The Psychology Of Winning The Super Bowl | Seattle Seahawks Coach Mike Macdonald

"Players know. What do they know? Well, they know it's full of shit. They know who's a good coach. They know who the best players are. They know what the organization is like. They just know." So if you go around trying to fool him like shame on you, you have no idea. "Welcome back. We're welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers." A high-performance psychologist named Michael Drivay. "Who had coach Mike McDonald and former head coach Pete Carroll brought in to work with the Seahawks. Famous for his work with Felix Baumgartner when he jumped out of space in the Stratos project." Olympic athletes depend on something more than just training and talent. They have to stay mentally tough. "Today's guest is Mike McDonald. Head coach of the Seattle Seahawks and one of the youngest head coaches in modern NFL history to win a Super Bowl." "I'm not like coming to the table saying, 'Hey look, this is the Seahawk way of doing it.' I go to page 43 and it's like, 'No, I'm kind of new to this thing too and we're going to apply our principles, but we're all growing through this thing together.'" "We explore one of the core principles shaping his team through not around." "When the players felt that the coaches were in the fight with them and they said, 'Hey look, these are the things that we need to do a better job of to prepare you guys to go play mentally, physically, tactically, all those things.' You know, we started to feel that buy-in from the players and our process started to improve." "With that, let's jump into this week's conversation with my colleague, friend and Super Bowl winning head coach, Mike McDonald." Coach, we, I, have had the privilege to get to know you and the community probably doesn't know the way that we know each other other than you're the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks and I've been fortunate to work with you, you know, the last year and so maybe just in your memory, like maybe bring the listener up to speed on how we met and what kind of what started that." "Yeah, it's funny the things you don't know, you don't know, but having an idea of what we wanted to go from year one to year two and, you know, John Schneider and I had some several conversations and then from your relationship with him going back several years, we met up with you and Steve Halshka and it just became, became really clear that you had a great, like a really cool perspective as something to offer that maybe I didn't know that I needed and kind of just hit it off. Like I felt like from our first conversations, you know, not to both smoke anything but like I felt to really trustworthy and we had a lot of productive conversations and then it just hit the ground running. I felt like I felt like we just really got off to a strong start and we'd just kind of been powering through every sense." "Yeah, I didn't actually know that part of it that you don't know what you don't know, which is like actually was an asset for you." And so what I remember about our first conversation is like, oh, okay, well he works really fast. Oh yes, really thoughtful questions. Okay, the last plus. He's like demonstrating that he's a great learner and come to find out, yes, on all of those, but one of your superpowers is that you really want to understand something and then put it into action. "Well, in our first conversation with John, I mean, I'm feeling you've asked this question before but the, hey, if, you know, what percentage would you attribute your, you know, your team's performance to like mental skills or just mental aptitude? And, you know, we always throughout like a pretty big number and you're like, well, if that's actually, if you actually believe that, well, we need to put some energy behind this. And then the things that you were talking about was like, man, you know, the vision, I think that very similar, I think, John and I's initial conversations with Jody about like where we wanted to take the team. It felt, had the same feeling of like, oh, our vision for where we want to take our football team and like kind of the thing, it felt like the things that you could one add to it, but also help us get there and things that I feel like you thought were important. Like, you felt that alignment. And so that was exciting. Yeah, I think that the idea that, hold on, in for clarity, John Schneider, the general manager, the Seattle Seahawks, Mike McDonald, head coach of Seattle Seahawks, and Jody Allen, the owner. All right, so it's, you know what's cool is like, when you meet somebody and there's an alignment, that's what we're talking about. Is there was like a synergy and you were interviewing me, I was interviewing you, there was like, there was, it was just honest, like, can we vibe? Can we create something special together? Is what it felt like the conversation was? Yeah. And it was cool. Obviously, I think we did. Yeah, yeah. How about that year? It was a whirlwind, but it wasn't, it didn't, it just, it was, it's just this combination of like, it was fast, but it didn't drag on. You know, it was really exciting. I think, you know, we've had some conversations the last couple days with, with house, but there's an energy behind it. You know, from my perspective, it was, these are the things that I kind of felt like in my heart deep down that maybe at a hard time bringing out in an organized way and in a clear way and then a tactful way to communicate to people and then, you know, to be coached and to be pushed and to, you know, get uncomfortable with some things, but ultimately with the, all through the lens of trying to create, you know, the vision of, of who we want to become to those fun. Yeah, I think for folks that are in the business world, most of, most of the best practices is like they, they bring in a consultant or firm or something to help establish the culture that they want to have. And it's culture by committee. So there's five smart people on the executive team and there's a couple consultants that come in and ask really good questions and kind of get to like first principles of how they want their culture to operate. But like, let's say you and I are on that executive team and there's somebody coming in and you say, ah, I think it should be about honesty. And I go, ah, that's good. But what about like courage? Courage is honest. And you're like, yeah, yeah, that's good. Courage. And then somebody else says, well, what about curiosity? You got to be curious to be courage and to be honest. Like why don't we go and then before you know it, they're all good words. It just kind of gets muddled by like a group thing and like a desire to want to be aligned, but no one really sees themself in those first principles. The work that you did was they were, these first principles were in your heart, you went through a process to get them as clear as you possibly could and then shared them enthusiastically in a very coherent way with the organization. Well, one of the places where I felt like I needed to grow from year one to year two was just presentation skills, confidence in front of the group, taking more of an ownership behind the team. There's a lot of room for growth that I felt, you know, but the thing that actually felt that helped me the most was actually believed what I was saying, you know, and why, you know, I believe the things the first year, like a lot of the stuff that we're still that we talked about, you know, that we're that we landed on were what we talked about in year one, but just having a better understanding about where that came from, how to put an energy behind it, you know, how to how to communicate it clearer. Like that was the confidence I had coming back to the team of saying, oh, like now I now I can really share this with you in a way where I feel like you're going to understand and now we can we can get some energy behind this thing. Yeah, I see the idea success leaves clues, you just dropped a massive one. It's not the idea in it of itself that other organizations ought to adopt if they want to be a high performing organization, it's the idea that what you were saying you were completely aligned with. That to get down into the the granular level of the stories, the words, the principles that mattered most to you and so you could walk freely into any environment and be about it. Yeah, that's like the thing that often gets missed in high speed corporate environments that is honest here at the sea axis. Great job being able to do that. That is not easy to do. And I think people would be surprised to hear you say, yeah, confidence was something that I wanted to work on. Yeah, you are the head coach of the Super Bowl winning team and you're like, yeah, confidence is like a skill. Yeah, that's really cool. Well, that was something that I that we had a lot of conversations on of like, hey, well, what kind of you want a confident football team? And that was something where I think I think you use the term self-efficacy that like I probably have more more of naturally and so having awareness of that. But then how, you know, how do you train a team to communicate and to have confidence when you yourself are also working on that, you know, that's kind of doesn't align initially. So like that that was something that's been on my mind about the type of team you want to have all the time and the feeling we want to have when we go play play the game. And that but that that triggered a lot of our that triggers a lot of our language and like how we say we want to do business every day because I do have that in mind, you know, that I have how we want the team to act rather than taking on my natural disposition, you know, so yeah, that's right. So it's been fun. But people are feeding off of you because you hold so much space, leaders hold a lot of space in organizations. And so people are feeding off you. They're watching you. I've learned that. They're watching and they're watching what you say, what you don't say. More importantly, they're watching how you act. Yeah. And they're they're watching everyone in a leader leadership position about how they act under stress. Are they similar enough under stress to be trustworthy? You know, it's easy to be cool over a glass of wine or cup of tea. That's it's easy, right? Amongst friends, it's fine. But then when there's real consequences and there's like things not going right, are you still in there or have you been tricking me? Yeah, so yeah. And maybe let me just take a moment for the viewer to explain self efficacy. Efficacy means power. Self-efficacy is like, you'll like, when I apply myself, I feel like I can make a difference. I've got something behind the way that I work that can be impactful. That's what self-efficacy is. And then self-confidence is like, I think I can do that thing. I'm not totally sure, but I think I can go do that thing. You put those two together, you've got something. And those are both trainable skills. Yeah, which has been fun. Yeah, it's been fun. Alright, let's switch gear slightly and go to your origin story. It matters to everybody. They're origin story, but yours is really clear. Well, one thing that makes me a little unique to most coaches is like, I have no connection to football. I mean, my dad played like Sprint football at West Point, but that pretty much ends there. So I have two older sisters who are, I'm on record, but they're my heroes. I looked up to them big time and grew up with them, kicking soccer balls at my face when I was a baby and slinging me around on the sleds in the snow, we lived in Boston, but just always looked up to them big time. Just, matter of fact, like an hour ago, I just went on a walk and was talking to Maggie for a long time, getting caught up. And when we lived in Georgia, I grew up playing baseball, and I didn't pick up a football until, organizationally like officially until like middle school, I got started late. I was always a baseball player, played pickup games and stuff like that, but my dad would film, you know, this is, I'm young, but I'm not that young. My dad had like this giant camera, you know, they, they hand the old like, I don't even know what they're called anymore. What are those things called? VHS. It was like pre beta tape, like full handheld camera that he'd film Christmas and stuff. But he would film my football games when I started in eighth grade. And so I just, it was always a cool thing that we got to do to go back and rewatch the tape. And he, you know, he still takes me this day, but like, he'll coach me up and we watch it and then I try to find ten, you know, I just naturally try to find like tenancies was going on and report back to the, to my teammates and stuff like that. And so throughout high school, that was always interested part of like the game to me. It was like the strategy behind it. And I'd jot down like instead of having, you know, instead of having a doodle on my notepad, it would be just like football plays, you know, one time I actually, I thought I invented that like the play like power, which is like the first play every team installs for like the history of football. I thought I invented it one time and brought it to my high school coach. I was like, have we ever thought about like pulling the guard, you know, I think it would be better. He's looking at me like, yeah, dummy, like I think I've we've thought about that. But so it's just, you know, I had this natural interest into it. And I was never like the greatest athlete. So like trying to find that like extra guests of like where the play was going to go is what was interesting. How much of this was your connection with your dad because you had this unique moment to watch film? With my son, I'll say, hey, their coach films practices games. And I'll say, do you want to watch some of it? Not dad, I'm good. I guess zero interest. You can, you could never get me to take extra batting practice. But like football for some reason, I actually like enjoyed watching those, those tapes like we, we'd go right home and watch it. And how would he design those coaching sessions? He was, he was actually like, he was more complimentary, like supportive in football. Now that I've never never really thought of it through this lens now. Then like baseball was always like, ah, you know, why did you take that? It always felt like it was a, like I was always on defense, you know, but in football, it felt like really supportive. And you could, you could feel like the pride of like me making a play or, you know, running for a few yards or whatever. And so that was, that was a cool connection that we had. Did he have more personal connection to baseball himself or to football? Well, he played, he played both. He played football in college. He played football at West Point on their lightweight team. So he's a little bit more gentle or tender or supportive in when, yeah, yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe. So you felt more invested. That's defensive. Less defensive, for sure. You know, and that'd be because I took it up later and maybe he sent something that that's what I needed. You know, where baseball, I always played like super competitively. And, you know, in that area of the country, like baseball was king and like some of the top programs and top teams are out of that area. Like it was, it was, it was some highlight, like a lot of friends that played high level baseball. I wasn't one of them, but I had friends that did it. And, so I mean, when I started playing in high school, I ended up getting injured. I told people I retired in high school, you know, but I ended up coaching my senior year. I'd, like, I had to be around the team. And so I'd film practice and I'd coach the linebackers. And I just wanted to be around around the game. You said I had to. That's like, you desperately needed to be a part of something or you had to because it was part of the class. No, like I, I, I wanted to be a part, I, I felt like I was a, like I was like the captain of the team, you know, and I can't, like, can't leave the boys out the dry. You know, so you get a, I want to be a part of it. And then the strategy part of the component too was still like it'd be a part of that as well. So that's where the itch started to happen. Funny Mastery is brought to you by Athena. So optimism often gets mistaken for wishful thinking. 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You know what I like about that story is that you took an adversity and whatever your makeup is is that you didn't you didn't this was not a demonstration of resilience. Resilience is you got knocked back and you figured out how to put your foot in the ground and keep fighting for it. That's not what this is. This is like, oh, of course you didn't want to be hurt, right? Of course you wanted to play the, but you you it sounds like and how I know you is like, okay, well that this is the scenario. So how do we how do we create a better option out of the scenario? Yeah, that's right. Well, let me go do this film stuff. Let me think about strategy that so you you're really what we would call psychologically agile. You look at the facts, you adjust accordingly to keep moving forward in a way that is, I don't know, optimized or desirable or interesting. Yeah, sure. Yeah, so that's a that's a core capability that you had even at a young age. Let me go back. One more one more turn here. When your dad was coaching you, what do you what stands out more than anything else? Something he said something he didn't say that was an indelible moment for you. And football or life if you want to take it there. To my dad, there's like, there's like a right and a wrong way all the time. You know, it's very, it's very important like order is important. Things aren't as great to him, you know, in really any situation like there's a right way to go about things. There's not a right way to go about things. Right way to treat people or wrong way to treat people. Doesn't leave like the biggest space for like innovation and creativity, but it also like it shows in towards a clarity, you know, in some of the situation I'm sure we haven't here. And that's probably how I that's had an effect on me. Having known you, I know that you're saying that has an effect on me. That's I'm assuming that's the case. That's good. Okay. And what do you think that effect is? What is the upside down side? Well, I do I do I really feel like it's really it's imperative that we have clarity here. You know, if I'm a player and you're not and it's not incredibly clear to me, like what's the expectation on really a just day-to-day basis? Like I have a hard time, I would have a hard time operating. the way that we expect you to operate on and off the field and to have success, because it's like, well, do you want me to go here or do you want me to go there, you know? So how do you show, what are the mechanisms you and the coaches here use to show somebody with great clarity what good is or what great is? Well, it's, it's, I feel like we try to constantly reinforce it. And it starts with our language about like how we want to play the game. But there's this, it's just a constant reinforcement of, of, um, of how we want to play what makes a see-hawk, um, and then, you know, systematically with our coaches, it's, it, you know, we put a, we take a lot of pride in like, doing a lot of the thinking for our players and, and working through those sit like these complex, these more complex like football systems and whittling it down to, you know, a directive where a player can now go executed at a high level and, and it's going to work for them. You know, that's, that's, uh, there's, there's some magic behind that, you know, but if I, if I didn't do my homework as a coach or I, um, and I don't really have a great way to explain it, I'm not coaching it in this kind of, this, this, um, just like it, this, like, um, this, this, like, elegant simplicity behind, behind, like what we're asking you to do and the systems aren't really well oiled out. Well, it's kind of shamed on us at that point, you know, like, I think we're doing what we'd be doing our players are to service. I love that you said elegant simplicity. This is where I was going to go and my question was walk through the agitating state to get to elegant simplicity. So there's an agitation of fog, a, there's like a, a haze, you know, and at, like really a prickly state to be able to work through to get to the elegance of anything. So can you uniquely, can you just illuminate the way that you, you want something to be great, right? You are trying to figure out a complex scenario, um, with a complex set of personalities and skill sets on a team. And you're trying to create something that is simple and elegant. So that's the desired outcome. How do you work through when it's hard and it's not clear and it doesn't just snap into place and somebody else goes, yeah, but, I think, uh, I think we put a lot of focus on understanding, like, like, go a level deeper. You know, so like, what are, what are the, like, mechanisms that make, like, the task go, you know, so like, if we're, if we're game playing for an offense, for instance, like, what's, what's their operation like? You know, where is it rooted in? You know, can we get to the nuts and bolts of this thing? And then, you know, what's the, what's the technique that we're trying to, well, where does that come from? Can we, can we kind of, kind of conception? Can we go to like the next layer of like the dream state to kind of unlock, you know, some, some ideas about, well, maybe if we, maybe if we just kind of move that lever a little bit, maybe that, maybe what's the effect as we kind of work our way back up towards the problem? Um, but you got to be comfortable in that. Like, you get, you, what's so hard about that for you? I enjoy that. I enjoy that. Yeah. I was going to say, I, I, so I want to get to the hard part. Like, you like that, your systems thinker, you like to think first principles, you're like to understand how the mechanics of things and tinkering and try to figure it out. So you, you can create something sweet. Yeah. There's friction when we don't, like, we, like, if some were working with, doesn't think that way. To me, it's like, I see that as taking the easy way out sometimes, you know, where that's not really like a see-hawk way of operating. We're like, well, why don't we just go just home and do whatever? It's like, well, not only is that not probably the best way to do it. But it's also, you're not helping our player at the bat. Like, are you doing everything you can? I mean, we're here to serve the players. There's a, there's an incongruency there for, like, what our actual role is, you know, and that, that's, that creates friction sometimes, you know, but that's good. You know, we got to work through that stuff. And how do you do it when somebody, when a teammate looks like or feels like they're not pulling their weight or they're just not wanting to go explore something because they're tired, you know, they got a lot on their plate. And here you are thinking about this, like, thing. And they're like, look, I got, I got another 80 hours for work to do by tomorrow. You know, I don't, I don't, I don't, we haven't, we haven't had a lot of experiences where I felt like someone just, like, is just lazy and, you know, they don't want to do a good job or whatever. And that, that, that's, it speaks to John and the folks that, like, bring people into our organization who we've hired. But the way we communicate with our, with our people is, hey, if our inputs are right and our, and our spirit is in the right place or intentions are in the right place, well, we're working together. You know, so like, we're going to, we're going to, like, you, like, do you like say, we're going to work this problem together and see if we can kind of come to a better way. So, and there, and it happens a lot on offense where I'm not, I'm not like an expert on offensive football, but I can understand systems in here, how we're coaching it and, you know, you kind of look at it at different lens. So there's a lot of times where we're having conversations, okay, well, what are we, what are we, what's, what are we expecting from him here? And where's that rule coming from? Okay, that makes sense. Okay, that's cool. Okay, well, let's, we're on the right page here, it feels like it. Let's just, let's keep going on the right, down this path with the player and let's see if we get a different result. Maybe we're just, you know, maybe we got some different results that we didn't like, but we like our process. Sometimes it says, hey, like, our intention is the right spot, but I just feel like, I feel like we could make this simpler for the guy. Like, I'm not, I'm not, well, we're seeing on tape is not decisive enough for like, for our style. I feel like what he's, it's not clear what we're asking to do. Maybe, let's rethink about what we want to say here or how we're coaching it, you know, like that, that's the approach. You've got a first principle called through not around. And it's one of the core tenets of your cultural model. Can you illuminate through a story or something that is some, a moment in time that you remember, maybe it was this season that it was a through not around moment. Yeah, through not around is, is, is how we want. It's like, look, we're going to earn what we, what we achieve. You know, we're not going to create excuses. We're going to communicate in a way where it's very matter of fact when we're like solving problems. So it's like, I'm taking the way I'm not even thinking about how I feel in this moment. Like, we're just, all we're doing is working the problem together so we can, it's better for us. It's not a, the personal thing is just kind of out of it. Systematically too, it's, hey, you know, we want to be a violent team and a physical team. So it kind of, it, it's got its roots all about all through our program. But the probably the biggest part, biggest form of adversity I've had in the NFL is when I became a coordinator in Baltimore. And, and we, you know, and it's, again, you're, you're trying your best about building a team. And, you know, we focused a lot on scheme that year trying to get our system put in and making sure we had all the calls. And we started out playing pretty decent defense. And we had, and so we got the second week of the year and we played the dolphins and they were rolling. And we played well like the first recourse and we had like a multiple score lead. I think we were up like three or four touchdowns. And then it was just, just, just, just bombs and the fourth quarter. Like, they got, I mean, you let, if you let Tyree kill wide open on a nine ball, nobody within 30 yards of the guy, like shame on the coach, like that is, that's a reflection of us. And I think the feeling that I had from our team in that moment, did you lose this game? We ended up losing the game by three touchdowns? We're up three touchdowns, I think in the fourth quarter. It's really hard to come back in the NFL from three touchdowns. Yeah, yeah, that's what like in the Super Bowl, they're like, well, why, you know, didn't it feel great that you had the game locked up in the four, I'm like, bull crap. There's, you know, like, I've lived that, you know, we're going to play through the echo of the last whistle until this thing's over with. But so it's a great lesson. In that intensity, the echo of the last whistle, you, you earned that, that commitment through being burned in the past from going through a, well, I think that the moral, and the other part of the story was the feeling I had of our team, we lacked confidence, you know, that the feeling that I want for our team here in Seattle wasn't mirrored from our unit in, in, at Baltimore, at that point in the year. And so instead of pointing fingers, it just, it felt like we came in here and we start playing the blame game. Not only is that not the right thing to do, but I don't think it isn't the right thing to do like tactically because I think, I think I'm jack, I'm think I'm really the root here, like I'm the kind of the common denominator and, um, in Baltimore, in Baltimore, did people, did people square up with you and say, hey, listen, no, I, I, I felt like, I felt like it was, it was me and then, and then as a reflection of me, like how we did business a little bit on defense and, um, didn't feel true to like how we really wanted to be. And so it didn't feel real at that point. So I said, well, hey, we got to, we got to square up with this thing and, go through this problem, you know, together. And I think what one thing that happened was is, um, when the players felt that the coaches were in the fight with them and they'd say, hey, look, these are the things that we need to do a better job of to prepare you guys to go play mentally, physically, tactically, all those things. We felt, I start, you know, we started to feel that buy in from the players and our, and our process started to improve. And then, you know, we didn't get it fixed overnight, but like, you did feel like we started to, you know, to make a move. Ultimately, you know, we got Roku on that year and we ended up playing great defense. But, um, for a minute there, you know, it was Harry. And, but if we didn't have that mentality, I don't know if we would have, you know, seen those, like marginal gains, you know, kind of on the rebound there. It's easy to say through, not around when you hold all of the power when you're the boss. And, Like, we're gonna go through it together. And when somebody else is like, I don't know, they made a mistake or they made a weird call and they're feeling vulnerable in that situation. How do you demonstrate the required unity that you're in it with them? Do you have any memory of times when people have brought it straight to you? And they've said, okay, through and on around. - Yeah. - Which can we sit down? - Yeah, there's been some, since you have to have those quite a bit in my role here. And I actually, I tell myself, like, if it's a conversation that I don't wanna have, before I'll say, like, hey dude, I'll tell myself, hey, through and on around. You know, like, you gotta put your money where your mouth is on this. But I also feel like it's the spirit in which you wanna have those conversations. So like, it's not like you're just coming at someone with like a blunt instrument and just bang over the head. Boom, you know, it's like there's a spirit behind what we're trying to do. The lens of like, what's best for us? What's best for them? - Yeah, that makes it takes the edge off a little bit, you know? - You did something. You set the scene with you and me right away is that when we're going through your model and you're like, okay, there's something here through and not around, like this really matters to me that we're gonna have honest conversations. We're gonna work the problem. We're gonna go through things and then you pause and you said, and that means me too. Like, sometimes people gotta come straight at me and say, listen, I need a through and not around conversation. - Yeah. - And at that moment, I was like, oh, he wants to be coached too. He wants, he knows that he's part of the solution and part of the problem. And like, so you do something. Even that little gesture you did when we first started to know each other, you do something to let people know that this isn't through and not around just for you. That is for all of us. - Well, I'm glad that that comes across that way. And I think it's one of those things where, if that's really what you want it to be about and like what you said earlier in the conversation, if you demonstrate that every day about how you wanna do business, that's probably where it's gonna actually happen. Like you said, people are watching, the players are watching, our coaches are watching, I've fallen short on this, so plenty of times. But if I think if they feel that that's genuinely how you wanna operate, that's where you start to build that trust when it comes down to having those things, you know? - Whatever, son. - Cool, let's, all right, let's go back to Georgia. We're not done that, so we've talked about dad, we've talked about Maggie. - Bonnie Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Hiring Pro. When you're building a small business, every new hire has the potential to make a real impact. The right person, they can bring fresh energy and new ideas and really help the whole company move forward. 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Now, if you haven't already checked them out, LinkedIn Hiring Pro can really help your business. - Get started by posting your job for free at LinkedIn.com/FindingMastery. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's LinkedIn.com/FindingMastery. - Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. Travel a lot at Finding Mastery. And sometimes travel makes it tricky to eat well. Best intentions and then you're at the airport. And then suddenly, the only options around you are the ones that you'd rarely choose at home. Something I come back to often is that discipline isn't really about willpower in the moment. It's often about choice architecture. Setting up your environment ahead of time so that the easy choice and the good choice are the same one. That's the role David plays for me on the road. The gold bar, it's their flagship high protein density, great texture, flavors that make it easy to stick with. So when I throw a few in the bag before my trip, I've already made the decision. The hard moment later takes care of itself. And the team here at Finding Mastery, they love the bars as well. They are ripping through them in the Finding Mastery lab. Salted peanut butter and fudge brownie seem to be the fan favorites right now. They have built something with real rigor in a crowded, sometimes ambiguous space like nutrition. That matters when it's something that you reach for again and again. David bars are now available in major retailers like Walmart and Target. And if you'd like to buy them directly and get a special offer for being a Finding Mastery listener, head to davidprotein.com/findingmastery. Where right now, if you buy four packs, you'll get the fifth one for free. Again, that's davidprotein.com/findingmastery. Keep going. (laughs) Well, when I retire, that was my senior year high school. So time to go to college. I ended up deciding to go to the University of Georgia. I wanted to play Ivy League baseball for Harvard, you know. This is another through not around, there you go. And so like, I wanted to play Ivy League baseball over I think we're extra time of this today. And life comes at you fast. Hey, buddy, you're not smart enough or athletic enough to play for these guys. And your SAT scores back that up and you're 40 time back set up as well. So you're not going to Harvard. So. - Was this a big dream, big ambition? - Yeah, yeah. You're kind of like a kid in yourself, you know, like. - Could you put your chips on the line, so to speak? Like you made it, you declared this is your goal? - I think I played it too safe, that was a bummer. You know, it's like, I wouldn't say it's a regret 'cause life happens for a reason, but that's something that I've like given myself a tough time with over the years. Like, you didn't really go for it. You know, you didn't like put it on the line, put it out there, do the daily things that you need to be able to do, you know. Do I think I could have played baseball there? Yeah, yeah, I think I like, I think I had it in my body to get that done and just didn't do it, just didn't really go for it hard enough. - Okay. - Probably for your failure honestly, yeah. - Yeah. - Open that up a little bit. What were you really afraid of? What does failure mean in that scenario? - Well, at that part of my life, I hadn't had to work. I didn't really know what like hard work, I need to learn what like the hard work was. You know, so fast forward to like working at Cedar Sholes, high school when I was in undergrad, you know, becoming a GA and a student assistant and you know, working the hours that it takes and like, and getting your butt kicked a little bit like, you know, just not getting, you know, missing up an install or, you know, it's a big high level football university of Georgia. Like when you mess up, it's a little pressure cooker over time, like you feel that as a GA and as a young coach, but like, but the work was there. Like that's when I really understood what hard work meant and again, another threw it on around, like, and that's a real, that's a real thing, you know. - If you strained, if you worked really hard, if you applied yourself and gave it everything that you had, what was at risk? - Well, what I learned was that freed you up, you know, like-- - What freed you up? - It freed you up to go for it. - No, yeah, but what you're saying is like, you didn't really go for baseball for Harvard. - Right. - You said it, you tried a little bit. - Yeah. - It was gonna be a nice thing, but you didn't really go for it. - Right. - So I'm taking the opposite side. Like if you would have really gone for it, put it all there, but the chips, you know, on the line, so to speak, what was that risk? You said fear of failure, but I'm trying to understand like what, what were you really afraid of? - I think I had a, I think it was important for me to be viewed a certain way in terms of like a stature, you know. So kind of, it would have been a knock on like my own identity that I saw myself. So it's so brave to see like, oh, you're like, not only did you not go for it, but your scores don't back it like, you don't even, you lack the criteria too. Like it's not like you're wronged. - But you had a story, well, I didn't really go for it. So of course I wasn't. If I would have applied myself, I could have. - Yeah, that makes sense. - Yeah, what you're describing, I hope the viewer really can hear this and watch this because this is what I believe is one of the greatest constrictors or a person's potential. Because I have so much regard and respect or the people who put it on the line, that vulnerability to really go for something is so special because it could fall apart. And then you are left knowing that you did not have what it took to be able to meet the demands of something or the opportunity. - What I've learned is like, I don't really know what it means to not have what it takes. Like I don't think that's really a thing. Because the process is gonna like, unless there's like one finite thing you work up to like, just one thing, maybe it's like a gold medal, but like still, it's still like winning a Super Bowl, for example, like so much has to happen right that is really out of control. If you really wanna be honest to win a Super Bowl, but we put everything into it and like for, and a lot of the teams did too, but and we've had this conversation, but if we fell short, I'm pretty confident that I'd feel the same way about it or what we did and what our football team became. - Yeah, I would too. - So it's not like we wouldn't have had what it takes. You know what I mean? - This is you knowing the value the sting of not getting into Harvard, and the honest story is that I didn't really apply myself because I wanted to save my stature, my identity, my sense of self and the way people saw me. The reason I know this so well, Mike, is this was my story. And I think this is more people's story than you and I know. This is my story. This is what happened to me for most of my life until I've faced it. I was like, what am I doing? Like, why am I playing this game? Like, what am I afraid of? I'm afraid of looking stupid. I'm afraid of looking like, I don't have what it takes. But really, if you honestly work a process, you deeply invest in the inputs, you start to quickly learn like, there's a lot that has to fall into place to get these extraordinary outputs. Like a Super Bowl. Yeah. It's liberating. Which part is liberating? It's investment on inputs. Yeah, like, even pursuing coaching. I didn't think I was going to be a head coach at the NFL. But you didn't have that as a goal. No, but I just loved coaching, you know, and I didn't want to be on a certain trajectory. I didn't, you know, I didn't want to coach big time football, but I didn't really know what I looked at. I didn't, there's a whole world out there. I just wasn't really exposed to. I thought I knew what I wanted, and I just didn't really. But I just, but it wasn't part of like my daily inputs. I was like, oh, what if I wasn't worried about that? I was just, I was actually working, like, to your point. I was working like an honest process behind it. And then I just, that, that let me like, let go of who I was, where I was going to become a coach or now you're incredibly blessed like that the Ravens call you one day, and they want interview. You know, like, you know, that doesn't happen, everybody, but would have that have happened if I didn't work the way that I did for the four years. Or five years that I was coaching private, you know, probably not, you know, so football was kind of like that. Like, I felt like I put my whole, I felt like I got the best version of myself with football. Like, and I'm okay with like, how my career ended in football because. Playing as a player. Yeah, because I knew that like, I knew how hard I worked as a football player. Like, that's when I learned, you know, different than baseball. And in the relationship that your dad created that space to keep pushing, exploring, and figuring out and unlocking as opposed to like, you having to defend yourself in the agitation to get coached. Yep. That's something. Yeah. That's why I don't know, works out. In this, yeah. Do you, I don't know if you relate to this or not, but like, how can you speak to folks that might wrestle with imposter syndrome? And I'll paint us in there. I don't know if you ever worked through this yourself, but like, I never played the game at a high level, you know, like, and here I am. If they only knew, like, I could barely catch a ball on a 20 yard out route. Like, you could, or whatever. Yeah. What position did you play? It doesn't matter, but live-backer and running-back, you know. Yeah, that's what I figured. You know, like, so like, do you, was that ever a thing? Oh, yeah. I still feel that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How do you, how do you work it? Another one of the conversations we had last year, I just, I don't know if it's completely imposterous, but we had that kind of going into the Super Bowl of, I think, our conversation was something along the lines of, like, hey, we grew up watching these, like, epic documentaries, that flip, you know, it's like, there's a Super Bowl when you grew up and, you know, they got the commercials and it's the party and it's like, it's this thing on a pedestal that, like, giants are part of, you know, the Bill Cowars of the world and, you know, Jimmy Johnson's in, like, you know, Troy Brett, Brett, Brett, Brett, Brett, Brett, we're running around with his helmet off. Like, that's some epic, epic stuff. You know, another movie, you know, there's all these, and now here we are, you know, how are we, are we, are we sure we're part of that? Like, that crew, you know, lucky, yeah, like, what, you know, like, are we, do we really deserve to be part of this, like, history, you know, this, this kind of like, class of what, you know, because that's the way I saw when I was growing up, you know, for my, just as a kid and being a fan of the game, I want to pause that because this is really important is that you had a, I don't call it a nine year old or 10 year old model of the Super Bowl. Yeah. And then, and it was good model, it was what a nine or 10 year old would look at and be like, oh, look at these got bigger than life. And, you know, they're, these are the heroes are, these are like, these are absolute legends. And that's a good model for a nine or 10 year old, the unsophisticated nine or 10 year old. And then fast forward, you know, 20, 30 years. And then you're in the same kind of space, you're like, oh, but I'm still operating from the old model. And you also know the adult truth, which is like you poured everything into an honest process. Yeah. That was, that's, that's like the, you know, the medicine that was like, oh, what are you guys actually? What have you, what have you done? What have you proven over the course of our, of our process or our year, year and a half or two years, however, how far you want to go back. And there's like a lot of great evidence there, you know? And so if you, I had to like, take myself out of that, I had to like, look at it from a different angle, you know, like, oh, if I'm just third party observer coming from, from this different like wider lens, like that's, you guys, yeah, you guys, like you, you should be here and you should, you should not because it was just like we've, like I've told our team from when I felt like we got to that point, I was like, we should, we should get to the point where we should, we should expect to win every game we play if we play our best football, you know, because we've earned that right through, you know, who we are and what we've done and all that. And so going back to that thought process was really helpful, you know, going into the last few days before the, before the game. People ask me all the time, they're like, like what, I don't want to say it out loud, but I'm kind of struggling or I have struggled with an imposter syndrome, like, you know, and I stop right away and I kind of grin, I'm like, welcome to the club. Yeah. If you're trying to do something special, you don't know if you have what it takes. You also know that you got some breaks somewhere in there. And like, you can't quite sort out why, but you do need to honor all of that and at the same time pause and be like, wait, hold on. What are those things that I've honestly been investing in that I know is real? And am I okay with however this thing goes? I want it so bad, but am I okay no matter how this thing goes? And am I going to keep investing in an honest way on the inputs? The things I can control. I think it's good for you. Like, you do. Yeah. It means you're out on the edge. You're on the edge. You're also like, there's a humility to it. Like, you realize it's not, there's other forces of play. You know, it keeps you, like, I keep you on the edge in terms of, am I in the sense of urgency and behind our process, you know, like, am I really throw in what we should be doing to get prepared, you know, get prepared? No, I think on the other hand, you need to be able to have those conversations yourself to get you ready to go execute and go go perform. But boy said, like, if you catch me walking around our building, like, how we got this, we're going to whip ass this week. Like, just punch me in the face because like, that's, that's not, that's not how I operate. You know, we will never say that, you know, as much as we're, you know, the points, all that stuff, that's just, that's not even in our stratosphere of like, of how we think. What's it like to pick a handful of folks that you're like, okay, this athlete or these athletes, they challenge me. They're challenging. And I'm not saying it's negative, but like, they're holding a standard. They challenge me in whatever ways. And maybe a couple of athletes that you're like and how to do the lens of some stories where you're like, oh my God, like, this, I've learned so much. It could be the same athlete. Yeah, if you guys come to mine, I mean, a coup on offense, we won, you could pick up. He, he, he, um, one, just like the resume that is coming from. But I get, again, his process, the level of like, we took, we say, shocking here, but like, the level of detail that he has of understanding of like, how he operates the details of, not only his job, but how the whole offense works together. To me, it's inspiring. I'm not, I'm not the one drawing up our offensive scheme nor am I one like coaching the exes and knows behind it. But to be on that, you really respect like, that is what we owe our players all the time. You know, he's a professional sportsman. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And, and the way he's with L.A. for, for a lot of years and had a lot of success. And so he's seen a way of doing things for a while that has been really effective and, um, and he has his own thoughts on the process and what works and what doesn't. And he's not afraid to have those conversations with you, which I really, I appreciate that, you know, I'm talking about as a team, like as a from the head coaching perspective process, travel, you know, scheduling, reps and practice, tempo. I mean, all those different things. Uh, he has a, he has a different perspective on it coming from a completely different, like worldview from where I came from. And, um, again, another three-dollar round thing. He's not afraid to like bring it up. And, um, and I appreciate that. You know, that's a lot of fun. How much do you think that has to do with the way you say, hey, bring it to me? Like, and I mean that. Like, yeah, I think, uh, and how much is it like he's going to do it no matter what? Well, with Cooper, I'd probably do it no matter what. I mean, he talked to Clint, good bit last year. He talked to Clint, our, our coordinator, a little, a good bit last year. You know, he's got a lot of thoughts on it. But as he should, you know, I mean, again, he's earned, like, he's earned that from how he operates in his track record and, and we've asked, and I've asked for it, you know, I've asked for it. I think it doesn't take a lot of conversations from, I believe at least, like, the players are going to, they know and they communicate. So if you're going to bring something up and then shoot a guy down once he comes to you like that. The word is going to get around quickly. I think one of the strengths that we have here is I'm not a, I'm not like coming to the table saying, Hey, look, this is the, this is the seahawk way of doing it. This is go to page 43. You'll figure out what you do on July 3rd at three o'clock. This is the, this is the formula. It's like, No, I'm kind of new to this thing too. And we're going to apply our principles, but like, but we're all going through this thing together. And so we are excriming ideas out. And we are kind of in search for like the best way of doing things for us. And turns out, like it's not just me making those decisions all the time. You know, to me, I'm responsible for what shows up. But the ideas can come from anywhere. Bodymaster is brought to you by granola. Here's something that I think most of us miss without even really realizing it. Every conversation that we have has two layers happening at once. There's the conversation, the obvious conversation with the words themselves. And then there's everything else underneath. That's the emotional language, the subtle tones of voice, micro expressions, the brief pauses before someone answers. That second layer is really rich with information. And in meetings, it's easy to miss it when our heads are down and we're taking notes. 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When you've got tension with an athlete and let's say that you've been coaching hard on something and you've been working it. Let's say it's just game day for an example. And they make the same mistake that you've been working on. And it's costly, let's say. What do you do to do erode trust and what do you do that builds trust? I'm not perfect in this area. When you're at the worst, when you're at your best, at our worst, it's a knee jerk reaction. At our best, we're playing the long game. We're not me. Yeah. Well me too. Yeah. You know. And is that something? How do you prime yourself to not be reactive in a high stress environment when there's a costly mistake when something that somebody has been working on and they screwed it up? Well, I feel like I need to be I need to be I need to be in my pocket. You know, sometimes I feel like that'll get displaced to the player. You know, that that happens. I can think of like times where that's happened where yeah, I'm I'm displacing my frustration with myself to somebody else. You know, so it's like well, I need to handle my business first. You know, if I'm going to so I can so I can handle that like my job that my job on game day is to lead the team and to handle the game in the situations and it's not to have emotional reactions to things that happen on the field, you know, so if I'm not in the right headspace or in the right like preparation, then those some that's when those that's why I feel like I'm most like vulnerable to those decisions. But if I'm if I'm on my stuff the way I should be, you're kind of like in you're in you're in it with them at that point, you just you got to move and shake and adjust and we can deal with like those some of those more drastic decisions at the right time. No, it's not that right then is not the right time to deal with those things. What do you think the athlete needs after a mistake that was obviously his his fault? Yeah. What do you think an athlete needs in that moment? Support. You know, now like there's different ways of doing it, but like I'm just it's about moving on to the next to the next thing. You know, like what's important now is we go to the next play where, you know, we say we're a moment by moment team going and trying to win another moment, you know, going and trying to win another play. How you get that done is probably unique to the relationship we have with the player, what works best with them. Maybe sometimes not even me or a coach. Sometimes it's a no teammate, just just just different ways to communicate, but how we do it together is really important. And you gave you just gave it a way to like another clue of your successes that it's the relationship. If you have an honest relationship or you've built the relationship, you'll have a better chance at supporting them because maybe that support is like, hey, you know, you know what you need to do. Right. Maybe that's supportive, right? Maybe another way to support is like, all right, I got you. We'll figure this thing out. Like keep ballin. There's good in you, you know, like there's more in you or something like that. If I'm doing a right and the player has had a hard time doing that thing, for me to continually put him in that situation is on me. So a lot of times you feel that responsibility like, shoot, I shouldn't have done that. Like I knew I knew he had a hard time with that. Like it's not his fault. He's shown that he hasn't been able to do that. Like who's false is that? Right. You asked him to do something you can't do. You're going to ask me, you're going to ask Mike McDonald to go dunk. I can't dunk shame on you. You know, it's not my fault. I can't dunk, you know, so like that's how I look at it. And then if you've gotten to the point where you're going to ask him to do something in a game and they don't do it and they've shown the ability to do it and the intent in the right place and the inputter in the right place, man, is that like it's so smooth. You know, it's really just a non-issue. It's just a non-issue. It's a bummer, but it's really should be a non-issue, not always that way, but that's what you want. You've got Sam, Donald, who came into the Seattle Seahawks with like a narrative about him. You got a young coach, you know, that was a bit of like, the community was not sure what they were going to get. How do you navigate that with one of the star players, that that relationship, that kind of narrative around both of you guys? You address it, do you talk about it? Like how do you work that relationship? We never talked about him. You didn't? No. Especially from a defensive perspective, like Sam needs to get coached. He needs to get coached hard as does the rest of the team, you know, but like, I'm not the defensive expert. I'm not the quarterback footwork expert. That's not my area. Now, if Sam was like tripping about not working in practice, whatever, which would never happen. To me, that's, that's an issue, but that's a non-issue. My thing for Sam is he needs someone in his corner. He needs, he needs from the head coach. And it's not like I'm just making up support for him. It's like, okay, well, let me see how this guy operates. Well, it's pretty cool. Like, his team introspect the heck out of him. He's got a great way of like being a competitor and having an edge to him and being real, but like, it's just a great, he's got a great, like, balance where he can kind of bob and weave through those, like, modes. And it's just like, well, what does he need? You know, let's, let's give him what he needs to, for the best, you know, for the best, as best as we know, let's give him what he needs. And, and let's just, let's go from there. But if you see all the things you like seeing on a daily basis and then, you know, like a game, like the, we make such a big deal, a Rams game, but like, you know, games and go your way, well, I just saw all the inputs that I liked and I liked all the inputs. And so, who am I, I'm not going to, can't switch up now. This is, you know, we're kind of, we're kind of all in here together. You know, like, I've signed off. I'm what we've been doing for the last X amount of days, weeks, months. We're in the fight together at this point. You know, so that, that's, that's probably the way I looked at it. But honestly, try not to make it more than it is. You know, for folks that like love the NFL and they, they might know some of the backstory of players or, or, or histories of folks, but they, the, the most intimate connection is on Sunday when they watch. What are some of the things that folks would be surprised to know or would not have that surprised you, you know, when you first got into the NFL about leadership, about locker room rules, about like, what are some things that are interesting to you still? Like, I cut my teeth through like scheme. You know, like, I didn't play. So my job was to find patterns and breakdowns and, you know, where to draw lines on a sheet of paper, how to install. But like, at the end of the day, I joke with people like, we sell football widgets. You know, the things that are successful that makes team successful and football are, are those principles are the same across. I would imagine most teams in all different industries and all different shapes and sizes, you know. And, and it shows up. It's just not an vacuum. Like, you can have different coordinators, you can have different coaches, you can have different players, but like, it's, it's all connected, you know, like, special teams is connected to offense and offense is connected to defense. And the Office of Lineplay is connected to our D lineplay and how well our rookies do is connected to the, what the veterans are doing. You know, it's just, everything has, it plays playing, it's all, it all matters. You know, it all matters. And so, and then there's this synergy behind it. And that's, I mean, that's one of our core principles, obviously. But, I really believe that there's There's a power there if you get it right. - What would people be shocked to know about the NFL that they don't know? - I think people to most fans, the NFL is like contracts and big names and superstars and who's the defensive genius. You know, it's like, okay, yeah, like great players matter. You need great players, coaches matter, but like it all matters. And there's a multiplication effect behind it. You know, one of the things that if you were to ask me that question, I would say just how honest the locker room can be. The coaches rooms sometimes are not honest, but the locker rooms, like they're really honest rooms because they're counting on each other and they tell the truth to each other. And when they don't, they're such tension, they figure out a way to kind of break through that to get to it. Like that's one of the things that you buy that. It's really refreshing, you know, where people threw not around is what we're talking about, but it's really refreshing, you know. - It's like, I've always said, players know. Well, what do they know? You know, they know what the organization's like. They just, they just know. They know, like, so if you go around trying to fool them, like, shame on you, you just, you have no idea. - How do you think they know? - I don't know, they just know. I mean, probably to your point, this is honest, you know, like, they're living it. And ultimately, like, there are livelihoods on the line. You know, so they're, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know, they just know. - If we knew what you knew, how would we be a better leader? - I think that there's just something to be said for like, being like a authenticity to the process. Like, if it's a real honest process, we're not trying to fool anybody. You're not trying to pull a fast one. You know, like, you actually understand what's going to work, how your industry works, what your customer wants. You're not going to fool your customer, I think. I imagine it's a pretty easy parallel. Like, whoever you're serving is going to know whether or not, like, you know, you can go to a company, you can go to a restaurant and know, like, do they care about the customer? You know, you can feel it. Like, there's, we joke about like certain brands that we have relationships with, like, it's just, do they really care that I, what I want? Are they have me in mind with what they're doing? Do they really, some companies you feel that way? Like, that's a real thing. - What does it mean to be the type of coach that players want to play for? But leaders, that employees want to be led by. Like, but players to be coached by. I think if we can create, we're trying to create an environment where the short answer is where you feel like you can be your best version of yourself and play your best football. So how does that come to life? Well, to me, it's not like a rigid set of like, you got to, like, the same thing goes back to like the coach's playbook. Like, you don't have to do, okay. Like, you don't have to do items A through double Z in that order and you'll play your best football. It's like, there's space, there's space where I can be myself and I can be like, I'm mac and loosen up a little bit. You know, I can be, you know, I can move and shake and have some freedom to like, okay, well, the coach trusts me that I've shown that like my inputs are right. And I just, and maybe I was all sillier. Maybe I was, maybe I was, I did go over the edge. You know, it's like, tastes chasing edge. Maybe I did go the edge a little bit but I'm not gonna get burned for it because we do feel like we're in it together and so we're, it's that kind of ongoing like give and take relationship of, there's that sense of urgency to push the envelope, to chase the edge, you know, to be great, to hold yourself to a high standard. But it's also, you know, room to wiggle a little bit and have some innovation and to try something that might not work. But maybe it does, now you get a huge payoff. Like, there's a dichotomy there but if you get the balance right, I think, I think you can create something pretty cool. You got a full, full life, full plate. You are a head coach. We're all winning head coach. - Crazy. - You're a head coach. You're a husband, you're a father, you're a son. You've got lots of really important roles, you're a brother. How has being a father impacted this very full life that you have? - Yeah. It's a few things. The first thing is just, is perspective. Again, you're playing the long game. You're playing the long game. Like, what actually, what are we actually doing here? Patience, you know, like I feel, I didn't know I was gonna be this way with Jack that like, I just like love watching him do his thing. You know, and I love it. And if he screws up, it's like, ah, you know? But his eyes are in the right spot or like, oh, that was cute that it was a crude screw up or he's always pissed. Now he's crying. It's like, well, like, yeah, I'd rather not cry, but like, maybe how do I get him not to cry? You know, like, what does he need? You know, something's up. You know, he's not just doing it because I thought I would probably have like less patience with him. You know, where it's like, hey, you gotta be a good boy. You know, like, I thought, I kind of thought that was about myself a little bit. So I'm like, puzzling surprised, I guess. But seeing through the lens, they're like, okay, this is someone that I really obviously really care about. But players are the same way, the people that you work with are the same way. Let's play a little bit of a longer game here, you know? And lightens you up a little bit, you know? We've loosened you up a little bit. - Yeah, when I was, when I first had my son, maybe the similar age, his wife said, I didn't know what to say when I was working with people. I, so I watched you. I'm like, man, he's like, he's, he's on it. You were on it this year. You were really on it. And I didn't know what to say. I'd sit down with an athlete or, you know, some extraordinary performer in some vein. And I was like, everything was so jostled because of this new life in my life that I, I listened a lot. And I lost my, I lost my voice. And so I was wondering how it affected you because that was definitely not it. - Interesting. - Yeah, that was definitely not how you did it. - Sometimes I'm thinking like, what would I say to Jack? - What do you do? - All the time. - Yeah, I overthink like how to communicate with him. Yeah, it's a, something that I'm trying to be better. What is your art long for with him in life? Legacy has always been, and it like a, like something important to me. Not like, hey, I want to be like the best guy or looked at the best, but like what you've created, like how you've created an impact is, you know, like for the long haul, like can you create something real, you know, like that's, that's, like that was like the pitch as a head coach coming to Seattle. It was like, this is what we want to create here, you know, this something special that people can be proud of and have like, have pride in the team and the community and like sense of connection and, you know, have people look up here to the Pacific Northwest but like, hey, what the heck's going on up there? Like, you know, and then that inspires me. And then just this kind of snowball effect of, of coolness, you know, that's, that's the big vision. - Make it sweet. - Make it sweet. - Make it sweet. - That's right. - Bonnie Master is brought to you by AG1. The people that I am fortunate to work with, the ones who sustain high performance over decades, they aren't chasing the next big thing. That's not how it works. What they do is they invest in fundamentals, things that they can trust, day after day after day and that's exactly what AG1 has been for me. For nearly a decade now, one scoop in cold water, it's been one of my go-to morning anchors, no matter what's in front of me. One of the things that I love most about AG1 is how they continue to make the product better, constantly upgrading the ingredients and refining nutrient forms to work better with your body. It's one simple daily routine that supports gut health that fills my nutrient gaps and just helps me show up as a best version of myself. If you haven't tried it yet, this is a great time to start. Simply head to drinkag1.com/findingmastery to get started. With your first order, you'll receive a free welcome kit and a free flavor sampler. Again, that's drinkag1.com/findingmastery. Your morning is important. Own the start of your day. When you zoom way out, beyond the rules, what do you hope that the Seattle Seahawks community would understand so that they could be just a little bit better in their own lives? Whatever that means for them. - I think Jody had a great comment after the Super Bowl was she wants our team to be looked at through the merits of what we do. And she wants our principles, our way of life, to shine through how we go about our way of life. And it just made so much sense. Is this, they deserve that. Our guys deserve that. Our team deserves that, I think. And it just keeps it simple. It is what it is. Like our community, I think they see that. And I think if our hearts were in a different spot, if we were kind of playing a different game, And again, I think people would feel that to a certain extent. And it wouldn't be as impactful, I don't think it would be as potent. Last kind of thoughtful question here, and I got a couple more, is like, there's a surprise. Tell me, tell me about what this means to you. The first thing is I'm wearing all my graduation regalia off of all the crap that I won in high school. Back then, that really mattered to me. I got the blue thing, was a national art society, I got French national art society, I got the AJC cup, which is like, supposed to go to the top senior or whatever. Yeah, all the badges. All the badges. All the badges. All the badges. Yeah, but that's what I was thinking back then. Yeah. But I see it now. I just see me in my sisters. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of cool. It's really cool. I just got off the phone with Maggie. And it's just like, we're not talking about the Super Bowl. We talk about the team and what's going on. But we're talking about life, whereas we're talking about her two true boys, my dad, my stepmom, just visited there, we're just talking about life. And I'm learning, we're bouncing ideas off each other, and it's just like we've always had those conversations. It's really cool. I think people would be surprised at just how much you bring the essence of your loved ones into what you do. Yeah. Right? It's one of the reasons I wanted to show that. And then I did not know you were going to say, "Oh my god, I'm wearing all my stickers." That's right. That's the best way to put it in my stickers. If we juxtaposed your recounting of that to the way that you were handed the Lombardi Trophy on stage, most people, when they're giving something like that, they hoisted up. They show everybody. And it's like, not about look at me. It's like, look at the thing, but it's like, I'm the one holding it. And you held it almost like thoughtfully, and then you motioned for a couple of your players to come celebrate with you, totally different than look at my stickers. It was like, let's do this together, which is a really, like, it'll different from back in the day. It's way different. It's one of those subtle things. It's in plain sight, but there's a lot, there's a lot of wisdom in that moment. I appreciate that. Yeah. What was that like for you? Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I remember when I got this trophy. I was actually at my church where they were doing graduation, and so they call my name and I go up there and as much people there, I graduated with like 500 people and all their families are there. I remember wanting, this is embarrassing to say, like, publicly, but I remember wanting to get on the microphone and deliver a thank you speech to everybody. And I did one of the, I mean, it's like shameful, you know, but I remember that because it mattered so much to me, yeah. And then here 20 years later, whatever it is, like you're wanting to pull people forward. Yeah. We're, we're obviously the, yeah, it just didn't, it just didn't feel right in that moment to be like, hey, like, this is mine. It's like, it's not mine. They just, you know, this is, yeah, it was our, you know, it was always, it was always ours, you know, and it was just a nod to those, to the guys. Cool moment. All right, so we've got in the funny master community, we've got people that are serious about the sea hawks. Lovely. Great. So they're everywhere. It's all the way everywhere. Richard Shodd asks, how do you help players separate their self-worth from the Sunday box score so that they can perform freely at an elite level? Wow. Richard. You weren't kidding about people. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Like you get rewarded financially so much through the block, through your actual like sack numbers or touchdown numbers or whatever. So it's, it's a constant communication of how the, how like your production is really a reflection of like your impact on team success and where you like fit in, in the cog and how like, you know, people can say rising, you know, rising tie raises all ships, but it really is that, that mentality. So like you can be a heck of a productive player and just play the A gap. And it's our job as coaches to make that come to life on why that is so important. And you're doing like that dirty work. Man does that set up at this set up the corner for an interception, believe it or not, you know, like you can, you can, you can connect the dots. And so we coach that way systematically, however, everything kind of like works off each other. It's not easy. It's a balancing act. Honestly, it's, it's, it's, um, it's one of our biggest challenges. Yeah. I think one of the things that you do is you, you don't tie their box score to their self-worth. The language is not supported. The model does not support it that you've built. Um, and I've never heard anyone in this organization say, you know, once you get it right, you're in your worth something, like you, you have, you just, I think Richard, there's like this, there's a clear understanding that you are not what you do. You are in of yourself. You have value and worth and we want to be able to honor what makes you special, put you in the right situation and support and challenge you to do just that. Yeah. I think, I think a couple of things come to my own listen to is we try to celebrate like the non-obvious and like you being the self-worth of like you being a great teammate. We try to celebrate that in front of people like try to find you doing those things and we have like have our own little ways of doing it. They're unique to us, which is cool. Uh, I think what, what makes our organization really great is that people that John has hired to surround the players, like has nothing to do with your production of the field, you know, like our investment in our players is the same in terms of the person is the same as the guy we're paying 20 million bucks is the guy that just walked in the door. They have all the same resources and, um, we invest all that equally throughout the team, you know, it's, and yeah, but it's, it's, it's not easy. Joe Barsana. Okay. So he asks, what roles does vulnerability play in high performance environments like you NFL? That's a layup question, I feel like you picked this one, man. This is something that I, maybe, maybe not intentionally that we got right. I think this honestly probably just going through the process of, hey, we're in it together, you know, the language, the model, but I, I do think like if you actually do feel like you're part of the solutions and, and like, and getting it right, when you do fall short, like I do feel like it's my responsibility to let the guys know, you know, we're, because I'm in the fight with them. So it's like if I'm, if I'm the way, I don't know, if you're out in battle with somebody, like a new debriefed after a mission, you know, all those high performing teams are always like, oh, I, yeah, I should have, I should have cleared that. I should have gone right when I went in that room. I, I screwed you up there. And that's, you know, and so like that's, it's just to me, it's like a no brainer. And we, we go to our, we say to our players, look, my job is to put you in at premium situations where you can have success. That's my job. Whether how we train you, how we call the game, how we game plan, the expectation that I have for us and for our coaches that we consistently put you in the upper hand situation, like, otherwise, you know, what are we doing? You know, like, why are we, why do we study tape? And I would, I would add one little subtlety here is that you, we both know this is not just unique to us, but you can't demonstrate courage without some sort of vulnerability. Because courage is like, I'm scared, and I'm going to do this thing anyway. It's like bravery and courage and there's an energy about like, you're not quite sure. So, but you're still going to go for it. And you can practice vulnerability. One of the ways you can practice it is having an honest conversation with somebody about something you normally don't talk about. These subtle little hallway conversations or shapes experiences that you have invested in making sure that those happen. And it's like these small little additions, you know, to, to being courageous by moments of vulnerability that you wouldn't expect only happen on game day or on Wednesday in intense practice. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, um, it's practicing it. You know, that's, it's really, I guess it's that simple. Like, to my point of view, it was like, if I make, if I put a guy in a bad spot to my job, the take responsibility for that in a group setting. So, they know that I'm, I'm in it with them. Like, when we talk about how we want to operate and we want to be a connected team, how do you become a connected team if you're not brought, if you're not willing to like lower those walls. So, people can understand who you are and where you're coming from. You know, it's something that we've worked on with me and then our team and our leaders have done a great job of, of, um, setting the example, you know, in our conversations with, with the younger guys, answer in one word or two or whatever. It all comes down to reality. Success is marked by dedication. If you could sit with a true master of craft, true master, who would that be? Wow. Man, that's a great one. Man, there's like, you can go in so in different directions, uh, Teddy Roosevelt. A total surprise. (laughs) My mind went in all sorts of places. This is on that one. If you had one question for Teddy, I'd love to learn how he got his mindset, where does that come from and why? Because it's more aggressive than mine. There's some more bravado to it. Case in point, from your question, like I like to assess and then go, "I feel like you. " It's a little bit of a superpower that you're really thoughtful and pensive and you're not bullied by this empty space. Like you just. Yeah. You know, I'm sure this is out there that he had a speechwriter. But his 1921 star-born pair of speech is elite. It is on that. I can't quote anyone. Yeah. Well, you've heard a snippet of it. The quote-unquote man in the arena, like that entire prose is like unbelievable. Pressure comes from. Oh, lack of preparation. Vision is beacon of light in the northwest. Who tells you no? Leslie Frazier. Let's have Leslie. Coach, it wasn't so fun to be able to have this conversation with you to celebrate like your approach to being your very best, your approach to helping this team be their very best. And I've loved every minute of being able to, you know, like ride shotgun in the, in this world that you're architecting. So. Appreciate you, brother. It's been awesome. And I love this conversation. Is there anything that you want to make sure that we didn't talk about that? No, I thought. I mean, you could go. I feel like we could go all day. Yeah. Yeah. You need your own show. That I don't need. It's fun being on this one, though. Appreciate you. Yeah. He too, brother. Next time on Finding Mastery, we're joined by Dr. Volta Longo, Professor and Director of the Long Gevity Institute at USC, and bestselling author of the Long Gevity Diet and Fasting Cancer. In this conversation, he shares groundbreaking research on fasting mimicking diets and the remarkable role they may play in helping the body repair itself, fight disease and even support cancer treatments. From Long Gevity and nutrition to the science of cellular renewal, this episode explores how small changes in how we eat may have a profound impact on our long-term health. Join us Wednesday, June 24th at 9 a.m. Pacific, only on Finding Mastery. Alright, thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community, and if you're enjoying the show, the easiest, no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. 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