life post-covid i know it sounds crazy but i was looking for a i was looking for a reason to live in this city and love being a new yorker again and not feel divided by the different politics of different people on different street corners and all be rooting for the same thing and be in a place where there's a live experience and we're collectively going through the hero's journey together every night um and i have a common language that is like making my husband and i closer now because we have this thing we do together and it's just fascinating to me like this brand has all the elements of like swagger and there's like style love a tunnel walk you know and there's community and there's you know pride for new york and when i think about all of those things i really can't think of any other kind of brand or experience that is keeping me so engaged and feeling so connected and emotionally attached to something and i think that's really interesting i really tried to dissect that and think about it and i but i think we crave experiences like that and i and that is why i just think i think consumerism is different now i i think we need you know the calls to action have become bigger because we can do so many things in our home you know it's up to us to create things that people want to get out of their pajamas for because we can all work in you know a sweater and our pajama pants neck down on zoom and it's it's it's really interesting i think we're waiting for those new things to emerge and i i agree with elizabeth i think we're on the cusp of it i think it's a really exciting time i can i just tell you what my new york knicks are oh by the way julie you did not mention the looks that's the other thing that you love about the new york knicks oh yeah the tunnel walk looks oh i'm obsessed believe me the first thing it takes me the whole first quarter just to calm down and like after i've peeped the whole garden gone through everybody's looks like it takes me one whole quarter to get through the looks before i can focus on the actual athleticism and that's the whole thing that's so i love that you're into it because i love the row i like to know who's there you know what i mean it's it's a whole thing i mean it's really a whole new york moment and we we love i mean it really i'm back in love with this city because of it you know what i love about basketball it is so it is such embodied movement like those guys are in their bodies and they have tuned that and they are in sync with each other and in sync with that ball as they're moving it's just amazing it's the it's and it's funny because like the two things that are making my life right now are embodied movement and the place that i'm getting that is with taryn to me at the class and serea who used to work at soul cycle i am obsessed with what is going on in that room it is like the most potent thing and then the the like the yin to the yang is i am also living for five rhythms dance which is i go to this one in the east village with this guy named well whatever it doesn't matter there's lots of them in the city and honestly it has made me fall back in love with new york because there's like it feels so authentic and so real and so cathartic and so fun and so joyful and so challenging and so much aliveness and so weird and so wild and all the things and so it's just it's so funny how we found these places for each other it like for ourselves and our personalities kind of similar i love it guys i love it it is so it's so you each of you and and so true you know and the next i mean i think the nba actually just in general is one of the coolest brands and it like it's just a cool brand and everything nba is just cool and and elizabeth yeah they're you know the physicality it's it's all a conversation around ephemeral social consumerism and ai that's what is our reaction to that i feel like really is dominating kind of human psychology right now and we get to have bodies and we get to have consciousness and to feel alive in a body and to struggle with something. And, you know, like, so that's, and something weird, you know, I love that. I love everything you just said. That's awesome. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Get everything you need to win Thanksgiving at Whole Foods Market. We're talking seasonal favorites from the bakery, easy weeknight meals for before the big day and sales on body care and candles for last minute gifts. Plus with more than 300 band food ingredients storewide, you know, it's quality you can trust. Shop Thanksgiving favorites with higher standards at Whole Foods Market. Prime members shop at WFM.com and get your first order over $25 delivered free. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Viore. Viore, meet the Sunday performance jogger from Viore, part of the Sunday collection. They're ideal for running training and any workout, but stylish and comfortable enough to wear all day, whether you're running errands, heading to the office or meeting up with friends. 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And what did you guys learn about people? What was surprising about that? Or what, what were, are you glad that you spent that time? Did you learn about humanity doing that? And what were the sort of the key takeaways? First of all, you know, everything is part of the journey. So I am glad that we did it. I think what we learned, I don't know if it was as much of a learning as a reconfirmation of kind of what we already knew. I don't know if it was as much of a learning as a reconfirmation of kind of what we already knew. I don't know if it was as much of a learning as a reconfirmation of kind of what we already knew in our souls. But what I think is really interesting, you know, a big takeaway from Soul Cycle was that everybody really wants to be heard. At the end of the day, people want to be heard. They want to feel valued. They want to feel like they're seen. They want to feel like they matter. You know, human beings acknowledging other human beings is really the foundation of life. And I think that's what we learned at Soul Cycle, you know, behind those front desks, in those rooms with each other, something as simple as an instructor, giving someone a shout out, you know, making somebody's day. I mean, it's just really feeling seen, right? And so I think that we always kind of knew that. And I think, you know, to Elizabeth's point, you know, as we're seeing human being skills being sort of stripped out of our culture with over, you know, digital overuse, COVID hibernation, we kind of thought, well, what happens if community is actually the reason we come, right? We're not coming for exercise and then finding community. What we're doing is we're not coming for exercise. We're not coming for giving people the space and the structure and more importantly, the skills to communicate with each other, which I do think, you know, unfortunately, we teach people so many things. We go to school for so many years. We learn math that we'll never use again. We learn all sorts of things. Languages will never speak. But what we don't teach people is how to have healthy relationships, right? Which seems so fundamental. And so I think for us, what we learned as we spent all of this time researching was kind of how to relationship. We kind of codified the skill sets that you need to teach people how to be in healthy relationships. And I think mostly what we learned is that's teaching people active listening, giving people a chance, giving other people a chance to share, asking them probing questions rather than sharing your own opinions. You know, when you think they're done talking, ask them if there's anything else, because they're is rather than telling them what you think they should do, giving your opinion, telling them what happened to you. And so we learned some really interesting techniques from some really interesting people. I think we learned about what it's like to share vulnerabilities so that other people feel comfortable to share vulnerabilities. A lot of skill sets that I think, you know, people would be very well served to not only learn, but practice. That's kind of always how we thought about peoplehood, kind of as a place to practice. You're, you're human being skills. And so it was really valuable. And I think we took a lot away from it. I think it really helped us dissect some of the important elements of what we delivered in Soul Cycle. And, you know, we ultimately wound up selling the business to Weight Watchers and they're now using it to help reformat their, you know, their community workshops, which is great. And I would say we would do it again. Listen, a lot of it was during COVID. You know, for me personally, I've learned, I like to create in a room with people. I don't like to create on a Zoom screen. And I think we learned a lot. You know, I, that's what, that's what I would say about that. What do you want to share? I'm sorry. I'm rambling, Melissa. No, I honestly, I got, for me, it was everything that Julie said. And I think the, the takeaway was, it was like a, getting a dose of humanity and there's something really potent and, and super nourishing about having those kinds of experiences, especially with somebody you've never met before. And it made me like, I did a lot of optimism and same at SoulCycle, but like, we just met so many good people. People are really like, there's a lot of very decent humans walking around this country and it felt good to be in that kind of presence. And in terms of just like the learnings, you know, I think for me, I think for both of us, honestly, you know, the, the call to action has to be so strong and people's experience of it has to be like, so powerful. And I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think it's really important to develop that kind of habitual need. And there was an essence of this that was a little, what's the word I'm looking for? Not obvious. And so sometimes like, I just kind of feel like people got it, but then they lost it. And I don't know, you know, I think that that was, that was just a piece of it that we kind of left us really still being curious about, you know, just to kind of dig on a little deeper. That's not making any sense, but anyway, you can. Well, I think optimism, I, first of all, I just want to say, I love what you said about optimism because that is so important in life. And I think that all the time of like, like there are so many good people walking around. And so to spend that time kind of soaking that up and coming to that conclusion, I think is actually really nice. But you said something to me, Elizabeth, in Telluride a while back, we were having coffee one time and you said, you know, I feel like if, if my husband and I, you referenced your divorce earlier, and we don't have to talk about this, Elizabeth, if you don't want to, but I, this has just stuck with me for so long. You said, I feel like if we had been better listeners, if we had had really good active listening skills, we would have had a shot at staying together. And I've thought about that so many times because that is the thing of marriage is just, it's this constant effort to, to hang on to each other, you know, and the role of listening and that, and it's such a temptation in relationships to take the self-indulgent, the thing that makes you emotionally feel indulged in the moment, instead of targeting the long-term health of the relationship and doing the mature thing of just trying to get to that, you know? So I, I, I thought that was very, that really moved me when you said that. And so there was a kernel in what you guys were doing with people that I, that I thought was like really beautiful, actually, that would have been a great service to humanity. You know, and it's so interesting. So two things about that, we actually did use, Alan and I did use that and it really helped us for a long, long time. And I think maybe what I was referring to is if we had had that from the beginning to Julie's point, like if you are teaching people how to be in relationship with each other, it's such a valuable skill to give and to really, and by the way, the reason why we even started thinking about this is because Julie and I were fighting and like, we couldn't fight and serve the brand because you can't have that kind of stuff. And so I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think strife. And yet we're very different people. We, we were hit with, I mean, a tsunami of challenges and we had to learn from, we ended up learning this from our coach that we got very early on, which we also fought about. And she had us suspend our own positions to just shut the fuck up and try just shh and listen to the other person and get their world for five minutes, 10 minutes, not that long. And then we did. And then we would do that for each other and leave it. Come back the next day and see what had shifted. And I am just saying that was really the seed and the kernel. That was the seed for why Peoplehood got birthed, because we wanted to give people what they could, didn't, you didn't have to have equipment to do something so scalable that you could take with you and use in the boardroom, in your bedroom, in your, at your dinner table with Thanksgiving, for God's sake, you know, all of those places that are, are, you know, can be a little landmine-ish and with no good reason. And it really changed, you know, how we related, it changed how we ended up training into the scale of the business. It changed how we taught the people at the front desk to find a yes for people who came in, people come in hot to retail establishments. They do not bring their best selves. And, you know, you've got a 19 year old standing behind the front desk trying to manage somebody's meltdown. And we have to give these guys something to be able to manage the situation that is going to work for them. And so we empower people like find a yes. It might not be the yes the person's looking for, but find a yes. And that is also just like, it's just like a beautiful offering. That's like service. And so we really did all this work in service of our relationship because like I said, I mean, it was a legit tsunami and then it started to, you know, filter into the organization and then it filtered into this next round of, of creation with peoplehood. And I mean, I think it's a time well spent. Yeah. I want to do it. I wish it still existed. I'll come find you. Let me say one thing to you. We, we also worked with these, these, these marital therapists that they are called Harville Hendricks and Helen Lakelly Hunt. And there's a book called getting the love that you want. And my husband and I, I'm interrupting here. Cause I love this story, but like, it made me so mad that like my therapist who became Spencer's therapist told him about the book before she told me I'm just, it's true. It's true. So my husband had a therapist at the time. I'm sure he wouldn't mind me saying that who said, listen, it's no secret. We talk about it all the time. We had our first child and guess what? We went from being two people that could do whatever the hell we wanted and then just come home and have fun together to being somebody had to be home to relieve the babysitter. Right. And that's when, when the games began and we did not know how to negotiate or communicate or compromise. Because up until that point, we were just two people that also had each other. And so Spencer's therapist said that here's a book. You should read it. If you like it, give it to Julie. And if you both like it, you should go and do this workshop. It was called getting the love you want. And I recommend the book to anybody and Helen and horrible actually helped us on the peoplehood project. And they teach you how to have a conversation. And it's exactly what you said, Emily. It's about, you know, suspending your own disbelief and your wants and needs for the greater good of a relationship. And, you know, the conversation goes something like this, right? Hey, is now a good time for me to talk to you about why I hate the way that you load the dishwasher? And then I just got home from work. I really don't want to talk about that right now. Okay. Well, you have 24 hours to give me a time. So then I give you a time when I can have the conversation. Hey, is this a good time? Yes. Okay. When you load the dishwasher with all the knives and spoons and forks mixed up, you're going to have a good time. And then you're going to have It makes me pissed off because I unload the dishwasher. Great. So rather than me saying, well, I was at work all day. I don't care how you load the dishwasher. You're lucky I put my spoon in the sink. What I need to say to you is, so what I'm hearing you say is that you don't like it when I mix up the utensils because it makes your job harder. Yes, that is. Is there more? And then your partner will say yes, because I feel like I really do the lion's share of the work around here. Got it. You feel like you do the lion's share of the work around here. Of course, that's not what you want to say. You want to say, I also go to work all day, but you say, I understand. What you're saying to me is that you feel like you do the lion's share of the work around here. Did I get all that? Is that right? Yes. And then I say, is there more? And then he says, yes, because when you mix up the utensils, it makes me feel like you don't appreciate me. And it reminds me of when I was little and there's always a something. It always distills down to a deeper emotional something. And what you find is that if you don't go and dig in and defend your own point, because you need to be right, or you need to win, or it's just, you don't want to spend the time. Ultimately what winds up happening is you get, you pop the balloon, right? You distill this down to a place of empathy. And then what winds up happening is you go, oh my God, I love my husband. My husband's the best choice I ever made. I'm thinking, geez, I got that guy. And all I have to do is sort the knives and forks and spoons. And that's, what's going to make him happy. Great. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, you can get it. I'm making you feel unappreciated or like when your parents got divorced and there was like, you know, unrest in your house and it's bringing you feelings of that all from the knives and spoons. And so it's amazing what happens when you actually, instead of defend your own point, when you take the time to just listen to somebody and it's a really easy practice. And I will say, you know, and then I'll, I'll stop my big monologue, but I really do feel, and I've been saying this a lot lately, Elizabeth, so I should say to you, but I really feel like I'm, I'm such a lucky person in my life. I have been given two great teachers. One of them is Elizabeth Cutler and one of them is my husband. And I have done this work with both of them. And I will tell you, it has profoundly shifted the way that we have been able to grow together over years because, you know, community, we all speak the same language, which is really not what most people do. I mean, this is work that is very worth doing, but it's, it's pretty amazing when you get to the place where you can communicate. In that type of a way where you take your own ego and your own sort of need to win and you can just hear it really shifts things dramatically. I actually think it was also part of the reason our business was so successful, you know, we would go into a room and we'd want to win. And by the time we'd slept on it, we were able to come back into that room and make a choice that was good for the business. And when that happened, everybody won. Yeah, everything you just said was so good, Julie, and I'm going to, I'm going to read that book and it also reminds me, I've been meaning to have the dishwasher conversation with Sean for 20 years and running. So I've been crazy. Who cares? I'd be happy to rinse my glass out. I mean, geez, I would just leave, I would leave my things in the sink to grow mold. I could care less. But like, honestly, this whole thing with the silverware sorting, it's, it's a bit much, I think. I don't need it sorted. I just, it is chaos in the dishwasher. And so you can't fit anything. You know, there's just an argument for. Oh, yes. I'm well aware of this. This is the. Listen, this is about life being filled with tiny miracles. And, you know, there is something really satisfying about just allowing the miracles to exist between your, the people that you love. And if the miracle is a dishwasher, just like you said, Julie, yay. At least you know how to do that. I love it. It's a, and it does. I know, I know what you mean. Cause Sean and I have been through those same kind of, it, it, it boils down to something that is, you're just so grateful for that person. So that's, that's awesome. Okay. So I want to talk. About cost and because we, you know, we're talking about sort of pursuit and pursuing everything at once, a full meaningful life and success and everything else. But there is a cost to choices that we make. And do you guys think, and maybe you could observe this about each other, or maybe, you know, personally, what, what, what did building soul cycle cost you that it almost hurts to say out loud? You know, I think as a mother, the stakes are high and I, you know, I hate to make it, it's whatever it just is. And I remember, you know, it's just, it's, you want to keep everything together and like what it cost me. And Julie remembers this day. I, my husband had a very full-time job where he was expected to be in the office at 7. A.m. And didn't come home until 7. P.m. And here we had soul cycle, you know, and two small children. And I was the one who took them to school in the morning and then I would start my day, but I couldn't do pickup. And one day my four-year-old looked at me and she said, mommy, I want you to pick me up from school. And I said, honey, I, I can't, I can't pick you up from school today. I have to work, but like, and I know that I'm doing this a lot right now, but I will be back, but I just can't do this right now. But I promise you. I promise you I'll be back. And she looks at me right in the eyeballs and she says, it will be too late. Oh, yeah. And it's like, we have to weather those storms because that is a particular medicine that only we will receive. And everybody's. It's going to get it, you know, whether you are staying at home with the kids, you'll get that own particular kind of medicine or whether you go out and you build a company. I mean, it's, it's, it's going to happen. And there is a sacrifice to your soul that happens because like, I know that I want to show up for that four-year-old, like anything on planet earth. But I know that I have not figured out how to be in two places at once. And I'm not going to ever be in two places at once. And so, you know, it's like, sometimes you, what's the, is. that even really a saying? Sometimes you eat the dog and sometimes the dog eats you. I don't know if that's a saying, but that is a saying. I just don't think it's a saying that we have to live with. What's that? It's not a saying. No, no, it's a saying. It's just not a saying that's applicable to this. It means something else. It does? Oh boy. Now I'm afraid. I actually don't know what it means. So we'll count it. Oh my God. Anywho. Yeah. So that's an example. And I think that every parent, regardless of gender, is going to experience that. But I think that's particularly potent for the moms of this world. I do too. Yeah. That's been certainly my biggest pain as a trade-off. I mean, the other one, we were talking, Elizabeth, about social life and the Ralph Lauren thing of when he was in the thick of it, he only had time for work and for his kids and his wife. And that was it. And I think that's an example of a saying that we have to live with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he and Ricky were out walking through the neighborhood and there was a party that they should have been invited to. And he looked at her and said, they've forgotten us. And he was okay with it because that was a conscious trade-off that he had made is that this just was not a time he was going to have a social life. And that's another trade-off that I think I have made that I'm not thrilled about. But certainly the painful one is what you give up being a mom, that you will never get back. And you just hope that it's made up for in the quality of the relationship that you have with your kids because you are a full person and you are doing what you need to do, whether it's financially for the family or for whatever it is. But yeah, it is tricky. Julie, what's your take on that cost? I mean, this is a really bad thing to say, but I don't feel that conflicted about it. You know, building SoulCycle, you know, was, was, was a thrill and a privilege and a child in its own way. And I, I was, I was probably never going to be the mom that did pick up. Is that a terrible thing to say? Yeah. It just was not ever going to be in the cards for me. I have two girls. They 100% know who I am. Maybe they think I'm, maybe they think I'm a selfish beast, but I don't think so. And maybe I'm kidding myself. I mean, maybe, maybe I haven't gotten there yet, but to me, I really feel like, was there a cost? Is there, was there a trade-off? Were there moments that I missed? There definitely were, but I do feel like I was able to be present throughout most of my kids, throughout most of my kids' years. And I think if there's any cost for me, it has been in, in the way that I have had the ability to take care of myself. Yeah. You know, for me, it, it has always sort of been about the fact that there's no real time. You know, I keep thinking about, you know, what am I going to learn when I stop working? What am I going to do? I heard Arthur, I was lucky enough to be in a small group that Arthur Brooks spoke to us the other day. And he was talking about having friends that are useless to you. Meaning friends that, you know, there's nothing you can get from them. There's nothing you can want from them. They're just useless in the best possible way. They're just there. Because you love them. Right. And I think for me, the cost has always been, there's not a lot of things that I have pursued over the past few decades that are just useless, right? Whether it was learning to play tennis or learning another language or, you know, taking an extended meditation retreat or something. I, I, I, I wonder, and I know that there are parts of myself that could be more developed just because, just because it would be interesting for me. And I look, I look forward to kind of that chapter of my life where I can just learn obscure things and do all the things. But, and that is probably the cost, probably physically and mentally. I have not expanded my own self or taken good enough care of myself. But other than that, you know, it's, it's interesting. I, I, I was reflecting on it this morning. Today's my little daughter's 15th birthday. And I called my husband and I said, you know, it's funny, you know, it's, there's a lot to be sad about when your youngest child is turning 15. But I, I feel like, honestly, I've enjoyed every day. I've enjoyed every part of it. You know, I've been blessed to have, you know, parents that have seen these kids along their way. You know, I have a partner that honestly has been more than helpful and supportive. And I think that's also been a gift for me that I can't underestimate that I've had a lot of freedom and latitude in my career because somebody else was also at home during times that I couldn't be. And so, there was a cost. But for me, honestly, if I'm really being like selfish and honest, it's, it's, it's all been a thrill and a privilege and certainly one that I would do all over again. Agreed. Oh my gosh. I just remember when, this is one other sort of thing that's so interesting. We have the smallest team and five of you, we, we had an anemic team. Five of them were pregnant at the same time. Hmm. Not me. I was one of them, right? Yes. Yeah. How, and now those kids are 15. God, that is so fascinating. It's true. I will say, I will say, you know, we got really, we got really lucky with our kids. That's for sure. And, and, and good partner and good partners while we were doing it. Yeah, for sure. Really, truly, really, truly. Yeah. Yep. That's key. I agree. So guys, I mean, we're, we're about wrapped up. Wrapped up on time here, but I guess, you know, are you guys content? You know, you've been so successful. You lived very rich lives and, or are you guys, do you still have a lot to do? And what, what do you, what is meaningful? What, what are you looking for in the next stretch of your lives? What are you seeking? I'm so content. I don't ever think I've been this content. I am so, I love my life and I have a lot more to do. I'm really excited about it and I've been getting a lot of strong messages about what that is and I cannot wait. It's really, it's really cool. I can't wait to hear about that, Elizabeth. And I guess quickly, how are you getting those messages? Do you have some kind of process for listening to yourself? Yeah, like anything. I mean, no, no, that's not true. I, I, yeah, I do deep rest meditation, which is basically lying down. And there's a woman named Jaya Ashmore who has open Dharma. And she does these online meditations. They're half an hour and they are the most restorative, most potent part of my week. They, it's really, I think I'm tapping into like the limbic part of my brain. I can't even describe what it is, but I feel so nourished when I'm done with that. And then I get a lot of messages in those things. So, you know, that's not a big investment. And then I've just been doing a lot of movement to really see like what is in this body. And I feel this huge, again, look, here's the word awakening that is happening and I'm getting a lot of information. And I think like this is, I'm not the only one. I think this is happening for a lot of people. And I just think it's fascinating timing in terms of the zeitgeist and, and, and how this is all going to come together and what, what we'll, what we'll do as human beings who live in human bodies. And with all of this enormous change that's going on and what we have, what we have that we haven't even tapped into. I mean, has anybody ever done? Breath work? I've been doing breath work for years, but like, I am always astonished what comes up as a result of breathing. I've been breathing my whole life. All of us have been breathing our whole lives and no idea that I could do these practices and get so much out of it. It's fascinating. So yeah, between that and movement and meditation and I, you know, it sounds really woo, but I honestly, I also think that's kind of like a disregarding the potency of, of the movement. disregarding the potency of our human experience. I think there's something incredibly powerful about that. And I think that there's a lot for us to learn and it is just waiting for us to take notice. I'm going to check that out, Elizabeth. That sounds really, because I agree, I've been doing breathwork forever too, but not in that. Well, that's not true. Sometimes it has been a really helpful tool for opening up, for listening to myself, but I'm going to check that out. That sounds open Dharma is what it's called. Yeah. Open Dharma. And you know, the other thing, like, and sometimes I get messages, like a recent message that I got was like, anything that's marginal moves to the margin. It's like clearing my own runway, you know, and then, you know, that'll kind of fade and I'll get another one in a few months, but it just like helps me just like Julie and I shared when we were thinking about like our own, like the building of this brand, like those messages for me are like literally about, I mean, it sounds so weird. I've never said this, but it's like building of my own internal brand. What am I investing in? What am I spending my time on? What am I doing to care for this? What am I doing to like align my channel with like what I need to be doing and who I need to know and how I need to know myself? It's, it's, I'm finding this very fascinating, clearly. I love it. I mean, I love the concept of personal brand and always trying to clarify that. content, done, still doing? - Ha ha. You know, I think contentment ambition can coexist. And that's actually the great thing about being older. I'm so content with so many things. I feel so lucky in so many ways. There are so many things that make me feel content these days. I have a grown-up daughter that's living abroad that I can go visit in another country and enjoy as a grown-up. I have a younger child that's finding her way and growing up better than I expected. And yet I feel, I still feel ambitious. And honestly, it's interesting. I'm feeling more ambitious and curious than I even did five years ago, which is interesting. And, you know, part of me thought that I would be ready to be slowing down, but I don't really feel that way. And, you know, I also think it's funny. I think often people's expectation is that, you know, at a certain point you slow down, you take the time, you've had an exit, you did that. And I've actually made peace with, you know, that my rhythm is motion, right? So for me, you know, my kind of contentment comes in staying engaged. And, you know, curiosity and engagement and like living in the world and learning for me are part of my contentment. And so I am just tuned in to the messages that Elizabeth is receiving because I just do whatever Elizabeth receives. You know what? It's worked for me so far, Emily. I'm not straying far from that path. As soon as I'm as Elizabeth lets me know what she's received, I am also going to receive that and run right behind her the same way that I did 20 years ago. I will be dragging from her leg saying, take me with you. The funny thing about you coming to the realization that you're being in movement, I feel like that came through almost like a meditative experience. I think that's right. I think that is true. I think that is right. I think that. Which is not your typical movement. I remember, I'm sorry, I interrupted you, but I'm having a memory about like two different kinds of sharks. Like there's one shark that has to keep moving and like will die if it stops moving. And that's the Julie shark. And then there are other sharks who learn how to sleep in a certain part of the ocean. And that's the Elizabeth shark. The other one great shark, Elizabeth. Together, we are one great shark. Watch out for that shark. That's quite a shark. I can't wait to see what you guys do next. So I know we're at time, guys. I had this cute little lightning round thing that I wanted to do, which maybe we could try to do in like three minutes. It's just three questions. So just hot takes from the week. As you guys know, I spent the last week doing college visits with my son, and now I'm in New York City. And I've been on a lot of planes in the last week. As have you guys. So I'm pulling this just from my life of the last week. And so my first topic for you guys is airport bathrooms is something that is a constant source of I get very upset. Like and Elizabeth, as you being, you know, with your Buddhist background, there is a precept of leaving a place cleaner than you found it. And there anytime you have to open like four stalls to get to one that's actually clean enough to like, I just get really fired up about this. What do you think is going on? What do you think is going on with women's bathrooms? Like, why is there not the feeling some some huge percentage of the population doesn't feel like they need to clean up after themselves? Have you guys noticed this? Yes, I find it. It's I find it. It's, it's damaging to my day. But I was laughing in the airport bathroom because Julie is a very nervous flyers. Is that okay if I say that? Yeah, I'm getting a little bit better. But yeah, I know. I'm so proud of you. Yes. And during the cycle days, she was not. I'm still not a good flyer. So you can that when you said airport bathroom, I mean, all I could think about was flying with Julie. Oh, yeah, Elizabeth really loves me. It was not easy in the day. She used to carry stacks of soul cycle free passes so that she could bribe other passengers on the on the plane to drip to trade seeds to like do nice things for me. It was like a whole thing. But I actually think it depends on the airport. Like SFO clean bathroom. Yeah, new Newark looking pretty good. You know, go land, you know, so it really depends on the airport and the bathroom. Listen, it's a cultural thing, right? I mean, go to Japan, you take the coffee cup that you you know, when you buy a takeaway coffee, it's like you own the cup at the end and have to carry it around in your knapsack until you get to your own house. There's no public, you know that right in Japan, like there's no, there are no trash cans on the street. And once you buy like a takeaway something, you own that piece of trash. So it's a cultural thing. That trash is your personal property. So there's no trash cans on the street. There's none of that you hold it, you own it until you get home. The place that you bought it is not taking it back from you. But there is a personal sense of taking care of trash and public spaces, you know, as if they were your own home, and it exists and it is a culture and for whatever reason, you know, we and our culture don't don't think about it like that. And that's really too bad. So so so what's so what's the take on that the take is, it's, it's, it really, it's, to me, it depends on the airport, actually, you know, if it does wipe the toilet seat, there's no paper, you should be wiping the toilet seat if it needs to be wiped. I want to tell you, public restrooms at Madison Square Garden looking great. Really? Yes, ma'am. You can find me at the rest, you can find me at the women's bathroom at gate 108. Spotless. I want to come to a game with you sometime, Julie. Next, next trip through, you know, and secondly, guys, you know, what are you advising your kids, you know, to do to think how to think about AI and graduating from college, and job thinking and, you know, what, what's your advice to them? Definitely. No, it's not. It's I think, I just really think like people figure it out. Yeah, you know, I know, there's a lot colliding, I get it, you know, maybe I'm being a Pollyanna here. But I just think like, I don't underestimate human resilience. I don't underestimate our creativity. I don't underestimate our ability to think about things differently and to find something new. It's something that we've been doing for, you know, thousands of years, like, we're going to figure this out. It's maybe clunky, it may be difficult. And, you know, there may be a lot of stuff that comes along with it. I mean, in terms of what I'm saying to my children, my eldest daughter has figured out, she's like figured it out, like she what she wants to do. She loves working at a women's health center. She wants to go to nursing school. I think she's going to be in good shape with that. I think there's a lot of AI tools that will support that we're still going to need nurses. Great. My younger one, I don't know what she's going to do. But I'm really excited to find out like she'll figure it out. Yeah, I agree. I think it's all going to be okay. When you're given an opportunity, how is somebody going to remember you? And I just feel like it doesn't matter what opportunity crosses their path, what gift somebody gives them, whatever it is, like teaching them to have above average EQ skills, to make sure that people remember them and feel like they like feel good when they leave them or, you know, that is what I am interested in raising these kids about because whatever they decide to do, those are skills that they're going to need. I think there's a lot of AI tools that are never going away. We will always need to navigate organizations. We will always need a lucky break. We will always need to build teams and networks, whether we're using them to leverage AI or not. And so for me, it is just really about teaching these children. It's like, you know, my youngest daughter, like, I hope she gets good grades. I'm way more interested in the fact that she's joined the school play. She's on the student council, and she's on the soccer team. She's learning collaboration. She's learning creativity. And she's learning like, responding to the students. You know, societal responsibility. Those things for me right now, I think that we're going to have a major shift in education. I see it coming. I see, you know, higher education. Some schools are adapting to it, and some schools aren't. But what we really need to center on is teaching our kids how to be like human beings that can interact in the world in a very proficient way, because those are the people I think will win. Point well taken, I think, Julie. They'll probably be part of the solution. Correct. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. Well, guys, let's wrap there. I could literally talk to you guys all day. You are so awesome. You guys have so much capacity, and you're so energizing to talk to. And I truly hope that we get a chance to build something together. And so happy for you guys with everything that you've accomplished in your life. And you've given so much to the world, and I truly can't wait to see what's next. So thank you guys. Elizabeth gets the message. She's coming back for us. Elizabeth's coming back for the message. And she's going to give us the call, and then we're going to know what it is, Emily. Oh, we're going. We're already going. It's already happening. I'm sorry. I'm jumping in. I'm catching up. Trust this one's messages. They don't need a percent. I know that. I love you with that. Hi, Emily. I'm just so happy to spend this time with you. I have to say, I really enjoyed listening to your podcast and I think that your insights are so important for people trying to figure out how to make heads or tails of what's going on. You always give good advice and it's really clear and it's actionable and those things are so important. So thank you for your service. Same. That really means a lot to me, Elizabeth. Thank you. Thank you so much. That really does. Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Goop Holiday Gift Guides are our calling card. We scour the earth for the best options in every category to make it easy for you to find the right gifts for everyone on your list. Think beautiful jewelry, thoughtful wellness tools, smart kitchenware, clean beauty, and more unexpected finds. 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