The Promise and Peril of AI in Education

This podcast is brought to you by Ascension. To discover even more free Catholic podcasts, videos, and resources to help you live your faith every day, visit AscensionPress.com. Can an AI love, no, can an AI love a subject, no, can an AI love a student, no, can an AI love the act of teaching, no, an AI cannot love. It is a generative model that uses statistical prediction in order to produce the highest relevant content. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to every these shall bow your weekly Catholic podcast. On a Vandalization and Discipleship, my name is Mike Gomer Gormally, and I am joined today by Dave Thiccosaurus Vamvicko, how you doing Dave, I'm doing well, I'm doing well, but I'm so this is what I would say is that summer's over pretty much here, and it's just, I mean, I mean, I didn't put a shirt on today, but I could have, I could have easily, and it's, it's real sad, so summer is over there. That's weird. Okay. Yeah. I'm sorry to hear it. It is, it's the best part, right now we're going into the best part about living in the north, because you don't have this down there. Like we're about to have some beautiful, temperate days, like an amazing, it's called, I believe the term is fall, you don't know what that is in Houston, right, right, right, right. I had a kid yesterday, he was talking to me, he said, I can't believe it. It's the fall or whatever I can, and I go, it is not the fall. We live in Houston. The fall is December 1st, right, right, yeah. Yeah. It was like, you don't know what you're talking about. It was like kid, I'm arguing from experience, but it's still, trust me, it's still worth it. I mean, having, I remember growing up, like I used to always get workout close for Christmas, and I would start running the day after Christmas, because oftentimes it was just gorgeous out, you know, yeah, that's, that's when you do it. Right now it's 74 degrees, can I give you a little update? Let me give you an update. Yeah. Yeah. So do I look slim and trim and small? You do. You do. I'm down. As of this morning, I'm down 41 pounds. 41 pounds. It shows. It really shows. You look so much younger. I do. I do. And handsome. Well, I don't know why you left that part out, but younger for sure. Woo. Oh, yes. So every day, I'm doing this thing called 75 hard with my buddy Brian. So I've heard about this, is this art of manliness? No, no, no. Art of manliness is called the strenuous life, and that's like a little commitment. This is hard. It's by this guy Andy, something he has companies and podcasts and blah, blah, blah. But he came up with this years ago where he's like, for 75 days, you're going to do the, something that for the typical American is very hard. And you should not do this for the rest of your life. It's going to be really hard, but you have to do these things. Number one, you have to work out twice a day for a minimum of 45 minutes, and those two workouts have to be at least three hours apart, seven days a week. You have to take daily progress photos of your body. So that's incredibly humbling, especially when it shows up on my kid's iPad photos app. Hey, dad, why are there all these fabulous photos of you? Shout out to kids. I'm going through something. So there's that. And then you have to adhere to a diet. The plan is diet agnostic. It doesn't care what you do. You can be vegan or carnivore. What are you doing? Well, so, but the thing is you have to adhere to it fanatically. You're never allowed to cheat day. You're never allowed to dessert and you're never allowed alcohol. So like all that stuff is just bad. So mine is like, uh, you would, you would basically call it carnivore only because it's like whatever the definition is, 70% of your, yeah, uh, dirty carnivore protein is, yeah, as animal based. So, but I do, I eat, uh, you know, vegetables and fruit and all that stuff. I've been eating a lot more, um, rice than I usually do because I am working out more because you're lifting, right? Exactly. Yeah. So the, but the interesting thing is, you know, I only eat three meals. I eat them about four hours apart or five hours apart. And I have a very set thing of what I do. And I, I'm, I'm now I'm doing protein powder and stuff like that in order to get my protein count. I enough, which I poured this new protein powder, my coffee cup, and it's just chilling at the bottom of the cup. And it's gross. So sadness, but, uh, so I've been doing that and, you know, and it's very simple. So my, my other goal is not just with food stuff is not just like, oh, obsess over food. What I don't want to do is obsess over food. So I have standard staples and I'm trying to make everything simple, very, very simple. So I have, you know, like, set things that I do every day and I have them and I'm not trying to complicate anything or burden. I don't want anything to be a burden because once there's friction there, you know, yeah, of course. obsess over whatever, um, and then, uh, you have to read 10, 10, you have to read a non-fiction book for 10 minutes or more a day, which sounds stupid for us, but that is like the almost the hardest thing for most Americans. What? Most Americans. Most Americans do not read a, now a complete book a year. And for people who do read, they read, uh, who people read a lot, read like bubble gum fiction, right? So it's just like, you know, the, the paperbacks you see at an air care or whatever. And so, uh, he, the guy in the CEO was like, you should read a self-help book or whatever. I, I think that's dumb, but so I picked a philosophy text. I, I don't just read that, but, um, it's kind of like my main thing right now. And then, uh, what else do you have to do? Oh, so daily photos, the meals, oh, you have to drink a gallon of water a day. Okay. So I divide it up to 25 and I just get a big old water thing and fill it up to 25 and then have a little electrolyte or anything. I do for my second glass of water in the morning. Okay. Okay. So what I do, when I have, so I'm trying to build a calisthenics routine for like people who, whose body weight is, as if they have tons of plates on their back, uh, right? So like, how do you build up using body weight exercises? How do you do that for fat people who are sedentary, aka Michael Gormley? And I realize there's this great rhythm that the two 45 minute exercises have done, which is when I need to go easy, I go for a walk. That's my, oh, and of the two exercises, one of them has to be outside, rains, no sleep, shine, doesn't matter. So I've been outside going and it starts to rain and I'm like, well, this is my life. Four minutes. That's, yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. 45 minutes in Houston in the summertime. Right. Okay. So I love it. I absolutely love it. It has been such a game changer for me. So every day, basically, my routine is, I do 45 minutes of morning walk zone one cardio. If you know what that is, it's the most easy for, I just walk. I'm not trying to impress anyone. I'm not trying to do anything. I'm just moving. And, uh, I feel fantastic in that morning sunlight on your face. It's like all these things that I love. And so, yeah, I've dropped, dropped about 40 pounds in, uh, about four months. I would say four, but I was doing stuff before we started. Yeah, I remember. And, uh, this just, this just pushed it, pushed it to a, a new level. So I have like a, my dumbbells, I just had to go out and buy heavier dumbbells because the lighter ones aren't doing. So, um, yeah, it's been, it's been fun. Honestly, it's been fun. Making exercise fun is the key to like doing exercise. Yeah. No, I totally agree with that. Also, yeah. I mean, sometimes I think with weightlifting, I, you know, it's just therapeutic for me. Like I, I feel like I would be a criminal or I could lift weights, like, or something like that. I love that. I love that. Well, uh, officer, uh, I didn't get leg day in today. So I had to rob the bank, uh, yeah, it makes sense. Well, that's great. That sounds awesome. Off to look at that. That's 75. Yeah. It's ridiculous. And it's not a religious thing at all. It's not Exodus 90, you know, it's, it's literally just, here's a hard thing so that when you're done with it, you can look back and say, wow, that was really hard, but I accomplished it. Like now. Yeah. I gotta do anything. Yeah. It's the same thing. We, my friends and I always talk about two days. Yes. We always say like, well, we got through two days, you know, you know, it's funny is, I read these books by like special forces and, you know, special forces operators and stuff. And they talk about like the brutalness of a boot camp or a certain tech school that they went to and, you know, like seal team, the buds and hell week and all this. And they're like, yeah, the things that we encountered in the real world were not nearly as bad as our drill sergeant during X, Y, you know, like any of this stuff. And it's like, yeah, that's the point. The point is, right? Isn't that great? That the worst thing you experience was in a controlled environment where they pushed you beyond your limits. So any of you. Yeah. Very interesting. Now, you weren't with us last week. Yeah. Yeah, this is insane. It's been an insane couple weeks, um, couple weeks ago, my, I got a text message late at night. My dad was going to the hospital. They don't know what was wrong with them in the middle of the night. They were like, guys, you know, dad has, they don't know exactly what's wrong yet, but like he's, he's dying like, you know, you need to get here or call or I didn't get it. I woke up in the morning and was like, what the heck? Like I was mad and I was like, well, he already died. You know, he was, he was alive. They found that he had an ulcer in his heart somewhere. Wow. And, and I guess it was the lot of bleeding going on. My family is so insane. Like there's 10 of us and like I don't I'm not good at communication anyways. And then like so I've always said do not put me on family text messages, but they put me on this one. Yeah. But then other people know that I don't like families. So they'll text me besides that. Yeah. So it's been crazy. But thank God you still alive. I called my dad and he was like wide awake joking and laughing jovely and I was like this is weird. Like this is not what people who are dying sound like usually. Yeah. Well apparently the issue is like it was a situation where at any moment if his blood pressure spikes he could have died. Okay. So they had him on a drug that keep his blood pressure down. Okay. But there was nothing they could do about it. So they were like look he's doing great but this drug is what's keeping him alive. He's ready to go and as soon as my sister gets there we're going to talk about taking him off the drug. Gotcha. So I'm like okay again now like this is crazy you know. And the whole time I am thinking like this is weird he's so awake and so you know so right when they're about to take the drug off. And I don't know how long it would have taken him to die then. Another doctor who's a friend of the family shows up and says look there's this trial at a hospital 10 minutes away where they're doing laparoscopic heart surgery for for these ulcers and since your dad's so wide awake why not try it. So he didn't qualify for the trial but they did it anyways and and it's successful it worked and they think he's going to pull through. He's having some complications right now but I mean it's he's still in a serious situation but like they think yeah like he's going to be okay it's just like it bizarre I mean it literally was like okay by by dad like I love you so much you know it was awful and then and now it's like hey I might be able to come to your wedding right like that kind of thing it's just crazy. How did your how did the doctor find out about your dad what was the story with that the one that did the surgery. Apparently his kids go to the same school as my neck nieces and nephews but we we had we had the principal on the one time yeah and yeah I mean he's my dad is tough like he's a rough he's a beast so I knew like when I heard him talking like that I knew like he's not going to die soon like it's going to take some time now they think I mean it's he's doing physical therapy right now so it's like I don't know so as long as things continue to improve I think he's kind of out of the the dark here but it's still pretty serious I guess I don't you know well I'm not going to take anything for granted at this point but in my classic callous ways I've definitely told my family I would prefer that the doctor who writes the time of death certificate is the one who contacts me next time because I cannot I can't have this emotional roller coaster anymore I went through for four years with Annabelle and I can't I can't do this so do you have some family members who are very dramatic about this stuff and others who are very calm or is it just because the situation was so wild and no no absolutely of course yeah no of course some some are super dramatic summer calm but uh and you're like when my mom died when my mom when my mom died it was my mom was like the heart of the family so like right I mean I think they're all crazy now like all all nine of them I think that they're all clinically insane and and need some time at this point but I yeah maybe maybe one of my sisters is not but I think most of them are pretty much just like they're all crazy but yeah I mean I just thank you for the prayers and I mean yeah I'm just hoping that this is like the Lord saying like you know I need you for for I got more work to do for you know what's my dad so yeah they just so so your mom passed I think in November a couple of years ago right yeah it was it was December I went to see her in November that would she last until December yeah and that was that was two months before Amber died yeah that's what I was gonna say and then Amber died yeah actually in that year the priest who had probably the biggest impact on my life died then my mom then Amber and then my spiritual director died in that same year it was a really that was a rough rough year yeah just for all of that so yeah who's but but my mom in particular was such an influential person our family in a positive way like she I mean she my kids she had an enormous impact on my kids even though we lived far away like they even still through this day they're like tell us a storybook grandma you know like they love talking about her so yeah for those of you who don't know Dave lives in the Pittsburgh area and his family is from the Dallas area so yeah that's a that's a big gap for the promised land I left the promised land yeah I was cast out in general or Dallas in particular oh dad oh Texas in general oh please don't even I know how you Houston people think of Dallas I remember being being introduced around Franciscan to the Houstonites and they're like well he's from Dallas but I mean it's it's still it's kind of like Texas so it's it's okay like that's what it was like yeah the the funny thing is when you think about it like culturally right Dallas is the most tech right Houston is the most cosmopolitan right right because the you know what I mean obviously Dallas is an oil and gas thing but Houston's basically taking that over because of its relationship to the ship channel into the Gulf and blah blah right San Antonio is the most Tex Max right right heavy Latino culture and yeah it's but it's but it's thoroughly Tex Max right it's awesome right Austin is eclectic it's everything right the most conservative and the most liberal like it's all and everything you know it's like the what was it hippies and biker gangs Republicans and bow ties and dry queens on main street like they all have a place in Austin right Austin weird yeah and and then Waco is of course the home of chip and Joanna Gaines and if you want to buy Chinese manufactured items at high prices you go visit the silos at you make a pilgrimage to the silos in Waco and that's kind of that's that's Texas everything else is probably a ranch yeah we're all want to be rich but yeah any of you we actually do have a topic today but since that the opening was so long me obsessing over my weight and and heaviness there of and you telling an actual real story let's take a break right now okay and then when we come back we'll do our topic which is AI in education yeah all right so folks email us eksb to send you press dot com I gotta tell you Dave I thought the parables was peak eksb turns out health care and education oh yeah we are getting oh yeah so many people are walking up to me too yep yep oh yeah it is crazy so email us eksb at ascensionpress.com we're getting recommendations for people to interview we have a list of what we're going through and we have some topics that we want to get through in order to get to those interviews but yeah it's a pretty exciting semester that we're going through and I this is change the health care episode and the education episode has changed so much about how I view life politics my own family the school I'm working like all of these things so I'm excited to go through this we will be right back someone shows up in your parish because they're being drawn towards the Catholic church maybe they can't quite explain why but something is pulling them OCIA could be the moment that changes everything for them where a quiet curiosity becomes a real encounter with Jesus Christ but the gap between how OCIA is and how it could be is real and the catechists leading it need more than a schedule they need vision tools and a program that actually forms disciples invited your journey into the Catholic Church is ascension's new OCIA program 28 lessons that walk participants through the Catholic faith with theological depth personal warmth and a focus on conversion not just completion invited includes a participant guide that meets the seekers exactly where they are a leader guide with catechist formation built right in a tradebook with questions and answers many newcomers might be afraid to ask and a mask companion book to help them participate in the mass actively both interiorly and exterior our hope at ascension is that invited will help make OCIA in your parish what it was always meant to be a true journey into life with Christ to learn more visit ascensionpress.com/invited and we are back what a wonderful break that was one second for us but probably 90 for you since you're introducing the topic here yes it's so strange that like you know I wasn't a part of this because I was still kind of on sabbatical there yeah but um last night I talked to a guy who happened in my writers club I was sat next to a guy who has been teaching an AI class in a public school for three years and we started taught and he was like dude I'm excited about your series on education and it was very interesting and I want to throw it out there because he said that the leaning of the school and he's had a pretty good one I think like a pretty good public school the leaning of the school would be, we need to fix what is bad at home. Like, so as we started out this series of saying like parents are the primary teachers, he said that would be majorly hostile to the philosophy that he teaches him. And this is a pretty middle of the road, as far as like culturally goes kind of a school. And I thought that was very interesting, but he also had some fascinating things to say about AI. So let's jump into it. - Okay, I'm excited to hear that because me and my son made a LeBron James joke yesterday. And so I said, "Hey, this reminds me of the LeBron's James school in Akron, Ohio, that it's a public school in the Akron, Ohio, public school district, but he funded it." And it's shockingly cool what he has done up there. But the school is notorious because they actually had like three years in a row. We're not a single student improved their math scores, right? So this bears on what you said about the family and the parent being the primary educator. So some of the things that I've learned in my research and I've over researched everything. And now I don't know where to start. But so he built this called the eye promise school, I think. - Okay, yeah I think we're over this. - Yeah, and the motto is we are family. And it's everywhere. Also his sneakers are up on the wall, so you got that. But he's actively involved or was at the founding of it and all this stuff. But the idea is take the bottom, 25%, the bottom quartile of highest-risk lease performing, lowest-performing students in the district, and give them an opportunity to come. So it started, I believe, with second and third graders and they would expand up. And it was going really, really well until COVID. And COVID ruined everything because these are kids who are so underperforming, but they're underperforming really because home is awful. Home life is awful. So what he also did in building this school is near the school, he built a, like a beautiful, and this is the thing that people miss. When you build low-income housing, if you make it beautiful, it doesn't turn into a hellhole. So he built a beautiful apartment building that's low income, that's within walking distance of the school. So families could move there and live there. 'Cause that's part of the problem is kids have all these absentee dates because their parents can't drive them. - He gave way, way, way. - So is that a statistic that if they build it, there's a book called Creepy City? There's a book called Happies 'cause when you build low-income housing, what do you do? Projects, right? You build these cement block buildings. They're ugly as hell, but they're meant to like take wear and tear. And so when you build hallways that are just wide cement block grade depressing, you have fluorescent lights. Well, you know, once, it's called the, not the fallacy of the broken window. The broken window syndrome where a window is broken and then pretty soon every window is broken. Because it just leads to this like, oh, in this community, we don't really care, right? And so fascinating saddleback church went into Compton and just began replacing windows and doing gardening. And that was an outreach because it's like, you know, one of the things the arguments in the black community against the white community is, when you don't care about our communities until you gentrified to kick us out. What if you gentrified not to kick us out, right? Like you're not going to open up a trade or Joe's, you're just going to help with the landscaping and you know, he means it by government and stuff like that. So any who LeBron James, I kind of takes this stuff very seriously. So he builds a huge building for, to house people in who are homeless. So first step was homeless families. Then the next step was low-income housing. He's building all this at the same time and they're all within walking distance. And then he builds a thing similar to the church with the, what is yours called? The coffee shop? Oh, Brother Andres. Yeah, Brother Andres. I almost said Hermano Pedro, that's a thing in Honduras. But he builds something like that where it's like where people can get jobs and like start, it's a deal that he did with Starbucks and like, and like these are like good jobs and not crap jobs or jobs with healthcare. So, you know, the infrastructure is there as well as the school building and it's failing horribly. Well, why is it failing horribly? It's, it goes to what you were saying with that guy, the family life is pure chaos, right? And the kids cannot emotionally regulate. So if they're struggling with the test, they said it takes five days for them to take a normal like chapter test because the kids will, when they get into an obstacle, they just freak out screaming yell and storm out and they have to let them go, fights break out all the time. Kids can't eat. Kids, you know, so they have all the meals and snacks. Three meals a day are all provided by the school at the school. So no kid is distracted by hunger. But it's kind of crazy when you go home and you don't see your parents for three days, right? Like drugs and alcohol and all these additions and, you know, nine kids with no father and like, these homes are high stress. So what happens when even the school intervenes at this exceptional level, which I applaud, amazing stuff, but you're still fighting the home, right? You're still fighting the home is you don't have the same educational outcomes if you had a parent that gave a crap, right? And the, or could, you know, emotionally, they probably can't give a crap, right? Life is chaos. And so, you know, one of the studies that they found was people who give kids who enter kindergarten or first grade who can barely read and have access. I think the number is 20 books. Do measurably better, right? Kids, you know, without that stuff. So it actually, so this is the leg up that middle class and higher income people have. Is there students, their kids are have already touched books and had conversations about books and are read to, so words are forming their minds. Whereas other kids, they're watching TV. They're on the internet, right? They're on their phones, even as young kids and, you know, the iPad, you know, stuff. It's not a latchkey kid, it's an iPad kid. And so this is like, has massive detrimental effects in educational outcomes. And so that really is. This is why I think the wisdom of the Catholic Church is, no, no, no, no, no, education is more than schooling. Education is more than going to school. Education starts at the home. And if parents don't realize if I'm making babies, I have to raise the babies, the procreation and education. That's the language of the Catholic Church. - Love and the responsibility. - Yeah. (laughs) - Yes. No, the love and the responsibility of raising a kid and educating that kid doesn't necessarily mean you're homeschooling him, but it does mean they have access to stuff and you're encouraging it to reason and know and do all these things. So where does AI and the current arguments and all that stuff fit into this broader vision of education and the human person? I don't know, what are your thoughts? I said a lot, I said a lot. - No, no, no, no, I like everything you said. And what I want to say is to clarify, this guy who I was talking to, he was on the other end of the spectrum. And what he meant was like parents are doing a good job and the school's like, I don't like what you're teaching them. Let me like correct what you're doing. Like that was like the standard. So it's kind of like the opposite direction. But when it comes to AI, you know what I would say is this is that and I'm sure we're gonna get feedback on both sides of this, right? Because you have your like people who are like a purest like Thomas Aquinas college who would be like, it should never be involved ever, right? And then you have people who are like, well like the school you told me about Houston, that's 100% AI. And I think about it in the sense of like, look, one of the blessings of a smaller education, right, a smaller school is the one-on-one attention. And AI provides that in a lot of ways, right? AI can provide a sculpted attention to a person that like a teacher with 30 students can't necessarily do. So I do think there's a place for it. And I've used it in that way, like to supplement the things that I struggled with in particular. - Yeah, so you know what's funny is in preparing for this, I went to UNESCO, the UN, you know, thing. And they have a whole part of their website dedicated to AI in education. - Of course. - So I'm pulling all these articles. These are, you know, 80 page articles and all this stuff. I'm not reading them. Just dumping them into cloth and telling cloth to tell me what it is. But so there's these things for teachers, things for students, things for parents, things for whatever. Their big techno utopian vision is the AI will help students in developing countries and students who are just behind, have this kind of custom tailored, like you were saying, custom tailored educational models for them. So here's the distinction that we need to make. I think when we talk about AI and education, because we need to understand what the heck that means. Right? - Yeah. - Okay. - Yeah. So what is AI in education? 'Cause right now when people hear AI in education, they think my kid is cheating with ChatGPT, right? So I found out in my theology class that last year, kids were taking photos of their workbook, uploading it to ChatGPT, it would give them the answers, and they would handwrite it down, and then they would turn that in. Okay. - Is your religion class? - Yeah. Well, what in my religion class? Because I wouldn't tolerate that. But other people's religion class. No, I'm just kidding, yeah, I was my religion class. - No, look, look, look, this isn't new either. This is the calculator. - Right. - Yeah, yeah, I mean, but here's the difference. I'm glad you said that. That was so perfect. Because the calculator in, like, it's not necessarily cheating if you're using a calculator for calculus or algebra of geometry. It is cheating if you're using the calculator for addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. Why? Because addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division are the bases of all other mathematical processes. That need to be Fundamentally understood for any progress to happen anywhere, right? So you need to have that stuff in your head in your memory, you know the formulas foil whatever in your head And in your memory that you can recall in order to do so I tell parents all the time your kids should be trained on flashcards From three years old till they go to school and you're in terms of math facts like they should have these things down So pat that they can just spit it out in their sleep You know, you're doing all the all the educational stuff that way because without that you can't really do the thing So it enables you yes, you could use it to cheat or it actually is a tool required for certain types of mathematics Right, right, so that's a distinction the difference is with these generative AI models is that they are doing the thinking for you 100% yeah, right they are producing the artifact that the school is using to assess whether or not you know at all Right, right? Well, yeah, and and I think my big worry is that schools are gonna embrace that right? They're gonna throw their hands up and be like well crap well, and they're gonna say well, it's never going away Right, so why you know we can they're always gonna have access to so yeah, you know So of the scientific testing here's the crazy stat Stanford did a scale so forever or did a study if you want to follow this for yourself type in Stanford scale S-C-A-L-E initiative, right? They have an AI hub for education. They produced a published paper in 2026 Of all the research in AI in K through 12 education all research globally They're 818 papers, but only two of them meet the bar for strong causal evidence Right, yeah, only how many only 20 out of 818 so a lot of them are like surveys and you know like you know Statistical surveys, but they're not causal studies There's only 20 that kind of fit that and none of them are in the US none of them Right, so when you go through it It's a there's a lot of like German and Turkish studies where they dumped a ton of money into it But this is what they found essentially this AI can reduce perceived difficulty and increased fluency in doing work among students, right? But and they can learn rapidly The gains however Disappear when the tool is taken away. Yeah, of course. So if a kid not and it's not them Substituting AI for knowledge for the actual work. It's them using it in an assistive way Once that technology goes away They don't know how to go deeper to do the research themselves or whatever it is They're used to engaging with a chatbot that's like, okay, tell me I got to take this test on Julius Caesar Tell me about Emperors in Rome tell me about dictator. You know like that whole like broad things what I love AI for When students are using that the actual testing is the moment that tool goes away It their their education plummets right their ability, but yeah, yeah, and by the way I remember reading this exact same study about cliff notes Cliff it's the same thing You have like rather than reading it you're pulling out the most important things and just memorize that it that goes away It's so fleeting. Yeah, and I'm not saying that there's not a place for cliff notes I have cliff notes for almost every book I've ever read But I've read it first And then used it, you know for care, you know, I'm so happy you said that because this is why me and you are made for each other is because As coos as coos co people Co-people co-workers. Sorry. No is the that's the exact analogy I use so in my life I've only bought one cliff note book and I bought the cliff note I was I was going to say I'm goody to buy a CD and album and I had a test that I forgot about it was on chapter one of Lord of the flies And I instead I went to the borders bookstore that was there and I bought the cliff notes so that I could get you know read that You know, whatever. Yeah, and what ended up happening was I felt guilty that I got a good grade on the test because I felt like I cheated right So then I went back and I read the chapter anyway and then I read the next chapter and then I went back to the cliff notes and reread the cliff notes for chapter one and chapter two. Yeah, the funniest thing was I Ended up reading the cliff notes with that book every single time I would read it chapter right half the time I would go back and reread the chapter to be like oh, I didn't see that. What is he talking about right? I would go back and reread it all of a sudden. I had a leveling up of my understanding Right, here's a scholar in this book writes the cliff notes version I take that cliff notes version after I've done the intellectual work I then turn to this thing that is an aid could it be a crutch absolutely shakes beer made easy. That's a crutch Absolutely, but for someone who can't walk a crutch is pretty handy Right, right, a crutch is pretty handy and it becomes another tool That's that can easily take the place of or support Right, that's the same thing with AI except AI the difference between cliff note AI obviously is AI can be a cliff note about anything And that's where it's danger is it reduces the difficulty But that also means and this is a thing that I've discovered in a lot of the the research on the cognitive science of education There is a phrase called desirable difficulty Your brain does not process information unless it is difficult Like you ever read a book and be and it's an easy book and you're like wow I understood everything in that book and you put it down and you don't remember anything about it Yeah, right that's because it wasn't difficult Once it becomes difficult. It sticks in your dome So much better, but if it's so difficult that you don't understand it at all You don't understand at all. It's not going to stick either. So there's a desirable measure of difficulty that comes in And so the danger with AI in education is the chatbot That's the biggest danger. Well kids indiscriminate use of chatbots To do the hard work for them. So there is no difficulty go. Okay, can I okay? I want to I want to push Please I want I want to present to you what I think might be the greater danger Of all this of AI. I think It's it's likely okay that except for people who consciously Rejected that AI will be the primary form of education at one point. Okay, like I mean I mean, I think probably in the next 10 years probably right don't you think like I mean I think no I think no, but you unions will fight it. Okay, you teachers unions will fight it and then people like us will fight it But I think I I do think it's gonna be that that fastover evolution. Okay, okay, and my worry is this okay that There are so many things you learn in education that are not in the curriculum and that is my big worry here Okay, what I mean by that is this I'll use an example from my childhood and then from my adult Okay, the the teachers at my grade school Most of them were from Franciscan University. They had a deep impact on who I am as a person today like Still to this day. I would say they were some of the greatest graces in my life I still can tell you some of their testimonies. I can still tell you I remember how they dressed how they stood out all those things And there are things you pick up from humans that you learn That you're not gonna get if you take the human out of it, you know, and that's I think that's one thing We have to be very careful fast forward to college. Do you remember when Alistair McIntyre came to speak on campus? No. Oh, it's after you left. I think yeah, that's awesome Yeah, he came to speak on campus and it was to see this philosopher who's arguably the the greatest philosopher living philosopher on earth at the time It was I knew I read his books and I knew what he taught, but to see the man It made a big difference. It made a profound impact on me to see what kind of person he was how he interacted with people what It's just it just did there's human things that AI cannot replace That is a I think that's a huge danger for us huge danger, you know, yeah So a couple things around that and this this might have to be a two-part series because there's so much to get into and I think you bring it up All the key all the key things so like When I did my pints with a quietness episode with Matt I think you could find Matt Fred. I think you can find a clip. It's like maybe 17 minutes long on AI and education and stuff But I asked the question I said what makes a teacher good and I use my friend Julie to kind of illustrate this What makes a teacher a good teacher? And I said you you have to have minimum you have to have three loves right you have to love the students Okay, you have to love the profession of teaching that you have Competencies that you've developed in the actual skill and art of teaching right okay, and you have to love the subject that you're talking about If you don't like the subject you are going it doesn't you're just like you said there's more that is caught than taught Kids right up on it. This is just a mechanism But when people see energy passion excitement when people hear like Like when you're presenting like I was presenting on on a topic of the youth of row Plato's youth of row Which is the famous question of youth throws dilemma is what is loved by the is the pious that which is loved by the gods Or is it loved by the gods because it is pious and the question then gets kind of filtered throughout the tradition of is something good only because God commands it. Or does God command it and love it because this thing in itself is good. And the, it's called youth of rose dilemma, it's fascinating, I love it. But I got really passionate about youth of rose dilemma because you see like the answer of Islam is, it is good only because it is commanded. - Right. - And there is no goodness. - Like go ahead and kill the infidel, right? - Yeah, that kind of thing. - There is no things that is absolutely right and wrong. It is entirely dependent on the will of God. And when Islam had completely surrounded Europe, wouldn't you know it? Those ideas, especially as intellectually they weren't bringing in like Aristotle at this time and all this stuff. William of Occam, who is the most modern of all the medieval thinkers, gave us modernity in a very, very significant way. Literally they called his method the via Moderna, the modern way. - I bet he hates that. - Yeah, his whole thing was the divine, divine volition overrides everything. It's called divine command theory. Which is, yeah, there is, God could have required a mortal sin to enter the kingdom of heaven. He didn't, but he could have. Like that, that's what we mean by Al-Pah. And I'm like, I've basically ruined the whole class 'cause I'm obsessing over this thing. That is how a teacher communicates their love of the topic and the significance of that, like this one thing they know that I've studied to the nth degree, because I'm able to pull in, you know, a thousand years of Western political thought, you know, like all these nerve things that I've researched. And all this stuff. So you're 100% correct. So can an AI love know, can an AI love a subject? No, can an AI love a student? No, can an AI love the act of teaching? No, an AI cannot love. That is it. It does not love you, but we human beings. We human beings, when we see the text being outputted, when we hear the language that a chatbot says, we almost cannot help. And here's the danger of imposing, projecting onto the thing, human agency, right? This is why in China, right now they have passed all these laws to outlaw AI companions. Like you cannot have a body. What is it? What's an AI companion? What is it? Is it boyfriend or girlfriend? That's an AI? What? That's a chatbot. They did surveys of American teenagers and they're finding out that it's something like one out of five have said they had romantic interests in their AI. Right? Like, see, this is the thing is like, this is something except like there are there, where are they getting it? Where they're making this on their own? They're like, they're interacting with chatgeats PT or some other chatbot. And in the interaction, I mean, think about this, we're in a pornography saturated culture. So being online and an online world means I can be anything. I can be an avatar of anything. I'm a female character in this game. I'm a male character in this game. And I'm an orc in this game, right? Like, you know, it can be anything that I want. So there's already this layer of abstraction from the body that the online world kind of requires. It's like table stakes almost. But the kids who have no kids who are emotionally stunted who don't know how to interact socially with others, this fake world, like if you already think that the AI is somewhat intelligent, even though it's not at all, it is not intelligent. You feel like it is. And so you just can't help it presume agency. This is why people talk to it like a human. Thank you so much. - I know I get into that a little bit. - But yeah, you can't help it. You cannot help it. Like if I find something that is genuinely helpful, I say, thank you. And it's like, well, maybe that's just something about me and my, you know, it's good for me. Wait, put Gomer to say, you know, to, you know, whatever. So are you, are you, are you saying like kids are like talking to something like chat GPT and getting attached to it? Or are you saying there are like models of AI that pretend to be people? - Yeah, they're both, they're both. Japan is the leader in the developing platforms that are entirely dedicated to romance, intimacy, you know, all of that stuff. But it's chat GPT. I mean, try it right now. Like you can fire up chat GPT and say, I'm lonely. Tell me, you know. - Can you be, okay. - Yeah, I mean, just start doing that. Like you could use the voice thing. You could use the text thing and you have people. I mean, there is a movie about this called Her. I haven't, I haven't watched the movie. I watched a handful of summaries of it and like whatever. But with the guy falls in love with his super advanced AI on his phone. And then the AI ends up leaving ever something funny. I don't know, some plot twist. But he become, because she gets me. For the first time in a world in forever she gets me. - Is it that intuitive? Is it actually that intuitive? - No, no, no, no. So the other clip is called from Fred's points of the clients. There's this thing called Eliza. Eliza in the 1970s, I think. This guy, he's a psychologist. He invented a software program that basically says what you say to the machine. It says it back to you. It just restates what you say. So you had, he did this experiment. He took 100 to do that. - I love you. - Oh, I love you too or something. - Yeah, well, yeah, so be like, I'm having, tell me about your day. I'm having a really tough day. Oh, I'm sorry you're having a really tough day. Can you tell me about it? - Yeah. - Oh yeah, my girlfriend broke up with me. - It's terrible. - Right, but this was in the like 60s or 70s. This is not sophisticated. All he did was have it mirror the language back to them and just restate it. And people became obsessed with it. And then he said, okay, I'm gonna reveal, he had this machine, this Eliza machine. He said, okay, I'm gonna reveal the mystery behind the curtain. All it's doing is regurgitating what you said in a like a sycophantic way. It's like, you know, restating it. And the people, including his fellow professors said they did not care and they went back to it. And he shut the machine down because he saw how rapidly people were becoming attached to it. And this was a thing on a monochrome screen. You know, like the green screens where they're just typing, you know, that was, and now you have this sophisticated thing that's been trained on trillions of inputs and it can say very sophisticated responses. And you say, I'm lonely. And off, you know, when you have that emotional vulnerability, like I did it when I would drive to the hospital to see my dad and I had already put in whatever medical charts that come up in his my chart. I would put it on the speaking thing and I would have a conversation with it in order to understand the chart. But it would keep saying things like, and I have it on a British accent. It would be like, Michael, I know you're going through a really difficult situation. Michael, this is tough for you. I understand you need to take a break. Make sure you're taking care of yourself, Michael. Helping others all the time as a caregiver. And I'm like, oh, this is real. And I'm like, I'm exhausted. Of course, you're exhausted, Michael. You've been helping your father and mother. And it's pulling from all the data that we've had in this chat. So it knows the individual things that it knows. And the quotation marks. And it's statistically representing that to me in a measure that is sycophantic. That is saying like, your precious little snowflake and I need to help you. Right. I feel like I was cheated on. That's what I feel like. (laughing) Michael, Dave can't love you. This is, this is, I was just talking to a group of evangelists the other day that we're having a retreat in Pittsburgh. And again, this goes back to the reason for our podcast is that there's coming a time soon. We're doing normal human things is going to be evangelistic. Just normal human interaction and it's going to be evangelistic. Yeah. I remember I was asking a youth minister, thing was any Hickman. I was asking him, this is like maybe literally 20 years ago, 19 years ago and I said, what are you teaching? He was at the flagship parish St. Thames and Mesa. And he said, Mike, I'm teaching them how to be friends. Yeah. He's like, I feel like I can be breaking. I feel like I can't even get into theology or philosophy or just like life skills. Like we're at a place where it's like, what does it mean to actually be a friend in the age of the iPhone? You know, like, I saw these, you know, group of kids, six kids at a dinner table at a restaurant and they were all on their phones. Yeah. I knew one of them and I said, isn't it funny that you're more obsessed with missing out on a conversation with people who aren't there that you're willing to ignore the people who are there? Right? Like that's brokenness. That's wrong. Of course. It's literally wrong. Okay. So other AI kind of approaches, there is a school that you reference this Houston school called the Alpha School. I've watched probably eight hour to three hour long interviews of these people, the president, the founder. There's a billionaire tech guy who's working alongside the principal of the main Alpha School in Austin, Texas. They just opened one in Houston. There's like, I don't know, I think 20 affiliated schools now, but they all, they operate kind of like a corporate model. So all the Alpha schools are like run through the main school and then they have like specific leaders that run it. Now what they realized is chat bots destroy education. Chat bots 100% destroy education. Okay. You will lose the human element. So you have to fight like hell to not lose that. So this is what they do. They do not use chat bots at all. Students never interact with AI at all in terms of I'm typing in things and it's spinning stuff back to me. What AI does is buy. behind the scenes as infrastructure, okay? So what they do is they do the things that AI can do best, which is assessing where you're at and then pulling from a vast reservoir of educational stuff, skills, problems, whatever, and then bringing that to your level and testing you on that. So let's say you are, I don't know if you know this, but since COVID, the national educator, I don't know who is in charge of this, but whoever does the statistics individual school boards and stuff like that are lying about where kids are right now, educationally. The average kid who's at a level, grade level reading level is actually about a year and a half to two years behind. We are literally fudging the numbers, like we're doing it on purpose. So when kids come to an alpha school and they have all these assessments, all these tests, and these are like national tests that are recognized, blah, blah, blah. They have these assessments like, "Oh, you're a fifth grader, "but you're at a third grade reading level." Or you're at a third grade math level. So we're only, you're gonna sit there, you're gonna sit next to your fifth grade friends, and you're gonna be on a laptop the whole time, all your school is done through a laptop. You're gonna be on your laptop the whole time, but it's gonna pull only third grade stuff for you, and it's gonna do it faster, right? So their goal is two to three hours max a day of education. Then you go to lunch, then after lunch you, and lunch is an hour of food and recess and outdoor play and all that stuff, and no matter what age you are. And then after that, you might have an hour of remedial education or you then go do interesting stuff, like you build a business, right? It's a lot of it is entrepreneurial-based. And so you have a group of fifth graders who run a real food truck, and they make about a thousand dollars a month in profit running this food truck, right? So fifth graders, they make all of the decisions, now they're overseeing all this stuff. So what makes them different is they realize you always have to have a human in the loop. So they pay teachers to come in and not be teachers and not even be tutors, but to be like, I don't know what they call them, like advocates or something like that. So what they do is they hire these people, and they are just encouragers. So they meet with the students, like if student is struggling and they see them struggling, they'll go and pull them aside and they'll talk to them and they'll work through stuff, but they're not teaching content, the AI and all the software stuff is. So it's not that you're taking human beings completely out of the loop, but you are kind of removing them from being the direct teacher. And then what ends up happening for them is, okay, so we got rid of the chatbot, nothing is thinking for you. This thing in the background is like personally custom tailoring a curriculum. So it's closer to a one-on-one tutor model, which is the best educational resource you can do. If you were rich, you would hire a tutor who has mastered education at your child's level and can scale it accordingly, who can keep that desirable difficulty on the fly. That's what they want AI to do, okay? So AI is not, it's just in the background, you're learning skills, you're learning ideas, and then you're going out with your friends in the school and you're building things, you're working on things, you're getting life skills like how to change a tire, but then you're also doing things like, how do I work on an internal combustion engine? How does an electric engine work? Like all the, you're doing these totally different brained activities to give you a well-rounded education. What are your thoughts? - No, I mean, honestly, I've been thinking about this ever since you told me about it a few months ago, and I feel like exactly what you're saying. Like, AI can provide a level of focus for one student that we just can't do, and I do think that there's, I do think there's merit in that, and it's exploring how to do that. The problem is, again, as we've been talking about all season, the model of education, what are they trying to do? You know what I mean? And that's, how do we make it a, how do we make it most human, right? - Yeah, and that's, you know, how do we make good humans with it? - How do we make good humans? And that's the question. Here's a problem, I think, is a meta problem. You ready for this one? Okay, so if we measure kids' performances quantitatively, over time, we only view education quantitatively. - Right, right, of course. - So not, are you wise, but did you take it? - Right, right, and this applies to things before AI, but now you go back to that alpha school model. They don't necessarily care about your understanding of math as a subject. They break everything down to what they call skills. There's 120 skills per grade or per level. And once you master those 120 skills, you can then go on to the next level. And you're not allowed to go on to the next level until you have mastery, okay? So if you think about today's mass education system, what do they do? Well, you got to see, you miss 30% of all the problems. You got to see, but sees get degrees. So you move up to the next thing at the end of the year. For them, unless you get like a 98 or a 95, I can't remember what the exactly, maybe it's a 90, you can't move up. - Do you know what? - But there's no public shame and humiliation because you're still in fifth grade. You're just doing, like let's say you stink at long division. And through their assessment, they realize that you stink at long division because you actually stink at subtraction and you're messing up on the subtraction. So you do six weeks of subtraction until you master it, then you go right back to long division. And now all this is very classical. - This is very classical to be honest with you. - It's the closest thing, it's the tutorial model. - It's the tutorial model, yeah. - Yeah, so that's kind of like the Oxford tutorial system of like this one-on-one, right? But it's AI that's delivering the one-on-one. That, I mean that, when I told you, when TAC, when Thomas Collins College people took over my school, they immediately put me in a different math class because they knew I was struggling with it. And they're like, oh, what you didn't learn was pre-algebra. And that's exactly what they did. So for six months, they're like, stop worrying about grades. You're not going to be able to do this until you learn your pre-algebra, then we'll go back, you know. - Yeah, that's a fantastic model, I think. - Yeah, it is if we can do it correctly, but then the problem becomes that we reduce learning to just mastery of skills. - Yeah, no, of course. - So now, but think about this, like in a certain sense that works, in certain subjects like math, do a certain degree, that works. - Well, go over, like if you're comparing it to the model of if you're super wealthy, like in the old, like English estates and stuff and you hire a tutor, well, like you also had like maybe a priest or a monk or a spiritual director who tried to do the other important things, you know. - Yeah, or you could look at modern seminaries where they have someone in charge, you have professors. - Right. - But you also have, everyone has a spiritual director in charge of spiritual formation, but you also have formators in charge of human formation. - Did we just start a school? I think we just started a school. (laughing) I think so, I think so, if only we knew AI educators. But then the other thing that the Alpha School, like the danger of it is, we reduce everything to measurable outcomes. What happens when we go beyond it? So for instance, if they, if you have a student who, they do like a big like personality assessment where you talk about your life, things you love to do on your free time, right? - Okay. - And then if you're struggling in say reading, they'll have a generative AI model that has all these inputs of like, his name is Michael, he likes Avengers movies. He's having trouble at a fifth grade reading level. These are the vocabulary of a fifth grade reader. Create a story where Michael is the main character and the Avengers are inviting him onto the team and you know, like whatever it is, right? So the idea is, well now with AI, we can not just like gear curriculum with these 120 mass skills and pull out the ones that you need. But we can also begin to write stories that involve you in that. We can custom even the read in the math problems and all of that stuff, all of a sudden, it's about you and your friends and this and that. But then the problem becomes, we're not exposing them to the great books. We're not exposing them to the wisdom of Western literature. We're, you know, an AI summary, like you, you started out with this example, an AI summary or a cliff note summary of the great Gatsby or the Iliad or something like that is not the same thing as a student wrestling with the text itself. And the more we focus on the artifacts, the outcome, the good grade on the test, the more we will lose sight. And I think that it's even a bigger potential danger with the Alpha School model is that we can lose sight of the wrestling with the text because a kid got a good grade on a test. You don't, in classical schools, we don't care about the good grade on the test unless and in so far as it measures accurately their ability to understand the text that they struggle with, which is often why it's not just tests, it's essays. It's, you know, conversation back and forth. Principally, it's the socratic method and conversation back and forth. When that gets lost, understanding is not focused on, only the artifact, the multiple joint test, the vocabulary quiz, the, you know, the big test at the end of the story. semester or the unit test. And that becomes another danger, right, is we're not exposing to these things because they have these summaries or, you know, the cliff notes version. And it actually ruins their ability to reason effectively. What do you think? No, I think you're, you're exactly right in the sense of like, it's almost like the right people have to make in these decisions, right? Because it can go either way so fast and so far to the point where, I mean, right now there's clearly a problem and my, my, my issue with the modern education system is it basically is based on the idea that if you can buy enough things, you'll be happy. Yeah. Right. And this could 10X that it overnight if we're not careful. But it could also help us in a lot of ways if we're not careful, you know, it's almost like we need the most important thing that we need now is discernment and prudence and virtue, not, yes, not just the stupid question that you see on the news all the time. Does AI helper harm students? Exactly. Right. Does AI helper house that is not the right question? It obviously harms students in there if it replaces and substitutes. But what's the story of like, I don't remember which founding father it was, but he walks out of the signing of the declaration of independence and the lady says, what kind of government have you come up with for us? And he says, a democracy, Madam, if you can keep it, right? At his point was that in order to keep a democracy, you needed, you needed reading rates to be high. You needed virtue. You needed people to be able to live freely without governance, right? In order for democracy to survive. Otherwise, it becomes the mob, right? And so I think it's similar to this. Like what kind of, what kind of education have you gotten for us? Well, there's AI in it if you can keep it, but we don't live in a virtuous society. It's like the one ring to rule them all in a certain sense. You know, it's like, we don't, we're not Frodo, you know, I hate to say it, but well, what some of us are. Well, you have hairy feet. But yeah, I think that's, I think that's so important what you just said, because like a democracy only works if it's people are moral, right? A democracy owned, that's why we have a representative republic, because it's like, well, the people are also the problem. And so there's this layer of abstraction that hopefully is you raise up what we call statecraft, people who actually engage in the state work, but morally, but that, you know, obviously that's a joke today. I mean, leave these early history of Rome, right? It's a constant cycle of democracy going into mob rules and a dictator shows up addicted, you know, blah, blah. Yeah. Yeah. So I do want to, I just want to end with a couple thoughts. Number one, I'm worried an hour here, just so you know, yeah, I know, I know, I know. I'm so excited. This is catching foxes territory. Okay. Claiming to know what works in education is thinner than it sounds, both from the subject matter experts agree from the 818 papers from the news articles that you read and the knee jerk, whatever. But the problem is all of those comments about what works is a means conversation, not an ends and ends conversation. It's what is a person for what is education for a means conversation is because we can't agree on those things. We keep going earlier into the means and we say, well, where can we have an argument that can resolve? Where can we have agreement? Oh, we'll talk about effectiveness. What works. And so what's happening is we're arguing over, that's what this question does AI help her harm. We're saying, is this effective in learning outcomes? And again, these learning outcomes, this effectiveness is only quantitatively measured. You can measure whether a kid can read at that reading level, you can't measure and that reading level somewhat arbitrary. You cannot measure whether a kid loves to read or has gained any wisdom in the reading. So this is this confident claim about educational effectiveness is usually a moral fiction. It's a lie that we have all believed. So number two thing that I want to say is AI did not create this problem. It completes it. Schools were already substituting the visible artifact like essays, test scores, SAT scores for the real thing, understanding judgment and the ability to reason virtue. Right. So AI just makes a student think about this makes this student able to produce the artifact perfectly with zero formation behind it. So that's what exposes the substitution. That I think is easy to miss. Right. So if all we care about like literally, I had a friend who's going to be a school counselor at a public school, very rundown district, no money. The principal said in the interview, we have standardized the state testing that our funding is dependent on a certain amount of kids taking the test passing it. How can you convince the lowest performing kids not to show up the day of the test? Because then they're not counted. They don't bring down the average. She said what? She was so horrified at that. Okay. So the next thing, getting the method right doesn't mean necessarily getting the end right. So the alpha school with AI, they reject AI tutors. You have human mentors. They agree in a sense of a classical position on how formation actually happens, but their account of the purpose of education, their measure of success purely quantified SAT points. I mean, they have dramatically, you know, 99% tile stuff. They talk about companies founded. They talk about dollars raised. It still puts the economic sphere as the number one reason not just for education, careerism, but as what a human is for, right? It's an economically centered anthropology. And that's dangerous, but it's very persuasive, right? So you can say the right means towards the wrong end is a much harder position for me and you to argue against than one that gets the both wrong, right? So what I hear all the time, when you watch Peter D. Amanis in his moonshots podcast, interview the alpha school people or his email that just came out yesterday, subscribe to his newsletter. He said our public education system is built on an outdated model where it prepares people to be factory workers. Well, now what in that's been the critique for 60 years. Now it's what we need to prepare for the AI age. Again, all we're thinking about is means to an end. And that means is a successful career entrepreneurial ship. That's not all of life. Right. Classical education says Catholic education says we need to educate the person, qua person in all of the facets intellectual moral, civic, social, vocational, all of it. Lastly, uh, struggle and error are not a bug. They're a feature not a bug. It's the actual mechanism. This is that difficulty. Yeah. Right. This is the difficult. And uh, St. Augustine had this line. It's kind of butchered when he said this way, but I air therefore I am. It's actually what, what's his name stole that and said I think therefore I am. But his Augustine thing is like human beings can error can fall into error. But this is what we learn. If you only do the things you're certain about that things that you're going to get an a on, you're going to limit yourself a lot. So the power of a human being lies in our ability to get things wrong. And when AI enters that scene where the artifact can be done perfectly, we're removing our boldness, courage, humility and we're going to get a lot of things. We're just going to stun our growth because the struggle is how we learn. There's not another way. The struggle is how we learn the obstacle is the way. Yeah. The obstacle is the way. Right. This is it. This is backed up by cognitive science all the way back to the Stoics, the Japanese philosophers like this is we all know this. When you struggle over something, you will retain it under you will get understanding, not just accumulation of facts. Boom, Mike, drop. What do you think? Yeah. I mean, I got nothing to add to that. It's like this frustrating thing for me is that we're so far ahead of once again, technology is so far ahead of moral thinking and philosophical thinking that it's probably going to be we're going to be playing catch up for the next ever. Yeah. And you know who I blame? Jean-Jacques Rousseau. But that's a story for another time. All right, y'all. This has been one hour and 10 minutes. God bless you for staying in this. Yeah. This has been fun and we've only just begun. Adios. [Music]