‘The Odyssey’ Is the Film Event of the Year. Plus, ‘Resident Evil’ and ‘Clayface’ Trailers.

I need support to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRanger.com and joining me in the studio. Now every time his daughter is asked for more food, he says, "Somebody get these beggars out of here!" It's Andy Greenwald. Sometimes when I come in, I can see that you're sitting on one. Let me tell you something. It's been a weird 10, 12 weeks, maybe 12 days, two weeks, because I haven't been able to exercise as much as I would like to because he'd dome in the air on the road, watch him roll cup. And then they took my sweet vegetables away from me. So I've basically been eating like CR's 13-year-old diet. I'm surprised I'm not just taking out full quarts of ocean spray cranberry juice at the fridge. Are you back to the peak days of mac and cheese with crumbled pringles on top? That was, by the way, we're going to talk about regular television before I get into my culinary corner. I'm leaning in. Today we are going to talk a little bit about the Odyssey, joining the other 714 episodes of Analysis so you can get it from the Ringer Podcast Network. We also have some news at the top that we wanted to go through, some trailers, some TV news. And also, we'll do some housekeeping about when we're doing what shows, because I think people are getting annoyed that we haven't finished the agency yet, although I know you're plugging away. Yeah, I know you're plugging away. I'm having a great time. Okay. So thank you. When I was younger, my two staples were either a heavily mayonnaise-based pasta salad that I would make mayonnaise-based, huh? But is it mayonnaise-based, like a hyphen, not mayonnaise-coma-based? No, not like little B. Yeah, yeah. It was okay. Although it was pretty-based. And you made this. Yes. And if you were curious about what it tasted like, I started to develop this recipe when I was studying abroad in Quirk in Ireland. I started this when I was studying under Farron, Adrian, Spain. No. No. It was, "L going to the, whatever the Aztolas in Quirk, Ireland." And it was basically pasta and mayonnaise and canned corn. And it was even the Irish people that I do were like, "Yo, this needs an acid." Wow. Okay. So that was- But it almost went so far beyond fat to umami. You know what I mean? Like, it sort of the mouth feel. Like it coated your whole insides in a protective layer. And, uh, yes. And then Andy, as you mentioned, like for a long time, I was just like, "I'm hungry. I guess I'll just have craft mac and cheese and crushed pringles on it." But there's stuff like, who do we, you know, not to be therapy corner here, but like, who do you blame for this? Now, because in the reason I say this- No, my mother actually, you know, um, was pretty good about- but we had like, I had like a lovely upbringing of culinary delights and- Sure. And both parents cooked and- Really? They didn't bore me like- Did dad cook too? Yeah, he grilled. Yeah. Uh, it took me to McDonald's so he could drink beer. Yes. Which I didn't know was not a thing. But he couldn't drink beers. Well, grilling. Uh, he could. He respected good. He could, okay. Uh, but yeah. I mean, like, I grew up like in a, you know, food groups positive household- Yeah, I mean, I- I think I just left the house, you know, only child, man. Like, it's- It's the only child thing because I also like- we both had working moms who cooked in- I mean, it's amazing. I know. We support them on this podcast, unlike some podcasts. And although I was going to- I was going to make a Chris Nolan joke, but I guess Penelope is, you know, she's- she's practically the- the Queen region. Yeah. She can't cover of it the Atlantic magazine. You know, cover of the Mediterranean magazine. You can have it all. The problem is that you leave home and you show up at college or wherever your next station is in life. Just believing that certain things that are deeply idiosyncratic to your household or specifically like your parents are universal so that when I arrived in- in college and be like- or like later in college when we had our own kitchen and it would be like, ah, time for a night for me. And my mom's staple like- I'll just do me nights for dinner where buttered noodles cooked in canned chicken broth, which is quite salty. And a microwave stofers spinach souffle. Yes. A combo for the Mid-Atlantic palette or something that she called potato chip dip, which was for dinner a bag of ridged potato chips, hers brand of course, and a dip that I believe was just Philadelphia cream cheese ketchup and one onion. You have to also understand. Andy and I grew up in the- in the seat of power of cream cheese, the cradle, the cream cheese. We had to- it was like spam and Hawaii, you have to work it into every day. But it just wound up being a very prevalent thing. Like I thought dipping snipers hard, hard pretzels into cream cheese was- was the honestly the highest ecstasy you could experience in food. Where are snipers pretzels from? Well, uh, well, where are they? John Federman's Pennsylvania. Yeah. Well, yes, of course. Hanover. Yeah, I thought you were trying to trick me into saying like Mitch McConnell's Kentucky or- Although, thoughts and prayers, um, but the problem is now the pendulum is like, I'm alive. Like you just eat in pretzels. When you guys going to finish the agency, um, yes, it takes, um, I just feel like the pendulum is swung too far the other way. We're like, now I have children who are like dead. Have you ever eaten it Burger King? And I was like, my dears, like you are like probably 15% Burger King chicken sandwich. Yeah, exactly. Like just from you. We could trace your line back to the king and you're royalty. You're the children of royalty. That's right. Your hair color may have changed. I wanted to talk to you about a couple of things. You know, a few weeks ago, when we were wrapping up, uh, Widow's Bay, you had also dipped into weapons. The Zach Kregger movie from a couple years ago last year, which was, uh, which was awesome in one of my favorite films of, of last year. And you declared chest out, I'm ready to get scared. I'm ready to be scared again. Or just for the first time in my life, I'm ready to experience it first time through unbridled cinematic fear. Yeah. You didn't put it that way. You actually were like, as long as there's some irony and, and, and some, no, some well-observed emotional beats in the characters before they have their intestines removed through their amounts. Yes. Uh, you just, you declared that you were sort of preparing yourself for more adventurous film and TV going in the world of horror. Now we have a couple of 14 of a podcast time to get adventurous things coming. Uh, we had talked about these two titles earlier when they are teasers came out. Yeah. And now two new films, um, September's resident evil, which, uh, I'm prepared to dedicate my entire life to is coming. And we got a full trailer for that. And then we also got the full trailer for Clayface, which is the, uh, is it the first non-super gunverse DC movie? Yeah. Well, this is the, this would be the third movie. It's the third movie. I mean, it took over. Yeah. Yeah. The end of the year's hour and took over. So, uh, did you get scared? Are you ready? Hmm. Are you ready to, to see what makes noise in the dark? I, well, I think there's two ways to look at this. Like the trailer for Clayface looks, like, looks well done. It looks like they have correctly chosen a lane. Like I don't think there will be like ironic, slow-core, you know, luminars as Jimmy World covers in this one. I don't think it's Jim Gunn House style, which I think is good for the brand, uh, of DC, not necessarily for his own brand. And, uh, he'd 100% looks like a movie I don't want to see. But I don't mean that as like a, because it's scary. Well, it just looks like they are leaning full into, uh, if I say it's Cronen Berghian, that sounds like the Rousseau brother saying that they're doing-- I think you will be drawing a force of people who have pointed that out. I don't think that's necessarily true. Um, it struck me also having some, like, Sam Remy dark man vibes. If it does, I think it would be to its benefit. Yeah. Uh, they have certainly downplayed the humor in that film. If, if there is humor in Clayface, they have sort of downplayed it in the trailers, but I wouldn't be surprised. I think the big thing here is that I believe it is an R rated movie. Yes. You know, it's, it's kind of weird in 2026 with like the access everybody has to so much that PG-13 is still a thing, you know? Like, I, I, I think that I wonder if it is kind of antiquated? Like, they don't check IDs. We were just, I mean, this is going to come up a lot in today's podcast, but my 13-year-old daughter accompanied me to the Odyssey and she was a little worried that she would get it carted. Yeah. So can you go to an R movie if you're with an adult? Yes. Right. As, as my friend Brian's mother learned when she took us to see Basic Instinct and the multiple access. I'm sure no one was checking when we went to go see Menace the Society for the second time. Yeah. It's a good time. Come on in. Yeah. You just put the two in Menace the Society. Um, she was actually very articulately saying that there should be a, another rating in between for like mature teenagers, you know? Um, shockingly my, my friends in the audience just on Chestnut Street did not let my takes on O'Doc. Really, menace the Society. Were you offered? Yeah. One of my worst faux pas ever committed in a movie theater where I'd seen it. And then I did what I do every once in a while. Like where like I see training day or whatever and then I go to every man I know and say we have to go see training day again. And so the original one was metastasis society where like I think I'd seen it with my dad. And then I was like every friend I had in school I was like we gotta go see fucking metastasis society. So we went I think at like a 3.30 or something. Maybe when I saturday to Chestnut Street and Philly. >> And I think the theater is now a CVS. >> And then there's gonna be a part where fucking old dog goes into the fucking thing and he's like yo. And this guy turned around and he goes excuse me. I haven't seen the movie yet. And I didn't talk for two years. >> Did you explain to him the idea, is this your origin story for rewatching films? Like I feel like this is your traumatic Bruce Wayne parents gunning down in the alley now you wanted to own the fear. >> I know you do this for a little bit. >> It's like my enthusiasm for movies is contagious. And not always welcome. >> It's infectious, really. >> Incredible story. >> So Clay face yes but. >> Well, I think there's a couple things about it that I think are worth noting. One is it is a very, very interesting IMDB page because this project began with a guy you are a fan of Mike Flanagan who is sort of the author of horror on television. And he was developing this maybe for TV, maybe for movies wrote the screenplay. >> Yes. >> And then when James Watkins who's directed Black Mirror and a lot of British television came on to direct it. >> He's on horror movies. >> See no evil. >> Right. >> Yeah, speak no evil I think whenever the adaptation of the original like I'm looking up. >> When he came on to do it, he brought. >> Speak no evil, sorry. >> He brought 60 year old Hussein Amani on to rewrite the script and get a credit. And I think we remember him from such things as "Wings of the Dove." >> It does it, you were in the 90s. >> In the 90s, right? >> Yes, right. So I think that's kind of fascinating. >> Yeah. >> And it is just also so deeply English. They filmed this in Liverpool. The two stars, well the stars are Welchman and Naomi Acki and then like Eddie Marzan and my guy David Denchick from "Star City." >> Oh yeah. >> And I guess they were like, is Max Mangela gonna hang out in the UK a little bit longer because he's also in this? Anyway, big picture, I don't, this isn't the type of movie I want to see, but I think that I can see the strategy and I think it makes a lot of sense. Particularly, it's particularly fortunate that this is the next movie after the financial wipeout of "Supergirls" because you need to diversify the portfolio, my brothers. >> Yeah, I will be curious to see whether Clayface has any connective tissue to that side of the DC storytelling? What city is Clayface living in? >> Philly. >> Good guess. >> Liverpool. >> Great guess. I mean, I would say culturally similar. >> Properly, what's that place called? >> Gotham City, dude. >> Oh fuck. Gotham, damn. >> City. >> You wanna talk about the football club there? Like Gotham United, do they have-- >> Yeah, so this is establishing Gotham City in the gunverse and I thought it was interesting that Matt Reeves has an executive producer credit on this movie and I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that he's like the landlord. He keeps keys in his hand for Gotham at the moment, right? >> Yes. >> Is that what that references? >> Wait, is that a wrap line, isn't it? >> Yeah, label me landlord. I keep keys in my hand. >> That's pusher. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's not really rare. >> I think the way you delivered it didn't quite have the nasal cadence that pushered to you. >> Oh, he is a contemporary of us. >> The other movie that I wanted to ask you about is Resident Evil, we watch the teaser. I wouldn't even say that this trailer is that much different than the teaser. The thing I loved most about this trailer is I am fairly confident that what's in the trailer is like the first five minutes of the movie. And that is a brilliant thing to do if you're doing a horror trailer. I hope they don't do another one. I think it's Resident Evil. It's the guy who made barbarian weapons. That should be enough to get you through the door. But having zombie bodies falling from roofs and exploding into blood plumes, that's just what it's all about. >> And from the other side of the aisle, genuinely, this movie looks a lot more interesting to me. Partly because of my very positive experience with weapons. But also like, I mean, you love Austin Abrams, who's the star of this movie. >> It is very talented. >> A lot of it is on him. But I really liked that what we see in the trailer leans into some humanity. Like there's the beginning of it before he wanders into this like video game hellscape. But also has a little bit of lightness and sense of humor about itself in that the trailer, like the hammer of the trailer is Raccoon City, which is the famous infamous name of the town in the video game, which is just like such a classic weird Japanese-English translation. I think a more heavy-handed or serious-minded director might have changed that. >> Change Raccoon City? >> Yes, no, you can't change Raccoon City. >> But this is the one that you're going to-- >> No, it never rings out. Come on, it's Raccoon City. >> I can't wait to hear it. >> But then we get to the Odyssey. He'll be like, actually, sign on the character from the Aeneid. >> No. >> Like it would be incredible what you got pedantic about. >> I only Emily Wilson of Konami Horror Video Games. >> No, I just like that it is, it's a little bit, it's tongue-in-cheek, a little bit. Like, he knows what he's doing. And it just made me think again about something that I'm sure you and Sean have spoken about much more articulately than I can, which is that like, there is a connection for people who know how to do horror with people who know how to do comedy, and I think it has to do with timing, and manipulating audiences' expectation build up and release. >> And they have found the third part of that triangle, which is dudes who used to smoke a pack of camel lights and play Resident Evil. >> Oh, yeah. So, no, I thought that looked really cool. I will, as I promised, I will be sprinkling the show with references to my journey to the IMAX theater, this week with my daughter, and her main concern about seeing the movie wasn't seeing the movie. It was that by seeing in our movie, she's like, I bet there'll be a lot of really inappropriate or horror trailers. And I was like, absolutely not. No one does red band trailers anymore. They aren't going to show it. So, all of the trailers were Resident Evil. It was the movie where Jessica Chastain burns pasta for a child and then becomes a demon. >> I actually have to say, I didn't know. There's some misinformation online about-- >> Stop there. >> About other mommy. >> Okay. >> On the IMDB log line, for at least when I talked about it on big picture, like a week or two ago, the IMDB log line for other mommy suggested that there was a demon living in this house that was flatulent. A flatulent demon lives in this house and that the family has to, like, rid itself of this, I guess, farting demon. That didn't sound right to me, but I repeated it. >> So, you announced this. >> Yeah. >> So, you contributed to this misinformation, man. >> Yeah. >> I insisted and I read it from the internet movie database. >> Wow. >> And so-- >> Did your own research again? >> I think I was wrong about that. >> Yeah. >> I would say so. >> Delightfully so, because I have had the other mommy nightmare. Like when I was a kid, you have the nightmare that you have to choose between two moms and you keep being like, which one of you is my mom and one is like, you have to choose and the other one is insisting. >> And the other one is making potato chip dip out of off-brand cream cheese and you're like, well, that's the tell. >> Baltimore cream cheese. >> What? >> Come on. >> And then you choose the wrong mom. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> I think your dad's out back grilling. He's like, don't worry about it. Your new mom's fine. That was disturbing. >> Yeah. >> And then, perhaps most disturbing of all, was there was a red band trailer for the film, Digger. >> Yes. >> Can't wait to see a rollicking political comedy made by a man who has events no sense of humor across his 20 or 30. >> In reality. >> In reality. >> Yeah, okay. >> Crews likes to laugh. >> Yeah, he chuckles. >> Yeah, he doesn't chug. He braids, throws his head back and commits. >> A couple of other things. >> Okay. >> We smoked a little bit of the Figgy Pack last episode. >> So there's going to be some news about probably the X-Men cast. >> Maybe they might throw a few more actors into Doomsday. >> But he did some interview. Figgy did an interview recently, which Scott -- >> They're doing Spider-Man Press. >> Yeah. And he talked to, I think, a Chinese website, a Chinese news outlet and was like, "It's about other mommy." >> It's like, that demon is not flat. >> No. >> It's about, he was talking about how they have at least the broad strokes of Marvel plans, Marvel Cinematic Universe plans stretching to 2042. >> Right. >> So that would mean somewhere out there, a baby has just been born that might play Cyclops in the third phase of the X-Men babies. >> Yeah. No, 2042 if you're born in 2026. >> Oh, you mean a baby today. >> It's like an 18-year-old, right? >> Sure. >> B? >> Yeah. >> You've done it again. >> Yeah. >> Incredible. >> Yeah. >> So, I thought that this was interesting because I think I've been a little hard on him. >> Is this the Zag? >> It's not A-Zag. >> Did you speak to your constituents? >> But I was thinking about -- I was listening to Midnight Boys and they were arguing back and forth about the Doomsday trailer. And I will say this to his credit. Figgy's credit. He's visual sensibility that he is obviously -- you cannot blame anyone else but him for why these movies look the way they look. And in some ways, I understand because I think that a lot of the stuff in Marvel movies needs to be rendered with CGI. Like I don't think you can -- you can't really do practical effect. >> Well, as Chloe Jow learned. >> Yes. That's true. - That's right. - But you add up a lot of the curve balls that have been thrown their way between the insistence that they pump Disney Plus full of streaming TV, then the pullback from that, COVID and the strikes. And the tragic passing of Chadwick Boseman as Black Panther and the left turn they had to make after Jonathan Majors to their, became unemployable to their mind and Hollywood at large it seems. They have had to adjust a lot of these things. Now I don't always, obviously I don't, but I guess like when I was listening to Van and Charles and Joni and Steve, I was like, you know what? This has been a tough like last couple of years. And so maybe that has something to do with Why Doomsday is like we have to like kind of clear the decks, which is now sort of what he is leading with as the headline of, he's like, these movies will set us up for the next generation of Marvel movies. - Yeah, I mean, I think you touched on this a little bit last week like I, the negativity and concern that I feel for Doomsday coming off of that bleak looking trailer has nothing to say about my optimism for starting clean slate with a good cast of the X-Men with a good director in Jake Shryer and Sunny, from who's done beef and Joanna Collo. - It's like the Thunderbolt's crew, yeah. - I think that's exciting. And I think it could be a good movie. I mean, I, you know, I saw you say that you don't remember where you were during Fantastic Four, you were traveling and you were home. I like that movie. I don't think it necessarily works as a, I don't think it's a great work of art. I don't think it's necessarily like the most thrilling building block to what's coming out later this year, but I liked it and I think they understood, he hasn't lost his ability to understand at their root what's interesting and compelling about a lot of these characters. - Do you think that part of the problem with some of the phones that have come out and I'm talking specifically about FF, which, you know, I think you enjoyed the specificity of like the idea of this kind of retro futuristic stuff in the family, but that's a movie where, I mean, honestly, like it does seem like Fantastic Four is a little bit of, it's got a little bit of a hex on it, like over the years, you know, as they, it's a tough one. - Yeah, and it's, it's one of those things where we're like, this has so much name recognition, why aren't people coming to this movie? But I wonder whether it was a little stuck between stations, which a lot of these films recently have been, where you can't really confidently push an entire phase or cinematic universe forward 'cause you're not entirely sure how to get where you ultimately wanna go, which is X-Men. - Yeah, and it's, they learned with Supergirl, like you can't just count on each step you take being sturdy. - Yes, and then on the other hand, because you still have to make some gestures towards that, you can't just have like, it's own, it can't be Ant-Man, you know what I mean? Where it's like, we're gonna have fun and do a caper movie. You know, you have to build up all this, like meet, meet these people and understand what they've accomplished, what's their, what's their new kind of object, object, did they have to overcome? And then when does that leave not only them, but a dozen other characters? So, I have sympathy for 'cause I just don't think anyone's ever really tried to do this before in a history of movies. - Well, they've never done an either direction. What was incredibly successful and ultimately exhilarating was when they started making the Marvel movies as Marvel Studios that led to the Avengers, they wanted to get there, but they were not sure that they would and they understood that each step they took would have to be taken with great care and make a case for itself on its own in case they had to rip up the playbook and change their minds. And there were even early missteps, quote unquote, but like you mentioned Ant-Man, like the origin of Ant-Man is interesting because that was Edgar Wright coming in for a meeting and being like, I wanna do something crazy and then being like, we love it, go. And then realizing actually this thing that we're very delicately trying to build doesn't have the ability to do that. We have to bring it closer to the house style. We have to make it a little bit more in line with everything else. It's not gun is doing something different by putting clay face into this so early, I think. What was incredible about the Marvel run is that then they did it and then they were stuck in a completely new, unique circumstance which was how do we do it again? And everything that came out after Endgame was building towards another Avengers event movie no matter what and you could feel it. You could feel it in the pressure placed on each one on the greater impact of the missteps and then how do you, I mean, it just depends what side you're looking at it on. If you're looking at it from a like corporate and creative management, getting this movie into theaters this year with Robert Downey Jr. with the Russo Brothers with all this cast returning is a remarkable feat since they were, had to go zero to 60 with it, right? I mean, they didn't. - Sincerely hard. - It's wild in the weeks since that trailer dropped or a few days now since that trailer dropped seeing how many people are posting the Infinity War trailer and being like, goddamn, we used to be a society. - For sure. - And it's true. - And some of that they're reacting to is how those characters felt and I think that it's also with hindsight like that we go back and say like this. I mean, yes, those two films felt like such huge events but I think that the minute boys really touched on this where it's like the relationship we had to those characters was far deeper and well curated over the course of the first few phases of Marvel movies which also had their missteps. We forget that we had Thor Dark World and we had a Black Widow movie that went into the abyss and- - But the charm of Endgame was that it made Dark World incredibly important. - Yes. - And- - I guess Black Widow came after Avengers, right? - Yes, but I think to me, it's what you said, it's like do you have an organic relationship with actors and roles that build over time to you're excited to see them again? Or do you have this forced artificiality nostalgia that all of the multi-versal movies essentially have become whether you're wink-winking at how silly it is that Chris Evans is playing Johnny Storm or you are somehow building a major plank of your billion dollar hopeful movie rocket ship on the imagined fucking Mandela effect emotion of Channing Tatum playing Gambit which I insist on reminding our audience. Never fucking happen. - Never actually happen. - The movie never happened and him doing that in Deadpool was a kind of another one of these wink-wink jokes of how fun it is to play with how much we know about these movies even beyond the movies themselves. But now it was supposed to be some sort of emotional crescendo moment in the trailer that he's fighting Shang-Chi and I'm like we don't know this person and we don't care. Do you know this term? I love this in the, that I've, the idea of a glup shitto. - I don't know this term at all, is this a- - This is a term that has been coined to make fun of people who are like really obsessing over the minutia of Star Wars characters. Like what is this character's name? If you're a real fan, they're like ah, they brought back glup shitto. And I think that Channing Tatum's Gambit is the ultimate glup shitto of like there are, you know, dozens of people doing the fucking Leo de Caprio meme who he's doing it. But also Gambit himself is such like a 90s kid coded, like that was the coolest thing ever when there was a Cajun guy wearing body armor who threw flaming cards at people. - Yeah. - And then I would just like turn the page of the comic and take another spoonful of your fucking pasta salad, mayonnaise smeared pages. And like that's cool, but like we're adults now, you know? So like I think all this is to say that the idea of rushing to the multiplex to see something that is designed to clear the decks does not feel good. Like I think that there is some rebellion against that. In addition to the one that you articulated very well and Sean did as well and Amanda did as well, which is like we just saw what ambition can look like when married to some version of reality. - Yeah. And James Hibberd wrote a really cool piece in the Hollywood Reporter that identified that people want to feel like maybe the thing they're seeing on screen feels real and that there's like a pivot away from it. I don't mind if everything in this was pre-vis rendered, you know, it has nothing to do with Avatar and like that's a different kind of level I think of marrying technology with filmmaking regardless of how I feel about it. Like it's obviously a huge achievement. But I think that he, you know, when you hear about Nolan using mirrors so that actors can still feel like they're having an intimate scene when there's massive IMAX cameras blocking their eye lines and the actors being like it was such a genius using fucking mirrors. It's like, well, like it's so old Hollywood to do something like that that when you see, and you know, this might be Alan Cumming being cheeky saying like, I don't know who I was speaking to or what I was talking about or who else is in the room with me when I'm speaking. And you see these scenes in the trailer, which again, to the credit, I give Resident Evil like the stuff that's in the trailer for Doomsday might happen in the first 15 minutes of Doomsday and all those people die. - Well, it might not be in it. - Or they get incurred out of, you know. - Yeah, and I think there's like understood things that will probably most likely be in this movie. Like Deadpool, like multiple Spider-Man. Like they're not giving all that away. But, but, It's weird how much, we're being held prisoner by this. Like the most mocked still from the trailer is just this awful blocking negative space room of ceiless standing around. And people have frozen that frame and pointed out the giant doom-shaped hole in the middle because they don't wanna give the plot away that he's most likely, if it's anything like some of the Hickman comics, when he's introduced, he's like, I am going to save reality, and I need your help as opposed to then I am also evil or whatever. - Yes. - And I wanna, we will talk more about the Odyssey in a moment, I'm sure, but like absolutely two of my favorite, favorite scenes in the movie were examples of old-fashioned artistry and restraint which are just out of fashion and certainly hard to argue for if you are not one of the few directors who can put butts in seats, but like the Cersei transformation scene is theatrical. And it's physical and it's interesting and the way that the camera moves contributes to what we see and what we don't see in ways that you understand that it's quote unquote artificial, but it feels organic because someone's making the decision to move the camera and show that's a human body, oh, now it's not. And the other one that I love and we'll talk more about the scene in a moment, I bet. But the siren scene is one of the best moments in the film for any number of reasons, but one of the things that I've been thinking about ever since I saw it was, you just get a glimpse. There's just some figures on the rocks. - Yeah, well, it's actually got a sense of perspective 'cause you're rooted in Odysseus's experience. We can talk about it. - And it's more powerful because we don't have to see it. - Right, it's fine. - One last thing, and this dovetails with us kind of finally figuring out, when do you want to do season two of the agency wrap up? Would you like to do it Monday? Or would you like to do it next Thursday? - Have you finished the season? - I have got three episodes left. - This has been incredibly hard to talk about because the momentum of the season builds really, really well. And when we did our top 10s of the year so far, I think we both had it low on our list because we hadn't finished it, I think it is-- - We also have a consciousness of how it will probably-- - Yes, we know a lot of the things. - But as the season has gone on, it has gotten stronger in its, I think in its pacing, in its cumulative storytelling, and then also just like the creators understanding of what they've got. Like there were a lot of moments in season one where because of the necessity of like turning this plot that it hadn't really found its legs in terms of like inter-office dynamics or like how are we gonna play these smaller scenes that can be invented, and they're feeling themselves in this season. - Sure. - In a way that is like really, really engaging. We could do either, Dan. - I think we should do-- - I've crossed the halfway point, I'm rolling. - I think we should do Monday if you can, just because I think that would be a good podcast. My goal is to do a good podcast. - Yeah. - Have I let on otherwise? - No, I think we should lead with Joy. That's what we should do in 20s, 20s, 16s. - And I do think we need to talk about it sooner rather than later because as you're about to mention, I don't feel bullish about the future of the show, and I wish I could. - Well, it's interesting that you should say that because I would like to talk to you about the Taylor Sheridaning of Jez Butterworth. Jez Butterworth for people who do not know, is an accomplished British playwright. - Yes. - And a screenwriter has worked on his huge, his sort of big, big play that he did that is totally an awards magnet was Jerusalem with Mark Ryland's. - Oh, his play of his theater, yeah. Screenwriting wise, I think he's done-- - He's done some big stuff. - A lot of stuff, but like, did he do any bonds? - Yes, Spectre. Edge of Tomorrow is him. - That's right. Black Mass, and then he works with Mangold a lot. He did Ford V for Ari, and we don't talk about this, but the last Indiana Jones movie. - I mean, he wrote-- - Of the problems with that, probably. We're not all together script-based, you know? - He is also the writer of the Beatles Cinematic Event. - Oh, the Four Beatles movies. - Okay, so obviously somebody who is prolific, which helps, because he has signed up to do another show for Paramount Plus, also from 101 Studios, which is the studio behind Sheridan's stuff, also most of it was on Paramount Plus. - Do we establish that with his brother, he writes "Monday" and "The Agents"? - That's what I was getting to. Yeah, so he's now season two of "Monday" and is coming, imminently, they had a trailer come out. That's obviously been a news, 'cause of his Tom Hardy honor off the show if they do a third season. The agency, we're gonna be talking about on Monday, we love to make a commitment to make the agency. Seems like you should say, we think this will be a grower, and people will buy the fourth season, be like, this is my favorite show, which is kind of how Bibero worked, but so far no word on whether or not the agency has been renewed for season three, which honestly is a bummer and has dampened my like, maybe relentless spirit to finish in a timely manner. Although if it was a week to week show, I think I'd be still on time. - Yeah. - Now he's gonna do another show. - Why not? - Called Laird, L-A-I-R-D, starring Kenneth Branagh, and it sounds an awful, awful lot like Scottish Yellowstone. It is, the log line is a proud Scottish family man, standing up to an American billionaire who wants to buy a Scottish land, which I think is very funny, given paramounts sort of precarious position with the Warner Brothers deal, and the Department of Justice that day. - They're diversifying their portfolio. - Or making a show that kind of sounds like when Trump came and bought a bunch of golf courses. - Listen, two things. One, you gotta prepare for after the midterms. - We don't know for sure that the billionaire isn't the good guy in this show. - That's my next point. My next point is like, what if local hero is actually about how it's better to turn things into golf courses? - Better to stand on the way of progress and good golf. But this was largely like the thrust of Yellowstone, where you take an incredible natural environment. And in this case, the Scottish Highlands, I imagine. And you put a major star, Branna Costner, and you build like a drama around his, trying to save his family and his land. It's a very interesting kind of, I can't just say where I want to start with. First of all, it's very interesting that they're like, making new Sheridan's, you know? - Without him. - Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't even be surprised if he gets a piece of 101 Studios shows. But I thought it was interesting that as he is going to peacock, as he is doing the Call of Duty movie, and, you know, I think lioness is coming back in a week or two. - Don't act like you don't know. - Yeah. - Who among us? - Well, now the enemy is within. - You've got an I-Kell alert. - It's interesting that they're looking and recruiting and fostering and scouting like other people. But what I want to know is like, how do you write this many episodes of television? - I mean, I don't know. There are people who are super prolific. It's almost hard to interrogate this stuff without a like running a foul of like writer's guild, illicit shenanigans, you know, or like accusing people of that. - Well, it's worth noting that in England, it's not uncommon for the creator of a show to also write every episode. - Yes, I would also say that like in a world in which David E. Kelly did what he did for all of the 90s and 2000s, like-- - And Sorkin, although-- - Sorkin used external, I mean, we can't blame people. - He was motivated. - He was motivated. He found things that helped. - As the TSA found. - As the TSA found. They found a lot of things. But yes, to your other point about like the British model, like until recently, the British model was the creator was also, didn't really have the term showrunner with had the term lead writer or head writer. And a writer's room, such as they existed, would be the lead writer calling his or her mates who they used to do theater together in for like a week. And they would sit around. And they would-- - Have a session. - Have a session. You know, get a bag out, bag is Tesco of some breakfast sandwiches. And I think it's get a bag in, actually. So I'm looking-- (laughing) - Are you doing my Tesco or cocaine? - Well, I was trying to do, trying to bridge the gap of some of British people's greatest passions, you know. And then they would contribute for a week, but that all of the episodes would be credited to the person who then took those ideas and consolidated them and wrote the scripts. - I see. - The American model is becoming more prevalent there, especially as more American productions are based there. But anyway, I don't know why I'm trying to like explain the butter words. I mean, they also, they're the brother words and maybe they just worked super well together. - They might just be like, we don't look at Twitter, we just write. - That's so sick. (laughing) Twitter's been really good for like five weeks. - There's been a lot of good jokes in there. - Yeah. - Anyway, but the other, I think the other piece of it that I find interesting is, well, one, I'm just can brand out do the accent. I mean, I'm not putting anything past him. He is Northern Irish drivers. - I mean, they're playing Roman Abramovich for like 12 years, it feels like. So I'll be curious to see how he adjusts the sky. - I think he's probably up to it. - Very good, yeah. - But the other thing though is I do think it's interesting to call it, you can call it Sheridan Ning or tailoring, but Paramount, the powers that be at Paramount, clearly believe that this model is expandable beyond Taylor's specific purview, but that delivering a 10 episode chunk of something kind of beautiful and soap operatic works for their audience. That is something that they can understand as a brand of, like part of the services brand as opposed to the brand of one. - Yeah. filmmaker. Um, do you think adding a third show to his portfolio bodes well or poorly for the agency's future? The argument for well would be they are making a massive commitment to just better worth. When Taylor shared and started, he did the first season of Yellowstone, I think was 18. Um, by 21, he was doing 1883 and mayor of Kingstown. Yeah. 22 was 1923 Tulsa King, which I think he was on and off of as he was with Lawman Bass Reeves. And then he had another push of like lioness and land man. Yeah. And then 2060 did the Madison and Dutch. And while all this is happening, he is heavily involved with or fully writing other seasons of the aforementioned shows. Butterworth in the last couple of years, agency premieres in the 20, uh, 2024 with 10 episodes of that the following year, Mobland goes up 10 episodes of that I believe he wrote all of those with his brother. And now this year, another 10 episodes of the agency, I think Mobland, I think is coming back this year. So that would be 20 episodes of TV that he has produced this this year. Do you think there's a sign that this is like the agency didn't work, but we believe in you or do you think it's like, Hey, we're just in your business. I think they're in his business. And I think there's nothing in his CV that suggests that he and his brother couldn't do a third season of the agency if they got greenlit, uh, particularly because it is a different job than these others. Um, it is a lot more than like sonography, but they do have to plot outlines of plot. So they can sit down and be like, here's what we have to accomplish. And here's how we so the job becomes dialogue, specificity and making it in the voices of their, you know, slightly evolving characters. Um, I'm I'm very concerned about the future of the agency. But in ways that are incredibly opaque and frustrating and indicative of what TV is these days. Yeah. It's I still cannot fathom how expensive this show is to make and produce, um, the talent on screen, the location shooting on screen and across multiple countries, the producers involved, all the people getting paid for every episode. That's kind of an under reported thing or not as well understood aspect of where the money goes. Yeah. When you see you think that oh, this show must have had its budgets slashed. Not necessarily. Um, if there are upwards of eight executive producers and one of them is named George Clooney, like everybody's getting a taste of everything that gets made. Um, and then it's a question of like, um, return on investment as well. And regime, because this show survived somehow out of, you know, this was going to be a showtime original. And now it's, you know, a binge drop on a random weekend on Paramount Plus. So it's rare for shows to thrive across, um, administrations, let's say, and, and then I think the fact that I clearly from our mentions people are finding the show and loving it. But I do, I don't know if it has inspired what I would call a hot fandom. I don't know. I don't know. I don't. I don't. I think Paramount Plus is also the other streaming service. It for a lot of people who listened to us is like, you know, that there are some who are like, I, you know, enjoy the Taylor shared in content or whatever. There's a lot of people like, I don't have Paramount. And I don't, because I'm not interested in Taylor or that seems to be the main or UFC or whatever else. Beth or whatever else they got it. So I don't know. I, uh, I think he can make it, you know, the agency went up June 21st. They released all 10 episodes. You could make the argument that they are waiting 10 weeks to announce that. There's some idea of like, you know, people watching it in a week to week format or once a week. And we're waiting to get the cumulative number back. Yeah. My guess would be that there has been a lot of action behind the scenes trying to sell that's a future for the show. And whether that means making the case for doing a third season in a different way or budgetarily different. Or if it means, um, the studios actively shopping it to seeing if it would fit better with a different network, I think all of that is possible. It doesn't seem like how often do we talk about that versus how often it happens? It happens very rarely. Yeah. It's very complicated. We'll do agency on Monday. Okay. I'm happy to do it. Let's talk about the Odyssey. Now Andy has already mentioned a couple of of these scenes. Uh, uh, it goes without saying that this is spoilers for the Odyssey. It seems like many of you've seen it already. Seems like it's doing fairly well. We just straw poll. Anybody else in the room is seen it. Kai, Sarah, not Kai. I'm trying to see it in iMacs. Okay. It's a hot ticket. It is a hot ticket. I have tickets to go see it next Friday. I have to say that was cool, like that I am not really, you know, I'm not really a format snob, but I was like, I, if given the opportunity in living in a city that I believe has more iMacs projectors than, than most of the, if not all, um, I vary as you learned too casually, said, I'm just going to go see it tomorrow on the weekday morning. Yes. And like the seven a.m. screenings were sold out. Yes. It's, it's a tough ticket to get. Uh, I went, so I went once at city walk, which is the iMacs 70. And I saw it once on just a, quote, unquote, regular iMacs and, um, it's weird. I think I preferred the second screening possibly because a lot of, I knew where I wanted to lean in and hear a lot of dialogue that I may have missed. You know, there's, there's a scene early on when Penelope and Odysseus are in bed. And talking about like he's going to have to leave. And she's just like, what if we like ran away and what would happen? And yeah, it is crucial to understanding a bunch of, you know, the state of their marriage, the state of Ithaca Agamemnon saying this is about Helen of Troy, but it's in fact, to that trade routes. It's about trade routes. Yeah. So there's a lot of stuff that I picked up dialogue wise the second time around. The screen was also, maybe it's a, it's a totally a personal preference thing. I like to see like the whole screen kind of in my static line of view. Right. Rather than scanning up and down the way you do at city walk 70. I even had that problem sometimes in the center armadone, which is blessedly reopening here in Los Angeles, where you would be kind of panning scanning yourself across the horizontal line. I don't know why we're getting into aspect ratios. Siting. I was very excited for you to see this movie. How did, what did you think? Can we talk aspect ratio? No, I mean, I did, I don't know enough to know the difference. And I also didn't know enough that there are hot spots for sound or not sound, especially like if you're not in a theater personally curated by the Nolan family trust. Yeah. So we were kind of like upper left because those are the seats that were left. Yes. And so we were seated directly underneath. That will blur yours out the speaker, which was very worrisome when you're watching trailers and also like, you know, GG fruit commercials that are not exactly like delicately. And then when the movie starts, it was cool because I was like, wow, they really did a lot of ADR of dudes bathing in the background of the scene or like, wow, the temple of Athena is a busy place. Yes. So there was a lot of that, but it was clearer than I had expected. But again, these theaters, you could have the right format, but there was still like the line of the seats in front of me was doing what people are saying the 35 millimeter print does. So I was losing the bottom of the frame. Anyway, it was, I think it's tough to articulate any strong opinion about Nolan because he is an industry unto himself. And anything that he does at this point, particularly a movie like this, is worthy of consideration. Like, it was such a great experience to go with my daughter who went for three reasons. None of them were IMAX or spending the day with me. They were named Tom Holland, Zendaya and Greek mythology. Oh, I thought maybe our pets got, she likes, she likes him, but she's not like a, a, a twi hard, you know, she doesn't really have the, she likes him in good time, mostly. That's that's like her way in. So it was really great to have the experience and then have the like the long drive home. So you cannot see it nearby. Yeah. To talk about it and then to keep talking about it, like how great an experience is that not just for dads and daughters, but for those of us alive these days who can go share something with people. I think it's the gifts that he gives. Yeah. Is that his films, whether they are espionage puzzle boxes, like tenant or, you know, photorealistic war movies like Dunkirk or space movies or whatever they are, you wind up just like chewing on them for weeks afterwards and wanting to re-see the, to see them again and revisit them immediately because you're like, did I miss something here? Yeah. I wonder how the second act feels once I know where it's going. And there's a lot of like, I think when, you know, sometimes with with his movies, the first run through is just almost like a purely physical experience or a visceral experience where you're like, oh my god, like my hearing is shot. Like I feel like I've been on these mountains and been on these boats and like been thrown against the waves. And now that I can see it, I'm watching like, oh, this is the first time Odysseus act like a prick here in this like little scene, right? And, you know, he obviously had this arrogance or what makes Penelope say that at this moment? And like, you know, obviously then I think, you know, some of the greater themes and the more contemporary themes that Nolan's playing with start to emerge. Did you, did you feel like you were able to like discern like how you liked the movie on like like that was a hell of an experience. - Well, I think. I am not as big of a Nolan head as all other men in their forties who I think they're you be surprised. And I also think that there is like there are no one guys who are like, I'm a dark night guy. There are no one guys who are like, I like memento and prestige. There are no one guys who are like the last three movies are his best. I mean, I think he is a fascinating filmmaker. I find him. So I mean, he doesn't have a funny bone in his body. And I'm him talking about how he really likes McGroober reminds me of Steve Carell talking about women's breasts and 40-year-old virgin. I find his movies, they leave me very cold generally. So I did not, I enjoy the spectacle. I do not feel particularly transported by them, except in some occasions. So you like never forget you're watching a movie is what you're so like, yeah, I found my sort of total inner brain here. I found Oppenheimer really, really compelling because of all of his movies about lost men who have to work all day and only feel slightly bad about it, it is about someone who loses himself in technicality and science for lack of a better word and struggles over that being his version of soul. And that I think is a very autobiographical thing as opposed to like in a different way than Interstellar, which is just about how like, you know, it is hard to work on location sometimes. But I found that really interesting and compelling in Oppenheimer. And also one of the ways that I would eager to continue the conversation is to lower the temperature from, and you don't do this, but like just because he made a movie doesn't mean it's the best movie ever made or the best movie he's ever made. So I think that when you get to think about all these movies in conversation with each other and where his muse is taking him and where his relationship with commerce and the town is taking him is very interesting. All that to say, like I thought that at its heart, this movie was so wildly audacious because it's fucking nuts to be like I'm going to do the epic of ancient Greek battle poetry and make it about modern life in the way that he did. And also it's a Swords and Sandals epic, which is incredibly out of fashion and has a long history on the screen and is often campy, right, or leans in other directions than a typical Nolan movie. That said, I also thought some of this was ludicrous in good ways. I kind of want to know what you thought was ludicrous. I mean, there were just moments when I was watching these actors, some of whom I thought were giving it their game best, but were wildly miscast, speaking like they're in the fucking and 10 Commandments, but then, you know, the music's like, brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr the music's like brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr his North Star for the part was James Woods and Casino, which is such a great pull. And exactly right and fun and funny and more alive in some ways than some of the other. He's also in Pattinson could be very knowingly full of shit and interviews, but he had a very compelling case for why is it antonous? Like, he's like, she should have chosen me. She should have chosen me. Like, I like, he's like, yeah, he has like, I was making the case and he was like, I don't think he had a hard time believing he's a sniveling dickweed in the movie, but he's a fantastic villain. And also, I love. There's so much maintenance going on for like people like who will be like, I can't portray this kind of character. I have to make sure like the ride is always going uphill or whatever. And Pattinson, and possibly Chalamet or my favorite dudes when it comes to just like, I'll, I'll play a piece of shit and Batman, you know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't need to and the movie needed some of that. I think it's some of the other places as well. I thought the, the intention, you didn't like the idiom that it was spoken in or like, maybe the accents, the fact that they chose everybody to sort of like. It's not that I didn't like it. I was like, well because the the macro point I want to make is you can't do this without making some pretty definitive fucking choices. And I like that he made those choices. I didn't personally respond to or vibe with some of the choices. Like, I think I'm continue to be kind of struck by how drab the movie is. Like in terms of the colors and the palette and what it looks like. It doesn't actually feel super Mediterranean. But there was, there's a choice behind that and what he's doing. And I'm like, I find that interesting. So I want to like dig deeper and talk about it. But I didn't like, I wasn't transported by that. You know, the, the, the scenes, the scenes with the suitors just felt like one, like micrometer away from being super campy and silly. And Pattinson was yanking it in one direction. But, you know, the, the, the heaviness of the movie and of the, of the, the journey was pulling in the other direction. So it seemed a little bit in conflict with itself. But like, you know, no Emily Wilson here, like the, the Odyssey itself, like all Greek myths is like about an ancient world in which gods were deeply flawed human actors who are fucking things up all the time. And that's interesting too. And he intentionally didn't do that. Yeah. Which is a absolutely, I mean, he doesn't need me to say this. But I find that a really interesting and compelling choice. For full choice. And, and, and I honestly wonder whether or not it speaks to whether you want to call it spiritual bankruptcy or like pragmatism on the part of contemporary audiences that they would be like probably pushing up against it. If Zeus is around there, like flipping boats over, you know what I mean? Well, or Thor. Yeah. I know it's a different mythology. But the, we were used to seeing gods on screen now. So it was more interesting not to and that to make his ultimate. But they had to make Thor more like Tony Stark for him to be a hugely popular character when he was doing like dark worlds. Like, yes, but people were like, but Hermes is a James Gun character. You know, like, like these, these dudes, but truly, like the first thing Hermes did when he was born was crawl out of a cave, fuck around with Apollo's cows, which is relevant to this conversation. Kill one, take its sinews and make the first liar and just started playing music. And Apollo was like, what the fuck's up with this baby? Yeah. Why did this baby invent music and kill my cows? Like, was there no music before that? Well, not like rock and, you know, fucking Chris Pratt with his Walkman kind of music. I'm trying to like square the circle here. But the other thing that he is so uniquely good at that we almost take it for granted is making cleverness and making the three acts structure even with like asynchronous time, like making it reveal the reason for the story late in the game. It's the prestige idea. Like, it's the basically the late period. And this is the secret. And this is the reason. And what did Einstein say to him in Oppenheim? And in this movie, the idea that the people from the sea were them all along that they broke the world that he's made this movie because it's about the end of one era into another. And then the different ways in which he backed it up like with the completely anachronistic metal armor on the giants. You know, wow, being like, well, like he saw the future. Right. In the future, the world is literally changing. The trees are going around them and stuff to to iron metal. Like, I love that. I love the thinking behind that. But I think that I'm not trying to fight with movies. But I think that my relationship with this movie in particular comes up against that, which is I love the thinking. And then there were moments, though, of absolute transcendence, like hiring the great clown Bill Irwin to be the cyclops and so to physicalize him. And then to linger not just on his monstrosity, but on his humanity and have him weeping in pain. Like, honestly, that dude's life is pretty good. He's just making cheese. And apparently pretty good cheese. You know, in a different world, he just brings it to the market. He can watch the agency at the pace. He pleases. And every Saturday he goes to the green market and Montrose or whatever and like hawks his wares. And, you know, next to the Dubai chocolate lady and like then he comes home to the sheep rolls the rock back. It's fine. Yeah. Each two guys fall asleep. What he doesn't. I love that the soldiers are ambient. Like as soon as he has to sleep. It's like me turning on a movie after 9 p.m. All right. But like, this is the thing about something that is like a worthwhile art. Honestly, it's like, look how I feel very excited talking about it, even though I didn't love it. Do you historically like movies of this scale? I remember seeing Lawrence of Arabia with you in 70 millimeter a couple years ago. And it was you you had like a religious experience. But that also has different qualities. Then I think some I think the closest movie I would argue is is to to Lawrence is more like Dunkirk. Yeah. Well, I think Dunkirk. I mean, this is the I'm this is not my argument, but I saw someone make the the argument that Dunkirk is in many ways his most successful movie because it comes preloaded with emotion and context. Well, Dunkirk is my favorite movie of his. I think my I think the structure and his structural trickery serves the movie because in Dunkirk, everything he's doing is more or less observation. There's incredible set pieces. Obviously, there are things that are happening that are absolutely extraordinary. You know, you essentially feel like a fighter pilot while watching Dunkirk, but you are never brought inside the characters, you know what I mean, like, except for violence and like, you know, there are people but like they have, there's not a star of Dunkirk because you don't have to, because you understand that tick and clock means lives that existed in history and World War II and the specter of Nazism and all that. And you, you arrive with that. Whereas the challenge of these, of the more original movies, and I don't mean to say this lightly is the movie has to do the work, not just of resolving the story or making you feel the tension at the end, it has to introduce you to Dom Cobb and why it's important that he does X or Y or Z thing first and become invested in him in his story. So you mentioned that your daughter was very into Greek mythology and I take it by the casual references to Hermes's liar that you are too. Delayers book of Greek myths is probably the most important book of my life that I gave to my children. So were you a little annoyed that it wasn't or Greek? No, not in like the like you got a cast like a Greek. So my Instagram reels are full of temporary Greece content and Island hopping James Demetri has a great guy. Like it looks lovely. I was, no, I don't care about that in terms of like authenticity or whatever. Do you wish it was more magical and mythological? No, I didn't, no, I didn't feel it at all. In fact, I really, really liked also one of the other like card polls in the at the end, which is that yes, Zendaya is Athena, but really what he's seeing is the crisis and the crimes and the way that they and the idea of Zeus's law being like, you don't know who is a God or who isn't. I thought that was very elegantly done. No one can do that what he's doing. I mean, in terms of taking the most complicated ideas, themes, narrative devices imaginable and making them feel, I mean his movies are effortful, but it does not seem overly complicated, honestly, communicates. Yes. I think that's one of the reasons why in addition to the spectacle and the stars that everyone's going to see the movie because I don't think people are leaving casuals or leaving this movie being confused by things, you know. I think people are going because every couple of years, there's something like this comes along and I remember going backwards to Jurassic Park in my life at least, you know, and perhaps in the 80s of Spielberg movies, but Jurassic was the first time that I was conscious of the fact that like that and Batman where it was like, no, we're all going. You know, and it doesn't even matter if you can't remember the name of Triceratops or you don't know anything about Joker. Like this, this seems to have crossed over into I go to the movies twice a year, but this is going to be one of them kind of a thing. I think also you mentioned the stars and you mentioned. Yeah, I want to talk about that. I think really wonderful promotional effort that's been made by these people because I think despite how hard it is now with like, they're like, make a pizza and hold a puppy and take a lie detector test and all the stuff that like, I think is the necessary for keeping the apparatus going of social media based interview shows or whatever. They are always foregrounding the craft of filmmaking, the importance of how no one made the movie. They are telling like the same anecdotes over and over again with the same amount of gusto. And you can tell that out of profound effect on every one of them. Now if there's somebody there who's just like this one sucked, you know, like I'd love to hear it. But all of the people involved in this movie seem to be like it was really special that I know that this movie is going to last for 50 years, 100 years and people are going to be watching it and they're going to go back and be like, that was fucking incredible. And I think it had a huge thing to do with it. That being said, I was curious about some of your takes on some of the performances in the film. I think I think there's a wild disparity. And I and again, like one of the things that's been fun about this era of star directors is that the company, you know, all great directors have the people they like to work with. Some were pronounced than others, but like seeing that goes so super mainstream with like we, and also it's a it's a win and wing of what actors really work because the overlap between all the big movies of this year is quite striking. I mean, Pattinson's and five movies and days and form four or five movies like it's crazy. But I like his allegiance to actors. I do think that actors love working with them. So I'm not criticizing him again, but there is sometimes I see people. One thing you never see in a like a PTA movie or a West Anderson movie is you don't see people caught out. You know, he casts people because he sees something in them or he knows them so well and he puts them to positions to like surprise and like those guys don't think he's like that because I think his the star often is the storytelling device and the camera and the and the shot and everything. And so I think there were some actors who got panced in this movie in ways that I didn't that just I thought was a bummer. I think I think Tom Holland is really in way over his head. And I find him to be an absolutely charismatic and delightful performer. And it was rough. So second time around with him. Yeah. Was drastically improved. Really? Yes. First of all, you're prepared for the accent. You're prepared for the manner. So you're not like this, this dude get like. Yeah. Like shook or whatever. Like it's also I find it I found that his performance was very consistent with the truth of his character. Yeah. Which is like pretending that he's ready for something that he is completely unprepared. True. Now is that a convenient explanation for maybe a performance that doesn't like have like a ton of emotional resonance. Perhaps he doesn't really get a moment like being strapped in the mast. You know, he doesn't get a moment. Yeah. And he's often paired with people who are not only more seasoned performers, but older characters. So Penelope's experiences and her pain are a little bit more earned than telemicus who's like, I think I'm ready. You think I'm ready. And she's like, you're not fucking ready. I mean, that's the point. So I think that he is not done a lot of favors because he's got to go up against Ann Hathaway, then Bernfall, and then Patins and then Patins and then like Odysseus comes back. But yes, like I understand that it's not everybody's cup of tea. I mean, there were two things that made me laugh out loud in the movie. One was what happens to Cory Hawkins. We don't need to spoil that for people, but it's like that had to be intentionally funny. But the other one was when when Odysseus and Penelope are like, okay, we're leaving. Like make sure to like, you know, don't leave the stove on sun and he's dressed up. You know, like, yes, and it's like, this is not going to go well for Ithaca. Does it go well for Ithaca? I actually don't know the sequel. Maybe a larger Homer expanded universe. Yes, like, I also didn't fully vibe with Ann Hathaway's performance. I didn't fully. I didn't there were there were a lot. I'm sorry to say I have in this podcast, but I thought Bernfall was pretty ridiculous doing the same thing in this movie. I thought some people popped in smaller ways like Samantha Morton is Cersei is awesome. Leguezamo is just I loved I loved because that's showing us someone. I mean, this was in small ways. This is John Leguezamo's digger because turns out he's like 65 and just really, really doesn't look at. Yeah. And I just liked it that was him and there's something about he seemed it seemed like an old movie performance. Like someone in, you know, like Edward G. Robinson and 10 Commandments or something in a way that I was like, this is cool. This is surprising. This is a person I haven't seen before. This is like actor I know seeing him in a different way. I think he also. This is not my favorite Nolan script. You know, like, I think there's two ways of talking at that is it structurally not my favorite. No, I actually quite like the structure. I wish there were more moments of character rather than informational dead drops for a lot of these characters. And I thought Leguezamo and Hamesh Patel did two best jobs of being like, I know I have to mention Zeus's law or talk about, you know, this this thing that's happened and may happen again. But they felt like very real people. And I thought Bernthal did too. I thought Bernthal the second time around. Like when you know the accent is coming and when it's not even accent, he's just doing Bernthal. Like I think I liked the fact that everybody more or less did their voice. And it's honestly, it was really funny. I the second time around, like Damon when he's like, this cheese, it's pretty good. I was like, this is the most Boston just jumped out. I know what I liked that. I the thing at Bernthal, like this is a longer conversation. But like watching him do some of this press. And I'm like, Oh, he just seems like a nice man who also went to a private quicker school. Right. And then as soon as he's on screen every year since I don't know what he just does that. And I would like to see a different shade. Okay. But clearly he's hired for. This is like the most insulted you've ever done. I don't think you're the limit man who went to friends schools. You know, like they should have whatever. Well, I think you could bring a little bit more of the light with it. I don't need them. I don't need an actor to be authentic to his off-screen percent. I'm not saying he needs to do that. I'm saying that there are other other color crayons in the deck. I know what I mean in the pack. Not the light. He's doing more moral light rather than the light within. You know what I'm saying? And surely you all misunderstand that they're both twin flames burning up both ends. The Agamemnon, the Agamemnon piece, you know, but like having that be a safty who you never see, you know, and the idea that it was all- Show me the safty. Yeah. But there was all for- it was all just greed and he was undone by the things he wasn't paying attention to. And I thought that was all just very well woven. Yeah. We mentioned the two scenes that I like. Best I thought the my favorite the one of the just throw another one in there that you didn't mention was the hatey scene Oh, sorry. That's the best thing in the movie. Thank you That's that's what I was building to I thought that was the most and I wonder let's talk about that Was it the best scene in the movie because it was the most otherworldly? I mean, I know there are monsters and other scenes but like I thought that scene was so beautifully conceived it was so haunting and I never wanted it to end and then it ends in an incredible way. Yeah, and the way that he turned that moment into a vehicle for the narrative that he's been telling was Masterful I thought that was an incredible Just it got so much deeper the second time around for me. I didn't notice that you'll want a depot First of all, it's like the first time I don't even know if I noticed that you'll want a devil's in the movie and He's then comes out when Sinan and Agamon are done talking and is like, but you're old the people that you've already lost on this voyage I want to have a word with you and that's what like that's when the army of the dead run after him. I Just thought that was it. I mean the guy fucking went to Iceland to shoot a scene like that's awesome That's what that's what that was. No, it's incredible and he's he's afforded opportunities that other people don't but he makes the most of them What do you think this movie is gonna cost a lot less than doomsday though? I mean like yeah Yeah, I like it's I and I don't know whether actors are taking Discounts for him because they get to be in this got scale. I would say yeah, I'm pretty sure What do you mean? What does that mean? You're right? Like you're not getting you're not getting this end day a starring in a movie She's doing it because she wants to do it. Right. Right, but so let's talk let's talk Damon. Sure I Love watching Matt Damon in movies. I just think he's just like and naturally charismatic actor who is also a movie star and I just it's just it's just such a good use of him because I never really get tired of watching him in movies and you don't See he wears well over the course of this movie sure when it was over and and I was reading more about it I saw Sean talking about this that like it seems pretty clear that he probably went to Christian bail first or that that's it Is that official or we just think that I don't I don't think that that's That's not been said that's not been said. I think Sean and I and man to talked about like who else could have played this part And I think Sean was like bail is the one that nags at me. Yeah, I wondered that as well Do you what what worked for you in the performance and what do you have any? No, I mean physically I thought he captured like He the way he shaped his body I thought it's like perfect for the historical era that they were trying to depict within the reality of the movie Oh, although sorry to bring it full circle to where we started this podcast the man ages 20 years and then straps himself to a Raffed to float home, but that's somehow returns in peak fighting shape. No salads No, no weight training. I mean he I think when you have a physically active lifestyle you can compensate for My brother. He spent seven years munching on opium flowers, but every day. He has to like yes, but beautiful seafood just Don't tempt me with the part of the movie that don't make me say that I wish there was more of that So you think what calypso is really doing is just like a small Sea to plate kind of situation. It reminds me a lot of this place. I went in vise Off of Croatian where you know, it's just like the best the best of the best. They cook it under a bell You know, what embers kind of heating the bell and you were in the best shape of your life, and I was in the best shape in my life. Incredible Damon it's hard to distinguish between Sean spoke about this very particularly the associations you make with Damon Sean any minute, but The sort of baggage you bring with Damon and being like I trust this guy totally. I don't mind if he does five things that put lots of people in danger I don't mind the arrogance of thinking that he can only I can fix it I can defy the gods and figure out so and and and Curtis where everybody else is like no, you really can't you know, yeah, and Again, the end of the calypso sequence The first time around I don't even think I was really processing it and the second time I was like oh He has to give himself over to feet rather than try to conquer it You know, I think that his innate goodness and trustworthiness may have worked against some of the deeper themes of the movie because I was I don't think I'm like I'd like to think that I run towards Moral nuance in storytelling. I'd like to think that You know I I I hydrate I stretch and then I run towards it when he Shoots the extra arrow at the already grievously wounded cyclops and you're like, why did you do that? Yeah, there's people like why did you do that? That was a real prick move and he's like, well you he ate some of my friends Whatever and I have my moral code and you realize that there is a counter narrative Anti-heroic narrative to what he's doing and dragging these people I Was that is the only thing that might make me want to watch the movie again because in the watching the it almost Worked against what I think the casting of him was meant to do which is I trust this guy completely wait Why is he letting everybody down? I think that he Damon is moved way beyond like that's the Martian That's the guy who I just would like love to have a beer with and would trust with my life Like I think Damon is capable of playing Colin in the departed. No, he's a great actor. I'm not questioning his performance I'm just saying that the way you use him because as you guys were talking about like you cast people because of audience's Relationships to them as well and you play towards it or you play against it that I think some of the nuance of what he was doing in his Stubbornness and how his his trick unbroke the world Was for me and my experience watching it was slow developing and not I don't think slow developing in the good way of the like Ah, I think it was more like I don't know how clearly that was communicated. Where is that a half or I was a Princess bride. That's Princess bride, right? Yeah Did you want me to do more? No, but you've done it a bunch now always like and then I'm like, oh, yeah, really crystal it's like the You know what the the you serious about that I kind of had a decoupled from Joe Pesci. Yes in my cousin Vinnie Well, this is the profundity of your commentary is that you can borrow from the greats and then from make it your own all six of the movies I remember seeing I guess where do you want to end? I think the hardest thing about this is it is such a major movie and it's a major event And it's deserving of all this unpacking and conversation and discourse. I wish this is a this is a recurring thing. I wish there were more Movies on this scale of ambition and of intent and of thought. Yeah, so that we could have a spirited conversation about Where movies are on that level right and you worry that like this is While great or at least a great experience that it's like is this a bottle of aquafina in the middle of a desert You love a but wait, you love aquafina. That's why I used to That would be a dream. Oh, and I don't so I'd be like no thanks. Yes, would rather die. No, uh I don't worry. I want to I don't worry about anything. Okay. I just think that I'm sure you that's not the case When it comes to this film Nothing about it gives me pause and I have no reason to concern. So I think it's fascinating. I think it's rich and I think it's rewarding um I I'm not good at dealing with the world as it is Perhaps like Odysseus in the sense that in many ways we're similar Um in the sense that I wish that it was in more active conversation with other big movies this summer It's like this not to take sides, but just to have a more like a a rounder richer conversation as opposed to Everything else is tugged shit and this is exceptional. Well, I think it's been a great year at the movies It's a great movie, but on this fucking scale. Yeah, I think it would most be interesting if it was coming out And then next month's doom was coming out Yeah, but we'll see We'll see how we'll see when we get to the end of the year You know, this is this would be a pretty historic Run for him to to go back to back with films that he's directed with Oscar sweeps were Oscar Juggernaut's his work ethic is unbelievable like if you look at how many movies he's made That's it's it's my favorite thing about him is that there's all these now pockets of his filmography to get lost in Yeah, it's really enjoyable is a mate. So as I didn't I didn't listen to the whole podcast yet like a man It was really having trouble with people who'd like to talk about the prestige. I don't did she has me dog Do you like to do is the procedure favorite? Oh, I love that movie so much. I love that you like bail Since Empire of the Sun. Okay, no, I do like it. No, I there's something about that movie The fact that again, like I like it when The subject matter is also there's subjective and objective like the movie is a trick But it's about a trick and then the monstrousness of the reveal in that movie. I conception is so so so Haunting Yeah, inception too. It's just which is it what's your I don't have a favorite but it's my favorite yeah very easily And then I think my I we just did this but I think it was done Kirk Inception Odyssey tenant or something like that tenant. Yeah, damn. I love tenant. I would say I would say Yeah, Inception, I would say prestige. I would say done Kirk I'm a big batman begins guy. I don't like batman begins very much. I think that's the best of the three Well, that's your favorite Rachel Dawes, right? - Thanks to Kai. - No, what if Rachel Cuscus in that movie? - Thanks to Sarah. We'll be back on Monday for definitely the agency recap. And we'll see Dragon. - Of course. - Of course. I live to serve. - Thanks so much for listening and watching and we'll see you on Monday. (upbeat music)