The psychology of curiosity

Pipsyys, kuten pysy, että on jääntää, että jääntää. Tää on viiltä ja se voit olla sima. Työntää, että se on jääntää, että se on jääntää. Tää on viiltä ja se on jääntää. Or we feel a sense of awe when we encounter something that's. We knew it would be wonderful, but it was even more wonderful and even more amazing than we thought. It's like space. It's like space. It's like space. It's like space. It's like space. And so, Matthias, would you agree with this idea from Goshi that curiosity is actually an emotion? Because he wouldn't necessarily have thought of it as an emotional. I wouldn't. Yeah, there's definitely debate in the literature about it. Whether we should call it an emotion or whether it's a motivational drive. Or if it's a background of motivation or a permanent circuit. Where we would explain curiosity as an intrinsic motivation. And does it feel like an emotion to you, Tim? It's interesting because I often approach it from a scientific point of view as a test pilot. For example, my curiosity is about, "Okay, we need to try and explore something. Can this aircraft do this?" Is that an emotion? Probably not. Probably for me, it's more of a sort of scientific approach than an emotional approach. So, Matthias, how do you go about measuring someone's curiosity? Because obviously in the lab, you need to measure things. Yes, exactly. So, this was a bit of a challenge in the beginning when we tried out this research. If you think like, "How can you really measure curiosity in the lab?" So, we do this mostly via trivia questions. And that works really well. I can give you, for example, an example of a trivia question. So, we have a whole pool of 350 trivia questions. For example, for the studies we do with children, we might ask a question, "What does the term dinosaur actually mean?" And so is the idea that they're curious to find out the answer to that? Or maybe curious, maybe not? Exactly. We ask them how curious they are and what we do, basically we want to get a whole variety of questions that they find really boring, not curious at all, and question that they're really curious. And basically, once we go into the brain scan, we want to see how the high curiosity questions, whether they really light up the dopaminergic circuit. And what question might you use for an adult? For example, a question like, "Where on earth do trees have square trunks?" Square trunks? Oh, now you say, "I do, I'm. " I got you there. I don't know the answer, but I do want to know the answer now. So, sometimes we ask people how curious they are. Sometimes we use a more objective measure of curiosity, where we'd give you 20 pounds, and I would ask you, "How much money would you like to pay me to give you the answer to that question?" Oh, that's quite tricky. I don't think I'm going to give you 20 pounds to find out the answer, because I could just Google it myself later, couldn't I find out? Sure. Somebody might have already. I'll give you a pound. Okay. I haven't got it on me a second. It's in the Anton Valley in Panama. So you can Google it later and look at the images of these square trees. Interesting. Interesting. And gosh, there are scales as well, aren't there that can measure how curious we are? Yeah, we can measure people's tendency to be a curious person. So for instance, you can ask somebody to what extent do you agree I like to learn new things or I can spend the whole night thinking about the solution to this problem and it keeps me awake at night. And so you give people a whole list of questions and statements like that to be able to get some score for how curious they are. And do you find there is a lot of individual variation between people because you think in a way isn't curiosity part of the human condition? I mean people have always wanted to see over the next hill or into the onto the onto the moon, onto the next planet. Isn't that just part of being human or do you see a lot of variation? Well, we certainly see that some people score lower and some people score higher, but it also depends on what kind of measures do you use. So the example they have given is trait curiosity, which is how we describe ourselves as curious or not. What Matthias is describing is state curiosity. So how curious am I about a solution to this particular trivia question? And some people who are curious on a trait level will also be curious on a state level, but that's not always the case. Let's see if the audience has any questions on this? Anybody? Can I ask Matthias and Gossier a question about artificial intelligence? Because I was wondering now that we're in the digital information agent and everything's at our fingertips, some chat GPT is so easy to access. How does that impact our curiosity? Does it is it a good thing? Because we are able to ask AI questions and therefore satisfy our curiosity? Or does it actually in some way water down the human spirit of searching out the information and having to go through some sort of effort to get the answer? Yeah, I think it's both, I mean it's nice, right? That we can just follow our curiosity and find the answer to it. So it can be a vehicle for further learning, but of course if you always go online or use GGBT to find the answer to something, as you said, you don't have that moment of joy of curiosity, which is actually then the engine for learning, if you always fat back the answer right away. So in a way you're shooting yourself in the foot, you don't do the whole process of actually learning because that's what you need to do actually that it sticks in your memory. Yeah, so you might not remember it as well, Gossier. And also the goal of curiosity is to find out the answer, the problem with language models is that they sometimes hallucinate. Yeah, so we don't have the right answer. You still got your work to do to find out if it's true or not. Interesting. Anybody else have a question? Yes, somebody over here. Why are the trees square? Yeah, we all need to know about these square trees now. Do you know any more about them? We don't really know why that is. If you go online, if I'm completely honest about it, it's actually a little bit of a letdown. They are not super, super square because but I'm disappointed that I want them to be really, really square. But here comes in the surprise again, right? I mean, you all were very, very curious about that and probably everybody who goes out of this room tonight will remember where that was. And so it's, it really works as a, as a nice hook and often it doesn't really matter that much what the information is. It's the fact we were curious about it and had to weigh Gossier. I just went to say that my son, who's six years old, loves Minecraft and all the trees there are really square. [Music] [Music] You're listening to Health Check from the BBC World Service and today we're at the Cheltenham Science Festival in the UK with a live audience. I'm looking at the psychology of curiosity with astronaut Tim Peak and psychologist Gossier, Goss Wasker and Matthias Gruber. Tim, when you first got onto the International Space Station, you'd spent six hours strapped into the Soyuz spacecraft. What were you most curious about exploring or discovering that first moment you were there? The smell of space and the smell of the space station. Is it smell horrible? No, it doesn't actually, you would think it might do. It's been occupied for over 20 years and we're exercising two hours a day up there. You might just think it's like a sweaty gym room but it's more like a clinical laboratory. It's got an almost antiseptic smell to it. It's very distinctive. So I think that was the thing I was most curious about. Everything else was like a home from home. The simulators we have here on Earth, the mockups, they're so good that it's like coming into an environment you feel like you've already spent days, if not weeks, training it, but you're floating into it rather than walking into it. And Matthias, what about age? Does that make a difference? I mean, if you watch a toddler walking slowly, sometimes painfully slowly along the street, they will look stop and look at every single thing and seem so interested in it and so curious. Are children more curious than adults on average? On average, our curiosity becomes more nuanced. I mean, there's very little research on that. Of course, it's hard to do to follow the curiosity from a baby up to an adult. So if you think about a toddler, they just have to explore the world. They have to learn about the world. So for them, it's important to be curious about just so many things. So are we more curious about the things we know nothing about? We can be, but actually what research has shown that is what Tim just said about the knowledge gap. When you have a gap in your knowledge and it's just something is missing there, actually research has shown that's probably the most replicated finding in the literature on curiosity that it's actually an inverted U shape. So the knowledge gap just has to be at the right size. If you don't know anything about the topic, it's hard to become curious about it. If you know almost everything about it, of course, you might know already the answer. So it's actually you have to find that sweet spot where I think there might be a message for educators. They are actually for everybody who wants to increase curiosity that you just have to find that sweet spot in the knowledge gap. Just find that bit that's in the middle and that that will be our deal. And Tim, do you think you've become differently curious as you've aged or are you curious about different things from when you are younger? Yeah, definitely. And it's interesting, and I've got to talk about this, the difference of awe and curiosity. So I think I went from the awe to the curiosity. So as a young boy, the awe of looking up to the stars and thinking, wow, you know, that's an incredibly vast universe out there. And I wonder where we came from. I wonder if there's life elsewhere on another planet around another star. And then that goes into a sort of scientific curiosity as we go through our education system. And then a professional curiosity of being a test pilot and being an astronaut. So I think it does change over the years. And Gosh, do we know whether people get more curious in a way as they get older? I mean, I think everything is interesting now. I didn't use to think of anything's interesting, but you know, if I go past a pencil museum or even a prune museum, I've been to, I'm first in the door. I just say, I didn't know I was interested in prunes or pencils, but maybe I am. So interesting, there's a recent paper on that, which looks at how curiosity changes with age. And in that study, they tested over 1000 people. And they measured what we discussed before, state curiosity and trade curiosity. So am I a curious person? Do I think of myself as curious? Am I curious about different answers to trivia questions? And what that research shows is that while older adults tend to describe themselves as less curious, they actually, their state curiosity is a bit higher than that of younger adults. So it seems like as we age, our trade curiosity decreases, but we become more interested in knowledge gaps and closing those knowledge gaps. And one reason for that might be that older adults have more knowledge already accumulated. So if they see a gap in that knowledge, they're really motivated to find out what the answer is. Yeah, we want to know about those square tree trunks. Yeah, exactly. That's a gap in my knowledge there. Now, Matthias, I know that the phrase sort of stay curious has almost become a bit of a mantra for some people. But what does the evidence say about whether being curious is actually good for us? Definitely with a learning part. I mean, all the research has shown that if we increase curiosity in people, they learn better. Children who are higher on these trade curiosity questionnaires, they have better grades, they have better academic achievement. So can you predict, I don't know, things like how good a reading a child might be? Well, of course, there are different factors that come into play. Conscientiousness, for example, is very important, of course, intelligence. But there's some interesting research also that shows that curiosity actually can overcome other challenges. Like if, for example, a child might not be that gifted, basically curiosity can basically make up for their suggestions, that curiosity can really be a way to narrow the attainment gap. So, Gossha, is there a way of teaching I didn't know children in particular, but maybe adults as well to be more curious. Can we do something to become more curious or help others too? Well, we can certainly model curiosity so we can show children how we are curious ourselves and try to instill that. Ond gyddi sprink Bla o'r gael hynny. Llefodd yn y glybgan amelad ac yn unrhywu iawn? Mae'n gael hynny i gynny ni'n gael hynny. Mae'n gael hynny, ac yn gael hynny. Mae'n gael hynny gwneud yn gael hynny. Mae'n gael hynny. Mae'n gael hynny. Mae'n gael hynny. Mae'n gael hynny. Mae'n gael hynny, mae'n gael hynny. Mae'n gael hynny. â e [innych yn pr良 pwina学 ikw człowieو.] Natau cyfydd ľen nhau cyffydd ol as being a действ glartedt deill mauvaisieaf at b methane rhaid ddwy o� o m nodiy finsuwoldu cit rhoi genegu jaunaul medduch roedd epl Danger a gall ngois ni fath distinguish hynny o sby eff MAN ac roedd 100% bethö digae yn fer ar HY Outso not. U sloppy a beth fathaf Alan foods e trwy beth fathaf Disquind mour 难 yg lem am Stars ac y byd dim a pharu a white sefiadol gyffio gyffemig hofflwwza gyda세등 o'r cyffydd o hynnych yn y praseptio cyhyryosol. Mae'r cyffydd yn ffysylltu o'r cyffydd o hynnych yn pwiseptio cyhyryosol. Mae'n yw'r cyffydd ymwyr i'n pwiseptio cyffyddol yn ymwyr i'n pwiseptio cyffyddol o'r cyffyddol o'r cyffyddol. Mae'n pwiseptio cyffyddol o'r cyffyddol ymwyr i'n pwiseptio cyffyddol o'r cyffyddol. Mae'r cyffyddol o hynnych yn ymwyr i'n pwiseptio cyffyddol o hynnych yn pwiseptio cyffyddol. Mae'r cyffyddol o hynnych yn pwiseptio cyffyddol o hynnych yn pwiseptio cyffyddol o hynnych yn pwiseptio cyffyddol. Can any of you on the panel guess what it was? Wooden sticks being broken? No, no. Piper? No. Is someone chewing on a carrot? That is closest. Carrot is closest. Can anyone in the audience guess what it was? Does somebody just hear please wait for the mic? Is it sticks of celery? Yes, very good. So when you hear that in a radio drama now or a TV drama you'll know that's what happen to the audience. It's only celery so you don't need to wince any more. It's completely fine. Matthias, let me ask you. So what is perceptual curiosity? Yes, perceptual curiosity is more about sounds, about text, about texture. So for example, these trait curiosity question is around perception. They would ask things like when I hear the sound of an instrument. I want to know what that instrument is. There's also in terms of perceptual curiosity, most it's visual, the research at the moment where we would use blurry images and would ask people how curious they are to find out what that blurry image actually might be and reveal that image. Recently we published a paper with virtual reality as well where we used perceptual curiosity where people could explore novel rooms and we asked them before they explored the novel room how curious they are about a specific type of room for example, a lounge or a museum and then we could basically track how much they actually explored the room and interestingly we really found that curiosity affected the amount of exploration. So if somebody would say, "Oh, I'm very curious to go into that room," they really explored more. So it predicts what they will actually do. Exactly, exactly. Thank you for that. Time now for the members of our live audience to ask their questions. Now is your chance to say to your curiosity, is there anything somebody would like to ask our panelists to put your hand up and wait for a mic to come? Yes, there's one just here. Where do we draw the line between a healthy curiosity and an unhealthy curiosity? And then for the second part Tim mentioned that he would love to explore his curiosity with Mars so where would you draw the line to say, "Actually, no, this is going to take too long for me to get to Mars." That's nice. So, Gosh, first of all, how do you draw the line between the good and the bad curiosity? I think the best way to think about it is, is this doing me any good? Am I still feeling like I can cope with what I'm seeing? And if I'm not, then I should probably stop what I'm doing. And Tim, would you draw the line anywhere? Is there anything that's too scary for you to decide I'm going to go there? Again, from a sort of professional point of view, we draw the line when we start to exceed the risk that we've decided we're going to accept. So, from a space agency point of view, will we do a one-way mission to Mars? No, we won't. There's no reason to do that. We've got the technological supremacy to be able to get people there and bring them back safely again, so let's do that. Would we do a mission, a human mission right now to Jupiter? No, we wouldn't. That would definitely be, bye bye, we'll never see you again. I hope it works out, kind of thing. That's where we draw the line, I think. So, that's where that line is. And we also have a question that came in from a seven-year-old called Scout, which is four-timpeak, this question. And she says, "Since you were in space for six months, one of the crew must have had a birthday. How do you celebrate birthdays on the space station? Do the balloons need helium? Can you eat cake, which is always important? And do you have to pack the presents before you set off from Earth? Did somebody have a birthday?" There's a lot of questions there. Birthdays are important. Scout is obviously a very curious person. Yes, I had my birthday, my crew makes birthdays up there, my family's birthdays back on Earth. So, we do celebrate birthdays and we have little crew care packages that can get sent up in cargo vehicles whilst we're up there. I bet there's no cake, is there? We had a little bit of carrot cake sent up, and it was still edible when it arrived. So, there were a couple of candles there. We weren't allowed to light them, but we were allowed to stick them in the cake anyway. So, we stuck these two candles in this bit of carrot cake. Tim Coperny, our birthdays were about three days apart. Balloons? Did you have balloons? Well, we've got balloons there. Of course, you don't need helium. They'll float anyway. So, you just blow them up and let them float around the space station. Great, birthday and space. That sounds good. Now, before we go, we need to find out what the object was that you showed us at the beginning. We had somebody suggesting something to do with a space suit, a catheter, some sort of tether, and it is this kind of long stretched out rubber bandy thing. What is it? Yes, well, my life depended on two of these. One prime, one redundant, and the gentleman was absolutely right. We had to put our fasteners for our spacesuits. So, when we get into the soccer space suit in our spacecraft, we kind of put this, it's called a bladder. We climb in through it, and then we put our head into the helmet, our arms in our legs in, and we have to scrunch up the bladder, which is in our chest area. It's a shame it's called a bladder, isn't it? I know, I know, it's a bit of a shame. And then we wrap this around, and once we've wrapped it around several times, we'll poke the little end through and then pull this through. And then that will fasten it once, and then for redundancy we wrap a second one round. So, when we're sat there, these two elastic bands are what is stopping the pressure inside the suit from escaping if we depressurised. And we will all remember that now, because we had to wait to find out the answer, and we were curious. Well, thank you very much to our panellists Tim Peek, Gosha Gotzwaska and Mityas Gruber. And thank you to our audience here at Cheltenham Science Festival. I'm Claudia Hammond, and I'll be back at the same time next week with more from the World of Health in Health Check from the BBC. Kato. And I've been doing this for about a week. Vua Krasinkodin. Suju Kuin Sato. Vua Kra Elämä Sigoti. Sato Pistefi. And then we'll be back at the same time next week with more from the World of Health Check.