The Odyssey Episode

"This is an I-hike podcast." Guaranteed human. It's the U.S. Open, which means the tennis world is about to lose its mind. And I'm here for every second of it. Join me, Renee Stubbs, on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast, as I break it all down. The matches that matter, the drama that doesn't, and the stories everyone's talking about. No cliches, no sugarcoating, just host analysts, from someone who's actually been there. Coco, looking real good, her serve looks so much smoother than it has in the past. I was really happy to see Yiga back to what she looked like a couple of years ago and she was winning dominantly. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the iHot Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On Big Lives, we take a single cultural icon. People like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Little Richard. And we pull apart the story behind the image, discovering forgotten interviews that change exactly how we see these giants of our culture. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I'm Emmanuel Jochi, I'm Kai Wright, and this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives on the iHot Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, here's the thing I talk to actor, Stephen Root. I'm a people watcher. You see that guy going down the drain though? Yeah, I can use that. And open igloo co-founder, Alia Muhammad. I love staying on top of what is going on in our city, what is on renter's minds. And taking all of that knowledge to build a platform, that hopefully is going to make New York City better in the long run. Listen to here's the thing on the iHot Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHot Radio. Hey and welcome to the Epic Cast, this is Josh. There's Chuck Jerry's here too, we're all wearing breast plates. And that means this is Stuff You Should Know, to protect our jest. Yes, I'm also wearing a cod piece, but that's not unusual for me to protect your cod. I know, why is it called that fish of the day? What if you dated somebody who referred to that as your cod? Wouldn't you be like, please stop calling it that? Yeah, it's like, do you mind giving me some privacy? I'm in here washing my god, right? They would say, I'm sorry, I majored in the Canterbury Tales. What a weird way to start the Odyssey. I know, I know, and you're the one who wrote those lines, so I know this is true. Yeah, we're talking about the Odyssey. You saw the Odyssey and you were like, how's the Odyssey work and here we are, right? Yeah, I saw the movie. I thought it was really good. I am no Christopher Nolan fanboy. I'm about 50/50 with him, maybe 60/40 with ones I like. Which ones do you like, aside from a Minto, obviously? Well, I like to a Minto. I liked the prestige. I liked the Batman movies. Didn't love, I mean, Oppenheimer was quote unquote good, I guess, but it was a bit of a slog for me and I never wanted to see it again. I could see that. I think you and I had the same problems with Interstellar. I did not see Tenant because I heard it was so bad, so yeah, he sort of hit or missed for me, but I really thought the Odyssey was great and it kind of hit me after. I saw it. I was like, it's kind of just crazy this idea that this story that's this old, like one of the oldest stories, like can still resonate with an audience in 2026. And like, what is it about that story itself? And I knew nothing about just the Odyssey as a literary piece and I didn't know much about Homer. Like, that was an English major, but we didn't, I guess I didn't do the classes where we studied this stuff. Well, in your defense, it was written in Ionic, not English, so. Yeah, good point. So yeah, I can totally see where you're coming from it, that this story has legs, I guess, is how you'd put it. Yeah, it's just kind of fascinating to me as a piece of work. For sure. And let's talk about this piece of work because there's a lot to talk about, not just recounting the highlights of the story and spoiling the movie, I guess, for anybody who hasn't paid attention over less like 2000, something years. If you can't spoil something written in the eighth century, then I'm just sorry. Yeah, yeah, so about almost 3000 years ago, the 700s BCE, right? That's where they think Homer first put this to paper, but the whole thing, and it's attributed to the Greek poet Homer, who I guess this would have been post Bronze Age, like after the Bronze Age collapse, I think, is when Homer was walking around, if Homer was even walking around, we'll talk about in a second. Yeah. But they attribute both the Odyssey and the Iliad, which is kind of the prequel to the Odyssey, to Homer. And they think there was first written down, like I said, in the 700s, the eighth century BCE, but that it was probably around way longer than that because the whole thing is set up as a form of oral storytelling. Yeah, I mean, you know, just you mentioned quickly that it was sort of a sequel, or the Iliad was a, did you say prequel? You bet I did. Well, the Odyssey is 24 books, one book for each letter of the Greek alphabet, but the Iliad that you were talking about talks about Agamemnon's return from the Trojan War, and then the Odyssey basically covers Odysseus, his return from the very long delayed return from the Trojan War. And what was your question that you asked before I sidetracked us? Do you remember? I asked you, what Christopher Nolan movies you like? Yes, he said the right before that. That's the last question I remember asking you. Oh, that's okay. But I think I know what you said. Something about it being an oral tradition that was much older, right? Yeah. Yeah, I must have said right. That's right. That was my question. Am I right? I can't believe how good we are at this 18 years in. 18 years in? It astounds me sometimes. Masters. I know. It's almost like we're bus sleepwalking right now. No, no, no, not sleepwalk. On the phone. So we don't know how closely the Odyssey, you know, resembles the story that Homer told in 700s because you were right. It was an oral story. It was an oral tradition and it was supposed to be told by memorizing it and retelling it by, you know, from Bards telling a story to people in a crowd, maybe changing a thing for two. You know, the idea is that it's pretty likely that this thing was a little bit like a game of telephone, right? Yeah, you know, like as you learned it and you passed it on, you could kind of embellish it in this way. You're like, I don't really care that much about the siren. So I'm not going to give them as much play as maybe the guy who taught you how to say this did. And then it really started to take its final shape. Again, when it was finally put to Papyrus, I want to say pen to paper, but probably quill to the Tyrus is how it was first done, right? I love that. That's when it really kind of started to take a solid form because now it was like, now you just basically copied it, right? You didn't have to memorize it or anything like that. But that it was far from the only like legend or tale of like Greek culture and Greek heroics and like Greek more lessons and all that, right? But it was just for some reason, I don't think anyone's really put their finger on, it just has resonated throughout the years. So it's the one that we tend to think of when we think of this whole stuff. But it was a cornerstone of Greek culture. Like this is just part of your indoctrination into growing up in ancient Greek culture, you knew the Iliad among other things, or the Odyssey, probably the Iliad too, among other things you'd at least heard it probably more than once. And then finally Plato comes along and he's like, this is all rubbish. We need to start using our noodles. So he tried to actually bam the Odyssey and it didn't take because people love it that much. That's right. It lived on. You mentioned it was an Ionic Greek, which is an Asiatic dialect. And it's been gone for more than 2000 years. So if you're wondering how we got to the point where Christopher Nolan is working on a screenplay adapted from a 21st century novelized version, I guess. It's sort of a winding road. The first print copy came around in 1488. And it was produced in Italy in that Ionic Greek. And then I guess about 100 years later or so, or at least in the next century, it was finally translated to some European languages, some actual living languages. And then in 1616, we got our first English translation of this epic poem from a British poet named George Chapman. That's a pretty British name if I've ever heard one. Yeah, for sure. So yeah. So then now it starts to come into our awareness, our understanding. And him translating it and then other people translating it from the original, we talked a little bit about just the original oral translations. But when you finally get to written translations, it also took a bit of a winding road, obviously. Yeah, because the thing was written originally or created originally to be spoken. And And it actually follows a specific meter, like the rhythm that you're supposed to say it in. It's called Homeric hexameter or dectilic hexameter, I've also seen, it's where you, there's six, in each line, there's six three syllable units. And then there's three syllable units, these dactyls. The first syllable is stressed, and then the next two are not stressed. So it's like, hi, how are you doing? Today guy, right? Do you have to sing it? I actually, I saw somebody, a video of somebody, not only reading it in English, but reading it in Ionic. Oh, wow. Yeah, and I couldn't tell any difference from somebody just reading it normally, but that's not something that literally translates very well into other languages, including English. So these, the translators basically had to make some big decisions, essentially. Yeah, I mean, it's almost like translating the Bible, through the various translations of the Bible over the years, there was, each time someone's doing that, they're writers that are doing that. So each version's going to be a little bit different. You know, a language, especially in the case of a poem, it's going to have a unique rhythm, but people's native tongue have unique rhythms as well, and just where they're from. They're unique cultural experiences that happen. Some of these translate better than others, I guess. And so, you know, you're really, you know, you're not rewriting in like, I don't think people made up like a ton of stuff out of whole cloth, but making it relevant for the audience that they're writing it for, which would have been in their language for the people in their country, because they wanted them to get something out of it. Yes, yeah. Most translators have ignored the, there's a joke in one of the books about laying with a goat, and it just does not translate well into modern times. Right. Gotta leave that one behind. And the other thing is, you know, there's a few things here. You're translating from a dead language, which is a big deal. We already mentioned that they were things meant to be spoken aloud to something red, which is going to change it. And then it's just something that's just thousands of years old that you have to make sense. So it's a, it's a hard job. Right. It's a hard-knock life for translators of the Odyssey. That's right. That's what Annie said. Yeah, so there, there were some, there's some, like, stand out translations over the years. But the one that everyone's talking about right now is from Emily Wilson. And she, I think, did hers in 2017, 2017, is how most people say that. Right. And she basically, she turned it into English heroic couplets, which is basically a tea-drinking way of saying exactly the kind of rhyming pairs that you hear in any modern song. Yeah. And this is the one that Christopher Nolan used specifically to adapt his version of the story on screen. I think we should probably talk a little bit about the Homeric question, because you teased earlier the, if Homer was really a person. And it's sort of one of these things where, you know, we don't have any hard facts when it comes to Homer, like, everything that we know, historians, literary historians have surmised from reading the text. Like, well, it's written in this language. So he's probably from this place that spoke that language, like stuff that makes sense, though. Yeah, no, there's plenty of stuff that makes sense. It's more just like a question of, like, did he actually exist if he was a bard, if he was a group of people? It's very similar to that Shakespeare question, too. For sure, in an episode on. But there, I mean, just even though everything is a guess that we've kind of compiled from Homer, strictly from, I guess, his own writing. I don't think he's referenced in any other, like, historical text or anything like that. It's just the stuff he's writing about just kind of lines up. And they think that he was probably from Ionia, which is along the west coast of Turkey today, because the whole thing was written in Ionic. And he almost certainly lived during this age that they attributed to. And they also are like, it's possible that he might be a known historic blind bard named Dematicus. Dematicus. Yeah. That's the hardest one I think out of this whole article. Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a character in the Odyssey that, like, a lot of spaces devoted to. And so I think there are people who are like, I wonder if this is just a stand-in for him, because boy, there's a lot of stuff in there about this, you know, minor character. Right, it's like, and let me sing the praises about Dematicus' cod. Yeah. There's this verse, chapter, verse about that. A lot of stuff. So I also think we should talk before we break about sort of a central concept because in Act 2, everybody, we're going to give you the Cliffs Notes version of the Odyssey. Yeah. It's very exciting. I'm very excited. But we should, a little bit more before we get into that is sort of conceptually what the Odyssey was about in a lot of ways was a homecoming in hospitality, which are no-stose and Zenia and ancient Greece. And these two things were like really big deals and ancient Greece that figured heavily in like their life and culture. Yeah, they're not only like things that you should do to be like a good host, there are actual like rules that you have to follow. And if you don't, you're actually upsetting Zeus because this is Zeus, the king of the gods, the real gods god, if you ask other gods. This is his divine law that he's passed down. That's how important these rules for treating guests are. So yeah, that Zenia is a big deal. And the rules specifically are if you happen to hop through town and you're not gonna stranger store, they're supposed to say, come on in. Yeah, I don't need to know anything. Here's some food, here's some wine. Once you go, I'll draw you a hot bath. Sure. And then we'll get to why you're here. And also while you're doing this stuff, like maybe while you're in the bathtub, I'm gonna stand sentry out front with my sword and make sure you stay nice and safe. Yeah, you have to guarantee their protection while they're staying at your home. Yeah, like a heaping help in a hospitality is what you're supposed to offer a stranger according to Zenia, right? For sure. That figures in so much to the story that essentially entire groups and individuals are characterized by how they treat strangers, how they act as guests, how they act as hosts. Like this is a really important thread that goes through all of the Odyssey. That's Zenia. Then there's also no toast, right? Yeah, homecoming. I mean, that's basically what the Odyssey is. It's about somebody coming home. And this was a very big deal in Greek society because they were sea fares. They were adventurers and wanderers by sea. And so they would go out a lot and coming home was a big deal. They would be separated from their family. They would have these brutal sea journeys. And so coming home was a very big deal. And so it's no surprise that these two sort of prominent things that figure in Greek culture and society at the time were sort of the two big themes of the Odyssey. Right. If you're in high school and you have a crush on somebody who likes to read the classics, just go up to him and say, would you like to go to No Stokes with me? And they will, they'll be putty in your hand after that. That's great. I'd start a Moby Dick, by the way. Just so everyone knows, it's officially happening. Awesome. How's it going so far? Well, I read chapter one and then I watched that, you know, I mentioned the Rob Delaney podcast that he's doing with the professor. And so I'm going to do that in lockstep. So I did that and then I watched their chapter one recap and it's helping a lot. I like it so far. That's awesome. Yeah, keep us posted, will you? I will, so far, so good. Okay. So that was, I think we covered Xenia and No Stokes pretty well. And that's probably a pretty good place to break, right? Yeah. And everyone, hold on your hats, because act two, we're going to go over these books of the Odyssey. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers with the "Hey, Jonas" podcast. We've been catching up with some great friends, Paul Rod, Michael Boublay, Seth Meyers, Nile Horan, Jake Shane, and making some new friends while getting into what's really like to have sisters, like Alex National. She likes to control everyone and talk everyone. Okay, well, control is a harsh word. I would say that's a harsh word. I am more outspoken, growing up a lot of the times because she was so quiet. I would speak for like the both of us. Now I'm working on like thinking a moment, really now I'm thinking before I speak. And Joey King. You know, if your mom is yelling at your sibling, and even if you're annoyed with your sibling, you just won't let that slide. It's like, you only can yell at your sibling. I'm like, you can't do that here. That is not what I want about her like that. I just want to talk about her like that. Plus, we've been taking your calls, listening to your voice mails and giving advice, or at least trying to. So, if you've got catching up to do, now's the perfect time. Listen to "Hey, Jonas," on the "I Heart Ready" [BLANK_AUDIO] Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. - By age or rather in or so, at least 70% have a phone. - Middle school is a different world than the one we grew up in. I'm Dr. Joy and this is therapy for black girls. We spent real time on it in our surviving middle school run, bringing in a child psychologist and a psychiatrist who's raising two black girls of his own to talk about what's really going on with our kids right now. - So it's literally physiological and neurological, psychological chaos happening all the same time. - We got into group chats and gaming, friendships and bullying, and how to tell the difference between healthy monitoring and the kind of surveillance that erodes trust. - You're belonging. You could think of belonging as I can be myself and I can still be accepted. And then they're fitting in. Fitting in says I have to change who I am in order to avoid rejection. - Then we turned the conversation toward the fathers, sitting down with therapists, cure gains on black fatherhood and what it means to raise a daughter through this stage. - You don't have more shorts so you can't do flips, you have one to dress you up across your legs. - That's the range of this run. From screen time to identity to the fathers doing the work at home. - You have to get off her device. But the reality is there's a lot of life out there that we don't want you as your adult in the life to miss out on. - This has been our surviving middle school run. Brought to you by the people who spin their career thinking about exactly this. I'm Dr. Joy. Listen to therapy for black girls on the I-Hort Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. - Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City. On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's health and midlife directly to you. - A hundred percent of women go through menopause. It can be such a struggle for our quality of life. But even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it? - The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything I never used to forget things. They're concerned that one, they have dementia. And the other one is, do I have ADHD? - There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids to sleep better, to have less pain, to have better mood, and also to have better day-to-day life. - Listen to decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Pointer on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening now. - Lending stuff with Joshua Charles, stuff you should go. - All right, I'm back with Josh. He's screwed his head back onto his body. - Cartoon style. - And if you don't know what Chuck's referring to, that means we edited that thing out. - Oh, perhaps you never know. But we're going to kind of do, like I said, the Cliffs Notes version of the Odyssey. Spoilers will abound if you haven't seen the film. And you really don't want to know a thing about it. Then don't listen to this chapter, but I think it might help going in to know a little bit about the story if you really don't know anything. And I'll also point out the actors who feature in who they play. How's that? - I think that's great. Can you also do their voices, maybe? - No, I can't do any of those voices. - You can do a great Matt Damon. How about them, apples? - You can. - Exactly. That actually sounded like Matthew McConaughey trying to do a Matt Damon. - It sort of did. - All right, so let's get started, Chuck. We start with book one. And actually this kind of covers books one through four. And we find we start the Trojan War has ended 10 years before. And the Trojan War itself has taken 10 years. So it's been 20 years since our hero, literally the hero of the story Odysseus. - Matt Damon. - Yes. Which I'm not crazy about that casting, I'm sorry. - There's a lot of people upset about this casting. - Yes, not him, like all kinds of the casting. - No, everybody's like Matt Damon's fine. So he's been gone for 20 years. And from what I understand, like this was initially considered a fairly quick errand. The Trojan War started because Paris stole Helen of Troy. And now the, I think everybody kind of set out to get her back. And it turned into this 10 year Trojan War. - That's right. Helen of Troy is played by Lupita Nyongo in this film. And Elon Musk is so mad about that. He's going to make his own AI version that he thinks is more historically accurate. That's what he said. - I heard about that. I'm waiting for its IPO. - I'm sure it's going to be great. So Matt Damon is Odysseus. He's been gone for those 20 years. Like you said, he has a wife named Penelope, played by Ann Hathaway in this film. And he has a son called Telemachus, who's played by Tom Holland, who you might know more as Spider-Man. - Yeah. - All right, so where we pick up with them, they are living in their big house. They're many mentioned. And there are a hundred suitors buying for Odysseus' throne and the hand of Penelope to marry. The most villainous in the film, at least, is Antonis, played by Robert Pattinson. - I bet he does a great job. - He's great. The acting is really, really good in this entire film. But these guys are all living there, kind of really have made themselves at home, let's just say, and not keeping up their end of the Xenia bargain, which is, I don't even know if he mentioned, as a guest, you're also supposed to be awesome in return in these guys are not. - Oh yeah, we left that out. It was, it's not just incumbent on the host. - That's right. - So yeah, they're being pretty terrible. And one of the main things they're doing as suitors, this whole hundred of them, who've taken over Odysseus' home, they're like really pressing Penelope to be like, your husband's dead, it's been 20 years. You need to choose a husband to sit on the throne next to you and become King of Ithaca, who are you going to choose? And she keeps Heming and Haing, Heming literally because she says that when she finishes the funeral shroud that she's weaving for Odysseus' elderly father, Gary, she will make this decision, right? And then every night after she has woven all day, she goes and undoes the weaving that she did that day so that she will never finish. And this, I guess, the suitors are all idiots and it's working quite well because they still haven't caught on, I guess. - You know, sometimes when we get emails that are like, I can't believe Josh said that Odysseus' father's name was Gary. Didn't he read it or do his research? I wonder if people even know you. - I did too. - After 18 years, you know? - So Baron Desert Dry. - Like, get with the people. He knows it's not Gary. - Chuck, I love how well you know me. Thanks, man. - I mean, you still fool me. So I guess I shouldn't throw stones. - I'm going to take issue with that. You're, there's probably 98% of the time you're just like moving on. Not that you don't think it's funny. Not that you don't get it. You're just like, we're burning up time here. That's enough of your shenanigans. I'm just going to let that sit. - All right, thanks, Gary. So Penelope and telemicus are, you know, it's been 20 years. So they're also, they're also losing hope that dad and husband are gone, like for good. So Athena played by Zendaya in the film. The goddess of wisdom and warfare. She's on Odysseus' side this whole time. She's like, hey, kid, why don't you go out and like actually do something and see if you can find out if your dad's alive. That'd be a good start. - Is, I'm guessing Zendaya does a great job or Zendaya. - Is it Zendaya? Yeah, she's, she's awesome. She's a really good actor. I think in everything. - I read recently that people thought of her as like a nepo baby or something like that. I don't know where that's coming from. And I think she's really good at everything I've ever seen her in. - Who are her parents? - Are they? - I don't know. I don't know. I'll have to go back and double check that. But I saw somebody reference it. And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. She's great. - Yeah, she's great. And she was also in Spider-Man, the movies. So it's a reunion of sorts. - Yes. And Benny, I can't remember. He's one of the creators of Uncut Gems. - Benny Safty. - Yes. He's in this movie. And he directed Robert Pattinson in good time. - That's right. He plays Benny Safty plays Agamendmon. - Yeah. - Man, look at all this. - Yeah. - Go ahead, though. I'm sorry for sidetracking us so badly. - Oh, that's okay. So she says, why don't you go out and see if your dad's still alive. He goes and meets with John Bernthal from The Walking Dead who plays King of the Lais and Sparta. And from him learns, hey, your dad's alive. He's sort of being held captive, but in the best way, you can be held captive on Calipso's Island. And that's where book five picks up. - Right. Calipso is a nymph, a goddess nymph, who has basically turned Odysseus into a sex toy after he washed up on her island after a shipwreck, which will come to later. That's another cool thing about the Odyssey. It's not completely linear. It actually spins around. There's different, like this entire part we're talking about is a flashback, as we'll see. - This is starting with book five, yes. Thank you. And so Calipso falls in love with Odysseus. And she's like, don't forget, I'm a goddess nymph, not just a nymph. So I can make you stay here and she does. colds him captive there. I think something like seven years. And then finally, Athena, who has really chosen Odysseus as like one of her favorite humans, then really intervenes on his behalf throughout this whole, I guess, Odyssey. She goes to Zeus and is like, you got to get this guy out of Calypso's clutches. And Zeus is like, sure, I'll see what I can do. Calypso, by the way, is played by Charlize Theron. So again, he was being held captive as a sex slave for seven years to Charlize Theron and still wants to leave. Right. He's like, my god, it's exhausted. So he has resumed his journey home to Ithaca. He leaves on a raft. Poseidon is a real jerk throughout this whole story. Really doesn't like Odysseus. So he destroys-- Who plays Poseidon? No one plays Zeus or Poseidon in this. Oh, there they see GI? No, no, no, they bite your tongue. He uses very little CGI. Yeah, I heard it's all practical effects, but I don't understand what you mean. They're just off-screen. They're not in the movie, like at all. They're just referenced. Yeah, exactly. Like Poseidon really did me dirty. Yeah. Okay. So he Poseidon wrecks the raft as punishment because he blinded his son, which was a cyclops. And we'll get to that in a minute because that's coming by way of flashback a little bit later. And Odysseus is shipwrecked once again and taken in by the, I guess, the facions. And they are showing some serious zine. They are like great hosts to him. Say, come on into the royal court. Here's everything you need in the way of food and wine and protection. Right. And the reason we said that book five starts as a flashback because Odysseus is being really well taken care of by the facians. And the facian king, I guess one night, while they're feasting, says, "Hey, man, tell us your story. What's going on with you, buddy?" And Odysseus basically tells the story of the Odyssey. Everything he's been through up to that point. And this is kind of, I mean, this is the part where everybody's like, when they talk about the Odyssey, this is the stuff they're talking about where he's recounting his adventures in flashback to the facians. That's right. And this is the real flashback, I guess, I mean, we sort of misspoke earlier, but I think everyone gets it, right? Sure. Okay. Great. This is the part where Matt Damon goes, as soon as Odysseus leaves with his big fleet of ships, they're about 600 soldiers. They're all headed home from the war at Troy once again. Athena sends some storms that way, beer the ships off course. Athena's mad at this point about war crimes that they committed in the battles when they conquered Troy. And they landed the land of the lotus eaters, which are, you know, they're eating lotus, so they're very blissful. And they're basically sort of doing drugs. Yeah. And Odysseus is screwed, was like, this place is awesome. Can we stay here? Yeah. I was curious what that's an allegory for, what drug or whatever, you know, I mean, I guess it was Lotus at the time, right? I guess, but I've tried Lotus and it doesn't get you messed up. Okay. But yes, this is what these people were doing. And Odysseus' crew was like, I'm not sure we need to keep going back home. Like, this is pretty great. These Lotus' are amazing. The Lotus' eaters are great people. Let's just stay here. Odysseus has to drag every single one of his men, all 600 of them back to their ships where he ties them up until he finally gets the last one and is able to sail again from the land of the lotus eaters. That is far and away, the best experience that these guys have on the odyssey as a whole. Because the next thing that happens to them is actually the turning point that really brings on everything else. All of their misfortune, they seem to have started and then Odysseus really drives at home on the island of the Cyclops. That's right. Obviously one-eyed beasts, cannibalistic even. And they're end up trapped in a cave there. We mentioned Poseidon's son as a Cyclops. That's polyphemous. And he's just eating these guys. If you see the movie, this is an actual puppet. It is not CGI, which is incredible. It's amazing, yeah. And Odysseus blinds polyphemous to get everyone out of there out of the cave and they are able to flee the Cyclops and then suffer another attack by a tribe of giant cannibals called the Lestregonians. Yeah, nice work. So I just want to go back to is it polyphemous or polyphemous? I would say polyphemous. Okay. So like you said, he's a son of Poseidon. I read that Odysseus and his men came onto the island of the Cyclops and just started eating all of polyphemous's sheep and basically made terrible guests of themselves. Is that not correct? Well, I don't know if that's in the movie. I can't remember. Okay, but either way, I read that it wasn't just completely one-sided that polyphemous was wronged first at any rate after they escaped the Lestregonians. This is another tribe of giants, but I believe they're more human-like, right? They're not in the movie either. Okay, everything I know about the Odyssey. I know from a little research and then seeing that movie. Okay, gotcha. Yeah. So in the book, the Lestregonians, they come right after the Cyclops. And they are another tribe of giant cannibals. But from what I saw, they're more human-like soldiers, but giant. They eat a bunch of guys. And after that, there's the shipwreck. And the reason why there's the shipwreck is because polyphemous son of Poseidon prays to his father and says, "Please mess Odysseus's junk up." That's right. And so they end up on the island of Cersei, who was a goddess sort of enchantress, sort of portrayed like, sort of witch-like. And she falls in love with Odysseus. She turns the guys, his dudes, into pigs. And Odysseus gets a little help from the gods and forces her to turn them back into men so they can get on with stuff. Yeah, I read that that was the coolest, most disturbing scene in the whole movie. Is that right? I mean, I don't know. It was great. Okay, so Odysseus ends up getting kind of hooked up by Cersei, who basically says, head on to the land of the dead, because you're going to get a lot of important valuable information there. He meets Agamemnon there, who was killed in the Iliad. And he meets his mom there, which is nice. And then, most importantly, he meets Tyrecius, who is a prophet of Apollo, who, as a side note, became a woman for seven years, kind of interesting. And then Tyrecius basically says, you really need to make an offer to Poseidon. Some sort of sacrifice or something, because he's really mad that you blinded polyphemus, his son, the Cyclops. And one other thing, this is very important, do not let anyone eat the sun god's sacred cattle on the island of Helios. You're going to end up on Helios, by the way. I'm a prophet, so I know. Yeah. So he says, all right, check. Do not eat sacred cattle. Got it. So before going on to Ithaca Odysseus goes back to Cersei's island, she's like, I'm going to hook you up even further. Here's some beeswax, because you're not going to want to hear that siren song. Sure. Protect all your guys. You need to steer towards Silla, because as we'll see, there's a very narrow sort of passage, this very fraught. Yeah. And she says, go towards Silla and not, not, uh, caribdus, because that's the bad way. And also, by the way, I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but man, do not eat any of that guy's cattle. So now the second person to mention this, which suggests strongly that they are definitely going to eat the cattle. Yeah, for sure. So, uh, after leaving Cersei's island and setting sail, remember, every time they set sail, they're going toward home, toward Ithaca, and they just keep getting delayed and shipwrecked, and, and Poseidon's really messing with them, uh, as per polyphemus's request. The next challenge that they go to is the sirens, which is why Cersei's, like you said, gave Odysseus earwax, and Odysseus is like, I got to see what all this is about. So he gives the earwax to all of his men and says, "lash me to the mast. I want to hear it, but no matter what I say while I'm under the spell of the siren song, do not untie me." Yeah. And apparently it works out pretty great. Yeah. He, he, uh, he makes it through that. Uh, they all survive. And then they reach that straight that Cersei had warmed him about, uh, which has monsters on both sides. That's, uh, Silla and, uh, Caribdus. On the Silla side, you got a six-headed beast who are, who's going to eat you? On the Caribdus side, you're going to encounter some massive whirlpools that will destroy your ship, like it's going down a toilet. And so Odysseus is like, all right, she said to steer, to avoid the whirlpool and steal toward, steer toward that monster towards Silla. And they do that and the monster eats a lot of those guys, but Odysseus managed to escape with, with all, but I think like six guys that get eaten. Right. Which is a pretty good trade-off. It's like a utility Terry and Leicester of two evils, right? Lose the whole ship to the whirlpool, or lose six guys to Silla. It's a pretty smart move, honestly. And if you're like, wow, he really didn't have a good option, that's because caught between Silla and Corribdus is the original version of caught between a rock and a hard place. That's where that came from. - That's right. So they eventually landed Helios, the Sacred Cattle are everywhere. They've gotten the two warnings by now. And of course, like Josh said, the Odysseus's men eat that cattle pretty quickly. And more divine punishment is rot upon them. And Zeus, because Helios is like, you gotta do something here, Zeus. Zeus destroys the ship when it departs the island. And at this point now, Odysseus is the only one still living, and he washes a shore to meet Calypso. And that is where the flashback ends. - Right. And then so let's go take a break, and we're gonna come back and wrap up the Odyssey and talk a little more about what it means for everybody. - All right, we'll be right back. (upbeat music) - Hey everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers with the "Hey Jonas" podcast. We've been catching up with some great friends, Paul Rudd, Michael Wubley, Seth Meyers, Niall Horan, Jake Shane, and making some new friends while getting into what's really like to have sisters, like Alex Nassian Earl. - She likes to control everyone and tell everyone to go. - Okay, well control is a harsh word. Now I'm working on like, thinking a moment, feeling it and thinking before I speak. - And Joey King. - You know if your mom is yelling at your sibling and even if you're annoyed with your sibling, you just won't let that slide. That is not what I want talk about her like that. - I just want to talk about her like that. - Plus we've been taking your calls, listening to your voicemails and giving advice or at least trying to. - So if you've got catching up to do now is the perfect time. Listen to "Hey Jonas" on the iHeart ReadyWap Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Joey and this is Therapy for Black Girls. - So it's literally physiological and neurological and psychological chaos, I mean, all of the same job. - We got into group chats and gaming, friendships and bullying, and how to tell the difference between healthy monitoring and the kind of surveillance that a road's trust. - You're belonging, you could think of belonging as, I can be myself and I can still be accepted. Fitting in says, I have to change who I am in order to avoid rejection. - Then we turn the conversation toward the fathers, sitting down with therapists care gains on black fatherhood and what it means to raise a daughter through this stage. - You don't have more shorts so you can't do flips, you have on the dress you have to cross your legs. Brought to you by the people who spend their careers thinking about exactly this. I'm Dr. Joy. Listen to therapy for black girls on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adrian Health Institute in New York City. They're concerned that one, they have dementia and the other one is do I have ADHD? - There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids to sleep better, to have less pain, to have better mood and also to have better day-to-day life. Elizabeth Pointer on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts are wherever you're listening now. ♪ Lending stuff with Joshua Chalves, stuff you should go ♪ - Okay, Chuck, now we're at book 12. The last 12 books are about his homecoming, his No Stost, which shares the root with nostalgia. And like you said, the facians are excellent hosts. So they get them directly to Ithaca, finally get them home, but his homecoming is not just him showing up and everything's great. Like his kingdom has fallen to shreds in the 20 years that he's been gone. Penelope's been doing everything she can to hold it all together, but she can only do so much. So he's got to disguise himself, which he does as a beggar to kind of get the lay of the land, to figure out how to put things right again. - That's right. So in disguise, only his old dog and his childhood nurse played by John Lake-Wizzano. - Really? - Recognize him, but he doesn't sell him out. He keeps it a secret. And he is being mistreated at the palace by the suitors, of course, who I think we've established or big jerks. Telemachus returns from his journey. And he's like, all right, this is my son. He's a grown-up Spider-Man now. And when I left him, he was just a little kid. And so I got to at least meet this guy and reveal myself to him. And he does that, so he reveals himself to his son, at least. - He does. And his son's like, great. Let's figure out how to get the house back, right? And your kingdom and everything. So they get together and start planning how to get everything back. And meanwhile, Penelope's finally like, okay, my husband is dead. And I'm going to hold a contest for all of you suitors whoever can shoot an arrow through 12 axe heads in a row, which only Odysseus has been able to do. Whoever can do that, I will marry. And so they hold a contest or she does in every single one of the hundred suitors misses. Can't do it. Then Odysseus is the bigger is like, can I have my try? And she allows it. And he successfully shoots the arrow through the 12 axe heads. And she knows that that's Odysseus. But she still has a test for him. - That's right. Well, before that, though, the big part of that is being able to string that bow. Because apparently it's just some bow that's so powerful that no one has ever been able to even string it. - Wow. - So Odysseus, of course, once he strings that thing, everyone's like, oh, is that the dude? - Okay. - And then the shooting the arrow through is almost like the cherry on top. - Gotcha. Okay. And then of course the suitors are like, well, if they suspect who he is or now they know who he is, a huge battle takes place with Odysseus and Telemachus vanquishing is probably the best word for it. All hundred suitors, right? And I'm sure it's very satisfying to see them all get there, do you? - Yeah, they get there, do. And after the battle, Penelope, who is at this point, she's like, I think that might be my guy. Like, first of all, he looks just like him. - Right. - In second of all, he could string that bow and no one else could. And then he made that shot. So it's just one of those things where you have to suspend disbelief a little bit. It's an ancient text, 'cause you would think as soon as her husband walks through the door, he'd be like, honey, I'm home. And she's like, oh my God, it's you. - Sure. - But she suspects that it's him and confirms it in this way. In front of Odysseus, she's asked for a servant to move their marital bed. Like, hey, can you move this over here? I'm doing a little redecorating. And Odysseus knows he was like, you can't move that thing. I carved that bed from a still live olive tree. So that thing is still like literally rooted to the ground. And I know that it can't be moved. And she's like, it is him. - Yeah. And so they get back together. It's very sweet, I'm sure. Their telemacus is there. Everything's going really great. Then a civil war breaks out among the suitors families who many of them are ready to avenge the death of their family members. And before things can get really out of hand, Athena, who's also the goddess of war. In addition to wisdom steps in and says, stop this war. That's enough war for now. And everybody lays down their arms. And Odysseus is finally home and things are back to normal. It's like the end of a Brady Bunch episode. Everything's just back to normal. - That's right, except cousin Oliver's there. So everyone's kind of wondering where he came from. - So we should probably talk a little bit more about just the history because I wondered after I saw it, 'cause again, I hadn't studied this so I didn't know a lot about it. I was like, I mean, what about like, was any of this true? Was there a sort of stand-in for Odysseus and was there even a Trojan war and all this stuff? And it turns out like probably not, right? - Well, they do think that there is probably a Trojan war. They do think that they've kind of identified Troy. It's a, now it's a town that's called Hazarlick. There's a mountain nearby called Hazarlick. And they're like, we're pretty sure this is the actual Troy that was originally discovered in the 19th century by Heinrich Schlimen, and it shows evidence of having been burned and rebuilt time after time after time. But there's one layer, or layer seven, that they're like, "This co-insides with Homer's time," and they found some things like they found a pile of rocks that they think is slingshot, ammunition outside of the city, and they're like, "Evidence of war." Their historians seem to think that this is probably Troy, and it conceivably gives some backup to the idea that there was a Trojan War, and it did take place during Homer's time. Right. Whether or not there was a Trojan horse, there had been some archaeological finds that were pre-auticy that depicted men climbing out of a giant-wheeled horse, so you might think like, "Boom, of course there was," but a lot of people think it was probably like symbolic, or maybe a metaphor that Homer adapted. There are definitely routes and paths that they sail that are historically accurate throughout the Mediterranean Sea, although they don't know the exact path, and if that's a real thing. But they think that a lot of the stuff, like the monsters, maybe, again, symbolic about seafaring things that you had to navigate around, basically, like Silla and Carribdus are the opposing currents of the Strait of Messina, or the sirens, or maybe the shoals along the Mediterranean, that are dangerous. Right. Somebody pointed on Sicily as the Cyclops, one-eyed Cyclops, which was really destructive. Sure, it does. It seems like a stretch to me, but the idea that these are metaphors for navigating conditions that you have to look out for makes a lot of sense, because these stories were told by seafaring people, so that definitely holds a lot of weight, for sure. Yeah. My initial question is like, why is this thing still interesting to people? It's because the story. It is a truly timeless story, and it has a lot of universal appeal, because it's about homecoming, and everyone can identify with that kind of thing at one point. A hero's struggle, that's certainly nothing new, like that's still a thing, and almost every movie. There's coming of age. There's regret. There's adventure. There's family. There's good guys and bad guys. It's like a lot of just the tenants of great movie making are just kind of right there in black and white, or, I guess, Papyrus and whatever color they printed ink with. Right. I think it also goes to show. It touches on values that are so universal, at least, to Western eyes and ears, that we still hold those same values today. They still make sense to us. They don't seem totally foreign. Yeah. Exactly. What else you got? Anything else? Yeah. I mean, there's been adaptations over the years. Beyond this movie, obviously, 1922, The Novel Ulysses by James Joyce was a big one, because Ulysses is the Latin version of Odysseus, and that's what he's writing about in that. There was a great novel. I haven't read it, but I want to Margaret Atwood in 2005 wrote a novel called The Penelope Ed, The Penelope Ed? How do you say that? The Penelope Ed is what I'm talking about. The Penelope Ed, I guess. Yeah, like the Iliad in Penelope. It's Penelope. She combined those two because it's the Odyssey told from Penelope's point of view. Yeah. That's kind of cool. And then Obrother Warrathau is obviously an allegory for the Odyssey. I've never noticed it before. I've heard that ever since the movie came out, and I still didn't ever notice it, but I wonder now if I went back and watched it if I would get it. I think so. I mean, it opens with a quote from Homer on screen. So they clearly tell you what this is up front. And George Clooney's character's name Ulysses, which is again the Latin version of Odysseus. It's their journey home. Sure. Very, you know, sort of plainly. Penelope in the movie, his wife's name is Penny, Holly Hunter. Okay. There are suitors trying to take her hand that he has to fight. Stay out of world's worth. Exactly. There's a blind profit. That is, you know, there's just a blind profit in the movie. There's just like a blind seer. The Cyclops is Big Dan Teague, the John Goodman's character. Why is he the Cyclops? Oh, he has a patch over his eye. That's right. I forgot. Yeah. So he's a Bible salesman. The sirens are like very clearly in there. They're literally singing at the creek and like they're under their trance. Cersei and the pigs is more like the Toad. They told us he was a Toad. Yeah, that's right. So it turns John Turan to a Toad instead of a swine in this case. Okay. All right. I guess I'm convinced now. Yeah. And there's also like a Poseidon's Rath is in there. There's the song, the suitors in the song when they sing Man of Constant Sorrow. It's like it's very kind of directly taken from the Odyssey and only the way that the common brothers could do something like that. They're great. They're so great. There's a sequel too, right? To the Obrother Rother? No. To the Odyssey. Yeah. The Telegany, which is about Odysseus's other son that's not mentioned in the Odyssey, but it's it's supposed that he had a son with Cersei's on that island and they produced the son Teleganus. And Teleganus is not quite as loyal to his father as Telemachus is because he goes home and kills Odysseus and he marries Penelope. Telemachus just shrugs and says, okay, well, I guess I'll marry Cersei's to get back at you and they all become immortal. That's right. They believe it was written by a Greek poet named Yugamon of Cyrene. The funny thing about this one is it was actually lost to history. So what we know about the Telegany has references from other writings about it. So maybe one day if the Odyssey is ever truly lost to history, that it will listen to this podcast to write the next version. Man, that was amazing. That's it for the Odyssey. We could turn this into a 20-part series if we wanted to, but we don't. And if you're like, I really like the movie. I really like this episode. There's so much to read about interpreting the Odyssey. That's just super fascinating. So go forth and multiply your awareness of the Odyssey. In the meantime, everybody, I think it's time for listener mail. This is about rope. Hey guys. Long time listener, I love the rope episode. I especially enjoyed the history of rope making the explanation of how something so seemingly simple is actually a pretty ingenious piece of technology. I do think you guys missed a cool opportunity, though. To talk about rope as a transformative lifting technology. I think we might have like briefly said something about raising houses, but maybe not even. While sailing ships were undoubtedly critical to connecting the world rope, especially combined with pulleys, it's what allowed us to turn human and animal muscle into something enormously more useful. Think about how much of ancient civilization depends on moving very heavy things upward, temples, city walls, aqueducts, bridges, you name it. Rope didn't just rig the ships and build civilizations, help build the civilizations themselves. Anyway, great up. So guys, thanks for making me spend the rest of the day thinking about rope, not something I expected to do if that is from Jonathan. Thanks a lot, Jonathan. You make a great case, just like you did Chuck with Comparing No Brother Worth, though, in the Odyssey. Okay. If you want to be like Jonathan and send us an awesome email, we love that kind of thing. You can wrap it up, spank it on the bottom with a sword, and send it off to [email protected]. Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. It's the US Open, which means the tennis world is about to lose its mind, and I'm here for every second of it. Join me, Renee Stubbs on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast as I break it all down. No cliches, no sugarcoating, just host analysts from someone who's actually been there. Coco, looking real good, her surf looks so much smoother than it has in the past. I was really happy to see Yiga back to what she looked like a couple of years ago when she was winning dominantly. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Emmanuel Jochi. I'm Kai Wright, and this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. An open igloo co-founder, Aliyah Mohammed. And taking all of that knowledge to build a platform that hopefully is is gonna make New York City. in the long run. Listen to Here's the thing on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.