The Pivot To Video: What Podcasts Can Learn From The Press

Hello, welcome to the Media Club. I'm Matt Degen. In the club today we're live at the Pokkarshow to ask the biggest question facing the sector. How to switch on video and not make mistakes if you work in pressure, but for me with the pivot to video in the 2010s, when all national newspaper titles experimented with costly adaptations where some thrived and some went out of business. So we thought we'd bring along some club members to warn of what might be. All that plus or at the area awards at the roundhouse and in the audio network media quiz we're playing the weakest podcasting. That's all coming up in the Media Club supported by audio network. Come on in. So welcome to the Media Club. Joining me are three club members who are no stranger to the pivot to video. Thomas Curry has had a production development at BBC Studios Audio and no stranger to the podcast show either. It's customary at the Media Club to announce a new member, someone who's had a great week. So who would you like to pick? It's quite self-serving this week. Excellent. I'm going to bring Roman Mars with me. We just launched a history of the USA in 100 objects. The first episode came out on Monday and it's so good. It's so much fun. Well, he can definitely join and have great stories to tell. Also, joining us is Charlotte Tobit, UK editor of Preskisette and someone reporting on the video exploits of Fleet Street. Who would you like to have in the club this week? I'm going to bring a journalist called Kormak Kieho who has just succeeded in having a live case against him. Throw now. It was also against the local news that's a publisher at Mill Media. There was a case individually against him and a case against the publisher as well and a judge called this an abusive process and basically it's kind of victory for public interest journalism that they fought it in the court and now hopefully just so they can get their costs back. But yeah, that was great news this week. Well, he can definitely celebrate with us in the club. Also, joining us is the former media editor of the Guardian and our founder of the local news outlet London Centric with two all-well prize nominations under your belts. Welcome to Mars and Hollywood. I'm nominating James Murdoch because he's been splashing cash around buying up bits of vox and it's just nice to know that someone still sees some future in something resembling the media. So that's just nice to see some. Yeah, it's interesting. He's bought New York Magazine, which his dad previously owned. Everything kind of comes full circle, doesn't it, in the media? He's also the bits that he hasn't bought or about as telling as the rest of it. I'd be a bit worried if I was at those publications. Yeah, so the vox media kind of podcast network and the magazine with him and like espionation and some other titles have been sort of shoved aside. Yeah, you wouldn't be feeling very loved right now, would you? You wouldn't. Well, before we get started, a big thank you to Audio Network who are hosting us here at Podcast Show. Audio Network, a global music publisher specialising in making music for content. So whatever production you're working on, Audio Network will have the perfect tracks for you and us actually as you'll discover later on. We'll be back in a sec. So we've been here before. Podcasting's pivot to video has echoes of what the press went through in the 2010s. But what can we learn from that time? Jim, you're at Buzzfeed, then at the Guardian at the time of the great pivot. What are your memories of such a moment? My memory, so I'm the sort of most printing person on this group today and I was at Buzzfeed, but I was very much on the website of Buzzfeed. We didn't really, we were still trying to go via on Twitter and Facebook with text. And then suddenly we were told we had to do loads of video mainly because Facebook was just chucking money at it. I mean, the budgets were crazy. I remember Facebook spending hundreds of thousands setting up me interviewing the Prime Minister in sort of a rig that was less of custom, unbelievable amounts of money. And we burnt through so much and got so few actual viewers that were engaging with it. And that's one of those things that you sort of look back on and go. It was probably heading in the right direction, but we were just doing it the wrong way and way too expensively. Do you think of yourself being dragged to video? Or are you quite excited actually that this is the future for journalism? We were at a load of text-based millennials got what's going on? Why is everyone wanting video? And then you had the other side of Buzzfeed, which was the fun bit which people actually enjoyed rather than as self-important news people, which was doing all the try guys stuff in the states. And then they couldn't hold their stuff because everyone was going off and going solo because they realized, well, why am I getting a payroll salary to do this? So I just remember everything thing like, right, we've just cracked how to go viral with words and pictures and stuff like that. And suddenly the videos come along, but there's not the market for it. And we're just sort of throwing the company up in the air at the Wins of Facebook. Charlotte, you're working a local newspaper in 2014, which were where were you at? Yes, like 2014 to 2017, I was at the sorry advertiser. And I would carry that kind of where you dragged or ran into it. I would say we were kind of dragged into it, but a lot of the newsroom was kind of dragged into digital altogether, to be honest. But so my personal memory of it is being told to push Facebook live very hard. And like anything that we'd leave the newsroom for practically, we had to go live on Facebook. And this did get, you know, some good engagement in the comments and stuff. The trouble is it wasn't always good engagement. And it was like the first time that we were really seeing kind of the negative reaction from some readers, which has definitely persisted in social media. It can be quite close to touch it now. But there were definitely like events, for example, like a traveler encampment, I remember one of my colleagues going live and they don't want a journalist there anyway, but we're told you have to go live. And that ended up having to kind of be, you know, finished early, but it was quite an unpleasant atmosphere. And, you know, usually if you're just a journalist and you go down to a scene, you can just leave quietly if it's not good. But that was all going well. So yeah. And something like that, in terms of like national newspapers, he was doing a good job back then. I think there was a real tension and it feels like that's the kind of thing that we're thinking about as forecasting companies at the moment between news publishers and magazines that wanted as much reach and as much audience as possible so that they could sell other things, other people's products to those versus a group of publications that maybe thought we'll get a slightly smaller audience and sell ourselves like we are the product. And I feel like that's kind of the tension that's being played out at the moment. So video is just one element of it, but broadly speaking, it's like, do we go for as many people as possible and try and do an ad model or do we keep the audience a little bit smaller and do something kind of a subscription space? Maybe that's oversimplifying it, but that I think was being played out at various different publications kind of nationally. Jim, it's got an interesting that idea of broad versus narrow. When you run a local news publication and proceed the Guardian, you're writing a cover for the mass market. Are you super serving an audience? Do you want it to be broad? Do you want it to be narrow? I mean, if there's any coherence to the plan of trying to do it London century, it can't have a word out yet. So I run a really small local newsletter in London that's taken off quite rapidly and so there's about 5,000 paying subscribers who get a digest and original investigative news. They don't get that much, but it's quite in depth. And that's a sort of real community thing. And then as an experiment, I've sort of done what every panicked person in their late 30s should do and hired a young 20 something to tell me what's actually going on. And they're doing lots of really great viral video clips for me, you know, a day a week. And what's odd with that is it's creating massive reach. I'm suddenly getting awareness for stories and it's bringing in absolutely no revenue. It's bringing in absolutely barely any more subscribers for the paid product that actually funds everything and it's taking up a vast amount of time. So I'm the sort of one that going on this panel going, I've got my nice print little thing online, print equivalent as a newsletter. But I accept that that's only going to have an e-science, but it lets me do what I want. And then the enormous time sink of doing video and the resources it requires is driving me nuts. So you influence much, obviously, follow the media, you know how it's changed. Do you think back to your Buzzfeed days and think, am I replicating this? Is this the evolution of that? I'm always stealing every good idea that we had, but the evolution of the Buzzfeed thing and the reason that people used to work there now running lots of the old media publications is because it was basically really focused on what to the audience want and what will they actually respond to. And I know Buzzfeed is basically falling off the internet at the moment, was just sold in a fire sale. It's hard to remember when we had an office at Oxford Circus and we're spending millions of pounds on free oysters for lunch. But it was incredible. I'm so grateful to all the venture capitalists who sunk all that money. It was the most incredibly fun time to burn through that money. but I would never, but it's also taught me like with my own self-funded business to never spend. Like there is no snack wall for my employees and there never will be. I'm just putting it away to borrow at home. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah. I mean, since you were talking about other companies, we mentioned Fox Media earlier. Charlotte, they went into that space and they came out of it early. What was that journey like? So I think they're just one example. You know, it was like 20, what, 2016, 2017? A lot of this is happening. And then by early 2018, lots of them, including Fox Media, had laid off a load of people. And also that was after initially laying off a load of people in order to fund, like doing different stuff in order to fund the video stuff. And the reason it all happened so quickly is essentially, you know, we talked a bit about Facebook already. It was largely based on Facebook, saying this is what people want. And then it came out that in fact, those metrics had largely been inflated quite significantly. And it wasn't really what audiences wanted. And even if they did wanted, did they want news video? So in terms of news publishers doing it, that's kind of not the same thing as just wanting other video. So the audiences weren't there. Revenue never followed. So even the people that, you know, kind of like Jim was saying, they were doing like good video. But it wasn't actually what people wanted. I mean, influencer platforms is a story that has run through this kind of for the last 20 years. I was thinking about, do you remember now this? Yeah, they, as far as I remember it, they actually got rid of their website entirely and decided that they were going to deliver news and politics and culture. They had all these various different imprints. They were only going to distribute on Vine. Do you remember one that was around? Vine and Facebook and a couple of other places. And they reached enormous numbers of audience very, very quickly. I remember them putting out press releases, touting billions of views, which now maybe seems a bit quaint, but at the time it was like, how are they doing this? And then of course in 2018, Facebook decides to change its algorithm and actually we're not going to prioritize news publishers anymore. We're going to focus on friendships and meaningful connections between people. And the company fell apart almost overnight. And the, it's not to say that I think that will necessarily happen this time, but and bear with me because it might seem a bit far-fetched. But the thing that interests me is Facebook obviously loses a court case earlier this year that their algorithm, I think I'm right in saying, is responsible for their harms to well-being for an individual. If those court cases stack up, then you layer on top social media bands that are happening in Australia because governments and parents around the world that realising actually this is a bit dangerous. If companies like YouTube, which I think was also implicated in that court case, decide that actually it's less of a headache for them to adjust their algorithm in some way, I'm not saying it's definitely going to happen. I just think it's something that we should be paying attention to. And as we think about how to build business models as media companies, yes, run a video, but also think about how reliant you are on the platform and what changes could become. All this crossover really well with, you know, for newspapers and direct audience rather than audience to Google or through social. I'm podcasting is kind of unique in the content creators historically have created their shows. RSS feed goes to all the destinations. They pull it up, takes from you at your host, everyone was happy. Now we're in a situation where you have a slightly different version for Spotify. You have an audio video choice in Apple, YouTube, you're doing something else. Maybe we aren't so reliant like Facebook was, but this kind of, well, what's your own platform that you want you want to send consumers to? Because Charlotte is quite tempting to build in other places on other platforms. They've done the work, they've put the money into it. What should podcasts has been thinking about where they own the connections to their audience? Yeah, I guess so and difference with podcasts is even when they're on other platforms, certainly audio. Like we've always said, it feels like a more direct connection because they're directly in your ear. See, there is that benefit. But also, I think a lot of podcasts are kind of making the most of sub-stack and stuff now and adding a newsletter element. Obviously, again, that is kind of an intermediary and there is a risk that Gmail, for example, you know, doing more AI summaries of your email. So actually, could that be bad for newsletters? But currently, it's still OK. And I think that's one way to just have that direct connection again. To be honest, there's something that kind of all news publishers are currently grappling with and panicking about as Google traffic is seriously plummeting kind of down by like a third in two years or something over, you know, over huge network of publishers. And so there isn't like one easy answer. And I think there's a risk of being too reliant and excited on newsletters as one of the solutions, but definitely one of them. And then just being on as many platforms, but just not not feeling like you have to be on every platform. You've got to work out which platforms are right for your audience. So for example, it might just be the Instagram's perfect audience. And that is OK to use the platforms and build your audience on there. It's just when that's too much of your revenue and your monetization in particular, then that's a risk. So don't put all your balls in one court. Jim, do you worry about AI summarising your newsletter for your audience? You know what? If I started worrying about everything that was coming down the track, I don't think I'd ever get anything out. Honestly, my day today is normally, can I just get another story out that hits hits well? But what I do is every piece is original reporting, hopefully telling you something entertaining, intriguing, or new about London. And what I'm finding is that AI for that, running it sort of, oh, you're going to get swamped by a load of like emails that frankly, I can't even tell if that AI generated a knot. And now I'm so skeptical that I can't even, I now get nervous when reading some things going, am I just reading some AI slopp or not? And that's a bad thing. Whereas mine is still littered with lots of typos and is authentically human. So you can tell that that's, and you can, you know, you can see that we've been out there on the ground, you can see that. So that's good for me. And I'm hoping that whatever the format ends up being, whether in three years, I'm on a panel here talking about how we're just watching on meta-glasses and beaming it into our brains or whatever, that the stories will get through. We just have to keep finding the format. I mean, the interesting kind of comparison with podcasters, you run a subscription business. Primarily, you want people to pay money on your own platform. And what are the third party platforms? Like, I'm sure lots of people are talking about bringing newsletters together and kind of re-aggregating them. Is that a way to make money or are you worried that takes it away from what you own? I'm very protective of what I own and what I've built. And I quite like the fact that at the moment I have enough people putting trust in me and a very small team to go and find things that will interest them. And I'm very lucky. I also don't think that's a model that almost, I think, everything's gone right with a lot of luck for what I've been trying to do. And I think the idea that anyone can just dive in, this has been in a big city with a fair wind in a right moment with a lot of luck and a lot of hard work. It's just about worked for two or three people size business. Like, this is not going to be a thing that the really big legacy places will be able to sustain themselves off. Tom, if you think about the platform, do a lot of podcastes have built their podcast businesses on Apple and Spotify, they've created their audiences. Is that going to change? Or actually, do you have to double down on that, whether you like it or not? One of the things that is so interesting talking with Shala and Jim is that people discuss podcasting as if it's different from literally any other media business. I actually don't think that's the case. So in the same way that you see some of these examples are the obvious ones, but the New York Times or SEME4 or People Inc. really diversifying so that yes, they have a text product or a magazine or a web product, but they're also doing live events and subscriptions and maybe licensing deals. Maybe they have products or merchandise. I actually don't think you should really think of podcasting and audio is different from any of those other media businesses. And to Jim's point, I think the thing that we're seeing happening at the moment is a kind of middle being taken out of podcasting where really small operations who are really focused and have a really specific audience, those are thriving and bigger organisations that have the kind of structure and the ability to monetize content. That sounds like a really vampiric way of thinking about it, but genuinely, that they can do the live event, that they can do the book, that they can do, you know, merch as and when it feels relevant. I think that's what's happening in podcasting at the moment. When we talk to people about video, I find that new shows pretty much are building video first because they've got no legacy. They've got existing shows that might have had some quite good success on audio, having to change their production process quite a bit. And they sort of satisfy the desires of Apple and Spotify and YouTube. It's difficult whether you're a established OG podcast or you're coming to it fresh. It's very different. product. Yeah, it's not that I think video is not something that people should think about very seriously and chase after. There is clearly an audience there. The only thing that interests me is what is the right area of focus for your show specifically. If you have a choice hypothetically between putting resource into visualizing and existing audio program versus really thinking about what the live event strategy for that show is maybe start there and come to video later. Just think about if you only have a limited amount of time, energy, resource, where is that best spent. Video is absolutely one of those channels that is it the right channel for every single show as the first choice. That's just something that I think we've been thinking about a lot with all of our programs. I mean, Charlotte, when we think about, we talked about video newspapers and sending you to do a Facebook live. I mean, news has learned quite a lot of video skill. I look at News UK, their YouTube channels are hugely successful part of their business now and they're pushing their journalism into that direction. It's quite easy to push against video. Is it something that people actually more aggressively should we think applying their own skills to doing that well because that is what the platform and what the public are after? So I don't know if I'm kind of still a lullaby, but Presca's at the podcast is still audio only. Maybe it shouldn't be now. Anyway, so I guess I'm kind of similar to Thomas an advocate of not just rushing into it if you're not 100% sure that your audience wants it or needs it. But it's funny that you mentioned News UK because one of my examples of an interesting news publisher doing something right now is the Sun and it's been maybe about 18 months or just over a year since they really revamped their video team and invested a load into it. I got a new director of video, like, hard new roles. But what's interesting for me is that what's working is that the more niche stuff they're doing. So you think of publishers like the Sun and you think they're trying to reach everyone with big news stories and big stuff stories and all of that. But actually it's the kind of smaller little defence franchises and parenting and things like that. So actually, but again, it's probably not that new. It's just a new way of doing it because newspapers always had these different sections. So it's just a different way of viewing it and now it's evolved. But I do think that, yeah, a lot of them have invested a lot into that. It is showing, I guess, we'll find out in a year or two if they keep doing it. What does it work? Tim, what should podcasters learn from News UK's Pivot to Video? It's a long Pivot to Video. Oh, the long Pivot. I mean, also the fact that we're just talking about News UK's Pivot to Video is weird because it turns out that people just didn't want News a lot of the time. We were, why Buzzfeed in 2015 was putting me on a stage interviewing David Cameron and thinking, "You thought he was just going to watch a half hour interview with the Prime Minister?" It's like, "Clearly, that was mental." It was very fun to do. But what were we doing? Also, we're talking a lot about video of a whole podcast here, whereas basically, the short video clip is the default chunk of content. No one forwards an audio clip into a WhatsApp group chat. No one sticks that on there. I don't even know where people share content. There's anyone actually share content who's normal now that isn't a brand. But when the little video clip is basically the default unit of internet content, if you're not making that, you're not going to end up there. The problem is, then, how many people here will have podcasts? We feel like, "Oh, yeah, I know. They were discussing that. They're like, "You realise you haven't actually listened to episode in months." But you feel, "Oh, yeah, no, because I know they were talking about that." You don't know that. You just watched the 30-second clip, like everyone else, that was doing the rounds. That's a really weird place to be in. You have this weird cultural salience for your product. And then, absolutely no. Well, not absolutely no, but not an enormous number of actual engaged listeners and not an enormous number of people paying you or earning you anything. I have not nailed short from video, but I put my TikTok earnings public the other day because it was just, I think I was just trying to tidy the software on my board. But it was one point, well, then press because I had linked to it and then it blew up a bit, so she didn't really mean to. But it was something like 1.5 million views. Obviously, all views are rubbish, so let's say that maybe a tenth of those are real humans. And then, it earned £150. It's like, that's great. I've spent several hundred pounds making all of these. They've taken half a day and then I'm earning a fraction of that back. And I'm not even sure if it's sending anyone back to my own product. So what's what's any of this? Why are you doing it then? That's quite fun. Quite interesting. And I tell you why I'm doing it as an investigative journalist. It's reached that's bringing in sources and that's not something I ever expected. I think there's also something about what are the objectives of all these things. So it isn't always money. It can be audience, it can be contacts. These things can do different jobs. Okay. My thanks to Jim, Charlotte and Thomas. In a moment, we're on the winners run at the Ares. We'll see you there. [Applause] [Music] Okay. The part two is the Audio Academy's Awards, the Ares this week, where most of the radio industry celebrates the best output of the year. And our coverage is brought to you in partnership with RadioX experts, the audio agency specialist, bringing you a sound perspective. You can check out their work in the show notes. Best station went to the hits. And I caught up with some of the other winners. Congratulations to the radio team. [Applause] It has been quite a nice for you. Just one station of the year. But there's a few awards tonight, too. A huge shout out to our news team tonight. I mean, they've, like, news and commercial radio are so important and what they've done and what they've achieved tonight is phenomenal. I can't be proud of those guys this evening. And these guys, wow, it's I'm button. I'm not going to lie I'm button. It's been a big year for the station lots of changes, but you must be proud with the output and the win. Yeah, I mean, these guys, as everyone does in this industry, works tirelessly because we all, we all want you to work in this as kids didn't we? And we've all achieved that. And I think what these guys and our teams across in our other broadcast centers do, day in day out is, is phenomenal. And I can't be proud of them tonight. And, like, the future of heat through radio, we really hope, you know, our ambition is to become the UK's biggest pop station. And I'm so proud of what they've achieved tonight. But this is absolutely for them because they work tirelessly every day for it. James, I'm breakfast center, a hit. Yeah. You must be chuffed with this. Amazing. It's like, yeah, it's incredible, isn't it? I feel like we, we often feel like we're the underdog in the industry, but we are. We're pushing really hard and we are coming for these listeners, 100%. And, like, we do so much work. It's not just about playing hits and, like, having a little chat in between. We are constantly working on incredible documentaries. We're trying to make a difference in our listeners lives. We're talking about things that are the commercial radio stations just wouldn't go anywhere near. And I feel that we get that response back from our listeners. We are definitely making a difference. And I saw one of your posts talking about text you got from a listener this week. Yeah, we were talking about being gay and we had a message from a mother of a trans son. And he basically had never heard mainstream media talking about queer issues before or on a breakfast show. And it's the airbade, a big difference. I never had that growing up. So, yeah, it's cool. What's up everyone? Congratulations. Thank you. Trevor Nelson, just one special recognition award at the Ares. Bit of a surprise. Mate, that was. I had no idea. I mean, no idea. It's happened to me years ago once and I'm just so grateful. I mean, I've done 30 years at the B 14 total as a broadcaster. I mean, I know I only look about 25. And I live for this. I absolutely live for this. I love radio. And it's just amazing. When you walked into Kiss with your records, what were that person think about this moment? No way. I'm serious. I'm not even exaggerating. People say to me all the time, "So, did you dream of being on radio one, radio two?" I'm a kid from Hackley. We didn't dream. I dreamt of having a job. The only thing I loved was music. That's the only thing I was naturally into, like music. So, to me, this sort of thing is just a bonus. I only live in that playing music. That'll do me. Getting awards is. I mean, this means a lot. It means a lot. There's not many people who have done commercial radio, radio one, one extra, now radio two. That's quite a journey. What's it like being on radio two in the old news? Who would have given it to that? I think that says something about where the world's changed. The music's changed. I think there's a few things going on here. I think that, for me, as a broadcaster, there was a time I was on one extra. I was on radio one and ready to it the same time. And it meant that I was talking to someone's kid, then talking to the dad, and then talking to maybe the granddad, all in the same week. And I think you learn. You learn to skill art of connecting with your audience, even though you can't see them. And I'd like to think that that's one thing I've become better at, over the years, just connecting with the audience and making, and I'm not a presenter, I'm just a DJ. You know, I don't present, I sort of just find stuff. I think you can call yourself a presenter now. Wow. You've managed it. Congratulations on your awards. I'd seriously appreciate this award. Honestly, what a surprise. Thank you very much. I'm Michel Asain. Congratulations, Radio Times, a moment of the year. I love the award to win. It is a really special award to win, because it's the listeners, it's the public, so it really, really means a lot to me, and especially because my podcast is so young, we haven't even been going for a year, so it really feels a very special moment to have this. Have you settled in at Bloomberg? I have. It has been a whole new journey of every kind, new workplace, new team, new vibe, and of course, massive change in going from live radio into podcasting. But I'm loving being able to really go deep into one conversation. I feel like it's the right moment for me, and it's where so much of my industry is going. So I'm just like, happily riding the wave. So how do you feel in that interview? How do you think it was going? How do you think when he said what's in the clip? Listen, love, you're trying ever so hard. I was asking him about Russia, and I don't think he liked it very much. But look, I like to think I have my own way of, you know, not beating people up, and just like trying to do the best I can to really delve into what they think and why they think it. So I guess that was an example of it, because talking about Russia and his. -Links. -Links on it. -Yes. -Just, you know, took us into territory that's quite important for a future prime minister, maybe. -Well, congratulations. -Thank you so much. Johnny Kanagasorium from BBC Sounds. -Yeah. -Congratulations, audio brand of the year. That must be a nice one to have. Yeah, it's great. I mean, in truth, like, it is an award for so many other people. Because when you're a platform, you're only as good as your content, all the people who make the product, all of the live radio stations and their schedules, and so it is a massive win for the whole BBC, because the whole BBC goes into the platform. But that being said, and maybe I should have given them more of a specific shout out in the speech. The teams behind BBC Sounds, who, Jonno, who you know really well, you know, Marshalls, we work every day really, really hard. Curation, discovery, growth, content strategy, working with different commissioners, building the relationships that we need in and out of the BBC. So it's a big win for them, it's big win for all the other people in the BBC as well. And also, making that is hard. -Yeah. -It is, it is difficult. You've got a big one. There's a lot of stuff in there, giving that a shout on the road. It's difficult. Yeah, and I would say that every time that you hit a snow, you just have to stay in the lane and just keep going and kind of be resilient and keep pushing through. There's so many things that we didn't think that we'd be able to do that we can do now, launching new streams and sounds, launching podcasts, tabs and sounds, thinking about all of those different functionality that would like me to content just more easy to kind of discover because the BBC, at any one time, has 80,000 hours of content on it, mix of archive, view. So it's about something that is good enough for the water offerers. Well done. Thanks, bud. -Hello, is Beth Day from How To Fail? -Yes. -Congratulation. -Congratulation. -Thank you. -Look at this. For your work with Dove, -Yes. -Best commercial partnership. -Yes. -Money's quite important for podcasters. We would be nothing without advertisers, so I'm incredibly grateful that they give us the liberty to do what we do and a great commercial partnership like the one that we have with Dove. Really allows us to be ourselves and they worked with us so seamlessly. It was a really beautiful thing. It never feels like we're selling out. And it's incredibly important to me as the creator and host of How To Fail that our integrity is in tax. So to work with a brand like Dove, we've totally got that. They were really aligned with our values. We're so excited. You talked a little bit there about the start of your podcast. Quite a journey. It took about failure. It's a great success. You've just won an award. Yes. How do you feel about where the show is now today? I feel thrilled where the show is now. It's transformed my life. It's transformed some of the lives of my community who listen and watch it every week and I'm so incredibly grateful for that. And I feel like we're only just scratching the surface of what our potential is. So it's a tremendously exciting time and I'm just so thrilled I get to work with this amazing team of people who are behind the camera right now, but they are amazing. And it feels like such a collaborative effort. So onwards and upwards and ever more greater guests. Congratulations. Thank you so much. [MUSIC PLAYING] We're at the podcast show with Pauline, Claire from Audio. Always. Hello, both. Hello. I'm looking to see you. Lovely to see you too. We were showing earlier. You're doing an interesting thing. I think it's an interesting thing. Promoting shows is hard. All you always, you run lots of shows, video, audio. What are you doing that I found interesting? Tell me about it. So we're running continuity announcements, across our podcast. Yeah, so to pause that, continuity announcements. That's quite like an old fashioned, telly thing. Where's it work podcasts? It works on TV, right? That little announcement before the next show comes up, telling you what else is going on on the station. Why can't we have that across podcast as well? So we've started doing this over the last couple of months and pre-missed myself and one of my other colleagues. We've recorded these announcements at a teasing content coming up on similar shows. So for example, help us set to my boss. We're teasing what's coming up in the week ahead on the team commandments. A box similar across our audience. And we think the audience of help by setting to my boss would really enjoy what's coming up on Sarah and Claire's show. So it's a great way of giving a bit of a personal touch as well, because we know the content that's coming up on there. So we can tease it directly. And we're having good results with it as well. Being seeing those audiences jump over to the other show, adding it next in their queue as well. So we're giving them direct call to action. Does it run at the end of an episode in the middle of one? Right, right at the start. So we play it-- Oh, the beginning. Right at the beginning. So we've seen some hits play on it. It's one of us popping up saying, your show's going to play in a moment. But just before we get into that, we've got loads of great stuff across our network that you're going to love as well. It's just those little pointers, those little directions. So we can bring the audience back into audio always and keep them listening to our shows. You've obviously got a presenter background as well in your career. She in that helps in writing those or recording those. Of course it does. I think exactly what the audience want, having presented for quite a few years, I'm quite tuned into what grabs attention, what they want to hear, and those little hooks that give a little bit away. But it's always about the teasers. So we've been doing a lot of that as well, giving enough away, but making people want to go over and hear the whole episode. Paul, if it's pre-roll, that's quite a premium spot to put on shows. Is it that important to push people to your other content? I think so. I think we've talked a lot internally about there are different ways we can do this. But our sense is potentially a third-second promo. Might not always be the best of you. Paul, there are lots of promos running on lots of podcasts and they're all promoting something. And so as we grow out the network and we're now operating quite significant scale with a really big growth over the last 12 months, doubling the size of our listens and views on the month on the month basis. But we're trying to do is understand audience communities rather than show by show communities. So actually the girls at the room and leave a message and the Jack and Jack show are sharing lots of audience. Let's make sure that we're driving cross-pollination across those communities. And I think actually whilst it's a premium spot, hopefully it's more effective and meaningful for the audience. Yes. Any feedback from listeners about it? Are they noticed? Well, we've had some great numbers already. We've been working with ACAST looking at the amount of audience that's jumping over to the podcast that we're recommending. I think in the first month's trial, we had over 191,000 people following the direction that we've given them. Now of course, there's lots of data flying around there. Maybe they're listening already. But they hadn't in that previous month listened to that podcast that we'd recommended. So we've taken that to positive sign that people are moving over. And just to kind of channel in it some of the specifics as well, especially across our true crime slate, we're really seeing a big impact. That's such a tuned in audience. What's true crime? The true crime people are so hungry for new content, aren't they? Yeah, I guess it can be less of a promo and just it's satisfied as a need. You're like, what else can I consume? It's a beast that's got to be fed. And I feel like we're kind of doing that with those continuity announcements, pointing them in the direction of other stories that they can get in, whether it's a series or another always on show. We've got so much to offer. It makes sense to be able to point them in the direction of their next listen. Paul, I'm sure you've been in the podcast show I think you hear yesterday here today as well. A lot of business chat, it's kind of moving, perhaps a little bit more is the business of podcasting than it is sort of the creator, single creator world. What's kind of keeping you busy already always, what are you thinking about for the next 12 months? I think for us, the big thing is that community piece that we talked about before, and we're working a lot on roles that allowed us to. understand those audiences. Data series is going to be much more important. We've signed up to Podstock in the last few months who are a team there here this year which allows us to see all our data from audio video and socials all in one place the first time which I think is going to be super important. I think yeah that community piece, podcast community management is a important new role in our business in the last 12 months, that kind of social piece. And where I'm looking to next and where we're starting to hear conversations in the room is those kind of brand and licensing opportunities and help us access my boss has just gone live on MTV for nights of week in the UK and we think there's lots of opportunities there from TV, from books and beyond. Maybe not groundbreaking, there are other people in this space but I think that's where my focus is going to be for next 12 months. Paul and Claire, thank you very much. Thank you. Okay we're back at the podcast show and there's just enough time for the audio network media quiz. Three new stories hidden within an existing media property this week it's the weakest podcast link. I'm Rommesh Ranganathan. There have been scores of new announcements here at podcast show but can you deduce the ones that have been greenlit from those that have been made up by our producer. And once again Alex, audio network has taken that very slight brief and carefully created a playlist of music to score today's game. And then added in post just like on the telly, sorry live audience. You're taking turns to answer so it's weakest link style. I'm going to go around all of you. You just got to say, well it's true or it's made up. Okay let's start the clock. A cast to create 3D podcasts. Sony Music launches choose your own adventure true crime podcast. True. Made up. I suppose you should have banged because of the Thomas there. Jim Global announced a new premium advertising capability on YouTube. I mean that that's that's actually boring enough to be real. Correct. Radio Caroline announced is the death of King Charles. True. It is true. Survey suggests most podcast listeners own a pet. Christ. True. No, that was made up. Jim, a Celine Dion Chatt Show. True. No, made up. Spotify to Spotify to verify podcasters. True. Correct. British scandal to launch season on Sakscape. I feel at some point one of us has to say Chuck can but instead I'll just say false. It is false. Podnew says YouTube is winning podcasts creator hearts. True. It's true. Rest is history to cover to cover Epstein files. Cover. Is made up. And finally, diversio announces live experience. True. Surely. Well, fortunately it's not true. It's made up. Well done to the team. I suppose we should just say who there did you think was the weakest link Jim out of your. Because me was a. I do want to. I mean the idea is really good. There's a lot of free IP going that. Who's the weakest link pick one of your competitors? Oh, is it is unfair to do Charlotte? Tom. I've got every question right. I don't think I understood the rules of the game. Tom, who's the weakest link? Clearly. Charlotte. Thomas. Yes, Thomas. Just before we go, how can people keep up with your work, Jim? Google London centric. Excellent. Tom. Sadly, LinkedIn. Charlotte. Preskizert.co.uk or LinkedIn. Excellent. Thank you to all our guests and thank you to our audience. Thank you very much.