The PGA Tour's Fascinating Future (Ep. 41)

Welcome back to the normal sports show. My name is Kyle Porter. I'm here today with one of my good friends on the professional golf circuit. Just period good friends Joel Beale Joel. How are we doing? Good man. Thanks for inviting me on. I really appreciate it. Yeah, we, you know, I texted you yesterday. We haven't. And then I was like, "Ah, he's surely he's been on before, but he haven't been on." So we've got a lot to catch up on some US Open cleanup, a lot of PJ tour stuff. We were brought to you today by Seed Golf. Seed Golf is one of my favorite brands in all golf. I'll tell you more about that. Here in a little bit, but yeah, what, how have you been recovering? I know you went to traveler championship following the US Open, but what's the recovery process been like for Joel Beale following a week in at Chinatown? We were just talking before we hopped on like we're both feel exhausted and we were just washing these guys play. I have no idea. Now then play signature events the following week. Yeah, man, it's the fact that we had this huge announcement yesterday, definitely delayed the recovery process. But that being said, it was a big day. I think it was a really good day for golf. I am glad you and by me on because despite hanging out a lot last week, there was one thing I just totally forgot to bring up when I saw you, which is a recent of recent development on your pie with Shawn Martin's our library's pyramid schemes tape. I don't I don't know what Shawn Deliver would even take so much as like a roll this Chapman fastballs the chin. It is insane, right? It is. It's so wrong. Right, because first of all, I was due by the book often multiple copies. I think they're actually the most reliable book buyers book buyers and publishing. They also like libraries make authors. That's where people discover a writer that they never gamble 30 bucks on an airport book. And like once they fall in love, you know, they buy the book. They tell their friends. They show that signings. Basically every author was ever built a real readership. It's like it's like saying that like a blaming like a wine sample steals from a vineyard. It was like it was such a bananas take and. Library is exists is a beautiful idea that knowledge is available to everyone. It's like the original Internet and smart and like no, it's it's pretty made off. It's truly it truly caught me off guard. I did not see it coming. I absolutely love libraries generally just it's you know taking my kids there and letting them pick out books. And I always go to a library and I'm like, I'll just get like one or two books and I leave with like 20. And like 17 of them I read two pages and don't finish. So that's probably a me problem, but it was a it was a it was you know to stay in the golf. It was a nuclear take like it was straight straight nuclear. I don't I mean I do I actually would like to know more about the economics of like if you know whoever like if Malcolm Gladwell's book gets rented out for lack of a better term a thousand times at a library like does the publisher there get more money than you know like my book that gets rented out twice. Do we know that do we do we have any idea about the economics of of library world. The other day I know that the economics is that they're comically underfunded and now smart and wants to pay up more for. I mean honestly like it's like it'd be like yeah I just I don't think we need municipal golf courses first tea programs we don't need we need less access to golf is kind of like the library take right. It's also a beautiful prison in the shan's mind who I mean I'm not like an all serious maybe one of the smartest guys I've just ever met. But he has this pension for just throwing these academic or needs and walking away. What else is what he's done. It was I still can't believe it every while in that part of the podcast a good six or seven times. Just just fast in it. It was beautiful. Well I'm glad we could have I've got to revisit that we might have to do a three man pod and and just get not even so golf just get steep on. I need a librarian to reach out I called for librarians last time no actually my sister in law used to work at a library so I might my need to reach out to her. Okay you were at the I don't know how to transition here but you're at the Tucker Woods Brian roll out Jay monahan so many people involved in the announcement on Tuesday and I'm curious about. So we'll get into the specifics of it basically the roll up announcing a new path forward for the PJ tour we've known this was coming but this was. Not every detail but really like not to use the word again but framework for like what the PJ tour is going to look like starting January one or February one 2028. So I specific aside what was the vibe like what was the like what was everybody's reaction was it optimistic positive because we've left some of these before and after monahan talks or whatever and you're like dude I don't I don't know how this is like I don't know what's going on here what. Is this the same or different than some of those in the past. Yeah not the trial pile on but you look at the what was actually said yesterday and there wasn't much they kind of stuck to the script of the press release which you know was very ambitious and I think if you can see the concept for itself radically different from anything we've seen. But for a lot of different reasons the details still remain like they're still iron them out or the ones I have they're playing them close to the best and I say that because despite all that I think people still came away as like this was one of those informant of PJ tour things we've ever seen which I think is more of an indictment for kind of the previous regime how. How you know they just didn't seem like they ever had a plan or if it was a plan it was like a half baked take or it just seem like they were there are so many constituents involved that they were just stuck in stasis right so I didn't the overall vibe yesterday was positive I think you know that the tiger thing was a little odd I think most people in the media knew was coming around Sunday but to kind of see him come out equals symbol in a sense of you know he wanted to kind of know want people to know this had his blessing I think that was. Whole point of him being there but yeah I think the way roll up interacts with people he. I think Jay through new follow the zone you talk to people who work for Jay they they you know definitely speak to his character as a person is a really nice guy intelligent guy and yet when he gets behind the mic he becomes very combative unnecessarily combative I would say to questions that can be innocuous. Whereas even though again brought if you look at the responses there's a lot of hey I know you're asking I can't tell you that or hey we're still working it out he at least makes you feel heard and that like you're trying to do but like he kind of treats you like a person I think that's I think that was like the biggest five changes I've seen from him compared to Jay. I think most people are there's been so much talk of the last five years of like where is this going anytime there is one of these things it seems like we don't get an answer we get like these. Really vague ambitions this was like the most clear cut vision direction we've had and I think that's I think that made up the lack of details yesterday that seems like they finally had to get true north they're following and. Probably more importantly that it seems like a lot of people trust the guy behind the wheel you all that's what I was going to say was it comes off as I was thinking about this as I was I caught bits and pieces of it i got a lot of it actually but. The way that I'm not totally sure how to describe this with the way that roll up interacts is like it makes you it does make you feel heard but it also is a reminder of like hey I'm in charge like I'm the guy making the decisions. And it made me curious about whether in his interactions with other stakeholders like players or whoever if it comes off like that with them as well because I think part of the problem with monahant seemingly I was not behind the scenes for all the stuff but is that it felt like it was kind of easy to run him over like it like for players or whoever to kind of and with roll up it seems like he's he's pretty formidable as like a. I know that you guys have a say in this but like this is kind of the direction that we're going in did you do you feel that also yeah I would say those two are inverse of each other right and in the sense of J is very much from the old world so he is more comfortable with the other leaders of the sport and because there's really much conflict there that's where he's probably best that right that's why he's good with. Turned sponsors that was kind of the job or live game whereas like players you know he I don't think distant but I think there definitely there was a feeling that Jay let you know that he was like above you from what former players have told me. And that there's so many different levels of player right there's the superstar there's the journey man there's the up and counter like I think there was just a disconnection there that ultimately was kind of annoying whereas roll up it seems like all the players speak very well. Even those who don't necessarily agree with his vision or plan they they all kind of speak to like least the guys I talked to yesterday and through the past nine 10 months they all seem to say man this guy really seems invested in us and you know he believes in that he basically is putting his faith in us that if we if I do right by the players the product will be better will be better business. Now I say the inverse of J is that you know Brian has is this is pretty radical the changes he's doing all the other covering bodies now because of that It's kind of an indictment of what they've done so maybe they're not as welcoming to what he's doing because you can't be the outsider To say we're gonna shake things up and then of course the insiders are gonna be like well, why did things need to be shake up? Up so and I actually think his relationship with most of the leaders are is good Maybe they speak highly of them but in terms of like philosophy and where they want to go I think that's maybe we see a little bit more friction yet like I would also say I think he's already accomplished more in his year with other governing bodies and maybe jaded I mean I think the biggest signal to me was last week the Mike on youth the rollback thing right The fact that PJ tours are gonna put players are gonna have more best say now like players should have been having a You can argue if they should should or should not have to say but like there's a reason they're now getting that That's because roll up has like really tried to help bridge the gap with the USGA and I know people have a lot of opinions on that but I it's not a coincidence that this is happening now This early in roll-ups tenure that whereas Monahan was kind of like I'm staying out of this. This is this is a warning since I don't want any part of it and I think roll Afraid because he has these he doesn't have these past relationships. He's not if he just is what he wants to do right by the fans I think that is his like as long as we're going that way everything else will eventually be fine Whereas J was always like we got to make sure everybody's happy and okay about that you do that like no one's gonna be happy So I think that's been at least to me the biggest difference so far through this first year of roll-ups tenure Yeah, I get that sense as well that he's not a It roll-up does not well two things one. I think it benefits him that he's an outsider honestly especially at this particular moment in time with things like changing the sort of fundamental structure of an organization you kind of You don't have to be an outsider, but I think it benefits you because you're like I don't I have no ties to 25 years ago or 10 years ago or three years ago. I'm just trying to like Be great in 2026 and if there's been a problem with Golf or the PJ tour it's because it constantly seems 10 20 years behind everything and So I think that's one thing and then I think the second one is is kind of what you alluded to at the end there is like he's just And again, I don't I don't know him. I have not talked him at length or anything like that He just doesn't seem like a a pushover. He seems like hey, this is And not just I don't I don't just mean just a pushover like Just the opposite of a pushover, but also like hey, this is what we're doing and here's why here's the vision for it Like he seems like a really good. I was thinking about like I was comparing him. I sat in Wont Mike Wands press conference last week at the US open and 10 of 10 talker like unbelievable talker. I don't know if all of it's Completely accurate or true or whatever, but I do I do think that the leaders of as Jeff Shackford calls the five families In golf right now, so you look at at Mike one you look at Brian roll up Fred Ridley Terry Clark, I believe at the pj of America and then the RNA is Darbin. Yep Margarine. Yeah, it seems like those guys are I mean they're From where I'm sitting that's a pretty like Murder's row of CEOs like leading these organizations and I mean that in a good from a good in a good sense in a good way I'm curious if you feel the same about that kind of lineup of CEOs at these five organizations Absolutely and someone brought that exact same point up thing on Saturday at the US open You know, I know probably three of those guys pretty well and They all They all come in from different angles, which I think is interesting like Darbens like the only I guess Clark - those two are like the hardcore golf guys I mean obviously Ridley was a player himself, but like his whole thing There's a there's a level of detachment that just comes with a gust of national yeah standing right and you know he He probably doesn't get really probably doesn't get enough change for all All the developments he's ushered in. I mean the the an Y itself is probably one of the Two or three biggest things golf scene I asked 10 years for the good so um, but there's always a lot of ego involved anytime those those bodies come together And it seems like despite like it doesn't There's no you don't hear any westwards of oh man when they get in the same room this guy's a problem or everyone rolls Their eyes when this guy starts talking they all seem to like kind of get each other and That they're all like hey, we just want to do what's best for the gang so be good for business So like there is a selfish reason to this but the same time like we don't need to have competing or a conflicting Interestedness like if we all do this right. We shall should benefit. I think there's a real business sense that hasn't been there At least in my 12 12 years of the beat so Um, I'm with you. It's a very vulnerable role and I especially when it comes to rule out because So you're wrong. This is not a knock on golf But like roll up was essentially like the guy at I mean Gidele was basically just the face like if you talk to folks in the NFL like Rule up was the one that kind of got things done. He would really get the owners involved Very very much the force behind any of the media deals which has been the NFL's engine If you want to know why they become as big and as popular and it's formidable as they have it's off of that and you know I I'm just on the road from NBC sports here and like they talk about roll-app as like some deity is like a guy who You know, and I like I say in a sense of like that's That's a the TV world is where no one says anything positive about anybody About that guy like he is he's the aberration. This is a guy who understands it that you know treats people with respect But also just extremely sharp guy and I think a lot of that sharpness comes from he's like one of the few that's Going to say like I don't know what this is you tell me like you're the expert. How do we get there? He's more like a problem solver than a guy who has all the answers or at least that's how he finds the answers by getting people involved I think that's how you if you look at kind of how the schedule came to be Or this this concept came to be there are a lot of voices in there and the fact that he was able to get so many voices and all kind of make him feel heard I think it's really testament to his ability and probably should make people feel good about where this is ultimately going Yeah, no, I agree. I I really do um Okay, I wanted to get into the actual Framework itself of what the PGA tour is doing starting in 2028 you wrote a really good piece or golf digest That I actually read twice and it's basically like fifth. I can't remember the title of about 15 uh Questions thoughts about like here's what the pee here's Here are um Like what here's what you need to know about the PGA tours plan uh for the future And if people haven't read it. It's on golf digest calm. It's excellent um and This like reading that and texting with each other sort of spawn like oh we should talk about this because I was sort of coming at all this from the perspective of like This is not a huge deal I don't think it's I like it. I like a lot of it which I wasn't saying that I dislike it But I was just arguing that it wasn't a huge deal and you were saying like no, this is actually a really big deal And I think I've come around to some of that thinking as I've thought more about it and and read more about it and Yeah, just I've written a little bit about it uh just for myself or whatever so we can talk about that at the end But I did want to get into like just We're not gonna go through you know detail by detail the entire plan for the PGA tour starting in 2028, but I wanted each of us to call out our three favorite parts of this proposal Moving forward and probably along the way we'll hit most of like the big stuff But just give me your first of of your three favorite parts of the new PGA tour proposal Yeah, the most of this proposal has been telegraphed You know either buy roll up himself just a couple months ago at the players or you know if you've been around golf you've heard bits and pieces The one that I think caught a lot of folks by surprise me was thrown about but I think a lot of people thought There's no way they're gonna be able to couple themselves from each lake But like the tour championship rotating venues is such a big win because this thing's supposed to feel I'm not gonna say like a major but like a big marquee event For a reason like I don't know if it was the spot the format like each lake itself. It just never Head back Robotoss and I think move having it rotate and then having it rotate at prestigious venues Might be the most impactful thing It's that's happened to the playoff system since it's that's found at 20 years ago So that and you know talking to there's a reason there were no courses mentioned yesterday But like hearing that a few of the thoughts have been interested like Makes you really oh my gosh. This could be a really fun event And something that golf fans should Should get excited about and something that would actually kind of give the rest of the season a little bit more Gravitoss as well So to me that was like the big takeaway of and then you know You you put in that match plays coming back and it'd be in that I think that's something every year in the tour championship You see these huge threads of this is what the tour championship would look like if it was match play and For something that that went away that was such a like a golf die hard event now to kind of put that with real stakes Man, that's I think that was like one of the biggest I don't want to say the biggest things because it you know there's a lot more Long-term vision there that in terms of just a media of wins that was the first like oh my gosh This was so easy yet it seemed there are so much political connections with East Lake and Coca-Cola and That they were able to finally go know what like You've been great partners and hopefully we'll come back but like we need to move this around, that was that was such a big W for me. Russ Henley just demanding that Coca-Cola be involved in the, in the, dude, David. So that was what a mind as well. Mine was more focused on the match play portion. I think that, you know, one of the pushbacks on match play is it doesn't always, you know, like when you had match play as a regular season PGA Tour event, you got some matchups in the third round or the fourth round that you're like, I don't want to watch this. Like it's the 63rd, it's like, grand de laid and, you know, the maximum gravy. I keep using the maximum gravy and it's like the, I feel bad. Like I need to stop using him. And I just saw grand de laid at the US Open. But regardless, like you get some matchups like that. And I think the argument here is like, no, because you're narrowing down, like who's in it, you're going to get awesome matchups. Now I don't want them to go full NCAA tournament and keep expanding, expanding, expanding, letting more teams in. Like have it as, I think I saw 32 sort of tossed out there. I'd be fine with 16. But the thing I'm curious about, Joel, is what the other post season, they didn't, I don't think the board playoff is used. But post season events look like, are they going to keep those first two and then do match play at the end? Like what's the, what do you think the post season sort of format is? How that's going to play out? I do think match, we can definitely count on match play at the, at the toward championship. There might be a variation of it in like the second event where it's like, these guys are faced with strokes, like the bottom 12 you guys are fighting for your just spot at that point. I mean, there's been so many different iterations of proposals. And I think this was more about like that's one of the, not that it's not important, but I think there have been other blocks to put down first before they address us. I would not, I don't think you're going to have a match play event in week. The first week of the post season because you exactly, you said you can't have Skyy, Sheffler, you know, Luzon, whoever was, you know, night, if and not all it's like you, you, I know it doesn't, it'll be some that said, that's was that really a true playoffs? It's like, I don't know, man. Like do you really know, but do you really want Sheffler out in a week one? Right. So like, there's, I think it's going to be more cumulative on that front ride and like a true post season. But like, again, everything's on the table. I just would be very surprised if we see match play introduced that early into the post season. Well, and the other thing that was a little bit confusing was, you know, roll up was putting a lot of emphasis on who wins the regular season title or whatever. And I'm curious about, because we already have, I don't know who's sponsoring it anymore, but like the $2 million to the regular season winner or whatever. What's your sense of like how the regular, this regular season champion aggregate, whatever it is is going to be, how is that going to be compared to like the, the tour championship winner? Like, which one do you feel like will be more prestigious? Cause right now, I think you would say the FedExHep champion, the tour championship winner is a more prestigious thing. It's what people, if people remember either, that would be the one that they remember. Is that going to be the same in the future? You think? I think so. I mean, to me, that just seemed like more like us. A sponsorship opportunity. Like I know it kept stressing it, but like, yeah, we already have that now. I just, I get it. And like he's not wrong at having this cumulative thing. Like, yeah, that is probably the best indicator to the best year. I just don't like it. That just in a word, though, like what does that, is that person who gained one more year of eligibility going for? I just, that was the one point where I just kind of felt not that it was a throw in, but just maybe something that didn't seem fully formed. But you did mention it a couple of times. So like clearly, it's going to be there in some capacity. Yeah. Okay. My second one. So I mentioned match playing the postseason is, is one of my favorite parts, especially if like you said, they, they go to some elite venues. And I think, you know, there's an opportunity there. People were talking about this on Twitter or text or whatever, but there's an opportunity there. If you go, if you do match by, you can kind of, you open up, if you do match play with not that many players, you open up the amount of venues that you can go to because you reduce the need for infrastructure and you reduce the need for going to a place where it's going to, you know, challenge guys at the level that we're accustomed to. Guys can go shoot 61 in match play and like, nobody cares or even knows. It's just match play, you know. So I think that part is going to be super interesting. The Pine Valley Seminole thing they got thrown around. Was that, I mean, it seemed like that was weird in the way that it was talked about. I have no doubt that they've disgusted internally, but is that, do you think that's even a real thing? I wouldn't say it's unreal. I do think the way that was originally written was especially more of like an example of Pine the Sky rather than like, this is what we're definitely going from, from, I've looked from what, tour sources have told me like, they really haven't even started the recruitment process yet or asking for bids in terms of that. Yet like some, their head been interest from some pretty prestigious venues. So, but yeah, I, the Pine Valley want to be great, but I just have a hard time seeing that. I don't think they would want that. I think like, I wouldn't rule out Cyprus. I've heard there's interest there. Like, you know, you look at the like the top 15 top 20 list of courses where at least the majors don't visit right now. I think there's some real possibilities for those courses to be involved. I also think that the tour knows that. I'll say when I put prestigious venues because, and we can get this on a little bit later, like, that's one of my biggest questions. Like, you can't just say prestigious venues and then come out with like TPC Boston, right? So, like, you need to like make sure, you know, and again, I think they do, there has to be some back channel discussion that if we go forward, we have enough conviction that we will kind of that won't we're saying we'll be able to live up to it. And I do think there's a semblance of that there. Yeah, it's a good point. Okay, my second one I didn't get to, but I, one of my favorite parts is that you can't jump between tracks. So, you can't play the challenger track if you're on the championship track and you can't play the championship track if you're on the challenger track unless you win twice in a season or in a year. And I actually think that it is one of the things that people were a little bit frustrated by and maybe I was at first as well was that you can't jump between like if you're on the challenger track, you can't get hot and jump up to the championship level. And people are like, oh, that like we need in season promotion and all this stuff. But I actually think it's I think the way that it's structured really simplifies things of like, this is what you're playing all year. This is it. This is all your point. You're on the challenger tour, whatever, whatever the name eventually becomes. And if you're in the top 20 or 10 or 30 or whatever the number eventually is, you're going to be on the championship tour next year. And same goes like bottom 30, you're going to be on the challenger track. And I think that I think one of the things that that was a takeaway from me and I think roll up kind of said this, but essentially, and this is this is why I'm sort of torn on, is this a big deal or not? They're kind of just reorganizing or not reorganizing. They're organizing this kind of messy stuff that's going on with the tour. And I think the organization or any organization of anything provides clarity. And I think what you're getting here is clarity, which is one of the I don't think you use that word is one of his pillars whenever he first came on. It was maybe simplicity or something like that. And that's a great thing for fans. So I'm actually a fan of the fact that you don't have to worry about who's on the A on swing 12 or so many different things. It's just like, nope, these are your 120 guys for the year. These are your 140s for the year. Here's the corn tray tour. We'll revisit it on January 1 next year. Yeah, well, the caveat of allowing someone who's one twice and the challenge is sort of jump up, which is I think is a nice little ad. Yes. It mirrors like a premier league champions league relegation, right? Which is like, there should be real consequence to having a bad year that like, sorry, man, like you are down there. My only worry would be like a young guy coming out of college who like is on there and gets hot, but like I think those are going to be like a one off and you're right. I think it's more of codifying what already exists. Like you look at the John deer, man, it's like no one at the top 40 plays out of that. And you're just like, there's more events like that that just kind of had the same heels over and over rather than like, oh man, like that means we're not going to get like a top, you know, 15 guy to come and like those were over pre rare already. Yeah, it makes the sell a little harder, I guess, for some tournaments, but like gosh, how many years have have these B level events kind of sold a promise of something that any one in the industry knew wasn't going to happen? Like this might be the year where he comes or you know, it's the comments like it never happened. So except Scotty going to three and open this year makes you make you wonder about that. But right, it's like it that's so the rear happened. So yeah, it's I understand it seemed very harsh in principle, but like if you weigh it all out and kind of look at the last five years, it's like actually this is kind of how it already is to an extent, but it really, really knocks it down in terms of like we're just kind of making official what it already is. Yeah, yeah, I agree. What's your second one? This is more of a sentimental, but I think there could be long term business ramifications of this, which is like kind of like, and kind of varied, but like the international falls I think for years, so many of us have really wanted the tour to do a European swing in the summer. That's probably the one of the weakest parts of the schedule, like that post-US open to like before the playoffs, right? Like there's kind of a lot of like so-so events. And there's always been this idea of like, why don't you just give the DP World Tour this like a month of move the Irish open back to July, have the sky open where it's at the open, and like some mundane or whales events. Like that's an awesome month of links golf. And something that, you know, I think it was always very much like, oh, it'd be great if that would happen, but it will not happen. The fact that there's going to be this false series, you might see this like many de facto European swing up like the Dunhill. You're going to have a St Andrews presence every year. I mean, that alone like, sign me the hell up. You're going to, like it sounds like the Irish open has kind of moved back to the fall now. If you're going to, if Rory, I mean, Rory's played that couple of years, if you can move that to like, links course instead of like a K club or a Parkland course, that looks really good. I think you're going to see this either the French open or even like a vent outside of London part of the rotation, maybe you throw like the spain open. Like there's a really good chance that it's like really interesting European swing there in the fall. And it's a great time in the sense of, you know, yeah, you're not going to get the huge audience since the non-capital family watching football, but like, man, like that could be extremely for a very tough part of the schedule, like no offense to the PGA tour fall, but like there's some rough events that can really lack star power. This could really like juice up the D.P. World tour and really bring some of these marquee events, even better venues than they already are. So for that one, like, man, that just has the potential and it really I think could be both just a win for just golf fans. And then also like there's these are pretty untapped markets. Everything I've kind of heard on the D.P. World tour side of like they don't really make that much money when they go to these sites. And yet they know what they make when like the rider cup goes or like they see or 40 events doing to go these towns and they just go, man, if we just have to connect the PGA towards backing on this, what their sponsors, we saw what Genesis did for the Scottish open event that was kind of in trouble. If we have co-sanctious events from the tour and have some American companies, American sponsors, like these could be big events. So yeah, I think that the fact that it sounds like again, one of those like not fully formed ideas, but like they have a vague concept of what they want to do. That just seems like it could be a really big one for like golf sellets. Yeah, I totally agree. I do have questions about and so it's some of the ones you've voiced of just like, how does, what are these events in the fall? Are they Challenger Series? Are they Championship? You know, like can, because you know, if they're Challenger Series, like can Rory play in them, can Shane Lowry play in them? Because they can't, or are they neither? Are they just kind of their own thing? And the other thing for me is I, I realize that this is probably like stress testing whether this works. But part of me just wishes they would fully not be stuck between release patterns and just fully go in and say, we're merging the, not the tours, but like the, the, the infrastructure of the, of the organization, like the levels of players and say, like, hey, because they've already done this, right? Like DP World Tour, if you finish in the top 10, you're on the PGA Tour. How's that going to work? How do these events sort of fit into the championship Challenger Corn Fairy? I don't, I have a lot of questions. I'm with you. Like I love those events. And I think they're better than 80% of the events on the PGA Tour probably maybe more 90%. I just don't know how they're going to fit in. I want some clarification and some simplification in terms of how they fit into what the PGA Tour has presented. No, I agree. I mean, I think they'll get there. And I think everything I've understood from what Rollup has kind of learned over the past year. For example, like I think the relationship between he and guy Kennings is very strong. Yeah. A lot of respect there. So that definitely helps. I think guys also aware that the previous strategic alliance really a lot of his men, a lot of the DP World Tour members feel like they were had, right? Like it was clearly this construct to make sure that the DP World Tour didn't sign with the Saudis. And then only to see two years later, the PGA Tour make this framework with the room with the Saudis, right? So like I think this has to be more than just like, hey, you guys are still with us, right? You're not talking to Piff, right? This needs to be like genuine investment. And it has to be more than just one sky show up in. And yeah, a couple of your guys can come play to Barbersol. Like it needs to be like, no, Benz. And by the way, like, you could bring just like doing them a solid like you can be insane. Anders every year, why wouldn't you take that opportunity? You can be in London, you can be like Munich, right? Like this is a very smart business opportunity while coming off as a very fan focused initiative. So I think for all the things the last four or five years, just like the, this is a time to be creative. I understand you've been coupled to the past for so long. This is the time that we should be like blank board. How do we do this? And I think that's, we'll get to it later. I think that's why I feel more hopeful after yesterday and these developments than I have any part since the, you know, schism began. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. Okay. My third one that I is a favorite part of the, the, the framework here is. I don't, and this is sort of related to one I said earlier, but I don't have to wonder what is a big event anymore. It's, they are straight up telling me. And, you know, like you mostly knew, okay, well, not Wells Fargo, but Quill Hall is going to be big and John Deere's not. Right. But like, there were some years that you're like, is, you know, who's playing like, is this going to be a thing or is it not? And now it's just there's total, total clarity there. Now, not all the best players will play all the biggest events. I think that's pretty clear between. Rory and Scotty, like, I don't think those guys are going to be playing 24 times a year, but for the most part, you're going to get. You're going to know what's big and what's not. And actually, I saw an interview with Matt McNeely on. I think it was on golf channel and he was talking about this from a player perspective. He's like, one of the unintended benefits of this is that guys know on January 1, they know where they're going to be, but they know their entire schedule. And they might not play every single event. They might take a week off or whatever, but he was just talking about like how important that is from a, logistics and scheduling perspective. And I thought that was interesting. Matt was a smart guy and I think that, you know, he's thought pretty deeply about all these, all the different aspects of this, but I just, I think that's a huge win is like knowing what what events are championship and what are challenger like that, that to me is super important. I can't someone at the tour yesterday was telling me like, you know, they do this symposium for rookies and, you know, like everyone gets their tour card. They think, all right, I'm on. It's like, yep, we'll see you in mid February because like so many of these guys could knock it on. So like, well, I know the challenger could look like a knockdown or, hey, why are we even 20 guys come up? There is like you forget these guys are people right like they have schedules to build their families to build around and to have back, you know, only really the top 40 50 guys previously had had that kind of safety net. So yeah, just from a human element, which I know, you know, to us, it probably isn't mean much, but like we have to remember like the word product has been turned around so much we forget there's actually people are the I think that's the big one, which actually leads me to my third one and it's the sponsor exemptions are gone and from the product standpoint, it finally gives like the biggest knock. I mean, like you can't call yourself a meritocracy and then give yourself these sponsor exemptions. I mean, as rollup said yesterday in the scrum, he's like, can you imagine like the heat the NBA would catch up like, yeah, we're letting this guy in the playoffs because, you know, like Nike wants to win like like to accent that's what these sponsor something sitting to events were right. And then from the people side, I think it was. I mean, no one, if you're a web Simpson, if you're out of Scott, both those guys who caught tremendous amount of heat the past couple of years for getting these sponsor exemptions while they were on the board, like both guys who are extremely well liked and yet like there was some real animus in the locker room that they got these exemptions kind of because of their status and in the political matrix. So like, I think weirdly like we forget there actually is a little bit of harm to these players as well now. Yeah, some of these guys have really taken advantage of them and like if get their car off like I think it was a year or two ago where like Damon kind of was able to keep his car off of some like, it's really exemption. So it's just it was such an unnecessary own goal. And I also don't really understand it was never properly under like explain me why they were even existing the first place like 18 T's really going to pull out if like they can't get Web Simpson in the field like, OK, I think you guys are really over playing that hand. So yeah, I just felt like this was such a small thing that it was easily fixable that became such a ban of their distance will as four or five years. It was such an easy fix and again, that it's it's it's kind of inferior and it took this long to fix, but at least it's fixed. Yeah, I think I think part of the reason for it earliest people would tell you is that to get your Michael Essassos and your Gordon sergeants into some of these tournaments whenever there are amateurs or young pros or whatever. But the fix for that is not sponsor exemptions it's providing a pathway post college or post. high school or whatever. And so that's one of the questions I have later on is like what are the, and we don't know it yet, but what are the pathways going to be for those guys? If you have clear pathways there, then you don't need sponsored exemptions, right? Like that's just, it is an own goal. It's completely unnecessary. It undermines your, what you're preaching, which is like the purest meritocracy in the world. Well, no, it's not because four guys, every signature event get in without earning it. You know, like that's, that's the, you know, like the mentioned there, like the idea to keep these, I don't feel like the young up and come or I agree, only two events to any regularity did that. Now is the RBC Canadian open and the travelers before travelers became this like, you know, close field. Like there's a reason the trip, the one of the reasons the travelers got to where it's at is because it was like one of the few events that saw and like treated the young guys really well. And they all remembered that. Instead, if you look at how these sponsored exemptions are used, it's like, oh, like this agency's growing the event or like so and so's dad's buddy the club member who's like really kind of dirty stuff behind the scenes. And it was just again, like I understand one in Jordan's speech. He's one of the two or three most still, still biggest salesman fan base. But like if his games not there, like he shouldn't be taken to spot. Neither in Jordan, nothing against Ricky. I mean, the females had a lot, Max Homel has had a lot of these best couple of years. Like I think it secretly doesn't deserve us to them. So get just getting rid of this is just, you do, you do. Yeah. Shoot him into the sun. OK, we'll get to our three things we just like and then three questions we have. But first, let's talk about seed golf. Seed golf also based in Ireland. We're just talking about the Irish open. Seed golf makes the best golf balls you've never heard of. They're aim is to bring premium performance golf products to golfers of all abilities for less. One of my favorite things about seed, especially in light of everything that was discussed last week at the US Open with the USGA is that their founders are very much pro rollback. They have enough confidence in their ability to create a great product that they aren't worried about a rollback ball. That's pretty unusual among OEMs. And it's one of the many unique reasons that seed golf stands out. So go check them out at seedgolf.co and use the code normal support for 20% off your order there. Thanks to seed for sponsoring this show, our newsletter, our entire company. And yeah, go check them out. OK, Joel, we'll go through these quickly because I want to get to the questions and then yell at each other at the end. But three least favorite parts of the PJ tours propose I'll go first. I think-- and I don't know if this is a least favorite, but you're not going to get stuff like Scotty, Schuffler, Plain, and at the Byron Nelson anymore. And that's just-- that is part of the deal. Like that is something that you-- there's trade-offs. Somebody wrote-- maybe you wrote this about how they're trade-offs in. That's just one of the trade-offs is if you want clarity about championship track and challenger track, then you're not going to get Jordan's speed at-- well, you might get Jordan's speed at the Byron Nelson. But you're not going to get some of these guys that are from these places playing in their hometown tournament. And somebody brought this up-- again, I can't remember who-- but that becomes maybe even more of a problem when you talk about home countries. Like if the Irish Open is part of this eventually, or the Scottish Open, or the Spanish Open, and John Rom, literally can't put-- if he's ever back-- can't play in that event. Like, I-- I kind of sucks. Like, I don't know what to do about that. So that's just one of my least favorite parts about-- I understand it, but I just don't love it. I'm not disagreeing. I will say there's one caveat. And this is just from a few conversations with multiple people. I think national opens will be treated differently going forward. They didn't think it out how. Because I think what you saw the week before Shinnokok at the Canadian Open, people were going, well, what's it's a track, too? You're not going to have four or five Canadians be able to play. The upshot was that it was elevated to that. There's an extra 20 Canadians who get into other ways I wouldn't be able to play. So how do you balance that? So I think-- I do think-- I think there's a couple of ideas. So I do think national opens will be treated differently. I agree. It's an unfortunate thing, but it is just a trade off. There's going to be certain guys who can't play certain events. I'll kind of offer that. I will say, seeking events that kind of are lost. I understand the fiscal reasons why. But it's still a bummer to me that we're starting and super far on the Super Bowl. I really love the January in Hawaii. It was just such an easy start of the year. It was someone that lives in the Northeast, kind of seeing the Pacific at eight o'clock in midnight. It was just like this in Athens let it get through the winter. And of course, that really had some character, too. And yeah, it's just-- again, I understand why. I know Tori Pines will be a fine film when-- that's where it'll start going forward. But it's just-- I just wonder, are you really messing with it too much starting? And the first or second week of January, right? Then February 1. So that was kind of one of my first ones. Yeah. Well, I think I was making this case last week to Hayden Martin, who is co-host with me sometimes. But golf, to me, is the best version of the PJ Tour happens January through April, probably. And then, again, this is a personal preference. May to August is a little more hit and miss. You've got some great stuff in there. But I think part of the reason is because there's more stuff for us to do in May through August. It's summertime. You're traveling. You've got go to the pool, kids, whatever. And if your product is-- if a lot of your revenue that's generated is from a TV product, which is true, then man, there's not a-- I don't know that there's a better time to have that on than January through March. That's such a prime golf watching time. And I don't know. Maybe that's just my opinion. I don't know if that's backed up by any kind of data that is meaningful. But I totally agree with you there. And I was wondering, could you-- and I understand the aversion of competing with football. Is there any world, though, where you go, yeah, OK, we're going to play this Tuesday through Friday, then. And we're just going to own the Thursday and Friday nights. We're going to air this from 6 to 10, and really-- you play on the West Coast. And not rolling that out. I just-- yeah, that's just one I wish they would maybe give a second look. And maybe they will down the road. It's like that's the one thing. Everything is still on the table. But I just-- I hope that comes back in some capacity. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I really-- this just felt like a mule concession. The last chance for pitch events in the fall. I had this one, too. Yeah, I don't quite get that. I would even-- if you had one of it or put those guys in some type of queue school, I think that's fine. But like 4 to 6 seems like a lot. And it kind of makes me wondered, depending on how that field is made up, what are the avenues back to guys who, at the top, whatever 20 fall out of the Champions League? Are they able to immediately get it right back? That doesn't seem right. It feels like it could undercut what the whole promotion relegation is. It does seem that's another one of those things over. All right. We want to have something about how many people ultimately get up. So yeah, I guess in theory, I'm not in love with that. Yeah, so this is my second one also. But for anybody that's confused about this, there's what's called-- I think it's the last chance series. I don't know if that's an official name, but Roaap referenced it. And especially, you're going to have a segment of players that are being relegated from the championship track. And then also a segment of players that are, I think, close to being promoted from the challenger track. And they'll play in this last chance fall series. And then I don't know the numbers. I don't think they know the numbers. But some amount of those people will end up on the championship series. And it's like the last chance, you just had 24 chances. I think that's kind of it. You should have to play. That one to me felt-- I didn't love that. It felt like too much of a cushion for guys from the championship track that are potentially falling out. So yeah, I wasn't in love with that. And my third one in terms of least favorite parts was-- and I think this could very easily be argued either way. I don't know if I'm in love with the idea of going to new venues. And my argument for this was-- and this is maybe unfair, but derailed this year. I know it's not a new, new venue, but it's new-ish. And it sucked. And I think that-- I've made this argument on this podcast before. But why not just turn the John Deere into a championship track and just say, hey, all our best players are going there? Because-- and what I'm the reason I'm saying that is because you've already got so many people that go to that. It's a huge deal for people in that area. You've got good crowds. It's a big thing. Is it a good golf course? No. Is there a great venue? Probably not. Is it a little bit hard to get to? Probably for media or whatever. But I don't know. I guess the way I'll say it is, I'm very wary of going to these new prestigious venues. Because I don't know that I trust the PGA tour to really nail that, given their history and track record with picking some of these menus that they've gone to. Yeah, it's interesting we were discussing this on the week of travelers, right? Like a very quirky course in the middle of nowhere Connecticut and yet it's like kind of looked at as like one of the paradigm of things. It's awesome. In terms of the fans and like players love it. Like it's one of their favorite events. And also one of their favorites events is Heritage, right? In Hilton head. So like you can have very successful events. I, you know, quote unquote small markets. So like that. I'm kind of with you on that. I guess I had a little bit more hope, although I had that more as like a three question thing. But yeah, like you better, if you're going to these new markets, man, you better nail it and not just, you know, one big mark off of the second big market. And kind of that, like my kind of third thing I didn't like. And I understand why because it yesterday was a general concept. It was very light on details and they had to be light on details because they're still working out and be. It would be a PR nightmare to say these are the tournaments and then in 28 and then you go forward in 27 as like a lame duck tournament. Like I could see pulling it out of like you guys broke a contract or, you know, I understand why it's just like. We are still talking a lot of theoretical is for the next seven, eight months. And that part like. I know they've had only a year, but it's also for us who've been like talking about this even longer before. Previous or we started it just is like we're so close and yet like we still don't have a lot of concrete details. So I would, you know, a little bit more actual hard, you know, actual hard details rather than like, well, this is what this person says and this term is directly. But well, I know we'll get there. It's just more, I think it's just more of a man. We're so close and it's just it's hard to hard to wait. They're putting a podcast fodder for the next year or so. Okay, three questions that we had. I'll go through. I'll give you a couple of mine because I don't want to have already taken up a lot of your time. But, um, and these are details, right? Like these are things that were not laid out in what was talked about on Tuesday. But one of them is what do we do with injured players? We're all sort of mentioned this briefly from what I saw. What if, you know, speed is, we keep using speed. Let's use some, JT was out for the beginning of this year. How is his situation handled? What if somebody has to miss five months from March to September or August or whatever? That's pretty interesting because when you talk about the Premier League and relegation and promotion and all this stuff, it's like, sorry, man. Like you're just hurt. But golf is different. And the other thing that I heard, Roeapp said that I was like, uh, was talking about career achievements. Like we're going to have some exemptions for guys with the career because I always think of, uh, purple mamba. What's, uh, what's his name? He was on the, you know what I'm talking about? Some reason I'll like keep going as to JJ Henry right now. Yeah, yeah, JJ Henry. Yeah, that's it. He got all these starts because he made like 300 cuts or whatever and you're like, what are we doing? Like we can't have that. And so that one concerned me, uh, a little bit as well. And then a second one I had was, can you get from the, so if you say championship is the top, uh, challenger is the second. And then corn fairy is theoretically under that. Can you get from the corn fairy to the championship in one year? Or do you go to the challenger? Or do you get like, how does that work? And then the third one kind of related, uh, is what are the college pathways? If you're, if you are first or second in PJ two or you, is that straight to, uh, challenger? Is it straight to championship? Is it straight to corn? Like I don't, I'm curious about all that because I think there's a way to handle the college stuff that is actually like really beneficial to your product moving forward because now you have some real, uh, sort of on ramps into this system. Uh, uh, and, and, uh, or you have more on ramps into the system to where you're not just sending a bunch of guys to the corn fairy. Now you can send them to like the Byron Nelson or the John D or whatever ends up being the challenger track. And I think there's some real opportunity for the tour to create a college pathway that's actually really interesting. So I don't know, those are three, three of the ones that I had. It's fine because I was thinking, you know, college was the biggest one for me because like, you don't want to throttle like, let's say like Lou big, right? Like how hot he was. I mean, Lou, he went from college to the right or cup and said, and I was wondering like, is there something of like giving him like some, or giving like, let's say a stud half starts on the champions, like once he comes out of college and then like, hey, in case that goes bad, then like you are still allowed to play the challenger the next year as like some type of, uh, safety net. But yeah, like the college one, like you have to allow these like hot shots, you know, like, Ron was like that too. Like they have to get up to the top. It's quickly as possible. If they're that good, you can't just like waste away a year. If they, if they can prove it, uh, well, like, Coven, Coven's a good example right now. He's coming out. He's turning pro, but he wasn't number one on PJ true you because PJ true you used for seniors, right? That was Ben James. And so what do you do with, but he also had the, uh, I forgot what I always forget what it's called, but the exemption because he got the 20 points. Yeah. PJ true, you never, I don't know, whatever the thing was. And so there's just all these different things that you're like, okay, well, what does that get this guy? Where does that guy go? If he, I don't, I'm curious and I'm very anticipatory about what they do with those college pathways. Yeah, I would say in terms of remaining questions, I would have to be eight, like one of the top five or six because that's even though it's like not many people, it's a pretty important funnel that you still got to make sure it's on. The injured one, like I'm not too worried about, I think there's enough exemptions out there that you could probably like, you look at like the medical's year and year out, there's not that many of the applies to it. It's smaller than you think. Now, I think it seems bigger because in the past, so many guys have abused them and spread them out for so long. I think done right? Like there are certain safety nets you can apply in case there's a JT in case, the Zander was pretty beat up most of last year, right? Yeah. Going to major. So I think maybe that's where if like if you win a major, do you get a couple more years exemption? I think that's what he was kind of referencing in terms of the, you know, the career lifetime stuff, right? And like, all right, you've won 20 now. You're just a lifetime number of that tour. That's like the leap of how I read it. In terms of my questions, I mean, we mentioned it a couple of times, but like you can't the tour secure these procedure venues. Like that kind of the whole thing rides on that at this point. The, I mean, certainly the postseason does, right? But I mean, if you're going to have all this turnover just in, as they mentioned yesterday, there's going to be essentially if you take the majors out, you take the playoffs, you take the players, there's going to be basically 15 regular season events, right? Is it them locked up? I get the sense they like want to go to some places they haven't been to yet to fill out those other five. So that's the case. Like again, you better not be going to these like very so, so pedestrian courses like and to again, to his credit roll up seems like he understands the importance of going to good venues. Well, but you make that promise, you've really better followed up. And it's, you, it's that that's just again, I think a lot of people expressed down on yesterday. I think it'd be a little bit more optimistic than that, but like it's still a question mark. I just still get worried. And I think that's almost being a prisoner though to like the past regime. So like, I'm trying a bit a bit more leeway. The, by the way, the markets that we mentioned were Boston, Denver, New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Seattle, and Washington. And I guess look, like there's plenty of opportunity there to go to cool places. I think that my entire point there is like, man, travelers already is awesome. RBC heritage is awesome. Like are you, are you, are you chasing something that may or may not exist when you already have something in place that's like, could just fill the void quote unquote of that championship series. And I don't know, it remains to be seen. I mean, if you, if you go to some more awesome and in Denver and it like is, like lights out, gray crowds, gray cough course, then okay, cool, but like that's awesome. But I just, I'm worried about it. Like I'm, I'm worried about that. I'm, it's a concern of mine going forward. Yeah, no, I'm with you. I just, yeah, I think we can just mark that as like, just cautiously optimistic. Yeah. But one that like, I mean, it was briefly mentioned yesterday. He just had no appetite for answering, which I think was the right response, giving the venue, but like, very, very good chance in two months here. Live is done. And you're going to have some of this guys back like what types of avenues they have backed this like, are you going to really put them on the corn fairy? That being said, like, challenge, like weirdly, like the challenge where he even seems like kind of generous to some of these guys because like, you really look at the names and so few of these guys would actually still have status. You could argue with, yeah, that's on this, right? But like, you know, are you really going to put ROM down the challenger? I mean, maybe, right? What do you do it like again? It's very to his credit. I think he, he, the, the stance I've got is, I gave these guys their chance when Capco came back, Capco wanted to come back. These guys now will only be coming back because they have nowhere else to go. So maybe you do put them down there and like, that I also kind of bumped up the challenger, right? If you have ramen, Bryson playing there, but I also get the sense of like, he, that is the last thing from his mind at the moment. it. But it's going to be a question coming up shortly. And then we've kind of danced around it too, but like just match play could be great if it's done the right way. Just like you I do worry if it's utilized in that first event like is this going to be like actually a bit of a disaster like it kind of has to go right. How many how rough the FedEx cup has been for 20 years? Like you really get this first playoff right? So like if you're using match play like it's got to be done well. And that that's kind of where the venues come in. So I think a venue can really fill in some of those gaps on match play. But like that's just kind of my one big question. We are rightfully excited, but I think we should be maybe a little bit more just cautious about it than we probably should be. Yeah, I would say venue and presentation of the product by your TV partner. Like that is it's really it's hard to do match play. It really is. Especially when you only have you know you get to the semi or the championship it's tough. It really I mean that's the part that I've always thought you should not narrow it down to just one match at the end. It should be eight eight matches going on and you're playing for money. Like at that point like you know guys are like tired. They're sick of golf whatever. Okay well this is this is where you earn your money. And so that keeps their interest right? And it gives you as the television partner an opportunity to bounce around and check on different matches and present a product that is compelling rather than just trying to fill. I mean we've seen this the thing in the fall with the match. It's 90% people just walking around and you're like this is so boring. You have to have golf going on and yeah I'm just I'm I'm curious about that. I think there's I mean no secret here but there's a reason match play went away because broadcast hated it like they lose last couple years and they're like good. I was about like like you just mentioned there's a lot of dead time and you know just showing guys walking so like I think I can I I have given that roll-ups background is media. I have no doubt he can figure it out but like it just has to be a little bit better than what it was. Yeah my last thing I know I already did my three but my last thing is what's the minimum requirement for players to play? That might be a Rory question or Scotty question more than anything else because Rory clearly doesn't care about what you think about his schedule or what the minimum requirements are or whatever like okay find me like it doesn't I'm playing what I'm gonna play and I think I think for him chasing major championships like of course like that's the that's the path you should go down. I think Scotty is the same. I mean he talked about this at Memorial like the the tax of playing right before major championship and how much that took out of him and you know those guys are on a different planet than most of these guys so it's a it's a very very select few that this question even applies to but I am curious about you know what the requirements are how much guys have to play and all that I think that's going to be something that's pretty interesting to the general golf public that wants to see those guys yeah it'll be interesting like I will say like I I do think Rory not to like the if not that he needs defense on this but like most of the top players throughout their career have kind of done the same type of schedule cadence that Rory right now I mean you forget how little tiger played before 2008 so like I I understand people want to see him and we don't they can kind of sound off but like I don't know man like I'm with you it's like just I want him right for the majors like if he pops up elsewhere like great but like he's he's only defined by these four weeks of this point that doesn't mean what happens elsewhere doesn't matter but like ultimately this is and he rightfully understands that and like I don't really get some mistake or a coincidence I should say that we've seen such incredible golf from him over the last four or five years on that on that platform and yeah I think there's a there's a cemetery there yeah no I I agree I just I think it's you and I are on the same page of like what he should or shouldn't do I think he's doing the right thing in terms of his legacy and and what he wants it's just a the it's a it's a PGA tour problem more than anything because they don't it's like best players best events well you're you're missing like your two best guys this you know like that that part is that's hard like that's that's going to be a hard one for them to to figure out okay last thing make your case why is this a huge sort of transformative thing for the PGA tour because I argued yesterday that it wasn't I'm again maybe coming around a little bit to that it is but just yeah state your case on that yeah I think to me if you want to build back from we finally could have an interesting meaningful postseason which to be at that point give the rest the regular season some much need to juice but honestly at the heart it's just like it really seems like not only from rollout but throughout the tour and I think this has been voiced throughout the past 10 months is like the fans have been through so much the past five years and we just assume they would always be here for it and that they'll be able to put up with anything and that like you know like the true fans will stay there and like that is not been like the from the assertion roll up has been like we cannot assume this anymore like they like you cannot like they are not just like they have to be the consideration of everything we do I think all these changes even though there are so many different voices from the players and sponsorships like ultimately do fans want to see this or not and I think like having them finally having fans finally present in that thinking like to me like makes all this yes like because of the details that bag and we can kind of extrapolate in certain ways that maybe it's not there but like the idea that they're gonna make this fan friendly probably the first time or forever really gives me hope and like I'm not trying to attach any type of like moral equivalence to it because ultimately it's good for business right like a fans are happy it's gonna be good for the bottom line but like that was just something that has never been there it was always I want to thank the the players membership the people at like our sponsor the fans were never mentioned right those broadcast partners and like it's I think rule out understands that like the fans are make they make all this go ultimately they are the most important constituency like they under and they've also been ignored so like let's make them feel welcome and let's give them something that they want to see and I think that's kind of what the framework was yesterday I have like this is if you kind of go through golf twitter last five years and summarize it this is kind of what people have won it yeah I think it's not a mistake so I think that's what gives me hope of they're taking a lot of the best parts of some of the bigger concepts we have and like implying and like there's also this thing of yeah we're still figuring this out but like we're figuring this out for you we're not figuring this out for the players not figuring this out to like appease a certain sponsor like we're doing this because we we think this will be ultimately what you want and yeah I think gives me that's what I think this is this so big it's that being the outsider there's no like the past signature events right like everything was still coupled to the past like this have been got it because well it's jack's turn that's a jacket there they ill like there's none of that it's like what is the what is going to be the best thing going forward and people are going to probably be upset at certain things and understandably so but I do think as you mentioned at the top like roll ups only concern is like is this going to be good next year and is it going to be something that that sustains time and something we can be proud of and I think that's I know that sounds mockish but like I also don't think that means it's not true and just having that type of vision and having the more importantly engine behind it I think that's why this is such a big big deal for golf fans yeah yeah it's a good point I think for me I was reacting when I said that it these are not huge changes I was reacting to some reports that players were unhappy I saw Rex hoggard had something on that Lucas Glover was kind of talking about like if I think he said if people are unhappy or there was just there was some chatter around that and I'm looking at it and saying like guys like one this is necessary to sustain the PJ tree in the long term you can't just keep adding you know we didn't even talk about it but like lowering the purse for a lot of these events is I think financially sustainable more financially sustainable in the long term but two these are not from my perspective if you're a player you already knew most of this like you already knew that the John Deere wasn't as good as the memorial now does my dad my dad's probably bad example does like a random golf fan know that the memorial and the John Deere are are vastly different tournaments maybe not you know because they're both on CBS and they're both in on a Sunday and they both have professional you know whatever and so I but from a from a media perspective and a player perspective it's like things are being organized and called something different and really I do think the organization the more I've thought about it like how organized it all is does matter and the different tracks poor off was making this argument the different tracks they do matter and so I'm coming around a little bit to this being a big deal but to me from a player perspective it's like you guys already knew all this like it's not it's not like a it's not a massive sea change based on like what you've experienced over the last five or 10 years so I think I was saying or looking at it from a player perspective and saying like not a massive deal but I I can I think I can get to your side a little bit of like I wouldn't be surprised if We will look back. in five or 10 years and say like, okay, that organization of all of this was a transformative time for professional golf and for the PGA tour. And the reason why you're hearing some put back, it's where it's coming from. It is not top 50 guys. It is the guys who were either in their late 30s, early 40s, and assume they would have a 25 career, 25 year career, or a longer runaway. And it's like, if you're a top 70 player, like things are probably going to get better for you. It's like in that 75 to like 200 range where you're not going to be making 3 million just being very average to like not create your job. And like I understood like, in one of the suns, it doesn't feel right, commenting on our people's livelihood. But like, man, like, I grew up with a lot of guys who at the end of the fell, like they made two or three years. And like, that's like the average shelf life for an NFL player. Like, yes, you can make a lot more money there. But like, if you're really going to go off, you can make a lot more money and you can do it for a really long time. That's not even counting the champions tour, golden parachute that exists. So like, I don't understand. Like, I get it. Like, the way of things are changing, but like, that doesn't mean just because how they were, like how they should be. And like, you just don't just be being like the 100th golfer in the world. It doesn't mean you should get like a 30 year career making, you know, 4 million bucks. Like, I think that's where a lot of the opposition is coming from. And then maybe like a few guys are kind of sounding off via like a certain sponsor or, or, or, or, oh, you haven't pushed, but like, yeah, all the guys I talked to yesterday, now I'm granite. Like, it's trailers is a signature event. So like, they are the top golfers. They all seem pretty like, yeah, like this all seems good to us. Like, and they have a lot of faith and keep Mitchell, who was kind of like one of the bigger guys behind the scenes, pushing a lot of things. And they feel really good with roll app. Like, that's kind of not to speak for every guy, but like, I think that was a general vibe yesterday. Yeah. I'm just thinking about Keith Mitchell walking into a meeting with that hat hair and the just disheveled look that he had at the US open. Yeah. I mean, look, like if if there was nobody that was upset, then it probably wouldn't be a very good plan. I think it's good that you have trade-offs and they've, they've chosen what they've, you know, what they deemed the most important thing. And that's going to frustrate some guys. And I think it frustrates the right constituents based on what I think is the best playing going forward is like, yeah, we're not going to pay out $10 million at the 3M anymore. Like that's not a sustainable thing. And yeah, so I think that, I think that matters. And I think some of this remains to be seen, right? Like it remains to be seen whether the new markets and the new courses and the pathways like all paying out and, you know, there's still a lot of details to be filled in. I think, go for all, like I, my stance has been like, I'm, I am for all these things. Get rid of sponsor exemptions. Get like, I think the word used was stratify all this out. I just didn't feel like it was this and maybe I don't know that player, I don't know that a lot of players are making it into a massive deal. I just didn't feel like it was a massive deal when you're looking at it from a player perspective. I think one thing you mentioned earlier, you know, that like when you saw the release, like I think not just the Tories, people in general, like the pressure releases, you know, I always jump to live of like, announcing like, plans like grandeur that turned out to be nothing. I feel like the poor uply underplayed it. Like how, how big it was. Now part of that was, I think the initial goal was to announce a lot of this stuff in March and then just given again, so many people that were involved in this, they just got delayed for I think reasons I don't understandable. But yeah, I think if March doesn't happen in like, hey, this is where, this is where they're announcing it. I think we'd all be like, whoa, this is a lot. And this is like all fruit build and kind of, you know, like it's not perfect. But like I think this is a good is a plan that we have ever seen from the Tories standpoint. And yeah, I just continue to be impressed. Now with roll up, it's some of the people he's brought in, some of the people he, that have been at the tour that have their voices maybe haven't had the platform or weren't amplified under previous regimes. It just seems like the people rolling the tour now. I mean, roll up aside as a guy who is not necessarily going to offer a lot of people are golf fans at the PGA tour. And that's something that like, I don't think we could have said four or five years ago, it was more like business folks who happened to be working for a ball. And I think that's very important, like working other sports, I can tell you folks with the NBA, love the NBA, definitely at baseball, that's the case. I don't think in 2019 you could necessarily say that about the PGA tour, but now you can't, I mean, discounted smart and I mean, smart and ticked. Hate's libraries, hate's golf. I do think there is, let me be clear about loving the thing that you were working on. And that now applies to the PGA tour for so many different people involved. Yeah, that's well said. And a good place to end. Joel, thanks for your time, man. This was always fun, Chatten. Had a great time chatting with you just in private at the US Open and hanging out there and doing it publicly here is a ton of fun as well. So good luck. I think you got a big tournament coming up this weekend. Might be playing against some other media members that we know. So that's the vlog there. Thanks to seed golf for sponsoring the podcast today and for supporting normal sport in general. And yeah, we'll talk to you again later on.