The Parenting Shift Nobody Prepares You For (Introducing The In-Between Years)

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There's a moment when your child starts changing, emotionally, physically, relationally, and suddenly the instincts that guided you so well when they were young, the ones that you practiced year after year and honed in on. Now all of a sudden they don't land the same way anymore. You reach for their hair the way you always have, they flinch, why are you touching me? You say, come on, tell me what's going on, just here to listen, and they say, stop interrogating me, you don't even know they had that word in their vocabulary. And I mean really, your kid is using the word interrogate for truly benign interest in their life, and isn't that what we're supposed to be doing as parents being interested in their life. And then you have this moment where you say, okay, I'm going to try something different, I'm going to go back to that warm voice. I used when they were little and they roll their eyes at you, and they say, please don't talk to me like that, or you are so cringe, that's the one I get all the time. Now to be clear, I'm laughing as I talk about some of these moments, but they can really feel awful. It makes you feel rejected, and sad, and it also can make you feel angry, like I have parented you for over a decade, and I'm sorry, what is this? And it makes sense if under that anger, maybe late at night is also hurt. I miss my little kid. This is a conversation about that transition, those hard moments, and making sense of all of it as much as we can together. This is a conversation about what happens when you move into the tween and teen years, which yes seem to start earlier than ever these days. A stage when parenting asks something so different from us. I am joined today by someone who is very much part of the good inside family, and very much tuned into that moment, and someone who I always want to talk to about the tween and teen struggles in my house, Dr. Cheryl Zickler. Dr. Cheryl has been on the show a couple times before, and every single time, parents write in saying, oh, my goodness, she gets it more of her. Cheryl's a clinical psychologist who spent years working closely with parents of tweens and teens helping them understand what's actually happening underneath behavior, and helping them figure out how to stay anchored through a stage that can feel very disorienting, and yes, very personal. Today's conversation is also special because it marks the beginning of something new for us, but Dr. Cheryl is launching a new podcast here at Good Inside, one specifically for parents of tweens and teens. And she'll be launching the puberty, tween and teen vertical in the good inside app. So many of you have asked us to kind of grow alongside you, and we listened, and now we are. All right, Cheryl, you have been on this podcast a bunch of times, but for anyone who is hearing you for the first time, let's just start, introduce yourself, and just share a little bit about the stuff that's interesting to you, the age groups you focus on, let's go there. So I'm a psychologist and I've been working with kids and families for a long time now, and I work with tweens and teens mostly. I used to work with the youngers, but sometimes we move our interests. And I just started focusing on tweens. I would say like 10 years ago or so, when I realized like even I thought 12 and under or just kids and 13 and over or teens. And like that's fine, you know, and then I realized like, wait, there's this little, there's a small gap in the middle and it could be like 8 to 12 or 9 to 13 ish where that term tween really really does make sense like that in between or kind of thing. And so I work with both tweens and teens, but I have this super soft spot for that like I'm one foot in childhood and I'm one foot in adolescence. Like I don't know which day it were the foot is, but like the middle is always messy. You know, one of my favorite business books right is called the messy middle right and that the middle is always messy. So on that note. You've also worked so much with parents of kind of kids in those messy middle childhood years. What tends to catch them by surprise. I think what happens is they feel like, wait, I actually I'm starting to feel confident or I have just started to feel competent and now all of a sudden like, who is this kid? Like I thought I knew I knew how to calm you. I knew what you liked. I know what your favorite dessert is or who your favorite teacher is and all of a sudden you come home and it's not one day, but it can feel like and then one day they're like, I don't even like that anymore. Yes. Or like, oh, no, that, you know, bandwidth. That's that's like dumb. I'm not into that. If you're like, wait, what? When are you going to give me the memo? Like this was your favorite I swear last week. Yes, I think what you just said is so powerful. You are starting to feel competent as a parent and it can feel like in one moment. Kind of your kid change your kid is kind of quote gone, but you feel like your competence is gone. Like the feelings that parents have in that shift are what? Loss. Loss is the first one and some confusion and sometimes some anger and sometimes just some sadness. Like the house can all of a sudden feel quieter. The biggest thing in terms of like that feeling of loss is you lose the ability to feel like, wait, like I'm actually the leader. And I set the rules and it's like, no, now I need an invitation to go into your room. I almost need an invitation to hug you. And in a way, even talk to you sometimes, like they're having their own experience and I'm no longer eyes in my role to as a mom, like the leader of it. Like I'm setting the tone. We're going to go have pizza and do this tonight. Like a lot of times they're setting the tone like, no, I'm just going to be a moment. I'm just going to do this. Yeah. And I'm picturing the galaxy and wishing I had more science knowledge. The thing that comes to mind is like when they're young, they're kind of a planet that orbits around us. They gaze at us. Even when they're annoyed or even when they're melting down, you know they need you. They're like looking at you, you set the tone. You're the thing they orbit around and it can feel very sudden. I love the words you said. I think not because they're pleasant, but because they're real loss, sadness, anger, rejection, right? Because you've gotten used to eight years, 10 years, 12 years of this relationship and the relationship even if it went through down ups and downs, I think had the same model. When they're younger, presence is really important, but they're kind of all over the place. Then they're jumping and they're skipping and they're putting on a show for you and they're playing very active. And then when they become like a twin and when I say that I mean, they're probably starting puberty, they're having hormonal shifts, they're confused themselves. What they need is like they don't need a playmate anymore. They really need the steady person to almost go back to and be like, wait, who am I again? And then your presence reminds them and they're like, OK, that's who I was. And now I'm off to go figure out who I am now. Yes. And that's like a big shift. And I don't think we prepare anybody for that. I think parents are more prepared for the teens and what they perceive is going to be a really hard time and lots of defiance. But the twins, I think that's why we feel lost. It's like, oh my gosh, I was robbed of my time with my kid. You know, I know you and I as clinical psychologists think a lot about attachment, right? And attachment is all about a kid's relationship with the secure base, right? And so before it was kind of like your kid and the secure base, which is you are really close. And actually goal of that secure base is that they load up on enough connection, on enough confidence that now they can actually do the job that they need to do when they get older, which is to explore. But when that exploration starts, which is usually exploration of I don't like to watch movies because they're like, maybe I don't. I don't know. Let me see, right? I want to be alone. Oh, let me see. I know for me too. It's so easy as that base. Like, well, you move here. I'm going to retaliate and we, and then we kind of remove the anchor that they don't tell us they need, but talk about that. Do they still really need? They really need it. They really need it. It just feels different. So like, like you're talking and I'm tracking you. So I want it. Yes, there's, there's one parent who might be like, I'm feeling rejected. So now like, I'm going to kind of reject you. in my own ways, like, we're gonna go have fun and have movie night without yeses. I'm not a bobbin' bobbin' bobbin' bobbin'. I'm gonna watch it to your younger brother. He still loves me. I'm like, oh, yes. - Oh, yes. - Oh, yeah. Oh, they'll still give me hugs. - Right. (laughs) - Like, so yes, it's like passive aggressive, like, basically, it's so mad at you. There's that version. Then there's the other version, which is, you're getting away, and I'm gonna run after you, and the more you try to get away from me, the more I'm gonna try to pull you back. - Run, pursue, run, pursue. - Yes, and so, I do wanna say, the more you do that, the more they tend to run, even harder, even faster. And what used to feel like, oh, that's so supportive, like, maybe I'm seven, and like, I had a hard day, and Nick, you lean into them, and you're like, let's go home and like, let's talk about it, and let's like eat cookies and milk, and, you know, like, they would have loved that, like a seven-year-old may love that, or a kid before puberty. Well, love that. You do that to a kid who's in puberty, and trying to get away from you, and it's like, you're so annoying, and you don't even know what I need anymore. And it's like, oh, my gosh. And so, and you really might not know what they need, actually. You're doing it. It comes out of love. I'm gonna pursue you. How about we try this? Do you wanna go here? Do you wanna do this? And so instead, though, what you have to do is honor the process. - Yeah, and it's so painful. It's such a new language, because I think, look, and we all, in some ways, get comforted by binaries, 'cause it's simple, right? And it's like, okay, well, if you don't want me to run after you, I guess I'm just gonna go out every night, because you don't even need me at night. And it's so hard to learn this new language of no and no. Right? Like, there's something in the middle. It makes me think, like, I'm gonna run after you, is one, the other extreme is fine, forget it. And in the middle, and maybe I'm curious, this is what you mean about kind of honoring the process, is like, I'm here, I'm here. I'm not banging down your door. I'm not locking myself out of the house. And I'm around, I'm waiting a little more, I'm available a little more. And I know, in the work I've done in that age group, even if that doesn't mean your kid comes to you for that hug on the couch, it matters. Do you see that, too? That just out here, that middle? Oh, yeah, I think it's almost one of the essential roles, and which is really hard, 'cause it might feel like for, at times, and again, this is at times, 'cause this is a roller coaster, 'cause at times they're like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna sleep with you tonight. And do I get my stuff? Yes. You can be like, build a fort, and you're like, wait. Yesterday, you didn't even want me anywhere in the vicinity of you, and today, and so that's part of the roller coaster. I do actually think, like, I know, like, honor the process. What I really mean by that is like, understand what's literally happening inside their brain. Ooh, and body. So can you tell us that? Yeah, like, it's like, what parents think of as my kid, I don't know them anymore, or they're so different, or they're trying out these new roles. What that actually is happening inside is there's a restructuring of the brain. And the brain is pumping out hormones. Things are growing, things are happening, moods are happening, and they really don't know how to handle them. And so think of your kid. It's like if you were watching them try something brand new, or a really hard puzzle, or something that you've just never seen them do before. And think to yourself, okay, my job here is to observe them, trying to figure out this problem, not to solve it, not to come in and say, oh my gosh, this puzzle piece, it goes right here. I'm here. If you want some help, like, maybe on the corners, or something, I'm here, but otherwise, I'm gonna trust that you're gonna figure this out, and it's gonna take a really long time. And while you're figuring that out, I'm silently over here trying to figure out how to just watch you. Just, I'm gonna figure out how to watch you. And I'm saying the thing that strikes me in your language, I don't know if you realize this, is to give parents permission, you don't know how to do this yet with your kid. You're also figuring this out. So of course you are also gonna say things like, and your brother will hug me. And then you're gonna pursue, and that you're figuring out a new parenting phase too. When they are like, well, I don't even know. I didn't, you know, I didn't make the, they didn't get called back on the audition or whatever. It's not our job to be like, oh my gosh, well, do you wanna do more classes? That's what we wanna do. We wanna pressure that instead to be like, hey, wonder what that's like? I wonder, I'm curious about just reflecting, you seem really disappointed. Like, I know when parents hear this, like, that's it. It's like, yeah, that's it, and it's really hard. - My move is, I'm not gonna say one word, because I know whatever word, it's gonna be twit, it's gonna, you know, and we do that sometimes, but it might, it's so, in some ways, it's harder and simpler. Oh, the sucks. And then, you're right, the parents were like, well, and then what, it's so hard. I often think whenever I go into, and then what, maybe the answer's always nothing? Like, and waiting and watching and allowing the next thing to happen, right? Yes, so I wanna even bring what you just said to life more, because I'm picturing you doing this with your kid, and when you say waiting and watching, that doesn't mean turning around, leaving the rooms, looking at your phone, starting to clean, vacuum, right, presence means like, I'm not gonna fill the space with my words and try to make you feel better or distract you. There might be a time in a place like that, but probably in this moment, like, I just need to kinda sit here, and I'd start dinner. I might start like picking up lightly. I'm not gonna be though completely distracted. I'm kinda doing it to not make it awkward. Yep. And if they start crying, or if they get mad, or something, it's like, I'm here. Yes. (upbeat music) You know, it reminds me, I was just, you know, talking with a group of parents who have deeply feeling kids, and one of the things they talk about with those kids, when they had these huge explosions and being in the room with them, and I was like, what am I supposed to do? And it's so hard to access something that helps you embody this type of, they're not fixing, not pulling away presents, and it was a parent who once said, I imagine being a potted plant, because a room is different with a potted plant. Like a potted plant isn't like, doing that much, but like, everyone knows a potted plant changes a room. And she said to me, I just say to myself, potted plant, potted plant, potted plant, potted plant. And there's something similar in that presence, it's not overbearing, it's not fixing, it's not withdrawing, and I think that's, it applies to this age group too. For me, with three teens in the house, I feel like, I really do operate as a potted plant. I might hear a conversation going on, I might see, I can tell, something's happening on text or something, and I'm not hovering. Yeah, I want to, I want to know what's going on, but I'm just like, there. And just, what I think is important is sometimes you take a concept and we can be me too, too literal. So for the parent who's like, I can't do that, I'm working or I'm out of the house. Like that's, right, if washing the dishes while your kid is around is not your thing or not possible, all good. You're not disqualified from this, right? It's just about channeling a different way of showing up, right? And playing around with different ways that you can do that that feel like you. I think even when our kids are young, we make the mistake of using their immediate reaction as a barometer for whether we're doing a good job. Oh my goodness, does that not work when you have a twin and teen? Absolutely, like, just going along the lines, I also had somebody say to me recently, like, this is just crazy. It was like the second semester and we got a note that said, you need new folders and check your kid's pencil bag or they need new pens like that, kind of school supply refresh. And so the mom was like, so I went to my kid and was like, hey, I got the email, what do you think you need? I don't need anything. She was like, okay, what if I just get the things? And I just like put them out and then they can just pick for them. And so next time I saw her, how did it work? It's great, took two folders, you know, took the loose leaf paper. But it was like in that moment, the kid just could not accept, like, mom's coming to the rescue, like, and even, and again, even those six months from now, they might be like, can we go school shopping? Right. One of the things I think also matters is how do we show up this way and appreciate this kind of new hormone-driven stage, maybe, without totally losing myself? Because there might be a moment where you say after, look, you're getting older. And the truth is, pretty soon, I'm going to ask you to be responsible for your supplies, right? Because I'm not going to always just make it better, right? But also, like, there are going to be moments that I still want to help and I can. And you might not like it, but the way you spoke to me yesterday, I just know you can do better than that. Like, it, because I think parents still need permission to not feel like, like, oh, so am I, am I a potted plant slash punching bag? Is that for my cater for me? So how do you, you know, how do you think about that? - Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. I think a lot of parents say things like, all of a sudden, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells or I'm like, by 11-year-olds. And what's wrong with this picture? And I can so resonate with that. And I think that the way you just said that is absolutely. I mean, that's even nicer, maybe, than I would say it. I would just be like, you can have your feelings, but it's actually not okay to talk to me that way. I don't want to be spoken to that way, maybe we can do a redo. I'm a big and to like let's do a redo and maybe we'll just do that tonight like we can't do it right now but we need to redo that and I think that's really is important because again they aren't doing these things on purpose they are not being disrespectful on purpose they're not rejecting you on purpose they haven't figured out yet think about how hard it is to go okay somehow something my body something I need to separate from you and I need to be my own person and I need to have my own thoughts and I can change my mind about things but how do I how do I do that without just kicking you to the curb and so just if we can just think about how hard it is for them they don't know quite what's happening yeah or why it you know one of the things that you always talk about and I still do with couples in my practice who are working on their partnership is just this baseline idea that it is a very hard thing to say something that is equally truthful to me as it is respectful of you there's not a lot of adults work great at balancing that can I say something that feels very true I need space or but it but is equally respectful that that's like a life practice and so yeah it's true when my nine year old is in this conundrum I'm supposed to be independent I want to get older I want to separate I still need my mom for school supplies like they're probably not gonna articulate that in the most sophisticated way I also see the other side of that where people are like what's wrong with me like I obviously I'm doing something wrong I have people say that to me all the time I don't know what I'm doing obviously I'm doing clearly I'm doing something wrong here I don't know what to do I'm a failure I'm trying hard at something but like I keep failing and so there's that other side where yeah maybe at first it's like what's wrong with them but what I find is so much then it turns on ourselves yes wrong with me maybe the answer is this doesn't have to be anyone's fault and it could just be like hey what's going on what do I need to feel more empowered to have more clarity in the situation and I can spend my energy there instead of kind of fault right absolutely I mean I know I know like to me that's a win right yeah it does something that seems like so rude yeah and instead of like going in there and you know reacting where you just sort of like take a breath yeah and it's like hey I know you don't normally talk to me like this you don't really act like this so I'm just wondering you know yeah I'm wondering what's going on or I'm thinking that today maybe wasn't all such a great day yep but man taking a breath oh and thinking like maybe and maybe you're like well my kid always talks like that okay if they've been talking like that a lot lately like yes it's been happening kind of a lot lately and I know you to be different or I you know you're normally such a sweet kid inside like it always shifts things when it's like we're in a hard moment and then I remind you of something that's totally genuine that is like that goodness because it then lets them know like you still see my goodness that's right even though like I don't even actually know why I just snap to you remember there's that piece for them that they're like if you do say let's say like what's wrong with you and they're just like I don't know nothing really they're just like I really don't know I don't know why you're so annoying I don't know I think it's like kind of the ultimate act of love is when you see kind of the good inside someone else in the moment that they actually are struggling to access it themselves right yeah speaking about those moments and we're thinking about the moment that a kid does something that you know we probably know on some level they would regret but maybe they're in shame they're stuck whatever it is what about the moments we do the thing we we out we snap we say horrible words to our kid we come down harshly on them about something that you know I don't know maybe it's more about a hard day we had or whatever it is I can I don't know the power of repair with those middle childhood years to teen years talk about that I mean I just want to go back to like when someone's listening right now and they're just like I don't actually even really know what you do mean of apology is that what you mean and it's like it's actually a little bit different than apology apology can be part of it yeah I think repairs like it's it's it is a little bit of an art because you're not making an excuse like hey you know what I had a really hard day today and so when I came home and I snapped at you that really wasn't about you was about my hard day right that's pretty good repair it's just you don't want to externalize it yeah meaning like you don't want to just be like oh okay so every time she has a hard day is just like come home and yell at me you know and then just like it allows you to drop deeper right so just like I'm just gonna drop deeper so I want to say a I'm gonna imagine everyone's gonna lose their patience or not be their best self and then be it's like going back and just being like you know it's actually it's not okay and I realize I've been I have been working a lot and it doesn't allow me to show up for you the way that I wish that I could and I'm really sorry for that so tomorrow right then you can end it like tomorrow I'm going to maybe I'm gonna be home in an hour later so I'm gonna stop at the gyms I think that's maybe that's what I need or I'm gonna go grab dinner with a friend so I'm not gonna be home tomorrow's a little bit later because I want to come home and be the best version myself for you yes and I think without basically feeling myself I'm not gonna be able to get there and just saying I'm sorry I'm blaming it on a hard day isn't enough I think the difference between repair versus kind of an apology I always think an apology is just trying to shut a conversation down I'm sorry I yelled we're good right it's just like you feel it shut it down and you want us to go quickly a good repair like opens up something new and that's the thing you were missing anyways like that connection right what would that mean to say I crushed that right and if you think about that it's not just about giving something to your kid it's actually giving about something to you too what's better than being like I crushed that parenting moment I am so proud and we're all only proud of a moment that's hard none of us are too proud of anything easy so hey I'm I'm sorry I yelled and that wasn't okay and I'm sure that felt bad right like and you can say wow it's so weird I had one of my hardest and best parenting moments in the same day the same week right and I just want to underscore what you're saying and writing for our tweens and teens especially it's like saying hey that secure base is still here still the anchor you need it more than ever because you're doing more exploration than ever right and again they might roll their eyes it's fine but it matters so much it does and if I think if like if someone's listening and they're they're like okay I want to apply this myself I'll just share what what when people are practicing repair and they come back and tell me I feel like a common theme is they say I was able to say to my kid hey I'm really sorry I've never parented a 12 year old before or I've never parented you at 12 before right so even if you have older kids love that I've never parented you at 12 which doesn't make it okay that I yelled I'm sorry and I'm learning alongside you right it makes me think about taking a moment for us anyone listening to to think about your own parent and I think right at good inside we're always trying to help people hold multiplicity multiple things can be true and I think something that's like hard to hold at once is kind of accountability and compassion your mod your repair had both like I'm being accountable for what I did and I even have self compassion and compassion for you like we've never done this before and I think that a lot of us have a lot of feelings about our parents and how they raised us and to even think about our own parents like oh my mom never parented me when I was 14 until that moment my dad never handled me at 16 until I was 16 and that doesn't take away the pain you felt or feeling unseen we can hold that reality next to that compassion they can just both be there and I think that's just so powerful I think so too and I just want to say that I think this stage that we're talking about like puberty being a tween oh they're not quite like the super independent to find teen but they're not my baby anymore I think that provokes a lot of feelings emotions memories yes and parents and I've gotten tons of feedback around yeah whoa I didn't know that was going to come up for me or these memories have come up for me and haven't thought about that in so many years so I think it's really common Cheryl if a parent is listening and they're just thinking I love my kid but I feel completely unprepared for this stage I don't know what do you want to say to them every parent has the ability to sort of say I've never done this stage before maybe like I'm kind of scared of it or I'm not really looking forward to it and I'm really excited for what could be hmm I think that's the reframe this doesn't have to be a rupture in the relationship this doesn't have to be oh you know my baby's like gone and lost and they don't need me more it really doesn't have to be that way I think if we can go into it curious and again even with some excitement like there there are moments I think even when as hard as this stage can be where I think a parent should feel that sense of like wow yeah look at this thing how like they're 12 and they want to take a babysitting class? - Yeah. - Like, oh my gosh, it wasn't that long ago. I was hiring babysitters for you. 'Cause at 12, you can take a babysitting class. - Yeah. - Let's celebrate that. - Listeners, this conversation is a doorway into a new stage of parenting. And for us, it's also the beginning of a new podcast. If you're listening and realizing, oh, this explains why things feel harder lately. I want you to know you're not behind and you're not failing. Your child is growing up. And that growth asks for a shift, not just from them, but from you too. And you don't have to figure this all out alone. Our new podcast is called The In Between Years With Me, Dr. Cheryl. We're making a space for parents of teens and tweens who want to understand what's really happening in this stage, emotionally, socially, and physically. And how to stay connected even when things feel messy, tense, or unfamiliar. We'll talk about identity, independence, conflict, repair, boundaries, and trust. Not as tactics to manage kids, but as ways of showing up more steadily in relationships that are evolving. You'll hear stories and approaches grounded in research findings. I'll share my stories from my own years of clinical practice and teaching. And you'll hear the voices and stories of real parents and teens about their challenges and their wins. If you're already part of the Good Inside Community, this is an extension of one core belief. Kids and their parents are Good Inside, and we don't need to be perfect to be deeply impactful. If you're new here, we're really glad you found us. We hope you'll let us know what you think and what you want to hear. See our show notes for ways to get in touch and follow me on Instagram at Dr. Cheryl at Good Inside. Okay, zooming out. This in-between stage feels hard because it is hard. And if you remember nothing else, remember this. They act like they don't need you. They still need you. I'll see you next week.