The psychology behind better in-app conversion - Irwin Hau (Chromatix, ConversionCow)

You can't just assume if they come through the door, we've got them for life. They don't. They will churn. I promise you that interest is like hot food. Welcome to Aptivate, the mobile marketing podcast brought to you by the app retardeding experts at Remurge. Listen to what's working in mobile marketing today, from the people who are doing it now. Hey everybody, welcome to Aptivate, I'm Patrick Eichmann and today I'm joined by a very special guest, Mr. Irwin Howe. Irwin, welcome to the show. Thanks, Patrick. Thanks for having me. Glad to have you. We were just talking a little bit before hitting a record, but tell everyone a little bit about yourself and where you reside. Yeah, for sure. My name is Irwin. Irwin is in Steve Irwin and I don't know if you know the crocodile hunter, you know, with the Australian accent, but I am from Australia, Melbourne. I actually come from an ad agency background, so I used to work with the two top ad agencies here in Melbourne, Australia and decided rather than work for the man, I'd be the man. So I'm starting my own agency and we designed websites and also web applications and apps and things like that, but we also then decided to make our own SaaS company, helping people with conversion because there's a lot of human psychology thinking in conversion and I think a lot of people, yeah, they just want their friends to ring, people to sign up and people to hit that kind of install button. So yeah, that's what we do now and it's been 17 years and like I said, my hair started about here and when we first started, so it's been a long time doing all this. That's the times ahead. That's amazing. And so the talk a little bit about the two business. So the first agency that you started was Chromatix, is that correct? That's correct. And then the SaaS business is conversion cow. That's correct. So Chromatix is a digital agency that we started and we just saw the need of having come from an ad agency background where they spent multi millions of dollars in digital on websites and apps and stuff like that, we just want to bring that big level thinking to the little guys as well. I think everyone deserves a good design and just really pressing into really the science behind design. And that's actually what Chromatix actually means, the science of colors. And so we really want to play on the whole holistic thinking of human psychology, human behavior and really leaning on just that natural behavior, sort of how we design not just pretty fonts and colors and just general marketing. And it was actually during that time of analyzing 60,000 plus designs and websites that we've kind of learnt what actually works and what doesn't when it comes to making someone engage with you. And I think it's really important when it comes to marketing to maybe a website in general marketing, I guess. And so we decide to productize our philosophy, turn it into a little product that you can actually put on websites and that website could be a SaaS website, a service website. You could be an app marketing website, you know, sort of thing. And yeah, there's four key principles that we realise that people always tend to forget. Who are you? What do you do? Why should I choose you and how do I download or how do I install, you know, sort of thing. And so we just want to simplify that conversion cow was born. So that's it. Yeah. A little pop out for a website. Yeah. So that's a pretty cool origin story. And so I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that, specifically around traffic and converting that traffic. You know, in our world, we're spending a lot of our time talking to mobile marketers that are, you know, working with, you know, whether it's a game or whatever it may be as an app. And we certainly see that the first moment or first area of marketing really tends to be focused on acquisition, right? You want to get as many users in the app as possible. And more often what we hear now is that depending on the maturity of the app, you want to look at different ways of then trying to find optimization around the current audience that is already consuming and with your app itself, right? And so when I was reading a little bit about conversion cow, it certainly seemed to me that, you know, businesses are, you know, obsessed, you know, with getting traffic to their app, but they're less focused maybe at times of monetizing that existing traffic. And I'm sure I'm guessing that you see this too. So I was curious a little bit about how you go about convincing skeptical marketers to spend more time on that conversion aspect. Thanks. Yeah. A hundred percent. There's a formula that we always teach that, you know, traffic times convert rate equals customers. And we spend so much money, so much time on the marketing side. And we end up building so many dollars, not realizing something that my daughter, when she was in kinder, taught me. She said, Dad, I've just worked out zero times a huge number equals zero. So it times any number. So dad, give me a number. I'll multiply by zero. I'll tell you the answer. And I think that really stuck with me because I think we spent so much time on this traffic. But if we don't convert it, don't get someone to install and so forth, we're in trouble. And so there's actually three key areas that we've found that kind of falls down from a marking perspective when it comes to conversion. It's kind of pretty simple. The first one is actually the clarity of the problem that you solve. So a lot of apps are fantastic and they have feature packed and they're full of goodies. But I need this one liner that kind of explains who you are, what you do in a simple, quick and concise way. So if you cannot explain your app in less than seven words, I think you're waffling. You know, something. And my wife says it the best to me, sometimes I explain something to her, she goes, what are you trying to say, oh, when? And I said, well, I was just trying to say x, y, z and I say it in less than seven words. She goes, well, why didn't you say that? And I think we have to look at our app marketing and go, hey, are we as clear with articulating the problem that we solve and how we'll help the user. So the first one's clarity. I might just jump through all of them and stuff to make it easier. But the first one is clarity and message. The second is actually social proof. Everyone has a claim. Our app is the best in X, Y, Z, compared to, he said, well, that's just a, that's just a claim. Where's the proof? So is it in a testimonial, is it in a, you know, is it in a video? Is it whatever the proof is, you know, used by as featured on helped solve this problem? Here's the results. We definitely need proof. And my problem in this world at the moment is not that we don't have proof. It's a term we coined as proof density. We need more proof on top of it because everyone's got bits and bobs and stuff that we really need to really pack out with a lot of proof. And the last one's a really simple one. It's like going on a date and forgetting to ask for the phone number at the end. It's kind of like you tell people how awesome your app is, but you don't really make it easy for them to install or find where it is on the app store or exercise. It's called action, as we say. And I know it's not just directly on apps when you're trying to get people on, but even if for some apps, depending if which industries you're in, if you're doing B2B SaaS apps, if you're doing finance, consumer health, those kind of apps, they actually push to a website where people are trying to find that information. So even app website set is, you need to make sure there's a cloudy, there's proof, and really clear core to actions. They're the big ones that people focus, forget because they're looking at traffic. Sorry. Right. I like that. I'm going to use that. Yeah. I'll show you. Yeah. In the audience. Right. But yeah, I like that. The clarity, the focus on value exchange really is what needs to happen there. And so across these three pillars, right, that's a lot of information to get in front of a consumer, you know, again, thinking in the app world, you're on your phone. You have a very limited attention span, right? What have you found as being the best way of delivering against those three pillars? Yeah. Is there specific creative units that you find to be more valuable by those pillars? Yeah. Yeah. It's actually not as long. I mean, maybe my explanation might sound a bit longer, but you really can nail it in this way. And I hope you feel listening. And you do have an app and stuff like that. With your clarity message, like I said, seven words or less. If you can get it there. Okay. Maybe I'll give you 10. If you're twisting my arm, I'll give you three more extra words. But if you can explain your app, the problem it solves, and even the result of what you can get, then we're in trouble, right? And so we, so saving some of what you can even see it at behind me. For conversion character, increase your chances of getting more leads. That's really the problem we solve. So if that's you, then use conversion calendar website. You know, that's, that's what we made, right? So nice and short and sharp. With the proof, you can actually use dot points of fun enough, what's behind me is you've got the key message, you've got some dot points. So what are your dot points? What is the proof? So is it a leveraging off some like a big brand? Has someone else had a good result? Is a testimonial? What is it? You just need a couple of key facts and figures, stats and statistics, just to really punch it. And that could be the descriptor. I remember looking at iTunes and at the other day, they just had a one liner, two, three dot points and then download button. That was it. And I think that's all it needs to be. You should be able to explain your almost your app sales pitch, conversion pitch. And literally maybe five lines with a quarter action and you're done. So it's as simple and as quick as that. But remember, this is more sales thinking. We have to remember we're not just making an app and presenting it. Assuming people understand us, we really want to make sure it's clear, quick and concise. That's it. Got it. And so tell me, where do you think then folks get it so wrong? Is it because it's not as concise as it should be? No, no. Well, I made, I remember making my first app. And do you know what I loved about my app? I loved the features. I loved going into all the different features and the functions. And hey, can I just show you the back end because I have spent so many hours on the UI and the UX and we kind of fall into that side. But you do remember people download apps because there's a problem that it solves. And it's great to know your features and your benefits and that, but I'm going to discover them along the journey once I've installed download, I follow your little tutorial and so forth. And of course, I do need to mention them. But remember, everyone has a problem and they want a solution and they're hoping it's you. And they just want to make sure that it's, you know, the right fit. Because that's the first app. Remember, acquisition is the first step. Once I've got you on that first date onto the second day, we're going to unpack a little bit more. We're going to go into the features and functions and so let's really focus on what the customer's problem is before we actually go into the depths of what we like, you know, sort of thing, which is the build side. Right, right. So that's a good segue. So let's say you've done a good job of acquisition, right? So in the case of apps, you have a steady flow of installs coming through on a daily monthly basis. Awesome. But you, yeah, right? That's great. But what you're starting to look at in your analytics is that the conversion thereafter, right? So maybe it's a registration that needs to happen. Maybe it's a first deposit or a first order. Oftentimes, the markers that we work with, that's where they're really struggling. And so I was wondering if you could just speak to how you would go about solving that problem of you have a really strong, you know, pipeline, you know, top line of installs coming through. But the value exchange maybe isn't there or the user is not performing that specific KPI, that action, you need them to perform in order to really unlock all that value. How do you explore that or address that? Yeah, conversion to me is not a once-off thing. There's different conversion points. There's a conversion from when I, you know, that interest when you first kind of meet the app. There's the I've now downloaded. It's now on my phone, but I guess that initial engagement side. But then also that flow on to how do I keep the person using it? Do they even understand how they use the fullness of the app? And how do you keep them engaged in and download as opposed to all I've downloaded? Yeah, great. But then I turn it off. Data and continuous tracking is the most important thing when it comes to conversion on a website. They don't. They will churn. It will go cold very fast and your job is to keep warming it. And so a couple of things we always say, assuming that we're past their normal, their initial acquisition part. How good's your tutorial? How many people actually train people on the app and what to do? Where to go? What to click? Because now that I've got you, I can hit you with the features. Do you have tutorials in the form of videos? Do you live, have help icons that kind of pop up? Do you have help messages? That kind of guide people? Can I even find the help in the first place that I can get through? And it depends on what kind of app. If we're talking about a game as opposed to like a sass or a B2B or finance app, they're all slightly different. But there's always some sort of what I call education element at the start. So how good is that? If your education's poor, people aren't going to know what to do. That's when they drop off. The second is, as they're using it now, are you continuously alerting people, notifying showing? So I know that with my Jolingo app, it tells me every single day, I better play else. I'm going to lose my streak of 1,000 whatever it is nowadays and stuff like that. And it drives me bonkers. But hey, I still do it because I don't lose my streak and have my daughters beat me and stuff like that. But in terms of these push notifications, you know, how are we doing things in a way that we continuously engage? I think that's really important. But then we also want to all that share ability as well. So just because I'm using it, that's one thing. We also have to be reminded that, no, actually, I want to get other people involved. So it's what we call growth hacking. So we really want to think of how do we not just get me using it, but me to go, oh, hey, Patrick, you should use this. Hey, how do I share it as well? As long as we keep my happy in the ecosystem, through maybe through gamification, you know, awards or what I call mental rewards and stuff like that, I think we're pretty good. So, and then as I point at the very beginning is track your conversions at each point, see how users are using it. And in particular, if before you launch an app, definitely even get user testing happening where you're actually watching how a user uses it. Don't say word. No hints. Just watch how they use it. And that's also a great method of testing. So you brought up a dolingo. And I'm very familiar. I've used it in the past. My kids also use it. And I'm very familiar with their experience, the user experience. Who else is it doing it really well from an app perspective? I like dolingo the most. And the reason why I always use that example is because of the push notification and the gamification of things. I think it's really smart because they know, once I break that streak, I'm gone because I've kind of lost it. So they know how to hook you back in. They know how to make you work with other people. So you're leveraging together in that group mentality and stuff like that. That's my favorite one. There isn't another one, but it's actually more, it's actually a new startup here in Australia. I call it my Drive Hero. It's called My Drive Hero. It pays you to drive safely. That's the pitch. Get paid to drive safely. Sign up in less than 60 seconds. And a way you go. So that's a really quick clear message. I hope I did it in justice by the way. By the way, I say that. And can I just say I've been driving safely. That's why it works really well. But it also works because of the gamification element and the shareability. You don't feel like you're doing the app alone. And I think that built into apps is a really smart method because how do you keep interested in something day after day after day, you know, to me, it's when you do it together. And if you think about the human psychology, it's kind of going to the gym. I don't know about you. I try to go to the gym. I don't, I'm not, I should be a bit bigger on the on the guns. But going by myself, it's a bit hard. I can only sustain it for so long. But when my mates go, hey, oh, and I'm going, my, my missus goes, hey, can I come along? Or my friend goes, hey, I'm going to be there. You got to be there. Going together is always a better mentality. And so just playing on low human psychology. So a lot of these apps, it's when you do it together. I feel there's a natural churn killer, I call it, right? It's a way just to keep people going longer. So that's it. Yeah. That's a very interesting concept. I'm going to have to look up that app later, later today. I don't know. Yeah, for sure. In the States. So they pay you for being responsible, essentially. Yeah. So it was actually really smart. And so this is where the game, it's actually what I call reverse game. It's, it's reversing a punishment. So it was the, based on the human psychology that, if I told you Patrick to drive safely, else I'll punish you, we know that punishments don't work. I tried on my children, it doesn't work. I promise you, it doesn't work, right? But if I said, you get a reward, I'm going to pay you this much, a couple of cents or whatever it is. But because you didn't do well, I'm actually going to take away a significant amount and I'm going to just reward you a little bit. Then I go, oh, I don't want to lose something, right? So therefore, I comply, you know, sort of thing. And I think it's just using human psychology in a very different way. Very smart. So very smart. That's cool. That's very cool. Well, listen, I know it's pretty late for you. Where can folks find out more about the work that you're doing with conversion cow? Yeah, for sure. If you'd like to connect with me personally and directly, feel free to jump on my LinkedIn. I'm very active there, Irwin, as in Steve Irwin, I RWIN and how, as in, how do you do, pronounced, but spelled H-A-U. So check me out on LinkedIn or you can check out conversion cow C-R-W.com. As in, beef up your website and milk your website for more leads or chromatics, so C-F-H-R-O-M-A-T-I-X.com.au. That's it. Awesome. Irwin, thank you so much for doing this. We really appreciate it. No, thanks, Patrick. [BLANK_AUDIO]