Speaker 1everywhere i go airports events walking down the street people stop me and say lewis this show got me through one of the hardest seasons of my life and it's one of the coolest things when people come up to me so if you see me please come up and say hi and let me know how this show the school of greatness has impacted you it lights me up because our mission at greatness media is to impact 100 million lives every single week so if today's conversation hits home for you do me a favor and push the follow button right now it means that the next conversation will be delivered to you and will find you exactly when you need it again thank you so much for being here and listening to the school of greatness make sure to follow right now to stay up to date on the latest and greatest welcome back everyone to the school of greatness i am very excited about our guest dr robert cialdini is in the house good to see you sir how you doing
Speaker 2i'm well lewis good to be with you and uh your followers yes i'm very
Speaker 1excited about this for those that have been following me for a long time um i read your book influence i think it was in 2009 when i read it maybe it's 2008 2009 and within months literally within months my business started to take off my community started to grow and opportunities started to flood my way and i remember people telling me in the online marketing world you've got to read this book as i started to kind of launch my online marketing business in 2008 2009 and i started to implement a few key principles that you have laid out in your book and again within weeks and months things started to come in and so i'd love to go over some of these principles first for people who haven't read your book there's been over five million copies sold so people need to get the book and go through it but for for those who haven't read it i'd love to go into it and then talk about the i guess it's the next principle that you've uh i'm going to go into it and then talk about the i guess it's the next principle that you've uh, i'd love to go into it and then talk about the i guess it's the next principle that you've um discovered in in the expanded version of the book uh so i'd love to go over each one of these if you're if you're okay with with going into that and also how you discovered these principles as main factors of influence what was the basis for the research the studies i know you have hundreds of peer-reviewed studies that kind of back and prove these things but and and kind of go through it so the the first one which is i think uh is reciprocity reciprocation i guess you call it yeah why is that it's kind of like the old give and take you know let me give you something and then you want to give me something in return how did that come about as a main i guess law of of influence for you well you know
Speaker 2it came about in the way that all of them did which was um that i decided i needed to get out of my laboratory and off my college campus to really uh you know to get out of my laboratory and off my college campus to really uh you know to get out of my laboratory and off my college campus to really understand what were the factors that moved people to really understand what were the factors that moved people powerfully and consistently powerfully and consistently powerfully and consistently in the direction of a communicator's in the direction of a communicator's in the direction of a communicator's request or proposal request or proposal request or proposal recommendation and i did it by answer recommendation and i did it by answer recommendation and i did it by answer answering ads for answering ads for answering ads for um to be uh trained to be trained um to be uh trained to be trained um to be uh trained to be trained in any of the major influence professions in any of the major influence professions in any of the major influence professions of our society i took training in how to of our society i took training in how to of our society i took training in how to sell automobiles how to sell insurance sell automobiles how to sell insurance sell automobiles how to sell insurance how to sell portrait how to sell portrait how to sell portrait photography over the phone photography over the phone photography over the phone but i didn't stop there i also did the but i didn't stop there i also did the but i didn't stop there i also did the same thing same thing same thing infiltrated training programs incognito infiltrated training programs incognito infiltrated training programs incognito disguised identity disguised intent disguised identity disguised intent disguised identity disguised intent they didn't know why i was there i was they didn't know why i was there i was they didn't know why i was there i was there to learn what they there to learn what they there to learn what they had learned over decades and decades had learned over decades and decades had learned over decades and decades of what moves people in their direction of what moves people in their direction of what moves people in their direction so i did that with fundraisers so i did that with fundraisers so i did that with fundraisers i did it with recruiters i even did it i did it with recruiters i even did it i did it with recruiters i even did it with cult with cult with cult uh specialists how do the cults get us uh specialists how do the cults get us uh specialists how do the cults get us to move into their to move into their to move into their their orbit and keep us there their orbit and keep us there their orbit and keep us there uh and what i looked for were the uh and what i looked for were the uh and what i looked for were the commonalities commonalities commonalities what worked across all of those various what worked across all of those various what worked across all of those various influence professions influence professions influence professions whose economic livelihood after all whose economic livelihood after all whose economic livelihood after all depends on the success of getting people depends on the success of getting people depends on the success of getting people to say yes to to to them and what i found just shocked me them and what i found just shocked me them and what i found just shocked me in how small the footprint was in how small the footprint was in how small the footprint was i only counted six universal principles i only counted six universal principles i only counted six universal principles of influence that seem to work in each of influence that seem to work in each of influence that seem to work in each of those domains of those domains of those domains to move people and the first one to move people and the first one to move people and the first one as you rightly suggested was the rule as you rightly suggested was the rule as you rightly suggested was the rule for reciprocation for reciprocation for reciprocation that says people feel that says people feel that says people feel a drive to give back to others who a drive to give back to others who a drive to give back to others who have first given to them have first given to them have first given to them right so there are a lot there are a lot right so there are a lot there are a lot right so there are a lot there are a lot of different ways that we can of different ways that we can of different ways that we can move people in our direction one is move people in our direction one is move people in our direction one is if people see that they owe us they say if people see that they owe us they say if people see that they owe us they say yes to us they say yes to the next yes to us they say yes to the next yes to us they say yes to the next request we make of them request we make of them request we make of them so what it means is that we have to go so what it means is that we have to go so what it means is that we have to go first first first we have to give benefits we have to give we have to give benefits we have to give we have to give benefits we have to give information we have to give advantages information we have to give advantages information we have to give advantages we have to give concessions we have to give concessions we have to give concessions and that come that flows back to us by and that come that flows back to us by the rule that exists in every human the rule that exists in every human the rule that exists in every human culture turns out the anthropologists culture turns out the anthropologists culture turns out the anthropologists have shown us have shown us have shown us there's not a single human society that there's not a single human society that there's not a single human society that fails to train fails to train fails to train it's it's youth it's it's youth it's it's youth in this rule you must not take without in this rule you must not take without in this rule you must not take without giving in return giving in return giving in return so what it tells me is that we have to so what it tells me is that we have to so what it tells me is that we have to flip the flip the flip the script of the usual business arrangement script of the usual business arrangement script of the usual business arrangement with people where we say to them with people where we say to them with people where we say to them you do something for us first you buy you do something for us first you buy you do something for us first you buy my product you sign my contract you make my product you sign my contract you make my product you sign my contract you make a a a an agreement with me a commitment to me an agreement with me a commitment to me an agreement with me a commitment to me and then i will give back to you and then i will give back to you and then i will give back to you what i i hope you will accept what i i hope you will accept what i i hope you will accept this one says yeah that's fine but this one says yeah that's fine but this one says yeah that's fine but there's another route where we go first there's another route where we go first there's another route where we go first we give we give we give and then people want and then people want and then people want by this rule to give to us by this rule to give to us by this rule to give to us there's a lovely study that was it's there's a lovely study that was it's there's a lovely study that was it's not even published yet not even published yet not even published yet conducted in mcdonald's restaurants in conducted in mcdonald's restaurants in conducted in mcdonald's restaurants in colombia and brazil so you know in south colombia and brazil so you know in south colombia and brazil so you know in south america america america where they did a promotion one week where they did a promotion one week where they did a promotion one week every family that came in the kids got a every family that came in the kids got a every family that came in the kids got a balloon balloon balloon as a nice thank you for coming in half of as a nice thank you for coming in half of as a nice thank you for coming in half of them them them got the balloon as they were leaving got the balloon as they were leaving got the balloon as they were leaving each of the kids got a balloon thank you each of the kids got a balloon thank you each of the kids got a balloon thank you for you know patronizing mcdonald's for you know patronizing mcdonald's for you know patronizing mcdonald's please come again please come again please come again the other half got the balloon as they the other half got the balloon as they entered those families
Speaker 1entered those families entered those families
Speaker 2sales went up yeah 25 sales went up yeah 25 sales went up yeah 25 more food wow more food wow more food wow now here's
Speaker 1the thing for a balloon a now here's the thing for a balloon a now here's the thing for a balloon a simple little 10 cent balloon for a
Speaker 2simple little 10 cent balloon for a
Speaker 1simple little 10 cent balloon for a balloon
Speaker 2balloon balloon now here's the thing i love about that now here's the thing i love about that now here's the thing i love about that if you look into the data closely if you look into the data closely if you look into the data closely that 25 that 25 that 25 increase in increase in increase in buy buy buy included 20 included 20 higher higher higher coffee orders the kids weren't offering coffee orders the kids weren't offering coffee orders the kids weren't offering getting the coffee getting the coffee getting the coffee the parents were the parents were the parents were the the parents were grateful the the parents were grateful the the parents were grateful for what their kids got and they were for what their kids got and they were for what their kids got and they were going to buy more going to buy more going to buy more this has to do with the last principle this has to do with the last principle this has to do with the last principle that we'll talk about later the that we'll talk about later the that we'll talk about later the principle of unity principle of unity principle of unity but here's the takeaway but here's the takeaway but here's the takeaway any favor you do for my child you have any favor you do for my child you have any favor you do for my child you have done for me
Speaker 1done for me done for me interesting you make my child happy i'm interesting you make my child happy i'm interesting you make my child happy i'm happier and i want to thank you happier and i want to thank you happier and i want to thank you and i'm good that's right i'm not just
Speaker 2and i'm good that's right i'm not just and i'm good that's right i'm not just thankful i'm thankful i'm thankful i'm obligated obligated obligated i'm i'm both grateful and obligated by i'm i'm both grateful and obligated by i'm i'm both grateful and obligated by this rule to this rule to this rule to to give in return why do we feel
Speaker 1yeah why do we feel this obligation is yeah why do we feel this obligation is yeah why do we feel this obligation is it it it trained culturally or society is it trained culturally or society is it trained culturally or society is it kind of innate in our human dna or our kind of innate in our human dna or our kind of innate in our human dna or our psychology or the way our brain works psychology or the way our brain works psychology or the way our brain works the chemistry the chemistry the chemistry why are we why do we feel obligated to why are we why do we feel obligated to why are we why do we feel obligated to give something in return when someone give something in return when someone give something in return when someone gives something to us
Speaker 2gives something to us gives something to us because the first of your uh candidates because the first of your uh candidates because the first of your uh candidates i think is the is the major one that we i think is the is the major one that we i think is the is the major one that we are socialized from childhood into this are socialized from childhood into this are socialized from childhood into this rule rule rule because because because that rule if it exists in any culture that rule if it exists in any culture that rule if it exists in any culture makes the culture thrive makes the culture thrive makes the culture thrive because people give back and forth they because people give back and forth they because people give back and forth they they it allows them to to they it allows them to to they it allows them to to be specialized in a particular area be specialized in a particular area be specialized in a particular area where they can have an input and then where they can have an input and then where they can have an input and then somebody gives them something that they somebody gives them something that they somebody gives them something that they don't have don't have don't have in their particular area and it also in their particular area and it also in their particular area and it also allows people to allows people to allows people to cooperate toward a common goal cooperate toward a common goal cooperate toward a common goal if this rule didn't exist if this rule didn't exist if this rule didn't exist why would i ever give something first to why would i ever give something first to why would i ever give something first to you you you right with the risk of losing it right right with the risk of losing it right right with the risk of losing it right for the first time in evolutionary for the first time in evolutionary for the first time in evolutionary history now history now history now there's a rule that allows us to give there's a rule that allows us to give there's a rule that allows us to give something without giving it away something without giving it away something without giving it away we don't give it away it comes back to we don't give it away it comes back to we don't give it away it comes back to us us us and so we're now freed to begin and so we're now freed to begin and so we're now freed to begin economic exchanges that require that we economic exchanges that require that we economic exchanges that require that we trust the other person will not just trust the other person will not just trust the other person will not just take this take this take this so you know in in every human language so you know in in every human language so you know in in every human language we have very nasty names we have very nasty names we have very nasty names for people who take without giving in for people who take without giving in for people who take without giving in return return return and we don't want to be saddled with and we don't want to be saddled with and we don't want to be saddled with those names i know in england we call them moochers right
Speaker 1yeah i've been that in my life when i had no money and i was broke and i was sleeping on my sister's couch for about a year and a half i was a moocher because i was like uh and it doesn't feel good you know mooching off my sister eating her food you know not paying rent not working and i was like that's when i started to study your work and you can't be a
Speaker 2moocher you can't wait i mean you're on the balls of your feet waiting to get in a position to help in return when she might need something
Speaker 1oh and that's that's all i wanted to do is constantly give back it's it's funny because i was talking about this a couple days ago actually for the last i don't know eight years i feel very uncomfortable when i go to dinner or lunch or coffee with someone i feel very uncomfortable for them paying for me i almost always pay almost always unless someone is like somehow sneaks their credit card in before me with you know with the waiter or something and it's because for almost two years i couldn't like everyone else had to pay for me and i feel i i feel obligated to pay the debt back isn't
Speaker 2that interesting i feel
Speaker 1obligated it's been a decade and i still feel like ah i just need to keep paying and paying like i feel the obligation and you know i don't feel bad about it it just feels hard to receive because i know that was a mooch for almost two years and uh you know you're i i believe you're close with adam grant who talks about this in his book give and take and then there's another book called gift by john ruling i'm not sure if you've heard of
Speaker 2giftology of those i've read and recommend
Speaker 1yeah the principles of kind of giving first and not waiting for someone to buy but giving first i'm curious in the online marketing world where it seems like every website is trying to give you something to opt in is there ever too much uh saturation of giving where people are diminishes the opportunity to connect or someone to opt in in or to buy is there ever kind of too much saturation where it uh numbs us or is this
Speaker 2always going to work well it it is diminished where we don't see the gift as something genuine but just as a device that you give to everybody it's not you don't you're not trying to benefit me you're trying to just get me to feel obligated so for me there's good evidence on this it the more we can personalize what we give the more people feel like they really want to give back and uh here's another study that shows that it's also in a fast food restaurant people came into the shop and half of them were greeted warmly and then went to the counter another group of them was given a gift a little uh key ring a nice expensive key ring right and the third group was given a small cup of yogurt now those who were given the key ring bought 12 more food than those who weren't given anything just as we said right but those given the yogurt bought 24 more food why is that why do you go to a restaurant because you're hungry you're hungry so if you give me some food you i've personalized the gift to your challenges your needs what you prefer in that moment and i double wow your likelihood so
Speaker 1it's not a random gift it's something you came in for already some hunger i wonder if they did an extra study where it said you get to choose the flavor and it was specialized to you even more i wonder if that how that would
Speaker 2work but that's a that's interesting i don't know i don't know uh there's uh there's another principle of social proof that we'll get to later yes that says if um i let's say it's a dessert it was in a mcdonald's and they have various kinds of uh of uh additions you can put on you know sprinkles or oreos yeah if you if you tell people what the most um popular addition is uh it it raises the willingness to get additions by 45 percent wow so we'll get to that the idea that uh you can ask people and give them an option and tell them in the in the process what a lot of people like them prefer
Speaker 1yes i think yeah i think of c's candy um where you go in they give you a piece of free chocolate like you get to kind of pick the chocolate yeah yeah you're liking it's like yeah i want this piece and they always give a free piece of chocolate to anyone and sometimes they'll give you a couple pieces where it's like now i want to buy more it's just this feeling of obligation of like of course i want to buy and just the fact that you know you can go into the store and get a free piece you could walk out if you want to but just knowing i can go into c's candy store i can get a piece of chocolate i want yeah i'm gonna feel like obligated so i'm gonna do it anyways but um to to to your question how
Speaker 2do you do this online yes how do you personalize well if you have a particular expertise right and you know that people are following you because they want that particular thing you give them something like the top three things you can do to enhance your success on this particular topic in this particular dimension that you're that you're here for here or here are the top five mistakes that people should avoid in in buying insurance or selecting uh you know uh motorcycle parts but whatever it is right it shouldn't be something that specifically enhances your business because that is the is a device now that's just you're just promoting yourself no what will make you a better consumer a better uh reviewer a better uh decision maker in this particular field give that first right people will feel indebted as for that yeah i'm
Speaker 1always of the mindset of like give as much of your best stuff up front for free like give as much value as possible and and let people just be like man this is unbelievable this is the authority which we'll go into a little bit later and when you showcase your value and people realize wow no one else in this space is giving like this i trust this person more i like this person more you know all the things that we're going to talk about here is that i agree
Speaker 2with you on that and there are there are people who argue with me that no no no don't give away your best stuff no no you'll save that wait a minute how do people know what your best stuff is unless you give them a sample of it you got to
Speaker 1give a sample is there a diminishing return based on the season of your gift giving for example it doesn't seem like there is with seize candy when people come in they've been doing this for probably decades where you get a free piece of chocolate but talking about maybe the online marketing world or online business world if you're just giving the same pdf or video series or audio series for three five ten years in a row are there diminishing returns for that season should we be changing up the the give every six to twelve months have you seen any research around
Speaker 2that yes we should because it turns out that what we give if it is new if it is unexpected it increases the likelihood of uh the amount that people give back to us interesting um and uh because it's once again not just the same thing it's it's more personalized it's you've updated it for us so that makes it feel uh you know more um unique
Speaker 1yeah unique and and rare and interesting and all these things yeah um what else around reciprocation should we be aware of that's important for us and is there any downside yeah to to how much you can give like is there yeah you know um i'm spending so much money on this give and it's not working in terms of making me money is there a downside there
Speaker 2well there is a downside and i'll give you an example of what i found is a mistake that people make after they have done something that is truly beneficial to a a group or an audience or an individual let's say an individual you've done something and that person comes back to you and says lewis thank you i can't tell you how important that was for me it was it it really did pull me out of the the problem i was in and i can't and here's what i used to say when people would ah listen don't think anything of it no big deal i would have done you know it's part of the job would have done it for anybody you've just slapped the rule of reciprocity out the window where it dominates that situation you really did go out of your way you really did go above and beyond and you've diminished it so here's what i recommend that you say you say of course i was glad to do it it's what partners do for one another don't forget the addendum for one another oh that's the mistake that people very much of you have to put it on the map you have to acknowledge you don't diminish it you don't dismiss it you know you put it on the map and you say it's what we do for one another that little is on record is ready to give back to you wow now that's for somebody that you've had a relationship it's what friends do it's what partners do for one another a business what if it's somebody who who who who who who you've helped for the first time you don't have a lasting relationship what do you say then here's what i would recommend again i was glad to do it i know that if the situation were ever to be reversed you do the same for me yeah you do the same for me again you've put it up you've put the person on record yes yeah i did do you a favor and i know you're the kind of person who plays by the rules the key is not to say oh i know if the situation had been reversed you would have done the same for me that's in the past that will never happen you say if the situation would be reversed you would do the same for me you're gonna get the next request you ask for wow the
Speaker 1subtle the subtleties of how we communicate are so important in creating the life of our dreams and struggling consistently i think the little nuances you know chris voss who i think you know as well i do talks about this in his work uh never split the difference just the little subtle communication um you know the way we communicate uh the words we use at the specific time can drastically transform our life for good or not for good right and i and i think um we we want to learn how to use these tools the styles ethically and an empowering way so that everyone benefits there's a win-win-win in every interaction that's what i think what we're all looking
Speaker 2for that's what gets you long term relation profitable relationships people who are who are with you who trust you who recognize that hey you're a straight shooter i can i can work with this person on into the future and do
Speaker 1well yeah i would see my father do this my dad was in the uh insurance business for i don't know 33 years and i would see him always going to the local shop we were in a small town in delaware ohio so it was a very small community and i would always see him you know buying from all the local people and then them buying from him and just like building those relationships he would send them you know gifts this was like snail mail days where he would like write them letters and he would find newspaper clippings about them and write a little thoughtful note and send it to them just kind of constantly in that giving mentality and um i saw it work for him you know for for decades in the insurance business of the kind of the old school pre-internet social media days and uh and you can do it online offline this this this law
Speaker 2this principle works you know i have a colleague she's my uh speakers agent in europe and she has a client very big client but who's a slow pay he doesn't pay for six months all her friends in the business say oh this guy you know his he's a big client we need him but he he he won't pay our invoices and uh she asked me about it i said well what do you know about him she said well he lives in a different city than i do so i don't know a lot i just know that he's a he's a uh uh an art lover i said oh listen go to your local art galleries and museums where they have these little postcards you know that show the pictures of the the the exhibitions that they have on display and their permanent work and so on and put one in the mail with your invoice i love that she said it cut time in half
Speaker 1that's brilliant that's brilliant if you want to get paid you got to do things a little differently you got to stand out i think that's
Speaker 2fascinating put a put a starbucks card in with the invoice something it could be 25 bucks
Speaker 1it doesn't have to
Speaker 2be yeah thank you for your business yeah and now they're ready to say now they're the ones who are saying thank you and they do it by things like that absolutely yeah
Speaker 1i love this um anything else about reciprocation before we've covered our basis i love it i think it's such an important rule and it's uh yeah and it's it's something that if you're not thinking of this if you're not coming in my opinion if you're not coming from a giving heart first and wanting to add value wanting to be of service wanting to give it's just going to be harder to sustain relationships long term with your business your intimate relationships your family relationships if you're always being the or the taker right and so i just come from a place of service first and i think you'll always win out in the win-win-win situation in the long run we are
Speaker 2on the same page there yes you come from a a position of service what can you provide that enhances the other person's outcomes first and then there's a side effect they will want to
Speaker 1enhance yours absolutely the the next principle is commitment and consistency and i get this question so often robert about people asking me about you know how have you built your online business or how have you got your podcast to go so big what's the secret to your success what's the hack what's the trick to help me launch my podcast as fast as you did and i literally tell people commitment and consistency over i'm like i'm going to give you the most boring answer of how i've built you know one of the biggest shows uh podcasts in the world yeah and when you do things consistently with a level of commitment to your vision it starts to pay off so can you explain more about commitment and consistency
Speaker 2i mean that is very that is primal what you just said you have to have within yourself a commitment to your vision and a consistent movement toward it in ways that really do advance the toward your goals uh but we also need to recognize that the people we want to influence also value consistency in themselves right so one thing we can do is to find an existing value or an existing preference of theirs and show how what we offer them is consistent with that value their vision their commitment and then they will want to move in our direction because of a drive to be congruent with their existing preferences and and values and previous choices right can they be consistent with their existing preferences and and their values and previous choices right can there was a study done in um chicago uh restaurant owner not this time a server but a restaurant owner uh who was having a problem with no shows people who weren't being consistent they would call they would make a they would make a a reservation and then they wouldn't appear for it and he went and listened to what his receptionist would say when she took a booking and he said well i'm not going to listen to what his receptionist would say when she took a booking and he said well i'm not going to and she would say thank you for calling and she would say thank you for calling and she would say thank you for calling gordon's restaurant please call if you gordon's restaurant please call if you gordon's restaurant please call if you have to change or cancel your have to change or cancel your have to change or cancel your reservation right he asked her to change reservation right he asked her to change reservation right he asked her to change two words you were saying a minute ago two words you were saying a minute ago two words you were saying a minute ago you know it's remarkable how just changing you know it's remarkable how just changing you know it's remarkable how just changing a word or two you know it makes a big a word or two you know it makes a big a word or two you know it makes a big difference he asked her to change two difference he asked her to change two difference he asked her to change two words instead of saying please call words instead of saying please call words instead of saying please call he asked her to say will you he asked her to say will you he asked her to say will you please call if you have to change or please call if you have to change or please call if you have to change or cancel your reservation cancel your reservation cancel your reservation and then he asked her to pause if i said to you will you please call if i said to you will you please call if i said to you will you please call and i paused what would you fill that and i paused what would you fill that and i paused what would you fill that pause with pause with pause with of course
Speaker 1right yes yeah yeah of course of course right yes yeah yeah of course of course right yes yeah yeah of course so it's reciprocating and saying yes i so it's reciprocating and saying yes i so it's reciprocating and saying yes i will a commitment
Speaker 2will a commitment will a commitment you've made a commitment interesting you've made a commitment interesting you've made a commitment interesting no shows dropped by 67 no shows dropped by 67 no shows dropped by 67 because people were on record as because people were on record as because people were on record as publicly committing themselves publicly committing themselves publicly committing themselves committing to that act because we all committing to that act because we all committing to that act because we all want to be want to be want to be it's a value to to live up to what we it's a value to to live up to what we it's a value to to live up to what we say we prefer our that image of our say we prefer our that image of our say we prefer our that image of our self be our word yeah yes self be our word yeah yes self be our word yeah yes and so you make people and so you make people and so you make people uh it makes that commitment explicit uh it makes that commitment explicit uh it makes that commitment explicit yes i will now you've given them yes i will now you've given them yes i will now you've given them something to be consistent with because
Speaker 1something to be consistent with because something to be consistent with because please call is more of an ask it's not please call is more of an ask it's not please call is more of an ask it's not it's more like a suggestion yeah it's it's more like a suggestion yeah it's it's more like a suggestion yeah it's not a an ask with a commitment right not a an ask with a commitment right
Speaker 2not a an ask with a commitment right attached to it the most brilliant thing attached to it the most brilliant thing attached to it the most brilliant thing about his recommendation was asking her about his recommendation was asking her about his recommendation was asking her to pause so people had to make an active commitment oh man yeah that's here's another one i love this one guy called me a couple years ago he's the boy scout leader and he says to make money for our troop we've arranged with a supermarket that we put uh tables outside the doors and we sell popcorn to people who come out of the supermarket uh to help the boy scouts right and he said our our results are dismal we're getting like 15 percent well i can understand why because first of all people if they wanted popcorn they would have bought it in the in the and they've already expended their budget right and and they're tired and they're okay so i said so what do you say when they come they said would you like to buy something and they said no i don't want to buy something and they said no i don't want to buy some popcorn if you do you could support the boy scouts i said try this say excuse me do you support the boy scouts everybody says yes yes you say no i don't
Speaker 1support the boy scouts yeah you're like a bad person who
Speaker 2doesn't have as a value or the boy scouts right a preference he says well if you if you would if you do would you like to buy some popcorn that will support us now 55 percent bought the oh my goodness from 15 to 55 and here's what he said to me he called me up when he said this is amazing because the people who don't want the popcorn say i don't want your popcorn but i'll give you a donation because i support the boy scouts amazing so they're making they're making a profit without even having to sell the popcorn it's amazing because they get people to first make a commitment where how do you ask the question so people say yes to the direction you would like them to move before you ask them to move in that
Speaker 1direction yeah i'm i'm reminded of i'm having so many flashbacks of early 2010s where i studied your your book uh and i was studying everyone else in kind of uh behavioral psychology and influence and persuasion and marketing and i'm reminded of um oh my gosh is it frank lutz frank luntz lutz lutz yes words that work yeah he had all these examples kind of similar to what you created where it's like if you just change this one word all these other things could happen in your favor and it's so fascinating that you're giving these suggestions and testing these things for the boy scouts and all these people um and it's seeing these increases just with a couple little tweaks and if we learn these things and i know you've got all this stuff in your book as well but if we start to really learn these things it's just the result can be
Speaker 2incredible for a return on in bet on investment that's over the top the the investment is one more breath that's it will you you know the pause yes and a pause it's costless so what i so i don't know how many of uh the people who who listen are managers or have to run teams from time to time where you have a team meeting and everybody has a task to do before the next meeting here's what i say i don't let anybody out of that room until you say will you be able to complete that task by
Speaker 1our next so when so we do our team calls on mondays and if we have kind of each person go around and share like what's the one thing they're going to accomplish this week or the big task of the week how should we phrase that to get their buy-in and their commitment on
Speaker 2that what you say to them is will do you think you will be able to accomplish this or make progress toward it before our next meeting and if they say no i don't you know you can say well what can you get some help with it do you need more resources do you need to put something else to the side you can then work on getting to yes right right but if they do say yes i'm able you have now motivated them to put that higher in the priority list of what they're going to do because they've made a commitment to it and they've made a commitment to it and they've made a public commitment to everybody that they're going to do it and no one
Speaker 1wants to break their commitment no one wants to break their word you do it over and over again you kind of lose confidence in yourself you know your your self-worth goes down your i guess your likability with yourself kind of probably goes down because you're always breaking your commitment to yourself
Speaker 2and you know that's a really good point on a lot of people when we talk about this say oh well your reputation with others will go down if you break it what you've pointed to is something just as powerful you want to live up to your own standards and so you will take steps to make sure you you live up to your commitments
Speaker 1absolutely absolutely so what's one thing if i'm trying to get someone to listen more regularly on the show or watch the youtube channel on a weekly basis what's something i could ask to the listeners or the viewers to get them committed to showing up consistently what would be something you'd suggest or for anyone who has a show that's you know has that they want to get their listeners to be more consistent what would you suggest
Speaker 2i would say i'd i'd begin by asking for something small like could you listen to last week's podcast or any of the following and tell me and then say to yourself was that worth it and would you like to get that kind of benefit regularly i'm going to make a commitment to you if you do you will get that i'm gonna i i select my guests and i do my homework so that there is value for you in each of our programs and if you would be willing to make that commitment to me i have made i'll make this commitment to you will get value i love that okay
Speaker 1awesome anything else around commitment or consistency that we should know about
Speaker 2okay here's another thing where you change one word yes um so again let's say you're a manager and you've got a a goal that your team is making progress toward and and they're advancing and and they're halfway there and what we're always supposed to do is to congratulate them on the the movement that they've made and on their progress that's a mistake to use the word progress to congratulate people on their progress because what you've asked them to do is look behind them at where they have been and what what's happened so far and their their movement and a lot of times people say oh okay they're satisfied i'm satisfied now i can coast a little bit here right if instead you don't say congratulations on your progress that you've made toward the goal it's congratulations on your commitment to this goal to finishing this now they're looking forward wow and the research shows they're significantly more likely to reach that goal on time if you use the word commitment to it then progress
Speaker 1toward it congratulations on your commitment to this goal so not even don't even add congratulations on the progress of your commitment to this goal just say congratulations on the commitment to your goal we're doing great things and we're we're we're almost there let's finish it off right okay congratulations on the commitment i'm writing this down i like that a
Speaker 2lot um your commitment make sure it's their commitment your commitment to this goal okay
Speaker 1yeah i hope everyone's taking notes as well like me um i love this this is me too i love this commitment and consistency
Speaker 2you know this i was always a curious uh teenager and young man about how did this work like that how did people get me to say yes to things i wasn't really interested in you know i didn't it must be the way they presented it the psychology of
Speaker 1it yes yes the next principle is social proof and i've always been fascinated by this i think there's there's stories in the book that that go into some of these examples but i'm always fascinated by the one of just like okay there's two coffee shops or two donut shops or whatever there's the same type of store one's got a long line and the other has no line and then the other has no line and then the other has no line and then most people go into the one with the long line because it just shows a social proof case study of people want this thing then it must be good can you explain more of this concept of social
Speaker 2proof well yes and i want to compliment you on that particular example because not only does it show the principle of social proof that says when i'm uncertain about what to do i use the responses of other people the choices of other people to steer me in that direction it reduces my uncertainty we're so persuaded
Speaker 1but to want to wait in line just because everyone else wants the thing it's like the nightclub where it's like they make you wait outside at line yeah you want to go in there
Speaker 2you know exactly so that's the that's the extra point that i think you raise with that example you're willing to go and wait in line and incur all the inconvenience because this rule is so powerful crazy you'll wait
Speaker 130 minutes for the same cup of coffee right you know or whatever it is you know it's like a lot of times i mean i haven't been in a nightclub in i don't know 10 years or something but a lot of times you would go into the nightclub and you're like this is not that good let me get out of here you just waited an hour to go something you didn't really like um one here's a story that for me that this worked incredibly well when i learned this principle at 2009 i learned this from you and it worked i was like this is fascinating i remember getting a big press opportunity i was in a big i don't know five page spread of details magazine the magazine is no longer around i don't think but details magazine i remember it was a big magazine back in the day it's kind of like a gq type of thing and i got an email from one of the main writers there say i'm doing a story about um online marketers who can help you earn more money and i've got tim ferris that i'm featuring gary vaynerchuk seth godin and i want to include you and it was maybe one or two other people and he was like we're going to fly you out to new york city we're going to do a big photo shoot the whole thing i was a nobody robert i was a nobody no one even knew who i was i had a very small following when i was teaching linkedin strategies back in 2008 so i had a small micro community and but i was nobody compared to tim ferris and gary vaynerchuk and all these other people and i said yes right away and i i went there and did this shoot and it was like this big spread of details magazine and it was like a massive opportunity for me and i remember after it was published i asked the writer i didn't want to ask him beforehand but i asked the writer hey why did you choose me why did you want to have me in this this featured magazine and he said i saw someone retweet one of your tweets and i went to who was influential to me i saw them retweeted then i went to your link in your bio and i saw your website and on the website at the very top i saw that you were featured in time magazine and fast company and a few other places and he said right away i saw that you were featuring these other places and i thought if you were good enough for them you were good enough for details magazine and that was pretty much all the search he did before reaching out to me and there was two levels of social proof one someone sharing uh a message that i put out there on twitter that he saw so someone else was talking about it and then seeing the the logos of the other press that i had gotten which was very small you know mentions it wasn't like these featured articles but it was showing where i'd been featured and he said because other people desired you and wanted to talk about you right i figured you were good enough for us yep and that that small change that i learned from you helped just unlock so much more and i think if people just understood the subtleties of just showcase where you've been featured just make sure you're showing these things so people are aware it'll bring new
Speaker 2opportunities right and i mean that's um that's the the essence of social proof yes what are people around me like me doing or what have they been doing that reduces my uncertainty about what i should do in that situation um and it works in all kinds there is this uh lovely little study in a a pub in uh in uk in london where one day the proprietor put up a sign on the bar that said this week our most popular beer is our porter right porter sales doubled
Speaker 1just by saying this week our most popular is wow we all have our
Speaker 2most popular item yes product feature payment plan all we have to do is point to to the one that is and people say oh i can stop asking about where i should go or what i should know here's a reason for me to stop searching and choose right now well
Speaker 1i feel like we're all suckers for this i mean not in a bad way but when i go to a restaurant that i've never been to i just ask the waiter i don't even look at the menu i just say what are the three most popular items or what are the three things you like the most on the menu and they'll say well this one's great i love this one the most and this is the most popular one and then i make a decision based on that typically because i don't want to look at everything and try to find something i just want to know what do other people like what do you like and what's the recommendation right and you know i'm sure on amazon i'm they're probably the masters at all this but um they're showing amazon's recommended choice all the time when you search into something i buy i buy that recommended choice pretty much every time it's got the most reviews it's got the credibility it's got
Speaker 2all these things you know um i do the same thing when i go to a restaurant where i am not familiar with the menu i just add one other thing that uh i when i say so tell me what are your most popular items in the appetizer category how about the mains how about the desserts and so whatever i'm interested soup whatever and i say of your regulars tell me the people who are your regulars what's the most popular of theirs they're essentially the verified buyers right on amazon yes yeah that we all listen to the most right your regulars they've already done the beta testing for me i don't have to go over the menu and test so what's so that's that idea i mean i
Speaker 1wonder if i've never seen a menu do that in each category i've seen sometimes like one item that says like our most popular item but i wonder if they did it in a different way i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't in appetizers salads soups you know entrees desserts they put the top like the star most popular item here in each category i bet those things would get so much more
Speaker 2sales lewis i can give you confirmation that you're right there was a study done in beijing shows you how cross-culturally extended this principle is restaurant managers put a little asterisk next to certain items in each of the categories and each one became 13 to 20 percent more purchased and what did the asterisk stand for this is one of our most popular items i
Speaker 1bet you could start to predict as a business owner a restauranteur what ingredients you need more of based on the consistency of just that one difference of putting an asterisk or most popular whatever you want to do it you can start to predict the sales every week of okay i'm not going to buy an asterisk next to certain items in each of these other ingredients because we know that only 20 percent of people are going to buy these other lower choices you can start to increase the profit margin you can start to predict things better uh there's so many things that would happen in your benefit
Speaker 2well here's the best part of it
Speaker 1i bet people are happier because they're making a choice they think is the best choice right and they enjoy it more psychologically they're like oh i'm doing what everyone else loves
Speaker 2that's the best part because not only are you reducing their uncertainty if you've truly treated to the genuinely most popular you're giving them a better experience and they're
Speaker 1going to come back you're going to come back and also you're going to become better at making that thing better because you're working on that thing more you're going to make sure it's great every time like just it's just all these things are going to level you up the entire experience i love this and it doesn't have
Speaker 2to be any one thing it can be a couple of things within the advertise uh the appetizer category and so on yeah top
Speaker 1two most popular choices yes anything else around social proof that we should be aware of
Speaker 2no i think this is well the biggest is it shouldn't just be many others it should be comparable others we most reduce our uncertainty of what to do in a situation by looking at what those like us have done there interesting so one thing we can do is let people know that you know like on the the uh hotel sites what they will do is segment their marketing say the best hotels as rated by uh business people the best for leisure travelers the best for romantic couples the best for people with families and so now you dive right in there and you say that's that's where i'm gonna go to
Speaker 1get my information that's smart yeah specializing it to people that are like you or doing something like you i love that and uh speaking of liking someone uh the next principle is is liking and what is the difference between liking
Speaker 2and likability well you can become you you get liking by being likable okay but nobody will be surprised to hear that here's what's worth knowing from the research and that is there are two very small things we can do that cause people to like us more right one is to point to similarities between the two of us right the comparabilities uh and uh because people like those who are like them yes right there was a study of negotiators who were doing bargaining over email and if before they began to to bargain they traded information about one another right so they could personalize the other person you know they found that stymied negotiations went from 30 percent to six percent wow just by sending now here's the key when the researchers looked at the data they found that it wasn't those who sent the most information back and forth about themselves and you know kind of made themselves human it was in the information there were parallels similarities you're a runner i'm a runner yes you're an only child i'm an only child those were the things that created the willingness to give the other person grace in a negotiation so you don't walk away with a stymied deadlocked nothing burger where nobody wins right right
Speaker 1my friend i hope you're enjoying this episode and the school of greatness drops new conversations every monday wednesday and friday around money mindset healing manifestation and relationships and if you're not yet following the show then you're missing all of them please tap the follow button right now and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops because the next one might be exactly what you need now let's get back to the show to the conversation so that's the first thing having shared similarities right within each other what's the second thing praise
Speaker 2compliments wow i'm going to admit to something here this is my biggest fallback this is this is my biggest mistake i have a very difficult time giving a warranted praise really to people why is that it was the way i grew up oh my parents didn't do it they were always they didn't say i loved you well they would say that but they wouldn't say oh great job on that in that game or you'd really you know did terrific because they didn't want me to take it easy they always wanted me to push a little
Speaker 1harder push a
Speaker 2little harder so i can't tell you how many times you know i was a before i retired a research psychologist and how many times in meetings research meetings with my graduate students i would hear myself say oh that's a brilliant thing that lewis just said or oh what's there how's there just freeze that is exactly what we should say in our study what you want to say and i say it to myself and i didn't and i missed all the goodwill that would come from just translating it from my mind to my tongue and now i i don't do that anymore i make sure that anytime i hear myself praise somebody in my head i hear myself say it in my ears because i say it out loud that's good yeah i can't tell you the effect it's had on uh on the social interaction and goodwill in those sessions and with my students you know it's
Speaker 1fascinating again i have applied so many of these principles throughout my the last 10 12 years i guess when i was a student i was a student i was getting started a lot of people were listening they've fallen for a while they know my story i got started using linkedin to kind of build relationships and connections and then from there started helping people how to use linkedin to get opportunities and jobs and you know investors and all these different things and the first few months of using linkedin back in 2007 2000 yeah late 2007 i would email people and message people and and very few would reply to me and i was reaching out to kind of influential ceos and business leaders because i was trying to build relationships i was trying to interview them early on to ask them questions and just learn from them and very few would give me the time of day and then i started to implement this strategy from your book of of liking right and and also kind of social proof in there as well and i started emailing and i said to myself in the first sentence i've got to incorporate this so i would look and do research on their profile and i'd see what are the similarities how do we know how do we know each other how do we know friends of friends that's why i think social networking is a great tool to use because you can usually see if you have common friends and i would i would always talk about like oh i see that we have bob and sarah and tom as mutual friends there's a there's a similarity i would see where did they go to school where are they from did they play sports because it tells you their hobbies their interests and their careers their associations you know i see that you're a public speaker i'm in toastmasters right now i see that you played football i just finished playing arena football whatever it is i would try to add three levels of similarities within the first sentence and by doing that i believe i think i got like eight or nine out of ten replies every time whereas maybe i was only getting one or two out of ten replies before that just by adding that and also by acknowledging something in their career they did that i felt inspired by so i would add the similarities and then i would also try to find out praise what do they do in their career i would research them a lot and say i really like when you put this out i really like how you did this thing and i acknowledge them for that and then i would say i would love to learn more about how you did this before i would say can you give me advice can i take 10 minutes of your time yeah where you teach me these things yeah then i said no one wants to give advice and give up when they're busy and give them their time yeah but people love to tell the story of their success and how they overcame the challenge so i rephrased it and i would get so many different connections from that because i didn't ask for advice i just was inspired by their story wanted them to share and by listening they gave me all the advice in the
Speaker 2world you know it seems to me you've hit the two principal pillars of liking then you similarity and praise uh and and uh yeah so not only do we like the people who are like us we like the people who do like us and say so praise compliments we like the people who give us compliments and as a result we want to do business with them we want to interact with them we want to say yes to them yeah praise it's such a simple thing and it's and it's again it's costless yes i mean but what you did is the right thing is if you give a phony compliment you know it's just gonna ring it's not gonna ring true yeah but if you really research they really think about who they are understand what their challenges are who where they came from what challenges they've overcome and you praise that it's genuine it rings true absolutely
Speaker 1absolutely i love this liking is huge again two things that we can do to get more people to like us is finding commonalities and similarities and praise acknowledgement compliments they're they're free it just takes a little bit of research a little bit of thoughtfulness and the benefits are abundant and it doesn't take a lot of research because
Speaker 2they tell us about themselves on linkedin exactly they tell us about themselves on facebook it's not proprietary information you can go
Speaker 1to someone's instagram and a few photos you can see if they have kids you can see what they're up to where they live and
Speaker 2they want us to know that about and it's interesting
Speaker 1when i'm sure bob when you get emailed um and someone does the research and someone shares common similarities and they acknowledge you for the incredible work you've done in the world and how your book has impacted them or the videos they've seen you're more likely to reply maybe won't spend your time on the phone with them but you're more likely to say i like this person let me at least say thank you and i appreciate it and let's you know maybe in the future we'll get together i feel obligated to want to reply to those nice compliments and oh we know these people in common okay if i don't reply to this person and he has a common friend am i going to be the jerk that blows you know is it going to come back to me from my friend that i was a jerk you know it's like we feel obligated
Speaker 2i i am exactly the same somebody compliments me it's very difficult to just dismiss them and not you have to do something in return say thank you it's reciprocity you have to do something in return
Speaker 1that's crazy i love it um okay the next principle is authority and i think um with all the people that are maybe getting started in their career or their business or they're launching an idea and they feel like they have no authority, why do they need to create authority in order to be more successful? How do they gain authority in an authentic way? And what happens if we don't have authority?
Speaker 2Yeah. So I'm going to differentiate between two kinds of authority, both of which make a difference and cause people to say yes to us. But the person you described doesn't have the first type, which is to be in a position of authority. That is to have standing or stature in a hierarchy or something. Yeah. So there are people who are in authority. That's not who we're talking about in influence. That's power. That's about power. There are people, there's somebody who is an authority, that's the person I'm talking about. Somebody who's knowledgeable, somebody who has experience, somebody who can point to some credentials they have. And very often, you know, that can be somebody who's just come out of a training program or a university with a major in a particular area where they specialize and they can say, I know about the latest research, on this, you know, or somebody who's been around for a while can say, I've been in this area for a while and I have a lot of experience. You can point to those things that are genuine credentials that you have. And so, for example, I did some work with a hospital in the, I live in the Phoenix area. It's a hospital where they asked me to help them with stroke patients. Who weren't doing their home exercises that the physical therapist gave them to do when they left the hospital. And so they weren't getting better. So I said, well, can you show me what you do? And they said, well, here's the, the, the regimen we give them to do it. And we take them into this, this little room and we make sure they understand everything. And I looked at the room, and I said, well, there were pictures. On the walls that replace those pictures with your credentials, put your diplomas, put your awards, put your certifications on the wall and exercise compliance as measured by flexibility, strength, range of motion increased by 31% because in the room where they were giving them, the information, they had all this in all this evidence credibility. They were an authority.
Speaker 1So people took them more seriously. Yes. Yeah. So showcase showcasing your showcase your
Speaker 2credentials. You can't do it face to face though. You can't sit down from somebody and say, Lewis, let me just tell you how great I really am. No, you do it by sending them, your resume as an attachment ahead of your first meeting. I'm looking forward to our meeting on Thursday on the topic of X. Here are my background and credentials on X. Right. Or you say, here's my LinkedIn profile.
Speaker 1Absolutely. Go there. Or at the bottom of your email signature, you could have like the letters or the initials.
Speaker 2The initials, yes.
Speaker 1I'm sure that if I'm looking at your book here and it just said Robert Cialdini with no PhD after it versus having the PhD, I'm sure that adds just a subtle level of credibility with this right here. It does. For people. And the authority.
Speaker 2Now, if you hold that up again and you look at the top of it, over 5 million copies sold, that's social proof. Huge social proof. But in both cases, I'm pointing to something that's genuine. Right. I don't have to fabricate it. I don't have to. Really, you don't have to do that.
Speaker 1Yeah. You have the social proof. With how many, this is how many people have bought it. Then you have the more social proof from a credible source giving a recommendation. Then you have this down here, which is the authority. It's all on the front of the book. New and expanded, you know, additional content, all this stuff. It's all on the front page, which helps you make a decision.
Speaker 2And you know, Lewis, I have in the past, not this particular edition, but in previous editions, I've had to fight. my publisher to get that stuff on there. Really? Because they said, you know, we want more white space. What? You want white? I'm talking about authority. You're talking about white space?
Speaker 1Yeah. And you have, again, praise on the back. It's like when someone's praising you, it's more social proof. And it's funny because there's so many authors who have implemented these strategies over the last 10 years since you've been putting this work out there. And you see it everywhere now. You see everyone following a similar format if they're researched and studied well with these principles. And they work. They do it because it works.
Speaker 2So authority. Yeah. And oh, there's one more feature of authority that the newest research suggests. And that is people say, how do I, how can I multiply? Well, get legitimate experts, quotes or testimonials. It doesn't have to be necessarily to you or your product, but to your idea. Yes. To you as a person. To you as, yes. And all right. You put that there in any message that you send at the top. Not at the, don't borrow. You want that authority aura. You want that authority aura to suffuse everything that goes next. Every claim that you make. Really? You want to be supported by the fact that an authority agrees with you and your vision.
Speaker 1So what would this be? Would this be for like a book proposal to have those at the top? Would it be for, what other types of examples would that be for to put the quotes at the top of your website at the top?
Speaker 2At the website, the website is the key. Right. What's the first thing you should see on somebody's website? You should see testimonials
Speaker 1from credible people, credible people.
Speaker 2Most of the websites have them buried somewhere or in a separate category over there. Praise for such a, it, there should be testimonials at the outset so that that authority, um, influence, applies to everything you've yet to read in it. Yes. It sets the,
Speaker 1it sets the tone, right? As opposed to them guessing and wondering and have to look, it sets the stages. This is the authority. This is a credible person. Let me learn more. Not right. Let me find out if they're credible with their bio and this and this or whatever, like scrolling, like start with credibility and authority. That's why when I use the strategy of like, here are the other places I've featured here, the logos of the presses that I've been featured on. It was instant authority. Just when a second you see it, you feel authority in your body. You're just like, okay, as opposed to not showing it at the top, people have to go down and look for it. I feel like you're missing the mark.
Speaker 2I once did some, uh, work with Bose acoustics corporation. They had a new product, the Bose wave music system at the time. And, uh, after we, um, got some increased, uh, sales to a particular ad, uh, the, the product had been out there long enough that they had authorities, uh, testifying. And so they made up a new generation of the ad with the authorities in there, right? Except they were at the bottom of the ad. The authority. And we just had them move them to the top. And got a 15% increase in sales.
Speaker 1Crazy. You see the, I think the movie industry does as well, where they are constantly saying the movie of the year by entertainment magazine or this, you know, it's like astonishing, you know, whatever it may be. Uh, you see that always flashing up in the trailers, of the movies and you just like, okay, if everyone else loves this and they're calling them the authority or this is the authoritative movie of the year, I got to go watch it. You know, right, right, right. 20 Emmy nominations. It's like, okay, I have to go watch this. Yeah. You know, it's the authority in that space as well.
Speaker 2So remember I said that social proof reduces your uncertainty about what you should do. The same thing applies to authority. If the experts are recommending something, it reduces your uncertainty. You don't have to sit on the fence anymore. You don't have to ditter around and think about this or that.
Speaker 1Boom. You can go right in. I love it. I love that. We've got the final principle of the previous version until you've discovered the new principle, which I want to get to, but the original final principle is scarcity. And can you explain? The principle of scarcity, why we find things that are rare and scarce or limited, something that we desire, that we want on human psychology standpoint, and then also in a digital world for people that have an unlimited of digital goods, essentially, that's not a physical good and they have digital, how do they position in a way that is ethical scarcity?
Speaker 2Okay. I want to. Take those in order because that's the right sequence of this. First of all, the reason we want things that are rare or scarce or dwindling in availability is that otherwise we lose them and loss is a more powerful motivator in human psychology than gaining the same thing. Really? There's a man. A man who won the Nobel Prize in economics a few years ago, Daniel Kahneman, for something he called prospect theory, where he showed that the prospects of gaining a particular amount of a resource, all right, let's say a dollar, right, compared to the prospects of losing that dollar. People were twice as likely to want to avoid losing the dollar than gaining the extra one, right?
Speaker 1Wow. So if we have the ability to gain a million dollars or lose a million dollars, we'd rather hold on to the losing of the million dollars than the possibility of gaining. Is that kind of the same cut?
Speaker 2I once gave a lecture to a financial services firm. And afterwards, the boss came up to me and said, you just said something with that loss aversion, the idea of people are averse to loss more than they want to gain things. You just said something that finally allows me to understand what my mentor told me. He said, if you have a high value client, right, way up there. You don't want to lose them. Right. Yeah. But they're millions of dollars, right? Yes. And you call them at five in the morning and say, if you act now, you'll be able to gain $25,000 on this stock. They're going to scream at you and hang up the phone. But if you call them and say, if you act now, you'll avoid losing $25,000 on our position, they'll thank you.
Speaker 1Wow. People don't want to lose. They don't want to lose what they have.
Speaker 2They don't want to lose. So that's why scarcity is so valuable because scarcity, loss is the ultimate form of scarcity. It means you can't have it anymore. That's why people are so adamant about grabbing onto scarce or dwindling resources. They don't want to lose them. Okay. Now, how does that apply? How do you do that when you've got a lot of various, a lot of opportunities? Okay. I'm going to say two things. One is you do have something that's scarce, which is what differentiates you from your rivals? What is the single thing that people can't get? They will lose if they don't move in your direction, right? Now, it might not be one thing, but it might be. It might be a suite of things, a combination of items that only you provide, right? And then you simply say, you don't just say, and if you will go with us, you will gain these. You have to be able to say you don't want to lose these benefits that only we can offer. You don't want to miss that, right? Okay. Now, remember I told you about the Bose ad that we did, where if you added testimonials at the top, you increased sales by 15%. And I said, but first of all, we had done something that increased their sales in a different way. Well, here's what we did. At the top of their initial ad for the Bose Wave music system, they had new features, new convenience, new simplicity. New elegance, right? And at the top was the word new. This was their ad. We changed it to, hear what you've been missing. And we got a 45% increase in sales.
Speaker 1So something people have lost, missing, you haven't heard it yet.
Speaker 2Yes, before all those new features, those were things to be gained. Now, we say, you don't want to miss these.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2That's interesting. Man, human psychology. That's why it's curious. Okay, so that's one thing. Yeah. Now, here's the other. And I think your online people will be interested in it. There was a study of 6,700 online commercial sites, right? And they looked at A-B tests within each one for various kinds of features of the site that would lead to conversions, right? Okay. Some of them were economic. Like, do we offer free delivery, right? Some were technological. Is there a search function in the site for where you can go? Some were psychological. Like, is there a call to action after each appeal, in each appeal? The top six were the six principles. It wasn't any of that. It was the six principles. Okay. And you know what was at the top? Scarcity. Really? If you could legitimately say, we only have X number of these items at this price, or with this feature, or with this bonus, you got the most conversions of all. Wow. Even more than saying, we only have a limited time for buying this at this price.
Speaker 1So, limited time is valuable, but limited quantity or package of certain things is more powerful.
Speaker 2And here's why. Because with a limited number, you're in competition.
Speaker 1All right. Limited time, you can still wait until the last minute.
Speaker 2Yeah. You're not in competition with anybody for it. You can do it any time. If it's a limited number, you better move or it'll be gone. It's lost. Yes. Now, if you've got a lot of these, you can say, this special is only good for X number of items, or we've only got so many of these with this extra feature, or that we will provide this additional. So, you can say, this is a limited number. now let me say that was number one number two was social proof telling people what a lot of others like them had been doing with this right number three was limited time and here's one i rarely see in online um sites it was the liking principle really here's what they did they began with a welcoming letter it's what you do like when somebody comes to your door you welcome them in yes you say hello glad that you're here yep come on in it was a welcoming letter hmm liking first
Speaker 1scarcity social proof limited time liking with a welcome letter this was the this the in order the influence
Speaker 2well actually authority was authority was before liking got it okay authority i love this
Speaker 1stuff i love learning about this yeah i don't know if people hopefully people are jotting down as many notes as me this is powerful the scarcity thing has been a big factor that i've seen more and more in the last couple of years uh with i don't know if you've been aware of this whole nft movement these nfts online which are essentially digital representations of artwork oh yes i am that that are selling out in seconds you know when they have a thousand or five hundred they're limited they're selling on seconds i live here in los angeles and sometimes i'll drive down uh fairfax or melrose avenue and you'll see people in hundreds of people in line outside of a store the shoe stores kind of the sneakerhead stores where they have like this limited run and people will wait for hours i think it's you know i think apple does this well where it's like we've only got a limited amount the first week you know stand in line for three days in a tent so you can get the iphone when it comes out right the first yeah uh you know baseball and basketball and trading cards have have become a booming in the last couple years i even got involved in this and i was like i can't believe uh you know i've been in this for a long time i've been in this for a long time you know what now it's so much limited quality uh a quantity of older cards or rare cards here's
Speaker 2the best example i ever saw it has to do with apple and how apple uses this right so uh it was the release of the iphone 5 in phoenix uh the local tv station that i listened to i watch uh they sent a reporter to interview the people who had been around the corner and sleeping bags right waiting for this and and they went up the the reporter went up to the person who was number 23 in line so interviewing so do you talk to the other people in line did you get to know them she said yeah actually she said i was originally number 25 in line but i struck up a conversation with the woman who was number 23 who admired my shoulder bag it's a two thousand eight hundred dollar louis vuitton bag and she's that's exactly oh my goodness she said i i broke her to deal with her your spot in line for my louis vuitton bag that's craziness to go from 25 to 23 and and to her credit the the reporter after stammering what she said why did you do that and she said i heard this shop i didn't have a lot and i didn't want to lose the chance to get one wow it's all about loss scarcity is about loss and you'll give up a two thousand eight hundred dollar shoulder bag to go from 25 to 23 yeah maybe that's how
Speaker 1powerful this is that's and crazy but the human psychology is fascinating and it's a little bit more complicated than what we're going to talk about in a minute but i think it's really fascinating and i think it's really fascinating the way our brain thinks the way we work is fascinating so scarcity is all about loss and showcasing that there's a limited quality you don't want to lose out you don't want to miss out on this limited quantity or packaging exclusive packaging of the thing right anything else on scarcity before we get no
Speaker 2that's that's a good this is great
Speaker 1run through so for how long is this the first book has been around for what over over a decade right before the new before version came out 12 years 12 years and these six principles have been the leading force in massive companies for entrepreneurs for lifestyle entrepreneurs for online websites for for the last 12 years but now with this new and expanded version you've got a lot of new research and you've added an additional principle which is unity can you explain what unity is and how you decided to add an additional principle to influence because i started to see evidence
Speaker 2that i was mistaken in thinking that unity was just an extension of similarity what unity is if if as a communicator i can convince somebody that i share membership in a we group a group that this person uses the term we to to characterize right everything becomes easier inside the boundaries of the we
Speaker 1group so for example like we are part of uh you know the same college alumni association precisely
Speaker 2some category that defines our identity right and um so i even yeah so region is one thing so for example people who belong to the same city or
Speaker 1same state state country it's like finding something where we're apart we belong we belong
Speaker 2where we grew right but it when when we were first talking before we went on the air you were saying some of your followers just want to know about how things can be done um in their personal life to increase their their outcomes and there's a great example of how the uh unity principle works in relationships romantic relationships you know in all romantic relationships there are some things that are going really well and there are some things that there are just a disagreement you you're not you you can't get resolution on a particular problem or difficulty and so these researchers in texas brought uh couples into a a situation a research situation and they said what we'd like you to do is is um think about a an issue that you haven't been able to get uh agreement on you just all the time that you've been together you just haven't been able to do it and we would like for one of you and flip the coin uh to be the persuader to try to persuade your partner to come into line with your position on this issue right and then they took a step back left the room but they had tv cameras and tape recorders going so they knew what happened and they found three kinds of persuaders one was what they called the uh coercive persuader who said you know you're not going to get the same result you're not going to get the same result i need you to do this for me otherwise you'll be sorry i'll have to do some things that you're not happy about right not only did that fail to work it produced polarization you that you got the opposite result now the recipient of that message was further away from the persuaders position so that was terrible there was another approach that the researchers called the rational logical approach where the persuader said look if you'll just if you'll just examine the situation more closely you'll see that my position is the more rational one it's the more reasonable one now that didn't get polarization that got laughter yes right right how you think so they they got no movement at all from that one there was only one strategy that worked what was that by a very small percentage of people okay who said you know we've been together now for two and a half years i'd really appreciate it if you'd do this for me they just brought to the surface that they were a unit wow they shared an identity that's all that was it no new information no greater logic no no no just bring to consciousness that we are a we group and inside we groups people support and compromise it's what we do inside we groups right now there was another version of that that was even simpler to implement it was simply to use the pronouns we our and us in making the request so change wow for change gotcha we our work and us and us okay again bringing to consciousness the idea of oh we're members of this shared identity it can be anything
Speaker 1really and it can be we go to the same gym we like the same workouts we like the same whatever food we like the same restaurants you're saying any type of we community yes
Speaker 2So I grew up in Wisconsin, and so my NFL football team is the Green Bay Packers. All my life, I've been a Packers fan, right? A little while ago, I read a newspaper article where they looked at the favorite NFL teams of various celebrities. And I found out that Justin Timberlake and Lil Wayne are both avid Green Bay Packer fans. Lewis, I immediately thought better of their music. Oh, wow. That's crazy. And I wanted them to succeed to a greater. They were of me. They weren't just like me. They were one of us. They were one of us. It made all. Yeah. That's crazy.
Speaker 1And I'm assuming the more emotionally connected to an identity group you are, the more. The more likely you're one to support or be in partnership with or like someone who is a part of that deeper emotional group for you. If you're like the Green Bay Packers super fan, if you find one person likes them, you're like, okay, I look at them completely differently now. Completely differently. That's amazing. So how can we incorporate this in a business negotiation, let's say?
Speaker 2All right. I'm going to recommend. First of all, just like you look for just similarities of preferences and styles and tastes, you can also look for similarities of categories by doing that search, that initial search and bring it up. You're a boater. I'm a boater. Right. That's it. Whatever it could be. But there's another way that has been. Wildly successful in the marketing community. Maybe the most successful strategy for creating loyalty and satisfaction with your product in the last decade. Co-creation. Where we ask people who have been. Who are our customers or even our prospects. Prospective customers. We want to create the next level of our product or service. Can you give us some input? And we ask for their responses on what can we do to make this better? What can we do to. What should we drop away? What do we need to improve? Co-create the next level of our products or services. That creates unity. You are co-creating this thing.
Speaker 1It's probably why crowdfunding and Kickstarter and all these sites have done so well because someone puts out an idea and then says, but also give us feedback so that when we ship it, we've incorporated those ideas into making this product to your liking. And people get behind it. They buy something they can't even get for a year. They invest in something to be a part of it. They're part of the co-creation of someone launching it. They'll give feedback. They'll be excited about it. They'll spend so much time and energy on one potential product that maybe they get 6 to 12 months later. Right. Because they're a part of the co-creation.
Speaker 2And here's where we come to another one of those single word changes. If you ask for feedback, if you ask for an opinion, you can get this effect. But there's one word you can use. There's one word you can use that enhances the effect significantly. Instead of asking for their opinion or their feedback, you ask for their advice and you get a partner. So don't ask for feedback. Ask for advice. Ask for advice. When you ask for feedback, people take a half step away from you and they go inside themselves. Right. And they consider what their reactions are. Inside. If you ask for advice, they come and stand next to you psychologically.
Speaker 1Right. That's interesting.
Speaker 2And now here's what the research shows. If you ask for advice, people like your idea better than if you ask for feedback or opinion about it.
Speaker 1This stuff is fascinating to me. One word. Yes. Is there anything else about unity that you would add to?
Speaker 2I would say that we don't want to let this go where it exists already. I'll give you an example of how it worked for me. A while ago, I had to complete a report, and it was due the next day. And as I was reading over it, I saw there was one section that it was not really convincing. I really didn't make my case, because I didn't have the research to support it. But I knew I had a colleague who had done a study the year before, and had collected data relevant to this point. If I put that in, it would close the envelope. It would be a sure thing. Well, this guy, let's call him Tim, that's not his real name, was known to be sour and irascible. And an unpleasant guy. So I sent him an email, I said, Tim, I explained my situation, I have this due the next day, you have the date. I'm going to call you and see how we can get this to me today, so I can put it into my report. And I called him, he said, I know why you're calling, Bob. And the answer is no. He said, look, man, I can't be responsible for your poor time management. Skills, that it's due the next day, and you don't have the data. He said, no. And before I read all the research on unity, I would have said, come on, Tim. It's due the next, I'm really in a bind here, it's due tomorrow. He had already said no to that, right? This is what I said. Honestly, you know, Tim, we've been in the same psychology department. Now for 12 years. I really appreciate if you do this for me. Wow. And I had the data that afternoon.
Speaker 1Wow, there you go. So he said no, and then you.
Speaker 2Because I didn't raise to, just like those researchers in Texas, the group that said, we're in a couple, we've been together for. I said, we've been together for 12 years in the same unit.
Speaker 1And now, no one went to yes. People feel more obligated or persuaded to take the action. I think obligated.
Speaker 2They feel out of loyalty to the group.
Speaker 1You have to do this. That's crazy. Otherwise, you're like a bad member of the group or something. Right. Oh, man. This is, why is human psychology so fascinating and powerful?
Speaker 2It's always been fascinating to me.
Speaker 1Isn't it crazy? That you could have everyone, everything you want in your life, you could accomplish your goals, your dreams, you could have great partnerships, great friendships, great business opportunities, if you learn to understand people and you learn to speak the language of people, it's fascinating. And I want more people to learn about these things. I want more people to study it because when you can study it and then integrate it into your daily life and just make it a part of who you are. It's going to feel like everything flows to you. It's going to feel like synchronicities are around you constantly. It's going to feel like life is abundant and you are a magnet for what you want. And I think, yeah, it's just so powerful.
Speaker 2And the best thing about it is that you get to be ethical in the process by simply pointing to the things that truly exist. We've been together for 12 years. That's right. In the same unit. Or, you know. You know, we both like, we're both runners or any of these things we've talked about, right?
Speaker 1You know, you just. It's not about manipulation. It's about, yeah, just reaffirming, connecting. Pointing to something. Yeah, pointing to something.
Speaker 2The true social proof, true authority, true scarcity.
Speaker 1That's all. This is fascinating. I've got a few more questions. I've got a few more questions for you. I feel like we've only been talking for 20 minutes, but it's been about almost an hour and 50 minutes now. And I've got a few more for you. I could talk about this stuff all day long. I'm curious about how to use some of this information to get the truth out of someone. Is there any research that you've done or practices that you've implemented where you can use some of these seven principles to see whether or not someone is true? Telling the truth or to get them to be more honest about something, whether it's in business or just.
Speaker 2in life there is um you know when we talk about reciprocation the first thing we talked about it turns out that self-disclosure is reciprocal if you begin by saying you know i'm going to be honest with you about this uh this this this and that people give you back they disclose something about themselves that's honest right so
Speaker 1it's again you have to be first right just like giving a gift first and someone wants to give it in return yeah i i use i i apply that on my show where if i want someone to be vulnerable and open up about something i always lead with vulnerability yeah yeah and i always lead with like something that may be hard to say in in front of a stranger like something i've been through or something i'm not proud of or a challenge i went through and how it made me feel i try to open up about that so that others are willing to open up and
Speaker 2be vulnerable right right i think that's you know so these are the things we've we've talked about you were saying well how do we really use these principles well one is you have to know them you have you have to know what they are but then it becomes if you start out with the with with the things that you described at the beginning which is you'd be a cert you'd be of service you use them to steer people correctly you know to things that they don't want to miss to things that do have authorities who is deported to social proof that shows the popularity of what it is though then everybody's winning absolutely
Speaker 1everyone's winning where in your life are you still struggling to implement some of this you know um besides the prayer you know i'm not sure i'm not sure i'm not the praise the praise still a challenge or is that yeah
Speaker 2it's still something i have to fight with i have to remember to do it every time in order to get that to to um be sure that people are properly acknowledged for their contributions their their thinking what they have brought to the table it's so easy to just go on uh and and take that without without appreciating it publicly uh so that's what i i have to fight to be sure that i don't do that anymore
Speaker 1and if someone listening or watching could only implement one of these principles on a daily basis and the uc would help them and get incredible benefits if they could only do one thing what would that one be that you suggest that people get started with hopefully they can incorporate all seven but if it was just
Speaker 2one so i would ask them to look to the one that's already there in the situation is there real scarcity that you can use is there real authority already you've got all these testimonials you've got all those credentials is there real social proof whatever it is that's where you go you go to the one that's its engine is running it's right there in the situation just waiting for you to harness it but there's one thing i would recommend as a general strategy is to look to the one that's already there in the situation is there real scarcity that you can use is there real authority already you've got all these testimonials you've got one that's already there in the situation is there real strategy as i have a colleague who has a teenage son and he said i wanted to give him some advice about going forward now that he's becoming an adult and i'm asking all of my friends for a piece of advice for him what would yours be bob right so um here's what it would be when you go into a situation where you don't know people it's a new situation unfamiliar think the best of those people think the best and that that they will they want to provide the best to you if you think that it allows you to be generous with them and as soon as you are generous with them there are two really important maybe three important uh downstream consequences first of all by the principle of reciprocity they will want to be generous with you secondly by giving them this gift of whatever it is they will like you more and they will want to do business with you and finally after they see themselves doing business with you they've made a commitment to you they will want to continue to do business with somebody they like and now you've got people interacting with one another who like one another and why trying to be generous with that with one another another i don't know how you get a
Speaker 1better work environment than that absolutely i love this uh okay a couple final questions that i ask everyone at the end uh but before i ask the questions i want people to get the book influence i've bought this for so many people i've given it to so many people over the last decade it's now updated expanded with a lot of new research information uh that can really educate you on how to integrate and implement these principles into your life and your relationships in your business so i want people to get the book get a few copies for friends again over five million copies already sold lots of incredible praise and testimonials and it's given me incredible results in my life i'm trying to influence by just letting you guys know all these things um and uh it's been a it's been a joy to to connect with you robert and have you on and i hope to have you on in person again in the future sometime this this question is called the three truths question i ask everyone at the end of the show it's called three truths i'd like you to imagine a hypothetical scenario that you get to it's your last day on earth many many years away and you get to live as long as you want but eventually you gotta you gotta go on to the next place and you've accomplished every dream you have robert you've got all these dreams goals you the fulfillment it all happens for you but for whatever reason you've got to take all of your written work video content audio it's all going to go with you somewhere else or it's got to go somewhere else but it can't be here anymore and you get to leave behind three lessons to the world three things you know to be true from all your experiences and all your wisdom that you would leave behind what would you say would be those three truths for you um one is one
Speaker 2that we've uh just described go into new situations thinking the best of people so which allows you to be generous all right the second is also something we've talked about don't have a favorite principle of influence because to think that the same principle is going to work on all audiences with all histories with you with all kites times of types of products and services no you you choose the one that's in there first right you you the the thing that's that's already there and the final one really has to do with another book that i wrote called persuasion and it is that there is people think that the way to make an i a an appeal or a message more successful is what you put into the message and that's those seven principles right so that's true but it turns out there's research to show what you put into the message and that's what you put into the message and that's what you say or do before you ever send your message puts people in a mindset that is consistent with your message and then that message becomes even more successful so what i would say is think about arranging for people to be in a state of mind that's consistent with the central feature of your message before you send it um so if it's about uh it's about uh scarcity so for example there was a study that showed that if you have a message asking people to take a stand that uh or to purchase something that's scarce if you send them an email with two ticking down clock emojis in the subject line they become 15 percent more likely to buy a scarce opportunity wow because you've put them in mind of scarcity yeah i love
Speaker 1this stuff this is fascinating for me um i've got one final question for you but i want to make sure people get the book they can go online and get influenced the new and expanded version the psychology of persuasion they can follow you on social media robert cialdini on twitter and i'll see you in the next one bye bye facebook as well are you on instagram also i'm not sure yeah we
Speaker 2are but i think the best place is uh our our website influence at
Speaker 1work.com influence at work Go there. You can opt in for the newsletter. You can get all the information. There's got data, research, all the papers are there, all that stuff. You're the godfather of influence, a lot of people call you, and it's been fun to watch your journey as I've started my journey to discover your journey and decades of research and work that you put in long before I got into this. It's been fun to implement your research and your findings and really see incredible benefits, so I appreciate that. I want to acknowledge you, Robert, for the consistency of your efforts, the consistency and your dedication to finding the answers, to finding solutions on how we can improve the quality of our life, improve the quality of our business, our relationships through these practical and influential, I guess, psychological principles. And I'm just so grateful that you continue to show up in the way you do, and then you continue to speak this message, that you speak about it, you write about it, and continue to offer us tools to improve these different areas of our lives. So I really acknowledge you for how you've shown up in the world. It's amazing, Robert. And my final question for you is what's your definition of greatness? I don't know.
Speaker 2I would say the ability to transcend your circumstances, not to be imprisoned or to have a ceiling based on the circumstances that have been dealt to you, that you can get above and beyond those circumstances.
Speaker 1Robert, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it. Good. I enjoyed it. Friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact a hundred million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you, and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. And it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.
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