The President’s Club Mindset | Inside the Behaviors, Beliefs, and Discipline of Elite Sales Performers with Bob Kocis

[MUSIC] Welcome to the Revenue Builders podcast, a weekly show featuring "Beauty of These Sales Leaders" and "Executives." Posted by five-time CRO John McMahon and "Force Management" co-founder John Kaplan, the show takes guests in the barrel. Behind the scenes with the people who've been there, done that, and seen the results. Revenue Builders covers best practices for scaling and growing your business, while sharing the pitfalls to avoid. Enjoy today's episode. [MUSIC] Welcome to the Revenue Builders podcast. Our guest today is Bob Cosis. He's the author of the book, "The President's Club Mindset." Bob has been selling since 1994, where he started at Nalco Chemical. In any joint PTC, where he led the global channel and emerging markets. After that, he moved to Shanghai for PTC to lead the Asia Pax sales. Bob then went on to answer says the Chief Revenue Officer, before moving to a PE-backed company named Continuum. Today, Bob is the Chief Operating Officer at an ERP provider named AppTM. Bob has interviewed many top presidents club winners to author his new book, "The President's Club Mindset." So welcome, Bob. How are you? Doing great, John and John. Thanks for having me here today. Really appreciate it. Where are you? I'm actually in Orlando, Orlando, Florida in a hotel. I'm going to be delivering a keynote for a tech company in the morning. All right, at least you're warm. That's right. Yeah. That's the reason. All right, so Bob, let's separate presidents club winners, at least in the characteristics that separate presidents club winners, or consistent president club winners from average performers. Yeah, great question. I'm going to start with the most obvious one that's out there, which is attitude and effort, right? That presidents club winners, elite winners, people that went it over and over again, the elite performers. Man, they just have this way. They have an appositive attitude. They raise everybody around them in the company, right? They just, the energy they bring when they enter a room. And then the effort they put out, and how they treat everyone around them, but also the effort they put out, it's kind of contagious, right? So that's the first thing I would say. I would say the other thing, which came out in a book in a big way, when I did the interviews, and I wouldn't have expected it to come out this way, but it was curiosity. Like, it came out over and over again, as people would tell me as an interview to them that these elite performers, they stayed curious, right? They followed their sales processes. They did all the stuff they were taught, but they stayed curious and kept going deeper and deeper and unpacking really what they were solving for the client. And that, they said a lot of them said that was one of their big keys to success was taking, you know, what they learned, and just really staying curious at kind of a next level. Proactive selling came out big. Guys is another big key reason people were successful, and finding ways to make things happen, that they knew what happened in the future, but make it happen early, and be proactive and how they approached it. So that was one. When they mentioned in the book, that you do mention in the book that I wanted to touch on, and it might be retort, the characteristic you mentioned was resilience. And it might be a rhetorical question, but talk a little bit about why resilience is so important in enterprise sales. Yeah, that's great. I think the, you know, a couple things. One is, I think, the ability, you're going to be told no a ton, right? You're going to be getting told no all the time every day, and you just got to keep pushing forward, and keep understanding that, you know, that's just part of what you're going to hear. I mean, we all hear it all the time, right? Especially in the professions that the three of us are in, and we've seen it over and over again. So being resilient, being able to not let that affect what you do and how you do it, I've seen a lot of sellers where it affects them, right? They get down, they get negative. They're not, they don't want to call the customer back. I tell a story about a Gong rap. I don't tell in a book, but I tell this story a lot of times when I'm on stage. She called me 15 times, and I did not answer the call 15 times, but the 16 times she called me, right? I actually had the problem she was trying to solve. And I actually ended up buying a solution from her as a CRO at that point. But if she wouldn't have called that next time, I probably would have bought outreach or some other product. It did the same thing. Okay. So I think that resilience, that ability to be persistent, to be resilient, to continue to charge on knowing that you were going to deliver something for that client. And I think it's, it's, it's, I wish everybody had it. They don't, but it does. I think it really separates the, the elite from, from the average. Yeah, like you said, you're going to get knocked down a lot, especially in a long sale cycle, six to nine runs, six to 12 months. It's, and a lot of times people just try to cut things short, instead of staying patient, like, like you were talking about. But I want to go back to one of the things she said is that they raise everyone around them and they collaborate. So what I've also noticed is that the really good reps know how to collaborate with product engineering, finance. It seems like they get everybody on their team. And it's like everybody's working on their team to help them do these big deals. Can you talk a little bit about, about that? Yes, for sure. You see, we see reps out there who will complain to managers that they don't have resources. But the actual best of the best, they're taking all the resources. Why? Right. Because they are the quarterback. The resources know if they're with that person, the chances of winning the deal are way higher, right? They're going to have more fun. They're going to be taken care of. They're going to have a journey that they're going to enjoy. And that's why they gravitate towards those people. Right? And I think that I hear people, even in my role today, people will complain and say, "Hey, I don't have enough resources. I don't have this. I don't have that." And I'm like, "Well, so-and-so who's been number one rep two years in a row, she's never said that to me. Why? Let's go dissect that." Right? And you'll find out that people are going to gravitate towards those folks. And it's really interesting to watch when you see it. Because like you said, those individuals don't report to that person. They actually have no authority over them at all. But they just grab the change from them. Hey, guys, let's not miss an opportunity to talk about how to spot that. You know, we know the Perennial, all pros of the Perennial Presidents Club. And by the way, just to re-plug it again. We got Bob Cosis, the Presidents Club mindset, a book that's been out for a while and killing it and doing really, really well. So I'm assuming Bob that we can get it everywhere. We can get it Amazon. Amazon air is right there. I got coffee. There we go. Looks fantastic. Thanks. Okay. So how do you spot it in the interview process? And how do you know that somebody has it? Or let's say you're taking over a team or just how does it, how do you spot it? Yeah. This collaboration, I think, almost every, if I go back and look at anybody we've had on this podcast, anything they've been associated with selling, there's very few things that are single threaded anymore. Just the technology, the world we're in, AI, like every single part of an organization typically is involved in decision making. Part of that's economics, part of its technology. So how do you really spot it, Bob? And how do you, let's talk about how do you spot it? How do you reward it? How do you make it the standard? Yep. So one thing I would say for sure is it's in the questions they ask you during the interview process. Obviously in every process you're going to have them ask you questions. People that I've had reps come in and managers come in and say, hey, am I going to have dedicated resources? Am I going to have this resource? Am I going to have that resource asking ahead of time, understanding, not understanding, hey, how do you approach the sales process? And will I get what I need when? That's obviously okay. But there's some signs there, right? How they build references, asking them, I usually ask people in the interview process, hey, can I call one of your customers? Because if you're building great customers, if you're building great references, I'd be the first one to tell you, hey, John, I have 10 that I'd like you to talk to. But a lot of folks, they don't have any, right? Because they haven't went through that process. So I think those are ways you can kind of pull it out a little bit, if you're a manager. And I think it is important because you want people to be great teammates. And in this environment, or in high pressure environment, or run and hard, or trying to win deals, I think those things are real critical. I love what you call out. Yeah, I'm sorry, John, you got to be careful because during the interview process, you can see a lot of people put down, I did a $5 million deal at JP Morgan Chase, wanted Ford, wanted Boeing, wanted Morgan Stanley. But then when you dig in, you find out they did not open that account. They did some deal, third deal. So you got to actually ask them from the beginning. Talk to me about the account that you broke into and how you did it, what resources you used. And you want to hear the whole story. If you just look at their resume alone, you could think that they did these big deals when in reality, they didn't really do the deal. I love that because at Dysactinat is so critical that, you said, you can absolutely, if you're just glossing over and not asking it next level question, that we'll go right by it. Yeah. Isn't your book you highlight leading without authority, which I really love. And for me, what that means is when I explain to you how I did something, I'm explaining, I call it the Wana factor. How did I get people to Wana around the organization or want to around the organization, not because they had to, not because I had the authority or the title to tell them that they had to do it that way, but I built an environment that got people to want to. And that's like, I think that is, I love how you brought it out in the book, talking about leading without authority. And I think that that's a critical skill set for perennial producers. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, total 100%. I also think for future managers too. It's one of those skills that we look for in our emerging leaders programs where we look and we say, is that going to be a skill that's going to be our next generation of leader, right? We're trying to build because they have to be folk, like you said, they have to be leaders and folks that absolutely rally everybody around them, people want to work with them, people are inspired by them and how they approach work and how they approach the business and customers as well, right? And how they interact with customers. So yeah, I think that's. You can also hear in the explanation if you're in an interview or if you take over a team or you're a new leader and you come in and you can find this trait of this leading without authority, this collaboration is when they explain, do they speak about, I did or we did or, you know, I worked with this individual. They did such a great job and I helped them take this to the next level and then they were able to do this. If they're talking about the team, that's how I can tell. And it doesn't matter whether you're interviewing somebody, you're taking over, you're going to go work for somebody and you're asking them about their environment. And in our business, there's a lot of people to talk about I. A lot of people talk about I, I, you know, I did this, I did this and there's not a lot of sales going on in enterprise sales right now that's done by I right now, my opinion. Not at all. I think you're dead on with that point. I think the, the thing I would add to that is that the great leaders I see in high tech and I get to interact with a lot of them when many different companies, they talk in a way you just said, John, they talk in terms of we, we did this, my team did that. They're giving credit, hey, the product team delivered great. Yes, so she could solve this team did this. They're not rarely say I. It's, it's, you know, but the ones that aren't as strong, you'll hear that a lot, right? And, you know, we do see that the ones that are strong or they're trying to sell you on. You know, you can tell people that are trying to sell you with the language of I, meaning you can depend on, they just get it wrong. And that's an experience. It's in maturity. Like I'm trying to sell you on the, the experience of me being able to do all of these things. And they're, they're missing the boat, but that's probably the last thing that people want to hear. How about on curiosity, guys? We kind of, we went over that quickly. You brought up, you did this 150 club interview project. Could you tell us like the main basis kind of part of the book where you didn't just say sit back on your, sit back on your place in Florida there and say, you know, out on a boat and say, what do I believe are the most important characteristics? You actually went out and interviewed 150. No, what I interviewed 10, but they had combined made 150 presence clubs. Oh, okay, sorry. That's the one that got it. Yeah. But no, it's critical because the inner person I interviewed, which you guys may know is Bob Galata. So Bob was at people. Oh, yeah. He won 23 straight clubs. I think it PTC. Oh, yeah. That number. It was a massive number. And he's the one is my second interview. He's the one it talked about for a long time. How important curiosity was in his entire success. Like he dissected it. He went through all kinds of methodologies and stuff. And he kept coming back to this idea of curiosity. And what him and I came to was this idea of agenda free listening, which is you're really listening to the client. You're deep listening to the client, but you don't have your own agenda necessarily. You're really unpacking it as they go where a lot of sellers are listening, but they want to talk about the next thing. So they're not actually unpacking where that client's taking them. And so we talked a lot about that about really being in a moment, having your head where your feet are, being in a moment with the client, make sure your agenda is listening and unpacking what their problems are, not having your own agenda at that moment. So that you've been talking about that for years. Number one skill for a salesperson. The best salespeople are the best listeners. And then you could say, well, they also ask a lot of good questions. Well, that's because they're listening. If you truly listening and to Bob's point, your feet are on the ground in the conversation, you almost don't need to think about what your next question should be. You're engaged. Of course, you're going to know what to ask next because you're so curious and you're listening so well. You know what to ask next. Too many people are not actually here. They're not actually in the moment, in the room with the customer to think about to Bob's point, their own agenda, what they're going to say next, what if I don't get this meeting to, you know, the outcome to be X or Y, they're just not really here. And if you're not here, you can't listen. If you're not listening, you can't question effectively. So I think it's none one skill for all salespeople. But going back to one of the things before we change on curiosity, if you're going to switch up, can I keep talking about it? So for me, I've been thinking about this a lot over the last five years, probably since we've been doing this podcast and we're talking about curiosity. And there's a Y with, you know, it's a skill, but there is a reason why people have the capacity to be intellectually curious. So there's also a reason why that they might not be exhibiting those things. And one of its preparation. I think listening is a great skill. I don't think we can ever, you know, under or overplay that, you know, in the amount of time that we talk about it. But when I dig into it, like why, what stops people from being intellectually curious? It is a comfort level that you are prepared. And so a company, I can tell sometimes I go into some organizations, I can tell that, you know, it's not just the DNA thing of a person. Sometimes it can be a DNA of an organization because they're having to make stuff up on the fly or they are not trained to speak to a persona or they are not trained with their differentiation or they're, give me your thoughts on that guys because it's not always just the individual skill set of whether they're good listener. There's reasons why people are good listeners. John, you want to hit it first? You can go about it. Yeah. I think preparedness is absolutely critical in how you're approaching it because if you're in a situation where you don't have enough knowledge, right, you're going to be timid and you're not going to feel confident in what you're doing. But I think if you look at, you know, the best, the best sellers, right, they prepare better than anybody else. You know, I sometimes get you an algae of, of Tiger Woods and a few use AI and you say, what made Tiger Woods elite? They would say it's one of the things that comes up is unmatched preparation, right? This preparation was just unmatched, right? So I only say that because that's an example of somebody else. It's obviously was a lead in their craft, right, that can pull that off. But I see that with the best sellers all the time. They're the work they put in. You know, we, I don't mean a digress on this, but the point I want to make is if you're preparing for a football game or basketball, you're practicing. But how many times before a meeting, right, when you're traveling with your manager or you're getting with your team are people on our phone, they're not prepping for the meeting, they're not doing the things they should be doing. They should all be putting away their devices and really focused in on how we prepping for this call, how we prepping for this meeting. And it's, it's a bit, I'm not going to say it's a lost art, but something I've been talking to a lot of people about because I think managers are missing that in today's world. They're not spending the time in the prep that they probably should have, should be. Yeah, lots of calm in yourself. Like, if you're sitting in a lobby somewhere and you are, you are, you know, firing up your amygdala with all these different signals on emails or what have you. You're going to get, I know you talk about somatic responses in your book, which I, which I really like, I wasn't expecting that, but I loved it because I think that's a big part of, you know, the most prepared people are the ones that I always, I always saw this. I, when I was playing athletics back in the day, there were people that just looked calmer in the difficult situations. And those were the most prepared people, like the game slowed down for them. This is the people that were like, like me when I was a freshman, I remember I'm jumping, and I'm so, I could hardly breathe. I needed the first hit before I even got my wits about me in a game. And I had to learn when I looked at people that went on plane in the NFL, those were the people that were the, they were like the calmest before. So they actually knew how to calm themselves. They weren't letting people chatter. They weren't screwing around on a bus or a plane or what have you. They were getting focused and getting into the, getting into the mindset of what, you talk about in this book. Yeah, I think, you know, when you're prepared. So you know what persona you're calling on. You've investigated how they're measured, who they report to, everything about them. You know the use case. You know what the pains in the use case are. And now basically you're like a great lawyer. No great lawyer is putting any one of us on a stand before they've done so much homework that they are only asking the questions that they already know the answers to. Why would a great lawyer get up there and start asking questions that they don't know the answer to. So that's like a great salesperson. They do so much homework that they know what the right answer should be. So when a customer gives them an answer that's off, now they start digging. Now they start asking questions. Why? How come I don't understand? Is that so different than the other use cases that I've sold into. You know, so they know they can tell. And when you're unprepared, you can't tell. You can't tell. So the conversation goes sideways. Customers could take you in a different direction. Could be talking to an enemy. Can't figure those things out if you're not really prepared. You started the call off to Bob with, and I don't know if that was in the pregame we were talking or when you did it here, yeah, you talked about it with that persistent and resilient rep. There are tools now that just weren't available back in the day when I was selling. And if I was going to look at gain film of how I performed in a sports environment to learn, if you had gone and all these other tools, these things that we're talking about, we can self-assess. We don't need a lot of people to tell us like, are we curious? We can self-assess. Are we prepared? Are we calm? Do we understand differentiation? Do we understand when something changed in the environment of somebody started looking down and said, they started looking at their phone, they started looking at their computer screen or whatever? We now have technology that can self-assess. It's funny. I talked to a lot of people and they know that people are listening to their calls, but they're not the ones listening to their own calls. It's very true. It's not enough people are doing it. I don't understand it. I mean, game film, could you imagine being an NFL team and not watching game film? Well, how about being on the team and knowing your coach is going to watch it for hours and you're not going to watch it? Right. I don't know if that for me would be that for me would be insanity to go into and watch my game without having reviewed the film myself and then wait for the coach to tell me what I did right or did wrong. I mean, what about the team? The lead ones are always doing it. Listen to a lot of transcripts. What about your team, H? You listen to a lot of transcripts and the rep introduces the people on the phone. They never say another word says goodbye and tries to schedule the next meeting, but they don't participate at all throughout the call. They just let the technical people run the call. It's awful. Yeah. It happens more. It happens a lot too, John. It's one of the things where I think that sales leadership that's listening here, you need to make sure that the reps are taking the active leadership role in the meeting and run in the meeting. And obviously the technical team plays an incredibly important job in everything. But yeah, that's something I think is a mis today. I see it more and more. So what's a common mistake that when you interview these people that they admitted that even with their experience, they sometimes still make the same mistake or make a mistake. Were there any common themes there? Yeah. I think the one, I'm going to go back to what we already talked about a little bit because it was a theme is that a lot of them did say, hey, the one thing is you can never prepare enough. So like we talked about preparedness. So that one did come out from a theme of these are things that we could do better. And the other one that kind of comes out is they don't force the preparation. They didn't enforce the preparation as much as they should. So what that means is really just rehearsing with the team ahead of the calls. You know, a lot of times in these larger deals, especially, you're going to have three, four, five people in a meeting and just making sure you're prepared correctly and the team really understands going in is critical. So those are a few that came out. You know, with Johnny going back to one of your points, the top guys that I've known were top people that I've known that were always doing the big deals that were always over quota. It almost seemed like they were moving and they were they were moving at a different pace than the rest of the group. The rest of the group is running more emails, more calls, more demos, more everything. And these other big game hunters, they move at a different pace. There are, you know, everybody else needed to call on 10 accounts to get one. They needed to call on one account to get one. And they're self aware. So for me, that old, I'm piggybacking on what you're saying, Johnny, they're not waiting for people to tell them what their rhythm is because they've established a rhythm. And they're self aware, like I know what my conversion rate is. I know, you know, I know what my competition is doing. I know what a champion is. I know how to get an economic buyer involved. So people are very self aware. So there's some people, they say the old adage was like unconsciously competent. It was a very dangerous. And sometimes I would find very talented people, multiple year presidents, clubs winners that made horrible sales leaders. They were incredible in the field, but yet they were horrible at teaching others. And it was, they weren't self aware. They did not understand what made them successful. That's almost as dangerous as being consciously incompetent. And so I find that like that's one of the big differences between great sellers and great leaders, the ones that flip the switch on that. They're so self aware that they can teach it. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does, John. McMahon, back to the point you just made, which I think is also incredibly good when people, if they're having a hit rate where they're going to 10 accounts or not getting any of them. But then you got to, like you said, the elite seller could be hitting everyone. They're getting in the door. And a lot of it has, and what we found when we were doing this research was a lot of it has to do with the fact that they deeply understand how they're going to affect the customer. But they're so passionate about it. They just believe it's so deeply. They're like, no, you have to, you have to spend time with me. You know our stand, we're doing this for this company and this company and this company. They so deeply are passionate about it. It's almost like you have to go take the meeting. You know, but it's authentic. It's so authentic. You can't make it up. You can't create passion and get people to believe it. It has to be really authentic. They really believe it because they've seen the way it mounts. They've seen it. Well, I call that, yeah, I call that knowing what you do matters. Like you could ask any of those perennial winners if they believe, do you believe what you do matters? And there's not a 23 year Presidents Club winner that can tell you that because they won't have energy for it. There's a direct correlation to what I have energy for to what I believe matters. And there's no way you could do that job for 23 straight years if you didn't believe it mattered. Very few people could do that and perform. Nobody could do it for that and not perform. So Bob, did you find like we were always talking about, you know, really good reps know how to find champions and really bad reps. Always talking to coaches and rarely, you know, get get great champions. So did you discover in your conversations, was there a certain tactic or strategy or conversation or things that the great sales reps had to do in order to turn, you know, the scale. Yeah, that's the challenge. It came out really, it came out a lot through all the interviews and plus, you know, other folks I talked about about the book as well. You know, I think a couple things. One is they really understood how to connect the solution to solving the pain, to solving the personal win. So they were able to connect those three very deeply and they were under, they really understood for the person they wanted to create into a champion or build the champion. What that personal win was going to be in painted division. I always, I talk about this so many reps here focused on the clothes. I'm not suggesting it is called the clothes is not important. It is. But I always like to tell the reps focus past the clothes to the as is scenario of where the customer is going to be successful and get the customer and visioning themselves in that scenario, not closing the deal with you, but envision them in success with you. And the clothes is just a step in the process. Of course, you want to get on your timeline, but it's a step in the process. And the great reps, they were all saying, that they were all like, no, we would invite, we would explain to them how, you know, somebody would say, oh, this feature is missing or this is missing or that is missing, they would dismiss that and be like, no, look, this is what we delivered for this customer. Let's explain how you're going to, we're going to get you there, right? And yeah, there'll be some blips along the way, but we're going to get you to this scenario, which is going to make you successful. It is going to have a great outcome for you. And therefore, that person started to become their champion because they really believed in it versus just believing on the point of closure. And then you're going to leave them, which a lot of, a lot of reps do unfortunately. And they've done a great job also in getting those champions, getting them to the aziz picture. But then the people that they have closed that have seen the results, they have done a great job in continuing to build the relationships with those people and use them as really powerful references where those people are passionate also. Absolutely. It was one of the, you know, still one of the biggest things is creating your own references when I interview people. I'm always asking how many references you create on your own? Like, you know, and can I talk to your customers because the best reps, I think I believe the best ones, they don't need marketing to create references. Not that that's not important. I think there's a place for that and having all the, having those success stories is definitely a place. But I think that the great ones just know how to do it at a different level. And when they create those, it just becomes a snowball fact because people want to do business with them, right? And what about you and talking to the CFO, the great reps because they're doing big deals are finding their way all the way to the C level and a lot of these accounts and the deals are so big you are getting a lot of times get, need to present the cost justification and have a CFO ready business case prepared. Did you find any, did you get any findings with we didn't talk a lot about you need. Yeah, we talked a lot about the unique value prop and how the importance of presenting it and making sure it connects correctly. And we talked a lot of a little bit about enemies, right? But I think the thing that I would say came out of that the most is people get a little scared to approach somebody they think is an enemy. And I think that's a mistake, right? What I talk about and I think as chapter six or I think as chapter six is you want to find your enemies in these big complex accounts and you may not win them. It's okay that you have to neutralize them. You have to at least get them to even, right? Yeah. Because if you don't, they are going to be a vocal enemy. But if you at least get them neutral, they're not going to fight. You know, and that's that kind of thing. But you kind of figure out their strategy because if you talk to them or not, you kind of figure out their strategy, right? I used to, when I was selling, I had this, I called on General Dynamics and it took me a really long time to sell this big deal. And as there's this, at that time, there was this data services division. So basically it was the IT division of them. And they basically assigned a guy that was the enemy to find out everywhere I went, every building I went into, every meeting I went into and every time I came out, he was right there. And then we'd start laughing at each other's faces and telling jokes and stuff like that. But he knew I was his enemy and he knew and vice versa. But after you talk to him along and out, you kind of figure out what his strategy is, right? Absolutely. Well, one of the things I see on that subject, the, I think the immaturity that people, you'll see it in the, for sure, in the Perennial Presidents Club winners. But a lot of people think it's the person that is going to be wailing and gnashing of teeth at them that is going to be like rude to them. It's going to be, and I found some of the, some of the most impressive enemies I've ever witnessed in an account are basically, for me, it's the, the definition of a champion. Power and influence actively selling on your behalf and a vested interest in your success. So for me, the definition of an enemy, they are somebody else's champion. And it's not this wailing and gnashing a teeth. But if they have power and influence, they're actively selling on somebody else's behalf. And there's a vested interest for that other organization's success. I just think that's a very mature way. It's the flip side of it. A lot of times people are saying, well, there's no enemy. Nobody's given me a hard time. Or some of the shrewdest enemies are the ones that are, are, you know, they're, they're not showing any cards because it has something to do with the solution for the other individual. Yeah. Yeah, they can be very, very shrewd and make you believe that they're going to be your champion. What at the end of the day they're stepping in the back. There's not the case. Yeah. But guys, just think about it. Even in real life. We're guys where it's so bureaucratic. These guys learn to smile in each other's faces. They're basically politicians. You know, and they learn how to smile in each other's faces and stab each other in the back. That's what they basically do for a living. So then here comes some poor little sales rep that things are going to take over that guys, whatever that guy's in control of or get recognized for. And they know how to play that game better than that sales rep. And the sales rep falls right in the trap. Yeah. I think like, you know, sometimes it's even not as sinister as like somebody, you know, somebody being in that mode that's like, you know, I'm going to stab you in the back, whatever I can think of times when I have been. I don't think of myself as somebody's enemy, but I am their enemy because I have power and influence in something. I have, I am actively selling on somebody else's behalf. And I have a vested interest in somebody else's success. It's just like that my mindset is over there. I it's not about you. It's about this. One other thing, you're taking their personal win away from them. You know, if they have control over something or they get recognized for something or approval for something, you're threatening that. Yeah. That recognition that that personal win, you're threatening their win and they're going to come after you. I love it. One last thing on this is like Johnny saying, if you start seeing somebody who's threatened, it means you're doing your job because the enemy is surfacing because your solution, your reputation, your relationships are a threat to that person. So when you don't see any enemy, that's actually a red flag because you're not bothering anybody. I think to your guys earlier point, which I think is critical, go go meet with your enemies, go spend time with them, go figure it out. It's going to it's not easy to do, right? It's not easy to do. You have to go figure that piece out. You can't run from it. It's going to come back and bite you. So, well, you call in your book, you call the brutal honesty framework. What do you mean by that? Well, what I was saying is that I was talking about really kind of the power base and kind of mapping that out and excruciating detail and making sure because a lot of people will gloss over the power base. But like, it depends on where you're doing business. I mean, I know a lot of enterprise sellers have followed this podcast. So you could be doing business in Korea or China or Japan or Europe somewhere. The power bases are very complicated and very deep and they might have, they might be generational, right? So unpacking that, understanding it, really going deep in it and really figuring out who those enemies are and how you're going to neutralize them. And like you guys said, the different parts of where they're at and their journey because they're fighting for their own survival, their own promotions, their own journey. So you got to kind of figure that stuff out too. You can't gloss over it, right? Because you're going to get, you know, you're either going to get your deal stalled or you're going to lose it or one of these things are going to happen. So yeah, that's really where I went with that piece, John. Well, I like when you said that you talked about the brutal honesty framework. It really, most reps are afraid to kill deals. Yes. But they don't want the bad news. So tell us a little bit about how you, I mean, we talk about the why anything, why us, why now, but tell me how you kind of turn that into the brutal honesty framework. Yeah, I think, I think it's a, it's really challenging, challenging the seller to really say, you know, is the customer, you know, I got this from a joint person we all know. But back when I was a, a rap dick Harrison was a bit of an influence on me. So he kind of, he said to me, he said, Hey, does a customer know they're actually buying something, right? Do they know they're buying, right? Or do you just telling me they're buying? And, you know, that's that I remember him saying that sit in his office at PTC headquarters. And, you know, it always stuck with me because this why buy anything, I always challenge people and say, why are they buying anything at all? Because you really have to understand that piece and you have to be honest with yourself and you have to ask those questions. And sometimes just asking the customer, Mr. customer, why are you buying anything at all? Why are you making a decision? And having them answer that? That in itself is incredibly powerful. And sometimes we gloss over it. I've been in recent sales calls where I've walked in and meet executives and I've asked him that question. And you can, I can tell if the rap is cringing, you know, or upset because they know they haven't asked it. And they're wondering, you know, what the customer's going to say because they don't know the answer. Right. Right. So, is there a memorable story or memorable event that happened while you were writing the book from or from one of the people or one of the interviews that sticks out in your mind? You know, it does. We were, you know, we, I was at a company, I was at an ANSIS running, you know, global sales at ANSIS in 2014, 15, 16 timeframe. And Wal-Hern was somebody who worked for me. He's, he's one of the, one of the best ones out there, Walter, awesome leader and ended up being to head to sales and answers for the last few years before they got acquired. And, but I tell you the story because we sold a huge deal in the, in the Pittsburgh area. And it was a deal where the competitor had it. And it was, it was, the competitor had to count locked up. And what we did was we found a way, this goes back to proactive selling, which I also talk about John, it's in there. But we, we were able to actually win the deal. Prior, when the deal booked a deal, closed a deal prior to the customer ever canceling the contract with the other vendor. In the way we got creative. So we were able to do it in such a way that the, the, the, the incumbent actually never knew they were being ousted. And I look at the customer giving out two purchase orders though. No, no, they were, the renewal was coming up. The renewal was coming up for the other vendor. And we were able to get in nine months in advance. And the only interaction they had with the other vendor was, hey, we're raising your price, we're raising your price. And we went on a pure value play for that period of time. And we knew that 90 days prior, they had 90 day notification period. So we knew we had to get everything wrapped up. We got it wrapped up with about 92 days. And we're, Walt and I were talking about that story. But that's, that's just one example of some, some cool things that did come out of it. And, and, you know, some of these, uh, the fight was over before they got in the rain. Isn't that beautiful? But as I do, I'm telling because you can do it. You can absolutely be so proactive with a client around what they're doing. You don't need to involve the incumbent, you know, especially if you're selling replacement technology. I understand that some folks listening to some replacement technology, some folks are, are probably maybe selling more enterprise deals where they're going after bed and, and they're making a company-wide decision. So it's a bit different. At Appian, we do both, right? So, um, but yeah, I think in replacement technology, you can absolutely do that. If you're really proactive, a customer says, Hey, I can't do anything till the renewal comes up. Create a reverse timeline, get well in advance of that. And you can have that thing replaced before it ever, before they ever know would hit them, right? So, yeah, the only way you can keep a competitor out of the ring with you is when you are focusing on business outcomes, on what technical features will do to create business outcomes. But the minute you have technical features against technical features, you will always have somebody else boxing you in the ring. Absolutely. But what I find is that the, the, the, people with the President's Club mindset is the name of Bob's book, the President's Club mindset. People that have that mindset know that the way that they can avoid getting in the ring sometimes is when they connect it to business outcomes. If it's slowly at technical features, which is a must, you have to have technical features. But if you have not connected in the business outcomes, you'll never benefit from that story in Pittsburgh like you told you'll never not get in the ring and have a deal done before they know never. And John, the way we want that deal, we, I didn't call up business outcomes in a book. I called it building the unique value prop, but it's the same exact thing, right? It was, we built such a tight unique value proposition with the customer that they owned. We helped them build it, but they owned it. But we had those critical capabilities that the competitor could not do, that connected back to the, to make sure the outcomes were going to connect us. And by doing that, by taking the time and spending the time to go do that, it makes sure it makes your deals, you know, iron clap, right? Like you said, you focused on the outcomes and that's, that's going to make the world a difference. But I was at two companies where anytime we were going to win the deal, you know, because we started getting so much momentum in the marketplace that the competitor would give it away for free. Right? So we had to basically train the sales guys. White flag. How to sell against free. And the only way you could sell against free is what you guys were just saying is if you can't attach it to a business outcome with quantifiable value that the customer can take back to inside his company when somebody up above them, because usually they call way high when they give it away for free. And he has to tell the person that's two levels higher or one level higher. Here's why I'm still going to buy this product because this is the value that they bring to me. And even if you, I got that for free, it's still going to cost us in some way, shape, or form. Yeah, that, that is, that came out in such a big way. And as I interviewed more of the, you know, folks in this book, it was that unique value proposition, that ability to connect the value to the outcome. And but really, you know, you have to go deep. You have to, you have to be willing to put the work in. It's not superficial. It's not some ROI calculator that nobody owns that's just sitting out there in an ether. It has to be owned, you know, by the, by you and the company that's buying from you and you're champion, right? You guys have to own it jointly, right? Because I see a lot of folks out there, they want to go, I'm building the new ROI calculator. The customer can do this on themselves. And that's all good. We need those tools, but you got to use them with the customer in the right context and make sure that the customers is bought in as you are, right? With them. And you got to do it early in the sales process. Because if you get to a certain part of the sales process, what happens is the customer sees enough of your product. They start to figure out their own justification for it. And now if you're too deep in the sales process and you're starting to ask these quantifying questions about how much it costs them and revenue they can generate and those types of quantifiable value questions, all of a sudden they're like, whoa, hold on a second, you know, I don't really need to answer all those questions, right? You got to get it all up front. Yeah, good. Sorry. In this, in this book, I'm holding up the presence club mindset about Cosis inside the winning strategies of text, most successful salespeople. It's a freaking great read. I love it. I want you to handle this question from I love the your book tells me there you go, Johnny. Your book tells me how to get there. What insights do you have on how to stay there? What insights can you give us on how to stay there? What were some of the things that you heard from those perennials? How do you stay there? Yeah, it comes down to consistency and being kind of unwavering, right? You're you need to be consistent. You need to be okay with the daily grind. You need to know that these things don't come easy just because you made it a few years. You can't sit back and say, Hey, it's going to be automatic for me. You know, the the great ones they, they just are unwavering their approach. They don't take shortcuts. I think John McMahon said this early in the call, they do not take shortcuts. They absolutely are their preparation, their mindset, their focus. They want to win. They know how to win. They're not going to take shortcuts. They're not going to let people derail them internally. And you know, that's the the folks that I think stay there are the ones that just have that, you know, grit and toughness and determination to go make it happen over and over again. And I see it. Just an earlier they got the curiosity too, Bob. So they they're always kind of looking at themselves and usually I find that those people push themselves more than you could ever push them, right? So they're curious and they keep trying to learn keep trying to stay one step ahead of everyone else. Yeah, I know one of the you interviewed one of my favorite people on the planet, which is Paul the Moore, actually hired him at PTC back in the day. And he works for me now for his management. So I've been working with Paul probably for 30 years in different capacities. And this is something I'm going to he I give him a lot of crap all the time, but I'm going to pay him a huge compliment here. Paul is one of the most adaptable mindsets I've ever seen. And you know, how to stay there is your adaptable like AI comes out. What are you doing? Well Paul was the first one with our AI principles, gong calls, whatever we were doing new in the company. He didn't do things because somebody told him he had to do it. He was intellectually curious about what it could do for him. And I always found that as somebody all he drives me nuts on a lot of things. But when I got to go and I got to find out how things are working and how we're doing with how we do our process. I should have you what a cop plan looks like. John and we talk about when you get a cop plan, Paul's a kind of guy that you give the cop plan to early and he's the one that's going to break it down because he's constantly adapting. He knows that what I did last year is not going to be good enough for me this year. And that is a mindset, I think, is is really, really powerful. You cannot stand still. None of those people you interviewed figured they could just phone it any year. I did it last year. I can do it again this year. And they had a they had a little bit of adja about the next year. They were always thinking about better. Yeah, yeah, they're always nervous. They're always worried. I got to stay on top. Yeah, I like that that little bit of edge. The other thing just to piggyback on what you're saying that came through a lot of clear is top performers always tend to leverage internal processes and technology better than everybody else. Yeah. And there's folks internally that aren't doing well that will complain and say, I don't have time to do that or don't have time to use that technology or don't have time to do this. And those folks typically don't do well. It's that the top performers they they're they're adopting technology that give you valuable feedback. They're set in this. They're setting the example in the tone for how things are happening kind of like you explain with Paul. So Before we go, I want to just, I want to, in Johnny, you might have another question too. Sorry about that. I didn't mean to close it like that. But I want to know, when I read this book, I'm like, okay, I love this. I love the people that are in here. I love the thinking about those environments. What I want to know from you, Bob, what have you learned about how to manage these people? The Perennial All Stars, 23 presidents clubs, five presidents clubs, performing every year. What are some of the things that you learned that you could give our audience a heads up? How is it best to manage these presidents club mindset people? Yeah, no. I think some people get this wrong. Yeah, and some people were scared of it, right? I see that'll do. They're very nervous. They're very, they're very worried about being threatened. But I think for me, I'll just tell you a quick story. What happened to me was, is in my career, I was doing well, but wasn't doing that great. And then one day it kind of hit me a little bit. I got a really lousy commission check. It kind of hit me a little bit and said, I am totally focused on the wrong thing. I'm focused on myself. I'm worried about when is Bob getting promoted? When am I moving up? When am I going to make more money? Why is this happening? And I shifted my entire mindset at that point in time. I said, you know what? I'm going to focus on my team. I'm going to focus on my people. How can I get them promoted? How can I invest in them? How can I make sure they're winning deals? I'm giving them all the credit. When I started doing that, I never had to ask for another promotion in my entire career or pay raise or anything. It just came because I was focused on the right things. My team was getting promoted outside of my team, but I was hiring great people in because I was hiring right profiles. So I think it's really about having a service mentality. You got a service, you got to serve your team. You got to serve them. And ways to help them knock down barriers, win deals, do the small things. Sometimes you got to do the grunt work form to prove that you're a leader. You know, you got to make sure you clear a path for them so they can be successful. You got to fight for them when necessary, right? But at the end of the day, you got to go lead them on the right path to go make the number for the company. So I think that would be my advice is just make sure you have that service mentality that you're looking at your team first and not saying you don't perform its management, not saying you don't put some heat on them. You got to do all those things too. But when they respect you as a leader, those things come so much easier. You know, you can do those things when they respect you as a leader. Johnny, thoughts? Yeah, what I found, and a lot of this is some of it, it's what Bob's already said, but it may be in a little different light. One is, I found that those people only call you when they really need you. But you have to make it clear to them up front like I am here for you. I'm kind of going to leave you alone because I trust you, but I want you to know when you call, I'll be here for you. So, and then I found that they call rarely, but when they do, they really need you. You got to step up big. That's number one. Number two, you can't hold those people accountable in the same way that you hold the other 90% of the self force accountable. Here's what I mean. If I'm basically holding everybody else accountable to a number of net new business meetings every month or every quarter or a number of POVs every quarter, I'll go to the special people and tell them, look, you've heard me in front of everybody say that this is how many net new business meetings you have to do, how many POVs you have to do. I'm not going to hold you accountable to that because you're making your number all the time. But if I ever hear you say that you're special and that John doesn't need you to do those things, we're going to part ways because I have a team here to run and I have to run in a certain way. And guess what? Every time you have that conversation with those top people, they go to, and this goes back to both your points on self-awareness. They're like, I got you. I understand exactly what you're doing. So thanks a lot for that. Now they feel like an extra attachment to you also because of that. So you're treating them special, but in front of the group, you're not treating them special. I think the other thing you did, John, which I really respected and watched when you do this five times as CRO, and Bob, I know you've done the same things and your capacity as multiple CRO, is that it's not leaving somebody alone because nobody likes to be alone. It's not human nature to be alone. If you're bugging the crap out of them, I want to be alone. Don't bug me. But I think that the greatest leaders I've ever seen that have led great teams, perennial winners over and over again, the first thing is they understand everybody's why. Everybody has a why. If you're going to go out and do a grind and you're going to do it for 23 straight years, like Galata, and you're going to keep, he's got a why. He has an absolute why in his mind that gets him to throw those legs over the side of the bed. And then the second thing I've seen great leaders do is they find ways to get people involved in the team. They find ways to, you know, it's not like, hey, I want you to mentor. They don't do it as burdens, but they're like, whatever the why is and whatever, if they can help teach others, you know, how they look at things. And sometimes you can tap into people where they feel like they've got a purpose. Of, I mean, both of you probably wrote a book. I Johnny, I know I've had this conversation with you. It was a legacy. You wanted to leave something for others that you've benefited from. And these perennial all stars have the same type of mentality and mindset. But if they're told that they have to do it the same way everybody else does it like the biggest mistake you can make is to try to break somebody like, and I don't know why you would do it. I see people do it. Idiot. And they're never good leaders. They try to break. They try to break the 23 year person like, I'm going to show everybody that I can control that person. Good luck. It's like the coach wants to go and tell Tom Brady how to throw, right? It's like, don't change, don't change the motion. Let the guy, let the guy throw you like, let's find a way to make them successful and make them win, right? And you know, the interesting thing about that example that you just said, they're sorry, Johnny, you know, think about who we're talking about. Tom Brady sitting in an office with the frickin grumpy as old man I've ever seen in football, Bill Bella check. He's not letting anybody do favorites, but he's, they figured out a way to work that thing out. He did. And, right? And so I think that I would just encourage people to think about, it's okay. Bill Bella check could never dream of throwing the ball like Tom Brady. I could never dream of some of the people that I, that I led. I couldn't dream of selling his way or negotiating as well as they could. And I was okay with that. It wasn't my role to be the best seller or the best. I'll just, John, just one more, one more quick thing. Yeah. The whole thing is if you're leading the team and you have Tom Brady, don't put him tight end, let the guy play quarterback, let him play quarterback, baby, let him go. Because a lot of managers, like you said, you want to force him into a box, put him somewhere they shouldn't be, let him go win the games for you, right? So sorry, John, I got you off. I absolutely heard John say that for any time. Yeah, what you guys were saying before is what I found with these guys is they, they do teach the rest of the group and you put them up in front of everyone because why? Because they find use cases that a lot of the other reps don't find why? Right. Because all the attributes you talked about before, John or Bob, the curious, the con high, all of that stuff because of that, they come up with unique ways to sell the product that the rest of the sales force isn't going to figure out. So then you put them up in front of everybody, educate them and all of a sudden the rest of the sales force is going after the same thing. So in a funny way, you manage them the right way and they'll help you manage the group the right way. Love that. Bobby, what have it we talked about that you would have expected to talk about on this podcast about this book? Let me just give it one last plug. The presence club minds that Bob Cosis inside the winning strategies of text most successful sales people. Anything we didn't cover? No, I just appreciate your guys time. I think it was fantastic dialogue and I hope the readers enjoy the book and the viewers enjoy the book and thank you guys. Really appreciate your time today. Thanks, buddy. You killed it. Bob, thanks a lot. Johnny Cap, thanks a lot. Please tell everyone for listening to another episode of the Revenue Builders Podcast. (upbeat music)