The one with... the ex-Heads of Sustainability. On burnout, role evolution, and going fractional

We're still hopeful on where I think it's the most important thing. That's definitely how it's come across actually more than perhaps I was expecting. Well, you've got too optimistic people to say. Yeah, that's good. That was awesome. Welcome to this episode of The Future We Build. Today I'm drawing both two X heads of sustainability. Robbie Epson, formerly at CBR-E I.M. and Emily Hamilton, formerly of Savile's investment management. And obviously myself previously at the South. So this is a bit of a therapy session for the three of us. So we talk about the role of head of sustainability. What does that mean? Are the skills that we have still relevant and a message to those still in post and how they can continue the journey? We reflect upon what we're all doing now and how we're going to continue to push from the outside. And we talk about what's needed from leadership in the face of the multiple challenges and uncertainties we face going forward. It's a great session. Let's dive in. So look, thank you both to you Robbie and Emily for joining me on The Future We Build. And yeah, welcome to this episode. I'm really looking forward to this episode because the common denominator here is we're all X heads of sustainability. And that's really kind of where I wanted to start is why we're all X heads of sustainability. It all happened at some point last year. And obviously had that time to reflect on it. What it means for me launching this podcast. And it's an opportunity I suppose to speak to those in the market and those in the industry to kind of navigate and figure out what is happening. And when I was thinking about my guest list and thinking about, OK, what's the arc of the story I want in my season one? I was like, I really want to have this therapy session where I can sort of speak to those of us that were doing this role but are not anymore. So look really glad and glad that we make it together. And I thought it was great that we could get you both on together. So look, firstly, Robbie, X, CBR, I am head of sustainability for Europe and Emily, X, your chief sustainability officer for the title for me. I am. So I'll let you both introduce yourself, basically, with your current title. And then maybe also what your former role was, or former roles, what? Robbie, you give them? Yeah. So, well, Robbie, we all know each other. I was the immediate sustainability at CBR, investment management for just nearly five years. And they're consultant for two years before that. So when I was working at WSP. So I'm sitting at about 18 years or so in sustainability now. 12 is a consultant and 5 plus now is a in-house slash fractional, as I'm doing now in the industry. That's what I'm talking about. So fractional. Yeah. Lots of new words, which we're all learning over the last six months. I pivoted, and I think we're going to discuss all the market drivers that are happening. And I think it's probably a long list of what isn't happening. Sorry, that's pretty easy to discuss what isn't happening rather than the kind of what it is. Because I think it's hugely complex. And it's not just complex for sustainability. I think it's complex in general at the moment. And sustainability, thanks to all of the work of people like us, is really integrated into everything now. And so it's starting to feel the same pains as everything else. But I've pivoted into a new model. And we've launched a firm called Cartaria Partners, which is, in fact, a collaboration between three people that were doing the same thing, which is fractional work. And really that's looking at, you know, as we transition out of this place where we had full-time heads of sustainability in companies at the very senior C-suite level, and ExCo and on investment committees, all that sort of thing. How do we shift into a new world where actually that need still exists hasn't gone away. But now it's on much more of a fractional basis, i.e. interim two days a week, advising the board, sitting on one of the fun boards, sitting on as a non-executive director. So really looking at helping to bridge those gaps, capacity build, help with kind of task-oriented pieces, almost sort of guerrilla warfare tactics. It's like you're not in one place, high profile, big voice. You're in lots of places working with lots of different organizations, sort of under the radar. You're there as a fixer working on them. I know I'm least doing a similar thing as well. But it seems to be where we've pivoted to and sustainability. And I don't know what you guys will say, but if I put my hand on heart and said, what do I actually want to do going forwards, it is be able to help people that are really needing the help, but not be limited and be able to work across many different places from tech companies to investment managers to even consultancies. It's really exciting. And you kind of get to spend 100% of your time doing the stuff that really matters, rather than-- And this isn't-- this is the same in any corporation you're in, with any big fictional entity of a corporation with 10,000, 100,000 people, you have a lot of administration, a lot of discussions, decisions are very complex. Whereas in this world of fractional work, it's really exciting. You can just kind of go, I've got a problem. I can help you solve that. And you can match, mate, get together, start pretty quickly without the complex scopes of works we used to deal with. So that's where I've pivoted. As we'll discuss in a second, these things aren't always the long-- if this was never the long term plan, but the market conditions changed. And this seems to be an opportunity. And I will see where it goes in 2026. Cool. Yeah. I mean, definitely let's come back to the fractional piece. Because I think, yeah, if that's the trend, anyway, let's come back to that. Emily. So my former role, I was chief sustainability officer for Savile's Investment Management. And that was a global real estate investment management company. But I decided to make the transition, because similar to Robbie, I'd spent-- I think I'm coming up to 18 years in sustainability. 14 of those in-house and the rest operating as a consultant. And I was really starting to see that we're losing strategic foresight. And for me, that is a worry. And the reason I could see that across the market is because we're in this control mode at the moment. So real estate and other markets, they're really focused on we need to bring in capital. We need to pay our staff. We need to do all these things that are very control-focused. But where sustainability and innovation operates best is in the create mode. And that's where we were in the mid-naughties to early 2020s, but we shifted. And there's a real worry in this increasingly volatile and certain, complex and big-year world that if we are not focusing on the create and the control, we're going to be just starting to do tasks. But there's a question of are they the right tasks? And so what I'm seeking to do having left, sub-els, I am, is work more with leadership on these strategic questions. And so focus on, do you understand how nature is impacting your supply chain and your business? And so we have part of it's fractional, but the other part of it is judgment-based and more advisory. It's funny, just hearing you say that. By the way, I think 18 years, 18 years, when does it start? But it's around about 18 years as well. So we're all roughly-- and again, consultancy into in-house roles. Although your weighting is probably directly opposite our weighting, which is more consultancy. But yeah, like that. And I was just saying it just before that the nature of the-- I was thinking this, and I was trying to-- an old colleague from way back in 2007, '89. And we were literally coming up with some really innovative tools we were exploring, certainly not just carbon. It was across the whole range of things. But also to your point, it was very strategic. And often the role of the consultant, as it was, was going in at board level or going in to an investment meeting or just as almost like on a fractional basis. I've just-- this is the sort of pressure point. We're coming here to help and advise you on this particular thing, advising you on that decision. And then the company goes away, makes that decision. And exactly as you say, the transition has been, well, let's hoover up all those people and put them in post. And then with the sort of, I guess, ideology or the thinking behind what they're going to be in every meeting. They're going to help us make that decision every time. But that hasn't happened, right? I guess it's happened in some degree. But it's also, I guess, parallel. And again, we were saying this is that as markets have matured, and as particularly in the finance sector, regulations come in and investors have got more mature and the RFIs and the RFPs and the kind of whole-- how do we kind of take tabuloids this and checkbox this? Is that ability to sort of creatively try and think about, what is the problem we're trying to solve here and how do we creatively solve it? To how do we kind of tell the market, whoever that might be, that what we're doing. And that's a very different skill, sir. Definitely. Have you looked back, well, I'd say, 2017, 2018? There were loads of consultants coming in looking at what that transformation curve looked like. And what do you need to do as a business to get there? And I think we've almost become stuck in the first wave of set the goals and start the implementation. But we're not doing the next wave of what's coming down the line. How do we apply to that? What innovation programs have you got in place to prepare you? A.I. is a good point. That's one. But there's also things about how do you get more people around emotional intelligence and understanding that. And so I think there's a lot more that we should be doing as businesses than task and check and task and check. And I feel that's where we're stuck at the moment. And I was thinking about this session. Obviously I said you some points before, but I was kind of thinking, have we-- there's us and there's others. But have we outgrown the role? Or has the role outgrown us? And by that, I mean, with everything we've just said, this sort of in-house. And that's in-house really state investment manager or re- whatever, that role and the skill set that's needed. It seems to becoming much more-- execution focused within the sort of constraints as you say of that kind of box that they're going to execute rather than Yeah, perhaps what our initial skill sets all the the idea behind bringing in senior leaders was to come in and challenge and think about strategy and think about the future It's now much more and certainly the team that you know up it together at the style and in what we've what what was there now is Heavy part of it is execution technical execution Which is absolutely needed in the context of you know manage own buildings you figure that out so But it yeah, I guess for me reflecting was You know, what does that mean for the for the likes of the leaders that are trying to think about what's coming down the pipe Um, and where do we move the market and maybe to your point Robbie? It's it's less about trying to do that Within it's almost like come full circle go back out And have the opportunity to really kind of see broadly and then come back in and challenge I suppose in the right way I mean we have to acknowledge that Sustainability like any other department now in the real estate world particularly But other sectors I think I'm also struggling and have had tricky times for a whole range of factors You know you name it geopolitical issues the rise of AI Trump 2.0, you know, we can't we can't ignore that Europe swinging right SFTR 2.0 regulation and flux. There's so much uncertainty that Teams are having to battle another potentially challenging year and I think I don't know if it's the fifth year or the fourth year Probably the fifth year in a row for real estate and so they are having to look at costs And that's not just headcount that's you know the software they're using the Data you know hardware they're using on site so there's all sorts of costs and the reality is we we all succeeded You know a lot of us went in house Um, you know maybe with the exception Emily that was a big transition back in 2019 2020 where a lot of the investment managers started bringing Consultants in house to take on these sort of heads of sustainability roles And we've done great work I think particularly around this with net zero journey of actually Operationalizing that and making it a real thing where money was actually being spent on checking What we need to do doing decarbon, but it's time to implement them You know others you know like you guys at Savills were starting to make great progress in the biodiversity as well And so those we got stuff working which I think is really powerful But the reality is that Sustainability is having to now justify its place in the ecosystem of incorporation I think it's amazing actually if we really reflect back on it that through four to five challenging years Sustainability teams were largely protected Yeah, as well as the budget But now when you look at a funds budget, sustainability is a big part of the pie chart You know it's there with accountancy costs legal costs you know all those other things and so now It's having to demonstrate ROI really like a grown-up which means it's mature So I think it's exciting, but I think you know the to the point you guys are both discussing around that operational task or into role or the strategic leadership You 100% need both We're we should be proud because we got to the point where the Guide rails the methodology the process has been established where more junior people and Teams that aren't sustainable especially as can now get on with this stuff But you do still need that strategic leadership, but it is expensive and when you're in a time where it's massive uncertainty Regulations are in flux Half the world is thinking let's focus on all the other issues we're dealing with right now and maybe just get on with things We know we need to do a sustainability and not worry about the next page There's a little bit of an in-between period where it might come back or like the private equity world others It might actually evolve into this new way of Sustainability being a permanent feature on boards on committees as you know fractional leadership and it might be a slightly different way of working Um, I actually think that you know if you get things right you don't have to have someone in seat every day the year You know, there's other things like you know we You know, I've worked in many companies where things which are really specific like I don't know local government pension See things you wouldn't be worth having a full-time employed specialist in that But you have someone that you can pick up the phone to whenever you need to get some advice or get some strategic steer Same with doing financial checks for you know for suppliers and stuff you don't need to have someone full-time Whenever you've got a big risky supplier you get them on the phone you get them in you do a strategic review So maybe sustainability is evolving to be that kind of direction But the best advice I got to Emily's point when I went in house for the first time was keep being a consultant You know you are an advisor to that team in house whether it's the CIO whether it's the You know compliance team legal team you are a consultant to them and the role of a consultant You know to your point is to always stay one page ahead of the market always have an ironware things are going next And that is expensive because you've got to be a thinker that thinks differently Is constantly plugged in out there on the circuit networking hearing all the different views working out which ones Need to be taken seriously and explore further and that's the bit which I think is going through a transition I found that sorry It's gonna say but the role of a consultant is often to please their client And I think this is where we've almost started to lose that Challenging piece so the before when working in house you're meant to it was an uncomfortable role A lot of my career. I was there asking the difficult tricky questions And not always getting positive responses, you know having to go back and ask the same question before I got a yes Or show different ways of doing things And I think that is really important from a resilience perspective And I think this is what I'm slightly concerned now You've had lots of new people who have entered the industry Who need to build up that resilience to be able to keep pushing and keep saying no We do need to think about this topic and not just try and please their client which is ultimately internally the company And so I think this is something where having a as ruby was saying and a strategic partner Someone operating outside of the company You're more able to ask those difficult questions than if you're sitting inside the business because you have to balance both The emotional intelligence of being of pushing an organization But at the same time you need to be able to make sure that your team is well respected as well And often with confidence of look I'm out there in the market This is how others are doing it why I'm not taking it seriously Whereas I think when you're in house you know you tend to be part of All the various agendas that you get in a big corporation which is again is very normal things You're not just managing the tough feedback You're managing the you know houses being perceived as you know does it look like there's yeah Well, Tira emotives here and I think being independent actually adds a whole level of integrity because You know a lot of us we do this because we care we think it's the right thing to do We pivot when we see things change So I think to be able to be that independent questioning person Be able to adjust your portfolio as you feel right I think it's very powerful It's a really interesting point isn't it because like you know again sort of looking back There was an era where You know wasn't asked because we weren't I guess at that stage But you know perhaps our predecessors they were in challenging the boards challenging You know the management of these companies and they were asking those difficult questions And that's perhaps where we saw some of this creativity in progress And then as you say when bringing that in house there's a sort of assumption Oh, we'll we'll have that in house But like you say when you're an employee of a company you get wrapped in everything gets wrapped around you as well There's like we can say this we can't say that You know these are our client types, you know And also the power politics of like who you're reporting to and all that stuff Means that you know when you're in a big boardroom or any really any kind of meeting You've you immediately just have that weight of like well, what how do I play this and like What do I want to say versus what do I know that's going to get through Whereas when you're an outsider or you're an external or you can just come and go look guys stop messing about That's what you need to do And that's just much much easier position to be and I think in a way And I don't know as a good question to perhaps the you know the c-suite of the firms that we've left Have have did they find that they they lost that sort of challenger You know when there was this sort of influx of you know senior people coming in house Did they lose that sort of challenger? You know around the room because ultimately we all sort of became a little bit normalized too You know what what the business I don't know be curious curious to kind of figure out if that actually is I think I mean Yeah, there are still a lot of people in in house in all these in all these organizations You know not just at the uh junior but there's still remains senior people as well I think there's definitely been a Lot of talent um across real asset space mostly real estate. We're honest, you know infrastructure funds Well less effective because infrastructure has been booming every you know every time Collaborating on working with infrastructure. You know from You know chatting to you know ex colleagues in that space That they are inundated with new funds and positive stuff because of the benefits of things like renewable energy wind Transport digital into you know infrastructure etc. So there's they've been as fed up in real estate It there's been a churn and they've lost a lot of You know whether it's upper middle or at the top that kind of I'd say 15 to 20 years plus experience And they've retained a lot of and a lot of the new job adverts if you look at things like LinkedIn are all Had the word operational now in the title. You know head of sustainable operations Sustainable value. It's all stuff like that which is that task orientated Wanting to really get on with it either reporting But a lot of it's still I think you know working through the decarboard. It's because there's a lot of work to do on that For people that's working the as managers to really get this stuff done So I think it's good work What some of them will probably start to find as a bit of a gap is you know where it had evolved and you know quite a few of the Messing managers. I think had done this that sort of executive seat and things like investment committees Um because even if you've got you know a single global person in an organization It's very hard for them to be in every single committee. Yeah, so having a sort of team that was you know below that or a team Where those several at the top allowed you to be in risk committees and investment committees things out So I think that's probably the biggest risk. Are they feeling it? I don't think they probably will at the moment because I think the world is distracted right now Now, you know, SFDR still, you know, you've got all these regulations and flux. You've got this whole, you know, EU omnibus had a grenade thrown it from, you know, right wing politicians in Europe. There's all sorts of things like that happening where we're kind of back to the days of, well why don't we just wait and see how this settles down? Half of the US is split, half really wants to do stuff. The other doesn't. You've got Trump 2.0, back out the Paris agreement. There's, everyone's just in this sort of, almost in between bed it came. I like just going, let's just take a breath. Get on with the stuff we know we need to do. Like decarbing makes sense. I think even those that have a issue with net zero get the electrification, et cetera, is good for assets, particularly in Europe. And so I think they're kind of like, that's, you know, and I think this is what's probably called something green hushing. Let's just keep our heads down a bit. Get on with stuff, not make too much noise and just wait for this period to pass. But that's a bit that worries me is that we're in this. Let's keep our heads down and let's not make too much noise. If we go back to 2008 when the climate act was set, no one knew how we were going to get there. But they still did it. These days it's all about, you must have a plan, you must achieve your plan. ROI, I think ROI is completely the wrong metric. But Ray, we can talk about that later. And it's, we've lost that sense of, let's try and innovate together. It's now, we need to know exactly what we're going to do each year in order to do it. I think that's a dangerous place because we are not in that world. We're in a world that is volatile, is uncertain. And we need to be able to be much more nimble. So for me, I think we need to go back to what is it that we want to achieve? How are we going to get there? Have some clear milestones. But be aware that we don't know all the answers. It's leadership. Leadership. So net zero audits is a great example. We didn't have those, did we? In 2018. We have now created them. That's a good question, because when we all kind of probably came into post around, you know, end of 2018, I suppose, in 2022, there's a lot of net zero targets being set, like 2050. So I'm a bit sooner. But as you say, probably most of them were set because, well, everyone else is setting them. And Paris has just been signed. And we better set one. And our clients are expecting others. Did anyone genuinely understand how they were going to get there? No. And they definitely didn't know the cost of getting there. But they set them anyway. So I think that leadership-- well, not leadership, perhaps, but there was a lot of peer pressure. Yes. And I wonder-- something I've thought about is there was that ambition. I think now that we've gone forward for four years, we've had the audits. We've had the technical people go out. We've had to spend the money on figuring out, OK, what's is actually going to cost? And how are we actually going to do this? Because this is really hard. And so there's all my-- which is back to your point-- is like, OK, if we're actually going to see this through, we need to actually properly figure out how we're going to do this sequentially, along the cycles of the market. And it becomes very technical. And if you've got to empower your asset management team and all of that. So there was an element, I think, of just, we're going to aim for something. But to your point, as well, I think, with everything else that's going on in the world, there seems a real reluctance to do that with anything else. Like, we set that target. And now we need to sort of try and deliver that quietly. But there's a whole host of other big challenges and issues and things that we need to do. But there doesn't seem to be that ambition-- the same level of ambition and noise and co-illition of the willing, is it were to say, we're also going to aim for this. And I was thinking about this. I think about this a lot, actually, is even just in the context of Europe, who is really demonstrating leadership by doing that, by going, this is what we want to aim for within the broad, I guess, built environment sector. And I guess that's what, in some ways, that's what we need. We need people to sort of show the way. And it's difficult when you've got all these other constraints and challenges and things that we know that-- But OK, it's quite hard when you're in an organization in the senior position, shareholders, the works. It's quite difficult to really put your head about the parapet in a way that moves you in a very drastically different place, not because it's always a bad negative thing to do, but just any change that space can create uncertainty and hesitation and risk of that sort of stuff. So another way, I think this is actually quite a good thing for actually, is that we have the ability to actually help that have those brave conversations be a bit more candid. But I think we also have to respect, I think, on the whole, yes, obviously, things could have been better, faster, et cetera. But I was blown away by the change over the last five or so years in the investment management model. We were talking about net zero and all this. No, we've felt our way through-- yes, FSDR was a bit of a distraction, but I think a lot of us still leverage it in a way to get changed moving. And there was some amazing stuff I could never have believed five years ago we would have achieved. And we did that because, in large part, a lot of these investment managers actually moved past the Y quite quickly and started to move into, like, how do we actually do this? So I think there's a lot to be said for where we've been so far. Where are we going next? I'm agreeing with Emily, but also that I can see both sides. I think sustainability now is an adult in the room. And it does need to prove that this isn't all just because we think it's the right thing to do. This is also fundamentally the right thing to do from a business perspective. But you have to also have purpose. Because without purpose, you don't solve complex problems. No one knew the answer to solving the issues of bacterial infections. And no one knows where AI is. But we have to imagine all these futures in our head of where it could go. And are we happy with that? OK, well, how about we try this? And if you don't do that, you don't invent solutions. You don't navigate through complexity. So I think having all these things is powerful. Like net zero, yes, the words become toxic. The politicians have got to hold it. I actually see that as a positive. If politicians, I've got a whole net zero, we've done something right. It's on the radar. But the reality is, I don't understand why that isn't just an absolute no brain. Because for me, as an engineer, as someone who's brain lives in the future, it's just a business fundamental that fossil fuels are a finite resource that are trending in only one direction. Factually, they're going to run out at some point, which means before that, they're going to get expensive. And there's going to be geopolitical issues. Why would you design any business or building where that is in your future? So that, to me, is the issue we're trying to solve. And maybe it's now on us in this new world to start going, well, whatever you want to call it, that's the problem we're trying to solve. And then obviously all the other ones, adaptation by diversity. But in terms of net zero, that's the simple piece of it. It's amazing that that simple message gets complicated. I think it is an important message that net zero apes. But I'd also point to the fact that the UK published, deaf, published, the Department of Energy, food, oil and food and affairs, published a document that basically said, "Nature is now a strategic national security risk and not addressing nature." It was kind of done under the radar. It was done. It's 14 pages. I highly recommend reading it. It's a good read. I'll put it there. It's all so nice to look. And to me, this is worrying. We're focusing on net zero. We're saying, "All climate adaptation and biodiversity can come later." And we can't. We've got to see how we link all those back together. And I think that's what sustainability does really powerfully is being able to make those connections across teams, across departments, across sectors to be able to say, "Right, how are we going to tackle this together?" And I agree with you, Robby. I think we've achieved some incredible things the last five years if you look at where we are. When I first joined, we were having debates about whether it was environmental and social governance and how you structured it in a paper. Now it's just included and very detailed net zero audits. So I, and to extend, you know, focusing on biodiversity and other things. But there is that disconnection. And I think our sector needs to try and spend some time on picking that and asking why. And looking at how do we get that conversation about biodiversity and nature in the room? Because for real estate, it's going to have a fundamental impact water. Land, supply chains, all these different things. And then you put climate adaptation over the top of it. And suddenly you're in a very different scenario that even if your building gets to net zero, if you haven't addressed climate resilience, the starting point your building's going to be stranded. And this is what I'm worried about. Or massive cat books risks. Yes. It's amazing, isn't it? Because when you actually think about all of that and break it down, you know, I've written part of the joy of portfolio company I have time to do things that I've written and hope you'll come out in the next couple of months, a couple of chapters with two different books. And I have some real time to distill my thoughts. And what I've realized, you know, put it on things like Yvl Harari from, you know, Sapiens, I think he talks about this in Nexus as well. You know, how he talks about the fiction of corporate entities. Like the ultimate fiction of funds. When you actually think about what a fund is, it is literally a story that you're telling investors and then you're turning that story into a contractual mechanism. And the amazing thing is that finance is also a fiction. And yet the whole world of finance is driven by the fiction of the financial entities, the funds, the various mechanisms that you can transact on and the fiction of the finances. And actually the only thing that really matters, you know, to Emily's point is, can you actually get the water, the energy, the waste out of your asset? These are the real world valuable things where you can almost, you know, technically, obviously you can't in the real world. You could click a bus on a computer screen and delete a dead. You can't just magic up water if you run out of water. So the real thing that carries value, you in all of these systems is the stuff that's real. Kill what hours, meet us, cube of water, is the water clean? Can your building survive physical climate changes? If you get that wrong, nothing else sort of matters. Not matter. But for some reason, that piece of the accounting picture and that piece of the strategic decision making, long-term planning has always been out of the picture. It's starting to come in and I genuinely think, I feel hopeful that actually the fossil fuel piece, people understand that now that actually we are trending towards energy as a service where the analogy I use is going to be like broadband, right? You know, no one really pays for data on the sort of megabyte anymore. You pay for maybe 20, 30, quite a month and you get unlimited data and you pay effectively for the infrastructure and your router. Energy will be there one day. It'll be your pay. If monthly fee will be fixed, your car, your house, your heating will all be whether it's on the site or procured, will just be for a set small fee to contribute to all the even stick it through the council tax. Who knows? But it will be free and that will dramatically change everything and when you start thinking for that way, it becomes really exciting, it becomes real world. Yeah, I mean, it has to pay into getting there. Yeah, but it is possible. You both know, I actually fit it in my home. So I'm basically sitting in an energy positive position. I pay bills for the first few months of the year. Nothing really for the rest. And so it is possible. I think this return on investment piece is what bothers me because when you talk about we need to get return on investment. That places what are basically structural improvements like when you put solar panels on, you're not just helping your home, you're helping other homes because you're selling back to the grid. There are almost wider than asset benefits that we're not able to account for yet when we do this whole valuation. So when we're saying, oh, we need to have 10 years to get the return on investment, we're only counting what's in the building itself, not on what that building is necessarily doing to the wider area. And if you've got a huge development, like a logistics one, doing those retrofit upgrades could actually catalyze regeneration for the wider area. And I think this is what I struggle with is we haven't quite figured out how do we take in that wider benefit that the sustainability, if you put it in inverted commas, that's doing. And we're going to have to factor that into the valuation because if you just do it on a single asset, we're always going to have this struggle to prove the return on investment. Yeah, it's an interesting point. So yeah, let's go with that. So I guess, yeah, do you have any sort of parting wisdom for those of our colleagues, friends and others that are still in these roles, still in house, still fighting the good fight, with everything that's coming, with all the change that you're seeing, what would you say to them? For me, I would say a first and foremost, listen, really listen to what your colleagues are saying are their challenges because I think once we start to listen and understand what they're trying to work towards, it's easier to then help co-create solutions, whereas if we're coming at it with, we think we've got the answer, actually that might not work in the particular fund for a particular circumstance. So I think listen and really understand what the problem is, is fundamental as a starting point. Shall I say it? I think, I mean, look, all these things are cyclical. None of us are that old that we've been through multiple cycles, but I think there are cycles. And I have no doubt that the drivers in the market that will cause both opportunities and challenges for major corporates, not just in the finance world, more widely, will come back and there'll be another whole, oh my god, we've got to upskill, grow teams and stuff. But sustainability is not going away for all the points we've both made. It's, these are the fundamentals of how we all continue to exist as a species into the future, the businesses continue to survive, but not just survive, hopefully thrive, in good ways, where it's all the things are better, social, biodiversity, clean air. I was having a great discussion over lunch with someone and it's mad that our politicians don't get this, right? But I would be willing to bet that if you've got a room of people, you know, a room of people together from across the political spectrum, we all want exactly the same thing. The only thing that changes, you know, not just sustainability, clean air, clean water, et cetera, but good healthcare, top schooling, everyone wants the same thing. The only bit we differ on is how we get that. And I think that's the bit where who provides it. Exactly. So I think sustainability is going to keep on. I think we're all busy and I think we've found that, you know, already people are trying to reach out. It's a recalibration for those who have done consultancy before. This is very different because I think consultants have their own challenges with the way artificial intelligence is taking on some of the sort of middle and more junior tasks. So it's evolving. But I would say, in my view, people that have really had the ability to change the world have been on this outside fractional sort of journey of doing and charting their own course because I think it gives you the most important thing, which is that flexibility where if you come to work like today, I'm meeting all sorts of people who knows where these conversations are going to take me. And if I see someone like that doors a jar and I genuinely think like I got invited to two things which probably won't be paid, but I think I'm going to be massively impactful. And I get to be there and be part of that, part of shaping it because I'm fractional and able to be flexible. Flexibility is that. So I think it's quite powerful. And I think the key message is it hasn't gone away. All these people who are in house still junior and senior levels have got a huge important job to do. They've got to keep doing it. Who knows where next year is going to go, but they should work with us, I think we should be complementary to each other. So that's the message. Come on. One more. Come on. Come on talk to us. Yes. Protect your energy as well. Well. I think that's really important at this moment in time. Do you know what? How many articles? I mean, look, it's not hiding anything, right? You just have to look at LinkedIn for a couple of days and realise how many sustainability. People with sustainability in their job title are also have that green thing on their picture, which says looking for work, right? There's a lot of people in a lot of sectors that have now been let go or are looking for work. And I read so much about the mental health side of it, both of those that have are still there or have been there and have effectively burned out. And those that are still in post that are dealing with all these issues and how do we operate a two speeds effectively satisfying the boss whilst also thinking long term. And as we know, there's just problems just become bigger and bigger and bigger and we've all been there. So the mental load is exhausting and like you said earlier, staying ahead of it. So I've got to stay ahead of it and I've got to satisfy them now. And there's another issue coming down the pipe and I've got to be an expert and I've got to speak at this thing. It is just exhausting. And I know, we all know people I know, but who sort of got to that point where I just can't do this anymore. And I've really kind of now I'm probably looking out and looking in and I've used LinkedIn as a bit of a brawmer to, it's an incredible amount of people and there's therapists that are emerging to really help us. And so yeah, it's really interesting, kind of seeing it with a fresh pair of eyes, I guess. It's a good one, it's not. For me, sustainability and impact you're going to bring starts with your own self awareness and you can't deliver change unless you are willing to be part of that change. And I think protecting your energy is really important. And you can't if you were tired. Exactly. Alex, you and I were talking before we started, you know, I started personal training and just getting back into healthier habits and things like that. I think for too long kind of undervalued how important it is to the customer. You're in a corporate job and you find it difficult to do that? Yeah. Whereas you have to sort of go on your own and go to work. Exactly. You can go to the gym. Exactly. Oh no, there's something not right there. There's three hours a day I've taken back from not travelling in. Suddenly you can do amazing things with them, you know, taking much better dog walks. And I think all of that is really important. Hopefully that's where people are listening. Yeah. Some people are listening anyway, he's walking the dog. Well, she was a big reason why I left was because I wanted to spend more time with my dog. There you go. But the challenge we have is it is more than just a job isn't it? Yeah. Like we, you know, like you've done with your house. You know, which means you, you know, you do take things more personally if they are, if they're not progressing and you do think about it outside of work because it is your thing, isn't it? We want to change this. You can switch it on and off. No. And for me, it's my team as well. I love my team and I say they still still feel quite protective even though I've left because we built something really spectacular. And so I think that's why it's important to protect your energy because when you're at your best self, everyone else around you can be at their best self. That's the one thing clearly, what the biggest thing that I miss is just that. Yeah. They're like minded people and trying to kind of lead a team within that sort of environment, but you're almost like, you know, trying to protect you as a team to sort of navigate through this sort of challenging. Which none of us really knew existed before because it is a bit different from the old Consonzi model than AI is definitely famous. We're all starting to work together in collaboration which to me is an incredible knowledge for, right? You think all those things we've all learned across all these organisations, our consulting days, our experience in house, now starting to work together in a collaborative way. And we can because we're now effectively peers and then you sort of open source where it works. I think there's exciting stuff to come. So it's terrifying, but it's quite scary sometimes. Yeah, I've been bad days where you have just terrified versus optimistic depending on which day of this week is. That's where you achieve great things, isn't it? When you're outside your comfort zone. Yeah, that's right. So, yeah, it's a genuinely thing that it's, you know, so stay at this, we kind of almost chartered a path which was laid out for us in the sense that we did our training these jobs were created, but this is to see all these sustainable people now charting a course which they think is right. Because it's now not to us. I think it's really exciting and it's, yes, the market has created conditions that have meant some of us have had to, others have seen it's an opportunity, there's all sorts of things, but it's, you know, high risk high reward, and you know, I view people that have changed history, collaborators, it all comes down to, you know, collaborating. I mean, look, certainly one of the things I take away is that I, I can now pick and pick and choose, that sounds like I'm not, I'm telling people away, but I, I purposely go to the companies that I want to work with, go to the people that I want to work with, you know, I think you're doing something interesting, I think I can help you, you know, let's have a conversation. But that really matters because you're so refreshing. Yeah, you can buy in, it's so refreshing, it's values driven, if you combine your skill set and it's integrity, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, the hope is, it's given the kind of characters we all are in this world, if we're working with someone, you know, people are thinking, wow, they, if they're working with them, there must be something worth looking at that because we've obviously looked at that and gone, I think I can add value, I think that's got a good direction to travel, and I think that's really powerful, you're able to help lots of people in very specific ways, but who knows where things are going, I think the main, the theme is unpredictability, isn't it? I mean, that's the, that seems to be the theme, maybe it's the theme for fair and narrow, right? It's kind of scary. Right, last question, which I ask all my guests, if you, it's a bit of a sort of gimmicky question, but, um, there with me, if you could get one thing done by government, business, or an individual, or both, all three, what would it be? I don't know, he wants to go first, but yeah, if you can think of something that you would love the government to do, love businesses to do differently, or call out to the listeners individually, what would be the one thing you've got? I mean, mine's a, mine's a, mine's a boring one, but I think, boring because I think it's just so fixable, like it's just like, it just takes someone in the leadership position in government just to go, we're going to do this, and it is, you know, if you look at certain, there are certain models where you can invest as an individual in renewables industrial scale, and from doing that personally, it costs, um, for, you know, for typical two-bed to three-bed house, probably two to four grand for the rest of your life in terms of paying for some off-site solar wind. The ripple model. The ripple type model, and I just love that because it just gives you an actual idea of that energy is a service model of what it costs to actually invest in the capex when it's at scale and the maintenance, and for someone in government just to go, we're going to just do this, we're going to give every single person in this country a couple of grand and put it into a model like that, and you could literally, for a couple of grand ahead, probably make us an energy sovereign country overnight, decouple wholesale gas from the electricity grid completely, and not only with that sole sustainability issues, I genuinely think you would solve so many of other issues as well around the inflation, living costs, everything. People would have more disposable money, etc, etc. I just think that would be one of the most powerful things, and I know it's complicated, I know it's pie in the sky, but that as a silver bullet, we have the technology, we know that's the answer. Yeah, I mean, it's something I've just, I did the ripple thing probably four years ago, unfortunately, they went bust. They did, but the project survived, and it's now a co-op, and I mean, effectively an investor into that project. And I love that because that's empowering the people to crowdfund our energy in a decentralized way. I absolutely love it, and I think that if the government could support every single person in our country to become a co-owner in our grid, I think it's awesome. I love that. Yeah, Emily, what's yours? I think it would be to quadruple at least the amount of investment that we're putting into nature-based solutions, because everything starts with a healthy planet. We're not going to have strong communities, or a strong economy, unless we've got ourselves in a healthy system. At the moment, we're in a really unhealthy system. It's a mixture. I think it needs both public and private, and I actually don't think government can just do one thing. I think government need to work with the private sector much more closely on this. But I remember being flabbergasted when I saw that 500 million was being touted as a fantastic number that was being put in from government for nature-based solutions. I thought, "Whoa, if just one fund raises that in the real estate sector, that's job done for the government." I think the ambition on what we need to do for nature-based solutions just needs to be catastrophically bigger than it currently is. Which comes back to your point, which I know your personal journey is like, I mean, for the government less so, but I think for business, it's like, "Okay, how do I justify that?" Where's the aura there? Where's the aura? How do we avoid that being the blocker? How do we provide the business community with that incentive? Which I know is obviously what you're now going to be sort of channeling your energy towards. So look forward to you. Thanks for trying so hard. I'm just convincing all of us in convincing business. I don't know about you guys, but the first half of my career was awful from a sustainability perspective, because you were in that mode of, you know, exactly. The door wasn't open, you were convincing, and so I'm just almost so grateful to have had like five to eight years where people were keen for our health. And I don't think we've left that. I just think it's going through an evolution, and you know, but the whole world is. And sustainability is just as one of those. It's another thing in the room. I mean, what you were saying earlier, actually, it's funny. I was, I mean, obviously, AI, you can't escape listening to it, hearing it, whatever. But I wonder whether or not, say that, that's the wrong point, the wrong sort of word, but, you know, with obviously the growth of AI and obviously the physical manifestation of AI being data centers, that's now their limiting factor. And so you've got these four or five six seven companies, particularly in the US, driving 40% of the S&P. That's pretty much the only way that the S&P is growing. I think I've read something the other day, and if it's like take those seven companies out, you know, GDP in America, grew by 0.01% with those seven companies, it's like three and a half percent. So they have to, that just will be like, we just need to keep pushing that. So the constraint is data centers, which is real estate, and that's energy, and that's water, basically, which is, and the minerals that go into that. And so in a funny sort of way, we're now seeing, you know, there's good things about and bad things about AI, but we're sort of almost seeing that that industry is almost exposing in a way the fragility of the supply chain to real estate, which is what we're also talking about. But we've never had this sort of nexus point before where the supply, the supply, becomes so constrained, and actually with the sort of growth of AI and the speed at which they want to move, that's all become really like evidence like, these are natural resources, and you just can't get them out the ground quick enough, you can't move them quick enough, you can't produce, you know, so it's been really interesting to see kind of what the fallout of that is. And we're already, I guess, seeing a sort of move towards like energy sovereignty and obviously the mere supply, nuclear and things like that, just try and get away from it, but it is interesting, like that's perhaps where I don't know, it'll be interesting how it comes out and whether it does, but whether or not that does sort of help in some way elevate in a way that's sort of water issue, that minerals issue, you know, the waste issue, the circularity issue is like, I hope it does. We can't move this market quick enough without that. So yeah. I think it's a social impact side for me with 100%, yeah. The particular data centers because these massive companies do not have to go through the same rigorous processes, do they? They just almost go in and say, I want that. I want that. And you try and negotiate, you don't have to get very far. So they tend to position them in places where there's not a huge amount of people. So there's some that are on edge of towns, which are often in places where people aren't as wealthy as well. Yeah, exactly. And I think that is a real worry as that you start to put in all this infrastructure, places of people who may not have the time or energy to not that many of them and they haven't got the financial means to fight it. Yeah. Yeah. So. All right. Thank you. Have a bit of tour to close. Thank you very much. That's it for this week's episode of The Future We Build. I want to thank you so much for listening to us wherever you are. If you're navigating these same challenges from pricing in climate risk, decarbonising buildings, or if you're scaling a new product or solution, join us on LinkedIn. Search for me, Alex Ed's, or follow our official page at The Future We Build. That's where we break down these episodes further, discuss the topics and discussions and connect you to the leaders engaged in this mission. This show and the guest sign by will be influenced by the conversations we have on LinkedIn. So if you have ideas or would like to hear the thoughts of an industry leader, let me know and I look forward to continuing the conversation with you there. You can find the show notes and full transcripts on our website. And if you found today's session valuable, please hit subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you find your podcast. Thank you for listening. I'm Alex Ed's and I'll see you next time.