The one with Diageo CMO, Cristina Diezhandino, about what CEOs need to know about organizing to meet and lead marketplace evolutions, managing investment across a massive brand portfolio, and what can get in the way of marketing delivering against its growth mission.

How Marketing Approaches Have Evolved Over Time I'm going to ask you a question that it curse me. I haven't asked anybody across any of these shows yet. I'm wondering, you know, you have such an illustrious career. What, if anything, has changed about your approach to marketing over time? Speaker 2 That's a very good question, Seth. Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm kind of bummed I didn't ask it to anybody before, but you know, you're you're the 1st. Speaker 2 Look, I think we all reflect, I do reflect on the changes that are happening very fast, even faster every single day. And I think in the in the approach to marketing that is very present in my mind. How do we take this function further? How do we future proof our business? How do we make sure that our brands continue to be iconic aspiration? Speaker 1 But is is that a a change from 10 years ago for you? Speaker 2 I guess the speed is different, OK, And the fundamentals haven't changed. The fun at the heart of what we're trying to do, essentially, is the same thing in that our brands need to conquer the hearts and minds of people so that they choose them in whatever yeah, formats they do. But the how and the environment and the technology that we now have at our disposal has changed enormously. Speaker 1 I want to, I want to stick a pin in that because that's actually going to be where we get next. But I want to dive a little deeper into kind of approach and, and not to push to see if there's been an evolution. But when when you began your career, did you have some hypotheses about, you know, the role and value of brand, the place of marketing, even when you know, you're like a year or two into this journey that the hold up or that you're like, I was so naive, you know, what did I know? The Critical Role of Business Mindset for CMOs I think both things are true. On the one hand, my I started my career in Unilever and I was trained to think of brand marketing and brand building as drivers of business performance. So I, the brand manager is the general manager of the brand that served, served me really well, has served me really well throughout my career because in many ways a part of the success of ACMO is to play an important role, an active role and a leading role in the C-Suite and often times engaging with boards of companies and some external stakeholders. So I think that business mindsets, which I learned very early on is still critical today and you could argue often times even more critical. Why am I saying that? Because sometimes you encounter stakeholders that are decision makers who are not necessarily knowledgeable about marketing and the specificities of marketing. And for that reason, being able to have the the ability to communicate in terms that people relate to and understand that are very business centric is very useful. Speaker 1 Why do you think thinking broadly, right. And this show is, is is always, you know, we paint with a broad brush here. Why do you think so few CM OS? And that's my observation. Yours may be different. I actually understand that they are commercial leaders first, business leaders 1st and marketers second. I do find that one of the biggest challenges marketing has is that too few understand their job is to move the business forward. Do you agree with the observation? Speaker 2 I have seen both. I have seen both. And I think part of it could be certainly in today's world and you were asking me about what's changed because the environment is changing so much and the technology around us is changing so much. There is a real dedication that is required to adapt to these changes. And if you think about creating content today, how it was done back in the day and how it needs to be done today, well. Speaker 1 I mean, I think that's quite different. Yeah, for sure. But back in the day, content was just a 32nd ad. There was. Speaker 2 Pretty much. And a few doors, etcetera. Yeah. And look at the amount of content versions that you need today to be portrayed in a certain way across multiple attachments. And I think that requires a degree of specialization and we hire for specialists in these areas. Certainly in my world, the world of culture is so critical. It's always been critical because our brands live in the space of socializing and socializing. It happens out in the world. So that expertise is necessary. And oftentimes you'll find specialists that come into a business from an angle that is very specific and specifically in the world of creative and communication. I think that's line of action, which is so useful and so valuable, it's harder to translate into the business. And so some do, others don't. Now companies like the Agile for example, have training and programs, etcetera that enable for people to move on if you want to. But I think we also must value that specialist session and those specialists contribute greatly. So I think, I think I believe in diversity, OK, of capabilities and I think creating teams that contribute in those different ways and someone some will have that spike on that business angle and others less so, but they will have a spike more on those other aspects. Speaker 1 Of that I. Speaker 2 Think it's really helpful. Defining and Evaluating Enduring Big Ideas Through Visuals I I mean no, no doubt, and actually in in bringing up training was Unilever where you started your career. Yes, what, what, what like all all these moments later, what are some of the things you learned in those first days years that you know you're like invaluable? And this is how a marketer should be trained. Speaker 2 Simple concepts, but they were really great. I mean, back in the day, I think I spent the first two years doing a ton of training on anything that you can imagine. So what is a big idea? How do you judge advertising etcetera and in our world today in Diageo, we have a program is called the Diageo way of brand building. Those concepts exist and the biggest effort for us now is in making sure that we adapt and we adopt what is new and how do we make sure that those new adoptions are. Speaker 1 Let's go off on a couple of the tangents you just surfaced because they're really interesting. What, what should ACEO know? Not your CEO, but every CEO about what a big idea is and how to judge. Let's not make it about advertising, but let's make it about creative. How to judge work What, what should what did you learn about what a big idea is? How do you define what a big idea is and does that every CEO should know? Speaker 2 If I think about specifically right, the idea of a of a big idea, I suppose it's simple. It touches some form of human truth, and for that reason it is enduring it's. Speaker 1 Human truth so. Speaker 2 Absolutely, yeah. And when I look at some of our brands today that totally comply with that definition in terms of what is at its heart, it's absolutely true. Think about Johnnie Walker, right? You know, this is a brand that from the moment it was conceived all those years ago, had some form of concept of progress at the heart because this is post rationalization. I'm sure the founder didn't think about it this way, but we do. Speaker 1 I think it's a safe bet, yes. Speaker 2 But then we've really taking on that concept and taking it forward. And I think this is my point around endurance of ideas, because for ideas to endure, they also need to evolve to some degree. Speaker 1 Right. For sure. And what then going back to something else you said, how, how, how do you think? And let's not even make it about CEO. How should anyone judge good work? Like do you do you here for different brands or differently at Unilever? Or just think, you know, if you were to take another job with Acme widget company tomorrow, would you have kind of a framework for criteria for what? How to judge great content to determine if it's good grader needs to be thrown away? Speaker 2 Certainly we do, and the way less less the. Speaker 1 We more than you, the you like you take a new job. What do you go in? No for real, like you take a new job. What do you go in thinking like, you know, what's, what's your framework for saying this is what I'm bringing from my career to this new moment? Speaker 2 I look for authenticity. I look for the truth, what is at the heart, and then how it is expressed and whether that expression really takes that idea and makes it bigger. If I think about, you know, not to be in my kind of current branch, but in general, I think you will find that that is the case. Every phenomenal idea is produced by really driving what is at the heart, what is at the core of that concept of that proposition. And that it because it is expressed in such a powerful way, which is generally very simple, you can see how it can't go beyond what was originally conceived. Speaker 1 How do you know when it's expressed powerfully and in a way that that transcends the room in which it's being evaluated and and places it in the context of the lives in which it'll be received? Speaker 2 There's something about emotionality, emotional connection for me that I've seen consistently. This is this is what makes it resonate. And when that emotional connection is really connected to the truth of the branch, so it's not external, it actually touches the internal proposition of that brand or that product. It, it generally is enduring and there's a left field and the right field side of, of, of this evaluation. Like you can't think about how it's constructed or you can think about the number of words that is being used on. You can look at more and more visual expression of it. So I'll give you an example. We have certainly a few words that capture that idea, but also more and more we look to the expression of that brand idea into brand worlds. And they're very visual today, perhaps even more so than I would argue that back in the day. And that is because you now have to recognize whether that concept can be visualized very rapidly in environments that have very little language. Sometimes there's no voice. And we were talking about back in the day and the world of the 30 seconds, the concept, what is a good idea may be the same, but how do you judge that that idea is going to live widely and resonate? And I think that's why for me, perhaps if I were to give you a kind of a recognition or a reflection, is the value of a visual expression. Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, look, I think you bring up a wildly important point, which is, you know, forever a pictures been worth 1000 words. In today's world, it's worth far more than that, right? And, and because of a combination of factors, not just the, you know, the, the launch of Instagram, the pop, you know, TikTok, the clutter of content, noise options that are asking for our attention. We, we have, you know, emojis. We communicate like full thoughts and an emoji. How, how, how do you translate? How do you look at translating enduring truths into I don't want to. It doesn't even have to be enduring. It could just be relevant for a moment. But how, how do you look at that adaptation to that new reality, this new very visual reality? Or is it just a channel specific approach? Strategically Managing a Massive Global Brand Portfolio No, I think there is a real visual world and it's actually in my opinion really critical that that is well thought through. Really we take a lot of care. I take a lot of care in making sure that that is the case because if you think about it, in this fast changing world, multiple touch points for every, for every consumer, every day. And in our world, my world, these are global brands. They exist in multiple geographies with multiple cultural realities. So for these brands to be iconic, I need to make sure that wherever you go, whichever, wherever you encounter, you experience this brand. It's communicating to you in a way that is consistent, that you get the value, the expression of the brand in language, visual language, verbal language that gives you that, that has that thread that says this is who I am. Speaker 1 I want let's let's this was going to be my third question. Now it's going to I don't even know I should stop keeping track because we will go off on tangents as we have you, you just talked about something that I want to get into, which is you have AI don't know how many brands are in your current portfolio. It's. Speaker 2 Like more than 150. Speaker 1 Yeah, it's an enormous portfolio and you just use the phrase, you know, they exist in multiple cultural realities. So I've got 2 questions and we'll go one by one. But how, how, what is, what is your approach to managing a huge portfolio of brands, right? And you know, how are you deciding where to invest and not? And then the follow up is based on, on your note about how they exist in multiple cultural realities. How do you ensure that when I'm in London, as we are right now and I see, you know, pick your Johnny, right? I see creative for Johnny. I see work for Johnny. I see I have a Johnny experience that when I'm in Nigeria or or Singapore, there's that consistency given that they exist in multiple cultural realities. But I won't I won't make you remember all the questions. Let's start with how do you manage a huge portfolio of brands around. Speaker 2 The world that is a science and an art, I'd say. Speaker 1 What's the balance between it? Speaker 2 We've put, we've really put a ton of science into it. For example, we developed it we call the consumer choice framework, right, which essentially looks to evaluate what is the size of the occasions and motivations of consumers in regards to their social life around the world and we back at them into different segments to sets. The end point of that is to make sure that we display our portfolio in each market in a way that maximizes our opportunity to satisfy those motivations. That said, then we also have big priorities of global brands around the world. So Johnny Walker or Guinness or Smirnoff or Don Julio are big global brands for us, which we want to pursue globally. Why is that? It's because they're playing categories where all our data sets say are going to continue to grow in the future or we have an active play to make them grow in the future. I'll give you the example of tequila. Tequila is big in North America, is also big in Mexico, in rest of the world not so big yet. However, we have an understanding of trends that tells us the that the underlying drivers that caused that growth in certain parts of the world is happening elsewhere or is likely to happen elsewhere. And for that reason, we want to lead that trend and we're going to play our brands in those locations, even though for now they're still relatively small. And we will have a combination of brands that are growing fast, growing less fast, others that we need to stabilize. And always in a business like ours, there will be a consideration for what about the tail? What do we do with that? Speaker 1 How do you? How do you and? And you may have given the answer just now to the question I'm about to ask. But while you've got your priority brands and you've got now priority categories, right, which is to see the opportunity for tequila in markets where it's underdeveloped and the CDI is like nothing on a relative basis within the long tail of your portfolio. Over time have have brands you know, bubbled up that just somehow, for some reason have found a traction that surprised you? And what do you do in those moments? Speaker 2 I'm always open to that possibility, I'm sure. Speaker 1 Traction always open to traction. Speaker 2 The truth is when you look at now think about consumer 1st and what is happening in the world, what trends are taking place? Say for example the idea of consumers are drinking less but better and that is also. Speaker 1 So less, I'm sorry to interrupt. Less, but better. Speaker 2 More, more mindfully so, they will. Speaker 1 It's not that they're trading. Speaker 2 Less drinks, both, OK, it will. It may have a implication in terms of we call it premiumization, more expensive products. It may also mean different parts of day, which was my point. Earlier, like today, we're seeing in many parts of the world, people are drinking spirits brands earlier in the day, sometimes with food in the freeze food. Speaker 1 Like, I mean, we're recording this. I don't know. My clock is on LA time. What's it almost 11? Is it almost 11? I mean, is it too early to drink? I'm down. Like let's. Speaker 2 Go well I would say on a work day itself I would offer you non alcoholic products. Speaker 1 OK. However, if fast growing, fast growing part of that's. Speaker 2 Correct. If this was a Sunday and we were going to go to a Sunday brunch, then I would say we could entertain espresso martini with Ketel 1. Speaker 1 I mean, if I'm going to Sunday brunch, like it's no holds part, I'm, I'm entertaining, you know, all kinds of things. Speaker 2 But my point was if you think about those changes then and I mentioned the Espresso Martini as an example, we also have are promoting brands like you know Tanqueray with the gene and tonic in different ways, right. It really makes it well in that kind of occasion where you have more of a tapas type of food and it does go well. So I think you may have a consideration of this brand operates in this way because he has always done that. But if things are moving around you may consider how the those other brands that those brands are adapting into this occasion. The other thing I should say is we also have a big innovation program. So trademarks that have operating in a certain with a certain proposition actually have the opportunity and we are very mindful of what kind of scope they will play into or can play into. But we are, for example, I was, I mentioned a gene brand, Tanqueray. With a gene brand like Gordon's, we've also launching products that are of a different format with lower alcohol in them because they will play further in other occasions. Speaker 1 How do you for, for our CEO's in the audience, excuse me, who are building enterprises or buying enterprises that begin to integrate multiple brands and given in one given category. So use the example of of tank rating Gordon's. What's your portfolio approach to building brands that maybe cannibalize each other a little bit or don't cannibalize each other at all? What's, what's a framework our audience can can deploy and you know, for the CMOS and our audience too. Speaker 2 We certainly look at that segmentation well that I referred to earlier, the consumer choice framework. It's an easy way of thinking, what consumer need are you solving for, right? And then the all concept of brand positioning. So in the case of Tanqueray and Gordon's, they play in slightly different price points. Tanqueray has an A brand extension on tanqueray #10 which is really created for martinis, whilst Gordon has more of a skew in innovation terms towards more are we call them ready to drinks, more flavorful, different flavor offerings. So you can when you have multiple brands in one category, sometimes they are differentiated by themselves. Think about whiskey, we have differentiation by origin. You have differentiations by in our case of even Scotch whiskey if it's a single mold or if it's Johnny Walker. But even when that isn't the case, you can very well, and that's the job of your marketers. If you're the CEO, create a clear distinction between your existing portfolio brands. Make sure that they will interact perhaps at some point, but it's very possible to set them apart and have them serve different purposes, different needs from a consumer point of view. And I would also encourage the innovation to really tap into the different aspects so that you're in the end your whole that fan of possibilities is is widened, you maximize the potential of those trademarks. Speaker 1 You know, PNG, this may be old, I don't know that it carries through to the current day, but PNG used to, if I'm getting this right, have a philosophy of portfolio that's like, we don't cannibalize ourselves, somebody else is going to cannibalize us in in a world where, you know, segmentation plays an essential role in multiple brands within a given category, each have distinct positions, of course, in consumer segments. Do you ever consider like, yeah, maybe we should just go after ourselves in a way in the P&G model, because the job to be done by the brand, the problem you're solving for is the same like is, you know, do you have a perspective on when that? Speaker 2 Works out absolutely, because if you think about consumer behaviour, the idea of repertoire is real. There will be some consumers that are extremely, you know, I suppose loyal to a particular category like you are a whiskey drinker and all you drink ever is whiskey. OK. Even if that is the case, I would say we've got a large portfolio of whiskey brands. So I'm sure there is interaction between brands. Actually, I know that is the case, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that because we can serve different moments in time, different. Think about whiskey brands, they're very different flavour profiles. So if you're an aficionado, we can offer different flavour profiles such that if you have X number of occasions, I can gain share of your portfolio of occasions by leveraging My Portfolio in a certain way. Expanding Brand Occasions and Overcoming Internal Barriers What are the metrics you look at to determine where to invest? Speaker 2 Well, we've turned a ton of work in ROI. We developed a proprietary methodology with essentially attribution looking at ROI short term, long term. We, that system of ours is able to look at our total investment in absolute dollars and configure an optimal allocation of that investment. Learning from what has happened in the past. We ingest the data of what we've done, but it also considers what is expected in the future in terms of growth. Then I would say that is about investment specifically. But when you think about once you've done that, I think it's also fair to say, look, we look at the ton of short term metrics because short term does matter. We'd include the short term market share, the short term talkability. Speaker 1 How do I'm sorry to interrupt again, I'll I'll stop apologizing because I'm going to keep doing it. How? How do you draw a line between talkability from an attribution perspective? Talkability to commercial result? Speaker 2 I think we what we do is we use talkability as a almost like a beat as a bit of of the moment, so we observe what is happening because I'm looking for longevity and I'm looking for sustainable outcomes. That bit is informative, but it's not enough. It's informative, it is good, it's reassuring. It's a tool that we used to confirm that the choice has been positive, seems to be positive that that that won't come in the way of ensuring if it's a cultural platform for example that we have invested behind that we have metrics that indicate that long term expectation of results. Say, I mean I'm going to give you an example. If we have a partnership with the English Premier League and Guinness, I want to make sure well there is a talk ability aspect when we partner for a particular moment in time or a particular team and that is very exciting. But at the same time I want to make sure that our brand is doing well maybe during that period and we call it on trade in by consumption in bars, arrestors of off straight supermarket sales. I also want to make sure that, you know, moving forward, I have a greater association for a brand that is suitable for sports watching occasion, which is an occasion that I'm very interested in because it's very big. Speaker 1 Does does I'm thinking about occasions now and years ago I did a lot of work for the Coca-Cola Company in its portfolio and at that time and they seemed to bounce back and forth between intrinsics and extrinsics occasions and not they were very occasion focused. I also at that same time was doing work for a high end champagne brand that was really desperate to expand its occasion, right? Like champagne is delicious at dinner, not just for celebrations. And you know, so our work was to try and figure that out. I'm wondering and we really struggled with it. Like, you know, I did the end of 1 research of my wife was out. When she came home, I had a bottle of champagne on the table. What are we celebrating? It's just Tuesday night. We're celebrating that. That didn't become a campaign, as you may be aware. But like do occasions, besides being a leveraged, do you find that they can also be limiting, which you say, I mean, I don't think for a Guinness, right, which is an icon of its own type. But are there times when, when it's just hard to break out of the occasion? There's no elasticity. Speaker 2 No question it is hard. However, I think knowing, being knowledgeable about the occasion and the making of the occasion, it's actually critical. And I'll give you the example of Guinness again, you know, in the US, Guinness was very associated with Ireland and Saint Patrick's Day, that's a very specific time of year. We want it wider one day. How do we do it? OK. And learning in that case from how we've done it in other parts of the world has been really, really valuable. But even in Ireland, I can tell you for a long time he was much more associated and spiked more strongly in winter months than in summer months. He was a brand that was seen more appropriate for winter indoors warmth. You know it's a. Speaker 1 Cozy beer. Speaker 2 However, it is a cozy beer and that's wonderful. But he's perfectly suitable for summer, so we've done a lot of work. Lovely day for Guinness and, you know, many other things. The sports watching occasion is not necessarily attuned to one specific month it opens up. Speaker 1 So actually on, on that. And then I want to switch, switch directions a little bit on that. There's nothing. The only thing harder than creating a perception is shifting one, right? Because you, you, you are confronting established beliefs, good, bad, or otherwise. If you have an approach that you can recommend to the audience, that's like if I'm trying to shift perception of occasion suitability or a brand in its entirety, like here's a couple of things I'd be considering. Speaker 2 Absolutely. The first one I would say is the main barrier. Often times is internal. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 You have to overcome the strong beliefs of an organization that has learned for years that this is how it goes and so being able. Speaker 1 Status quo is. Speaker 2 Being able to just consider the possibility that this might be possible, you know that that might be the case, is essential. Yes, it's point #1 and oftentimes there's very little data about that because it hasn't been done. And I think there's the, for me, one of the big jobs of, of marketing actually, which is to open the possibility of a different future. Speaker 1 Yeah, You know, to your point, when when I was a strategist before coming to Forbes, my team would come to me with a response to a brief and they'd offer RTBS reasons to believe. I was like, I fucking hate reasons to believe because they're rooted in the past, right? I want to create new reasons to believe, so I asked them to come back with NRT VS right Because if it's just kind of rooted in what's been, yes, it's much more a. Speaker 2 100%, I think the that's for me. You were asking me earlier about the value of having a portfolio. It gives you lessons and it gives the organization lessons. So we haven't done it here, but we haven't that we've done something there. It's a source of inspiration and I think that cross fertilization, it really matters. You know, I can tell you about so many conversations regarding origin in whiskey, which is very, very important. Or in the journey of freedomization, the value of the years, you know, the signal of the number, the more the merrier, the more, the more valuable, which is not untrue, but it's not necessary always. So I'll give you an example. For a long time we were hearing look to command a certain price point in Scots whiskey. You can only do it through a single malt. And Johnnie Walker is not a single malt is made of single malts, is a blend of malts. And we felt, I felt this brand, which stands for progress, has the ability to break the norm and do something else. Yeah, I really fundamental. Speaker 1 Responsibility even. Speaker 2 I fundamentally believed in that. And you know, thankfully, you know, there was more belief than just me. Speaker 1 And we've done it. Is that what we've done, Johnny Blue? Speaker 2 Johnny Walker Vault. Speaker 1 Vault. Speaker 2 Vault is really at a very, very high end, yeah, very, very high end. Speaker 1 Maybe we do a tasting before this is all over. Creating Agile Marketing Organizations for Future Effectiveness We do. All right, let me switch gears with you because excuse me, I'm sure my audience loves when I clear my throat and their ears. You, you talked about the pace of change in the very beginning of our conversation. And and I'm wondering given that pace of change, how how you're organizing, reorganizing your own marketing organization to meet and lead changes in the marketplace and and respond to what will drive value moving forward? Speaker 2 Absolutely. I think that has been occupying a lot of my mind for the last good couple of years. And I'll tell you what I think this will be relevant for, for bigger people, different industries. Look at CMOS, we have a tremendous pressure to ensure that our the investment behind the brands is effective and efficient. And I think this happens across the patch. And to me, there's the big, obviously I want the brands to have investment that ensures that they continue to be aspirational and iconic. And that requires investment because of fragmentation. The requirement hasn't come down in absolute dollars because you have to attend to multiple tax points. The quantity of content is expanded, not not being reduced. And so the way in which I thought about it was, look, there's ways in which we can organize ourselves differently that enables for greater effectiveness and efficiency. And this is what we've done in very simple terms, we've created a like a group is called the conscious create teams, OK, the conscious create teams, it's about create. This is in particular refers to how do we create and it's comprised of a global people, global teams and a couple of the lead markets. That group of people on behalf of everybody else in Global Brands defines the asset matrix. What are the things that we will do and in a very small number, the three or four things that we will do. And then we gather the last majority of the investments that goes behind developing those assets together and that then is utilized broadly across the broader community of. Speaker 1 That is, is the conscious create team fundamentally a center of excellence that services the whole portfolio or? Speaker 2 There, it's more than that because it actually does the doing, it does the doing, it does the doing on behalf of on behalf of everybody else, yes, and it gathers the funding. So it's a very new thing. Speaker 1 So how does the brand manager in Paris feel about that? Speaker 2 It's a very good question to be honest with you. That cultural change is the biggest challenge in that essentially you changing how the construction of the creative is done and it reduces the fragmentation. So it's a very good thing from a business point of view. Of course, we're subject to performance, right? That creation from that group needs to deliver the results. So that group is also owner of the KPIs now. It also has pluses from I think about talent development and we can have various people coming into those groups to learn and to participate selectively. But the other thing that I think is really important to recognize and we haven't talked about AI yet not I'm not suggesting that we necessarily don't think. Speaker 1 We're talking about it in the pace of. Speaker 2 But the truth is exactly in. In this sense, the application of content, if the adaptation of content is enabled by our AI work which we have set up, we call it the virtual content studios. And the brand manager in the market more than ever is owning that piece because that piece needs to work locally and talking about beats and talking about measuring performance in, in short waves, in that short rhythm that is needs to happen in the local market. So there's a there's a spike that is required in understanding your local reality, understanding and affecting executing the deployment of the work and then feeding that back to that group of people. What? Speaker 1 What was? What was your insight or observation that led led the from to shift that led you to create this group? Speaker 2 The biggest thing for me, Seth, was how can we reduce fragmentation of create and adapt because in the past we would have had a central piece of content and then have it be funneled through the multiple geographies in ways that are very fit for purpose. Now not that is not wrong. It's just a bit more expensive that I needed to be. So it's a way of reducing cost and maximizing the synergies. And in fact, one of the big outcomes for me is that by creating this group of people this way and joining forces this way, we've been able, interestingly, to do some things that perhaps it would have been either harder or would have taken longer to do in the way that we did things before. Learning from Luxury and the Power of Product Craft Well, efficient, I will say one of my observations is, is, you know, over the last five or six years in particular, efficiencies become, you know, synonymous with strategy, which it absolutely is not. And I, I have always found it curious that we as business leaders aren't always aspiring to be efficient. It's like, oh, you know, a recessionary economy, you got to be efficient. Like, I don't fucking know. I think you had to be efficient in a prosperous economy. But we talked about category. I want to take you outside of yours and get your perspective as as you know, both as a consumer, a human and and as a practitioner. Is there any kind of, you know, categories? You look out category on mass, with it you're like. Yeah, they do great work as a category. You know, and I'm not just talking about advertising, but they really seem for me it's insurance, right? Like at least in America, I don't, I don't know the category outside of America, but like over and over again, a low engagement category does work. That is high engagement. Interestingly, it's almost always based on characters. These are campaigns that are in some cases 25 years old. And I'm like, I don't understand why this category is just crushing it creatively. Is there one that you think just like or two you think do a great job? Speaker 2 I mean, I'll tell you, I take a lot of inspiration actually from the luxury category in general, and I'll tell you why there's a lot. Speaker 1 Of commonalities. Speaker 2 There is some. There's two things in my mind. One is the love for the craft, which I think is so critical, and also the love for the care for the people of your customers in a way that both in the extreme ways. Now when you translate those concepts to ACPG world, you can always have it be the same. But in many ways, certainly for me, it applies a lot, certainly the craft piece. Speaker 1 When you talk about craft in the context of luxury, you're talking about the the the love of the craft at the product phase and or the marketing phase. Speaker 2 I was thinking more of the product phase, but the product phase is essential for the marketing phase, inextricable, inextricable. And if I think about, you know, someone was asking me recently, how would you teach someone who's new about marketing? Speaker 1 That was me yesterday that. Speaker 2 Was you yesterday? And I mean reflecting on it, actually think about me, my own learning. Definitely a big eye opener for me was going to Scotland, right? If you go to the place where your product is made and you meet the people who make it today, and then you're exposed to all the history of how this thing came about and the care and the love and the passion, it's so inspirational. I take every creative team that works on these brands to Scotland or or to Mexico in the case of Not Julio You. Speaker 1 Know it. It raises a question for me. So my first job was at Avion when nobody knew how to pronounce it or why they needed to buy it. And within about two years of Avion launching, because it was in the United States, there were 1000 competitors, literally regional, local competitors, and essentially the same bottle at much lower price points. Basically everybody at that time was communicating on source, right? Made in the mountains of, you know, Appalachia, pure, clean spring water. While Avion had a true source story, our I'd say our like, I had nothing to do with it. I was hanging banners at tennis tournaments. But you know, our, our CEO's perspective was we don't need to play an origin story, at least not overtly right, because the origin it wasn't differentiating in many of the categories that you play in, origin is an essential part of the story. But for origin to be truly differentiating, you really got to understand origin stories. You got to be, you know, an aficionado of sorts. At what point do you kind of category? Do you think category prerequisites, category codes are limiting and or I guess useful? Speaker 2 I would make the distinction of understanding deeply and valuing the origin, the prognostic craft, and how much space does it take in your communication. And frankly, that's a great point for which stakeholders? You know, going back to our conversation on whiskey, I may not have a ton of comes around the liquid. However, when I'm speaking to bartenders, I definitely talk a lot about the liquid. I definitely explain at length what about flavor profiles, flavor mapping and so forth. However, I think when I was talking about my inspiration from luxuries, valuing the product that you're selling very much and having that be your backbone, you're certain that what you're doing is that valuable product that comes from that place that is made with such care. I think it's reassuring and it gives the organization confidence, not just the marketers, everybody. I mean we talk at the age of, you know, 29,000 brand builders, but I think there's real value in that concept because marketers cannot be present in every single touch point. Oftentimes it will be sales teams or you know, other people in the organization. How do you know that when they go out and about and do their jobs, they have such care and attention for that executional detail? Speaker 1 Because they are. Speaker 2 Absolutely, because they love the branch. Speaker 1 Or protecting. Speaker 2 Or because they love the branch. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. And I don't mean your people, but broadly and yeah, you know, Kofi Ammu Gottfried, you know, said on early episode of the show. You know, brand is everyone's responsibility. Navigating Short-Term Pressures for Long-Term Marketing Growth Yeah, you've been so generous with your time and your thinking and your brain. I want to, I want to ask you a last question before, before we say goodbye, which is not at Diageo. But speaking broadly, what do you think can get in the way of marketing to I acknowledge as I ask this question, I have to interrupt myself because while many things can get in the way of marketing delivering against its growth mission, what do you think kind of the big two or three watch outs are organizationally, internally, externally? Speaker 2 I think looks some of the short term pressures can get in the way. Interestingly, you have to respond to them, you cannot ignore them. Yeah. But what I'm what's in my mind is you have to be able to deliver on those whilst keeping your head high and looking further out. The lack of foresight either because you don't equipped or because you're trapped in some form of short term could get in the way. And so I would encourage every marketer to ensure that whatever's going on in their world, they keep very present. What is it that only you can do for that business? Because when it is about having the consumer very present, being able to deliver on what consumers need in you, whichever industry you're working at, only you can do and make sure that you bring that to the business every single day. Speaker 1 Perfect place to end. Christina Diaz Handino, thank you so much for being with us. And to our listeners and our watchers, thank you for being with us. As I am prone to say, smash that subscribe button. If you like the show, please do give it a rating as I should be looking at camera, not at you. But whatever, you know, our audience knows to expect nothing from me. That's how other people find the show. We appreciate you. We'll see you next time. Thank you. Speaker 2 Again, my pleasure.