The Prem returns: Away wins, tries & the Welsh invasion

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It's an international rugby to talk about as well, your moment of the weekend. First thing that comes to mind, without thinking too hard, is the Santi Carreras try. I am, I'm convinced he didn't mean to do it. He didn't mean to do it. It was a fluke, fluke. Yeah, a nice fluke. It's a good fluke, and I don't know. If you stick your ball out, if you stick your foot out, definitely don't do that. If you stick your foot out, hoping to make contact with a ball, it's the last resort. I was last resort, and that's the most crazy thing about it. He's got himself in such a bad defensive position. Only something as genius as that is going to bail him out, and it did. But what moment? That was a great moment. Mine's away wins. Four of them in the prime. Speaking of yours, here as well. Yours? Yeah, I think that was Sarri's win at Wellford Road. I was at Wellford Road. I think we all know Wellford Road, weren't we? Yeah, that was really, really cool. And the end of the Red Roses game was incredible. Not to mention, I'll see winning against the Africa with 11. There's loads to get into. Prem up and running. Wall of B's beating the box. Zoe Harrison's Heroics. This is Robin New Weekly with Chris Ashton. You can win, yeah, Chris James. rugby union weekly from BBC Sports and BBC Radio 5 Live. If we start on the Friday night game, we want to start on the Friday night game. Yeah. It's probably not going to make sense, yeah. OK, it's probably not speaking about the Wellford Road game. I told you when you said just we started that game with that game. Oh, sorry, yeah, I'm not a bit dry. No, that's not where you start wherever you want to start. Two games on a Friday. Yeah, that was a bit different. Am I right? I think is it not normally? I don't know. I thought the fix would be different. I thought in my mind, it would be Northampton V. I don't understand this respectfully. But someone better than Newcastle. Facts on a Friday night, yeah, 100%. The champion put this way, I was at Exeter and I was excited to see the finalists and there was a huge role of excitement/curiosity towards Gloucester because I didn't quite know what to expect. I'm pretty certain that 95% of people turned up to the guard and knowing that Northampton we're going to win. You want jeopardy and I didn't feel like there was going to be. That's the best team I first from last season against the worst team, yeah. So where we're looking for jeopardy. Mind you, loads of jeopardy Sunday and Saturday, I remember the literally two teams that flown for me, the flown most under the radar in pre-season because you're talking about Northampton and Bath the lot and you're talking about the chasing pack, Leicester, Saris, maybe sail with all their signings, talking about whether North, whether Harlequins can improve or the Newcastle can improve. The two teams that for me have probably flown another way radar have been Gloucester and Bristol and they both pulled off really good away wins on Saturday. So if I talk in jeopardy, I don't think many people called both of those. No, I did it and there were the two teams genuinely. I got to do my predictions on Thursday and there were the two teams that I really wrestled with and the only reason I didn't bet against them is because round one, back to home team. And I just didn't, I wasn't quite sure for all the way, wins. Yeah, I'm a ridiculous amount of tries. The most amount of tries. Ever, ever, not just in a 10 team league, in a 12 team league. Okay, so this has been an ongoing theme for the last couple of seasons, hasn't it about the number of tries? And the one thing you don't want, well, meh, I speak personally, I'm not speaking for anyone else, one thing I don't want is tries being scored too easily. But I didn't get that being a well-fed road. Really? I didn't think tries were scored too easily. I thought there was a level of intensity, a level of like ferocity in the collision. And I thought people had to work hard for their field position and I thought you had to execute your tries, showed decent amount of skill to score your tries. I didn't get the sense that was a basketball type game, you scored, you scored, you scored, I didn't, I think you might have rewatched that. Well, that was the feeling I had commentating on the game. It didn't, neither me or Grace were saying, this feels too easy to score tries. And that has happened plenty in the Prem recently, I just didn't get that on Sunday. You guys may have felt differently. I thought it was exactly, you scored, you scored. Right, a lot of games, it's just, but this is what we wanted, isn't it, really? This is why we've changed the laws to suit this type of game. You can't really compete at a breakdown, unless you're completely holding your own bodyweight, and you're only on the ball. There's no, you can't chase a kick and block, there's a one-on-one competition that's going to cause chaos all the time. Scrums are fast, kicks are fast. This is the game that we wanted, I don't. When you say we wanted, I don't think anyone wanted the games to be. Yeah, we used to sit here and go. Well, it was 12, 6. I mean, as ever, it's a utopia to get that perfect balance between attack and defence. But that is the beauty of rugby union, the. The breakdown. The new ones around the sport, and the fact that, you know, the defence and attack can cancel each other out, and you can have a great game that's low scoring, if it's done with high intensity and accuracy. I'd like to know the turnover numbers. Wouldn't be massive at the weekend. In comparison to all the years, I mean. Yeah, yeah. And as I agree with you, I think for years, and there has been criticism to law amendments and laws been tweaked, and I think they've been drip-fed in, especially during this kind of well-cup cycle to get to a point now, where we have a game that I think very much appeals to your average fan. The reality is, attack is easier to sell than defence. Whilst retaining all of the brutality and the physicality, that is one of the founding pillars of our sport. So the game that we've currently got, and we're seeing more tries and more tries, that's the thing that gets celebrated more so than anything. So I'm happy with where the games are. It does mean that the law amendments are working to shape it. And two of the biggest things that we've seen recently is the aerial contest. That is massively cleaned up. What was, I'd take, consider it a boring part of the game, because it wasn't a contest, because if you went up for the ball, you could be protected what a waste of time, so that wasn't a contest. The second thing which we're now seeing a lot more of is the ball, and how that has been shaped and changed. And it's now becoming such a weapon, whether it's scoring through the ball, or using the ball to be able to preserve space for backs of it to play off. And those two things are only going to increase the amount of tries that we see. And that means no one takes kicks a goal. Because there are a couple of times, Saris was seven no lap, and maybe I'm still conditioned to think, or seven, turn that into ten. And there was another time, and I think there were two points down, and they got a kick, and they were 14 men, and they got a kick for the draw. But they made the right calls. They kicked for the corner and scored. Because if you keep the ball in opposition territory, you will get your rewards. In four out of the five matches we saw this weekend, not a single penalty was taken at goal. Are you joking? There was only four penalties taken at goal this weekend, and they all came from the sale Bristol match. OK, how we get. But this is. That's. Like, honestly, just sit on that. That is. And my. We're taken this weekend. That's mind-blowing. But that, for me, is not rugby globally. We saw rugby's greatest rivalry series. Goat kicks a goal, we're key. Can't compare it to national rugby. No, I mean, I was watching you. I was watching you watching you will see on Friday night, and almost at exactly the same time as, I think, Northampton made a line break, and Newcastle got done for not supporting bodyweight. I mean, I like it when you don't immediately ping a side who's made the line break, so I'm going to contradict myself. But in other leagues, that's a holding on pen. And as I was watching the URC, there are holding on pens being given. We have none. But that's because every what, all the refs in the prem are so aligned. Whereas in the URC, for example, refs are coming from loads of different countries where they'll all interpret the breakdown slightly differently. I think when you get to international rugby, the way the prem is ref, and it makes for a great spectacle and real consistency. And I think you can seldom complain about the officiating the Prem because you know what you're getting. But then you get to top level international rugby and the concern is that an England team would get killed at the breakdown. Are we getting to the point where you don't need a fetching number seven? We need a fetching seven in international rugby. You do, but you don't need to the Prem. Can I get hit the ball? How'd you do with Malcolm Arches in international rugby if you can't go to it for that at the breakdown? You just get destroyed. And it's really instructive. I mean, I listened to you guys podcast from the stats and the data you got back from the Director of Rugby when they got asked their questions. They thought the best signing in the Prem was Jack Morgan. So I think there's such a good place for a seven, but they've got to be. He didn't get a turn, or are we going? He didn't get a turn. He was there a lot. He was there a lot, but slowing rock ball down, I think, is almost just. That's the turn over, isn't it? That is the turn over now. Because you know that if a decent attacking team gets three quick phases in a row, they're cooking. They cook it. It's hard to recover. So having a top number seven is. So it's mad. Only four penalties were attempts this weekend. Only two were kicked. And AJ missed under the sticks. That was wrong. But it's not as if he's not important, because look at the difference between the sides at Wellford Road. It was the fact that Fergus Berkard hardly missed. Well, look at George Ford. George Ford misses a penalty to try and get a bonus point. That's massive. There's only two sides that didn't get a single point this weekend. That's sale, and that's Harlequins, and their ninth and tenth. So bonus points are huge, but it's team's chase and tri bonus points at the moment, which should be the currency. It's going to be really interesting when then teams go into November, but then particularly when teams go into the World Cup, because the only time that refs on a global scale are centrally contracts is before a World Cup, how they then interpret the breakdown. Will it be this kind of give the attacking team all the license when if you get you're more right, and you keep the ball in the 22 yellow card to defence, yellow card to defence, yellow card to defence, or will they go look balanced to him, bat and ball. If you're good over the floor and your technique is right, you'll get rewarded, because that's where teams play or players playing in the Premier could come unstuck. I tried to make international rugby. Try to make the point on Saturday, but in the opposition half, I think refs need to be slightly more sympathetic to what they give as a penalty. Against the defence, if it's 50/50, the pay off is people are kicking to the corners, and the more such a big weapon now. So if you've been down on a 50/50, and then you've conceded a drive, the back of it have been put under pressure in its penalty card. Snowballs, isn't it completely out of control? So I just think it's not just ticking boxes, but it's your feeling, understanding of the game, knowing that that decision now, teams aren't kicking for post. Three points off a 50/50, you can deal with. Seven points on a card. It's the weight thing. You know if someone looks, if you're off your feet, you're off your feet, but you know when someone might be slightly leaning on the ball, he's like, that one, just give it. Well you want holding on there, you want the defence rewarded. If the player's gone, like done some good skill to get over the ball, and he might be slightly leaning on the guard. He's done that thing, he just leans his knee into the back just to give himself that support. I think that's a really hard thing to do. Reward it instead of going get off the ball. Yeah. And then he's got the team can't recover. No, but it's the way the prepper has been ref than we're seeing loads of tries. We're seeing high scoring games and entertaining games. And I still thought someday in Leicester was great. I didn't feel it was too easy to score tries. But the one I enjoyed most watching was extra-gluster. Yeah, without a shadow. Yeah. Because we're on about defences and, and try high scoring games. Gloucester just refused to exit the score. Extra weren't what we have seen them doing last season is how they create chances and they weren't at the best, but still Gloucester had a desperation to stop tries. Which is what. So that still gets rewarded. It's not as if you're on the back for in your own 22, you will eventually break. There's still is the opportunity to keep teams out if you're on. There's a difference. If you're on five meters out, it's not impossible. If you're on the 22, Gloucester showed you can keep teams out, you can defend it. But once you get to five meters, we might as well just all run back to the air for a while. Yeah. And say the yellow card. Yeah. Gloucester's defender thought was absolutely tremendous. I was chatting to Chris Boyd beforehand. And by the way, I know we've had some massive silence, but I think, yes, speak about Debbie Lagan, Jack Morgan, but the signing of Chris Boyd, I think huge. And the other ones Rob Burgess and people won't be familiar with Rob Burgess, but he used to be head of recruitment at Bath and he is a proper, proper operator. And you can see in some of their recruitment this summer, you've got a well-class hooker, a well-class number seven and a well-cut winner in your second row. So now you can compete set pace. And then I look at their like physical profile of this Gloucester backline. They're not big, far from big, but they are quick, they are fit, and they're skillful. And I was like, that rings a bell. Oh, just like the Northampton backline, the skill set, their catch pass movement chasing of good space on Saturday was, honestly, was as good as I've seen all weekend. Was right up there with what I see from Northampton, so I'm ready. Chris Boyd and the helicopter view, he's got over that coach and stuff, the influence and impact he's having already at Gloucester in terms of who they are and what they should be. I saw it on Saturday. They looked so brilliant. So, and I'm not getting over excited because it's round one. But all you want to see is be able to identify who and what they want to be. And I think I've got a clear vision of that already. How how how involved is he? Is he more involved and say Robbie Deans is at Harlequins? Because it's quite hard to tell sometimes he's in patches a few weeks and then head back. It's hard to tell with these kind of first three games kind of assault and type roles exactly how how involved they are. Yeah, because like working from homes like very different when you're homes in the Southern hemisphere, you know. But he is, he's coming, he's coming in waves, coming in patches, but they've got a great core collective. I mean, they've got your mate, they're Joel Tomkins and apparently he's having massive impact. Brett Deacon apparently has arrived with an awe and people are set up and listening and it is just one game. But Gloucester won one game on the road all over last year and it started really well and 45 points away from home against against Chiefs. That's that's that's a result that can't be underestimated. So that's the win of the weekend for you, even though Saris. Yeah, I'm just a game to watch. I just think you're watching that one. Saris Lester was good, but I didn't like the back to back. Yeah, I'm surprised. I just didn't get that. I didn't love the game. I spoke to producer on the way here and said it was a game which for me, generally you kind of get themes. So in the extra Gloucester game, there was like a real obvious thing for me. It was like ball movement and passing and physicality and all those things and the Saris had elements of that, but there wasn't one consistent theme throughout it, which you can latch upon and start story telling. Do you not think there was something like a little, there was some intensity about their ball carrier? Of course, there was great. There seemed to be a little bit higher than we've maybe seen in previous seasons. There was great intensity. I thought of all the matches, that would be the one most akin to like an international because of who they are, what they are, what they stand for. But I think Saris and this season, they're going to be a really, really tough team to be. I don't think they'll win awards for aesthetics. They won't at times because they've got players that can cut you open and do brilliant things, of course they can. But what they showed on Sunday was that they're just going to be a team that will always be there in the arm wrestle. When they, 20 minute red card, they won that period 12, 7. And Brad one's just scored to go, they go into the lead and they go down a man for the bulk of the rest of the games. Then you wouldn't think that said more of all minutes than it does. Do you think they just struggle to get control the game at any point really? I'd have thought at that point though with the well-fed row crowd braiding that. That's the moment. Half to them. Sarisans haven't had a scrimmuff like Thomas since Ben Spencer. You think previously, so who's been there nine, Van Zell, Tyler Davis, just thinking back. They haven't had a guy like Thomas who can do it all, like a playmaking nine kind of thing. Makes decisions. He's like, "I'm not going that way. I'm going this way." French type nine. It's more of a having number 10 type playmaker. And then can kick and put it where he wants to just control or just to control in nine. They haven't had it since Ben Spencer. So that's a big difference. I think it's a guy almost even considered a running nine back in the game plan. He had control. He'd find corners. He'd do stuff to a standard that I think Thomas can. I don't think they've had the same level of control from a nine or options from a nine. And that's got to help with the 10 then. That's got to help Ferg has to take pressure off Ferg's Burke if he's going to be the 10. I came playing at Manchester and I didn't get a chance to talk about it yesterday but I think I think people forget that Thomas Williams actually right-footed, he kicks. perfectly well off both feet, 56 feet. Which Benson does. Crazy. And like that is just a value in terms of control and just releasing that pressure valve, just knowing. So it does a matter like where they are, restars anywhere, just get rid of the ball. They went from Neil the Cock, Richard Wiggler's worth, Ben Spencer, three of the best. Especially kicking, no, I don't know, I'd put them in the top five in the world for kicking, box kicks especially. And they've not had it. They've not had a guy who couldn't be able to do, could take control, it's come off. When they relied so much on it for the best, but for 15 years now. I think the point was the first to kick from the floor with both feet, but it makes sense to try and do it if you're denying, given how much they clear the lines. So it's a major asset if you can do it off both feet. You're going to be at times when you actually can't physically kick off your right if you're in the left corner. Yeah, but then what most lines will do will just play a couple of rocks just to get them back in field, and then-- That gives them events more time and then changes the impact. Of course it does. But yeah, I mean, Tomas, I thought was, he was great. Talking of Williams, and you mentioned Dewey Lake and Jack Morgan, and your man Aaron Wainwright was terrific as well. So that kind of theme across the weekend of those Welsh fellas, some are coming from, obviously, from Groster to Sarri's in Williams' case, but three of them coming into the league and making a massive impact. I think Goster have got a few more youngsters as well to come through, because they're in ideal spot, aren't they, really? They can get home when they want to, and they're in the prime. So I think they've got a few. We're going to see a few more in the coming weeks, in the prime, a few more good youngsters, Welsh youngsters coming through. Yeah, Dewey is great. Even after the game, he was like, yeah, we won, but it doesn't matter if we don't do it next week. There's a lot he's been made captain. Sure it was. Barely pelly through the door. He's just, you get a sense of, like he scored two tries. He's lost his own score then last year. He just got a presence, hasn't he, the power of them, together? I was laughing with Alistair Eakin on Saturday. He was in commentary. I was like, "Dawi Lake is just a brilliant sign in isolation." But when you consider, they went from a mortgage advisor in Wilkrain to a friend of the pod, by the way. A friend of the pod, legend. A part-time mortgage advisor. No, it's a board-time mortgage advisor. Oh, time mortgage advisor. Part-time rugby player. "Dawi Lake, that's an upgrade." I mean, that's a dawn in this respect, Wilk, but I think you're probably right. They're just probably right. Facts. Wilkrain legend. He had to massive games, he played against too long. He came on the pods, like, hopefully he's listened to this and smiling with us, but that's an upgrade. Wilkrain, everybody, hope, every rugby in the land is going to hold, but they're going to be a will at some point. I thought you were going to say one signing lake in isolation is good and more in isolation is good, but having them coming together as mates who then are going to look out for each other and make sure they settle this, yeah. Captain and vice captain. Canne bit of work. Where should we go next? So, Christian Wade's got another few, Ashie. Yeah, yeah, I know. Ashie's few. It's going to go, isn't it? I mean, it's just-- Wait, it doesn't matter, because the latter score in 20 tries a year. Yeah, so you want tries to be changed inside of value. Why is that going to change? Or you want retrospectively yours to be even more value. You're obviously having, like, 1.5. It's like inflation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's on money. My heart is just working three to one and fifth. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I shut their Friday night and watch Tommy running another heart trick. Yeah, I mean, he faces cards right. He's going to score 20. He's going to be a 20. So, he makes a 20 league tries. He's already got 18, I think, last year. Yeah. Give him another-- at this rate that we're going, give him another five, six years. Paul, my God, he's on 58, 25. So by the age of 30, he's going to be 100 plus anyway. Yeah. Yeah, I think on Friday night I sat there and I'm like, by the Sunday night we've had four heart tricks. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Christian Wade get missing more tackles and scoring tries every game. He's probably shows where in Newcastle I said that. But they're not going to take his tries away if he misses tackles. Oh, no, mate. You say that to make yourself feel better, but the reality is he's on 97. Yeah, no, it's happening, but I don't think it's going to last longer if it takes here. Is it? It's going to be absolutely bound to smoother ends. Just like you look at the Premier League, and Alan Shearers, like Goalscore and Record, unless Harry Kane comes back, I don't know who's touching it. But you're one. Football doesn't change, or does it? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I've completed this. A great football has changed massively. In one way, there are no marksman anymore. Because they don't play that style. So it's changed. No, that's one cup. Well, the same one goes. No, one goes. Oh, mate, old days, 442, two men up front, marksman for days. If we're talking 90s football, where do we start? Shearers, shearers, cold, fat, fall, your. I've not been changed one law or rule ever. No, but teams play now out from the back. No, mate, false nights. They have no strikers. Give me three. You're just going in the Premier League. Harlow's. Harlow's. Issac. You're going on. No, just fat. That's what we've got to do. That's just the coach's interpretation. Harlow's is not a marksman. Wait, he's not a number 90. He is a number 90. He's not old school Andy Colby. Anyway, they don't change the rules. The law's every year to suit a more attacking rugby. So if we change football, let's just take a defender off every time the opposition gets the ball. Just go rid of the upside line. I just get really off side. I take your point. You can't tell me football isn't change when teams don't play. No, you're a little bit of coach. Coach, you're not changing the game. The rules don't exist anymore. The laws have not changed. They've not changed. We're trying to work out when no one's caught near on the Shearers record in 30 years. Yeah. Football's different. 20 years. It doesn't change. Five laws a year. OK, yeah, you, I mean, I think fundamentally you're right. The number of goals, probably stays by consistent. I still think that if they were marksman and managers played different styles without your premium put on guys banging in goals, then Shearers record would have gone. Then you're saying, well, Hollen will take his record. The quality of defender that is now in the Premier League is drastically different when Arashiyah was playing. They didn't have the best international's in the world playing in the Premier League. They didn't. Probably not across the peace. Right. The money that is in football has dragged every best football in the world to the league, right? Alan Shearer did not have that. It didn't happen. OK, but it is, it is, it is a, it's a real interesting quote that that football record has lasted so long. Of course. And as you seem to, but begrudgingly accept your record is going to be blown. Stand up. I'm fully accepting of it. I was just to be a record breaker forever. The reality of Alan Shearer's record going by a striker who's playing for the bottom team in the Premier League is just unbelievable as well. Yeah, that is crazy, isn't it? Like Newcastle. I don't have a way he's got most of them. No, I don't have a way to get lost. I don't have a way. OK. But if that was going back to, and they've lost by, by, by millions, does say a lot, doesn't it? Anyway, but she's getting over with. I feel like she's been doing this for about four years. He's taught him. We need to get it. We need to get it. We need to get it. We need to get it. We need to get it. A quick word on Northampton because of moment, and I, we had this chat didn't we before the game on Sunday. We're talking about good attack and bad attack. And good attack is brilliant. So watch and bad attack is actually offensive on the eyeballs. And there was a time when I think Northampton would go in at the line through the forwards. And then Finch Smith put his hand up, and the moment he put his hand up, he gets it. And I think I'd sign of a such a well-oiled team when there is just that connection between the whole set of players. That the moment he wants to ball, he gets it, and then he can put someone in too often, situations where teams are like, "Fly after calling for the ball, never getting it." There was the Carreras thing for Barth at the end of the extra game in the playoffs. It's just a good sign of where Northampton are at. And regardless of all the improvements, all the teams are made, they still look to be the team to be. They're the best connected team. And I saw that a little bit from Gloucester again this weekend, but I think they allow the forwards to do whatever they do. But I think the best teams, even when the forwards do have the ball, the backs are still working hard and getting into shape. To A, stretch the pitch as big as possible to try and create space for the forwards to have one or one collisions. And when the ball is lightning hot, that finish is getting the ball, because you know the difference between the space being there and the moment being there and someone taking it a phase on and then it's all just been shut down. They seem to get that right more, so they're not. I just sit and think, sometimes I think at England and international, we are slightly overcomplicating it. When you sit and see Saints, that is something that we could all play, that back line right there, if you want to, a couple of names in, no, why not just let them do what they want to do. Instead of going, oh, this part of the field, we want to do two phases and then we're going to look to kick it back there and then up the field, we're going to just let the lads do what they want to do. They're coming up with that. And the way they all play together, I just think we've got to be a bit more accepting of Saints, ladding what they want to do and how they want to play. And you know, on that, so I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about international rugby, but the way in which Saints play is so fast, it's so fluid, it's all based upon skill, speed and like. fitness, right? And then we were talking about just a couple of weeks ago, the teams that challenge in the best team in the world, being to Africa, New Zealand do exactly the same. I still think Australia have got the best handling set forward in World Rugby and we saw that again at the weekend and they beat South Africa. So in order for this England team to progress, do we lean into where the game's at, where it's been pushed towards, which is all out of tag? You can't just copy and paste it and stick it into an international rugby and expect it to work, but you can take the blueprint of it and try and mould it into the players because we do have the players there. It suits them better, I think. The S-word is skill for me and if you then extrapolate that to mention international rugby, what we saw at the end of the Red Rose's game when the Black Furns took Zoe Harrison's kick and played. Mental. Now you say mental. That was crazy. You say mental, but there's the strong argument. Look, if that's a World Cup semi-final, they take extra time or whatever. I mean, it wasn't a draw. They lost the game. Like for anyone who said Canada should have played last week, that's exactly what. It's a good example of why Canada made the right call. However, when you even won the World Cup in 2022, their skill level was through the roof. Now, I don't know if that was Wayne Smith's short-term impact on the Black Furns, but they played rugby from everywhere. I know it was against largely a 14-player Red Rose's in that final, but their skill level was super high. Look at the French when they play against the Red Roses. The Red Roses let you play a lot of rugby against them. A lot of time, the possessions, that's a high for the opposition, but their execution and their skill level always eventually lets them down. New Zealand can run it out from there. There is so much space on the pitch in women's rugby because the players are smaller. They're just execution and their skill level is not at the level because the past that Zoe intercepted was a poor past that there shouldn't be being given an international rugby. Do you know what? I think if New Zealand get their skill level to where it has been in the past, they can certainly give the Lions a proper scare next summer. So I didn't hate that they made the call, but I don't think they had the execution and the skill level to pull the call off. As soon as she missed the, as soon as Zoe missed the kick, I'll scream it out and get it off the pitch. You're 15 metres out from your trial line. You reckon you're going to go at 85 metres, and by the way, that's without any error or losing a penalty, which then Zoe's going to kick. Get it off the pitch. And whilst the past was on, I actually thought, and I know short-ed is only been in just a short while, but I thought it was a glimmer of brilliant defender rather than bad attack. Zoe's in the backfield and sometimes the hardest thing to do is commit to the front line because you're worried that if you get there and someone gets around you and you're now chasing. So you almost want to sit, sit, sit, give up loads of space, then make your tackle and go job done, but you've not. Zoe came from backfield straight into the front line, and I think that's what spooked the black fans 13 who then throws the ball because the pitch as she saw two seconds ago were changed. Zoe got in the front line, which shorned all about front line defence and committed to that, because why do you need two players in the backfield? If black fans want a chip in chase, good luck. That's a 50/50, and they're not going to kick it long because you're giving the ball up. So I thought it was brilliant defence to get in the front line to force the error, but I just, great from Zoe, but the decision made from the black fans, I just thought was, and it's easy to say it now. No, it's the game, but at the time, absolutely not. I see your black fans now. The line's coming to town, woke up three years down the track. You go right. The aim, a bit like what Northampton have done through there, through Chris Boyd and Dowson, Sam Vestie, upskill, upskill, upskill, upskill, to what the black fans did away in Smith in 2021-22. They've got something to work towards, that they can pull off going from 85 through their skill and execution because the space on the pitch is there in the women's game, and that's one of the USPs of the women's game. There is a little bit more space, so I don't see if you're Whitney Hanson. You go right, that's the target. In eight months time, upskill, upskill, upskill, if only Whitney Hanson had some brains trust in New Zealand rugby to call a bot and had any contacts of the horse that means to me, but I think I wouldn't be surprised if New Zealand rugby made it with the lines coming to town, that kind of collective, almost like whole country effort, like they made in 22 to win the World Cup at home, which I think makes that line story really fascinating. I said, they'll get it right. They're getting it right. It's the first time they've lost this year, they're aiming for me to go into the weekend, and actually Red Rose is one of their weaknesses, is their defence outweighed. Every time they're under pressure, whether it's France, Canada, all the black fans, they struggle outweighed Australia, the same, that happened in the quarter finals of actually the last pool stage game of the World Cup, so yeah, it was a fascinating game, what a great end to it, and I must say, for Red Rose's fans, they've been watching this team for a long time and put the World Cup to one side. How, what a slightly different experience, and I reckon enhanced experience, watching the last two weeks, where the game is going to the 80th minute, not done by 30, not done by 40 or 50, but did you see everyone get up on their feet, the games in the balance, 80 minutes in, Zoe scores an intercept, and people have enjoyed a great day, the sun was shining, they've got all the razzamatas, they've got the autographs after the match, but on the pitch, the product on the pitch has been next level, and that's exactly what you want for the game. 100% because I know there's been studies done, which have suggested that people go to watch the women's rugby, and they aren't as fast as they're being a competition, as people watching men's rugby, but you can't tell me that it's not better watching two teams go at it like that with the, with the, with the, with the Japanese in the score line, it's 100% makes it. Pot out, by the way, on the whistle with Sarah Cat, and Zoe Harrison's on it, and Emily Scarrett, we heard Zoe live and five live, actually just after the game, so make sure you get that with, with Sarah and the team. What will be Zashi? What's, what side will we say that? What's with Sarah Africa? First of all, the, the, the second, mixed of second, second. It's mainly set, we still got a bench with Malcolm Marks. Okay, so second and say, then Sasha Feinberg and Gumsulu and it's best starting, but second with a shrub first. It's mainly second with a sprinkling of first, that's it. Okay, yeah, but what a win, but we can't, we don't want to take anything from Australia, you know, I'm so happy to see Australia on the wing. I don't know why he's taking so long. You'd rather him on the wing. He's got to be on the wing. He's tried 13 forever, and he didn't get him in the game. His first game where he was playing the match, brilliant, since then, he is struggled. Yeah, he just doesn't, it doesn't, I don't think he knows how to get the ball and stuff, whereas in the wing, do give the ball, or he can chase kicks and cause chaos. And he can float because the way in which Australia set up, so they've got their front line attack as well as like a laid backline attack, because he's got lovely hands, and he's so dangerous and athletic, he can just loiter anywhere in the backfield. Him and Tom Wright together just get them connecting, try and link up and just create havoc. So he just looks miles better because he didn't have any define role. He's not having to organise backlines. He's literally just there as a sheer athlete just running and creating carnage, which maybe that's going to be the turning point. They need like where they realise we're better than, and we should be performing consistently to be in these teams again. A bit of it before. They've had a good few years with the squad, no. Interesting that they went back to, is it Donaldson? Yeah, fly off, bit of an older experience player, but less kids have just gone, I need you to. Still an issue, isn't it? It is, but I understand why he did it, and look, it worked, a large part. I've got an experienced guy who's just getting, moving the team around the pitch, and he's solid in defence, and he'll kick for you. I understand why he was doing the carnage result. Just. Yeah. 42-70. They're like the men though. Yeah, 42-70, I was like, thank you, cruising. And then I went to go and get some food, came back, and I was like, that, it's 42-38. What if I missed? How did you fail? I don't even know how you do it. Scrums, it must be ridiculous. But how long was it? I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. That was the Scrums. It was all about lines and cards from the South of Confresher. Yeah, so it depends how much you read into the final score and the 11, all you go, obviously a 25 points up, admittedly against a box team that's changed, and has been to the well four times and reverse the world. So there's context, but look, a strong wall of bees, it's just massive, because then come November, England start off with Australia, they play Scotland of Wales as well, that's big for November, if they're strong, and then the world cup. Last year we had that chat, didn't we? The other day about host nations and world cups, and as Michael Hooper told us on the pod last summer, Aussies like a winner, if the wall of bees are going well, look how strong Wallaby rugby was at the turn of the century. Do you remember like early 2000s? The Brombees. Of the Brombees, and the Wall of bees were winning bled so cups, and it was just everyone around Australia was all over the Wall of bees. There was this whole campaign, I want to be a Wall of bees, and you don't want to play AFL or an RO, you want to play rugby union to be a Wall of bees. That only works if the Wall of bees are winning. The Wall of bees have to win to then get the fans, other more than vice versa. The touch shape we see of today, you know, with lead runner guy at the back, that came from Australia, that came from the Brombees, they launched that in the early 2000s. I'm going to speak into Andre Vossu, former South African captain who like captain us at Harlequins. He played in the first match where there was lead runner coming at the back, as a number seven. a world-class number seven, he said he didn't know what was going on. It's assumed it was illegal or whatever, but it never had to defend anything like it. It was just like, it was so weird and this is a guy who's a student of the game going just absolutely bamboos would buy it, so seeing Australia be themselves, but brilliant version of themselves, I thought, I'm actually so pleased at the result, because if South Africa came back and snuck it, you'd be like, this is typical South Africa, but the reality is the result for Australia would do way more for Australia than it ever would for South Africa, because they've made their point in the greatest rivalry over the last few weeks. On the international rugby, in the prime this weekend, there was one summer one player. Hooko, for Lester. He's talking? Morley. No. Lou Attua. He came off a bench. He's the only summer one in the league. Why is that something to happen, because I haven't even put some on, do we used to see him in the prime? Yeah. Well, certainly some on rugby is not what it was, is it? Well, the national team. Well, he has gone by, but if I'd won or two in every team, I wonder why they were two as the only player. Well, you would have played with the PCs. Yeah. Yeah. You could go through him. Two along E's, PCs. Yeah. The tangy, thank you very much. Thank you very much. A few of those bought it. Well, there's loads. We could literally reel them off. Interesting. It's not, he's the only guy on the weekend. So I just wonder why. I don't know if rugby league he's maybe pulling a few more. Sort of thought. Very interesting. Yeah. No, interesting. Whether more go up, yeah, playing their rugby in New Zealand or Australia. I don't know. It's a good question. Certainly the, the Simone national team seems to be a shadow of itself. Yeah. Well, there might be one reason, but I don't know why it's happening. You mentioned Swiley on the, you want to see his wing going forward. That brings to mind your gripe last week about there being no coaches who were former wingers. Oh, yeah. And we've actually been inundated by suggestions. Really? And by the way, I listened to the last week and you're spot on. And actually, Danny did illustrate exactly the type of attitude that the Sparrow to the wingers and what I would say is, wingers perspective of the game is so, so different to anyone else. Like Danny is, as an umber nine, touches the ball more so than anyone has to make loads of decisions, unbelievable in terms of connecting the backs with the forwards, understanding where slow ball to hot ball and all the rest of it. Where I say it, we have this ability to be able to just see space. We see space like we, we chase space, hunt space, can see wherever it's front, we're front line or back line, whether it's the backfield, we can see space, we run to space, we try and coordinate the team to be able to find space. So we have a very, very different perspective of it because we're far away. We're just known for just like putting the ball down in the corner or whatever, I don't think people perhaps respect the opinion of wingers as much as perhaps. Yeah, might be because people go, you're looking at it through an idealistic lens, you're being selfish lens. Well, you're seeing rugby all those space there, let's attack attack attack, you often see wingers like waving one in the ball while people are keeping it tight. So mate, and then you get a second row or a flanker as a coach, you're like, no, this is how you've got to win rugby matches. Yeah, different perspective. So what was it come up with? Oh, well, we've had Philip Sounds Andre. That was a great one, actually. I mean, what a player. Yeah. I mean, scored one of the greatest tries of all time. I'd love to know. And it was coach of the French national team, so pretty decent credential. I'd love to know his line to be in a coach. I'd love to know how he became coach. What, but he needed to deal with a lot of prejudice because of his position. No, definitely enough to deal with that, but he probably retired and then right, Philip, you are a fantastic French player. Come coach. Yeah. That was it. He don't think he had to, yeah. Who else? John Kerwin? OK. Yeah. That's a good question. I just didn't see John. We see John lot more on TV these days, but he's got a good coaching, coaching CV, Mark Jones at the Ospreys. Mark was a heck of a player, Grant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And is the head, right? At the Ospreys of another shot. And Ben, your agent was talking about Hugo Moller. Is he here? Who, according to his wiki, is a wing/fallback? The fallbacks. We had plenty of fallbacks. We need both of them. Yeah. We need wingers who cannot play fallbacks. Yeah. But like three, you've got three names, three names. Those are four. Kerwin, Sansundray, Moller and Jones, I think those are the four we've been given in 60 years. Yeah. No, it's a no. It's a, I think they are the exceptions to prove that we're all perhaps. But does that mean I'm right? I'm wrong. I think you've made, you've rated it. You've made it. It's a talk point. It's a talk point. People are mesh to say. They're screaming at their, wherever they're podcasts, screaming out loud. Right. What was Leskis? Leskis. Um, I would say, I would say Leskis. I'd say Leskis. Actually, it's a lot older than I thought. I love Leskis. Um, player, he was a wing. Yeah. Wing for, for, for Queensland, four caps for the Walla B's in 1986. Okay. There you go. You just plucked that out of nowhere, haven't you? There you go. His first job was as South Africa defense coach. Maybe the soap for me. Maybe there. So, this is all about you trying to, well, all about me. It's all about me. Um, message to finish. Good morning, guys. Perhaps me being a bit dim, but who is Paddy who got married? No. And also, who is Hicks? Never met before. Never met either. No. Paddy is our, we sit in, we are sitting in Paddy's kitchen right now doing the pods. We do the pod of Paddy's and he films. Paddy's, they want. Paddy is one of the pod OG's when Hugo and I started in the pod. We did it at Paddy's flat where I was living who came to ours. Paddy recorded it. Rest his history. That's 10 years. No, that's different pod. 10 years in Jan. That's another pod was a 10-year-old. 10 years in Jan. And a verse report to come. And Hicks is our producer who's in Manchester at the moment, so he's on a screen. Both of them like to keep below profile, like to lurk in the shadows. Social media for years. The very absence of social media for all. We'll never post themselves. What do you say? Paddy loves his loppy kiss apparently. And Paddy is very loved up as the study was saying. He's not happy about it. He's not really not happy about it. He's going to try to keep his finger fixed. He's never seen club kissing like that. Oh, man. It's anything worse. Socially awkward when someone is like that. What is their weddings? They could probably be people. No, but Paddy wants. It wasn't a business meeting. It was like during a pod record. Everyone loves affection. Everyone loves to see love. But like summoning your new wife in front of all her family and her friends. Like deep kissing. And then not kissing. Smogging. Like wet. Yeah. Oh, snappy bro. Yes. My first sorry for Kate. She was like Paddy was 80. Kate was 20. They just isn't the plate. They wouldn't even do that in on the 18s. No. They just wouldn't do it. It was like, you save it. I thought it was high on Hooch. I don't think it's an acceptable place to be doing that. Well, I think they started at lunchtime. We came late to the party. So. I hope that a good night as well. They went off to the. Where did they stay? They stayed at. Come on, we go. We get it. No, where did you stay? No, think carriages or something. Yeah. I was there at carriages. Yeah. But Paddy's got loads of dough. He would have bought it. He says on the wall in carriages, no heavy petting. I got boots and stayed in a travel. I was going to finish this message. So Nick is asked who was Paddy. He was 60. That's who they are. And then he said, right then, will we see a more bizarre tried than the bath driver, Santa Carrera. In the pod where we started it. Amazing. Tried the season wrapped up. My take is he's completely knackered on a two-in-one. And he's gone. Oh, I'm in wrong position. Yeah, I'm going to swing a leg at it. And the rest is just ridiculous. His body position is in the wrong place. I don't think the pass is great from. Tyrone Green. Tyrone Green. Terrible pass. He's a bit slow and a bit sloppy, isn't it? Because how is it landed on Carrera's? He's fought. I'm not having his that flexible. What were we saying this yesterday? Like, you want to pass what nipple height? There's no way Santa Carrera is getting his foot up. Yeah, nipple height. So the pass. A fast pass, you know, a fast bit of speed on it. He's not getting into it. But Carrera's is so isolated. Tyrone of all the decisions he could have made. If he went on his own, I think he scores. If he passes it at the appropriate height. I think Quinn's score is done none of it. But what a moment. Yeah. You're almost better watching that. If you are a fan of you haven't got understanding of positioning. Yeah. Yeah. That's a fantastic try. Yeah. So the majority of people are going to go great try. You too. Yeah. That's four more than I'm going to take. I absolutely like he's being a bit overrun. He's done. I've got to say, such an important try. Barth for four points up at that point with a minute to go to half time. Next thing, Santa's scored under the sticks. Seven pointer. They've got an eleven point lead. And that almost burst the bubble because I reckon Harlequins, for all their injuries missing, argue before their most influential players. Marcus Smith, George Verbank, Finn Baxter, and we know Alex Don Brandy, ACL. He went a little bit earlier. To be within four points, you're like, we're doing okay, eleven points. Yeah. And there was like this. What's up with those lads, do you know? Finn Baxter, they're hoping it's nothing too long. Marcus broken his finger. They're sitting to wait as to whether give it time or do he, does he get operated on? No, no. The difficulty with some of these lads now. because of this new enhanced agreement with England is, it's not really a quince decision anymore, it's an England decision. So England can say to Finn Baxter, you know, you've been suffering from your foot for the last six months. Take the next month off, excuse me. Like, see, you can just start, they could do that with markers, they could say, "Operate now, that's going to be five weeks, and then you can get back into rugby in October." So, it's a wait and see, George Furbank should be available this weekend and don't brand what he's out for the majority of the season. -Oh, wow. -Do you worry about them, quince? Yeah, they just lack any. I mean, what we've spoken about, even in the first week, is the impact of what international players have had on teams. Thomas Williams, don't you like Jack Morgan? The generally the best players in the game are international players. Quince haven't recruited any apart from Furbank, and they're not exactly. It's not signed any type five. They've not got loads of lads coming through the academy ripping things up. So, I just don't know where. Plasma and I, really, because we've said loads of times, such a big club out there. -He's club in London, really. -Yeah. Where they are in that, and so all of Twickenham Richmond is just. -It's crazy. -They've got massive four weeks. Well, I watch them across their pre-season Premier League pick-up to really good results and huge amount of positivity. I think that's why people were so disappointed on Friday night, because they thought, "Oh, things are changing." And, hey, this is week one, like no one's rowing anyone off a game, or no one's anointed anyone's champion. -Just lost them, right? -Yeah. But, yeah, this week, they've got Gloucester away. I think that is such a big game. You've got a. Sorry, if you see Marcus, there's five weeks out. He seasons like quarter done. Well, this is it. They're first five fixtures. They've got Gloucester this weekend. They play Cell, play X to play Saris. And we know, like, we've got used to the cadence of this league, the speed of this league, because that's why last year, we were getting statements in, like, December and early January. Top four was done. So, if you have a bad start to this season, you'll then rely upon, like, we've got to win 10 in a row. Do you mean that's what Saris acted to do to the end of the season? And just lost out. So, the first five fixtures almost dictate exactly where you're going to be. And so, King's home this week, having no bonus points from the weekend, I just feel. I don't know. Yeah, feels. Feels big already. Nick Roach's message ends. Always enjoy the pod. But why do you keep. This is to me. Why do you keep poison in poor old Chris? Poisoning. Well, you were saying. Oh, sickness. Yeah, you're a danger, mate. I need to come in. That's not a suit, I think. And final word, I can't believe it's taken this long. We're having Pollock's lit. That's the final word. Oogs is going to be really happy about this. Um, what to make of it seems a bit more true, doesn't it? I don't get it. I don't get it, but maybe that's me being a dinosaur living from a different era. But, yeah, there's a lot of fanfare about it. TV will love it, isn't it? Burnley? From the moment he got to the stand with his hat on, what was underneath, he said, "I thought it was going to be some decent, like, at least a dyed pink lid or something." 'Cause he sort of teased it on. It's so true, isn't it? They didn't stay in, they looked like. the guy, Keith, at a prodigy, for a large part of the game. He was just all sticking up at the sides. What were you doing that for? I was getting off from that such a great review, so you put that out. Yeah, where on earth is that from? It's a twisty fight star. I do not thought he was Keith and prodigy for part-large parts of the game. He was only trying to brush it down, so he had to double-take it. I swear, that's Keith and prodigy, we're doing that chip and chase. Anyway, actually, you'll stay quiet about it. Are you doing a marina if I speak, um, you're doing a marina if I speak, I'm in trouble. What's to be said about it? That's enough. That's enough. Don't need any more. I don't need any more. It's served its purpose. You must have done so. I'm not having it that you, the rock boys, I was self-named. That did not do something ridiculous like that when you were playing. When I was 18, so, like, sorry, I'd just finished my A-levels and I died my hair blonde. Okay. Just because you can be rebellious. That's the only thing I did. I didn't. There's no difference, is it? Um, this isn't. I'd. Yeah. It just sounds to that. Is there a difference or not? Yeah, there is. I mean, because by Saturday, he's the corner I've got. You could have shaved your head by Saturday. So the only reason you're doing it is to be. Okay. Yeah, well, obviously, you might have. No, to anyone. Where things do haircuts anything they're doing it to be noticed on. No, I don't think they are. Like some people. You'd be happy if you left him in for the next six months. If that's what he wanted to do, that's what he wanted to do. But, like, when you. You want to commit to the key to it? I've got one more for you, right? Brendan Venter. I think he's already had a fine. It's a two. He's a two already. Yeah. Sure, is he just going to keep going down that road, do you think? Must be. He's had two fines already from Prem Rugby, yeah. For not talking to the media. Well, it's mental, like. The launch day didn't do that. But can't they just say, "Oh, no, oh. " I think you'd have to change his head man. No, he'd have to change his job description, yeah. He's direct to Rugby, like. Direct to Rugby all got together, didn't they, for the start? They should really. If he wants to just keep a low profile, he should call himself a technical director. You should make Joe direct to Rugby, and he'd go head coach. Or say we don't have a direct to Rugby, like Joe is the head of Rugby, like Quinn's have done. Well, still might still do, they don't have a direct to Rugby, yeah. But while he's direct to Rugby, he's got to do stuff, which he's not doing. And they just. Yeah, they've had too fine, so. Well, he's gonna. Yeah, I think that's. I think the most annoying thing is. The two years are going to be old-school salaries properly asked against the World Cup. Well, maybe. I hope it isn't, because we just would like. Everyone would like to hear from Brendan, I think. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. They will do when they flocked their 150th anniversary DVD that day. No, it's like. That's what was happening. It was 150th year. They're going to document the whole thing. Then they'll sell that, they'll put it out, and they'll hear loads and Brendan there. But. Well, it's like the players that don't do no media during their careers. They've got a book out, so they'll be like. I just want. I don't mind, like, everyone has the right to do whatever. But we also have a right, and there's a contractual right, like. And I know I'll talk about TNT on this, but, like, pay 40 million pound a year, like, come on. And do you guys haven't been able to get near him? No, have you heard him on our channels? And it's like, I love Saracens for who they are and what they are and all the rest of it. And it's, of course, every organisation does things their own way. But for 40 million pounds a year, which is invested in, and we've got a long-term deal and partnership, and everyone's meant to be, like, come by our holding hands, trying to grow the game. Together, do we just allow people just to do what they want when they want? I don't think that's right. Right, point. All right. No, no. Good stuff. Enjoyed that? Routes through loads there. Midweek pod, special with. Imagine Whitney Hanson and the Lions, which is next summer. Joe, yeah, Whitney Hanson and Sarah, all in conversations. I'd be really good to listen. That's out in midweek. And there's loads to come on the Robbie and Weekly podcast, as ever. -We're having this weekend. I, um, at Saracens on Sunday, um, Saracens on Sunday. -Of course, yeah. -Yeah, I just see. Because you went outside the M25 last week, actually. Where are you guys? -Barth and Bristol. -Barth and Saturday. I'm doing my first of about six trips to Newcastle. I think they're hoping, at some point, I'm stood there and goes to Wade Roles over Bristol. -They're gonna break each other. -That's sad when I do it. It's like you're just tracking him. Every week, I'll just be stood there looking glum until he scores. That's Saturday, eight o'clock. Yep. That's me. See you all there. But you won't. That's like the Simpsons. I'll get you a beer baron. No, you won't. Thanks for downloading Rugby Union Weekly. -For more info. -Head to the BBC Sounds app. Down, down, down, down. This is the story of an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia with a dark secret. Of the school's head teacher. This was someone I respected above anyone else. And the investigation led by students he's trying to silence. This is the link to the media. I'll be destroyed. This is World of Secrets Catching My Teacher. 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