The Nurse Who Built a $400 Million Generator Company

Most people interact with our products every day, but they just don't really realize it. So if you're at a concert, if you're at the Stanley Cup Final, if you're on a construction site, a data center construction site, road project, there's so many areas that are operating on temporary power, and you just don't see it. [Music] Energy isn't just an industry. It's how the world works. I'm Jigger Shaw, a clean energy entrepreneur. And I'm Jamie Nolan, a clean energy communications executive. Welcome to Energy Empire. Jigger, it is frickin' hot. It is hot again. Like, I am, I've newly planted native plants in my garden that I am trying to keep alive. When will it end? Well, I mean, I just think it's going to keep happening, right? Whether it was a snowcrete episode earlier this year, or whether it's the heat dome, or whatever, we're calling it this time around. Here, you know, the Department of Energy always seems to be issuing an emergency roof. To try to like save the grid. And, you know, we're just in this weird spot where I don't understand why the Department of Energy has to write the specific rulings to basically force a micromanaging of the grid. When the Environmental Protection Agency could actually do this properly within a one-year timeline to allow backup generators to actually participate as grid resources, we have gigawatts of them. I mean, do you feel like it's political post-range? It just make it appear like they're doing something and being proactive? Like, what do you think the motivation is behind doing it this way? I think the people that work in the government are not capable of like going through a one-year process. They're capable of putting out a press release and signing a 202-C letter, which is the code that that emergency ruling comes out of. But it's like a solid one-year two-year process to be able to implement this through the Environmental Protection Agency. And I don't think that people there know how to do that. So what's the impact of this? I mean, you must see power prices around the country just skyrocketing when things like this happen, right? Well, it's that, but also you can't plan for anything, right? So like, imagine that you actually have a backup diesel generator or a backup natural gas generator. You want to be a good citizen. Your air permits say very clearly you can only run a diesel generator for 100 hours or an EPA compliant generator for X number of hours. And then, you know, they issue a emergency ruling and you read about it on Twitter because Lord Almighty, no one seems to communicate well. Then you're confused. You're like, is it legal for me to participate? Is it illegal for me to communicate with these folks? How do I do this? I've got a contract with my friends at C-Power or Voltais or other people. Can I actually bid this capacity into that contract? Can I, you know, only do this when an emergency is declared by the Department of Energy or can I do this all year round? Like, because sometimes, you know, an emergency nuclear power plant goes down or a large coal plant goes down. And if you have these generator resources, you can save the grid, right? And so, you know, you want all of these resources to be enmeshed in the overall system and for everybody to know the rules. And right now, I find that all of this stuff is completely an utterly ad hoc, which just seems like the wrong way to run a sophisticated grid. I mean, absolutely. We can't say it enough. But what about the technology solutions that can help with things like this? Like, we have a guest today who has something to say on this topic. So how does this connect to this heat dome that we're experiencing and this unprecedented grid demand? I'm super excited about this. You know, Alicia Winneo is the co-founder and CFO of ANA, a mobile generator company doing roughly $400 million of business. And they started, you know, just as a, like, a distributor of generators. And then they've, you know, started this e-boss system. And now they have created basically like a hybrid vehicle. I remember when the Chevy Volt came out, like back in the Obama administration, and we all had to learn what a series generator was, like they're basically creating a series generator. Rad, well, I mean, I really love getting to know her. I think she's a really interesting path. And so I'm really excited to talk to her about her. She started out as a registered nurse. But I really am excited about this idea about how they are cutting the carbon emissions from these temporary generators that you see popping up all over the place for, like, to support concerts, construction projects, data centers, like events as big as the Super Bowl. Well, and people don't really understand how pervasive this is. You know, like when you're buying a new home, a lot of the temporary mobile homes that they sell new homes out of or running off of this generator, like many municipalities across the country regularly rent these generators to run like their Memorial Day Parade, or their Fourth of July celebration, or whatever it is. And so there's so many people in your community who are in charge of procuring these kinds of generators that you probably just haven't thought about. All right. Well, with that, let's get to Alicia. [MUSIC] Energy Empire is powered by octopus energy. Natasha, utilities have been pitching demand response for 20 years. Nobody signed up. Who's fault is that? The industries. Those programs were designed for utilities, not people, confusing opt-ins, a bill credit you need a forensic accountant to find, no feedback ever. That's not a product. That's homework. The utility answer is that customers just don't care about the grid. And they're right. And that's fine. Nobody cares about the grid. People care about what they pay. So stop asking them to care and build something that works on its own. The car charges when powers cheapest, thermostat pre-calls before the evening peak, the home battery sells back at the top. And the saving show up where you can actually see them. So the fix isn't another pilot program. It's a product good enough that nobody has to be convinced. Homework gets assigned. Products get chosen. Thanks, Natasha Crowe. Vice President of Marketing and Combs, North America Adaptable Energy. Link in the show notes. And let him buy a leash. Welcome to the pod. We're so excited to have you. Thanks for having me. So you started your career as a registered nurse. I actually also have a friend who started her career as a registered nurse and ended up in a vastly different career path. And I think it's always so interesting when people do that. So today your co-founder and chief financial officer of ANA, a mobile generator company doing roughly $400 million a year in sales. Nobody draws lines like this on a career map. So take us back. What was your journey like? How does a nurse end up in mobile power? Yeah, I didn't have a master plan like making sure that I got to mobile power from nursing. So I became a registered nurse at 19, which is pretty young. And I just struggled to find my passion in nursing. But I found that I was really drawn to the back office and understanding how the organization worked. And so I ended up moving into health care as an administrator. And I ran a home health care company. And then I eventually ended up selling it. And that whole process just taught me I really love building things. And what what's always stayed with me from nursing, which is a great launching pad for for people is that acute triage where you've got a situation in front of you and you don't have perfect information. But you need to just act and take a decision in that moment. And so that's that's been really helpful for us as we built a and a. At what point in that journey did you realize an entrepreneurship was cool for you and that you had the risk tolerance to do that before starting a and it was with the private investment office. I had worked on two startups. I thought that was the coolest thing. And the best way to spend my energy like what I was built for. And unfortunately, I didn't have any equity in either of those two startups. And so I learned it's great to have equity in startups when you put all that energy into it. And so then starting a and a it was like I was I was just ready for it and Mike and Kevin were two. So then the Japanese generator company airman helps you guys, you know, and says, Hey, we really want you to start this distribution businesses are usually sleepy low margin. Unloved. What did you see in 2017 that made you bet everything on this one. Yeah, we didn't set out to build a big company. We thought we could build a better company, a great place for people to work and be relentless about serving our customers. So with the previous distributorship, the airman brand had been damaged in the market. And we thought we could help build that trust back. So it was it was a labor of love coming together. I created the chart of accounts and quick books on my kitchen table. And I was the let's see, I was the AR team, the IT guy, the finance team, plant management, charge operations. I was marketing, HR, I was all the things until we could afford to start hiring on other folks. and I just really loved it. And that's how we ended up here. It sounds really fun. I, Jigger and I, you know, have this new thing, Energy Empire, don't know if you've heard of it. And so I'm very much so where you are, where I'm like learning how to do all these new things and I'm like wearing all these different hats. And it's related to how, like, my career has progressed. It's a little bit more of a straight line than I think for you coming from nursing, but it's still like, I don't know how to do that, but I'm gonna figure it out. And I, it's, you either got that and you either like find that really compelling and like scary in a fun way or you don't. And so I love hearing that because it's, that's like, I'm just living that right now. So I feel like that's what it is. Yeah, what, what, what pieces do you think that you take from nursing forward, like, on a day-to-day basis and what you're doing today? Yeah, I think the main thing is that acute triage of, you know, you've got a situation in front of you, you have to react to. There's no time to get perfect information. And so therefore you have to just take the risk and make a decision in that moment. That and then the human side of building a company. So you can have the best processes in the world and not consider the human side of it or the culture side of it. And maybe you don't have the kind of company that we've, you know, we've been looking up to build. So we've focused a lot on our culture building at A&A. And I think I, I think I carried that forward that kind of empathetic view from nursing. I love that. And I'm sure the company is stronger because you have those qualities. And I just really love these stories that people have. And sometimes you fear it takes you in an unexpected direction and that's the most interesting thing about a person's personal journey. So I want to talk a little bit about more, like, let's get into the technology and talk a little bit more about mobile generators, why temporary powers everywhere, but nobody necessarily sees it or is aware that it's there. Mobile generators might be one of the least glamorous corners of the energy industry, but one of the most essential. Every construction site, concert, film set and hurricane recovery runs on them. For people who've never thought about this market for one second, who are your customers and what would stop working tomorrow if mobile power disappeared? Yeah. So if you're at a concert, if you're at the Stanley Cup final, if you're on a construction site, a data center construction site, road project, there's so many areas that are operating on temporary power and you just don't see it. And our customers are rental companies, equipment rental companies, that rent these generators out to the end users. And there's thousands of end users that rely on that rental equipment every day to manage their-- make sure they're cost or fix on their project. And you talked about Kevin's role in relationship management, but take us through that in more detail. So you're selling to big national equipment, rental companies. And they provide their products to every job site in America. When those buyers pick a generator, what actually wins the deal? Is it price, uptime, fuel costs? And is that answer changed over the last five years? I think it's different for the different companies. Some prices are the most important. But five years ago, availability was the most important thing. Rental companies don't need a generator next month. They've got a job and they need it tomorrow. And so I think Kevin's main push when we got started was, we're going to pick up the phone. We're going to have availability. We're going to make sure that we deliver within 24 hours. And that was part of the key to our success. Now, what we're finding is customers care more about reliability and total cost of ownership. And I'm sure they cared about that five years ago. But we're experiencing that more now. And as you're seeing this kind of shift from traditional diesel generators only to hybrid, part of that is that reliability. That's amazing. I'm curious though, when we talk about how long it takes to get connected to the grid, right? Data centers and factories are all the rage. And they're talking about how they have to wait years to get a utility hookup. Are you now selling to customers who simply can't wait for the grid who just want temporary power quietly as bridge power? 100%. And I think it's-- they want it loudly as bridge power. I think it's become mainstream. At least what we're experiencing projects just can't wait for the grid. And so if you can get temporary power on site right away, then you do that. All right. So this is where it gets really exciting. I love what your technology does and what differentiates it. In 2022, you launched E-Boss or Energy Boss, ANA's mobile generator. So how do you explain this product to folks who know nothing about generators or about mobile power? What does it do and how is it different from other products on the market? Yeah. So it's batteries and inverters that attach to a generator or any power source. But what makes us different from a best is that we separate the load from the generator. So 100% of the load is pulled from the battery. And the generator is just an automatic charger that just charges the battery when it starts getting low. And so that enables so many different benefits. It enables for one, the inverters provide a very pure quality of power that's needed in a lot of different applications. But it also allows us to have a smaller battery size, a smaller footprint, which is important on jobs that have a tight footprint or that have weight restrictions for their logistics. Lots of benefits to having the load separated from the generator. Yeah. That sounds like a series hybrid, right? I remember when the Chevy Volt came out and they were like, well, the wheels are running off the battery. And there's a gasoline engine in the back that's sort of like charging the battery. And eventually that gas engine could be replaced with a fuel cell or it could be replaced with something else, like ultimately it's just recharging the battery. That's super interesting to me. One of the things that I find really interesting though is that people don't really know the numbers. Like when you think about what a backup generator costs after a setup and tear it down and just like running it at half loading, it sounds like it could easily be like a dollar a kilowatt hour or more, right? And so you're saving people a ton of money by going eboss, isn't that right? Yeah. It saves up to 80% of the fuel cost. So the way rental companies work is they'll calculate how much rent to charge by the initial cost of the equipment. So the way the eboss works is they go to the end user and say, hey, we can provide you this eboss, which provides all these benefits, reduction in emissions, reduction in noise, and you get the hybrid. And we're going to charge you the same amount of rent plus fuel that you would have paid anyways for a traditional generator. And then the companies that sell fuel, they just convert all of that fuel cost that they were just passing through to their customer to their profitable rent dollars. Yeah, I mean, but it does feel like it confuses people, right? I mean, I've talked to a lot of the folks that like Netflix and others who basically say, we like to go 100% green. We have green riders in our movie set contracts, right? And it does feel like cutting diesel by 80% is better than trying to cut it by 100%. That this solution actually meets the needs of the customers and works better through the rental companies than 100% battery solution. Where would you take it to recharge, et cetera? Right. Yeah, I guess the way we look at it is there's a huge installed base of traditional diesel generators. I think I recently heard 160,000 mobile generators in the US alone in rental fleets. And so that's not counting anywhere else in the world. And if you can make those installed generators that work very well in some cases when they're fully loaded, they work very efficiently. And you can make them efficient all of the time. That's just such a huge economic and environmental win. I totally agree. Yep, absolutely. I mean, that idea, it almost sounds too simple. It's like, it's almost like it's very obvious. Parabattery with a diesel generator so the engine only runs when it actually needs to. And as you mentioned, like cutting the fuel use up to 80%. But this isn't necessarily based on new technology. Like certainly generators have been around for a century. So why did it take until 2022 for someone to figure out how to do this? Yeah, we have an interesting story on that. And I'll say first off, it's not new. Europe started doing this a long time ago, maybe 2015, 2016. In 2018, we became the distributor for a European best that became kind of the model that a lot of the other best companies model their units after. And what we learned in that process, first of all, a tremendous amount of things related to electrical power and batteries was that it's not enough to solve the technical problem. You have to solve it with the needs the customer in mind so that the customer will be successful with it. So ultimately that company was sold to one of our competitors and so we were in a position where we could take the knowledge that we had and start from the ground up, design a product that was fit for purpose and utilizing all of the deep knowledge we have dealing with the rental industry and the problems that they experience. I mean rental equipment gets abused. It's in freezing cold temperatures, it's in burning hot temperatures, it's treated, you know, sometimes it's maintenance on time or if people can get to it. It's not treated as well as someone who might own the equipment and so it needs to be a really robust solution and we worked really hard on coming up with that. We started in 2019 with the design and then we were finally ready to commercialize it in 2022. Yeah, I mean, you know, both Jamie and I worked at the loan programs office. We were involved in financing battery manufacturing facilities, right? So many of us had heard of regular lithium ion batteries which are sort of NMC batteries, right? Nickel manganese, cobalt batteries for high power, high vehicle range, right, electric vehicles. And many of us heard of LFP batteries, right? Which is lithium iron phosphate batteries for, you know, utility scale batteries that people put in their homes or use for utility scale batteries. But you went a completely different direction, right? You guys went to LT, oh batteries, right? So lithium titanium oxide sells from Toshiba. The chemistry charges in minutes survives extreme heat and cold as you suggested. It's just tens of thousands of cycles. And now you guys are, I think, buying 10% of the world's lithium titanate supply, right? Why that chemistry when everybody else is buying LFP for stationary storage? Yeah. So we went looking for a chemistry that would be robust. Like I mentioned, the conditions in the rental world are very tough. And so we needed something that was, would operate in the widest temperature range that could take a charge very quickly and discharge very quickly. And that was, we could use with our patented three inverter system. So the high cycle life of LTO, it makes it possible for us to just cycle and cycle and cycle the battery without it needing to be replaced regularly. And that's where we're separating the load from the generator. And so through the three inverter system, you need to cycle the battery as often as it needs to be recharged. And we use a smaller battery for a smaller footprint. And so that's why we went with LTO. So you know, I'm curious, you guys went from 11 million of revenue in 2022 to roughly $400 million today on track for $50 million of EBITDA, right? Which is earnings before interest taxes depreciation and amortization. And you did it on $700,000 of founder money, plus exactly one outside check from our friends at S2G for $50 million. And most companies with that kind of growth raised five rounds give way half the business. How did you guys think about your capitalization strategy and avoiding BC money? Yeah. I think the three of us founders were very aligned from the beginning that we weren't looking to build a company to flip. We were looking to build a durable company. The three of us put our nickels together and Armin was really supportive with inventory initially. And I'll just correct the 2022 number. By 2022, we had built a successful and profitable distribution business. And so we were doing north of $100 million in 2022 in the distribution business. Nothing in the hybrid energy business. And so with that foundation, we were able to launch EVOS. And that's not something a lot of new product companies get to start from that really secure base that we already had a channel to market. We already had customers. We had already built trust in our brand. And so we were able to launch. And then we saw what was coming as far as the growth, the reception of our product. And we knew we needed to bring on a partner. But still you all waited eight years to take your first institutional investment, even despite all of that growth. So the money must have been knocking at your door the whole all along the way. So what types of things did you say no to along the way? And then what made you finally say yes to S2G? So we didn't really say no. We just weren't looking. We were heads down trying to build the distribution business. And as I said, Armin was really supportive with inventory. We were very disciplined with working capital management. And we used a little bit of asset base lending for working capital. And we invested all the profits back into growing the business. And so we just continued to cash flow our way into growth. And our customer demand is really what kind of funded our growth. So when EVOS took off in 2022, we looked ahead and we said, this is a tremendous opportunity in front of us. And looked at our balance sheet and realized we were severely under capitalized. I think at the time we had a $60 million balance sheet supported by $4 million or less of equity. And so we said, now we need to bring on a partner. And so we launched a process. And what drew us to S2G really was alignment. They looked at us and understood the distribution side of the business. They understood the EVOS. They saw the benefits that would bring as far as fuel reductions and emission reductions, believed in our vision and didn't ask us to change who we were to take on their partnership. So Nessa, I want to talk about what's next for the company because I know that you've had some news recently and some more upcoming news. So I understand you just signed a distribution room and to take EVOS into Europe, where of course diesel is a lot more expensive and a mission will on jobs sites are much tighter than they are in the United States. Why Europe? Like what's the interest been like there? Yeah, I mean, you said it. The fuel costs more emission restrictions are much higher than in the US. So it becomes a really natural market for us. We've had great reception so far. What makes me really confident that EVOS is a great product there is not necessarily anything to do with that specific market. It's the architecture that separates the load from the generator and all of the benefits that that brings. A lot of the products available in Europe right now are a battery pack set bolt onto a generator and they have passed through power with the generator and it's essentially peak shaving. And ours is just a totally different architecture. The battery does all the work and the engine's just the charger. Yeah, and the way that that works is basically that, you know, like if you have a hybrid vehicle and both the engine and the battery are running the wheels, like that's what the Europeans have now. And what you guys are doing is just running the wheels off the battery and then running the engine at its most fuel efficient point to recharge the batteries, right? So it uses the least amount of fuel possible. It's so smart. And then describe for me, FlexBoost, because that feels different than the EVOS solution. So how is it different and how does it, you know, change the trajectory of the company? Yeah, we're really excited about FlexBoost that we just announced recently. It's our continued work at trying to solve the problem of variable loads in generator fleets. So where EVOS is a modular scalable, kind of stackable system where you can build big power systems. So for example, we have paralleled, I think, 60 units together to make a four megawatt system. And then that's being charged by two one megawatt generators. So you can make that make it bigger. You can make it smaller, really scalable. Your FlexBoost is an all in one machine with a generator. It's an engine alternator and then you drop in the middle some automotive hybrid technology that allows it to have very similar benefits to the EVOS, but it becomes a one to one generator replacement on those applications where you just have the one generator. You don't need to build a big power system. And how did you guys get there? Like was there an external party you worked with to design the system? Like is there a supply chain that was offering the service? How did you guys make the leap to FlexBoost? FlexBoost was purely internal. We have some really smart folks that just kept thinking beyond what we've done with EVOS that how could we continue to push the limit? How could we continue our journey to zero and continue to flip this big installed base that we have? How do we improve what's already there? And that's how that resulted. Last question for me, given how many awesome events use temporary power, what is the best event that you got free tickets to go to because of your relationship with the generator companies? You know, I should use that more. We powered the Super Bowl. We're going to have to fix that. I think it learns that Mortensen construction built that facility, the Raider Stadium, I guess, in Las Vegas, right? And so, yeah, we're all going to have to get in on the free tickets. Like that seems like the summary of this conversation is all-- That's a hack of a perk. I like this one, you know, Jigre? Yeah, we need to talk more. This is a good idea. Well, with that, I mean, it is just so extraordinary to me. I mean, to me, like, I think that in this world of climate conversations, people are like obsessed with talking about climate. In your solution, I think you're just talking about providing better customer service to customers, right? It's just a better product. It's like, you know, better reliability, maintenance, you know, fuel savings. And then it happens to save emissions, right? And as a result, the product is just taken off, right? I mean, it feels to me like this is the future of, you know, sort of quote unquote, climate, right? Is just better products, you know, better customer service. Yeah, I think the energy transition is scalable when the economics work for the customer. And that's kind of what we build our business around. Well, thank you so much for spending time with us. I mean, just an incredible story. And if needed, you can provide CPR. [LAUGHTER] Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I really appreciate talking with you guys. [MUSIC] Energy Empire is supported by S2G investments. If you haven't checked out their podcast, I highly recommend it. They have a great recent episode on the long term effects of the Iran War and the blockade of the Strait of Hormuz. In the episode, Sunjeev Krishnan, Franco Sullivan, and Bala Nagarajan make a compelling case that this disruption could be the most powerful accelerant for renewable energy in a generation. And in future episodes, they'll be exploring how those forces are reshaping our food systems and ocean intelligence. Sound interesting? Go find the S2G podcast and start with the global energy order has changed. Now what? [MUSIC] Well, that was so interesting. I loved her background and her love of Las Vegas and the place that she's from and doing this extraordinary business from. The backstory was also really interesting. Yeah, I mean, I love her nursing to CFO pathway. I actually know a nurse who went on to become commissioner of the IRS. Her son or friend of mine. Wow. Yeah, it can be really interesting pathways and her explanation about how like, cute triage, like making decisions to that perfect information can actually really help you when you found something like this. The one thing that bothered me was that they supplied the power for the Super Bowl and didn't get pre-tickets. Like, I feel like you've got to get a better deal for that. You definitely have to work those connections. I mean, you and I would not hesitate. We would be like, and we'll be there. But we're trying to hold that Olympics the LA28 card. I really feel like there's something there for them. I think I have to work with her on the LA Olympics and make sure that she gets free tickets. I was also just blown away by the size of the opportunity. 160,000 mobile generators. I mean, that is such a huge fleet of generators. And yeah, many of them are used like all the time. I mean, I really think that this is an example of how bridge power has just gone completely mainstream. Customers aren't quietly settling for temporary power while they wait for the grid. They want it very loudly and they are willing to do what they need to do to procure it. Welcome to Ask Jigger. Our weekly segment where Jigger answers your questions about energy and honestly anything else you're wondering about. Huge thanks to our sponsor Octopus Energy for making the segment possible. In a quick reminder, anyone who sends in a question that Jigger answers on the show gets an energy empire hat from our merch shop. So send them in. All right, Jigger. Let's get into it. Our first question is from Charlie Fox, who asks, "Jigger, after all the extra time and class, it took to build vocal units three and four. Now that they're finally online, is there real appetite for big centralized nuclear power again?" Well, the administration, of course, is doing everything they can to try to leverage that momentum, right? So they passed their own set of policies to try to get people the waiver under DOE's test reactor. And so you saw four reactors go critical recently. But they also made that big announcement around funding long lead items out of the Lone program's office to be able to get utilities to just opt in to providing the equity. And then all the debts already in place. And so I don't know of any utilities who's taking them up on it. But I think they're trying really hard. And I mean, the big challenge we have is it's really the workforce that matter the most for vocal units three and four. And a lot of those folks are now having other jobs, right? So they're working in data center construction or other things. And so we'll see how fast this happens. But unfortunately, I'm worried that large-scale reactors are just something that's super scary for electric utility companies. Yep, that makes sense. All right, our next question is from Gabe Yoder, who says, "Jigger, I want to put the duplicate system argument to you. Wind and solar always need some medium term backup and in practice, that's usually a hydrocarbon generator of some kind." The critique goes like this, "If you have to build enough dispatchable backup to cover a. " Oh my goodness, with the pronunciation here, "Dunkel Flote." A Duncan Flouta. Duncan Flouta. Thank you for that, Jigger, if you have to build enough dispatchable backup to cover a Duncan Flouta, a long stretch of low wind and sun, you've basically paid for a whole second system. So why not just run that and skip the renewables? How expensive is it really to keep rarely used backup on hand and does that actually spoil the economics of wind and solar setting aside their carbon value? Ooh, this feels like. Oh, we're getting spicy here. Yeah, this is spicy. Well, the folks who don't know, a Duncan Flouta is basically something that happens commonly in Germany, which is why it has a German word. And it basically means that there is very low wind and very low solar for extended periods of time. Let's call it 10 days. And so if you have that much storage that's required, then it basically makes storage very expensive to do. What you find is that whether it's in Germany or whether it's in California, where we have a similar amount of renewables, what you need is to be able to have diversification, right? So California has hydro, but it also has the new Sun Zia transmission line that comes from New Mexico that's adding several gigawatts of wind power from New Mexico into California. And as a result, the natural gas power plants in California have now gone from essential to basically a very low cost insurance policy against a Duncan Flouta. And so what you find in most of these cases is that the vast majority of people can only think one dimensionally, whether it's powering their data center with a backup natural gas generator or whether it's saying solar and wind need backup. But when you think about all of what the grid allows you to use, which is all the hydro power from Washington state, nor again in California's case to the wind power in New Mexico, to the solar power in Nevada, having a large balancing area is very important. But then you need to match that with 20% demand flexibility, which is what we're trying to get done in the state of California now, but has been really tough to get regulators to do. And when you do all of that, you really can run the grid almost all renewables and clean firm power generation, meaning some nuclear, some geothermal, et cetera, at a very affordable cost. And then have a lot of these natural gas generators has backup just in case you need them. It really does work. Great. Learn something new every day. Thank you for that one. And for the help of the pronunciation. All right, our next question is from Lars Angle Red, who says, "Jiggered the US just banned poll star from selling cars here after 2027." Oh, I didn't know that. It falls under the new connected vehicle rule targeting Chinese software because poll star is owned by China's Gile, but the poll star three is built by American workers in South Carolina and Volvo, which has the same Chinese owner, got a waiver. Can you explain what's actually driving this band? Is it a national security win or an own goal? Yeah, you know, I have no idea. You know, like the whole Volvo versus poll star thing makes you wonder because clearly Volvo is also owned by the same company. And we drive a Volvo that's a plug in hybrid. And so they're not banning those, but they are banning the electric vehicle only company, which seems highly suspicious. This also happened during the first Trump administration when they really went after Huawei in a big way and forced the British government to ban Huawei. And even to this date, there has never been anyone who has proven that Huawei was putting hidden surveillance or anything else in their equipment. And so while it's something that we should really be watching for and you see this with sungrove inverters and other regulations that are coming out of the Trump administration, you know, like there actually does need to be a better process by which we make sure this is uniformly applied so that it doesn't look like there's just targeting electric vehicles. >> Quick follow up question from me. If the Democrats won the midterms, is there anything that Congress can do about this? Or are we just stuck with these, you know, feeling kind of malicious decisions by the administration that feel really highly politically targeted? >> Well, I mean, I hope that greater balance comes to the Congress, right? I mean, it's not a Democrat Republican thing for me as much as it's, you know, we are being forced to buy stuff that's more expensive than we otherwise would have to. A lot of these electric vehicles are coming in at a much lower cost for a mile now than the higher gasoline costs that people are paying. But you also see this with all the solar and wind projects that have been held up. You see this with the higher cost inverters or batteries that people have to purchase. And so I'm all for national security and I'm certainly all for domestic manufacturing, but the Polestar vehicles are manufactured here in the United States of America in South Carolina. And so it doesn't make any sense to me except that this is probably something that's targeting electric vehicles. >> Yeah, that makes perfect sense. All right, our next question is something we were talking about earlier today and it comes from Daniel Gonzalez. He says, "Jigger, will community push back on data centers, push more of them off-grid and onto their own natural gas power?" That's the direction that I keep landing on. >> Well, remember, communities have a say also in off-grid natural gas plants, right? So I think that in general, this is not really about off-grid and on-grid. That conversation is really more about the intransigence of the electric utility industry. For several years now, we've been able to show that if the electric utility industry deployed batteries at scale and grid enhancing technologies, installed advanced conductors when it was replacing old transmission wires, that you could get way more out of the grid that we've already paid for and reduced rates by 5% to 10% for everybody who's currently on the grid. But instead, what happens is that when the electric utility company suggests very complex solutions that cost a lot of money and take five years to implement, a lot of the data centers want to go off-grid. And then what happens is they actually create a lot of localized pollution for the people who live there. Plus, they actually build a whole bunch of redundant infrastructure that's not really well placed to provide the backup power for the rest of the people who use the grid once that data center is connected to the grid. And so it really is a selfish solution that ends up costing everybody more money, creates a lot of local pollution, which then creates a lot of anti-datacenter sentiment, which could all be avoided if the electric utility industry put their big boy pants on and actually used American technology to get more of the grid we've already paid for. Well folks, you heard it first here. The electric utility industry needs to put its big boy pants on. And that's all for us. Jere this week. Remember you can send in your own questions and if yours gets picked, you'll get an energy empire half Marmer store. The link is in the show notes for submitting your questions. Thanks for listening as always. You can find us at energy empire dot FM or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you've got a second, please leave us a review on Spotify or an Apple podcast because it really helps new people find the show. Thanks so much.