The Politics of Luxury | Why Britain Undervalues One of Its Greatest Assets

That's why we're getting inauthentic politicians who people don't trust. And there are actually the reasons why people quite like Nigel Farage. I said this as a conservative, because he's considered to be authentic and he enjoys the luxuries of the cigars and the nice sort of, you know, tweed suits and all the rest of it. I think it is a bit burn out on it, it was the richest man in the world. And that's incredible. You've got to think about that. He didn't invent the microchip or social media. He sells handbags. Yes. And after dinner, look here. Yes. And I had the joys of doing some of the Brexit discussions and negotiations for the home office and Brussels. We'd always end with a discussion over a glass of Scottish whiskey. We're getting people drunk. And then you've got some quick whiskeys up there, but I went to Japan to sign a trade deal. And I was actually completely crushed by the Japanese people. I've never been so beaten. I was getting drunk on my life, our ambassador. I think still recovering. Hello and welcome to the luxury dispatch, the podcast that plunges the cavity air of curiosity and reveals the refined in the rare that makes up the luxury industry. I'm Tom Chamberlain and today we should be stepping into the world of politics. Because luxury for all its beauty and craftsmanship does not exist in a vacuum. It lives in economies, in trade agreements, in tax codes, in diplomacy, and perhaps more than anything in the decisions made in corridors far from the shop floor. Then again, our politicians frightened of it. Is it a vote loser or can it be a campaign cornerstone from herited industries to global soft power, from regulation to reputation? The politics of luxury shapes not just what we buy, but what nations choose to protect, promote and project the world. To explore that landscape, I'm joined by two men who know better than most how politics and industry entwine. Lord Dominic Johnson, former trade minister, chairman of the Conservative Party and long-standing chairman of British Enterprise, and subround and Lewis, former cabinet secretary with deep experience at the heart of government. Welcome to you both. Thank you very much. I thought about this as a germane topic because I remembered that a while ago, it was Rory Stewart running for the London Mayor. And I messaged somebody who I knew who I knew was on his team and said, "Look, I think it would be really great if Rory could come down to Savaro to meet the tailors and to understand the issues that they face because it's not an issue of consumer interest. It is an issue of things like rent, VAT, business rates, all that kind of stuff." And the response I got was basically, "It's a bad look. I would love to be able to, among other things, explore this, to start with the idea that luxury to some extent in the eyes of politicians has this sort of mark of cane on it. Can we explore that?" And I said, "What you think that might be behind that?" I think it's disappointing actually. Savaro is one of those quintessentially British things that's known around the world. It should be a South's pitch. But I think what you saw, what you found with Rory not going is a symptom of one of the things I saw a few times in various roles I had. But when I was in government, you become very conscious and advisors and simply become very conscious of not looking in a way that's going to get criticism and not looking to a leetist. When in fact, actually, the artisanship, the skill set, the craftsmanship, the things like Savaro and there's other, obviously, sectors and areas around the UK that do this. Things like Savaro should actually be the pinnacle of what great British exports is part of our soft power. But people do, they do run scared of it. Lord Johnson, the luxury industry in politics, festive bedfellows or the twinge will never meet. I mean, ultimately people are aspirational and also want people to be authentic. I think if you love luxury and beautiful things and things that have been spoken and made for you or you've had input in designing, I guess, very important to project that. And everything about this great nation is really about luxury from the king on down, from Savaro to the German street to Rolls Royce to our Premier League. Everything we project is really the principle of aspiration and luxury. And that's our British culture. So for politicians to advocate that, I think, is an enormous problem. And yes, Brandon's right. You've got two very well-dressed, luxurious politicians here, current and former, and still to be. And actually people love the fact when politicians expires Britain, expires luxury, look good. We remember Margaret Thatcher's handbag, Anthony Eden's suits. In fact, Tony Blair, interestingly, was probably the last Prime Minister, who actually embraced the principle of what we export in terms of luxury Britishness. I mean, I definitely think that if a politician showed up today looking like Anthony Eden, it would be a real talking point. I mean, to some extent we'll talk about his PR isn't in. The problem with politicians and PR. There's sort of a sensitivity around that. Yeah. And I think sometimes people can flate luxury and quality with flash. Flash doesn't work. And as Dominic said, if you're authentic and you're saying it's quality, actually I think we should be proud of that. You and I both know Gatzeon and Gurlin, Dean, they're proud Northampton's here. Is world renowned for the quality of shoes that come from the UK, several rows, world renowned for the quality of tailoring. These all parts of the UK soft power, and actually we should be doing more to support it. And I think sometimes we, as I say, I think people with impolitees get wary about the press being negative about what they do. And I think if you're flash, absolutely, and that's not appropriate, but quality is a different thing. And I've seen it. I've named somebody because it was in the public domain. And I thought it was really unfair. A colleague of mine, Jillian Keegan, great great member of Parliament, great lady, did a TV interview, and the reporting after this wasn't about our interview, it's about the watch she was wearing. She was very successful, busy swam before, self-made, had a very nice watch on, that's what the media focused on. And that is what makes people nervous. But I think that's all that's wrong with the world today. And there are actually three reason why people quite like Nigel Farage. I said this as a conservative, because he's considered to be authentic. And he enjoys the luxuries of the cigars and the nice, sort of, you know, tweed suits and all the rest of it. Yeah. And I took some school round Parliament the other day, and I gave them an hour long tour, and I fascinated them with historical dates, the glorious revolution, you know, the history of the Palace of Westminster. And they all were in complete silence really for the entire hour, in some of the middle distance. And I said, I said, I said, any questions? And one of the kids put his hand up and said, yes, it's a Rolex. And that was interesting. They're interested. I realised that actually they want, you want your politicians, you want your political leaders to look good and also reflect their own authentic self, which is that we aspire to nice things and comfort. And actually that's the job of the politician is to give people longer, happier, more comfortable, wealthier lives. And by pretending somehow that, you know, I'm down with the kids, yeah, I'm being inauthentic, I'm reaching trust with the population. And also, I'm not doing my job, which is supposedly to make everyone richer and happier. So you said that this is a problem with the world. Do you think that this is actually more of a problem with British politics? Yeah, I do. Yes. Because if you look around the world, the US is a good example. In the US, the US system exudes power. Yeah. I always remember what's a long time ago, being in a restaurant in London. And Duke of Cambridge and Duchess were in there having dinner in a relatively private sort of space. Nobody would have known they were there. You know, the protections very discreet. I had protection for a while that in the UK, we're very discreet about it. You wouldn't necessarily know. And nobody in that restaurant knew who was just sitting around the back of the restaurant at all. During the meal, a couple of guys walked in, very tall guys, in very dark suits, looking something like the men in black film, but with the sort of mouthpiece here and an earpiece in, talking to each other very, and the thing that was really odd because we don't do that in the UK. And then five minutes later, that road, full of great big cars, it in came at the time, Secretary Kelly. Okay. This is a while ago. And it just made me think we've got the future heir to the throne here. Nobody knows they're here. And American politicians come in and the world knows they're here. They exude power in that way. And it's very authentic for them as well. Because now I'm not suggesting we should be quite like that. But there is a balance in between. And you know, saying a few minutes ago, and my advisors would always say to me, before we're not on the end, you take your watch off. Yeah. Just because you just don't want that's not what you want the folks to be. If somebody catches what you wear and whether it's a good watch or bad watch or anything, we are, I think it's a very British thing about, you know, we like to keep our, we like to be a bit more humble, but actually that shouldn't stop us from promoting something that is quintessentially British, that is high quality. And actually a really important industry for the UK. Yes. I think the optics of success are very different. I mean, you know, the cabinet currently in America is, you know, billion, else billion, else billion, which just could not happen in currently in British politics. Somebody said to me a while ago, that was an ancient days, because of the history of the UK. And when we were an empire and then we stepped back from that, there's almost that we're a bit embarrassed about what we are in our past success. So we are more retinous about, you know, what we do. And even if you look within the UK, you know, some Patrick's days are big event. Some days is day, you know, all of it, we don't celebrate some Georgia's day in quite the same way. We're a bit more conservative about it with a small sea. But you do see other countries around the world where their politicians will be much less worried about wearing luxury goods. Highlighted that, you know, I spent a lot of time in the UAE ministers there are successful smart people in their own right. And they will wear what they want to wear. And you know, you want good people doing these roles. And actually, one of the things I think again in the UK, it's not just UK produced products, but I think the luxury market in the UK, people used to come from around the world, not just for several road, but even non-English brands that happen to have the parts shown and facilities in the UK, they'd come here to visit them. It was a real centre, and we're losing some at part, because the tax system, and that's where politics has a real impact. You've only got to see the impact in London, on sales of things, following the change to VAT and GT3 shopping, lead loan where business rates are, has a big impact. So politics has a real impact on the luxury market. I'll definitely come onto the VAT stuff and so forth, but I wanted to just pick on something you were saying earlier about the rest of the world, because Melod, you have done huge trades, deals across the world when you were a trade minister. Tell me more about when you go abroad, how brand Britain includes its luxury industry and how people see it and look up to it and admire it for what we have. Yeah, well firstly, I'm not a high court judge, so you don't need to call me Melod. I think you know, John's my lord, or Dominic. I mean, you know, a luxury name like Dominic is fine. I mean, I think just Giza, John Swanson. And a brand of comment about not being told to wear as watch when he went into an interview is actually really interesting. I mean, my officials were wonderfully supportive of, or you know, who I wanted to be in, how I wanted to project myself. And they encouraged me to wear basically English tailoring, everything I'm wearing now from my pants outward is made in this great nation. Thanks. The shoes, the tie, the Emma Willis tie, you know, Welsh and Jeffries, you know, the shirt and all the rest of it, and the entermula and that's it. This is important and I saw myself, as Arley, as a brand ambassador for the UK, by the way, because this is a UK-wide industry, including things like Scotch, Whiskey and all the rest of it. And you know, I'd drink litres off when I was abroad. Marvelous. Somebody has to. Well, I was beaten by a Japanese trade. I always wanted to talk about your, how you would cope. Well, I'm not glad you were just. I'm not a great whiskey drink. I know you've got some great whiskeys up there, but I went to Japan to sign a trade deal. And I was actually completely crushed by the Japanese trade. I was drinking competition in my life. I'm ambassador. But I used to make a point of projecting the whole principle of Britishness. And what I loved about it is ever and to round the world. Whenever I went into a room to get investment for the UK, we were 15 love up. And what I find distressing was that the government, basically, everything it could put us 15 love down. And I would go and see people who's children have been at school here, by the way, education is a luxury export, but the private schools, the system. Very much so. And our universities, which are incredible, who'd had property in London, I mean, all the Gulf state politicians, all the politicians in Asia, they all have properties in the UK. And that just gave me an enormous advantage. And I always got frustrated that things like VAT or shopping and other issues that we'd have. And even just even visas for people who wanted to come to London to shop and spend and participate in our luxury industries, were all made more complicated. And I thought that was very irritating because we have everything here. And people wanted. I didn't have to sell. The door was open when I arrived at the room. And the point was we should be pushing it wider, open, not trying to close it. And could you explain the VAT change? Yeah, just before we do the VAT, I just want to build on that soft PowerPoint, Dominic made it. And it is a really important thing because when I was in the home office, I used to. I had responsibility for a European poll and interpot. And European poll at the time was led by a Brit, Rob Wayne might, great guy. And European poll, every country would do an event during the course of the year. And I remember the sort of scientific, the most popular one of the year was the. The one that the UK held. Really? And that was because Rob's second in command was a Scott. And he would speak to some of the Scottish whiskeys. So it's basically a whisky tasting evening. Everybody came to that. And it was a real. And that's a real exusion of using our soft power by using British products in the whisky industry. I think Diajo is the. Well, whiskeys are the biggest agriculture export. Is that right? So Diajo is exporting. Almost probably on the whisky industry. You've got these great products going around the world. And we use that soft power. And when I was. I had the joys of doing some of the Brexit discussions and negotiations for the Home Office and Brussels. We'd always end with a discussion over a glass of Scottish. We're skinned people drunk. Later on in my career, when I was in Northern Ireland, obviously it was bush meals. It's got. Which is superb. But the whole range of these things we use, you know, I'm wearing an English-made suit by a great Tate of Chris Kerr. He produces a lot of the suits materials for some of the world's leading men in the biggest movie stars in the world. And he goes out to LA and, you know, that's again, that we are British tailoring, is tailoring international stars in movies around the world. And it's an important industry. And then that also, you know, encourages people to come to the UK as you're saying. The shopping and the problem with the VAT issue is. And the duty-free shopping, particularly. When we took away a duty-free shopping, it meant the visitors who used to come to the UK, whether it's from the East or from the US, would come to the UK. They come to London, staying great hotels, eating great restaurants, go around the shops, and spend a lot of money. You government benefits from some tax on that money, obviously VAT, etc. And then they go home. The difference, once the duty-k media is they can come to London. They might do a bit of science in. They'll still go to some great summer greatest restaurants in the world, which is also a luxury thing that we're renowned for. Some of the best hotels in the world, but then their window shop. And then instead of staying in the UK for a week or whatever, they'll go to Paris or Rome for a couple of nights. And then do the shopping there, because they're getting in 2025, it's at least. And how much money you've got, you're spending more, 20% of that is a lot of money. So the mood, the spend has moved. So the UK has lost out on that. Gradually, they spend more time in Paris, Milan, or wherever it is to do their shopping. Well, that's where they're going to go. We lose out. So I think for example, last year in London, I saw some figures where football was up, but spend was dramatically down. And that's the problem. And forging me, isn't that a fairly easy fix? And if so, why hasn't it been done? So it Rishi brought it in as Chancellor. When Liz Truss came in as Prime Minister, Liz and Quasi put it back. And then when Rishi became Prime Minister, he took it out again. So it's Rishi's fault? Yeah, he's Rishi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a great example of politicians not understanding how people want to live and not understand the importance of the dynamic economy. And just as I jump to a slightly bigger topic, I'm very concerned that we have very few global fashion and luxury brands, actually. And the Burberry is probably the only one that could be on a par with sort of, let me be talking about whatever it is. We've got some fabulous second sized businesses like Malfree or Joe Malone or whatever it may be. We never really understood the importance of investing in our luxury industry. And it's not just about some nice things to wear or the brand Britain, but a few years ago, Bernard Arnoh was the richest man in the world. We've got to think about that. He sells handbags and after dinner, look here. He's the richest man in the world. And that says how important the luxury industry is and how important it could be to the UK. What's frustrating is we have the crafts people here. Many of these European luxury brands, they're either made outside the country in which they operate in all they have sort of workforce is brought in in order to make their goods. So the idea of traditional craftsmanship and stuff has been heavily diluted. I'm careful how I say that, because that's not in all cases, but in many cases. Whereas in Britain, we make these things here. And the specialization and quality is so far and above everywhere else in the world. I just find it frustrating that we don't have a government principle. The body politic, this is what we're talking about, why aren't politicians proud to wear great several rosuits? And beautiful English shoes and all the rest of it. Whereas at the same time, there's a bit of hypocrisy because there's been scandals over politicians receiving freebies, luxury goods on the side, but not being honest enough either to display them or own them themselves. And the last thing I want to say is that luxury doesn't need to be expensive. But your podcast is really about style. It's not about expensive things. It's about style, which obviously high quality costs a bit more than mass production. But in terms of authentic politicians buying things as stylish and looking good, that's something that we need. And it's bizarre that we're so unconfident in our political classes to project that. And in some areas, you can see that other parts of the world, other countries, other businesses around the world, understand the value of British quality, hence why a couple of our arguments in a country world, if you like, some of our biggest brands, British brands, owned by, they're not British anymore. No. You know, great perdi, fabulous brand, great cross-hairs, great history, part of the Vishamon group, Holland and Holland, went to Chanel, now part of the British group. You know, these are great British brands that companies from other countries have recognized the value of. And they've kept them as British in the sense of it's British, skills, British craftsmanship. But we should be proud of that, that we're able to build and develop these brands ourselves. And actually, government should be supporting them, because they are part of our soft power. Because that's something I've seen you speak out some before is the idea that the French and the Italians, they're big on it. I mean, I think in France, they are basically a protected species. If you're a tailor or a couture in Paris, you basically get a much better deal than everybody else. And that's where I think politics and the luxury industry clash, certainly here in the UK, is that while the Italians and the French are very big to promote it and speak highly of it and be proud of it, it's the opposite. I think that if you are seen to talk it up, then you show yourself as being out of touch. And that is of course the kind of betch noir of all politicians as being out of touch. But actually, you're in touch. I agree. Yes, that's also my point. And I think that that is where the solution needs to be is to find a kind of way of grinding past that what feels like a sort of an entrenched attitude towards politicians being successful. And perhaps, as you say, Nigel Farage, or movies like that, is a symptom of that problem. It's that I think there's a lot of people who feel the same way as Ash and wish that it was a bit more aspirational wishes, a bit more look forward to by looking backwards, looking at our heritage and looking at our skills and abilities to be able to create a culture where the luxury industry has a place. And I think that culture is really important in the sense of, look at James Bond, for example, another great exporter, Vars. But the whole character is created through his sub-arrow suits, the Wiscity Dricks, the wine that he has knowledge of, or all these sorts of fecalacy drugs. And as a character's great example, because if we're honest, there can't be many of us men, young guys who are at some point in your life hasn't thought, you know, "I'd love to be James Bond." And it's not so much because, okay, Mark would be a film sub, but a lot of me is just that character when you read the book, where you watch one of the films, what's been consistent through that character's life is they're always stylish. That's good taste. It looks far good taste. Are you gonna be the next James Bond? Yeah. I think we talked about James Bond the other day. First, we're not rising to government. I always sit under your bush. I have a dead end. That's the right phrase. I'm not sure where you're going. Where you're going. I think I've been noticing the side of you. I had the In Fleming's office in the old album, which was just the coolest thing ever. And true British government, I walked past it, it said the Fleming Room, and it was a storage room for chairs and broken overhead projectors. I said, "We've got to use the Fleming Room. They didn't want me to use it. They had a whole idea of promoting it, and I want to have an astronaut and an astronaut sign at James Bond's celebration. No one really supported me doing it, and I just thought you're missing such an important trick here." The thing about James Bond, which is really interesting, people forget, which is why what we're talking about is so important politically in terms of sort of our nation's direction, is that the actors who played James Bond weren't tops, Sean Connery was a Glasgow milkman, wasn't it? And Roger Moore had a raised eyebrow in all the rest of it. But Daniel Craig and so on, these are not, you may say, public schoolboy types. And that's actually quite important because these characters are becoming aspirational characters with all their style as suits and Don Prennion and all that sort of stuff. That's, for me, a very important element of James Bond that people forget about, which is everyone can have that style in these aspirational characters. Played by people who have achieved aspiration. And Fleming himself was a very interesting character and says that he had great taste, but he would sort of plug these brands, unnecessarily. I mean, he would just drop in florists or-- Well, before you were made to do such things. Yes, exactly. Because I think he probably saw that there was a purpose in doing that. And there was a good thing to do. And, you know, actually, funnily enough, one of the things he did when he was in naval intelligence was, there were Nazi officers when they were captured who were sort of taken to place in the countryside, and, you know, all sorts of ghastly things happen to them. He decided that it was much more of an invino Veritas approach. And he would take them out to-- You know, some of the clubs. Some of the clubs on the Strasbourg and get the drive-wise to Savo-Roe and have a suit made. And they were like, oh, this is rather nice. They spilled all the beans. That's just the cracking of the English. So Savo-Roe, I think, has saved a lot of lives. Yeah. I'm not surprised about that. So you were saying about how much this was worth to the niche. I think you're right. I know internationally it's a $1.5 trillion industry, which, I mean, that is not small fry. And as you mentioned, you got Bernalano, who was the richest man in the world at one point, but then also the people who own caring, Richemont, you know, Elvin is not a one-off. No, this is a huge thing. And it goes very, very wide and deep. And when we talk about luxury, particularly in the sense of quality time and quality life and promoting Britishness and exports around the world, you've got everything from it. You've got all the products that D'Ageo do. It's not just as we were talking about Savo-Roe, German Street. Through those industries, the high-end shops, the restaurants, the hotels, all of these quality luck, what we call luxury products, the number of employees and the supply lines, though, because they don't live in a vacuum on their own. Because it was about half a million people who were in the world. But half a million people pretty much directly. If you then take in the indirect employment that goes with that, it is a huge industry. I mean, arguably the whole hospitality industry is part of our luxury industry. Yes. Luxury of time. You know, you are talking very, very big numbers and a very, very key part of what makes the UK the UK. And what people buy into the UK around the world. So we should be much more upfront about this is something that we are proud of and it's absolutely at the heart of our soft power internationally as well. That makes us a lot of money and it plus lots of people. Absolutely. We say it's not a nice to have. It's 80 billion years. I think it's actually 80 billion. Yeah. But that isn't. That's just directly in people who are making this. Yeah, that's easy to tell. And choosing all the rest of it. It's enormous. So to think of it in an embarrassed way as sort of something over here for sort of foreign tourists is totally wrong. Yeah. It's an integral component of our economy. And if, again, looking to the future, that's where people are going to want to spend money and that's where we can compete. And so as a business person, that's where you should invest. Not only compete, this is where we lead. But precisely. But I mean, you know, it's our own area. Yeah. And it should be much bigger. Yeah. Stuffed the French, we can beat them. Well, we always have in the past. Yes, it quite. Now, if you travel with any regularity and I suspect quite a few of you listening do, you'll know the slightly irritating ritual that happens every time you land somewhere new. The plane touches down. You switch your phone off airplane mode. And within about five seconds, your mobile provider politely informs you that using your mobile phone will now cost roughly the GDP of a small island nation. This is where salie comes in. Salie is an e-sim app that gives you instant internet access when you arrive in a new country without having to hunt down a local SIM card or rely on whatever questionable Wi-Fi happens to be floating around at the airport. You simply install it before you travel. Choose a data plan for your destination, as I did when recently flying to Los Angeles. And when you land, you're online immediately. It also comes with built-in security features like web protection and ad blocking. So you're browsing on a safer connection rather than relying on the occasionally dubious public networks you find in airports or hotels. In short, it's a rather elegant way to stay connected while traveling without the roaming fees. Download salie in the app store or by scanning the QR code on screen. Use code dispatch at checkout to get 15% of your first purchase. The details are in the podcast episode description box. Let's also talk about the way that politics, we've spoken about VAT, but the way politics is getting in the way of the luxury industry and the sense of allowing it to kind of flourish because I mentioned earlier business rates rent. The way in which London has become very expensive for these places to operate. And yet, it's only feasible for them. Because no wealthy sort of person in the UAE is going to go out to Gloucestershire to visit Emma's shirt factory. They want to get the shirts here in London. They don't want to go and pick their tweet up. Can I come in on that brief? There's actually a lot of people who do come and go to Bista Village. And they didn't even go into London. They go to coach from Heathrow and go straight up and do their discount shopping. Get going was an Atelier cluster like a Bista Village, but for bespoke, artisanal, quality luxury goods made by UK companies and do partnership. We've made one of the great French houses, like Chanel or whatever, who by the way, headquartered in London, not in Paris. It's a good example of why people want to be here. So those are the sorts of things that can actually happen that could be very powerful. And then you would get people flying in from the Gulf and going straight off to wherever it could be in Northamptonshire, where they would have an amazing cluster. And it's through clustering, you get these quality outcomes because you get the expertise and the skills that get developed, which we're very bad at developing. Yeah, and actually, as a good example, so I know in Northamptons, I'm ever seeing there's sometimes a visitor who will come to the UK and can do a tour of the key shoe manufacturers in Northamptons. He's the thing you can do. The flip side, though, and this comes back to the duty free shopping VAT issue, is I was with, not that long ago, somebody who was involved with the Bista Village Group, who was saying to me that Bista Village here had been the number one in the world. It was their best sales, best profits. It's now dropped to bottom. Because of the VAT issue. Because it's changed tourists coming. They're not coming in the same way they were. I think the Italian one now is the number one. And that's purely on the duty challenge. And it's unlikely that this government is going to be particularly sympathetic towards VAT changes for the election industry's benefit. I called the Chancellor the Interim. I heard a conversation with her. I said, why do you take VAT off to a shopping? She was like, no, we're not looking at that sort of thing. She got fucked across. And I think that's a mistake to be to take that view. Because really, you should be looking at every opportunity to create employment. And if you think of AI, it's going to be big. And it's going to disintermediate everyone. It's going to be problematic for so many industries. But actually, the one industry that will be left unquestionably is the concept of high-end quality. The spoke, human, human input, hand made, not computer made, automated. That's the whole point. This lovely suit I'm wearing. It's going to be the luxury that people will aspire to. More and more. And with hopefully more resources because technology will make our lives easier and cheaper. Yeah, I think so. It's going to get bigger and bigger. And the other thing with luxury is actually that very point. We'll be the human contact. You know, as AI develops and does more and more for us, people, particularly people at the high end, what they're going to crave is experience. Yes. They're going to crave human interaction and experience. And what these luxury goods tend to have in common, particularly bespoke goods, is you've got to have human attention. interaction. There's a human being involved in the craftsmanship in talking to you about what you need and developing it, and that experiential side of it is going to be valuable. Again, we have a real opportunity in the UK to be world leaders in this, because we have the reputation, and we've got the skill sets and the craftsmen to do it. I was speaking to Moe in the previous episode about this, so I saw that. He was saying that ultimately AI can't quite do the designs yet, the he can design. When I sort of pointed it out, that's an interesting boy that there's some longevity in that, he said, "Yeah, but also crucially AI can't apply tattoos to people." At some point, I haven't got a tattoo yet, but it's just a question of time. As Brandon says, the experience of going and having a suit made, talking to Taylor, there's a whole point. I shop a lot online, and we're all as online as in buying stuff. That's great, well done, fabulous. But it's the experience principle. The bespokeness to you through the dialogue that you have. People are judged by what they consume, actually, how you dress, what you spend your money on, all that sort of stuff. That experience of consuming is one of the things that really defines a person. That's why the luxury industry is so fascinating and so seductive because that principle of having something designed for you. I always remember my great grandfather, they call it a money out of some industrial revolution, he used to buy Rolls-Royce's in pairs and one convert, one to off top, whatever it is, and one hard top. The driver's seats would be bespoke to him, which is a wonderful thing. If you don't do any more, also a bit of a disaster, he probably has someone to drive him around. Just that whole principle of that creation of a car solely for you, makes me feel warm and cozy. It's a great thing. I haven't got my Rolls-Royce's in pairs anymore. We've had to make cutbacks, I think. But it's the aspect of storytelling, isn't it? Right. The other thing that you used to do up in the House of Lords and made presentations. One of the great speeches of our time. One of the great speeches of our dad. I advise all listeners, viewers, to look this up. It was in defence of cigars. Yes, it was. It was, actually. We've got another debate to start. Don't it? Don't it? It was speech but if you look at that speech, it is what I thought was so great about that. Apart from exactly what it was, it was a great exposition on quality of life. Yes. How in that power to make a personal decision about how you spend your time and how you interact with others. That's why it was so powerful. It was a brilliant speech. I said it to everybody. Thank you. We're aggregating our liberties and actually this political class attack on luxury. And freedom of choice and how you define yourself is at the core of I think people's dissatisfaction with the political establishment at the moment. This idea that you should live like this. You shouldn't make these sorts of choices. And freedom is about making bad choices as well as good choices. Absolutely. And to just tee you up on the speech was ultimately there is legislation going through that is largely focused on vapes, cigarettes, etc. But what's going to take a hit is the capacity for people to go to these perfectly legal, currently sampling lounges and cigar shops to sample cigars and enjoy them in the company of other people. And currently if you open a club or a hotel in central London, you would be mad to not have one of these because they are incredibly popular places for people because whether it's a special occasion or whether you're sort of more regular, enthusiast with cigars, people flock to these places in a way that they don't to whiskey bars. So if you set up a whiskey bar, that's actually quite challenging to keep going. But something like a cigar or sampling lounge, people just fill them. Well that's the hotel. I mean they're one of the peninsula. These ones in five-stop hotels. Or the Emory. Yeah exactly. They're fabulous places and they drive a huge amount of business. But I was very intrigued in researching for this speech. I went to talk to Foxes and Davidoffs for example, two two phenomenal stores. And they said tourists come in who don't smoke. Have you ever smoked a cigar in their lives? But they've read about and seen these shops and they want to experience meeting the Sahar kins or the staff of the counter at Foxes. I mean that's amazing that the driver of tourism for these sort of cultural institutions is so important. You touched on a good point which is a cigar for me is a way to spend time either in personal private contemplation in a world of mayhem or in the company of my friends. And I've got this cigar club in the village right of Wilkshire which is just sort of grown and grown. And we've got an annual dinner this Friday and it sounds a bit ridiculous but there's so very few other things that you can do like that that allow people to come together and talk in an environment like that. And I think again if you think of the post AI age what are we going to want to do more of? Have contemplated. A few minutes. A pleasure. We'll have time with our friends and an environment that allows us to relax and enjoy life and life's short. And the idea that we should ban these shops and cigars for future generations in a sensible way that people enjoying them. To me, strikes at the heart of the liberty of an English quite right for me. Another terrific speech. But crucially on top of that it's the problem it comes up against is this real reflex response of Opaul, you small violin stuff which is part of the reason why you ended up on a bus on Park Lane. You were. Hang on. That was something slightly different. But it's not. It is similar. Well, there is because he said he's sure. So we were talking. We were talking about Brandon and I about about our experiences of being a government minister and you know he's told to take his watch off and you know everything all your travel expenses are cut. So everyone thinks government ministers fly around the world. It's the first class concord and stuff. That's not the case. I mean I'm I feel economy more often but not which is fine. You know I'm there to do business of an art. I can't. It was an internal fight in India. When you land as a minister on the plane in a country they often send a group of armed guards on to take you off. It's all well they're cool. It's finally for in sort of seat 1A. I was just seeing that with how you treat your wife. Yes. No, that's the only one I'm being arrested for being drunk on for a rage. But it's just so I could see the sort of the two soldiers of machine guns and a chap and a peat cap behind starting at the front of the plane. When I was in right at the moment literally the back seat in between two random people and they were looking at me as the guards came close to the place eventually they stopped here and the moment it's him and the person next to me went you're being arrested mage. Actually I'm a VIP visitor. Didn't quite have the same you know projection and then the other time I I love what we did a big sort of summit in the Lanesborough Hotel with some Saudis investing in the UK again you know another country wanting to invest in this country loving the cigar lounge is loving hotels like the Lanesborough and we got rid of my car for budgetary constraints you know see a lot of men's didn't have cars I shared one with sort of five other ministers and so I come out and the Saudi ministers we like to lift back to your house in my car and it's when I've got a car I basically had to lie to embarrassed to say we don't have what we can't afford. So he went back and I saw the bus stopped outside the Lanesborough so I got on it because it goes to my house and so sadly with my case at which point the delegation came out of the Lanesborough and saw me sitting sort of with the wind all of the bus going home and they must have written what the hells happened to rule Britannia but unnecessary sort of penny pinching that made us feel good that we weren't spending the public money but actually we spend trillions of pounds terribly yes and a proper car you know to take a minister out from meeting like that frankly would have paid paid for itself. So is it penny pinching or is it again back to the whole PR? It's trying to get we careful so that we all you know that lack of - It's like working. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Another that goes back, when we first came in to, the context, when we came back into government in 2010, because of the financial crash, there was this push to reduce government expenditure. And I think the view, and I was about Benjiya for the first couple of years, that, but I remember that the view at the time from sort of number 10 and the team, was if we're gonna be reducing spend on a range of public area things, then the government's got to show it's doing its thing. So one of these David Cameron, he was a cut ministerial pay, which he got cut and never got reintroduced. They reduced the government car service, all of these things. But some of it, the idea was presentation that the government's cut in its cloth as well. And quite widely, I worked in a department where we reduced our department by about 40% in that period, improved our output, I would argue under here, with a good team. But then you get the flip side of that, and I can remember going down. I was the, I think I was the first government minister after 2010 when I came into as a minister, to privatise something at a profit. And I privatised the Fire Service College, which was down in the South West, walked on the nays. And I can remember going down there when we were doing the deal to do it. And we, the decision was we were going on the train, you go stay in the class obviously, because you, you, government car, we haven't got access to ones, go all that way and you don't go first. - Did you get the fire engine? - No, you could. (laughing) - No, I did not have the drive all the way. - With the lights, yeah. But of course that meant for three, whatever it was, hours on the train, you can't do any work. - Yeah. - Because it's all commercially sensitive information. So you basically, you lose six hours of work. - Yeah. - So it's done and say, it can be counterproductive. But again, you also, you know, with some of these things, and actually, don't want to point around the time and, you know, the smoking discussions going on the moment. I think plays into luxury as well, 'cause one of the, the best luxuries we have is not about expenditure. It's time. - Yeah, yeah. - And the thing with something, whether it's smoking or being outspent, is that time you can spend with friends, with colleagues, whether it's relaxing, discussing, you know, luxury isn't necessarily about what you spend, you know. Quality, sometimes about quality of life, and that's about time, or in a product. It doesn't have to be an expensive thing. product, it's just a product that you value that's got craftsmanship to it, that he's good for the use of that. That's the point. I wanted to follow one point about the government. So one of the things that annoyed me the most, and I saw it at first hand, and it's classic about how wrong politics is about the principle of luxury brand and the rigid projection, was we sold off our embassies. So the most powerful thing, literally in the world, are places like the embassy in Tokyo and the embassy in Paris and going there as a minister and doing a reception there. That makes money and businesses always said the most useful thing often they had was the ambassador's reception when they were purchases in the country, so they were trying to business in. But we kept selling them off and moving to flats above a news agency, near the airport and stuff, and it just drove me around the bend that for a small upfront, a few million quid for selling the property, you would lose hundreds of years of brand power. What I noticed, we did this in Bangkok, we sold this incredible embassy and moved to an department, a non-descript department, perfectly nice, but totally pointless compared to the projection, is how many of the Thai politicians said to me, "We're actually quite offended that you've deserted this wonderful building to move to a flat." What does it say about your view of us? Yes, I think so too. The backfiring of trying to be sort of down with the kids and penny-pinching and cost-cutting and all that sort of stuff and vanilla is significant. It costs us money, not to focus on the principles of the luxury projection of this great nation. I want to come back after Dominic's had the tattoo and just see the quality of luxury of Dominic's tattoo. What would it be for me? Maybe she said so, it might have been muvness. I love monogramming and branding, starting everything on my wallet, everything I've got Chris Sonner, I'm going into House of Lords. House of Lords actually is a great luxury. House of Lords is a great luxury brand. I mean, the wrong word because it's not a luxury to have such an amazing institution in this country, but the principle of the House of Lords is always something that, again, we don't project a bit embarrassed about the House of Lords. And I've dare I say at the principle of hereditary peers who, sadly, we are ending in a few months. So the most democratic part? They are the only people in the House of Lords. Because they also work the hardest. They do all the work. And they have so much. Absolutely. But the principle of the hereditary peer is also a massive projection of Britishness and to think that it's sort of a good idea to get rid of them for lots of different reasons, but actually for the principle of that in itself is something I've been thinking about. No, I quite agree. I think going back to your point about the luxury of time, I think what people have been saying is that brands and so forth, everyone's targeting his headspace because there's so little of it nowadays. And fortunately, people are sensible enough to listen to the luxury dispatch every now and again when they have some headspace. They should. They should. Absolutely. The point is that we don't have a world anymore where the capacity to sort of sit down and read a book for an hour or so past the weekend or whatever, everybody's too busy. And so having those moments, I think, is that much more important. One other thing I wanted to touch on was you had a stint as Lord Chancellor. Yes. A great Lord. Yes, but a very particular time in our nation's history. So speaking of history. You witnessed it. You were at the very center of it because I do I get to write the Lord Chancellor is the person who makes the monarch, the monarch at the time of the accession more arguably. For some, more importantly, I made Dominic. Yes, you did. Well, that was a huge move. That's very hard to say. I like to think it ranks up. It ranks up. But the succession. Yeah, I still remember obviously my office in the MOJ and the Lord Chancellor signs the certificate for the peers. And Dominic's one came in. I took great pleasure in signing it with a very nice pen and sending you a photo. Thank you. That was just a. It really does. I'm debating whether to just put the income but no, it's. Yeah, I had this very surreal and very special experience of it. Yeah, I was the Lord Chancellor for the accession meeting. Again, a really good example of the world was fascinating because this is something that the big session had never been on TV before because obviously when her Majesty had come in, it was pre-live TV and things like that. So much misty. Much misty. Much misty. And it was a heart-breaking period, surreal experience. So we had the accession meeting. It's in two parts. And yeah, as Lord Chancellor, I was the member of the government who had to sign the paper for his Majesty. One of the things that has always stuck with me and I hadn't given a lot of thought to it before, Hammers, we had been planning in one way or another for that sad occurrence in the sense of losing her Majesty. As a country, for actually a very long time, the security arrangements, they don't happen overnight. You know, for many, many years, ministers, civil servants have put a lot of time and effort because the reality is that the funeral, we had, I think, more world leaders in the UK than pretty much at any point for decades. So it's a big security effort. And I've spent a few years both in the local government department and the home office in various meetings over 10 years and even people in the previous Labour government, I'm the attorney, but it would have had some of those meetings just because you've got to be prepared for these things. So I was quite surprised when at the accession meeting, we signed the documents and I just would have assumed, with all those years of preparation that somebody would have spoken to a great British pen making brand called my Stuart Yard, a led something, somebody, to produce half a dozen pens that the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Lord Chancellor, the Archbishop of York, the Queen and the now Prince of Wales, the then Duke of Cambridge, obviously, were going to use and then the King himself, obviously. But no, because you think that eventually we'll go to a museum or to a charity or something, but no. And if you get there, the pens we are given to you as were big disposable counting pens. And if anybody goes on YouTube, yeah, this is the equivalent of him showing our leaving and meeting in a bus. Yeah. And if anybody wants to go on YouTube and do a little search of the accession meeting, apart from seeing me sign the documents, what they will also see is he's majesty quite rightly had a view about the quality of pens and decided to use his own pen. I think it was a gift from Prince William. And a beautiful pen and he used a proper pen, but yeah, we were given big disposable counting pens, which I just thought was, I mean, in one way, absolutely quintessentially British. But in another way, I really wasted opportunity to have a great English pen maker do something that would be there in perpetuity. The eyes of the world upon you. So I think, I remember we signed the opportunity to sign various trade treaties. And I did one in Times Square. Again, it was a bire that snapped. And I had to get my own pen out, which had leaked. So the whole thing was, and then you were like the king. So that happened to the king in Hilsburg Castle. Yeah, it did. Not good. But I never, I never, I've never, what's it, because I've just been, you know, this thing was the first thing I did. I've been put in the House of Lords where you change your name. So you sign differently, Johnson, Langston, rather than Donald Johnson. So again, it's down to Steve, which is soon next day now. I think the crown prince of Bahrain or whatever. And it's put in front of me. And I realized I'd never actually signed my name. And I found myself, and I saw, because it's amazing, I've just seen that thing. I've just appointed this guy as minister. He can't even write his own name. It's really starting to go downhill. It's something that I must have been, even if he had been accession me. So I should remember being, I've never been more conscious in my life about my signature looking smart. Yeah. Because this document was there for a thousand years. And you know, one of the weird things in my family is my great, great, great grandkids. That document is there with our, my signature. So you suddenly become really conscious of getting the money. So where's the pen you could on you, the pen you signed? I haven't got it on me, but I have, I have to do it. I don't know. It's a separate way to a photo of the pen. Yes, you've got to send the photos of the iPhone shot as well. It's a great, yeah. Selfie with the pen. I think we need to pay a bit of a cut away. Yeah, it's a good way to cut away. Which I think brings us to discuss the solution to this. How do you see things improving as time goes on? What do you think needs to be done? I don't think there's an easy, simple fix because it's, and I, and I think Dominic in the first couple of minutes made the point. And I think it's the public don't want their politicians to look smart or support UK luxury products. I always had a view if I was knocking on somebody's door in my constituency or anywhere, I think people won't see their members of parliament being smart and looking professional. So I was never a supporter of going out and being able to shoot some flip flops and knocking on doors. Which some people I know have done. I also, so I personally, I don't know, you and a flip flop. But I came from, you know, I lost a fair bit of weight at the back end of government. Because I was big, I always had, I was always wanted to look relatively smart. So I went and had suits make, because I was very self-conscious in that sense. But it also gave me an appreciation of the quality and the craftsmanship that goes into that. And I think it just means, I think it's just going to be one of those things where more and more of us, opportunities like a podcast like this, people like Dominic, at every opportunity in yourself, just talking more about why these things are good to give the politicians more confidence around, and it's at two levels. And I was around, not being afraid to, yes, I'm wearing a smart suit, a smart outfit dress, whatever. And I'm proud of the fact that that is British and that's part of our soft power. But also understanding why these industries are so important to the UK economy. You know, and it's not just always about the high-end stuff. I was at the Goodwood Revival. Fantastic. Great place. Great, great British event. It's the, I think it's the biggest vintage festival in the world. It's brilliant, and I met there, the guys who own and run a company called Private Wire. They used to have a shopping, Davis Street, here in Manchester. Great products, great codes. I bought a few things for them and I just went on the stand to have a look at a jacket. You know, they were telling me they were really interested in actually supplying public service. You know, some of the military with them and they made that kind of quality product. They couldn't even work out how to engage with government. Yeah, yeah. And how to talk to the government about how an a British producer produced these kind of high quality products for them. So I think that the other side of this is not just about high-end expensive stuff. It's just about promoting British quality products and the government putting things in place to support. Whether it's through procurement, it's obviously got to be cost effective, but producers know that. So that's not that's not such a challenge. But procurement has got to be cost effective, but also around the whether it's the duty on shopping, whether it's business rates and how we do that for for UK industry. But just giving that support, being seen to give public support and open support to good British craftsmanship that's part of our soft power and part of what creates employment in the UK in a in an industry and a skill set. The AI can't replicate. Yeah, yeah. So we do have an opportunity to have a unique position in the world with this. There should be a sort of portfolio in government. Do you think luxury minister? Well, there probably is. They just don't do it right. Yeah, yeah. And you know, the prime minister should drive around and I was thinking for a drive around the Range Rover, but he should be sponsored, sports, you know, wearing great British clothes as should all the government. And I think it's about, you know, I think we make it up to say we think that it's a aspiration and wanting to live a great life and and wonderful, having wonderful things around you as somehow snobbish, but it's not. Yeah, it's actually human. Yeah. So everyone wants. We want it and doesn't have to be as expensive as Brandon rightly said. And politics has gone through a sort of 30 year cycle post that should where, you know, every politician has to be sort of down with the kids and pretending that they're not, you know, wanting to be in either a leader position or looking good or whatever it is. I think that's that's dented confidence in politics. And we should be ourselves, be authentic. I mean, I love my life and I like projecting it, but I still sometimes sort of think should I be doing this and my being misconceived. Relatives, I don't think I am. I think I either are. To being authentic in who you are and aspiring to luxury in the principles of what Britain makes is actually a patriotic duty of politicians, not something that we should be adverse to. And Brandon touched on some things that the politics and the political establishment can do, which is one be proud of our luxury industry. It's gigantic and points half a million people and starts thinking of creative ways to make it a success. clusters, satellites, apprenticeships and skills. How tax is used to promote the industry, because it'll all come back to us. Because every single luxury export, you know, the Premier League, downtown Abi, private schools, luxury goods, Savile Row, German Street, whatever it is, it all comes back to people having a better view of Britain, and it makes Britain more of an aspirational principle in itself. - Quite right. And I think it also binds us together in a common culture as well. It's a very, very good point. - And it's an old culture, you know, the image of how the world sees us is very much tied into this world. And well, with we three luxuteers taking on the luxury, that's a great portfolio. - Well, next time I want, I think I've got an opposition spokesman for luxury. I know, I'll ask Ken, if she'll give me that one. - I think that's a great idea. - She might. Yes. And so, well, with that in mind, Gents, thank you so much for coming down. I think we've made a dent in the issue at hand. - Has it been with Brad? - Yes, so, Lord Johnson and Sir Brandon, thank you very, very much. - Thank you very much. - Tom, great. - Thank you. - We've spent time with you. I remain Tom Chamberlain, and this has been the luxury dispatch. The podcast that reveals how the world of luxury is shaped not only by taste and craftsmanship, but by influence, policy, and power. My thanks to Lord Johnson and Sir Brandon for helping us navigate the intersection of government, global reputation, and the industries that so often define how a nation presents itself to the world. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, please do like, subscribe, and leave a comment. We read everyone. You can agree or disagree, challenge what you've heard or suggest the messages of luxury like us to step into next. Thank you for listening, and as ever, happy dressing and God save the king.