The Only-Bibi Camp Vs Never-Bibi Camp - with Ari Shavit

Then from one to ten, how would you rate your gifting talent maybe a seven you the most stressful day of the year is my wife's birthday But for the sake of Shlombite, let's just leave it at that you have it easy along yours Really so you don't have to face the stress of holiday gifting around Hanukkah right right because we just give out some Sofganiyot and call it a day right eight days of gifts Well, this year we're making Hanukkah gifting a whole lot easier by giving the gift of Inside call me back to a friend or family member or colleague You'll also be supporting what we do here at ARC media So follow the link in the show notes and gift a subscription to inside call me back and here's the kicker To those who gift eight subscriptions or more Dan will send you a personalized copy of his most recent book the genius of Israel Just let us know who you'd like him to dedicate it to went when do we discuss this we just did then Okay, then bring it just follow the link right here in the show notes and send your Hanukkah gift now In the last decades and especially in the last decade We've been taken by a dangerous Bacteria called bb's is because we are just obsessed with one person when you open your mouth in Israel People are not interested if you are nice or not nice if you are tall or short if you are blonde or brown They're just interested if you are for baby or against baby We stop dealing without health with our education without security We are torn in the most dramatic way over one person It's 10 p.m. On Wednesday, December 3rd here in New York city It's 5 a.m. On Thursday, December 4th in Israel where Israelis are waiting news as to whether one of the two Remaining hostages was in fact returned Today Wednesday, five IDF soldiers were wounded including one seriously in an attack by Palestinian operatives in Eastern Rafa Where dozens of Hamas terrorists are believed to be trapped in a tunnel underground in response to the violation of the cease fire The IDF struck a Hamas target in Rafa Palestinian media reported that at least six Palestinians were killed in the strike Meanwhile early this week Prime Minister Netanyahu came under heavy criticism among many in the press and in the Knesset Ford vancing a bill that would continue to grant service exemptions for full-time Yashiva or religious seminary students from the IDF while Relaxing some of the enforcement measures outlined in previous drafts today former Prime Minister Nufthali Bennett who is one of the leading challengers or potential challengers to Prime Minister Netanyahu in the next election released a pre-recorded video in which he Accused Prime Minister Netanyahu of advancing a law that would eliminate any chance of wide spread Kharedi or ultra orthodox enlistment in the IDF He added and I quote there are only two options to draft our Haredi brothers so that they shoulder their share or to impose on our reservists another 120 reserve days every year on a permanent basis Close quote all of this unfolds as we slowly approach the next Israeli elections Which are set for October 2026 at the latest they'll likely happen sometime before then As Prime Minister Netanyahu grapples with these various issues We thought it would be a good opportunity to do a deep dive into Netanyahu's impact on The Israeli social and political landscape throughout these past few decades and right up into the present It's especially timely to have this conversation because one can't really understand the debate inside Israel right now Over whether the president of Israel should pardon Prime Minister Netanyahu without Understanding this history we are going to get into today and to discuss all of this we are joined once again by Ari Shavit Ari is an Israeli journalist and the author of a number of books Not the least of which is my promise land which we will link to in the show notes Ari Shavit on the never BB camp versus the only BB camp. This is call me back And I'm pleased to welcome back to this podcast are you Shavit who joined us from Tel Aviv are you good to see you pleasure to be with you Ari, I want to jump into this for the better part of a decade We have been living in a world where personality Cult of personality in some cases plays a larger role than ideology necessarily does in shaping politics in the role that the world Viewer political philosophy plays and it's true. By the way, this is not unique to Israel. It's true in many countries and It is very true who has it relates to Israel and the role Prime Minister Netanyahu plays every question is really politics is where you stand vis-a-vis Netanyahu that's the question less about what he stands for, but where you stand relative to him But Israel doesn't have a two-party system So before we define the camps of only BB and never BB How do these two tribes map over the ideological spectrum? Where do they sit? Is it just like a right-wing block versus a left-wing block? As things stand now Netanyahu faces or the Rakhlo BB there never BB or anyone but BB camp has five six leaders from the left Yael Golan and the social Democratic doves to the right Lieberman who is a hawk and a very, you know, right-wing person So it's not the traditional right-left divide and yet Israel is torn over three major issues one is Netanyahu But the other two issues is whether Israel is more Jewish or more democratic and then whether Democracy is more direct rule of the majority or more checks and balances So there is a kind of overlap between these three issues It's not total, but the people who oppose Netanyahu generally the democratic dimension of the identity of the country and the more liberal democratic Dimension of democracy is very important for them and all of them see Netanyahu as a dangerous Phenomena and if you wish in a sentence, I think the feeling is that while in the past Netanyahu was a Republican American He became a French monarch that with all these years in power He himself became royal and the attitude of his supporters is not like a regular political leader But it's the admiration for a kind of king So that is I think where the divide is right now Okay, so I just want to just put a final point on it So you have for instance leaders on the right in Israel who are viewed as core to the never BB camp the Rakhlo BB camp And they include people like Avidor Lieberman who was once BB's chief of staff would arguably be considered to the right of BB now He's been for some kind of either annexation or forced population removal over the years of Palestinians You have enough tally Bennett who was the leader really of the political movement Representing the settlement movement. I mean these are people Ideologically and historically have been far to the right of Netanyahu and yet in some respects The left today is betting on them to be part of the force that takes out BB Absolutely look the most striking phenomena right now Bennett who's the leading Opposition leader of the candidate right now the main rival presidential candidate if you wish Gets he's clearly a right-wing person who gets most of his votes from the center from this rally center Because they don't care about the issue of the West Bank or other issues The main thing is get the best person who can get BB out of office Is this a new phenomenon where you have these right-wing players who are part of the never BB camp? It's relatively new many people in the right Historically we're suspicious of BB that he will betray them And I want to remind you BB gave the Barlan speech BB froze settlement building in 2010 The speech he gave in 2009 where he said he reckoned for the first time he would pursue a Palestinian state Yeah BB endorse his own version of the two-state solution 2009 froze settlements Negotiated two-state solution under President Obama so there were people on the right who were suspicious of him But I think that what you see today with Lieberman and Bennett and others is a relatively new phenomena of people who are totally right-wing But they think the main threat to the country is BB in power and therefore they're willing to cooperate with people on the left on the center in order to Get rid of BB. Okay, so then how would you define these two groups these two camps from a demographic and an identity perspective Who are they in Israeli society and just take us through them? So I think what is so important to understand is that Originally they leaked under begging and then more so under Netanyahu created a coalition of minorities if you wish of social groups somewhat resembling FDR's democratic party originally four groups the lower middle class working class and middle class Mizrahiim the ultra orthodox the ultra-nationalist and the Russians As Lieberman broke away. We are left with three groups. So today the Netanyahu coalition is very much these three groups I would say that there are two driving sentiments there one is I would say Fear of our enemies of our Arab neighbors and mainly the Palestinians And the other is resentment to white secular Tel Aviv So in a sense, it's a people the battle is between the insiders and the people of the periphery Now what's so striking about the people on the other side there never BB people That in many ways they are like the core of it is kind of Mayflower Israel, okay In the past I used to describe this population as wasps Israel's wasps white Ashkenazi supporters of peace Now these people don't believe in peace anymore, but many of them the core of it is white secular Ashkenazi's Anti-BB. It's not they don't believe in peace just I would say they have a realistic view about the prospects for peace We know what happened. We know what happened So the peace was replaced by democracy if you wish these people now feel that democracy is in danger So if you wish what you have is an interesting struggle, and I think it's important in order to make peace within Israel to understand both sentiments I think there is a profound fear among my friends and colleagues in the Tel Aviv area liberal Israel That really democracy is in danger and the Israel that our grandparents built is the very identity of it is in danger And the people on the other side feel that the trauma of the past is very deep and I want to concentrate for a moment on the Mizrahi population Because I think that many American Jews are not aware enough of this phenomenon Originally Israel was built for Ashkenazi for European Jews After the diaspora Jews come from the Arab-speaking countries They feel many of them feel that in the 1950s and 60s and 70s they were dealt very badly And they feel that by now they've arrived. Okay, they have political power. They succeeded in business. They are in the army But they feel that there are two three closed clubs that they don't enter The judiciary, the media, the civil service up to extent So while the people who support Netanyahu feel that they are oppressed by an old aristocracy and they want to get in The people inside who held power or still hold power in Israel in many ways fear that the Jewish democratic country, the enlightened Zionist nation is under danger because of these powers The issue here is not specifically territory. It's not specific this issue Even the judiciary debate which is so important is an expression of those two profound feelings of what we will see in the elections next year Is the clash between fear acute existential fear of liberal Israel on the one hand Enraged among the Netanyahu supporters who feel that they've been left out that after all They made it but they didn't quite made it and they feel that they are still discriminated against to this day What has been the impact of this division on the country as a whole? Oh, this has been disastrous. This has been disastrous. You know, one of the articles that I'm rather proud of that I wrote six years ago is called Bebeezus And I say Israel is an amazing country. I think we are the most wonderful people We have an amazing as you wrote in your books. We've achieved so much In the last decades and especially in the last decade We've been taken by a dangerous bacteria called Bebeezus Because we are just obsessed with one person In a paraphrase on an Israeli popular song I say at the end of every sentence we say in Hebrew there is a bebe with a cigar Okay, when you open your mouth and Israel people are not interested if you are nice or not nice If you are tall or short if you are blonde or brown they're just interested if you are for bebe or against bebe So this obsession we stop dealing with our health with our education without security I think this is one of the reasons that major reasons that led to October 7 We are so obsessed Now where is the irony the irony is when you see people that actually ideologically are not that much apart Okay, because many of these especially Mizrahi Like moderate pragmatic right okay, and many people on the center today the differences regarding the Palestinian issue friends It's minimal if at all you have sometimes people are more moderate in the Likud's Natania than in Yashatid Zanana, okay And yet people cannot speak to each other they cannot listen and we are torn in the most dramatic way over one person Over one person. I I'll tell you between us that I personally think At all I try to be fair to Netanyahu I think that if it was a decent politician leader would have said just because the nation is so obsessed with me I should resign again even if I'm the greatest leader ever But this is where we are the implication of this 30 years and now these 10 years of ongoing conceptual Emotional civil war regarding one person is really tearing the country apart and they're like three issues They create real divides regarding the ultra orthodox regarding the Palestinians and regarding their settlers Great stories role or not. These are real issues The Netanyahu issue became much stronger than all of them and in my mind, you know There are elements of it that are really such fierce battle over one person with no deep ideologies behind it What is it about Netanyahu? His personality his politics his style of politics What is it that so viscerally divides Israelis that creates what you could just call this bebesis like What is it? Yeah, so first about you know Netanyahu generally speaking has very few friends real friends one of the real friends He had told me once you know are I never met a person it's such an impressive person and such a flawed person in one suit There is a combination in him of talent and flaws which I don't want won't go into right now that is Driving this nation nuts, you know for 20 years. I mean, there is something rather unique about his personality That's number one number two it is this letter and was syndrome at a certain point I think it's around 2014 or 2015 look then the Netanyahu I knew in the 2000s when he first became prime minister late 90s Was a moderate reasonable conservative who actually looked for the center he was looking for the central ground And what happened that because he felt so rejected by the Israeli elites Because he felt haunted and because he is to put it mildly a suspicious person He sunk into a bunker so since 2014-1516 You see a new Netanyahu who is very different than the previous one And I think the judicial process made this worse And ever since also there is some import from America without getting into it So the old Netanyahu was not a populist at all the genuine Netanyahu is in 19th century Tory Okay, now you have an angry populist who became much more aggressive But he's also attacked much more aggressively But I want to explain how this looks to the two camps to the two tribes In my mind for the many in liberal Israel in Tel Aviv Israel Netanyahu makes people angry because his English is better than ours Okay, there is among these circles there is a feeling no we we go to Princeton We go to the fine places on Fifth Avenue. We are worldly Suddenly there is a leader of the people on the other side Who is better than us in all of that, okay? And there is an element that I think makes people very it's a profound feeling Beyond the justified fears regarding the way he behaves On the other side you have a mirror image of that Because people who feel that there is still an old aristocracy that is oppressing them Feel suddenly we have a hero We have a king to fight the old aristocracy So the identity look I one of my hobbies is to go to Likud rallies I don't care about Netanyahu. I don't listen to him. I'm interested in his voters And the sentiment I hear everywhere there is the sentiment I'm just describing We are oppressed We are not represented in the media properly in the old media now there's new media The judiciary keeps us out we feel oppressed And Netanyahu is the only one fighting for us is how here so you have these two conflicting narratives Which intensify the drama regarding the real person But Ari I take your point that Netanyahu you would argue that Netanyahu has changed But I would argue that the environment in which Netanyahu was elected for the first time back in 1996 Is in some respects not different than what we're dealing with today The the intensity of the tribalism may have increased But Netanyahu won that election against Paris with a little over 1.5 million votes And Paris got a little less than 1.5 million votes Which is to say that he won by less than 1 percent and it wasn't like voter turnout was low voter turnout was close to 80 percent So you had a clearly split dare I say polarized electorate when he first got elected in 1996 And I should add that was against the backdrop about a big messy debate in Israel over the Oslo process a two-state solution The Rabin Paris pursuit of accommodation with Arfa in the PLO That would involve a path to a Palestinian state that was the cauldron from which Bibi was elected so that was not That was an issues driven election of which he was a beneficiary But it was a deeply polarized electorate and the resentment I remember it I remember the resentment towards Bibi among the same elites you're talking about now was as sneering And as sanctimonious I should add As it sometimes is today Let me be transparent I never voted for Netanyahu and I never will And I think this government is catastrophic But the sentiment you described I wrote about I'm ashamed to say in 1997 So Netanyahu was elected as you say 1996 I think at that time there was a sentiment in liberal Israel that never forgave him for the Rabin murder Just for our listeners understand As many of our listeners now Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated in 1995 But what Aris referring to is that there are many in the Israeli political class the political activist class Many in the media who believe that Netanyahu stoked the hostility to the creation of the Palestinian state in the Oslo peace process so much in the 1990s That it terrified people and kind of radicalized them to the point that the environment got so hot that someone took Rebeans life in order to stop this process that Netanyahu had been warning again So let me explain what time is so he's elected and again This is 20 years before America The liquid supporters begin to feel there is a deep state in Israel that doesn't let the elected prime minister They just chose rule And I think that Netanyahu was treated unfairly in his first term unfairly Because he was not given a chance and he was not such a horrible prime minister I mean they had some records some flaws and so on But let me defend my theory When Netanyahu comes back What's the first thing that he does in 2009? A unity government with erud Barack of old people And whose next y'all appeared in CP living So for listeners Netanyahu were populating his government when he returned with leaders of the opposition basically There is a tragedy here because there was a moderate conservative Reaching to the center to collaborate with his old flaw Feeling rejected and then becoming very angry and very aggressive now But I'll add to you something else that I think people don't know Even after the last elections which for me was catastrophic results 2022 Netanyahu reached out to the leaders of the opposition And he asked them let's form a government without bangville And they couldn't why couldn't they because of never-baby Because their constitiency will not forgive them So there was a possibility to stop all the horror that we've experienced in the last two years We could have had a Netanyahu Lapid guns government establishing 2022 But the sentiment of never-baby didn't let many guns wanted it And Yalapid doesn't want it join So this is a theme there is a theme of over dozens of years But I do insist that in the last decade we have a new Netanyahu Whether he can change again that's a question But the new Netanyahu of the last eight, nine years is much more aggressive, much more populist The end justifies the rule And the legitimacy he gives to bangville and smudges And people like that is in my mind is unfurlable Okay, let's take a break to hear a word from our sponsor One of the most enduring strengths of the Jewish people is our instinct to take responsibility For one another It's a guiding principle of the Jewish communal fund For more than 50 years, the Jewish communal fund has been a home for Jewish philanthropy Making it easy, impactful, and tax smart to give Recently, JCF fundholders granted over $1 billion to a wide range of 501(c)(3) charities in a single year Much of it going to Jewish causes day school scholarships and food pantries Emergency aid for Israel in programs fighting anti-semitism here at home A JCF donor advice fund lets you contribute appreciated assets Take your deduction this year and direct support when it's needed most Whether that's rebuilding a community in Israel or strengthening Jewish education in New York When you give through JCF, you're investing in Jewish life To learn more about opening your fund by December 31st to lock in 2025's tax advantages Follow the link in the show notes or go to jcfny.org, the Jewish communal fund We're giving back means building the Jewish future So the ideological lines blurring, meaning that you had people who Fundamentally disagree with him Because I would argue that, say, we talked about Avidore Liebermann enough to tell you Bennett, the political constituencies they have historically represented Not maybe now, but that they have historically represented A lot of the BB world view or a lot of the voices that you're describing that felt underrepresented The voices that Liebermann and Bennett represented We're part of the constituency, we're part of those demographics And so somehow, even though their voters and their supporters are in the camp That would be sympathetic to nothing yahu being the vessel against the establishment The vessel against the elites Even they started to break with BB I don't know how it is in America, but in Israel sometimes the personal dimension matters as well So the relationship between Liebermann and Netanyahu has a personal element that we won't go into it right now But I want to prove your point in a different way Look, the main battle today in Israel is about the judiciary Okay, the right Netanyahu and the right critical of the judiciary and the center left and the anti-BB supporting Do you know who began the criticism of the judiciary in Israel? It's Hakrabin It's Hakrabin was the first one to say the judiciary has too much power And who came after that? It would all emerge in his centrist Kadima party And at that time, who was the best friend of the judiciary? Benjamin Netanyahu Who would have dinners and lunches with Aaron Barak and Dorit Benishan is mentioned in his residence It's no mentions in Israel Okay, not in the public sector So you see how absurd this thing is Because we should have all discussed the issue of the judiciary in the reasonable way Because everybody essentially there is a problem And everybody understands you don't want to destroy an independent judiciary All reasonable people But the debate over Netanyahu the battle has now you talked about the Netanyahu's ideological stand In 2014 when it will be revealed what Netanyahu was willing to give for the two-state solution In his negotiations with Dennis Ross People would be shocked and that's in Netanyahu 2014, Netanyahu 2024 wants to annex everything So you see that the whole ideological thing became a charade It's a charade Because this identity emotional obsession took over everything And again, because I'm a centrist and I have some friends on my moderate left I say to them Look what happened The obsession with Netanyahu emptied us of our values Of our convictions You don't know what the center and what the left stand for They don't talk, you know, it's simply what's the positive agenda Because it's all just obsession when Netanyahu Again, understandable to a degree justified but tragic How also then in that spirit has Netanyahu confronted the never-baby camp And actually how has he benefited from it politically I think that there again in Hebrew we say anyone but baby But the never-baby camp in my mind is the most I think there were benign goals people meant the best It was the worst political investment ever Hundreds of millions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of articles and tweets and whatever Which achieved exactly the opposite of what they wanted It didn't weaken Netanyahu, it strengthened Netanyahu It didn't moderate Israeli governments, it drove them to the extreme right It didn't strengthen democracy era Only they can never-baby movement lost seven of the last election campaigns And in the one election campaign it won when Bennett and Lapid became government The backlash was so extreme that we see the consequences So I asked my friends in the center left in Israel Isn't it time to learn the lesson? Every morning when BB wakes up in the morning And sees this obsession he says thank you so much guys You are helping me so much Because what does this do? It does three things One, it eliminates the liquid, the moderate liquid voters Because they feel that when we are obsessed with BB We are condescending regardless of them We don't respect their vote And BB is a master in manipulating Number two, he drives as I just gave you an example He drives BB to the extreme right where he didn't want to be And three, as I just said, it makes the entire discussion You know the most intelligent people in Israel so well educated Bring a very shallow argument to the table Because they are just obsessed with one person Now don't get me wrong I think Netanyahu should go I think the goal for Israel is to end Netanyahu Era with peace Not in courts but in the polls Look, I have a PhD in Netanyahu I knew his father and his most his family is close friends At a certain point I'm not interested in Netanyahu anymore I'm interested in his voters And the tragedy is that you have there hundreds of thousands Which in Israel is a lot of potential people Who can be part of building a kind of more unified Reasonable Jewish democratic national liberal Israel Who feel alienated And are now in political alliance with Bengal And smartly and the ultra-orthodox So in my mind the need is to try to reorganize Redefine the map Because the way right now it works is that The just not BB The never BB movement actually Achieved exactly the opposite of what it wanted to achieve So basically you're saying that the left in Israel But it's not really just the left anymore But let's just call it the left Or what has become the anti BB camp Which is not just the left Actually never developed a world view And a platform to present to the electorate Other than we will bring down this one person So the hope, the expectation Was that a plurality of voters would rally To the mission of taking down one politician Rather than rally to a set of ideas And a governing vision for the country BB's radical opponents in Israel are his best friends The left is unpopular, the left has 10% support It's there but there is a strong centrist And there is a strong moderate right sentiment That both reject Netanyahu But because they did not develop a vision Ideas, plans You don't know what's the positive Everything is just BB, BB, BB, BB, BB That people don't listen to us But people on the other side don't listen to us There are two issues here One, the country Always, definitely after October 7th Needs a new deal A new vision We need it And two, if you want to win in politics You have to bring love to the table Not hate, you have to bring a vision of something positive When you have a negative ethos You will lose And BB is a master in one of the reasons You know, our conversation I think is based on Several articles I published in Yudiyo Tachonot in Israel in the last two months And I was happy to see that now, unlike in the past, some people understand that Because the elections of 226 in my mind are kind of make or break elections It's a fight for Israel's soul and identity And I do think this government is catastrophic We cannot re-elect it I think the need to develop new messaging And new ideas that are constructive And positive, if you bring that You know, Netanyahu will melt in the sun in the sun Okay, he lives on this ongoing resentment Which builds his ability to play with identity politics What I say to my friends on the right I said, "What has happened to you guys? You became Berkeley." Okay, because they're all into victimhood and identity politics So ironically, I think you have some phenomena in America But in Israel it's striking The Israeli right has lost the commitment You know, to traditional conservative values It's all, or not all, it's mostly victimhood We are persecuted, we are oppressed, and it's identity politics So if, I think I said it to you one of our previous conversations I think that if liberals go back to being liberal And the conservatives go back to being conservative We can actually build a nation Which is something we must do This kind of sentiment of negative sentiment on both sides Is tearing the country apart and endangering it But you said earlier that even though BB wins His supporters feel unrepresented in his really society Unrepresented I guess in popular culture In the media, in academia, in the judiciary In government, in all these institutions How is that possible if he's been in power for most of the past 30 years? So if we would have had this conversation back in 2010 It would have been very difficult for me to explain But now, the strongest feeling of the Netanyahu voters Is there is a deep state in Israel In their mind, there is a coalition of the judiciary The attorney general, sometimes the police The military establishment and the civil service To prevent them from ruling the country I don't share that opinion, you know, make it clear But I want to, it's important to understand that sentiment There was a book published in Israel We vote time after time, we win the elections But we never really acquire power Now, the importance of the 2022 elections Was that within the right Because when begging won in 1977 He respected the judges, he respected the civil service He respected the media He was an old, fashion, decent conservative Who respected all these Now the feeling in the Likud was We had enough We were civilized for 20 years We don't have real power Now it's our time Now I think it's a very dangerous popular sentiment But this is where it is right now And the answer they will give you The answer in the Netanyahu would give you Is that they want a much stronger Parliament and government and elected bodies And to reduce the power of the unelected branches of government And this is where, I dare say, we liberals Had a very good reason to be terrified Because there is a sense almost of a popular revolution A popular uprising And the danger is that it will really destroy the Israeli democracy I mean, the attack in my mind that Israeli judiciary made many mistakes Including when Netanyahu tried But it's so dangerous to endanger the judiciary So these sentiments, if we don't stop now And think of October 7th It was such a wake-up call If we don't stop The populist rage can really burn down the institutions of liberal democracy So in my mind, the coming months is really like Almost a last opportunity to pull back And try to bring a different option to the table That on the one hand will respect the sentiments of the Netanyahu voters And understand that there are First of all, patriots and good people People should not be condescending towards them But on the other hand, convince them to stop this madness Don't go to the extreme bang-vere To scream all kinds of members of the liquid Who are now really, really risking the Israeli democracy The politics in Israel as you're laying out Are organized right now along the lines of Where you stand on Netanyahu as a political figure as a leader As a personality Do you think that structure can actually change While he's still in power Meaning is that what this next election is going to be about to Look, it's um, I had hope regarding There could have been some sort of inner peace Even with Netanyahu back in the early 2000s and 2010 And again, to an extent it worked When Netanyahu came back to power in 2009 It wasn't so extreme But things have gotten so bad now That I find it difficult And Netanyahu is surrounded by people Who are so much into this divisive poison And they have such a sense of paranoia And I'm not saying he But some of the people close him are like fighting the state So I find it difficult to hope now That there can be reconciliation with Netanyahu I'm not saying it's totally impossible But that's not my agenda That's not my message My main message is that we have to prepare Israel for the day after Netanyahu Whether it's next year or whether it's 2028 or 23 I'm not getting into it right now And in order to do that You have to redefine the map I think there's a huge or an enormous Moderate, pragmatic Zionist Israeli majority Which proved itself in the war People who work hard, fight for the country The most creative people in the world And right now this group is divided Because of the Netanyahu issue And as a result of that The center left depend on extreme leftists And the right depends on ultra-Orktharoks Not Zionists and very extremists I think that if we rebuild Israel I mean the concept I believe in is Zionist unity Let all reasonable Zionists unite And make compromises between us regarding the right center left issues In order to rebuild the republic As a republic not as a monarchy And I think that Zionist unity is crucial for Israel Immediately after the next election Zionist unity is crucial for all the relationship The alliance between us and you Between Israel and the Jewish diaspora We cannot let the ultra-Orktharoks and the extremists Drive away young American Jews and European Jews from Israel I think there is actually the optimism in me Under all this noise and poison and hate And vicious populism I see a yearning for something new And I think that the concept of Zionist unity should be there Whether we achieve it next year or a few years later Ari, we're having this conversation as I said at the introduction Against the backdrop of Netanyahu's pardon request Heighten attention around his trial The decision before Fuji Herzog the president of Israel On whether or not to grant some kind of pardon to Netanyahu How much of this trial Herzog's decision The debate about how to resolve or not resolve Netanyahu's legal problems How much of that is the crucible Through which what you're talking about here What you're laying out Many respects what you're hoping for is going to get resolved The crucible of how Israel gets through this highly polarized around one person Framework that its politics lives in And not just its politics, it's whole society lives in Look, I think the Netanyahu trial brought the climax First of all, it's like the incarnation of everything I was talking about And he brought it to a climax, okay? Because what you saw is on the one hand I don't want to get into many details But I think there are serious problems with the way the trial was carried out On the other hand, Netanyahu did the things that there was wrong doing His main sin was not the cigars in champagne His main sin was he tried to attack the judiciary once he was in trouble He totally took his personal agenda And for that, I'm very angry with him I think it's very so it brought everything for climax I think that if there is any compromise possible to end this tragedy Again, as I said, I want us to end the Netanyahu era in peace And if it goes through the courts, it won't be in peace and won't be forgotten By his people, they'll come angry So I think the grand deal should be pardoned Netanyahu But stop totally the Yerif Levine calls the judicial reform What I call the judicial revolution I mean stop, they say we will deal with the judicial issues And constitutional issues that have to be dealt with The next government will deal it in a sense of unity Looking for why the agreement, we won't agree about anything We won't do it in this hostile aggressive way So I think that if Netanyahu can be pardoned on the one hand And on the other hand, this terrible reform and revolution That his threatening is really democracy is totally stopped Then I think there is some hope Do I think, you know, I'm an optimist? I'm not optimist enough to think this is likely Look, we need to detox Israel We need to detox Israel And we have to understand that this issue has poisoned Our political life for such a long time I put most of the blame on Netanyahu But many mistakes, many mistakes were done by his opponents And it's time for everyone to stop blaming everyone else Take responsibility and move forward towards Zionist unity All right, Ari, thank you for this We'll leave it there That was a hopeful note on which to end I hope lots and lots and lots of people, especially Israelis Are hearing you're in internalizing your hope We'll see, a lot to happen over the next few weeks As Herzog contemplates his move here And then obviously a lot to follow over the next few months The lead up to the elections Where all this will be kind of playing out And I'm sure we'll be calling on you many times During all of that So I look forward to being in touch soon Thank you very much Shieto That's our show for today If you value the Call Me Back podcast And you want to support our mission Please subscribe to our weekly members-only show Inside Call Me Back Inside Call Me Back is where Nadavela meets Segal And I respond to challenging questions from listeners And have the conversations that typically occur After the cameras stop rolling To subscribe please follow the link in the show notes Or you can go to arcmedia.org That's a-r-k-media.org Call Me Back is produced and edited by Alon Benatar Arcmedia's executive producer is a Dom James Levin Aready Sound and video editing by Martin Huergo and Marianne Khalis Burgos Our director of operations, Maya Rakoff Research by Gabe Silverstein Our music was composed by Yuval Semo Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Sinor [Music]