‘The Odyssey’ Is Massive and Magnificent

This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. It may have been years ago, but I still remember the feeling of unpacking my kids' lunch boxes after school and to find nothing left. As a parent, that's a total win. Boar's Head, maple honey ham, American cheese, maple honey turkey, all-time greats in the school lunch game. It's real quality protein that tastes great. So you can feel that winning feeling all term long. Whether you're doing wraps, sandwiches, or a quick snack box, Boar's Head makes packing school lunches easier. You'll be proud of what you pack. They'll be happy to finish it. Fuel their school day with the premium choice Boar's Head. For lunchtime inspiration, visit boarshead.com back to school or head to your local deli counter. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about a face, a fleet, a war, a man. Today we are diving deep into Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey, the movie mega event that will no doubt be the biggest film of 2026, but will it be the best? We will discuss the scale of this Titanic feat, the adaptation of Homer's epic poem, the performances from one of the most loaded casts in recent movie history, why now for this story, and the fate of Nolan's 13th feature film at the end. But first, we'll talk about some movie news right after this. This episode of The Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. One of the best things about streaming is that you never just pick a title, you pick a feeling. And Prime makes that easy. With great entertainment and fast shipping that brings the moment to life, Prime helps you experience the feeling you're craving. Shows you can't wait for and deliveries you don't wait for, one click away. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime. Okay. You like that improv? That was really good. Give me some props. Give me props. It's called teamwork. Give me props. Teamwork. We made the dream work. Let's talk about some news. There's a lot of news. I think most people who are coming to this episode don't care about the news. They'll tell us about The Odyssey, but some of these things matter to us. The Behemoth trailer was released. This is Tony Gilroy's new film, much discussed on our recent movie auction. And you say what? Well, very little dialogue in this movie. Yes, I noticed that. Which, for a Tony Gilroy movie, I was, I don't, obviously, this is a movie about a musician or several musicians. A cellist, it appears. Gilroy has commissioned a lot of original music from many different composers. So I understand why they wanted to get the score in there. But I do come to Tony Gilroy for dialogue. And so I couldn't tell whether this was just featuring something different about the film or hiding the ball. I realized also that half of this cast is sort of a black licorice cast for me. Oh, no. I know, which I didn't really think through. But once they have Will Arnett at the door, you know, doing wisecracks, I don't know. We'll see. Will Arnett got more dialogue than Pedro Pascal in this teaser trailer. You know, I was, it's Tony Gilroy. I go where Tony Gilroy goes, except he does not go to Venice, but I do. That's fine. That's really interesting about half of the cast being black licorice. I'm excited about this movie. It did, I did think as I was watching it, I wonder how much more I would like this if it was Oscar Isaac instead of Pedro Pascal, because he was originally meant to be cast. But you know what? We'll talk about this movie again in one moment. I play Rocky. This trailer also premiered. This is a biopic of Sylvester Stallone in the moments when he was writing and attempting to be cast in the film Rocky. And our friend Tracy Letts is in this movie. We've been hearing about this movie for, I've been hearing about it from him for well over a year. And you say what? I look forward to seeing it. We saw some of this at CinemaCon and the casting of Sylvester Stallone matters. Great. The movie hangs on that. And it was pretty plausible to me. The actor, yes. Anthony Ippolito, who, you know, I guess most memorably played Al Pacino in the Paramount Plus series, The Offer. And so now he's pivoting from Al Pacino to Sylvester Stallone. I would say different archetypes of Italian-American actors, but I guess they're related. 70s icons. You know, Rocky, never my franchise. We've talked about that before on the pod, but the film looks familiar and a bit like a ham sandwich to me. And sometimes a ham sandwich is delicious. And sometimes I'm like, ham? Couldn't this be chicken? What about turkey? There were a couple old-fashioned movies that we were previewed at CinemaCon that are dated for the Thanksgiving to Christmas corridor. And they seem to feature, you know, white men of a certain age set in the 70s and 80s. And I. Underdogs. And I think they're going to play very well. I get it. Because they understand what the have, and they understand when to play it, which is the holidays. And, you know, will I watch I Play Rocky with my father? Probably. Same for. I'm referencing the. Mr. Irrelevant. Mr. Irrelevant. Starring David Kornsvedt, a.k.a. Superman. Yes. And he plays. A.k.a. the star of Supergirl. Sorry. He plays John Tuggle, who was the last man drafted in, I can't remember what year, maybe 1980. And they're very similar sounding stories. So I think ham sandwich is fine. But, you know, as you said, once a year, you're good with a ham sandwich. Maybe twice a year, Thanksgiving and Christmas. Yeah, I think that's right. It's usually the morning after a holiday, and that's when most people will see these movies. Okay, the Uprising trailer. This is Paul Greengrass's new feature film starring Andrew Garfield. It's going to be an Andrew Garfield fall at the movies. It always is for me. Is it? Yeah. I'm very open and very pro. So this movie is, I guess it's an action film. It's about the Peasants' Revolt in England in 1381, Sure. which I know you were part of. And helped engineer. So having seen, like, what's it like to see yourself on screen? You know, Andrew Garfield, a fellow Leo with an equally beautiful mane of hair. So we appreciate that representation. You know, how many Middle Ages fight sequences do I need to see in my lifetime? I'm not sure. But for those people who are excited about it, this looks pretty good. Paul Greengrass. Accomplished. Very accomplished director. I had him on the show for News of the World during COVID, which is a film that feels like it doesn't exist anymore, but pretty good movie. But we have not spent a ton of time dissecting his filmography. I'm not sure if this film will be a reason to do so. It comes out September 11th. I suspect it will be a part of the fall film festival conversation. And maybe we should have that conversation quickly before we do that. A couple of very fast movie news things. One, the Batman Part II is delayed again to 2028. Okay. So someone on X, the Everything app, pointed out that Christopher Nolan has made like six movies between the time of Matt Reeves making one Batman movie and another Batman movie. Yeah. Not ideal. People work differently. I don't relate. I'm way more type A. I'm way more Christopher Nolan than this. But, you know, some people have an elastic relationship to time, including many Christopher Nolan protagonists. It's true. It's a good point. J.J. Abrams' film, The Great Beyond. Also moved back a year. So there was some shuffling going on for Warner Brothers. That now is opening October of 2027 instead of in November. Apparently, Jack of Spades, the Joel Cohen film, which still does not have a distributor, will not be at the fall film festivals and is probably not coming out until 2027. I have it in the auction. That's not ideal. Yeah, it's not ideal for you. What's going on with Thanksgiving? With films. Yeah. Nobody wants it. Again, I just, I mean, I play Rocky wants it, but that's kind of it. Uh, Hexed is coming out. Okay. The Disney original animated film. Do I fear it? Yeah. I think it's a, it's, I think originals are a tough sell. I think Fokker and Law is going to be the winner. Okay. I think that's the big, I mean, Cliff Booth, depending on if people decide to go see that film in IMAX theaters. But I think Fokker and Law, Fokker and Law feels very similar to me to The Devil Wears Prada 2, where it's like you forget the impact of these films on multiple generations of movie goers. Not movie snobs, just movie goers. Yeah. But it just. It just, it does also seem like it's rich for counter-programming. Mm-hmm. And I, again, I don't understand why Dune and Avengers are on the same day still. I don't understand why everyone keeps clearing things. I mean, something, something weird is happening. My personal obsession is the absence of a big film on December 4th. Okay. This is the one where I'm like, the only movie that's scheduled for December 4th right now is Violent Night 2. Which is the, what if Santa were an action hero movie starring David Harbour? I actually kind of like the original, but it seems like maybe a bigger movie. Should be on that date. I, I don't understand. Uh, also got some news that Clockwork, the new Warner Brothers imprint that is helping to re-release, uh, Ken Russell's The Devils has its second original film coming at some point after Sean Baker's Tiamo. Uh, that's going to be, uh, Mary Bronstein's film Nasty, a reunion with Rose Byrne, and apparently Jenna Ortega is going to be in it. Wonderful. Yeah. Good stuff. Great. Uh, this is exactly what Clockwork should be doing. You know, in the newsletter this week, I wrote about Touchstone Pictures. Which was once an imprint of, uh, the Walt Disney Company. Yeah. And they released movies for grown-ups, um, that were not animated usually. And that, uh, I do think that the studios, as we're in this time of mass conglomeration, should keep developing these, these little sub-branches. Obviously, Universal has Focus. Um, nice to see Clockwork making more movies. Okay, speaking of fall film festivals. Yeah. Got a raft of announcements this morning. This is a very busy time of the year for us. Basically, the first week of September. through November is pretty intense in terms of the number of movies that we're trying to go see. - Exactly. show thinking about the awards races over the you know ensuing three months after that you're going to venice this year i am god willing no it's all i i got my accreditation i almost forgot but what if you get struck by lightning well in that case i won't be there unless the lightning carries me to venice which is i understand one of its properties if you're a shazam i think that is one of its properties uh the opening film announced danny boyle's ink cool pretty good i'm excited yeah i think that's it i so i had arranged my travel plans to be able to be there for opening day which is sometimes a gamble um because the opening night film is not always what were some recent ones the strongest well um la grazia oh and then i wasn't a big fan of that one yeah and then challengers was supposed to open but then it was waylaid by the strikes and so there was another you know i think that the can opening night film festival was not totally memorable that's usually a friend film right made in the french industry sometimes programming waiting for people to show up right so i was maybe going to adjust my schedule but i i will be there in time to see ink which is great yeah it's a biopic of a young rupert murdoch i think is it when he's operating in australia or is it when he moves to london i think it's when he purchases the sun ah interesting i believe so or one of the tabloids so i think it involves his move to the uk and to fleet street so jack o'connell plays murdoch no no no jack o'connell plays a young rupert murdoch young journalist guy pierce yes plays murdoch that's right which is even better honestly and then my girl claire foy huge for you i'm listen really really excited claire foy you want to get a negroni let me know okay we need photo evidence of that if it happens um this is good news for you because you you've been taking some arrows on the venice lineup over the last couple of weeks so i the artificial was not submitted to any film festivals though there were oblique suggestions that maybe it will be the secret film festival so i think it's going to be a good one i think it's at the new york film festival a la marty supreme i i think it's cowardly not to go to venice but that's just me i mean in addition to artificial the social reckoning also is not reshoots because it looks like a disaster which i've been saying since last year like come on i me seeing the social network the social reckoning jet lagged alone in venice is like great comedic value great podcast gold but otherwise that's fine if they need to reshoot it and make it better okay by me the world where the social reckoning gets pushed off its october 9th date after news of those reshoots it is july 16th sure uh yes i mean everything seems very fluid and again i just i don't understand what's going on with the fall schedule uh it seems a little rickety at the moment there was also news that behemoth aforementioned will not be at the venice film festival which is bully for me yeah because then you get it it seems like that means it's a telly ride movie yeah which is pretty exciting um guesses for venice i went down a couple of movies that i just in my gut i'm like i think these movies are gonna go and what i wrote down is cry to heaven tom ford's next film which seems he's been out and about he was at wimbledon um sitting next to anna a lot but just that i mean you know who tom ford is is a man about town but become being more visible just signals to me that the film is coming he's about to make a run um we talked about here comes the flood the upcoming denzel washington robber thriller from netflix recently yeah that seems like a movie that could be there very starry i think so cliff booth it can always happen fincher has taken his films there he likes it yes the killer played there most recently and you saw it there wild horse nine feels like a possibility maybe even a likely um entrant that's martin mcdonough's new movie starring john malkovich and sam rockwell i wrote down florian zeller's bunker which sony pictures classics picked up this is the filmmaker behind the father and the son sure this movie is not called the holy spirit um wasn't a big fan of the father and the son the father was better than the son and i think if the father had not taken away chadwick boseman's uh oscar then we would feel better about it but that was that was just i was on the record before that even happened i'm not really liking the father i thought it was a bit of a manipulative film nevertheless um andrew hayes a long winter also feels like a possibility that also feels like maybe a telluride movie all of us strangers did it play both did it play venice and telluride i can't recall i can't i don't know i don't know i didn't see it in venice okay so um and then maybe prime time the a24 film um starring great pattinson telluride guesses does feel like behemoth is happening it feels like bucking faster the new verner herzog movie starring rooney and kate mara as twin sisters right do everything exactly alike which i'm very intrigued by sure was i guess not rejected from can but rejected from competition okay and so apparently herzog said i'm not playing in director's fortnight i'm fucking verner herzog yeah um especially given what we've seen in the past i'm not playing in we see we saw it canon competition a bit of a curious choice i agree uh maybe jesse eisenberg's the debut that would make a lot of sense maybe the uprising maybe maybe looks a little intense and big but you know ford versus ferrari played there occasionally sort of these like heavily mounted studio movies will play there and then some of the other films that i mentioned that are also eligible yeah they'll do the jumps they'll do the first few days at venice and then you can see bunker or a long winter or um yeah or prime time coming over tiff has also been making a wave of announcements we've just returned from toronto uh sean hater's first movie since um coda won best picture being human which is an apple movie was announced as the opening gala film then a second wave of announcements came today alpha gang with kate blanchett that's the zellner brothers new movie your mother your mother your mother with maher shalali possum tarox uh tarx movie which was going to be the team that was going to make blade then marvel said no to blade and then so they made this movie instead and then a movie love of your life with margaret and herzog and then they made this movie instead and then a movie love of your and patrick schwarzenegger okay directed by rachel morrison okay which is a an amazon mgm release did you know this movie was happening i did not it's coming out in october okay that's also premiering there guesses for tiff uh what do you think of my guesses this is really good and number one makes sense and lines up with what i've heard where it will not be um and it's ben affleck's animals it's good a crowd pleaser yeah plays big it that would be the right match star power there that's a netflix film um if the social reckoning is going to play anywhere i think it's going to be a tiff at this point yeah but is it going to be done i really don't know it's that's this is two months from now uh i play rocky it feels like a major tiff movie real classic crowd pleaser sense and sensibility the new adaptation sure i thought it could happen at telluride i could see that you know focus has played movies there in the past and this feels like ripe for that audience but i don't know this feels like it's going to be a tiff at this point i think it's going to be a tiff at this point i think something maybe i think they will tell us a lot about their confidence in the film based on where it plays telluride or tiff yeah yeah i mean i think it looks very nice i just you know it doesn't apply to me it doesn't apply to you okay um or i don't apply to it okay but you'll see it yeah of course and i'm sure i'll even enjoy it but i just i think it's important to put you know your own warning labels on stuff and that's that's my warning label you know interesting okay it's woven into me the Last bit of news before we get into the Odyssey. Is the Ang Lee Sense and Sensibility available on 4K? What's the physical media status of that film? I certainly own it on Blu-ray. I don't know if there's a 4K. There might be. And not in the Criterion? You know what? Let's look it up right now. Okay. 4K, it's not in the Criterion collection. That's disrespectful. There are other films, there is a 4K available. Oh, but you don't own it. I haven't upgraded. That's called sexism. Well, you know, it's a rolling process of upgrading. Okay. You know, and you can't just do it all at once. It's too expensive. Yeah. So you have to make strategic choices. Sure. You don't have to explain that to me. Yeah. Right. Yeah, exactly. Let's see. When did I buy this film on Blu-ray? Probably, tell me. I don't know. It doesn't matter. New York Film Festival, quickly. Paper Tiger, James Gray's new film coming out. Makes perfect sense. This fall is opening. It's the opening film at New York Film Festival. Yes. So this is a good thing. Seems like the right place to relaunch. That movie. Yeah. It's giving the Irishman premiered at the New York Film Festival. I want to say right before the pandemic. I think that's right. And it's sort of like a, you know, big New York homecoming for everyone. It makes a lot of sense. I agree. The other films you mentioned, The Artificial Idea, which I think holds a lot of water. I wrote down The Basics of Philosophy, which is the name of the new Paul Schrader movie. Sure. What an incredible title that is. The Basics of Philosophy. God, still got it. Yeah. Mike Lee. It was announced has a new film called Tender Loving Care that Bleaker Street is putting out in December. Yeah. That I could see there. I feel like New York is missing one mega title. Mm-hmm. One really noisy movie. I guess maybe Artificial could slot in there. But is there anything that springs to mind? Violent Night 2? What do you think is going to get in there? I mean, is anything else ready? And does anything else want to do a festival circuit? Because, I mean, that's the other interesting part of this is we're guessing with all of the movies left on the table, but increasingly, American films and films that hope to make any sort of money at the box office don't do festivals because it doesn't, they don't feel that it makes sense to put the movie out before general audiences can see it. I mean, it's, you know, one of many consequences of Joker 2. Also, the evil of the rest of our world, but. It's a really good point. Let's put it all at Joker 2's feet. I think that's the right move. Um, you know, I didn't mention Werewolf. I think that's a good example of what you're describing. That's a movie that. doesn't need to open at a festival um it doesn't need pre-release hype i saw um evil dead burn yesterday and i saw the werewolf trailer on a big screen beforehand and i got more excited okay i i it looked really really good on a big screen um dune part three also almost certainly not going to a film festival the film we're about to discuss in in mere moments yes did not play at a film festival and i think there's some questions to be asked about what is the proper utility and future of these enterprises of film festivals their relationship to the awards game yeah is it is it it's a chicken or the egg thing where like is can more powerful now because or is can is are the oscars more international because can is more powerful or is can more powerful because the oscars are more international you know and the way that that body has kind of shifted a little bit you know what i'm saying yeah i mean i i think you're right i think that it's also another consequence just of how movies are shaking out now and you either have your giant blockbuster billion dollar or billion dollar aspirational films where that have no relationship to critics or festivals or you know movie culture they're they're going mass and so there's no reason for them to play at a festival and you or you have really really small indie movies that need the festival as the boost and you have to have a really really small indie movie that needs the festival as the boost and so i think the festivals are still a funnel for the the actually successful small movies that work and are maybe one of the only ways that you keep making those movies i agree um but it's true you know many of our favorite middle of the road for instance michael clayton debuted at uh the venice film festival however many years ago and you don't much like you just don't see movies for grown-ups and middle road movies that festival part of the reason why we don't yeah they don't so much noise about behemoth yeah i'm like this feels a little bit like the venice film festival is like a quasar like i don't you know we don't ever hear about movies like this and of course like you're citing tony gilroy it took tony or 20 more years to come back to do a movie like this he had made other movies in between but one of them was a fizzy rom-com and one of them was a jason bourne movie and then he made television yeah so so i don't know whether the the festivals can subside at the with the goals that they've said is just being like a life support for small american film but on the flip side they do serve as a way for people to be able to be able to be able to be able to as curation for international film and as the oscars and like and you know as neon grows and is getting more aggressive and distributing international film um in the u.s like maybe that works that's an interesting really interesting point that we probably should circle back to when we get to the end of the year which is sort of like neon on 824 making this bid to be mid-majors and as they're making that bid do they need festivals as much as they used to right to get to create awareness for their movies when they're casting in their movies suddenly it's a different mentality i mean they'll obviously always have these kind of broad base of different types of films at different budgets but once those then you're like then it's just like sony pictures classics and a couple of other smaller american distributors and then we're much more reliant on the international fair but we'll talk about it more as the the year goes on um let's let's have a strong pivot it's time christopher nolan's 13th movie the odyssey i'm gonna give the listeners at home a brief recap of the film the odyssey which is based on homer's the odyssey here we go should we just say right now spoilers spoilers spoilers if you don't want the odyssey a 3 000 year old poem and or christopher nolan's odyssey spoiled for you turn this off right now that's right the odyssey follows odysseus the legendary greek king of ithaca on his long and perilous journey home following the trojan war chronicling his encounters with mythical beings such as the sirens and the nymph calypso while attempting to reunite with his wife penelope so before we discuss our feelings about the film i thought it'd be useful to talk about nolan's history with this story so many years ago 2004 nolan was attached to direct the film troy this is fairly early on in his movie career he'd only made two movies with hollywood at this point he had not yet made a batman film and that movie is the last movie that i can think of that tries to do what this movie tries to do there have been other swords and sandals epics there have been other um big stage stories you know zack snyder's 300 springs to mind as an example of a movie like this but that film which nolan felt at the time he was maybe not quite ready to take on eventually became a wolfgang peterson project and wolfgang peterson interestingly moved off of the batman versus superman movie that he was developing and christopher nolan moved in to direct batman begins yeah which is a film i think that's a decision this is a turning point in hollywood history that i think radically alters where we are right now now troy was a pretty big hit and a tnt classic it certainly is i think it's a pretty well-liked movie it's not bad um okay it i mean eric bonner is the star so he is the star but it has a lot of nice meaty roles for folks like brian cox and sean bean and brendan gleason and a lot of actors who i like seeing in movies like that and brad pitt memorably brad pitt orlando bloom diane krueger um and so this is a big twist of fate that and it also indicates that nolan we know nolan always wanted to make a movie like this and so i find the timing of this movie very interesting because he's coming off of perhaps the most unbelievable success of his career in oppenheimer not because of what the movie is per se but because of how successful it was insofar as it made one billion dollars and it won virtually every academy award that it was up for and cemented his status as the the leader i mean he is the president of the dga but currently but he is also just the statesman of this generation of filmmakers and i think he's pretty clearly recognized now as the director of this century that he is the person who has defined what movie going is with his scale and execution the other thing about this is that this movie has never been made in a movie like this it's never been made in a movie like this and it's so interesting to me that we've been talking all year about how it's like out with the old and in with the new and there's nothing older than the odyssey but there's no movie the odyssey there are parts of the odyssey that have been told in movies or there have been a lot of like influences and if you look at harryhausen movies you can see some of the monsters and figures even 2024 is the return is sort of like the back half of the odyssey but the odyssey in full there's no movie and and nolan describes it as an odd gap in movie history so what an amazing opportunity to leverage this 25 year history of him thinking about doing a big swords and sandals movie and he steps up to the plate to do this film it's a 250 million dollar production i ask you now what did you think of the odyssey well you you set me up beautifully with that christopher nolan context because i do think that this is a perfect christopher nolan movie um and the perfect christopher nolan movie now does that mean that it is perfect no and does it mean that it's the best christopher nolan movie i don't know i'm not sure yet i'm not sure yet either we're going to talk about that on monday i think it you know pays well to sit with these things also you know that's what we do on this podcast is reassess over and over but um i felt sort of stupid sitting there watching it when i realized that christopher nolan has just been making the odyssey for 20 years um and the first shot of inception is leonardo dicaprio on a beach washed up on a beach looking longingly at the dream and then a godlike figure comes in and intervenes with him i mean this is quite textually a reference to the odyssey but in everything that he's doing you know thematically um a man a hero a burdened genius trying to get back to his family with um sort of opaque wife characters throughout the land the it's the blueprint is there and has been there the whole time i do also think that this movie is an amazing superhero movie and i mean that as a compliment um i had the experience of watching this movie and seeing things that i had only read about done um spectacularly and made real and i sort of understand what it means then to people who have always read comic books to to see superman or in nolan's case batman um finally see their dreams realized and dreams realized so well so i think it's a really good movie and i think it's a really good movie and i it really does work as a as a summation of nolan's career and you know i feel like we've had a lot of projects in the last few years where directors have been waiting forever and ever to make this movie um or you know it's their dream project and it doesn't always live up to the expectations or to their own dreams and on an execution level i think he nails this out of the park ambition scale star power you know everything below the line he has like a crew of close collaborators at this point it looks beautiful um i thought it was thrilling i agree yeah it's a pretty astounding work of art and it works in both ways i think one of the things that distinguishes him from almost any other filmmaker and really no matter how i feel about him personally over the years in each individual movie is his movies operate very interestingly as both these kind of smooth brained roller coaster rides and also these really deep passionate sincere, thematic adventures. there's no deeper more sincere thematic adventure than the odyssey and so it's fitting i couldn't find much evidence of him saying i want to make the odyssey over the years you know a lot of those directors that you're talking about would say well it's been my life's journey to get to this point to make this kind of film and he's just kind of always been making this kind of film as you very smartly point out but what he is able to build into the movie does feel like something that could only happen for a filmmaker with 30 years of filmmaking under their belt and you if you read about the production of the film you can see that the only person who seems to have the utmost confidence that it's all going to go according to plan is christopher noel and the actors certainly are like what is this um and it's really it's it's a fun movie to read about um not nearly as much as it is to watch but it's so such an awe-inspiring production and we're in a time when most people who would try to make a movie like this would do so many things with visual effects and computer-generated imagery and he goes so far out of his way to avoid that wherever he can and still without sacrificing the grandeur that is necessary to tell this story and so there are a dozen moments in the movie where i was like this is breathtaking you know this is just amazing that he makes me feel this way and exciting and you know you can see touches or inspiration from like other filmmakers it really does feel omnivorous in this wonderful way in a synthesis of everything that we've seen in the movies both nolan's and others and i think it's a really good um and it it just is also a place it is so it is a blockbuster like you are going you know it's based on an epic poem and i think there's been so much hand-wringing about the accessibility of this from a from a text perspective or we all remember being bored out of our minds in high school reading this do they even teach it anymore people in the booth they do yeah okay but um that's good to hear i'm glad for your generation i read it in full in high school in fact going back to it i remember i can feel the memory though i'm excited to talk about the different translations of it um and and i guess all of that's true but it is just they're just also there are monsters there are sex scenes there is a lot of horror in this in a really accomplished way the score bangs it is very funny every time another great character actor shows up and you're like oh it's this person it really it spectacle is not a bad word even though it's sometimes used in a dismissive way this is the this is hefty spectacle this is spectacle with with weight one thing i felt watching the movie for the first time was that because of what you're describing this feeling that many people who will sit down to watch the movie will know the beats and so i do think that there is a moment in the in the second act where it feels like he is kind of moving through the story fairly quickly and we're memorable moments we're hitting syl and charybdis we're hitting teresias's prophecy we're hitting the sirens sure and it's coming at this kind of breakneck pace in a way where it felt a little bit like he was checking boxes to me now yeah it's hard to make a movie of this scope a story of this scope in under three hours and he accomplishes that but the movie pays off that episodic nature so profoundly in the final 40 minutes or so of the movie and i have been very critical of nolan's ability to end movies at times and you were very critical of oppenheimer's ending yes and this is the exact opposite to me this is i think this is the most satisfying ending of a movie that he's made i completely agree with you know there's i would like to talk about the final three lines of the movie you know and and in a way they're more perfect because christopher nolan stays christopher nolan and completely lands the plane i found the ending so moving and um so revelatory and i think it's a really good movie and i think it's a really revelatory and you know then he does something else and i was like well that's great you know it's good to know that we're still with the same guy who can't quite help himself from you know jabbing it in your eye a little bit more what he wants to say which may be a movie of this scale and size both in terms of its box office ambitions and its text um requires i felt the shortcuts too you know i i felt the oh okay we we did calypso like very very quickly but it was to then go back and and read the text and i did the emily wilson translation which i can't say enough good things about uh and that was another revelation just of of reading a familiar story in a different in a different way through a different person's eyes and interpretation um but i was surprised by how brief they are in the poem itself and um that there is something about what the what the poem sees as the most important of the stories you know the pacing of the poem that like actually is pretty accurately reflected in parts of the film which you didn't need to do you know i i firmly believe that the more liberties and adaptation takes the better the adaptation is i think there's an important point to be made about that too because we'll talk about some of the differences from the texts that we've looked at um and whether or not we've lost something by changing certain things in the movie which i think is essential to do to make it work as a movie but you know this is also a story that was told in the oral tradition and the way that the story became formed through the oral tradition is that parts of the story that were not really working with crowds around fires or in towns would be excised yeah and so this is not the whole scale truthful representation of a man named odysseus who went on the journey it's a story that was sort of crowdsourced and eventually was kind of chiseled down and put down on paper but it's not this irrefutable you know locked piece of material it is actually meant to be interpreted and to be re-understood over time and i really i really really appreciate what he did with it and the thing that he did with it to me has less to do with what he changed or didn't change in the script but how he tells the story and all of christopher nolan's films are about time and the loss of time and trying to desperately accomplish something before time runs out i just sat down to look at following again last night and even following this very first movie which is only 69 minutes is about that feeling but this movie is in this neat little package with tenet and oppenheimer and dunkirk to some extent but those these three films all have the same editor jennifer lane and the two of them together have i would say evolved his filmmaking style where this film has such an intense flash cutting style and the camera very rarely holds on an image for a long time and so i think that's a really important part of the story is that he uses it for more than 15 seconds at a time and that sounds like it would be a chaotic michael bay commercial nightmare but in fact it is he uses uses it so skillfully to show us images and then show us that same image an hour later right and then show us that image an hour later as we get more and more context more and more clarity of the story more and more depth from the characters that it does feel like i think a pretty meaningful evolution in filmmaking style and i think one of the reasons why some previous films have been so successful is because of the fact that jennifer lane is one of the most well-known filmmakers in the world and so i think that jennifer lane is one of the most well-known filmmakers in the world and so i think one of the reasons why some previous films in that in the 2010s late 2000s with him was i could feel him like grasping for this style but maybe not totally having control over it and i don't know if it is the work with with jen lame that has gotten him to this place but and this story is so big and he has these recurring motifs and images throughout right that it felt like the summation of that movement that he was going towards to the same thing with like you know how in oppenheimer we kind of blow through the first 30 years of his life in 18 minutes and it's by using that style using sound score and the way that the images are cut and this movie does it on an even grander scale like we one minute we're in the palace in ithaca right and then the next second we're in a different timeline on a beach on another land with a man roaming by himself and yet we know that like these two characters are twin the telemachus and odysseus is twin and we i joke about this kind of thing but it is total cinema like it is the thing that you're asking for where you're like bring all the tools of the trade together and you're like bring all the tools of the trade together and make you feel something and understand it at the same time i mean it is also again why this is kind of the perfect nolan project even if he wasn't dreaming and talking about his aspirations to make it his and his entire career but you know this is a this is a poem that to your point has multiple authors or at least multiple instances of authorship and is you told and created over time so that relies on different points of view and i think that's a really good point i think that's a it's also a story told in in people telling other stories and so there's memory there's perspective there is a lot to communicate that this particular style and the cross-cutting can do in terms of you know memory as image and things you know how memory recurs and how you group things together in your head and also that this story you know does need to go from ithaca to you know to cersei to to people at the same time and i think that's a really good point i think that's a really good same place trying to make their way to each other but there are you know multiple timelines to put it in the crassest way possible yeah there's it's a twin narrative in the movie it has multiple perspectives but it's primarily through the eyes of odysseus at various stages of his life and career as a effectively a general in agamemnon's army and so we see moments from the trojan war and and the trojan horse and then there is the series of incidents in which he is trying to protect himself and so we see all of those through his eyes most of which come during a retelling what while he is on an island for seven years with Calypso. Right. Which is a shift from the original text, but helpfully allows us to kind of experience those moments in Odysseus' story. And then there's also the Telemachus component of the story, where Penelope and Telemachus are waiting 20 years for their father and husband to arrive back at Ithaca. And Telemachus, after a certain while, realizing that the suitors that have come for Penelope to rule Ithaca alongside her, are eventually going to get pretty impatient and take action. And so he goes out and goes to find his father. And in going to find his father, that opens up these new portals for other people to tell him stories about his father. Right. This is a very ornate, complicated way of telling this story. Yeah. And as I started to kind of go through my mind of like, what incident happened in what order of the movie, I was kind of marveling at the screenplay. I think it's a pretty phenomenal adaptation. Because even though we know like, okay, there's a scene, there's a scene with the Cyclops, like that scene probably isn't as hard to write as, well, what comes immediately after that? And what comes immediately after that? I would be curious to know if this is like, if the film is structured exactly as it was written, or if he found things in the edit that allowed for this to work more effectively. But nevertheless, like, I was really blown away by it. I think you're making a great point that this is, it's a film that only he could make. And it's a film that he's clearly been working towards in a lot of ways. This is for the end of the conversation, but like, where to go from here? To here for him is like, I have no idea. I don't know that you can do something bigger and more vast than this movie. You know, it is not, it is quite a stark film. It's not very funny. There's a couple of laugh lines. Yeah, but the laugh lines almost stick out. They do. As if they weren't on the page, or it wasn't planned, but then you need to lean into it. And you know, they are, I chuckled a couple of times. You're relying on the star personas of people too to kind of make moments with their dialogue readings or something like that. Yeah. No, this is not a world of humor. The stakes are quite serious. This is, and again, to me, it's like a great match with Nolan, a very serious and self-serious filmmaker has picked, has just finally gone full epic. And if there are jokes in the original Homer poem, you know, they don't, comedy doesn't translate over that many years. So I think it matches well. Well, similarly, it's not a very silly movie because there could be a version of the Odyssey that prominently features the gods. Like the gods could be visually represented and only one god is really visually represented in this movie, Athena. But you could visually represent the gods and you could have Zeus on the mountaintop throwing lightning bolts and you could have Poseidon rise from beneath the sea. And he dispenses with all that. Which is smart. It's very smart. And it makes it feel more like a kind of cosmic doom surrounds Odysseus as opposed to an actual, you know, creature of some kind is determining their fate. And it also kind of calls into question the sanity of the characters because these are articles of faith, right? Most of what they're discussing are not these corporeal representations of power. They're just ideas that the citizens have of these communities. Which, you know, then also sets up something that I think the movie does incredibly well, which is, opens up what the characters are arguing about in a very temporary way. In a very temporal, you know, contemporary Greek sense to modern times. And, you know, it's about ways of living and what are your beliefs and what are your philosophies and what do you value and what do you not value. And if you have Zeus there yelling about Zeus's law or Xenia or you didn't make, you didn't wash the feet the right way, the more you literalize it, the further it, you know, seems to a modern audience. But when you just make it about how do you treat a stranger and how do you create a relationship and how do you create a world that you want to live in, it's incredibly resonant. I totally agree. It makes the movie more, the movie's primary theme ultimately, I think, is the erosion or destruction of civilizations and how frequently aggression and war lead to these erosions and they kind of deepen them even further. The movie is very, very modern in multiple ways. It is very clearly speaking to a contemporary time with this idea. It's also using colloquial language like dad and stuff. Those are two words that appear in the movie. And I think that's probably smart. To both ground a contemporary audience and also to make those same connections that you're describing so it feels like it's legible. But by not having the gods in the movie, but also having the traditions of the gods, the ideas of the gods, the sort of morality of the gods, it means it's up to the people to make the choices, to do the things that are right. And so the movie is very consumed by the moral stature of this Greek society. And if it's being broken, why is it being broken? And who can save it? I think who can save it is something that amuses me. It amuses you a little bit? Sure. Well, who's responsible for it all? And I found that, the conclusions of that part of the movie to be very profound. And then, yeah, there's a, you know, the burden of genius runs through every single Christopher Nolan movie. And it goes through this as well. I mean, that is also textually accurate. Like Odysseus is described as the clever and most greatest of warriors. The poem itself does not communicate as much in context. It's more of an internal psychology as, or not that I picked up in the translation as, you know, as we have become accustomed to as, you know, therapized children of the modern world. But it, again, I just think it's, I think it's very clever that he actually picked this text where it allows him a springboard to, you know, use very, very big set pieces in Spectable to interrogate the things that he is clearly quite interested in and has been. I want to talk a bit about the actors. Yeah. And like, we'll have to figure out the best way to have this conversation because we can talk about each sequence, most of which are pretty breathtaking. Yeah. Plus this raft of movie stars that are strewn throughout the movie, some in big parts, some in very small parts. But the decision to cast Matt Damon's pretty crucial. Yeah. It does, to me, it did two things. Aside from just casting a tremendously dependable movie star. One, it means that every single character in this movie is speaking with an American accent. Mm-hmm. Because Matt Damon is not doing an accent. And that means that everyone needs to sound like Matt Damon. And if you watch movies from the 50s or 60s or 70s where you've got one character doing a German accent, one character doing a British accent, frequently in movies like this, everyone does British. Yeah. Brad Pitt tries to do British in Troy. Yeah. That's incoherent because it's in Greece. But this choice, I think, also modernizes the movie. If this were Tom Hardy or Cillian Murphy, two actors who I could very much also see playing Odysseus in totally different roles, registers. Yeah. I think the movie's different. And I think that if the movie is British, it's weirdly not as effective because of what Nolan's intentions are. Do you agree with that? I do agree with that. I think also when you're casting each of those actors, I mean, you named Cillian Murphy and Tom Hardy, but they are bringing different relationships to the audience and different assumptions of how you're interpreting Odysseus than Damon does. Yes. And you're rooting for Matt Damon. That's it. You're always rooting for Matt Damon, even when you're not supposed to be rooting for Matt Damon. See the talented Mr. Ripley and the informant. Exclamation point. And the movie uses that so well, but it's essential because otherwise, this is a character who otherwise makes a lot of decisions where you're like, sir, really? It complicates the text to make him so likable. Yeah. Matt Damon is very likable. And he's very likable. He's very easy to root for as a movie star. And he has played bad guys. He played a bad guy in a Christopher Nolan movie. And he's very good in Interstellar. But Odysseus not only makes poor choices, but he's arrogant. And he makes those poor choices out of a sense of accomplishment. And he's a trickster. And he's a bit venal. And Damon doesn't really play him that way. He plays him slightly more innocent. And then ultimately faithful. Yeah. And I'll say it's a pivot from the text that is fascinating because it does strike me that this is how Nolan sees all of his protagonists. He does not see them as men with ill intention. Oppenheimer is one of the most controversial people of the 20th century. Right. He's responsible for creating something that led to this destruction of cities and lives, thousands and thousands of lives. But he has sincere empathy for Oppenheimer in the film. Right. And he ends that movie portraying his regret instead of something else. Yeah. And this movie similarly, even though Odysseus is just kind of an archetypal character, he's like a wily trickster. But in almost every instance, it takes away the responsibility of Odysseus from his actions and or tries to smooth them and make them more relatable. Yeah. Which I think is wise because, again, from trying to translate this to a modern audience, you read the original poem and it's just a picture of a completely different society that treats men, women, people who are not aristocrats, by which I mean, you know, enslaved people, like very differently, like the morals, the way. It's just, it is a foreign world. And, you know, that's the way they lived and necessary, I guess, to the times or to the. organization. But the Odysseus in the poem is not someone who you could identify with because you would never be in a situation where you just need to stick around on a witch's island for a year and have a torrid love affair because your men need to rest after being turned into pigs. You know, you're just it's it's so I think it's it's savvy to your point. It is very much in keeping with certainly Oppenheimer and with Nolan movies in general, where they are, they are protagonists, pun intended, who take on great challenges and really do feel like both the triumphs and the ills of the world are their creation. And. And that involves both pride and guilt. And I turned to you as we walked out of our first screening of the Odyssey of Christopher Nolan's Odyssey. We've seen it twice. And I asked you like a little bit tongue in cheek, but also sincerely. And I went home and asked Zach this as well. Like, do you as a man just walk around being like, this is all great, but it's also all my fault. Like, there is there is something that all of his characters do that, you know, assumes. There's some responsibility, but not all of it. And there's there's a hubris. There's an ambition. I mean, I think those are twinned. You can't really have one without the other, at least in a realistic world that I find I find a little amusing, but also I think I find it alien. I don't I don't relate because I don't see myself as a as a great man. I mean, it's really that simple. I think if you look at Batman's burden, Batman, you know, sets out to find identity for himself. And. In doing so, he feels that fighting crime and making the world more safe is a is a reason to be alive. And in doing so, he draws out all these freaks who want to defeat him. And then those freaks tend to make Gotham crazy. So the inextricable relationship between Batman and the Joker is the same thing that you're describing here. The same thing is true of Oppenheimer. The same thing is true of of Leonardo DiCaprio's character in Inception, who's desperate to go back to a more innocent time with his family, but also has this extraordinary power. And that power can mean something really special for the world if he uses it correctly. The same is true in Interstellar, a man who abandons his family to go on a journey. And by the time he returns home, he's, if not forgotten, a figure of some controversy. He does it in every movie. And it's easy to psychologize. This is a guy who goes on journeys to go make movies. Yeah. Now, it's a family affair. His wife is a producer. It sounds like his kids go with him. But there's something going maybe that maybe was his parents. You know, maybe there's something in his life that makes him return to this structure over and over and over again. There's always a watchful older figure, you know? Michael Caine played this role in all these films. There's always somebody who's sort of like, maybe he had an uncle who was very insightful, who gave him some guidance. In this film, John Leguizamo plays that character. He's this sort of like watchful, protective, seer-type figure who stays guard at the palace. These frameworks recur over and over again because he no doubt relates to them. I'm just a guy with a podcast, you know? That's not something that I really see. One thing that I don't mean to judge him for it. And I mean, I guess I do judge him for it all the time. That's the history of podcasting. But the great man trope is recurring. And I do think it's amusing to me. I think it's fascinating. I think it's also what, you know, Western stories and movies are based on, both textually and in terms of people being like, yeah, I can make this three-hour epic and not use effects. Yeah. And film in the craziest locations in the world. You need that ambition. So I do respect it. I thought it was interesting in this movie, and a choice I liked in this movie is that some of that same ambition is applied to Penelope, his wife, his long-suffering wife as a character. And, you know, it was funny, even in those moments, she has kind of two standoffs with her son, Telemachus. Penelope is played by Anne Hathaway, just soaring heat. And Telemachus is played by Tom Holland, using an American accent. And she's, you know, she is a frustrated person. She is a woman in a man's world. And she's, you know, being pushed around by all of these people. And she expresses some desire to, you know, to be a woman. And she's, you know, she's a woman in a man's world. And she expresses some desire to be a woman. To be in charge of things herself. She also kind of tells off her son a couple times in ways where I was like, this is a little intense. I don't, you know, but it was interesting then to realize that I don't have the great woman complex either, you know, and I was interested to see him assigning it to both characters. I think that's a new and positive development in what has been a pretty historically complicated character to unwind for modern audiences. Yeah, I think that is them to modernize that. Yeah. That strain of the story to make it. As much as you can. Yeah, I think to just make it more sympathetic and to make us understand a little bit more how Penelope gets, should be operating maybe in our modern times. Yeah. As someone with a little bit more agency or a little bit more desire. This sort of like, this feeling like she should have the right to, if not claim her husband, which is what she really wants. She wants her husband to come home. But if that's not going to happen, how can she secure her own fate in a life that she wants to lead? I think if it's not Anne Hathaway, I don't know if that character works as well. Sure. Because she really is, you know, she's a very skilled actor, one of my very favorite actors in the universe. But she is really good at going big. And like this reading of Penelope is very like sucking on your teeth and like daggers for eyes. Like staring down Tom Holland and then just kind of burning him alive with her words. And she does this a couple of times. She gets a couple of moments with Odysseus where she's sort of more open and sensitive. Yeah. They show their love to each other. But she's a very fierce character. And you need a very fierce actor to do it. And in the wrong hands, I think it could have gone pretty terribly. I would say the writing is a little bit weaker in the Penelope scenes. And I find this in most Nolan movies. I find he kind of struggles to write women like this. And I was grateful that she was in the part. That's what I'll say. Yeah. I mean, I do think that it's, I was giving points for improvement, you know. And also because I did see the intent of trying. To do something different with this character. A character who in the text just like, you know, sits at home. The traditional, you know, Oscar nominated performance of the wife. Yeah. Kitty Oppenheimer. Yeah. Totally. So I liked it. And I agree that, you know, just watching Anne Hathaway cook and eat Tom Holland alive. Not literally, but pretty much. Yeah. I mean, other creatures eat things alive for sure. And we're speaking in big thematic historical structures or an adaptation and ideas. But as I said, this is a big dumb action movie as well. Totally. And after you get through the first roughly 20 minutes or so, which features a lot of exposition and kind of scene and community setting around where Penelope is at this moment in time after Odysseus has been gone for all these years and what her relationship is to her son. Yeah. You know, we get launched into the action. Yeah. And very quickly we are shown Odysseus on the beaches trying to remember his life and starting to tell his own story. And is the Cyclops really the first true adventure that we get after he leaves the shores of battle after 10 years and decides to set out with his men? And when he sets out with his men, he does so on his own terms. He doesn't follow Agamemnon. Right. He goes on his own path. And Himish Patel. Himish Patel, who's wonderful in this movie as his second in command, is skeptical right from the jump. Yeah. Which I think shows us how we should regard Odysseus in the movie as someone who's a little brazen and has his own ideas and not all those ideas work. But very quickly they start realizing that they need to hit land so that they can restock their food and water. Yeah. And every time they show up on the shore somewhere, something terrible happens. You know, I don't think he has one good landing spot across this entire journey. Well, Calypso, debatable. Good point. Yeah. I want to talk more about, we'll all talk more about Calypso. Yeah, we will. Yeah. Yeah. She's very special. The Cyclops is, I thought this worked phenomenally well. Yeah. I've gotten some feedback from people who didn't like this as much because it's a combination of a puppet and a human performance from the actor Bill Irwin. And the Cyclops is something that is probably the single most memorable monster from all of Homer's stories and one that has been rendered on screen many times. This is the most human-esque version, I think, that I've seen in a movie. And the sequence has changed quite a bit from what's in the poem, specifically like what this character, what Odysseus does to trick the monster. But I thought it was very involving and I wasn't taken out of it at all by the puppetry or the effects work or anything like that. And, you know, shooting inside of that cave with the flock of sheep, I thought was fantastic. I loved it. I mean, you know, it is very classical horror tropes of don't go into that cave and it is made in just that way. But no, you know, we should say the film opens with a title card that says in a time of apparent magic, which, you know, I thought of in a time of great mischief and the secret agent. Mm-hmm. So I did think was tone setting in a way that I'm not going to be seeing, you know, it is fantastical. It is. And I and so I guess I was sitting there thinking like, oh, wow, that's a real person. They're doing this, you know, practically or that's a puppet. And this is I was thinking excitedly. This is not CGI. So I guess that works for people. But I will always just be pumped when I realize that something is not CGI and they tried something. Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, choosing Bill Irwin, who, in addition to being an actor, people recognize from movies like Rachel Getting Married is also a mime. And so his ability to kind of affect. Is it is it polyphemous? What is the name of the Cyclops? The Cyclops is a weird character because, you know, he's the son of Poseidon and he's this sort of half man, half creature, half God. Right. And he makes cheese. He makes cheese and he can speak. You know, the change from the from the the poem is interesting. You know, there's a famous thing where he tells the Cyclops Odysseus that he's his name is nobody. No man. Yeah, no man. So that when he when he pokes his eye out and he's writhing in pain on the ground, he says, nobody hurt me. Yeah, no man hurt me. And no one comes to save him. And that's how they escape. And the movie dispenses with that. And it creates just actually, I think what you said is right. It's like a more of like a horror escape sequence where you're sort of like racing away from the monster that I thought was effective. But that was one of the very. Very few things from the book that I remembered when I was watching the movie. I was waiting for him, waiting for Matt Damon to pull some trickery. And it's much more of just like an escape from a big creature. And then Odysseus, you know, turns back to poke him once again and to further. Shoot his arrow at him. Anger the Cyclops so that the Cyclops then chases them. And, you know, and they lose some men, which also featured my favorite bit of puppetry or acting. Which was just the grimace on the Cyclops's face before. And that was genuinely really funny. Really, really, really good stuff. And again, you know, they're filming in like some beautiful beach and he's throwing things and it all looks pretty real. I, you know, I was very pro. Yeah. I mean, I think it's probably worth noting that the film, I think, is in seven countries on at least two continents, maybe three continents. It's in Morocco, Greece, Italy, Iceland. The Falls Lake water tank on the Universal Studios lot, which I've been to. And Scotland. And that it's not easy to film in places like this. And not everyone can do it. But if you can do it, you should do it. It really, really helps this film on a consistent basis. Transcendent. There are several moments when they're out at sea, when the camera pulls way back to show the epic scale of the ships that have been constructed. I mean, one of the shots looks like a Turner painting. There's another one when Odysseus is just alone on the beach. And it's just like the grand scale. I love it. The palace in Ithaca, which I believe is in an island off Sicily, the Goat Island, is like magnificent. It is. You know, and these are these are real places. This episode is brought to you by ADT. One second, you're enjoying your day off. The next, your phone buzzes. A window's been broken at home. You're miles away. In one second, everything can change. That's why ADT security systems can monitor your home 24-7. They're backed by the most. And company-operated monitoring centers in the industry. So you're always supported during an emergency. When every second counts, count on ADT. Visit ADT.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios, the Dog Stars, now playing in theaters and IMAX. Visionary filmmaker Ridley Scott returns with a gripping post-apocalyptic thriller when a mysterious radio transmission shatters a lone pilot's isolated existence. He embarks. He embarks on a dangerous journey in search of hope. Starring Jacob Elordi, Josh Brolin, Margaret Qualley, Allison Janney, and Guy Pearce. The Dog Stars, now playing in theaters and IMAX. Endless summer escapes start here. Travel the worlds of Netflix IRL. Inspired by fan favorites like Stranger Things and Squid Game. Brave the upside down. Face off with the front man. Play leveled up arcade games. Shop exclusive merch. And enjoy themed food and drinks. Beat the heat. Play, eat, and shop on repeat at Netflix House at Galleria Dallas. Bring your crew and save. Get your tickets today at Netflix.com slash house. As Telemachus goes on his journey to learn more about his father, he goes to Menelaus, Agamemnon's brother, who is settled back in his throne years after the war. Love you doing Homer. Thank you. This is my interpretation. Step aside, Emily Wilson. And he sits and has a meal with Menelaus and Helen. And Menelaus tells him the story of the Trojan horse. First of all, Bernthal, I loved it. I wasn't sure if I was going to love it. I was a little concerned when I saw the earliest material of this, of the hey dad and stuff and the colloquial stuff that you find throughout the movie. But his demon energy, I think, is very well suited. His aggro bro energy is what you might think a figure like him would be like if he were transported to modern times. And so him telling this story, and then the way that this. The younger cucked brother. Yes, very much so. Somebody who's not totally fulfilled despite being married to Helen. The Trojan War shit is unreal. Now, we saw this early on before the movie came out. But the realization of it, again, done entirely practically. And I think a lot of times when you watch representations of this story on screen, even in animation, everything seems easy. And what this movie shows you is that everything at this time in history was hard. And that surviving inside of the horse would have been nearly impossible. That the piss and the shit that you would have been surrounded by, the way that, you know, they would check the horse when they're drawing it into the city with the blades, people would become injured and die. People would die inside of the horse. Getting the horse up into the city across these hundreds of logs that are set up from the shores would be hard. Like, there is physical toll in everything that happens in the world that the movie goes out of its way to show. It doesn't just say, like. It doesn't yada yada anything. It might have a fast-cutting style that moves you through it quickly, but they built all this stuff. Yeah. And now it's on display outside the Universal CityWalk. Yes. This is electric. This is when I just kind of, my spirit left my body. Me too. Because, you know, the Trojan horse is a reference point, like, not a pop culture, like a cultural idea that has been repeated so many times in so many different ways. And it has become a part of our language. So you do forget that it's a real thing that could be made and constructed and elongated. The sequence comes at, like, exactly one hour into the movie, which I think is so smart. Like, I checked my watch, but I just really appreciated the clockwork of that. And it's thrilling. It is upsetting. And it uses his other movies, like the Dunkirk in the horse instead of the ship. There is this. These nice callbacks throughout that I found very exciting. And you just kind of can't believe what you're watching. And then it does turn into just, like, full-blown battle sequence, right? With Bernthal and Damon, like, screaming and lots of arrows and. Well, it's like, it's a very briefly, like, an espionage film when they break out, you know? And they set their plan to sort of open the castle gates and let their soldiers storm in. And, you know, I didn't. I really liked. The second time around, I really liked that part in showing how they sort of. The geography of the movie is very coherent, where you constantly know where characters are going and what it is that they're attempting to do, which can be confusing in movies like this sometimes, especially ones that are cut this way. But then when it does tear into battle and you watch Agamemnon walk through those gates and hundreds of men streaming behind him. You had some notes about Agamemnon's armor, but I think in that setup, when the gates go wide. I think it looks great. I appreciate the. Is it Ellen Mirajnik that was the costume designer? I honor her efforts. I've been told it's not historically accurate. I don't really care about that. I think it's very funny that he cast Benny Safdie as Agamemnon, who, if you've met Benny Safdie, you would not say he strikes the same pose that that character does. But I think that's very intentional because of Agamemnon's fate, you know? And the kind of. Who is ultimately behind a helmet like that during war? Yeah. And what does a man like that represent, actually? The armor. The only moment that you see the man behind the helmet is a very crucial moment when he's laid bare. I did want to talk about arrows for a second. Sure. I mean. Arrow corner? Yeah, arrow corner. Well, I just. How are we so instantly killing everybody with an arrow until we're not, you know? There is an inconsistency on that. You know, sometimes you shoot a guy and they just, like, fall right down. And then, at other points, Odysseus has, like, three arrows sticking out of him and he's fine. He's a great warrior, obviously. Okay, so it's really just about your own personal metal as to whether the arrow can get you. Are they dipped in any sort of poison? Not seemingly not in this film. Okay. I think we know that Odysseus is a great archer. We do know that, and he has precision. Yes. And so it's just about. Is it just about where you get hit? I think so. Well, like, if you got hit right now, if you got hit in the eye with an arrow. Jack, get the bow and arrow in here. Are you instantly dead, or are you just really, really mad? In the eye? Yeah. If I caught an arrow in the eye, in all likelihood, it's going to my brain. So I think that would be problematic. but do you think that's instant death I think that's what I'm asking why isn't there why isn't there kind of more like zombie why is this important to you I found myself wondering because there was a lot of bow and arrows because they're picking people off before they can get to the gates of joy to open them neck head and heart you're going down for the count anywhere else I think it's survivable okay I mean they used what they had I understand this is the convenience of action movie storytelling totally I just I'm just like guy gets hit with arrow and he's out I was that engaged with the battle that I was wondering about the mechanics of bow and arrows also the mechanics of bow and arrows are essential to the plot of Homer's Odyssey and Christopher Nolan's Odyssey we will get there the Trojan horse story we return to that moment a few times the beheading of Athena's statue yes and when we're watching it the first time we have this incredible feeling of excitement and grandeur the good guys are about to win they're storming the castle and they're going to take over and then you realize as you go through the rest of the film and we return visually to those moments over and over again that this is one of the worst things that's ever happened to Odysseus that him being a part of this incredible epic triumph in war has destroyed civilization has destroyed his psyche has destroyed his perception of what it is to be human you know as you said like that's not really in the poem like none of it like that reading of the character is really interesting it's really it's really quite insightful and a way to change what the Odyssey can be to us because we're living in a time of unjust wars right now you know we're living in a time of people being killed for very bad reasons and I love that he uses what in any other Hollywood product would have just been the moment of greatest triumph for our hero where we just you know just like Achilles is the great hero in Nolan fashion you see it twice and so you know we can talk about like the second the second part the second viewing of the sacking of Troy from a slightly different perspective when we get to it but but the fact that you have already lived through it from Menelaus' point of view and you experience the victory and then the victory is eroded for two hours is I think really special it's incredibly smart you know that we eventually return back to Odysseus Odysseus begins visiting many islands and I like this part of the movie but I do feel like this is the part of the movie even the second time around I was like okay we're going through the stages of each moment in the Odyssey so we are going to see the Lestragonians the giant soldiers who in this film are wearing this massive armor they're not quite cannibals as portrayed in the poem but they are these you know terrifying figures who are overwhelming Odysseus' men as they're seeking I guess a herd of I don't know goats to eat is that what they're following sheep sheep they don't even make it to the sheep on this one the sheep are um this one they just they see the one wailing child no no no this is the child who screams quite loudly who can relate me and then all of the the the adult soldiers who are featured pretty prominently on the posters and it just looked like really giant they do I assume those are all just giant men uh I didn't know other there was maybe some stilt and some like trench work going on they've they battle in a forest so there are lots of different ways that you could height differences but I mean it's they just go nuts it's the most classically um swords and sandals moment in the movie I would say where it's just like big scary guys battling little guys and chasing them down the mountain and many men are killed an entire ship is destroyed by these figures who are just marauding the ship um it's very exciting it it has like the most typically propulsive score from Ludwig Garnson it feels like more like Tenet than it does like the rest of this film which is using you know the music throughout I thought was fantastic I really feel like he's an heir to the 1940s and 50s film composers who knew how to swell you you know he's using much more modern styles but in this movie Garnson uses like the Aulos I think is what it's called which is like a dual reeded um wood woodwind instrument and so he cuts these two different sonic styles one that's just like pure war drums and one that is this more like the lyre and that instrument to sort of like transport you back 3,000 years to make you feel like you're listening to something old and so the movie keeps doing that too where each sequence you know Circe follows the Listergonians and that's more goats I think pigs yeah I don't know there are many creatures on that there are lions and tigers and leopards and panthers sure those are of course actually real people who have been transformed by Circe um so and the Circe sequence is yet another island and they're kind of crashing ashore and they're they're looking for food they're lost they're looking for food what year are we in now in their journey year six seven you know it's been a long time yeah that they've been at sea and this is Nolan's first true horror movie um this sequence Samantha Morton plays Circe and she leads Odysseus' men and this is also a moment where Odysseus has essentially been mutinied um right they're getting fed up they're sick of his shit um and all the bad choices he's been making and. you know for the sickos like me I was like yes yes when the men start eating the stew it was so gnarly in the best way like very very gross and again sort of practical you know they're using so it's like it's sort of meat squid like stuff that turns tentacles yes and and as Circe starts shaping the men's faces into pigs it reminded me a lot of the transformation scene in in an American Werewolf in London which is also done practically it felt like a Rick Baker makeup sequence and I'm sure that there were effects that were used on that in post but doing something like that and showing you just enough to make you uncomfortable and to feel disgusted but not so much that it breaks the illusion of what's happening is a real feat um now Circe is also somewhat different in this adaptation right? yeah well abbreviated and so Circe also there was a a best-selling a wildly popular uh recontextualization a novel in the last 10 years called Circe that is told from her point of view and you know that expands and gets into I think you know non-canon territory which is fine but I do as previously noted think that this film elides um the year-long passionate love affair that she and Odysseus have after the pigs are turned and the pigs are turned back to men why do you think that is why do you think it elides it because this movie doesn't want to show Matt Damon fucking Samantha Morton uh no you think that's it I think it's because he's only he has to be true to uh Penelope that's my point like we don't see Odysseus getting down with all these ladies there are multiple moments across this story where like Odysseus arrives on shore yeah and women are ogling him because he's such a beautiful epic warrior right and he's like no no ladies don't do not look upon me for home yeah and for Penelope which if Penelope is in Hathaway I get it true um you know I guess also story time I mean you just mentioned they've at this point in the story they've been at sea for like six or seven years we've not seen six or seven years worth of content you know we don't see any of the mundane of these people need to sleep and eat and do all the things that is indicated in the in the Cersei portion but um yeah they she doesn't really get redeemed she's but she's not evil either there's there's a there's a sympathetic to her component of sympathy I agree with you there is he and I think this kind of extends to every character in the movie um maybe not Scylla but most of the characters in the movie are seen as complicated and flawed but not evil I would I guess Robert Pattinson's character is the one character who is is truly snidely whiplash old school movie villain um and you know as we're going through these journeys you know eventually Odysseus travels to Hades but before he does that we see more from Telemachus and the more time he spends with Menelaus and him trying to figure out as he's traveling with Mentor what he should do and where he should go and it's happening opposite Pattinson's character Antonis who is I guess a a local nobleman who is attempting to become Penelope's husband yeah he's he's one of the most aggressive suitors though there are dozens of them and they're drinking all the wine and eating all the food and bullying other people uh let's say Zach unexpectedly kicks the bucket God forbid that doesn't happen I would be devastated but let's just say it happens is this what you would do? well do I know is the thing because that's the other question like they don't know what has happened to Odysseus and all they can rely on are strangers tales and okay Zach's been gone for 20 years are you hosting 12 suitors? I mean no if I can possibly help it because Penelope also seems pretty pissed off they're using all of her supplies she's I mean the the management system in this home is more archaic and relies on uh slave labor but maybe don't trust me a goth as well in my house then I gotta feed all these people I gotta be in charge of this stuff no absolutely not you know what if Pattinson was one of the guys well yeah Pattinson and his skirt which is conspicuously shorter than all the other skirts you noticed that I did. I tried to point them out to you. You can see those nice knees. uh is that something you're looking for in a man i didn't know until i saw it you know but i think that i not everyone has nice knees and not all the knees are on display but he's just he's gallivanting not really a knee guy again i didn't think my knees are fine okay i have no knowledge of what they look like and i don't need to know i'll give you a look later um i i do think that this this part of the story i think is okay i i it's not a suitor stuff yeah it's not my favorite um i think i think it's very broad it's very broad it exists for a very obvious reason which is that zeus's law and the sort of the golden rule which is so crucial to understanding right the how ultimately these characters feel at the end of the story is kind of returned to over and over again the penelope sort of has to host these suitors because it is the nature of the community at this time and this idea that if a beggar comes to your door you have to welcome that person in you can't turn them away you can't turn them away because of zeus's law and we see telemachus refer to it you know we see characters throughout the story say that there is a kind of politesse that is essential to hold civilization together xenia which is really the only xenia sorry if i'm not saying it correctly but that's the only thing they taught us when we read this uh in school and i didn't i didn't care then and i agree with you that i don't totally relate to it in the in the very literal terms of the movie you know it also exists because they need to present a challenge and a conflict to penelope otherwise she would just either wait patiently for odysseus and or be like hello robert pattinson and your nice knees she's just a damsel otherwise and i think that they you know otherwise the conflict when odysseus there's no conflict once odysseus gets home and it's not um it's just a happy homecoming i mean like he made it shows over i wouldn't excise it i don't think it's more just that it's it's played very broadly but it's a chamber piece it's not an action set piece and so the broad stuff in the chamber piece is maybe a little bit less effective i do think that he makes this great choice to kind of constantly be shooting anne hathaway from behind these kind of veiled circumstances the threading that she's working on or um that sort of sliding door that she sits behind the modesty screen yes the modesty screen interesting um i don't know if that's what they called it but you know i thought it was a very clear architectural representation of the societal divides that are forced upon and she's only allowed to be in certain rooms and in certain places very much it's clever and also the and also mirrors the trojan you know the trojan gates that's right i don't but also that women are meant to be desired but not engaged with you know um so it's it's effective it's just whenever the movie pivots back to those scenes i'm like okay well when are we you know when are we going to hades when are we going to meet when are we going to see sinan we have not mentioned yet elliot page's character um when are we going to see him when are we going to see him when are we going to see him when are we going to see his rise from the dead when are we going to see agamemnon come and tell his tale right are we going to see teresias give his prophecy i love this scene this is again like this is the third scene in a row that you could comfortably call a horror sequence totally movie and obviously this stuff is all in the text but he shoots this fantastically this sort of the blood sacrifice across the shield and then sipping from the blood and the dirt and makeup that is applied to the actress faces in this scene i think this is in iceland so it's just kind of a barren yes like cold and black yeah and like very beautiful but communicating the underworld yes um i i love this part i think the performances from all three of the actors in this in this scene are fantastic i think it's um it it's a challenge in the story that you can't really get around the prophecy and it's not a flaw of the movie but it is just an essential part of the movie where the movie tells you what's going to happen in the movie next and what they tell you is exactly what happens so i don't know if you felt this way but i i certainly felt this way where teresias gives his prophecy and he says you will encounter the sirens and yeah and you should not listen to their song because it will oh i i disagree i think i for a number of reasons because i think that including the prophecy then sets up odysseus's attempts to subvert it um which are fruitless but um you know an interesting wrinkle and they and they're not going to be able to their prophecy comes right after the the most direct accounting and the most emotional recounting of the ways that odysseus has just failed people and betrayed people um you have you know sin on speaking like with with great regret and hurt about you know i was used and you lied to me and you you see what have otherwise been sort of you know mythological exploits and decisions relate on like a very person-to-person human cost and then you see then agamemnon is puts forth kind of the the uselessness of all of this in a different way helen has already introduced that um lupita niango plays helen and she contextualizes the trojan war secrets in terms of you know a war done in my name but not not for me at all for trade routes and for a power grab and so and she also plays klytemnestra yes her sister who in this flashback sequence um takes revenge for agamemnon killing her child sacrificing her child yeah murdering her child um which you are shown in a very very bleak and upsetting way this it's it is a um a retelling that is has a lot of empathy for klytemnestra and so you've just been presented this person who has like betrayed people and made mistakes and like all for what and you know odysseus down bad in that moment is what i would say and kind of your affinity for him is is down bad and so it then gives the audience and you and odysseus the motivation of well at least he's gonna try to fight for the last few men at least he's gonna try he's you know it's folly to try to overturn what the gods have have faded but also he he wants to and that's like a mark in his favor i guess so i think it it to me the characterization and then i just also like i thought the sirens was one of the best three minutes of a movie i've seen in some time i completely agree i can't believe how good it was so i didn't really and and it does go by quickly so some some context i mean you're right that it's just expositional i think what it does is it just it makes that it's not a it's not a flaw of the story like it is the story but it's not a flaw of the story it's not a flaw of the story yeah it is the story that the prophecy is delivered and then these three things happen i think it's more like um even though we know odysseus is going to make these choices to try to subvert the prophecy yeah we also know as readers of the story or just knowers of the story or having seen the movie a second time you're like the incident is too clearly enunciated um it's a little too tell them what you're going to tell them tell them and then tell them what you told them it's not a bad thing good journalism yeah yeah you know it's very correct i agree with you completely about the siren sequence which is very hard to capture because it's another it's like like the cyclops it's something people know very well it's gone into the language as meaning other things it's become very metaphorical for us um the sirens are barely seen um he makes a very wise choice to kind of shoot them at a distance on the island and it is a moment of pure agony for damon and damon kind of turning himself over so intensely in his performance when he chooses to hear the song that it's like it's a standout moment in the movie i mean the performance is amazing because also when he chooses to um hear the song which uh from the emily wilson translation at least is is different than that in the in the poem i think cersei tells him to listen to it and instead it's damon you know with a little mischief in his eye and so and you know it's matt damon doing damon um but also once again getting you really back on his side because why wouldn't you want to hear it and then you know transforming into that total agony and i also felt that that just the writing the screenwriting and the description of what that song um was and what he heard um is holy nolan and some of the best explication of what's going on in his work and some of the best writing that he's done about um longing and guilt and what you've lost i it's yeah no he says that the thing that you desire the most is the thing that you had and can no longer have um and it is it him the way he's cut together him retelling the experience of what he heard and understood while showing damon in that absolute agony is just again like it's in the total cinema thing where you're like you've kind of figured out how to most beautifully represent one of the most famous sequences in all of stories sublime yeah and it just and it really all comes together and it and it really is only it's three minutes um but you just that was i think that was the second time that i sort of you know my soul left my body yeah i i love that sequence as well two times in a movie already and we're not to the third act yes um we speed run still in charybdis as they do as they do in the story it's just a few pages yeah yeah but also just you know as they do in the film oh yeah you don't want to take your time no you got to get past that that whirlpool um and i think it's pretty this is the most fantastical sequence in the entire movie because it's a monster and a massive whirlpool that has a mind of its own and i think it looks good you know i i think his attempts to save everyone are foolhardy um i think himish patel at this point in the film has become almost like the audience surrogate where We're with him and his frustration with Odysseus' pride and arrogance in all of these gestures. We move quickly to Helios' cattle and the final fate of the fleet. We don't even really see the final fate of the fleet, but we see them eat that cattle, which they were told not to do. I just wanted to say that on this one, on the Scylla of it all, you really don't see all of Scylla very much. Just the tentacles. Just the tentacles, which is a very smart, you know, Spielberg 101 decision, but I loved it. I agree. Nice cliffs. Now, throughout the movie, we've been seeing Calypso. Yeah. Odysseus and Calypso are on an island together. She's feeding him lotus flower. Yeah. He clearly can't remember everything about his life. And he keeps saying, why can't I remember? Do you remember? And so the movie is told through these phases of his memory. And after his fleet finally perishes. And he washes ashore on this island. We see that it's all been kind of leading to this moment where the timelines are starting to settle in together. And this is about where we're entering the third act here of the movie. And we've gotten through all the kind of classical Odyssey incidents. And. Charlize Theron. Yeah. Inspired casting. Sure. You know what? If you had to be trapped by. I agree 100%. Well, yeah. No, I mean. You have to be trapped by a demigod on an island and have sex with her every day for seven years. And they, well, they don't show any of that. Yeah. Well, it's implied. It sure is implied. The way that they, the way that they dress her, the way that they shoot her. There's, you know, one shot from behind that is quite spectacular and going on my inspiration board, you know, along with Emily Blunt's arms from Edge of Tomorrow. But. Yes. She's, she's wonderful. And I think casting her is great. And covers as much of the problems with, you know, the character, the writing, the characterization as you possibly can. Listen, it's a tough, tough character. It's. I like what she does specifically in the performance because she plays it. And I'm sure this is in the screenplay as well. She plays it with a lot of regret and confusion. She doesn't play it as this kind of like spider lady. Yeah. You know, who's kind of like taken him away from his real life and love and using him for his beautiful body and the desire that she has for him. That's there. You understand that. But she's kind of mournful about what she's done. And she's kind of gotten to the end of this period of time with this man who she's become, who she's been obsessed with and who she's tricked into staying with her. And Charlize is a good enough actor that, you know, you're like, oh, I see that you've, you've done the wrong thing. You've kept this man from his ultimate fate. And that that actually is against the gods as well. And I think you're right that it's a very simplistic character. And it's a character that like really flatters a male protagonist. And a male author. Which again is in the original text. I, you know, I think it relatively speaking updates and modernizes and makes her more sympathetic. And I agree with you in the performance. You know, she says over and over again, we were happy. We like, we were really happy. Which is at least trying to forge some sort of emotional connection or characterize, you know, give her some interiority. But, you know, it's, it's just like. A woman who traps a guy and it's all her fault. You know, not exactly second wave. It's not. That being said, I would submit. I would submit. Well, and so that's the one thing where I didn't know if the adaptation went far enough. I thought, I thought it could have been a little bit more provocative because it doesn't at any point suggest that the Odysseus character was, if not submitting, then like maybe did want to stay. There's, there's no ambiguity. It's attributed to the, to the Lotus flower. And he was either, you know, drugged and didn't remember or, or wants to go home. And there's another point in the movie where he, where someone asks him, why don't you want to go home? Is it, is it at the sirens? But there, there is a little bit, a hint of a complication of, is there something holding you back? Like, is it true that you're this totally pure person who wants to go home? You know, I'll tell you what. I mean, we've made this list of things that we think this movie is really about. And one of the things that I think it's about is dad goes on a work trip. Yeah. Like that's really what this movie is, is that Odysseus goes on a work trip and I go on a lot of work trips and here's my feelings on my work trips. First day, I'm a little disoriented as everyone is. Second day, I'm like, I'm free. Yeah. I have no responsibilities. I don't have to take care of my child. Yeah. I don't have to make sure everything's okay in my house. I don't have to go to work. Yeah. I'm free. Uh-huh. Third day, I'm like, I got a lot of work here. I'm doing stuff. I came here for a reason and I have all these responsibilities. Fourth day, I'm like, when am I going to see my family? Where is my family? And I think that that is Odysseus' story over 20 years. Sure. It's just transport that four-day feeling I have to 20 years. And so we see in various times, there are periods where he's like, I'm a fucking war hero and I'm hot and I deserve to hear the siren song and then bang Calypso. I deserve it. But I don't think that the presentation of Calypso and. The way that resolves ends with any acknowledgement that he's like, I deserve this, you know? Or even I had the tiniest bit of longing or I participated in any way in extending this like a little bit longer than I should. You wanted to see them get it on? No. No. I mean, sure. That would be great. You know? In that instance, unlike the Penelope scene, a child wouldn't be in the room with them, which, you know, I know that's how it goes in ancient Greece. Or do I know? But he is absolved of all responsibility in that decision. And it's not. There's no day two like, hey, this is awesome. I can do whatever I want with Calypso. And, you know. You're right. That doesn't happen in the movie. I think it could have been a bit. It could have gone a bit further. Do you think a man of his stature deserves to have that experience? Between him and Penelope. Okay. Or Christopher Nolan and his. Again, a very modern reading. Penelope. Yeah. Emma Thomas, who was there every step of the way. You start to wonder whether. No, I mean. You're suggesting polyamory? What are you. No, no, no. I'm suggesting that maybe he doesn't. You know, that's not allowed in the script because he's got someone right there on his work trip with him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good point. Good point. The final 45 minutes of the movie is all about Odysseus' return. Yeah. He rebuilds a raft from the remains of his ship. He leaves Calypso. Mm-hmm. He sets out to go back. To Ithaca. Yeah. At this time. He passes out for a while. And Athena just kind of. Yeah, shuttles him along. Zips him. We'll get to Athena momentarily. Okay. This all leads to Penelope's sense that the moment has come where the suitors are going to become more agitated. Antinous has made strong movements towards filling Odysseus' shoes. Mm-hmm. Telemachus thinks he's making moves. But he's just kind of a buffoon. And I'll just say plainly, I don't think Tom Holland is great in this movie. I think he's getting some good reviews. I think he struggles a little bit. I kept waiting for him to say, Mr. Stark! Mr. Stark! Like, I couldn't get Peter Parker out of my head when I was watching him. Yeah, the accent with him is noticeable. It's noticeable. You know, he's a good screen presence, and he's actually quite a good action hero, and he's a wonderful Spider-Man. It stuck out a little bit to me in the movie. Mm-hmm. If I'm giving some negative notes on it. But when he becomes, together with Matt Damon, when at first Matt Damon introduces himself in the temple as a beggar. Right. And then saves his life by eliminating all of Antinous' terrible henchmen. And then we see the plan to sort of take back the palace come together. You forgot about the dog. Yes. What's the dog? Hargis? Is that the dog's name? I didn't learn the dog's name, but the dog has been waiting for Odysseus these 20 years. Yes, on a pile of dung. Yeah. It's unfortunately put there by Antinous. Eventually, this beggar enters the halls, and Penelope decides after a long evening and a conversation with the beggar that the moment is now that if Odysseus is in fact still alive, he will emerge at this time and emerge in this challenge that she sets up. And if not, she'll accept the fate from one of the suitors. And what she sets up is a challenge only Odysseus can win. Mm-hmm. And this part of the movie fucking rocks. This is the absolute—this is classical John Wick. Oh, but you just skipped their conversation and the flashback. Yes. Which to me is the pinnacle of the movie. Where he tells the story of the war and what he experienced. And he's recognized by his nanny, but tells her not to—and it's unclear he and— It's a wonderful moment of—it's before the callback of the Trojan War where— Early in the film, we see Odysseus hunting, and he's gored in his ankle by a boar. Yes. And he's—his wound is cleaned by this nanny. Right. And it's when his leg—his feet are being cleaned by this woman some 30 years later that she realizes who he is. And there's this—that's a great little movie moment of recognition between them. He's gored, by the way, because he always gives like a warning shot with his bow. He plucks his bow. He plucks his bow, which is just like an incredible sonic setup for another great movie. Another great movie moment. A-plus stuff. But so he— There's like 20 of these in the movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody does something in the first hour and then they do it in the third hour and you're like, yes. Yeah. God, I love that. But that one is just like the whole movie turns and it like brings in your John Wick in that way. But before we get to that, he and Penelope, Odysseus is the stranger and Penelope have a conversation through the screen where he tells his version of the Trojan horse story. And he's telling it as a stranger, but with Odysseus's revisionist, you know, hard earned understanding of what happened and what it did to the world. And it's really and it's the thesis of the movie in terms of its thoughts about war, how we treat other people, what is our duty to, you know, to another man and the world at large in an incredibly beautiful way. And it is interspersed with like a second. Total run of the sacking of Troy and they're lighting things on fire and the and beheading Athena statue and their savagery is foreground. Yeah. And it is there's so much Oppenheimer in this while also it being just like a dramatic swords and sandal again, lighting multiple things on fire, which is exciting, but also appalling. I see women and children in a way that we didn't in the first rendition of the story. And there's a similar. There's a shot that really mirrors that one shot from the like the pep rally or whatever in Oppenheimer of the young woman with the her face disintegrating in in this film. I thought it was really genius that it's instead of a, you know, a slave girl, it's Athena's face transported right on. And then there is that same exact moment framed in the same way of just like this is the cost. This is, you know, this is what you are doing and what you're responsible for. I really, really transcendent stuff. And to me, kind of like the fullest representation and achievement of what Nolan's trying to do with, you know, certainly revisionist American history and broader social commentary about like I really, really powerful. Yeah, I completely agree. It's it's genuine thematic storytelling. And it does also, I think, make Athena coherent in the film because throughout the films and day. Crops up at moments of great doubt for Odysseus moments when he's made a choice that feels like the wrong choice and she comes in and she sort of she's the skeptical God, you know, she's somebody who's like, is this really what you're going to do in this? Are you not a man who believes in this, this and this? And then when we see her in this state of vulnerability at the end of the story, you kind of see the way that he has turned himself over to the faithfulness of the gods and that that is that's the that's the true code of life that like the decency that is woven into and the gods are fractured. And they're difficult and they they they're mercurial, but they do have this kind of like divining straightforward idea of how to be alive in this time in Greece and that he subscribes to it. It is his faith like it is his it is the structure of his life is code and the movie communicates that and in doing so effectively Penelope realizes like who's back, you know, and like what's happened. Yeah, and it sets up this just a truly dramatic realization. Of his return. It's not a simple she could have just slid the doors open, but you know, there's a moment where what is what what is the sequence where we learn that you can't just reenter the halls like you have to take it back to to well, that's oh, isn't it from Agamemnon? Yes, who says thank you. Yeah, like, you know, beware. Don't walk in the front door. Exactly. Yes, it's Agamemnon's wisdom that he's following and that allows for this family. Even though, you know, they've effectively been reunited, but they can't reunite in a clean way without there being some sort of attempt to thwart their power. And so they set up this elaborate challenge. And yeah, I think this this part of the movie is incredible. And then the bow pluck and then just everyone going to town. Damon Holland gets in the mix. Yeah, he gets to fight Logan Marshall Green. Yeah. Upstairs was throwing swords through the roof. You know, listen, ingenuity. Yeah, like truly. It's a very old fashioned style battle style, you know, fight movie stuff. There's like a little John Woo in this part of the movie. There's definitely a lot of John Wick. The cutaways to Pattinson being like, get the sword, get the shields. Like, it's so hokey, but so good. Like, it's so satisfying because you just want him to die so bad. And he's doing everything he can to tell people to do his bidding. And he's such an unlikable weasel of a character. But yeah, that moment pays off. He's doing it tremendously well. The drums just going harder and harder. And you kind of think that like the drums can't get any more intense. And then they somehow do. Sort of like tantric drums. It's really, really amazing. My heart was just racing for the last 20 minutes of this movie through that entire sequence. The way that it's edited together, the way that it's told. And it's like, I know what's going to happen. That's that's the great thing. Yeah. You know, like this has happened with a few Nolan movies for me where I'm like, I know what's going to happen. And I'm still really, really caught up. And that is a testament to adaptation that you would still be so caught up in how this story plays out. Of course, Odysseus is triumphant. He kills everybody. And those who he doesn't kill eventually bend the knee to him. They realize their king has returned. And so tell me how you feel about the final. Yeah. So it's a quick wrap up. I mean, he and Penelope have like the unmasked, you know, walls, modesty wall open reunion. And he presents his Athena pen. So she knows it's really him. And he's held on to it this whole time. And, you know, it's very beautiful. And I think they're good. They're very good in it. And he sets up what is a pretty quick denouement. Mm hmm. And explains what's going to happen, which is that they give Ithaca to Telemachus. And there is a recurring bit in the film of how, you know, Odysseus is not properly honoring the dead in the ritual way that Greeks, you know, treat a dead body. And he keeps saying, when I'm done, I'll sail west, like, and honor all my men. And so after he has given Sinan back his shame. Yes. To Antinous. Yeah. And he is. So he reveals his plan to to Penelope, which is also a call back before he leaves for Troy. She says, let's just, you know, sail west, chase the sun. Beautiful, beautiful sunsets. And so in the end, they are on the boat together. Chasing, you know, going west, chasing the sun. And then for for some reason, they feel the need to gild the lily with the last three lines of the film, which are something about how, you know, men will forget to write or speak or whatever. And just like, you know, previews the Dark Ages. And then Penelope reassures Odysseus that civilization will rise again and then cut to black. I thought it was a hopeful note. I could not. I could not help but think about Christopher Nolan and Emma Thomas leaving the country after a presidential election. That was the vibe that that sailing on the ship was giving me a little bit of like, I can't fucking deal with whatever's going on over here. I thought I thought everything up until the Dark Ages history lesson and civilization will rise again. And if you just cut those two lines of dialogue and just feature them sailing west, I think it is, you know, hopeful, but also that they are still leaving home. Like, not everything is rough. There is some. I think they were going to Boca. You know, they're retiring. Yeah. But like, you know, they're coming to L.A. But there's something about civilization will rise again. That is also just like the classic Oppenheimer. So a lot of this was my fault, but also not all of it. Right. You know, and it's like it's going to be OK. And a little bit of the Bruce Wayne and Alfred like cheersing each other from across the tables at the end of the Batman movie. And obviously just, you know, it's terrible dialogue and also so obvious and great meme. I enjoyed it. I didn't. It didn't bother me. I guess I enjoyed it in that. Like, I'm always looking for some Christopher Nolan moment. And I was like, there's my guy. You did it. I thought it was. Look, this is not a subtle film and not at all. I mean, it would defeat the purpose for it to be subtle. And I think it's very obvious that one of the reasons he wanted to make it is it feels like you feel like the world is falling apart around him and that human decency is at an all time low and that we treat each other like shit publicly all the time. Right. And you can look back to three thousand years and think about it in the same register. So I think it's very effective. Communicates that much more artfully for the, you know. Yes. Other three hours of the movie, except for that one minute. But nice ship. Nice ship. Yeah. Yeah. Good take. You know, we've already mentioned most of the actors and below the line folks. You know, we've we haven't spoken about how we saw the film. We saw it in IMAX 70 millimeter at the same theater, the Universal City Walk, which is. Nolan's home court, the film that the theater that he likes to go to, to screen his films, to see other people's movies. It's one of the great screens. Yeah. In the United States. He's a tall man. I wonder how he fits in those chairs. It's a little bit narrow in the seating. I had a little bit of a tough time when I saw it. Yeah, it's European. I thought he used the scale tremendously well. This is the first film that was entirely shot on IMAX 70 cameras. And they had to build all kinds of technology to accommodate this because those cameras are so big. And so loud that to build these sound blimps around them so that the actors could do their dialogue. But then they also had to build a mirroring system. So with the blimps, they would obscure the other actors in sequences so that you would have to give your performance looking into a mirror, which looked into another mirror, which then showed you the actor you were speaking to. Fairly complex. Yeah. You don't feel any of that in the movie. No. I mean, it is a very well-acted movie. It's a big, the acting is big. Yeah. But when there needs to be moments of intimacy, they are there for sure. Like when Calypso and Damon are in a tent on the beach, it feels. It's very true that you don't see that many shots of the two of them in the same frame speaking to each other. That's true. But you don't miss it. Yes. That's a decision that he's clearly made too. He's not showing, he's just not doing typical coverage. You know, he's not doing that thing where you're like, oh, here's a clear establishing shot of two people and they've just entered the kitchen. Like he's totally dispensed with that as a filmmaker at this point. We mentioned Ludwig Goranson. We mentioned Jennifer Lame. We mentioned Ellen. We mentioned Mirajnik. The incredible location scouting of this movie and the decision to travel around the world to do it. Ruth DeJong is the production designer. This is the Oppenheimer team. Yeah. This is the people and the Tenet team, the people who all worked on that movie. These are among the best heads of department in all of movies right now. And there's a reason why these last two films especially are so extraordinary, so captivating. Because you need people. You need people on his level, I think, to help him realize his vision. Like it really is. When you're working at this scale, this isn't just like some little guy with a good idea in his room. No, it's… Thousands of people worked on this movie. I… Is there anything else about the script that you want to note? Because one thing I'll cite before we get into our Oscars conversation is Christopher Nolan has never won an Academy Award for a screenplay. His first nomination was for a screenplay. Yeah. But he's not won for his writing. And his writing has taken some dings over the years. For me, especially. So… I mean, for me, in the last five minutes. Yeah. But just the… But also, I think it features some of the best writing. I agree. Like just on a purely dialogue level. And I think as a… As we said, as a work of adaptation and being both faithful to one of the most recognizable stories in history. Mm-hmm. But also infusing not just his own ideas and like, you know, pet theories. About what it means to be a great man or whatever. But some… Just some very resonant commentary about the world that we live in. Mm-hmm. And being able to tie those two things. To me, it's a… It's a significant leap in terms of… Which, you know, who am I to tell Christopher Nolan, like, good job, you made a leap. This isn't a development talk. But I… It's something he's been working towards, though. Yeah. It's a realization of something that really interests him, obviously. I just… I think it's an incredible accomplishment. Yeah. I agree with you. Is there anything else about the film you want to say? Travis Scott? This film opens with Travis Scott. I mean, it's really funny. It's just very funny. That is really funny. We started giggling. The film is really loud. Yeah. Frequently. It's especially loud in the opening moments of the movie. Mm-hmm. It does not have the problem that many of his films have where you can't understand the dialogue. I was a little worried about this in the first 10 minutes of the film. Because there's a lot of, you know, shuttling around the castle in Ithaca. But I found it to be quite legible. It certainly doesn't have the tenant issue of, like, you can't understand half of what these people are saying in the movie. Yeah. Well, I think that's purposeful in Tenet. Because it doesn't matter. You know? Right. Just let it flow over you. And this, I think he wants you to know what he's saying. We'll talk about the movie more in the text of the movie on Monday. Yeah. With CR, who's also seen the movie. Spoiler alert. He liked it. Box office. Yeah. It's tracking for a $200 million opening worldwide. Okay. I feel like it's going to go above that. Okay. It will make it his highest grossing non-Batman movie opening weekend ever. Oppenheimer opened at $174 million. I'd just like to say that's fucking insane. Because that was the same weekend as Barbie. Yeah. Which, obviously, it was helped by Barbie. They helped each other in a lot of ways. Yeah. But still, at some point, most people couldn't fit both into one weekend. Yes. This movie, at least in Los Angeles, is screening at all hours of the day. Including at 11 p.m. and 3 a.m. Cool. There are screenings running in theaters across the city. Who in the booth wants to go at 3 a.m. and report back? Absolutely not. No. Oh, all right. I got it. Thumbs up from Lucas. Okay. We'll discuss later. I'll obviously be buying your ticket. I mean, there are no tickets for the IMAX 70. That's the thing. Okay. Everything is sold out. All the screenings are sold out. Okay. And, you know, I think there's a conversation to be had about the eventization and also the sort of, like, the FOMO that is being created around the movie that I think has some real downsides. Do you think this movie is a movie that people see three and four times in theaters? I hope that people who are interested. I hope that people who are interested see it twice, at least, because you and I both, I think, found a lot more the second time. Very rewarding on the second watch. Yeah. So, sure. You know, I don't know how the Nolan heads are going to feel about this. Do you think that they're just going to be in lockstep? My guy, he did it again. Or do you think that there is something. Well, I think the culture war stuff is nonsense. Like, I think that's not a. I think that's just internet bullshit. Nobody cares about that. Okay. So, anybody who's, like, a hyper-conservative. Like, this isn't my Helen of Troy stuff, I think that doesn't matter. I think general, like, cinephilia Nolan superfans, I think they'll probably love it. Yeah. It's an ancient tale, but it's told in a modern way with extraordinary filmmaking style. And so, with huge stars. You know, like, it's a very. And it's just a very satisfying watch. Like, it's a big old meal of a movie. I totally agree. I do wonder whether the kind of. Not the looky-loos, but the people. People who go to see movies because it's a pop culture event. Yeah. are going to be locked in in the same way. I think so. It's a good question. Well, I think so, and I'm. This is a little bit anecdotal, and, you know, speaking with the civilians in my life who are aware of things, and they're certainly aware of the press tour, which is very charming, but. And his. I think you do have to do with this cast and with this amount of money on the line. Yeah. But, you know, if you can watch Matt Damon and Tom Holland in the New York Times, cooking kitchen, making gluten-free pizza, then are you racing out in this. Do you feel like you've already participated in some cultural part of it? Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that. This is an old Matt Bellany point of discussion, which I think is insightful, which is at what point does the. I think this movie is such a spectacle that it transcends that. I completely agree. I just. I do wonder how much of. People who are interested in the movie are really going to go see it. People who are drawn to the, like, the star power and the, oh, it's the thing of it all. I can't tell how it's going to convert. Can I ask you guys a question? Do you think word of mouth has never been more important to the box office, say, post-COVID? Because I'm thinking, like, Mandalorian Grogu comes out, it's horrible, drastically underperforms. Same thing with Supergirl. And conversely, you know, Backrooms Mania obsession. It's obviously not a one-to-one, but it's hard for me to imagine people who see this not having it have great word of mouth. It's an unusual version of that because everyone's already aware of this movie. And I'm sure that word of mouth always matters to films, but it doesn't have the same challenges that a movie like Obsession or Backrooms had where anybody who's normie and not invested in those worlds of horror or, you know, the YouTube creepypasta storytelling. It's definitely not going to have a negative effect. I don't think people are going to come out. I mean. It's a massive critical sensation already. I think this is basically his best-reviewed movie ever. And we can dovetail that with the Oscars a little bit, too, because I find this to be such an interesting test case that has effectively never happened before, maybe one other time in movie history. But I. To me, I'm asking about the three to four things, Jack, because that's the way to make a movie make a billion or a billion point five dollars. And I don't. It's really long. Yeah. But that's. I want to see it again, but I won't be racing out to see it a third time. Mm-hmm. You know? I saw Oppenheimer in theaters three times. Because I felt like I was trying to understand Oppenheimer. You know? I felt like he was doing something in the first half of that movie that I'd not really seen before. And I really flipped for it. And the second time I saw it, I liked it even more. And the third time I saw it, I liked it even more than that. I guess that's certainly possible for this movie, but it's. No one's going to be like, I fucking hated The Odyssey, right? I don't. I don't think so. Though people do always surprise me. That's true. And your reaction after the first screening was interesting to me. I think your esteem went up after the second time. It definitely did. And. The thing is that I was. I mean, I wasn't crazy about Tom Holland. I did feel like it was a little episodic to a fault in Act Two. Like, that stuff still exists. But a lot of the sort of like very intentional structural imagery that is foregrounded in the movie and then that recurs later in the movie, that was the stuff that. Yeah. That you were really recommending. I'm like, you can't deny how sophisticated and exciting this kind of filmmaking is. And it rips. Yeah. It just does. It rips. Yeah. When it's going hard, it goes really, really hard. The Academy Awards. I think this movie is locked in 12 categories. Is that crazy? No. That makes perfect sense. Let's go through them. Let's so. And I'm doing. I'm not looking at your document. You do it off the top of your head. Okay. So, best picture, best director. So, that's two. I think best actress or. I didn't put any acting category. You didn't. Oh, interesting. So if you want it, we can add acting categories as well. Okay, we'll come back to that. So adapted screenplay. Yes, that's three. Cinematography, four. Score, five. Production design, six. Costume design, seven. Editing, eight. Sorry, Jen Lim, for leaving you at number eight. Second Oscar incoming. Okay, so that's eight. What are the other sound? Nine. What other categories? James Blake original song? I didn't add that, but I thought about it. James Blake and Travis Scott have an original song in the end credits. Yes. That's on the table. Sure, it's so funny. Okay, so. I like the use of James Blake's voice in the film, too. Something I didn't pick up on the first time around. It's totally great. When you turn to me during the credits the first time, I'm like, is this James Blake? Okay, so. You've got nine. Effects, obviously. Effects is ten. Ten, and then. So you have two more non-acting. What are the other. Oh, casting. Casting. Eleven. And what are other categories that I don't say anything, anyone, I'm going through it. We've done music, we've done cinematography, we've done editing, we've done script, we've done sound, costume. So something near and dear to your heart. Makeup? Makeup and hairstyle. It's not near and dear to my heart, it's just a necessity of the work that I do. Yeah, well, it matters. That's twelve. That's twelve nominations. Not to mention, I do think that there is a Matt Damon, Tom Cruise. Death War coming for Best Actor. Now, neither of them may win, but these are two of the most beloved movie stars of the last three decades, neither of whom have ever won an Acting Academy Award. Yeah, and Damon's on the campaign trail, and I love it. And so. And I think his performance is genuinely special, because this is a weird part. It's a reinterpretation of a classic character, and he is bringing a lot of his classic charms, but also he's got to play a man over long periods of time. And his physical transformation is unbelievable for a man of his age. So he's very worthy. It's not just like, oh, he's the star of the biggest movie of the year that's going to be nominated for Best Picture. It's a great performance. Is Anne Hathaway running in Best Actress or Supporting? I presume Supporting. I would assume as well. Although, she already has a Supporting Actress. She doesn't have a Best Actress yet. That's very true. And she's also in many films this year. Right. This is probably the one to honor her for. I would think so. As well. Okay. So that is. Any other acting performances on the board? Well, I don't know. I mean, is there a case to be made? The movie's going to be really big, right? If it's insanely big, and it becomes a world historic movie that is gunning for 16 nominations, like, Holland is going to run. Yeah. Holland is running. That's a thing that's going to happen. Regardless of whatever my opinion or your opinion is of his performance, I think people are going to come away liking him for the most part in the movie. I don't know. Is there a case for Charlize? You know? What about Samantha Morton? Samantha Morton. Definitely. Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's like eight minutes. I think Pattinson will run for other films, though. He's running. I agree. Which is just. That's a great time for all of us. Yeah. You know? It's nine months from now, but whatever. I would love to see a campaign for Himesh Patel. You know, I think that there's like a lot of performances in the movie that, you know. I don't know if Bernthal's getting an Oscar for this one, but I enjoy the energy that he brought to the movie. And so, I guess what I'm saying is. If you take these 12 nominations, maybe they're not all locked, maybe I'm wrong, but I do think that they are, and then you add four acting nominations on top, 16. That's the record. Okay. Great. Will it happen? I think nominations seems pretty likely. I mean, just. We are always befuddled at this point in the Oscar season, which is, you know, the entire year now. Yep. But midsummer, we're always kind of scratching our heads being like, so, where are all the, you know. Mm-hmm. Where are all the. Where are all the pieces going to fall, and what's going to happen, and why isn't this film at Telluride, and this film at Venice? But I think this is just absolutely colossal, and that, you know, and is as good in all the different categories as Oppenheimer was, so nominations, yes. Wins? No director has ever had best picture and best director in consecutive films. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, Francis Ford Coppola, The Godfather won best picture, and The Godfather 2 won best picture, but he did not win best director for The Godfather. Bob Fosse won that year. He won for The Godfather Part II. Okay. And you want to take that Oscar from Bob Fosse? No. I love Cabaret. I think it's a wonderful movie. Do I think Francis Ford Coppola should have won? You know. Okay. It's implied. There's a discussion. Okay. John Borman directed Deliverance that year. All right. Okay. Can Nolan do this? Will. Forget that. Will he do it? Will he do it? So, who else is going to be in director? Because best picture seems a lot easier to me. And you could see a split, even though we haven't had that many splits in recent years, or the last couple of years anyway, which is as far back as you can go predictably with the Oscars. I agree with you. At the rate at which they are changing. Good point. So, but, you know. Denis Villeneuve is going to be up there. Exactly. I think Christian Mongeau is going to be up there. After that, I don't know. Yeah. Because Alejandro Gonzalez Iñárritu is an Oscar favorite. That's true. That seems very plausible. Any women making movies this year? Nope. Nope. They decided against it. Yeah. Yep. Thanks so much, guys. You guys had a meeting, it sounds like. Yeah. You said no movies for us. We're going to work on our threading. I don't know. Are there any female contenders? I mean, Greta was making a movie, and then she wasn't. And then it's coming out next year. Well, I mean, she is. Yeah. But it's coming out for Easter. Mm-hmm. Well, I guess. For Valentine's Day and then for Easter. I don't know. Exciting. Yikes. I love her forever. She's my number one. Except for Sofia, who's also my number one. No. I can't think of any. Speaking of polyamory. I think it's going to win both right now. I mean, I haven't seen 60% of the movies I'll be competing for Oscars. That's good. So remember this, okay? Do we need to tape it up on the wall so you don't F1 yourself? Can you make sure I don't F1 myself? I'll be on top of it. I have tried every single time. Jack, what did you think of the movie? I thought it was, following, as I told you, the opening 15 minutes, which I thought was really a dreadful exposition slug, just absolutely levitating. Truly, truly amazing. I think movie lovers are really going to love it. Yeah. It is the total package as far as going to the movies. Do you think it's going to make a billion dollars? Yeah. I agree. I do. I think it's interesting that Spider-Man comes two weeks later. They're not exactly the same audience, but they're pretty close. And both of those movies can't hold all the premium format screens at the same time. You know, this isn't like Project Hail Mary, which got like the run of show. Yeah. For a very long stretch. But I do, I think the number one thing that it has going for it, this is probably the best way to end this conversation is, it's a Christopher Nolan movie. He is in a class of his own in terms of marketing the movie against his name. He's a draw. He's a draw that is bigger than Marvel now. Yeah. Straight up. He matters more to movies than any IP. Is there any IP that is more powerful than Christopher Nolan's name? I mean, I guess if you want to say Spider-Man or Batman, maybe. I mean, this movie is going to make more than the Batman or the Batman Part 2. Right. Which is never coming. It's never coming out, so. Right. We won't have to worry about that. Minecraft versus Christopher Nolan. Yeah. I mean, that's a fairly new entrant, right? We'll see with Minecraft 2, but. And there's all this new stuff coming up, obviously. Super Mario. And we're mindful of that. Super Mario. Yeah. I think it's just the consistency. Like, let's circle back on the fifth Super Mario movie. Nope. I don't think we need to. I think we're done. They're going to make more. I mean, I know they're going to make more, but I think we know. They're going to get Yoshi in the mix, you know. Yoshi was in the mix. He didn't do anything. Yeah. We're going to get Wario in the mix. Okay. What did you think of our conversation about everybody's Warios? I was going to say, have you figured out who my Wario is? No, but I'd like to ask the listeners of this show. Okay. Well, I think some people will find you to be the Wario of other people. Are you comfortable with that? Well, you have already given me the greatest compliment you've ever given me. That you're Anne Hathaway's Wario. Yeah. Yeah. Which I just, like, absolutely accept. It's, like, the nicest thing you've ever said. But have you looked at a photograph of Wario? I still don't care. You know, I'm in the same sentence as Anne Hathaway. It's like a Daily Mail tabloid, but positive, you know, where they just try to get you. You just want to get someone in the sentence with whatever scandal. You got me in the sentence with Anne Hathaway. I should correct a photograph of Wario because he's not a real person, so he's never been photographed. Have you seen an illustration of Wario? I Googled it. Okay. You know, I'm turning 42. What can you do? Wow. Birthday weeks. Yeah. Birthday weeks upcoming. It's pretty exciting. Yeah. Leo season. We got the Odyssey for us. That's it. I think we'll. What we'll do on Monday is certainly want to hear Chris's thoughts at length of the movie. I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to see it again. I don't know. I'd like to because I do feel like more will be revealed the more times you take a look. And then we're going to rank the Nolan movies, and I think we might have to just do two separate rankings. I think you and Chris can work together and be the normal Nolan people, and then I'll do whatever journey I'm on with trying to figure out how I feel about his movies. That seems fair, right? So you guys don't have to be poisoned by the takes of mine. I don't think that that's in the spirit of this podcast or the future content and material. You want to broker with me about. Brokering with Chris over Inception. is tough brokering with me over inception is tough yeah but you know you you just don't listen but i like interstellar more than you do yeah that's all your dad stuff what dad stuff what i love being a dad sure i love being a son that's really beautiful thank you thanks for saying that this is a movie about a dad sure son yeah thanks to jack sanders for his production work on this episode thanks to lucas kavanaugh for work behind the scenes we'll see you next week go see the odyssey endless summer escapes start here travel the worlds of netflix irl inspired by fan favorites like stranger things and squid game brave the upside down face off with the front man play leveled up arcade games shop exclusive merch and enjoy themed food and drinks beat the heat play eat and shop on repeat at netflix house at galleria dallas bring your crew and save get your tickets today at netflix.com slash house hank joined bj's wholesale club the day he became a father of 30 i coach football now coach hank saves up to 25 off grocery store prices 30 pounds of pasta three cases of protein bars 75 sports drinks and that's just pre-game he knows teamwork and bj's knows savings this is your home coach home of the save join for just 20 dollars at bjs.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months open soon limited time offer new members only bj's home of the save