The Proverbs 31 Woman is not just for Dishwashing

Welcome to just Julie and him. Sometimes him is here and sometimes him is not. So join us today and see who showed up for this episode. [MUSIC PLAYING] Hello, everyone, and welcome to just Julie. And him? It's the moment we always wait for. Oh, thanks for letting me on the program this week. You're welcome. You know, it was just, I needed somebody and you're here. Okay. I'm better than nothing, right? Ain't I better than nothing? Yeah, you is. That's a line from an old TV show. Oh, is it? Oh, TV show. Oh, TV show. Oh, TV show. Well, hey, today is Wednesday, July 29th. End of July cannot believe it. Summer is hot. You know, when you've got the real feel of 120, what is that? You know, as it matter, if the real feel is-- once the real feel goes over 100, I don't think it matters much anymore. Because you're going to try to stay out of it as much as you possibly. Okay, well, this might sound kind of weird, but sometimes when it says like the real feel is 115, I go out like, is-- so this is it? So this is Arizona. No, honey, this is not Arizona. Arizona, it's 147. Oh. But it's a dry heat. That's right. That's right. I like the oven. So we all stay up against the oven, right? You know, take your pick. Hey, well, today, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, where do I begin? I listened to a podcast. And I just went bonkers. Because I could not believe what I was hearing. And it was just-- I had to kind of sit back and swallow hard and get through the entire thing. It is-- it was called "Getting the Proverbs 31 Woman Right." And it's the Think Deeper Podcast. There are three young men on there. I'm going to say maybe mid-20, 30s. And there-- some of the things that they were describing to and presenting as how they were seeing Proverbs 31 was very difficult. And so I have Wilson here today because I feel like we need to talk about this. Because when we've put something like that out there, and then we expect people to either believe it. And if they don't, they're not holy enough. That concerns me that the way these men took Proverbs 31 and decided what it said. And so I wanted to discuss that because there are just things that, for instance, when it's said that when a man has to help with doing chores at home that are not his duty, that it undermines-- it undermines him that he even has stuff he still has to do for her. And things like that, when I'm hearing it from men who are Christians, I've got to figure out why. How did you even get there? That this is how you're interpreting about a husband and wife relationship and who you're supposed to be searching for that's going to match this Proverbs 31 woman. Wilson introduced us to verse 1 through 10 about Proverbs 31 as where are we even starting with this? Well, you made me listen to this. I made you listen. I made you listen to this. So I'm going to talk about Proverbs 31. You get kind of an eye roll, you know, kind of a deal. Same old, same old. Here's the problem. And these guys did it. They were guilty of this too. Here's the problem with Proverbs 31 and the usual way that we talk about it. In fact, I think it's one of the most weaponized scriptures from misogynistic abusers that there is. And here's the thing about Proverbs 31. You ever notice nobody starts with verse 1? No, everybody. In Proverbs 31, everyone starts. Is that the first 10? Yeah, around verse 10 and there we go. And so nobody ever talks about the first few verses of Proverbs 31, which is critical to understanding, I think, the overall meaning of what is being communicated here. And so maybe we need to back up and do what these guys didn't do and go back and talk about the context of the passage in which it occurs. And that context begins in verse 1 and 2. And it is, I take it to be in verse 1 and verse 2, the mother of Solomon, which would have been Bathsheba, by the way. And rabbinical teaching carries forth this tradition that this is who it is. It's from mother to son, a son who is going to be king. And she wants to talk to her son about how to treat people. Okay. And so the first nine verses convey this idea that you're going to be a leader. And here's how leaders treat people. Exactly. Here's how leaders treat people in the kingdom. And he spends the first nine verses talking about, don't abuse these people. Don't be given to abuse. Don't crush the afflicted. Don't crush the needy. He goes out of his way to communicate a message to the young to be king or she goes out of the way to communicate the message to Solomon of how you treat people. And then she segues from that. She segues from that into beginning and verse 10. What her advice to her son is in regard to how to treat women and how to view women. Now keep in mind, if Bathsheba is the one writing this to Solomon, and I think she probably is, she herself had been abused. That's very true. She herself had been abused by David, you know, we don't have time to go into all of that. But when David first sent word about who is this woman that I saw there, the first thing out of his, the mouth of his advisors was she's married. And that should have ended it right there. That should have ended it right there. But because David was king and because power has a tendency to corrupt, David didn't care. And he takes her and he takes her by force and he takes her as some kind of powerless property. And he uses his power. He exploits Bathsheba. And we all know all of the things that eventually David did in regard to this very horrible situation. And so here is a mother who has been terribly abused. And she is writing to her son about how you need to treat people. Don't treat people the way I was treated. And when you look for a wife, you need to treat her with the most respect and dignity and honor. Now that sets the stage for what is going to come in verse 10. But it's always interesting to me that when anybody talks about Proverbs 31, most just start in with verse 10 and totally ignore the contextual setting of the passage. Absolutely. Yeah. And so when we start in verse 10, then we've got this mother telling her son, you know, when when you are searching, when you are searching for this person who is going to be able, and we're saying she's talking to to her son, who's king. What kind of woman would you be looking for that would match who you are, what you're doing, your mission, what your responsibilities are. This is the kind of woman you're going to need to find. And who's this written to? It's written to men. It is written to men. Sometimes I'll be somebody that want lessons on home and family or whatnot. If I ever have a session with the men only, I'll teach this lesson on Proverbs 31 because it is written. to men, a message to men on how to treat others and how to be the kind of leader you need to be. And when it comes specifically to your wife versus 10 through 31, she is your help meat. She's not the weak link. She's not your property. She is not to be used. She is not to be abused. She is not your slave. What is she? She is a worthy woman. She is a strong woman. She's not a threat to you. She is a compliment to you. She's not a competition with you. Each of you brings something very special to the table and you work together to understand how valuable she is, how independent she is, how resourceful she is, how wise she is. And so that's the setting in which all of this occurs. Well, you know, I will say that that's not what I got out of the pot. That's not what I got out of it. I got out of that the man's going to determine how all of those things for her. And be the one who's giving her the grade on whether or not she's doing her duties. And I will tell you, some of the things they were saying was so insulting to women. I don't know if they realized that, but it was so insulting. Because it was putting women in a place of being a child. When they refer to a man being the general. Yeah, I got that too. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I wrote down. Yeah, I wrote down number one. The husband needs to tell his wife how things are going to be because he is the general and she is the lieutenant. Yeah. And so they use this military comparison or illustration which certainly I think leads the wrong impression. Another illustration they use was that he's the quarterback. He's the-- and they call Peyton Manning's name or they use Tom Brady's name. The husband is the Tom Brady and the Peyton Manning. The wife is the offensive lineman. I know. I know. I guess she blocks for him. I guess she texts the hips for him. She protects him. I think it's the other way around. But anyway, these guys are coming up with-- I tell you what's the smack though. I listen to this whole thing. It's smack to three young guys who think they know a lot more than they know because they haven't had the life experience that other people have had who are a little bit older. And maybe-- although it might be hard for them to understand this point-- maybe hard for them to appreciate that maybe they don't know everything they think they do. Yeah. Well, when the comment is, when I come home, my job is not to do the dishes for you. And then to follow that up, I will occasionally hop in and help. But that ain't my job. Yeah, I heard that. But bless you. I thank you. You've loaded the dishwasher a few times. Wow. How about that? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm thinking, man, guys, nobody wants to have to do anything with the dishes. I'm sure you'll eat what's put on the plate with those dishes. But that very idea-- it was such a hierarchy, which they used that were, too. What do they do? A hierarchy of, this is how this will be. And you will abide by this. And should you get out of line, I will make sure you're in line. I'm going to give you a good talking to you. I'm going to make sure you're in line because I am the general. I am the quarterback. And we all know quarterbacks are big deals on a football team. Well, they did say the quarterback at the end of the season buys his offensive line in a nice watch. Well, I like to-- So maybe I need to just buy jewelry. I guess that's the point. I don't know. I guess so. I don't know. But I love it. I love that he says, there have been times. There have been times. I have loaded the dish. I know. And I bet they mentioned that probably four times in this process. I guess so. I guess so. I-- another comment, a lot of women are dropping their duty. What is that about? How did they get that out of Proverbs 31? Well, I don't know. OK. I don't know. What else did you find? Well, they talked about a woman who works outside the home, ruins everything. Because it ruins the hierarchy of the home. That's-- That's that. That's what they said. Working outside the home ruins everything. It ruins the hierarchy of the home. And they went on to say, one of them said this, quote, a lot of women work outside the home because they want to take four vacations instead of two. So most women work for that fourth vacation and then added so they can buy a Ferrari. I'm in shock. I don't know what world these guys live in. Because I want to tell you, you know, in a perfect world, when the man can work and cover all of the expenses, that is great. But we live in a day in a time in which sometimes that's not always possible. And sometimes a wife may have to work outside the home to help cover the rent, to help cover a house payment, to help put a roof over people's head. I've never had four vacations in a year in my life. I'm lucky. I'm good to have one, you know? And I've never driven a Ferrari, have you? Not do I want to. No. I have no-- But it's like, these are the kinds of illustrations you get when younger men who think they know more than they do. Start talking about what all of this means to them. And I'll tell you what, it's smacked of Doug Wilsonism, out in Moscow, Idaho. It's smacked of-- Who's the-- Oh, God. The Goth-- Bill Gothford and the Duggers. Remember all of that. And so there's extremes in all of this. Massage inism-- I don't even know if that's a word. I'm just going to make it a word. Massage inism way over here on one extreme and feminism way over here on the other extreme. And I want to tell you the answers in the middle. And these guys, if they do anything, tend to go towards being massage inists. That's what I got out of this. Now, they did say this one of the-- one of the young men said, well, you know, my wife could sell Etsy products, if she wanted to. Products on Etsy. Products on Etsy, as long as her main domain is not affected. So I guess that's OK, you know? She can work that out. And then he went on to say, a lot of women-- I love that a lot of women spend half their day on Instagram. I started nine and get off around two. Yeah. And you know, OK, so here's the thing. When you say a lot of women, you're including me. I'm in a lot of women. That would smak some majority. OK, so if I'm going to say a lot of women, then you're going to include me, and you're going to include my friends, and you're going to include our adult children, the adult women that are in our families. And that is just not-- I don't know where that came from, but I'm sure there are people who get up nine and scroll until two. I guess there are some. But to say a lot of women is so untrue and insulting. And insulting. I want to read something. You want to read this? One of them-- OK, so I made a post about this today. And one of my followers commented-- and this is what she said-- I have never-- OK, so here before I read it-- there was a comment made in their podcast that women wake up just thinking about their social calendar, that it's all about them. I have not done that. It's as a married woman, been married 35 years. And I'm guessing most women don't. Are there maybe some very selfish women, some social media influencers might be like that? But the women I know-- I don't believe that. Here's what she said-- I have never woken up thinking the world revolves around me and my social calendar. My day revolves around making sure my people has been included, have what they need, and that logistics where everyone is covered. Then I start my remote from home position and school my children. Three men pretending to be theologians have no business sitting in little offices, telling me what my husband and I have come to in our home to support and nurture our family to the glory of God. Does anyone know their wives? I feel they may need checked on. Wow. Yeah, well, I think that pretty well says it. It does. It says it all. Now, here's the thing. I mean, Paul talks and tigers about women in the home. And should a woman be proud of her home? Should a woman keep her home as best she can? Absolutely. Absolutely. but the scriptures don't conflict. There's no contradiction here. - No. - But there are times, there are times when a woman needs to work outside the home. This woman in Proverbs 31 did. - Okay. - She certainly did. She considered a piece of land and she went and bought that land and then turned it into a vineyard. And vineyards produce grapes and I'm gonna, it was a profit making venture for her. - Absolutely. - These guys took this to mean she planted a garden and got vegetables and fed her family. No, she planted it. She planted a vineyard and from the vineyard, I'm sure she sold grapes and made a profit. - And made a money. - Yeah, she was very, she was entrepreneur. She had great business sense and her husband would have understood that and gladly gave her the go ahead to do all of that. - Well, yeah, and in this, in the context of that, if you've got a mother telling this to her adult son and what she's saying is look, if you are gonna look for a wife who is, it will compliment you. You're gonna wanna look for someone who's savvy here, who's gonna be able to look at a piece of property and go, I think this might really work for our family. She's gonna be able to do that. And it doesn't say, oh, by the way, she had to go check and make sure before she could do that. Now, what that is saying is is that she knew how to find a way to make things work for the home, for the purpose of making income. She knew how to do that. And the mother is telling this and this is the kind of person you wanna look for. This is who you wanna go after. - She's industrious. - She's industrious. - She gets up in the mornings and she does works. And now Wilson, here's the thing they didn't talk about. This woman had maids. - Yes, she had maids, she had servants. - She had servants. - She got up in the morning and she made sure her house was taken care of. And she made certain that her maidens had everything they needed for the day. - Yeah, what were the maidens doing? - Well, they were gonna do chores. They were gonna do different things. They might load the dishwasher. - I don't know. - Thanks. - But I mean, there's so much here that these guys just kind of, they just kind of gloss. They just kind of gloss over. And, - Well, was verse 16 about her going and purchasing that. - Yeah, she considers a field and buys it. And from her earnings, she plans a vineyard. - Okay. Well, all three of them said they struggled with verse 16. - I did, but I guess they did struggle with it 'cause it doesn't fit their paradigm about all of this should be, you know? - Yeah. - And, but I guess of all of the comments that got me was when they got down to verse 25 and they read that statement and she smiles at the future. And one of these guys said, women today need to smile more because women are moody. And maybe it's the time of the month, but maybe they need to smile more. And then it goes on and adds, women just don't know how to handle anxiety. End of the quote. How does that go over? - Well, I'm controlling myself right now. (laughing) You know, I'm just thinking, surely, surely this is not how they counsel people. But then I'm thinking, obviously it is when women are insulted in such a way, when women are spoken to in such a condescending way, when women are seen as less than. And one of the things that came out over and over and over is headship, headship, headship, headship. Submission, submission, submission. This is one of the things that got, just kind of, I put my head in my hands, going, you've got to be kidding me. Vase, what they were talking about was that for women, if you are, if you have a husband that's not who it should be, and that he's mildly disobedient to the word of God, mildly disobedient to the word of God. You've got to submit anyway. My question is what is mildly disobedient? Who defines that? I don't know. How do I just, just a wife decide? That's mild disobedience. Where we gotta talk, how far do you go with that? I don't know, he abuses her a little bit. I don't know, slapstrap side the head once in a while. 'Cause that's kind of how proverb 31 starts out, that you know, hey, you have to protect those who are being abused. Yeah, yeah. That's the whole context of the passage. So maybe he just hits her a little bit. I don't know what, what's mildly disobedient? I don't know. I guess either you are disobedient or you aren't. Here's the thing about submission. Look at the word submission. It's an easy word to define. It's got a prefix and a suffix. The prefix is sub and it means under submarine under. Mission, we know what that is. So what it's saying is she is under the mission of the husband. It begs the question, what is the mission of the husband? And the mission of the husband is to love his wife as Christ loves his church. That's the mission of the husband. And when a husband loves and leads like Christ, a woman is gladly, gladly going to follow that lead. It's not that complicated. But when you start saying, I'm large in in charge or I'm the general or I'm the quarterback and she's the offensive line. Well, when you start looking, I'm gonna tell you, these guys need to go back and read Matthew and Mark and Luke and John and they need to see leadership as presented by Jesus himself, the greatest leader there ever was. Looking that up a room, who was it that got down on his hands and feet and washed the feet of those men? It was Jesus. He said, I came to serve. My job as a husband is to serve you. My job as a husband is to sacrifice for you. My job as a husband is to do everything I can to make your life easier. And when I come home from work and yet, it's been a hard day and I walk in the house and you've got two little ones and another little one and I can just look at your face and I can see that it's been that kind of day. It's not time for me to plop down in the chair. It is time for me to say, honey, what can I do to help? What can I do to help you? What can I do to make this better? These guys don't get the principle of servitude. We're not in competition with one another. You and I don't go around keeping score on, well, I've made the bed three times this week and you make the bed, we don't go around and keep score on who loaded the day. There's always gonna be work to do. I found it interesting. These guys even when so far as saying, well, the woman's job is to grow a garden and grow things because she grows babies and she's good at growing things. I think they actually said that. They did. It's the man's job to go mothayar. - Well, she can't mothayar. - Because she can't mothayar. - She shouldn't mothayar. Let the man. (laughs) - I don't know where they came from. - No, where they got a lot of this stuff. - I don't know. - You know, but these are three young guys and I think what it reminded me of. And I thought about Rea Bowam in the Old Testament who was gonna be the new king and he got advice from the older ones. He got advice from his peers and he went with the advice from his peers and he just made a wreck of everything. I wish these guys nothing but the best but then I wish their wives and families nothing but the best. But I'll tell you what, I hope, I hope they will spend more time learning about Jesus and leading like Jesus rather than leading like Doug Wilson or leading like Bill Gofford or leading in those kinds of ways. Because that tends to be more misogynistic and the answer is not misogynate. The answer is in the middle and it's loving your spouse as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. - Exactly. Now, here's something to. I wanna go back and look at the story of Mary and Martha and Jesus and where Jesus is saying to Martha, Martha, Martha, Martha, come over here. Wait, wait, Martha's all upset. She's rebuking Jesus saying, "Hey, you need to get on to her because she's not over here doing the dishes. She's not over here cooking the food. She's not over here fixing the table." And Jesus said, "Wow, whoa, those things are not as important as what We're going to talk about over here. I want you to come over here and I want you to sit here and I want you to listen to what's going to be the most important thing. I think these guys need to think about that is if you're coming home and there's stuff on the floor and there's dishes there and there's beds not made and there's toys everywhere. And your wife is trying to make sure you're happy. Number one, your wife is trying to make the wrong person happy. If all she's caring about is to make sure you're pleased because she's worried you're going to get mad at her, then there's a problem. And if you're coming in as the general and expecting some kind of salute, then I feel like you need to go back and think again about who she is in your life. She's the person who's not walking beside you who is not the person who is not walking behind you. She's supposed to be walking beside you. You're supposed to be right there and together, together. And if you've got to love the dishwasher 20 times a month, you do it whenever there's opportunity. Look for opportunities to help one another. Instead of looking for how many times she messed up. I can't implore people enough to start looking at their marriages as an opportunity to serve Jesus. Marriages are not about a piece of paper. Marriages are about relationships. Relationships with one another, but most important, the relationship that we have with God. When we talk about headship, Wilson has a head, I have a head. Both of our heads come together because Jesus is the head. And together, we're wanting to treat each other like Christians treating one another and making sure that our head, Jesus Christ, is gonna be pleased with what we're doing. And if you don't have that kind of marriage, then I strongly suggest you get into some kind of help somewhere to figure out how you can be a better person in your marriage and reflect Christ, reflect Christ, Christ served. Jesus is the loving shepherd. What's the loving shepherd do? He makes sure his sheep are protected from wolves. He knows what's gonna harm his sheep. He knows what's gonna do. What's the best for his sheep? That's who we serve. We don't serve generals. We don't serve quarterbacks. We serve each other in order to serve him. What you wanna say, Wilson? - Well, I think, let's close it out. First Peter 3, 7, I think sums up Proverbs 31. I think it does because it's written to husbands too. - Okay. - It's written them into, you husbands. You husbands in the same way, and he's talked about to the wives previously, but you husbands in the same way or in likewise, man. Live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman, and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life so that your prayers will not be hindered. My relationship with God, my relationship with God, he says, God's gonna see how I treat you. God's gonna see how every husband treats his wife. And if we want the right kind of relationship with God, then we better treat each other as the Lord would want us to do. - And one last thing, when Scripture talks about weak and women, you know what that's really about? It's not about that we don't have this physical strength, which I will, we're not as strong in many ways, but that is about the precious person you have. It's about doing anything to protect that person. It's about making sure that it's like a fragile piece of something that you want to take care of that's never hurt or lost. So thank you Wilson for helping me with this. - Sure. - I, you know, to those three guys, you know, I'm old enough to be your mom, maybe old enough to be maybe one of your grandmother, but I implore you, for us a Christian to Christian, to rethink the words that you're using. And to my audience, thank you for joining us and remember to be kind. (upbeat music)