The Old Way of Leading Is Over With Blake Reed Evans

hairstylist, when does it end? When will you actually start to put yourself first so you can make more money, keep more money, and do it without feeling guilty? I'll tell you when, right, mother, effing now. Welcome to the Make That Money Podcast with Nina Tulio, where we talk all things pricing, all things profit, and how to build your business with confidence. Hey, hey there, welcome back to the Make That Money Podcast. I am your host Nina Tulio, and listen, I have been surprising you this year because you know the Make That Money Podcast is very different than the Noce-Iless Left Behind Podcast with my bestie Jay Ladner. I host this by myself, and I rarely, rarely have guests. But in 2026, I have been bringing the heat with some guests, and this episode is no different. Let me tell you, I am beyond excited to have my guest on today, and I think you're going to be so excited too, because not only will you be excited to hear all of the things that he has to say and his knowledge and everything that he presents on this topic, but we are going to be talking about leadership and culture. And today, it's really all about connection over control, and how to lead Salons in 2026. You know, I am very passionate about this subject. I've been talking about leadership and culture since 1982. Not that long ago, but you know what I mean. And my guest today is definitely going to be bringing the heat because it's a topic that he's also very passionate about. So I am so excited to announce my special guest today, Blake Reed Evans, who is an educator, a salon owner, a hairstylist, but so many more things. The list could go on, but we're not going to name them. Thank you so much, my friend, for being here. I'm so excited to have you. I'm so excited to be here too. I honestly, I've looked up to you for so many years. I remember connecting with you on social like a thousand years ago at this point. It's just it's awesome. I'm glad that our paths have crossed. Oh, thank you. A thousand years. Wow, I'm like so old. We've been at the social game for a while. I know. Like it's great. Obviously, it's great because we were able to connect. I know. And we met in person. So this just in 2025 at Nashville, at the Modern Salon boot camp, we met in person. And I was so excited to meet you in person because I've been also following you and watching your journey and everything that you have done and what you're sharing and how you're sharing, you know, it's the message that I think that you're sharing in this industry. And so it was such a joy to hang with you and sit with you and laugh with you and kiki at the Modern Salon event. And so now here we are. Here we are. I know. I absolutely love that event. I like I like when things are kind of like brand list, even though brands were present. Like I like that because it just, you know, everyone is so like minded in that room. And obviously, we're very like minded on so many things. And so it's just so great. Whenever we can just get together and do something like that. I know it was very neutral. And it was it was a really good crowd to everybody. It was so fun and light. And yes, it was. And the hotel either. Oh, I love the hotel, the dolly hotel. I was obsessed. I couldn't even believe it. I was like, is this real life? It was just so cute. And it was clean. And it was just like, it was such a vibe. So it was the graduate, right? Is that the name of the whole? Yeah. Yeah. And it has like the dolly part and rooftop. But like, dolly was like in there's like a shrine of her above my bed. Yes. My own house now. But yeah, it was it was great. I was like freezing my ass off trying to take a picture with her sculpture on the rooftop. You know, because that's great. The things we do for dolly. Yeah. Anything, anything. Oh my goodness. Okay. We're we're going to dive into this topic about leadership leadership and culture. I believe really, really go together. And I, I know that you're down for all of the things. So I'm going to just come at you. Just out the gate. Come out swinging. And I, you know, when it comes to leadership, I think one of the things that happens with salon owners and just beauty industry businesses period who are leading a team is a lot of times they think the answer is being a yes leader. And I want to talk about why does being a yes leader slowly erode culture and standard in the business. Yeah. I mean, I think straight away if you're a yes person, that means that you have no follow-through on consequences. And like what that does is that it might make you popular with a collective for a very short amount of time. But the second that you don't follow through on one of the policies you claim to have, then all of a sudden you lose trust in the collective, right? And in its slow. And I I love that you use the word erode because I think that's exactly what it does. It is a slow and silent killer when you don't follow through with consequences. You know, it's really interesting. I had a situation with my team recently where there was a friction between two people. And when the person shared this with me, I said, okay, what would you like me to do? And they and you know, they were like, I don't think anything wants to happen. All right. I don't want anything to happen. I feel better. We talked about it. They apologized. I was like, okay, great. And then two days goes by, I get another call saying, you know what? I think I want to formally write this down. And I was like, you know what? That's totally fine. Like let's let's go ahead and write it down. And so I spoke to the person. I told the person that, you know, things were handled. And that there was still something in the person where they felt like I didn't do enough because I had a conversation. They're like, why won't you write them up? And that I was like, well, that's, you know, it respectfully is not up for you to decide like a written documentation and a write up, like what's the difference? The conversation was had. And I thought that that was a really interesting situation that because I still didn't do it in the way that she would have if she were my shoes. Like there was a moment where I think that she lost trust in me. And I was, but then when I clarified of like what truly is the difference between a written documented incident and a write up, like it was handled. And you know, and I apologize if I didn't clarify that it was written down to her, but I even think about those small things where I like, we think we're handling it. Yeah. And then, and then what? You know, and so I'm constantly trying to think about like, are we making sure that they know we're taking action on the things that we can take action on? Because I'm a really big fan of handle everything privately. We talk to people all the time. Yeah. Sometimes it's a casual conversation outside of the salon that no one knows about. But how do we make sure the rest of the team knows that we are following through it? So it is a really sticky thing. It's hard. It really is hard. Oh, it is. I feel like it's like when you're a salon owner or you're leading a team period, it's like walking a tightrope. Because one slip of a pinky toe and you're on one side and one slip of the big toe, you're on the other. You know what I mean? It's just really, really tight fine line of like, which way do I want to go? And I feel like it's easy to be a yes person because it's comfortable for a while. And when I say yes person, I mean like, oh, can I have off? Yes. Oh, can I take off for three weeks? Sure. Oh, can I, I'm running late? Is that okay? Yes. You know, oh, does it matter that I don't follow the standard or protocol when it comes to intake forms with the client? Yeah, no problem. Like, that's a constant yes person. And what I have found and I'd love to hear your insight on this is that that grows tired. Like being a yes person, it not only grows tired for you the owner, you're going to get exhausted of that. But it also grows tired for the team. Believe it or not, despite what people say, people like structure and they like standards and they like routine. So I want to know how you feel about that. Like if you're constantly saying yes, like, what does that look like for the team? Like how are they, how are they feeling? And are they like, yay, this is amazing. And then like, wait, we don't have standards. Wait, we don't have any kind of, like system or protocol that we're following? Yeah. I mean, there's two things that come to mind. The first thing is for salon owners that have been yes people, like we were kind of forced into a corner in this industry to be yes people right after the pandemic because every salon company was bleeding people. And I don't care if you're an owner of sweets, you were also bleeding people, you know, and so you kind of had to be a yes person just to hold on to your team. And I remember looking at our business partners one day, it must have been about two years ago now. And I was like, we have to tighten up. Like we have to have policies and procedures. We have to follow through because we're back in the position of we can do that because if we lose people now, we'll be fine. But there was a period of time where I really felt like we couldn't, you know, and so if you're an owner that's stuck in the ass, like, it's not your fault. I mean, it's been the reality for the last six years for us in the industry, but you have to tighten up. What I've learned is instead of it being top-down decision-making, it's collaborative decision-making where we come up with a lot of the policies from the team. But the thing I want to be clear about is that just because they have a voice doesn't mean they have a say. There's a really big difference in that. So them having a voice is just saying they're going to voice their opinion on what they think the dress code policy should be or what happens if you miss a class or if you are late or you have to have a redo. Like they can kind of come up with those rules and then you get to pick the best ones that fit your business because that's the end of the day. It's your business. My favorite thing though about getting the team to come up with the rules and the policies and consequences themselves is once they agree to it, they can never hold it against you. And they will try to though, not all of them, but some of them well at some point. And then you can say, "Hey, remember when you were part of the collective that came up with this, these rules and policies. So what is the issue for you now?" And then if it's consistent, then maybe you do need to reevaluate your policy. but chances are they're part of the collective that made the decision. You know, it is super interesting how people will once, while try to flip on you on things that they agreed to do. You know? For sure. And I think there's a difference too. There's a difference in listening and then saying yes to everything. I think what people want is they want to be heard. They want to be valued, seen, and heard. Meaning we're listening to what they're going to say, but it doesn't mean that we're going to take action on everything that they say. And for instance, I remember in my salon, there was an issue and one of the girls was like, "My clients are saying that they don't like the color of the wall." And I'm like, "That's what we're worried about right now. Like, we have bigger issues here." You know? Now I heard her. I didn't say that. I thought that to myself. But like, that's the problem. Like, we're going to say that the wall color is a problem for clients not coming back. Like, we need to think a little bit deeper on that. Now I understand that it was like a nice, blu-y gray. I literally was wondering that the entire time. Okay. Like, is it hot orange? Like, Cheeto orange? What is the color? It was a beautiful red. Yeah, that was the hot color there for a second though. Before that was like lime green. Yes. How do lime green wall? Yeah, no, it was very dark brown, cream, and blues. Very, very cool and calm. Like, the space that I wanted to create. And, you know, I listened to her of course, but just because she said they don't like the wall, doesn't mean I was going to change the color of the wall because that was part of my brand. And I said, "Thank you so much for telling me that. I appreciate it. Let's see what kind of feedback we get. But I mean, I can't change the wall color because Karen and Bonnie said they didn't like it. You know? But what's the deeper issue here? So there is a part of we listen, but it doesn't mean we have to act on everything. And I think that's where people get sometimes salon owners get a little bit lost because they're like, well, they told me that they need this so I have to say yes. There's like a pressure there. Yeah, well, and I also think too, like the way we approach things in our company is like, it's yes and so you don't want to work nights and we can straight out the gate. Totally, you absolutely can because listen, we do have to be more flexible than ever. Sure. Here's the price to pay. You're going to grow probably, you're going to see your peers grow twice as fast as you. That's the reality. So please don't get bitter when that happens. Yeah. Or it's, can I have today off because I don't have anybody totally. Do you want to make up time later on or do you just need the day totally fine? But if it happens three times in one month, then it's a yes and we need to evaluate your schedule. You know, so you can be flexible. I say yes all the time. Like we're having an issue with our team creating like not fake consultations, but they would put consultations on their book to like come in late, like the morning, the morning, or if they just needed a whatever. This is pertinent. We're like, why don't you just text us? We never say no. Yeah. But if it is a consistent thing, then yes, of course we would come to you and say like maybe 8 AM start times are not for you. Maybe you needed to go our afternoon shift. Like that's all it's going to look like. Yeah. It's not, it shouldn't be anything scary, but it is interesting when they do things. And all the time, they're like, we don't want to bother you. And I was like, it's literally our job to be bothered because it's not bothering us at all, but it is interesting. But yeah, like yes, and just kind of like our new era of like, yeah, like, but we do have policies that you have to adhere by, you know, like one standards. Yeah, and standards and like, and so yeah, so we do our best, but it is interesting. But if you say no all the time, because I know a lot of some owners that still try to rule with an iron fist and it just does not work. It barely worked, you know, up until like 2010. Yeah. But it really just, it doesn't work today. And first of all, people have more knowledge. Never we all talk to each other. We all have TikTok to be able to connect with each other. We know what life is like outside of other salons. And I always view it this way is that as hairdressers, we could go do hair in a field and we'll have people show up here. So like you really got made it make it a fun, exciting place for people to grow, for people to stick around with you for a long time. Because like, you know, you and I could drop everything tomorrow, move to the beach and braid hair on the beach, you know, that's the beautiful thing of having a trade. You know, so yes, you've got to have a space that makes people excited to come work for you. Absolutely. And you know, when you said about flexibility, it's so incredibly true. And I remember talking about this maybe 2021 after COVID and, you know, we were starting to then tighten things up a little bit because you hit the nail on the head where, you know, you had to be more flexible than ever because there were a lot of things and shifts and things that were going on. So then you became a yes person, right? So flexibility and then yes for everything. And then I started to say like this flexibility is, you know, we've got to be flexible, but we can still keep the standard. And I actually talked about this when I was speaking at modern. And I said structured flexibility. And people are like, what the heck is that? Yes. Structured flexibility is honestly, you're keeping your standard and your expectation at the forefront, but the direction and the journey to get people to point eight to point Z is going to be flexible. It's going to be conversational. It's going to be the why behind it. It's going to be different for some people than it is for others because everybody functions differently and everybody's needs are different in the business. And so we can still with hold standards have a people first salon and still have structure. They can live together in one, but it is that tight rope that we continue to walk for sure. Yeah, absolutely. And it's just I think flexibility is so necessary in the same breath of like once you're flexible, that means you actually have more rules. Because if you're like a hard fast person, it's black and white, right? But if you do truly live in the gray area, like we probably all should, you're going to be able to get people on your side. You're going to be able to get people to feel comfortable with you. And like an example I had is I had to team member who kept requesting time off like within a couple of weeks or come in late, leave early and super unusual for the person. So I said after the third time, I was like, let's sit down and let's just catch up with each other. And of course, that's scary to hear from your salon owner. Yeah. But I was just like, how is everything are you okay? And then she goes, oh my God. Yes, it's just my other job and my husband and my blah blah blah. And I was like, listen, life is life in right now. Like do you want to drop Thursdays for the next six weeks so you can catch your breath? And they're like, no, I do need to work. You're right. I should focus. And I was like, I didn't say you need to focus. But you said that. So do you need coaching on focusing while you're out the salon? You know, let's talk. But life, life's in if you want something to work with you for 35, 40 years, you've got to go through the ebbs and flows of life, you know, getting obviously getting sick and then maybe having kids getting married, going through divorce, you know, buying a house and moving and going through that, you know what I mean? Like, and then edging towards retirement, they want to slow down. And if you really want to have this huge legacy salon, you have to deal with life's ups and downs and have understanding. Yes. Absolutely. Tell us a little bit about your salon. You're in Florida. I know that. But like how many stylists do you have? Like just give us the tea. Yeah. So we're in Tampa, Florida. Our salon opened in 1986. So we were celebrating 40 years this year and started in a two chair, 400 square foot salon in 1986 with our founder, Joanne Powers. Today we have two locations and a boutique all in Tampa, Florida. And we probably hover around like 45 service providers. One location has a salon and spa. The other location is just hair. And we probably have maybe like 65 to 70 employees at any given time. Yeah. I started there as an associate or an assistant if people are familiar with what associates are. And I bought it into the salon seven years ago. And it's incredible. So I'm part owner. I'm having a great leadership team. And it's truly a place where I've literally grown up. I started there at 19 years old. And I'm very thankful for our team is really incredible. Like, you know, and because of what we do in travel and education, I mean, salons all over. And and I can really safely say like, this is such an incredible group for me. It's just the right place for me to thrive and grow. And they've dealt with all of my stuff. Like I travel so much, you know, and that's amazing. That's such great support from them. And when I think about my team and, you know, it's just there's such incredible people. And I just feel so thankful for them and the team and everything. What an accomplishment. Good for you. That's amazing. And I love hearing that that relationship is it sounds warm and it sounds inclusive and also just allowing you to live your life with education and do your thing and still be a part of this amazing salon, which is, you know, that's the dream, right? That's what that's what we would love to do when we're salon owners. You still want to have the flexibility for yourself to be able to, you know, live up your dreams as well. So speaking of flexibility, structure, shifting, all of those things, let's talk about commission because you're like, yes, I want to talk about the why, why doesn't the just pay them more? You know, like, oh, I'm just going to pay them more. Why that doesn't actually fix engagement in salons because engagement, I'm over motivation. We've moved on for motivation. We're looking for people to be engaged. That is what is going to deliver results for both them and the business. So why doesn't the, I'll just throw more commission percentage at them. Why isn't that working anymore? Because it's a temporary fix. Like the straightforward is, is that people are money motivated. Obviously, like, we all have to be in some shape where you're former else. We don't live, right? But it's such a temporary effects. It's also not a smart idea to do because the margins are so small and salons and like if you're a stylist listening to this and you're rolling your eyes because you're like they take 50% like it's expensive. Hey, Rolex is freaking expensive. And while that's not your problem as a stylist to taking consideration, it's like the more you eat into the margins also like the less you can do for your team in terms of like benefits like we offer health insurance and vision that we pay into, you know, like all of our costs are free. We've you know cater everything breakfast and lunch. Like these are things that are important costs and they're costly. And talking on engagement, it is very expensive. I know. But it's one of those things that that's where we get a lot of engagement out of our employees. But that's why I really love our system. So it just it's black and white promotions. If you do these goals, then you increase to your level, your prices go up and then of course your commission goes up as well. And it's merit-based. And I love that because you don't have to wait for someone to like you to get a promotion. You just have to work your ass off and then you're going to get it, you know. And yeah, so I've I see a lot of salons. I mean, I came across a salon recently that was paying people 70% commission their taxes. And it's so shocking to me because typically someone who is super established already costs you even more money because they typically, if you're really doing this commission thing, like you probably have paid vacation and of course their service dollars are super high. And you know, so it is it is very very interesting. While in the same breath, like please don't try to pay people like 30% commission because that's like the worst thing. You like it's so unfair. It's so unfair. It has to be a fair wage. It has to be fair wage for sure. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it can't just be minimum wage because you know, schools $20,000 to I heard one school now is like up to $30,000 for a primary school. And I think private hair schools worth it for the right individuals. So we've got to pay them, you know, it's super inquiring. I'm all about fair wages, but also wages that make sense. It has what has to make sense for them has to make sense for the business. And with that being said, you know, there's a side to this. There's commission is important. It's not the only thing. Of course, we have to get our pricing right because you know, I've been talking a lot about this too, where if we increase prices, it actually comes out to more of a raise than giving them a 2% increase in commission. If we do the pricing right and we have those 10% increases, I use using that as an example. And so it's not just commission percentage, it's the benefit package. It's the whole package that you're offering. You mentioned healthcare, vision, you know, if there's pay time off, whatever that is that people are offering, there's money that goes into that. It's not just about the commission percentage. The other thing I want to touch on since you brought up level systems because there's a lot of conversation lately about level systems and how they're not beneficial and how it's outdated and all those things. And I work off of a benchmark system in terms of how I teach and everything is performance-based. And I'm curious to know your thoughts on this because I know that you coach and teach to this as well. So what are your thoughts behind that these level systems no longer work and they're not beneficial for salons and growth? Yeah, it's interesting because I think that the reason why people think that they don't work is because it hurts their ego and like maybe I'll get canceled for saying that. But I think that sometimes when people don't like level systems, a lot of the times, it's because they feel like there's like halves and half knots. The reality is if a swan does level systems really well, you could have someone that is a level one forever and you should be keeping them as long as they're not costing the business money if they're hitting commission. Like why do you care? Because you need an ecosystem, right? Like so of course you're going to have people that jump levels really quickly. You're going to have people who stay level one forever and then like wake up one day and they're motivated as long as they're happy. Like that should make you happy and that should be enough. Now of course if they're costing you money, then maybe they shouldn't be a part of your business because that's not how business works. But the whole level system is the idea of that you have a really clear path to growth. It's black and white. Like I love that you said that you know, with what you do is it's performance based. And for us, we only look at three metrics when someone is jumping at service sales per day. We can even go per hour if it needs to be their prebook percentage and then retail. Retail is also one of the biggest things that level swans get is like why do people care about people who sell retail? And the reality is that swans don't make enough money off of retail truly to like care about the dollars that you get out of it. It's one to provide a high end experience. The second thing is that people who buy retail don't care about price increases. So if you have to think about if someone buys shampoo and conditioner every other visit, their ticket goes up and it goes down. So whenever you raise your prices and your ticket goes up $10, those people are a lot less likely to notice something like that increasing. So the level system is there. So you have a clear path to growth and you just know what your earning potential is. Like we can confidently say we people can earn over $200,000 in our organization if they play their cards right. And it's all based on numbers. The other thing that I think is cool is in a whole salon company, you serve a really wide breath of socioeconomic groups. So you can serve people who either are just below the median income and then you can of course go to the highest to highest. And you know the people who want to pay the most just to say that they did. And that to me is what creates a really beautiful ecosystem. I know that there are people out there who say like let your team charge what they want. And that just sounds like a recipe for disaster. And maybe it works and I could be completely wrong. But it is really an interesting conversation. But I'm telling you it works for us. We know I think we've had levels system since 2004. So way before my time. And it's about it's about shifting and changing with the way that things are shifting and changing in the industry too. Because there was a time where you know, when I was coaching with a benchmark system that we had a lot of specifics that they had to hit in order for them to move. Right. Well, I had to have 12 referrals, three months in a row to jump. Oh wow. Each month. Wow. And on top of it, I've been talking about the slugs. It feel like it's been long enough. I had to have 90 guests every month for three months in a row. And then for my other one, I had to have like 120 guests a month each month. And I was like, this is crazy. And actually, I remember saying this to them, I was like, how am I out earning your level four stylists? Right. I'm not jumping because I've hit the dollar amount, but I don't have 120 people like this is nuts. And they changed it. And that's the one thing that I do appreciate is that they are like evolving. Yeah. You know, but it is it is super super interesting. But yeah, sorry, sorry to interrupt. No, that's good. I'm glad you're sharing nuts. The 10,000 metrics. Yeah, we can. It's three that make economic sense. But the thing I always want people to understand is like the jump should never be the goal, which should be increasing your lifestyle, taking care of gas as best as you can. If you focus on those two things, you're naturally going to increase your income and then you're naturally going to jump. The jumps are just there to make it clear that it's time to increase your prices because your demand is increased. That's all it is. And if a salon owner is doing it right, that's how it should go. Yeah, there isn't a business on the planet that doesn't have goals and benchmarks for their people to hit. You know, and you can work, I'm not even talking about in our industry, but in any industry, there are benchmarks and KPIs and things that you have to pay attention to in order to grow and get raises and all those things. So it isn't a lost art or a lost art form. I should say that's like it's this new revelation that's happening in our industry. But I will say that things have gotten super stripped down and there are different specifics that I coach to that. And one of them is productivity, you know, because that's a big driver in the industry. Yeah, I think fan of that personally. Yeah. And I think with productivity, it's like when you get busier, you're going to make more money. You're going to get increases. You're going to, you know, get commission bumps, right? And productivity is a big lever and driver of revenue and sales. And I do have to say that a lot of the salon owners that I work with, we've been kind of toying with the, because any kind of benchmarks system I create for a salon is not it's customized to their business. It's not cookie clutter. One is right. It's not one size fits all right. So some of them have actually been pulling their pre booking percentage because they're no longer using that as a lever and even retail, which believe me, I know retail is important. I get it. I understand it. I think it is absolutely a part of the client experience. But in a lot of the salons, if that's not a focal point for them, we don't want to put something in there that's not going to be attainable and achievable for their stylist where they feel like they're being held back. So I think in contrast, I'm just saying there is not one size fits all. But what you're doing in your business works for your business and it's amazing. When I'm coaching and teaching, which is very similar, just different KPIs, it all can work. But I feel like there are a lot of conversations out there that are making people feel like there is only one way to run a salon business that's successful. And I just don't buy into that. Yeah, well, that's why like nothing should ever be cookie cutter because like, you know, two salons are the same even two salons across the street from sure. So it's really important. I think like you said, it's for it to not be cookie cutter, make everything custom. And you're right, like I'm honestly like if I were to build something from scratch, I would have retail, but it would be very minimal. Like you would be like a very chic boutique offering affiliate links are super right? Yeah, but in the same breath, it would still be there because it is such a great support. But yeah, but you're right, it's like retail for us because you know, I come from a world where people like eight on our systems because of the retail part. We look at it from 360. We look at it from units per guest, retail to service percentage, dollars per guest, dollars per day. Like we look at it kind of in a 360 way because we do want to find a win for people. Like I have really high service sales. So my like RTS percentage, retail to percentage is typically lower because of how high my services are. Like that's not fair. You know, so we got to look at it from so many different ways. So yeah, but no, I think I think that this whole conversation of there's one way to do things as such BS because like as much as I listen to slant who do only hourly pricing, I like to do hourly pricing sometimes, but I'm not really like for me, I'm like for certain very specific situations, but like anything else, like I don't know, it doesn't, if I can knock it out in 15 minutes, I should be able to charge the people. Right. Well, I was going to say that that was the thing and no shade on hourly pricing either. And I have students that, you know, they like hourly pricing. However, you shouldn't be undercharging because you're efficient. And I think that's where we run into issues sometimes with hourly pricing, but also with product costs because if you're wrapping in, if you can get everything done in an hour, a haircut, a gloss, a treatment, and you throw all that in, well, now your product cost is rising and is that hourly rate going to support the product cost that's going into that service. So I think there's a million ways to split it, right? But I think, you know, it's understanding your business and understanding what's going to work best for you and blocking out the noise and the trends on social media because we all know that trends don't build businesses, systems do. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When it comes to conversations and hard conversations, because I think it's really tough for us as leaders to have these tough, tough conversations with team members, what do you feel is one of the hardest conversations that salon leaders avoid that is actually hurting their salon business? I think when you're not coaching or having the hard conversations about when it comes to your values and your morals and your ethics of your salon, everything that you let slide, like, how people say what you permit, you promote. And when I think about that, what you permit, what you allow, you promote. And so that means that you would be standing on the side of the road with a sign saying, please show up late, please be mean to other people, please overcharge your clients, please, that's what you're saying. And so you have to say the thing, now I'm of the mindset of everything that can be said should be said kindly, even if it's hard, you know, and so that's the kind of stuff that I think is really important for us as owners is to really have the conversation, you can do so kindly, because if you do it mean you're going to get a bad reaction, because I do it kindly and I get bad reactions once still, I know. And so it's really important to do everything with kindness, but say the thing, I'm also team say it casually first before you make it formal. You know, the second you're like, can you meet with me in the office like that's serious. Yeah, you know, versus being versus someone being late, just being like, hey, I know you were delayed today is everything okay. That's just me acknowledging that you were late. Yeah. That's it. Or what did you mean whenever you said, X, Y, Z to me, you know, and then they clarified it's like, okay, thank you so much. You know, I just that didn't feel very good. Right. Again, that's you acknowledging that they said something on kind without it being this formal intense thing, you can write it down if you want in their employee file, because it can be just like an unwritten documented thing. It's casual first and then formal second, and then that works for me. And I find that casual thing fixes the problem so fast. Yeah. But then we have people who just can't like they just can't operate under what our expectations are like, so I'm super messy like and it's it become an issue for not one, two, three, you know, in our company, we had six people complaining about somebody once about how messy they were, something had to be done. So casual first didn't work. Second one, formal, third one, formal, three chances. Fourth one was this isn't working. Right. You know, but at least we tried, you know, but we also said the thing. Can you imagine if we were like, oh, but they bring in so much money. So like, they need messy as they want. You lose all accountability and respect for your team. And the trust, right? Which is so hard to which is so hard to gain. And I think, you know, you're so right when it comes to avoiding conversations, it's like avoiding numbers in your business. Like your business isn't going to get better or get out of debt if we avoid the conversation. So things aren't going to shift and change if we avoid the conversation. And look, I used to avoid my numbers and my business because I was so nervous and scared to see what the hell was going on because I knew it was bad. But by doing that, I ended up getting myself in a lot of debt and a lot of trouble. And so with those conversations, you know, I love to tell my coaching clients, I loved what you said about casual first. It's just a little touch point because now it's just making the awareness is there. You're not avoiding it, but you're not going in head on like a bulldozer. And you don't have to, you know, and I think if you can just do those little touch points and make them casual, it just makes the conversation so much lighter and easier and people respond better to that. But if you avoid it, the behavior continues. And when the behavior continues, people start to get irritated. When they're irritated, they're not engaged, which means they're not showing up for you and the profit goes in the shitter. So I mean, it is just like vicious cycle, right? So I think we no longer want to avoid. We want to hit these conversations dead on for sure. If there was what will round this out, because I think this is so I could literally talk to you all day about the stuff like literally. If there is one thing, one piece of advice, one suggestion that you would leave for salon owners that are navigating, leading a team of people today. What would that piece of advice or suggestion be? I would say first thing that immediately came to mind, does a quote from Bernabé Brown, which is clear is kind and unclear is unkind. And the reason why I bring that up is because a lot of salon owners are millennials and we were raised on sugarcoating everything to you're like you're saying it without saying it. We were taught to sandwich compliment. A lot of juxtaposed relate to this one too. It's a sandwich compliment. So you compliment on each side and you say the thing in the middle kind of. So you're like you're so amazing. You're so kind. You're so incredible. It's really hard for the team whenever you are running late every single day. But it's not that serious and we just absolutely love you and you're just so incredible. It's very confusing. It's literally like a stab in the gut. If people aren't good at processing what you're saying, which a lot of creatives are sometimes they'll walk away from the conversation being like wait, what did he just say to me? And so when I say clear is kind say it nicely. Say it very crystal clear on what the expectations are because when people are too nice, it's one of my favorite acronyms of nicest NICE or not interested to care enough. So in ICE, and that means that you're not saying the thing that needs to be said and then the cancer spreads potentially and we just we can't have that happen. It's too volatile in our industry specifically. So just be be kind but say the thing because once you do it, then your anxiety drops because you're not replaying it in your head over and over again. There's so many reasons why you need to say the thing. But that's it. That's that's the biggest piece of advice. Say the thing and say it nicely. And say it clearly, you know clear clear is kind and I lie. J.O.E says that too clear is kind and I think it's so true. And I think because we work in such close proximity with our people that it can be very hard to say something that is uncomfortable because we work next to them all day. We're blow dry in hair and doing haircuts next to these people. And my husband and would always say he works in corporate America and he always says he's like, I don't understand your business. Like I don't understand how you guys function and operate, you know, because he's been with me and watching me lead my team in my salon when I had my salon. And how I led conversations or how, you know, I was more nurturing and coaching and he's like, I don't get this. Like I'm like, you don't understand how this business is emotional. We're dealing with real people every single day, not just behind the chair, but our stylist too, who are also dealing with real things every single day. Yeah. I'm not the person that's going to come down hard and turn a blind eye if they have something going on at home, right? I have to be a compassionate in that way. And I said, you're never going to understand. So don't, you know, so don't even try. But with that compassion on the other side of that is clarity. Yeah. It is making sure that yes, I understand what's going on. But I am clear and direct in my approach to the standard and the values of our business. Yeah. But the gag of it all is like corporate America. If they increase their emotional intelligence and their approach, they would actually increase productivity. And the conversation is just not happening in corporate America. But like we do people well, obviously, working people and just do people well and be nice. And for some reason, if there's a tech bro listening, maybe like figure out what's going on in someone's life before you come down on them because they weren't plus 10 list loss quarter, you know. Yes. It's such a it is such a different world. I hear him talking and he's always been in corporate America. And I hear him talking and I'm like, how does this work? Like I just it doesn't make sense to me. I'm employees working for you. That's right. I'm like, because if I even, I'm in I remember one day I walked in the salon, I was just focused. I was neat. Nothing was going on. I was just focused. And I didn't say hi in the way I normally say hi to everybody. And I came around the corner and I heard our team, it's like me and I just do something wrong. Did any of us do anything to upset him because I was an app my normal, like high level high. And I just said, hey, you know, like whatever good morning, you know, it's just interesting. So I'm like, very sensitive to it. From one way I said, good morning. I can imagine if I said, why are you, you know, up nine points in your course, like I would have no place. >> It's so, it's so, and it's so hands off. It's such a hands off. He's such a hands off leader. And I always tell him, I think you need to be a little bit like you need to coach your peon. He's like, you don't understand. We hire people at a certain level. I'm like, I can't, I'm checked out. You already lost me at that point, you know. But hey, to each their own, right? We have our quirks in our business too, just like corporate America does too. No shade on corporate America, all good, right? But we do things differently and I love that you said we do people well. We do people well. So we're going to actually end on that note because I absolutely love it and I think that it really speaks volumes to you and how you care about people and how you lead people. And it's not about being perfect. It really is just about showing up being yourself and trying to be great, you know, it's not about being perfect for sure. So where can people find you? Where can they reach out to you? Tell us all of the things. Well, you know, thank you to everyone listening, such an honor to be here for this conversation. Thank you, Nina, for having me. Of course. And yeah, just so we can connect on social. My social name is the same everywhere across all platforms at PlayGreetEvans or BlakeGreetEvans.com. And just send me a message if you ever need anything. I'm a big fan of voice. No, back if you ever have any questions. Nice. Awesome. Thank you. You're so kind. Thank you. Thank you so much for tuning in and yeah, we'll definitely keep this conversation going for sure. So I would love that. And so much for tuning into the Make That Money Podcast and I will see you next time.