“The NSA Hired Me To Speak To Aliens!” -Sergeant Dan Sherman

And he said, I'm going to play a tone. And I want you to mentally hum that tone. And he said that you will eventually feel a connection. The line will change. When I saw the sine wave move, I went, oh, OK. Well, there's a mental disconnect there that that's not supposed to be happening, that this is not possible. Our guest today is an Air Force sergeant who worked at the highest levels on classified projects in electronics and signals intelligence for the United States government. We have thorough documentation of his military records. His service is not something you can really argue with, nor is his mental health. This is the most nonchalant conversation I've ever had about alien telepathic communication. In this exclusive long-form interview, retired technical sergeant-- Sergeant Dan Sherman claims that while serving in the Air Force in the early '90s, he was recruited for an extremely classified program at the NSA, or National Security Agency. This program was called Project Preserve Destiny. Project Preserve Destiny's purpose? To telepathically decode alien signals for the NSA. You heard me right. Alien signals that seem to telepathically transmit descriptions of alien abductions across the United States. Alien signals that ultimately gave our very curious guest answers about the very nature of the alien presence on Earth, how these beings travel, how they conceive of time, what they think about humans, and much, much more. Dan Sherman was originally told by the Air Force captain who read him into the program that he was given this telepathic ability. He was given this ability by the aliens themselves when they abducted Sherman's pregnant mother in the early 1960s and altered his genetics while he was a fetus in her womb. This genetic blueprint would allow him to grow into what the NSA would dub an intuitive communicator. With the IC communication, you can feel it in your brain. You can feel-- now, you can't-- you can't localize it. It's not a localization. But I can feel like it's in that area of my brain right there. Whoa. Sherman believes the NSA may even have tracked him since childhood into his young adulthood and military service until he was finally read into the program. Do you think that the NSA or powers that be know that this interview is happening? Because of the extremely sensitive nature of this NSA program and its ties to black programs, Dan tries to abstain mentioning which bases this Project Preserve Destiny was conducted at. But my researchers and I were able to locate one of these bases, and I bring it up at the end of this interview, catching Sherman a bit off guard. Not only that, but at the end of this video, we explore an independent researcher's use of the Freedom of Information Act to learn more about Project Preserve Destiny. He sent a request to the government to see all of the files on it. As you'll see, both the Air Force and NSA's responses to his request are fairly telling. The point is, the skeptics can have at it, but this case isn't going away. It's very hard to dismiss. I'd argue that Dan Sherman's story is one of the most important UFO legacy program-related accounts we have to contend with. So sit back, relax, and prepare to have your worldview crumble with this week's very courageous American alchemist, retired sergeant, intuitive alien communicator, and UFO whistleblower, Dan Sherman. - Different parts of the brain have different activities. - But you know that, don't you? - I know people like you a lot. - Maybe you should interview me. - Dan Sherman, thank you so much for being here. This, for me, is a dream come true and has been a long time coming. I've read your incredible book, Above Black, and it documents an experience that, to me, is so fascinating. It's kind of, in some ways, high strangeness. It doesn't comport with a lot of the other stories. And so that, to me, that is like the perfect combo of like what I want to investigate because you seem like a really cool, lucid guy. And then you're talking about being an intuitive communicator, you know, downloading signals from aliens for the NSA. Which is pretty amazing. - It is. And downloading is an interesting description, but it definitely was, you couldn't see it, so it looked like it was downloading. - Or decrypting, or I don't know, yeah. - Receiving, I like to say receiving, but. - Receiving, okay. Why do you like to say that? - Well, downloading kind of denotes some sort of machine, or, you know, we associate downloading with bits, and data, and it wasn't like that. It was just a thought. It was a thought that came. So I just try to keep it organic as opposed to machine related. And I know we got, you know, in the book, I talk about machines and how I interface with the computer and all that. So there is a machine component in my training, but after that, it wasn't really much of a machine, so. - Right. Well, why don't we take things back to your childhood. Where'd you grow up? - Phew. I grew up in a lot of places. Between kindergarten and 12th grade, I went to 27 schools, so. - 27 schools? - Yeah. - What was the reason for that? - We just moved a lot. My dad was a welder, and we were very, very poor, and just, you know, went with the wind. And of course, I had step parents, and I went to live with my grandma and my aunt, and, you know, there was a lot of broken home type situation, too. So I was going from one place to another all the time. - Wow. - Yeah. - But there was no sort of military brat dynamic? - No, no, no. - Your dad was just a welder? - Yeah, no, no. There was no military component. - Interesting. And you, just even being here today, is sort of unlikely, right? Because your mother was having trouble giving birth for a long time, and you were kind of an anomaly? - Yeah, the doctors, she had an accident when she was like 10 or 11. She fell off the tailgate of a pickup truck, and her social-- her organs were messed up, and the doctors basically said she'd never carry a baby to term. And she had many miscarriages, but I was the only one that-- I like to say I was the only miscarriage that came-- That was, that lived. Anyway, so it was definitely an interesting correlation, I guess, to the story after I found out about, you know-- - Yeah. - What I found out about, kind of correlated. It was like, well, maybe there was some protective, you know, protective angels there, somehow. - Yeah. Well, everybody listening now should put a pin in what you just said, because-- - We can't get ahead of ourselves, right? - We can't, but there are some very interesting details to come about your mother. So what made you want to become Air Force Electronics Intelligence? - Well, I, we managed some horse stables in Yuba City, California, and we had a person who boarded their horse there, and he was a major in the Air Force. And he was a SR-71 pilot. And, of course, that fascinated me. Here I am, a fourth grader, you know, being able to interface with somebody who's been on the news, that met President Carter, you know, that he was like a hero to me. And we would talk, I remember conversations with him when we were watching his daughter ride the horse that they were boarding. He would tell me about flying in the Air Force, and I would tell him, you know, he was a great pilot. And he would tell me, you know, he was a great pilot. And I would tell him, you know, he was a great pilot. the DD-214 thing is to the super skeptic that's out there, you have a service record and there's really no way to deny that you were Air Force Electronics Intelligence at the very least. And so you get called to go to a school for Electronics Intelligence, like for like upgrading your skillset or something? When I went into the military, I went in as a security security policeman. I was just a police. And at the time that I was taking the tests for to get in, you know, the ASVAB tests and the things that they test you on to get you into the military and to also place you. They said that I qualified for every job in the Air Force, but I'd have to wait X amount of time if I wanted X job. And I didn't want to wait. I was 18. I was out of the military or out of school and graduated and I just wanted to go. So I said, just get me in any, any career field that you, you have available right now. So that was it. So I went in and, um, and then after about five, four or five years, I applied for a cross-train and that's when I was cross-trained into ELINT. Okay. So can you say where you were based when you applied for the cross-training? Yeah. Um, Montana. Okay. I was in Montana and my first base as an ELINTER was in Offutt. Okay. So I was in Montana and my first base as an ELINTER was in Offutt. Okay. Got it. And so what is just for the audience, basic context, what are you doing as an ELINT Air Force officer? Um, we had different collection platforms. You have satellite, you have, um, aircraft, you, you have, um, even vehicles. We have collectors that collect enemy information. They collect the radio transmissions of, of, um, border areas or even over a country. And then we, as the ELINTERs, we, uh, analyze all that electronic communications and what type of, uh, electronic, um, emission it is, whether it's radar or comms or, um, even lasers and, uh, any type of emission that comes from a country. We kind of delineate and parse out what it is. And then we look at it for intelligence value. And then if it does have, like, let's say it's a TV station. Well, we know it's a TV station. We know that. And so that's not intelligence value, although it could be intelligence value for other intelligence fields, but not us. And so we look at the stuff that has to do with radars and, and, um, military assets that are going to sense us as their enemy. So we need to build jamming packages that allow us to completely control the airspace. And we didn't build the jamming packages. We didn't build the jamming packages, but we gave them the parameters by which they, they looked at it. The jam, jamming people looked at it and they built their packages based on what we gave them. Gotcha. And so what happens? You're, you're based at Offit and you're told that you should go to some schooling. Well, I went to school initially for the career field in, in, um, San Angelo, Texas. And then, um, I became certified, you know, and, and became an ELINTER. And then that's when I went to Offit. Well, I went to Offit before, but then, um, just for a little bit, but then I went to school and then back to Offit. And, um, I was put up for going to a continuation course, which is called EA 280. You know, you become qualified and then you got to do continuation courses to get you better qualified. And that was what EA 280 was. And that's what sent me to the NSA complex. And then when I got to, got there, they sprung this other thing. And they said, you're going to be going to another school while you're here. And I was like, oh. So describe exactly what happened. So you go to the NSA complexes in Maryland. Is that right? Yeah. It's in Laurel, Maryland. There's a big, huge sprawling building there. Now make sure everybody understands this is 30 some years ago. Now, since then, maybe they've changed things. I don't know. You know, I'm not up on locations, but we're talking circa 1990s. Okay. At that time, there was a big, huge black, black building. Glass building. It's called the, um, I think they called it the black box even, but, um, it's the NSA headquarters building in Laurel. And, um, that's where I went to get my security. Well, actually back up. Um, we went to a hotel and here's an interesting little thing. It has nothing to do with PPD, but, um, this is a multi-service school. So they have Marines, they have Navy, Air Force. And, um, an army. And so all four services are going in, in the same class. And so you have people coming from different bases, army bases, Navy bases. And, um, this is the difference between the Air Force and everybody else. The Air Force put it up, put us up on the two Air Force guys that were there. We got put up in Holiday Inn and all the other services, we had to stay in dorms. And, and it was a contention, believe me. When the other services are, what? You're, you're saying what? Holiday Inn? It's like, well, you should have went in the Air Force, dude. Um, so anyway, uh, we stayed at the Holiday Inn and then I got a call, um, a random call after I got there from the captain. Um, and, um, he said he needed to meet with me. So he told me where to go at the NSA complex. I never really had a need to go to the NSA complex myself. Yeah. Um, until he told me. Until he told me that that was what I had to do. Cause, cause the, there's other buildings and outbuildings and all kinds of stuff in that area of Maryland that, that NSA controls. And so you can just go to wherever that is for years. So you think you're here just for Air Force continuing education. Yeah. But you're told that you have to go to the NSA complex. And just again, for the audience, basic context, what is the NSA? Uh, National Security Agency. Um, it, it just, it's basically in charge of all of the. Uh, intelligence that, that America does. All signals intelligence. Every intelligence. It's known as, known as no such agency. Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the, uh, jokes they say. Well, why, why do you think it, um, is so much, it's, it's sort of less well known than like the CIA is like the proverbial, you know, archetypal intelligence agency. Yeah. And then the NSA, you know, it's known as no such agency. It's like, you know, you hear rumors of like mathematicians in Virginia or whatever, but you don't really know what's going on there. Yeah. Cryptographers, you know, the CIA is, is a human asset and they use, they're, they're, they're very, uh, closely intertwined with the NSA because they use NSA assets and NSA uses CI, CIA's assets too. So it is, it, there's a, there's a synergy there. Um, but the CIA is the, the, the face of collecting information from other countries. Foreign intelligence. Yeah. That's, that's the kind of the face of it, but the underlying basis. Of it is NSA. Okay. So you're here for Air Force, you're in Maryland for Air Force continuing education. Yeah. What are you thinking when you get called into this NSA? Well, it, it was, I thought I was in trouble. I thought, I thought something, what did I do wrong? Did I fill something out wrong? Yeah. But, but here's the thing is you don't typically have, uh, an officer, a captain calling you directly and talking to you. Right. And usually it's like some, you know, uh, sergeant or somewhere that's, that's giving you information. If you need information or calling you in for something. So it was, it was a little odd and a little out of character and, um, or out of the ordinary. And so that course got my mind racing. Like, what, what is this? What? So I, I met him at the, in the lobby of the NSA. He told me how to get there and I don't know how detailed you want, but he, we had to go through some security stuff. He had to sign me in because my security conferences. As detailed as. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. My security clearances weren't there. So, and, and that was very common in the military. They have to transmit your security clearances to the next base or to your TDY base or class, um, schooling or whatever. And so they weren't there yet and he had to sign me in. He signed me in and we went in, went down the hallways and he, he led me to his office. And, uh, he had, um, now everybody understand this is 30 years ago. So. It's, it's sometimes hard to remember exactly the, uh, the details. And, and probably the only reason I know as many details as I do know is because I wrote a book about it, obviously. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I, I've written them and I've said them in interviews and stuff, but, um, and by the way, this is the first, interestingly enough, every, um, person that I've talked to about this in the past, like in an interview situation, it's always been a very, very canned type of situation where they would ask me questions. Yeah. I would answer, ask me a question, answer and edited, blah, blah, blah, you know, it was very, this is the first time and that's one of the reasons why I want to do it is because this is a podcast and it's informal, it's you can just, you can just talk and they, and people will also get a feel for an unedited Dan as opposed to, cause the, the interviews in the past, they've been re for me anyway, too. I can't even watch them cause they're so cringe. It's just, well, you come off as reasonable and all well okay reasonable but but it seems very stilted because there's no conversation yeah it's not a conversation it's just it's not a back and forth natural back exactly but that that form of journalism i think is dying oh yeah it's like a thing anymore so it's really see-through as fake it's kind of a boomer legacy yeah thankfully yeah uh anyway so where were we i can't remember now um so so you're you're in this okay so yeah the the the different things that um like the technology and stuff i remember that there was a retina scanner and but i can't remember if there was a retina scanner at his office i don't think there was i think it was just a a cipher you know the the button ciphers anyway uh so we get into his office and it's just like a normal um you know there's a couch and a chair in front of his desk and like a cabinet that had some um water on it or something like that it was i think there was a sink um anyway we just sat there and and he unveiled this mind-blowing thing to me and you know i i'm just a a boy from oregon that's as couldn't even imagine something like this happening to him so what was the rank of this guy captain captain all the all my contacts for the project were captains so he's he's sitting down in front of you and and what is he saying exactly as you know i'm always on the hunt for things that help me stay sharp focused and full of energy while i'm diving into life's mysteries and making this show happen and i've got to say mud water has completely transformed my mornings back in the day i used to struggle with that post coffee crash and let's not even get into the caffeine jitters mud water gave me the smooth steady energy i was missing it's packed with functional mushrooms and it's packed with functional mushrooms and mushrooms like lion's mane chaga and reishi plus turmeric and cacao all working together to keep me focused calm and grounded honestly it's like coffee went on a yoga retreat and came back zen what i love most is that it's not just about replacing coffee it's a whole new ritual it's a simple nourishing way to start the day and i actually look forward to it every morning every ingredient is usda certified organic vegan non-gmo and there's zero sugar it's energy that doesn't mess with your sleep or make you question your life choices at 3 a.m ready to make the switch to cleaner energy head to mudwater.com that's mudwtr.com and grab your starter kit today right now our listeners get an exclusive deal up to 43 off your entire order plus free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use code jesse that's right up to 43 off with code jesse at mudwtr.com after your purchase they'll ask you how you found them please show your support and let them know we sent you keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long with mudwater because life's too short for anything less than clean delicious energy he's sitting down in front of you and what is he saying exactly he proceeded to tell me that i was part of a project that started in 1960 i believe it was and um and that we it's the genesis of it was in 1947 we came in contact with an alien species and in 1960 they started a a project it was called project preserved destiny and um it was designed to genetically manage fetuses human fetuses and they started a so that they would have the heightened ability to do this particular thing that i was going to school for and um my mother was one of the the selected targets or whatever you want to call it um and her i was conceived in 63 so um he said that she was she was abducted a couple years before that and and i think that was for the testing and and trying to get the test done and i think that was the the right people you know to to continue the program with and so in 1963 when she was uh when she was um uh had me you know in term um they abducted her again and they uh did the genetic management that was his words genetic management what that means you know is up to interpretation i guess um but the result of it was that it gave me the ability to have this communications it's amazing so he's basically saying that mentions 1947 presumably the year of roswell and a couple of other famous sightings kenneth arnold i have to put a caveat there um so in in my memories of this it's possible that i assigned that year okay it's possible sure i don't know i can't remember if he actually said it because i already knew about the 1940 i mean everybody knows about yeah yeah so he could have alluded to that and i just assigned that year um but he said i i'm positive that he said due to our our communication or uh coming in contact with an alien species and he might have said 15 years ago he might have said you know a while ago and then i assigned that or he could have said 1947 i i can't remember appreciate your yeah yeah and i want to make i want to make sure that that's kind of out of the question but i think that's a good point out there so that it that it's not pigeonholed that i i had this scientific memory that said that it was definitely that because i don't yeah yeah yeah no no and and and i want everybody in the audience if you're uh 60 years and up to try to remember what happened to you uh you know 35 plus years ago in vivid detail and then you know report back if you know have you have any critiques for for this uh no no i really appreciate that so at some point right humanity or the u.s came into contact with these and i think he i believe he does say gray alien beings well that i think that came the the gray later terminology came later okay but we didn't mention with alien beings and in 1960 uh this project begins where the aliens are given access presumably by the american federal government to genetically i would i would say that the the government was given access okay because the aliens they had access whether we liked it or not okay i would imagine okay i mean if you if you think about it because so the the the they did it in concert with the military or the government but i don't know who gave access to who sure i mean so maybe the abductions have been ongoing yeah exactly and all of a sudden the government yeah exactly is interested in developing these intuitive communicators which you'll you know later become and uh that involves altering genetics of fetuses inside the womb of specific mothers one of whom happened to be your mother yes and they also chose it by demographics too because they um they knew that a certain percentage of offspring would want to go into the military of course so they could they could track that that progression and to keep it tightly controlled because you can't i mean if somebody went off to be you know in some job they could couldn't control then it it would be useless so they they tried to demographically and i would imagine many of the underprivileged and you know poor people were the ones that were were um poor families were the ones that were selected and mine was one of those definitely how are you feeling as he's telling you this uh well i was i i believe i was fairly numb at first like you know and i'm not sure why i'm not sure why i'm not sure why i'm not sure why i'm not sure you're getting you're getting information that is so unbelievable that you think okay this has got to be a joke or this is you know this is uh one of those rays um hazing things you know when you go somewhere and sometimes they haze you because you're the new person or whatever i mean that did cross my mind but in in general and in general terms i was very numb to the situation until at the at the end it started to gel like you know this is not a joke because he would have probably revealed it by now and so and i you know i'm in the nsa complex that this is not some office in some base somewhere where they're they can do that type of thing you know and joke with you so it it became real very very very quickly what do you say back to him not a lot um i think i tried to ask some questions but he he he was very um very businesslike as far as the the the revealing of information because he wasn't i don't think he knew a lot you know to to answer those questions i think he knew exactly what he needed to do to get his job done just as i only was fed the information that i need to get my job done so that's very common in the in the um classified world is need to know you know if you have a need to know that then you'll know it but if you don't have a need to know then you have no need to know that. And he describes the sort of compartmentalization of these programs a little bit more right in this conversation um he went over the onion effect um he said that you know you have these different layers that are built in the military and in government in general but definitely military where you have um one layer hiding another layer and of course when you're at the official use only and and unclassified aspects of things there's not much of a layer but when you get to the secret and the top secret and then black and then in our case and in the case of this the gray project so it one is designed to cover the other and especially when you get up to the black and gray project because when you have a gray project um obviously you need funding you need the all the logistics that go into running that and you have to have a reason you have to have a line item you have to have um justification for manpower and funding and all that so you do that because you have a black project that's co-located with it and only a select few of the people in the black project know about the gray project so that they can do their job and administer the gray project but all the funding all the all the um manpower like you know me going from one base to another it's all under the auspices of the the black project so it's why because a lot of people even you know in the ufo community the proverbial thing is like above above top secret which is you know timothy good's famous canonical ufo book and you're paying homage to it with black and you're saying that above programs that are by definition black and you know off the books kind of or off the books for the public at least yeah you have these little cutouts that involve the alien presence which is that's a big claim and why do you think he would tell you anything about the compartmentalization of it well because i was a part of it i was going to be a part of it so at that time i was not assigned to any black projects i i mean i was just like anybody else in the world i mean i i knew of the concept of of of stuff that is above top secret i even read the book probably i would imagine i did um because i remember the name of it that you just mentioned so it it it stands to reason that he would he would try to make me understand that this is just part of that process and you are going to be going to a black project and that would be your cover so to speak for what you're going to be doing with the project so he says that your mother in some way was genetically altered uh when she was given no the fetus your fetus so you were while inside of her uh in the early 60s and that was in order for you to become an intuitive communicator who is basically able to receive messages from well receive and transmit receive and transmit yeah yeah communicate basically back and forth and he's telling you all this yeah he said that that's what my job would be doing to air that's what my job would be to do that yes and and then so at that point you know are you saying like why are you telling me this is there like a follow-up here am i supposed to you know i mean when you're told this it's it's you're you're being your your mind is being bombarded with such a a radical situation that you don't well and also in the context of being a military too we have military protocol that you know we don't ask a lot of questions in the military you know you you're being told what to do and then you do it you're actually trained not to ask questions or not to give any type of pushback or anything you just yep yes sir yes sir that's what we're gonna do yes sir yes sir so in that context it doesn't i mean it may seem like somebody you know joe blow may seem like well if i was told that i'd be all up in arms what's going on but you don't you don't think like that when you're an airman or a you know a sergeant you just think okay this is the mission and we're we're going to go forward does he say anything about the purpose of preserve destiny and why intuitive communicators are needed in the first place yeah he said um he said that uh it was due to some future event and and again he said this is what i've been told so it wasn't like um he's just a conduit for whatever he's being told and so there are levels of need to know access and compartmentalization and and so he told me that there would be some future event and he said that there would be some future event and he said that there would be some where the ability to intuitively communicate would help the military and help you know command and control and and all that he didn't get into details on it but he just said that because i mean the training itself was um centered around communicating stuff like that like logistics and and things like that so he was setting me up for what type of communications would i be trained for and then he said it's for a future thing that we know is going to happen and you're going to be one of the communicating um aspects of that future event you'll be allowed or you'll be um relied upon to do that was it like a cataclysmic event or like you didn't say anything it didn't say anything about the the the nature of it at all but there was some need to have these intuitive communicators on a go-forward basis the future event thing he said in the future and maybe even the event that that word event maybe that was something that i put in there i i don't actually recall but but that was my impression that there would be some event in the future that that would be needed so what happens next we went to the school he took me in a van to the school and it could have been me coming back to the facility and then meeting him again don't really remember though um but we we took a van from the facility it was a a blue marked unmarked van that had black windows it drove to the school that i would be having the instruction at and couldn't see where we were going at all i mean that was part of the secrecy of it obviously is i didn't know where the school was and um so we went uh got out in a garage or a room of something like that and we went to the it wasn't really uh i don't know what it was it was just it was a interior of a cement building i don't know if it was a garage or a part of an annex of a building but it was just cement all around us and and the blue van parked and we got out and 10 about about 10 20 15 feet in front of the the van um doors that we got out was a a door it had a palm reader i believe and it might have had a retina scanner i know the interior one had a retina scanner um we opened the door went into a vestibule that was the door to the elevator we got in the elevator after doing the hand scan again i think it was the opposite hand the next time and then um went down i could feel it was going down obviously there was only one button in the elevator that was it just start basically um the doors opened on the other side of the elevator and we went into a room it had two consoles in it two computer consoles and a table in the middle and he told me you know the kind of logistics of the the van would pick me up at my hotel i would go through elance school and then um i think they gave me like the half hour 45 minutes i can't remember exactly the time but a short while after i got um back from the elance school they would pick me up and i would go to the hotel and i would go to the hotel and i would go to the and the the blue van would be right there in front of the in the pickup area of the holiday inn and um i would get in the van and he would drive me to the school and i would do exactly what we just did which is get out of the van go to the door i my all my information would be in the scanners and i just go down and go to my console and put on the headphones and sit there and that would be my that would be my task every every time and what are they telling you to do when you're sitting there with with headphones on you know how we're always diving into the edge of science and consciousness on this show lately i've been thinking a lot about aging not just in terms of years but in how it actually feels in the body slow recovery lower energy that middle-aged fog that sneaks up on you i feel like i can barely go out and drink alcohol anymore that's why i started using something called qualia senolytic and it's been a major shift in my life i've been using it for a long time for me let me explain as we age our bodies accumulate what scientists call senescent cells also known as zombie cells these are worn out cells that stop dividing but don't die they hang around in your body draining your energy clogging up your recovery and generally making you feel older than you are qualia senolytic is a first of its kind supplement formulated with nine plant-based compounds designed to help your body naturally eliminate these zombie cells it's not something you take every day just two days a month but it supports your body and aging better at the 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Since I've started taking it, I've felt sharper, lighter, and like my body's resilience has come back online. It's vegan, non-GMO, and grounded in serious research. Experience the science of feeling younger. Go to qualialife.com slash jesse for up to 50% off your purchase and use code jesse, again that's j-e-s-s-e, for an additional 15% off. That's q-u-a-l-i-a-l-i-f-e dot com slash jesse, j-e-s-s-e, for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring this episode. And what are they telling you to do when you're sitting there with headphones on? Well, the instructor was through the headphones. He just said put on the headphones and you'll be told what to do. Um, when we, after you put the headphones on, through the headphones. And so, and he told me also there would be some pills that I would take. So he showed me the pills and he said they'd be right here on the, on the table. And he told me also that there would be another student, uh, in the school at the same time. So that's why there were two consoles. And he said, you're never to speak with each other. Um, not even a grunt, nothing, nothing. Just you both come to your your, your, your console is going to be this one. And that's it. No, no talking. Um, and I did finally see that guy and we came about the same time, never at the exact same time, but around the same time. And, um, never said a word to one another, took the medicine or, uh, he told me about the medicine, where it would be. Um, it was very cut and dry. I mean, there wasn't a lot to it. We just had to get in the van and come here and do exactly what we just did. And so you basically had no idea where you were going in the van and you're in this extremely nondescript building. You just see the inside. Well, I assume it was the building. I mean, I don't know if we went down. It almost sounds like maybe it's underground. Yeah. Well, I know the school, the consoles were, I'm positive that, but well, I guess maybe not positive because we could have gone up into a building and then gone down. Who knows, but we didn't go down. So I assume it's underground. Um, and I don't, I think the building was ground level too, because I don't remember going up any, you know, inclines or down or any of that. So it was a ground level. Meaning that the school was probably underground. The school itself was under a building that was on ground. And I believe also you were talking about the intense secrecy. Uh, the captain who you call captain white in the book who briefed you initially said, you're not to speak about this with anybody. Unless they're involved in project preserved desk. Yeah. That's right. There would, he told me there would be a pass off. So, um, or an introduction or I can't remember the terminology used, but somebody would be, he would introduce me to somebody when I needed to do it in the future. If I went to another, or when I went to another base. So he was my contact for there. And then I would get another contact at another location and whatever location I was at, I would always be introduced by the previous, uh, contact. So I would never have any need to go up to somebody and say, are you, or none of that. Yeah. Yeah. It would always be like a Le Carre, uh, book or something. It's like a spy thriller. It's like, you'll be greeted by a man at this telephone booth or so. So, so, okay. So this is very close. And it was a telephone at one introduction. Really? Yeah. It was like meet at a telephone booth or something. No, it was, uh, I got a call, uh, public telephone, well, it wasn't public. It was the dorm, the dorm that I was living in at the first base that I went to, I was living in a dorm and there was a, like a, a dorm phone. So it was in the hallway. And so somebody came in and said, um, you have a phone call. And so, and so he told me that was Captain White. And he told me that the name of the next person and that I would meet them at such and such time. And he would have his arms folded in front of the facility. And that's who it was. That is arms. That's yeah. So, I mean, I know that's probably silly, but, but he did say that, that, that he would have his arms for her and he was the only person there. So it wasn't like I was going to mistake him for one of the other million people that were in front of him. But maybe that was somewhat of a signal to just confirm that that was the right contact. Okay. So this is in Maryland, it's presumably near the NSA complex when you get briefed. Yeah. And you're underground, you have your headphones on what instructions do you get through the headphones? Um, so initially, um, it was a very, very rudimentary, there were, um, LED boxes in the, on the computer screen in front of me. And, uh, they were green and it was like a sine wave. It was like this, um, like a, it's a typical, I don't know if people know what a sine wave is, but sine wave looks like a sideways S. Yeah, yeah, exactly. With a, with a green line going through the middle. And so I would have 10 of those boxes in front of me on the computer screen. And he said, for now, initially, anyway, he said, I just want you, I'm going to play a tone and I want you to mentally hum that tone. Don't audibilize it. Just mentally do it. Don't, don't use your vocal cords in any way, shape or form. Just mentally hum that, that note or that, yeah, that note. And so that's what I did for days, a few, a few days at least. And, and it was, uh, torture. It was basically torture. Just listening to one tone and mentally humming it. How many hours? I, I can't remember, but it was, it was probably a couple of days and each class, you know, it was like three, four hours in the afternoon, evening, early. That sounds like Chinese water torture. It does. Excruciating. I would definitely ascribe that, uh, term. Were you allowed to take breaks? Uh, I did get, I did get breaks, uh, like 10 minutes every hour, just like your normal work. Okay. You know, break type thing. Cause I think in the book you say you couldn't go to the bathroom during the blocks. I could not go to the bathroom, which was a problem sometimes. I, I, I, um, I don't think I ever did anything in my pants, but it was close. And I also was also very, uh, paranoid about going, you know, before going, I would always, you know, be on the toilet. Like, you know, definitely before I went, because I definitely did not want to have a problem. And, um, I, I think, you know, that's a young person's game too, because now I'd be like, no, no, no, I got, I got to have a bath, have a break, have a bathroom. Anyway. So, um, it was a mentally hummed tone and, and then he, um, he told me to concentrate on the first box while I was doing it. So I would look for like, uh, he said, look for movement in the, in the box on the sign wave of the first box. And, um, so I would, I would look at that box and just stare at that box and mentally hum the tone. And he said that, um, you will eventually, um, feel a connection between your, your mental and your visual. It. You'll feel a connection that, um, that is, uh, that is, uh, represented in the box. So the, the line will change with your, your, your, this thing that you're doing with your mind, which is a mental hum. Um, and so when I, I say in the book that it clicked and that that's kind of the only thing that I could really say. Put human language to it wasn't an audible click or it wasn't like a, you know, physical click, but, but it, it, it's like when you're, uh, focused in a camera that, you know, it's really out of focus and you're turning and turn it and you go, you know, it just focused right on it. Yeah. And that's what it felt like with the visual and the mental aspect of looking at the box. When I saw the, the, the, uh, sine wave move, it, it is like it came into. Focus this thing that, that I was doing to my head. And then I, I could, I could assign that what I just did. I could assign that to what I was doing visually or seeing visually. And I went, oh, okay. Well, I was excited. Of course, I nearly jumped out of my, my, my seat when it first did it. I, I couldn't believe it because at this point I was like really seriously giving up. I was like, this is, this is bullshit. This is not going to happen. And so when it did happen, it was. It was pretty exciting. Well, you must be thinking too, before the clicking happened, that this isn't how physics works, right? Like in, in your head, you mean you, you, you grow up in the U S learning or in anywhere learning that there's some sort of hard separation between mind and matter. And you can hum as much as you want internally to try to match or resonate with some external tone you're hearing, but the idea that that, you know, tone is represented on a screen. And you could somehow affect that representation with your mind to most people would be beyond the pale. I did. I did. did um for a short period of time think that maybe there was a connection between the headphones okay and and the computer some sort of electromagnetic well because the headphones weren't wireless they had a wire and it went into the cabinet and so you know i i did i mean i gave that a lot of thought like you know but that of course was proved wrong later on because i didn't have headphones later on when i was doing the actual communication so but yes you're right there's a disconnect there's a there's a mental disconnect there that that's not supposed to be happening that this is not this is not possible to happen so yeah it was definitely interesting so when you say it clicked and i realized that's the best way you can sort of describe it yeah do you then sense oh my god this sort of you know wave that's going the sine wave i now have mental control over it is that the feeling you get yeah yeah it was um well and it was i couldn't really do anything with it because i didn't really know what to do with it um but i could definitely um affect the the motion and i could do it just at will like i could at first the the the sign you know the sine wave was like this and it would go like this you know the the two lobes of the sine wave would go like this in harmony with one another that was the clicking um aspect and then later on i mean the the whole thing would just like this you know when you're actually doing when you're practicing the the visual and audio um um feedback you know that it was giving me i would i would do the communications or whatever the the ic aspect of what i was doing it would it would actually do this with the sine wave so at some point i just didn't even pay attention to the sine wave i was just i was just doing the what he was telling me to do and i see his intuitive communications and so you're you're you're seeing it almost like ripple or like yeah you know oscillate different that's so fascinating yeah and then okay so you like lock in you have this like connection between you and the sine wave and then are you have a goal are you trying to like get the sine wave to do something yeah he was just telling me we did the first sine wave and then the he would feed another note and i would have to concentrate on the second sine wave and then the third sine wave and until i got all of them to click and that was the kind of the overriding goal and then they started to feed me numbers and describing things and what i was interpreting when i was doing the boxes um it would start to um i i could associate certain concepts and and numbers and and colors and and letters and things like that with the actual boxes and and the different movements of the of the sine waves so it was intuitive in the sense that because it really was intuitive in that when i went when i started unlocking all these things it became intuitively aware in my mind how to do that stuff so i intuitively knew how to do it that's how the that's why they they i think they call it intuitive communication because once your mind was unlocked with that ability it intuitively did that yeah intuitively was able to communicate whatever it needed to communicate so you have a bunch of boxes with sine waves in them and then you're somehow associating the movements of the sine waves the clicking was the only really thing that i was associating i was associating um that was the tool by which we could do the clicking or you know to to unlock that particular tone and that ability to intuitively communicate at that whatever they called i don't even know what they called it at whatever levels those were um to me it was just a note but to whoever was teaching me it could have been another attribution you know somehow it was meant something to them but it didn't mean to me is the tone that you're listening to changing at all yeah it is the the the tones were different uh different notes for each box okay got it it was 10 notes i don't know what they were but they were 10 notes um and did the sine wave change based on the notes uh no it was just the clicking the the sine wave itself would would move based on our that i had 10 boxes one was one note one was another note one was another note one was another for the clicking aspect and then my mind was picking up on um when when they would feed me information like um a description of i would my mind would think in those terms and feedback something now i don't know what that feedback was and how because they were monitoring that on the other side they were they were trying to see whether it fit whatever it was supposed to fit in those boxes it wasn't my aspect of it was very uh one-sided i was just there to unlock what was going on in my head and we did that through the clicking but then the feet the feeding of the the information and stuff was my ability they were testing my ability as my mind's ability to to convey that in these in this type of language or communication or whatever you want to call it and so it really didn't come all together until i actually started the communications with the with the the aliens it was it was unlocked i could tell it was unlocked obviously because i was moving boxes and stuff the box didn't mean anything to me at some point after i clicked with all of them but but the communications itself was when i really realized oh this is what this is how it works this is why it's why it is what it is why we're doing this so you have 10 boxes each of which represent a note so to speak for the clicking yeah you have sine waves within each box yeah and you're trying to lock in or click into each box and you're trying to lock in or click into each box and you you end up getting them all and sort of interfacing with all of them but once i but once they started feeding me information and i was um i was supposed to intuitively communicate that back into wherever it was going or wherever it was going um then i would see boxes just going you know just doing all kinds of stuff and but i didn't correlate that with anything i they were just so presumably and maybe this is taking a leap here but i think it's going to be taking a leap here they are uh kind of pattern matching signals that you're emitting by thinking of certain things so you have a certain semantic thought like a school bus or something and then they get a certain pattern yeah and then they're doing some pattern matching right i think presumably i think the the pattern or the um this was just an the the 10 boxes were just a manifestation of what was going on but i don't think they were actually using the boxes they had their own way of doing it so i think that's a good point i think that's a good point i think that's a good point way but it was just allowing me to see it kind of gave me confidence or whatever it was kind of a visual for me so it's feedback for you that you were that you were locked into the sine wave yeah exactly but they had something on the back end or that's matching yeah symbolic concepts that you're thinking of yeah in this plane that is being unlocked in this plane that's being unlocked yeah fascinating so like you think of like a car and like they're they have some sort of signals presumably that they're going and the intuitive communications um i would i would think like i think now just like you think but i would do it in this kind of level of the brain that was was doing what was doing here that mental humming yeah that that unlocked something in my brain that was allowing it to be on that level or plane or whatever you want to call it instead of talking you know through the vocal cords and or even thinking yeah thinking is a level of intuitive or a um it's an abstract yeah it's an aspect of of the way our minds work but this was a different um a different uh modality i'm not exactly sure what word to put it to it but but and it was unlocked through that that well it almost feels like they were attempting to read a level of your thoughts that exist below symbolic abstract you know interpretation or above yeah or above but i yeah i would think maybe below like because yeah well i don't know but like you know if you have like language is very kind of high level and symbolic ultimately and you're locking on to these sine wave frequencies i would assume you know if you have in computer science you have the bit layer and then you have a higher level symbolic languages and then you have like abstract representations of you know you have icons on your computer screen ultimately and stuff like that um i would think that language is more like the icons in your computer screens on your computer screens and then there's probably some lower level of thought like some memetic thing of you know you know thinking of forms and shapes and that sort of thing and this is like another way to transmit that yeah and then you have like a higher level of symbolic languages and then you have like a higher level of that well the the way i kind of um thought about it as as the years went on and i you know would think about stuff like this um in eland we had a carrier wave you know which was the power of the of the transmission but then it was it was um encoded encoded isn't the word but i'll use that encoded the the information is encoded on that power wave so the The, our ability to communicate, talk and think that's a power wave. And then I, I put this, the IC ability as a different way to encode information on that power wave and it, and, but it's still the power that's emanating from our being, you know, we're alive and we have power. We have, we have, uh, energy emanating from us and we are the carrier wave, but the encoding of information is done through our vocal cords and through our eyes and through our mind. But this was a higher level of encoding of that, of that energy. That's kind of how I've thought about it over the years. I feel like we're saying the same thing. Yeah, probably. You're told that you need to be taking pills. Every day you're doing this. Yeah. It's two pills. Is that right? And initially it was two pills in the school. Um, what do they taste like? Um, they didn't have any taste. Did you ask, Hey, why do you, why do I have to take these pills? I did ask and, you know, as usual, it was like, well, that's just what we have to do. I wasn't told why. And, and it wasn't like, it wasn't, it wasn't a one for one type of situation too, because sometimes. I would forget to take it. There was, there were a few days when I would come back and go, Oh man, I didn't take that. I forgot to take those. Um, and I've, I've at later on, I was, I think it was one pill that I had to take later on. And sometimes I'd forget to take that too. So it wasn't like it was take pill, could do it. Didn't take pill, couldn't do it. It wasn't like that. I think it was just, I think they were just experimenting with it. Sure. Some sort of maybe intuitive communicator or supplement, so to speak. I don't know, but. I mean, they're presumably parts of the brain that enhance this stuff and ones that, yeah, hurt it maybe or impede it. Um, and that part, part of the goal for you was like flattening the sine wave, right? So it was getting the sine wave to basically the amplitude to lower into the, the sort of center of the box. Yeah. And that, and that was just, um, a, a concentration exercise, I think on the, on the actual note. Because I would, I, first I clicked it and so that was the clicking and it would move. And then, um, I was, um, instructed to move it further, you know, to move that note, but do it further. And so that was the feedback I was getting, uh, the visual feedback. I could kind of correlate it with what I was doing in my mind. And so I could get a stronger, a more focused maybe of that, uh, note and, and I, and I say no, because at some point the note went away and I could just, I just did that box. But, um. So that's it. Like the note was almost priming you for a particular box. Yeah. And then I didn't need the note. It was just that box was in my mind. Because you've had the internal humming going on. Yeah. Of that note. And again, that was, that was only to unlock that, that feature or whatever you want to call it, because the note went away and even my humming, I didn't. That went away too. I didn't have to do any of that. Yeah, it was just. And once you were locked in with a particular box, you were good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and then I, the flattening was an intensity type of situation where you, you could, and I don't think that had anything to do with the actual communications itself. It just was an exercise. It's like lift weightlifting, you know, you put more weights on it and put more weights on it until you get stronger and stronger in that box. This is so wild though, because it implies that the NSA has this whole protocol, this whole like other language. That they've developed, which I know in cryptography or whatever, maybe they have in some sense on the computer science layer, but this is like a human intuitive psychic language that the NSA has. Well, but I don't, but I don't, but I don't think the NSA, I think they administer it, but I don't think they, unless you have an alien and an IC person doing it, I don't think none of them can do it or, or at least at the time, maybe now they do. I don't, I don't know. But, um. But that's even crazier, right? Because that's almost implying that aliens coordinated with them to give humans the conventions through which like you could even lock on to this stuff. Like, like aliens were deeply involved in this program or something. They had to be. It's either that or they have this prodigy, this like insane sort of psychic conventional language that they've created, like, like the NSA. I mean, it's one or the other. I don't know. If, because I think it's a biological thing, so anything biological would have to, I mean, I guess it could be engineered at some point, you know, with the technology that we have today. Sure. It could be engineered. Neuralink has a patent on psychic communication, telepathic communications, but that's like now, right? We're like looking into that. And I do believe the narrative that things have existed in the black and then they sometimes are exfiltrated or they're like cover private companies that are actually far behind what's in the black. That's fine. And there's an actual aspect. There's an actual aspect to that in the story too, but with the white van, but I guess we'll get over that. Well, why don't we now? So, so, so you're taken to this facility in this kind of, you know, nondescript blue van and then you see a second. I saw headlights one time or lights, lights in the building that were not there typically. And so I was like, what's going on? So I looked over to the left and I could see lights shining on the wall that was in front of the blue van, but over a little bit further to. Over on the other side of the van. So I was obviously curious. And so I went, I didn't want to go into the front of the van cause he's a good driver. You know, I, for some reason, this driver had this mystical monster, um, imagery in my head because I could never talk to him. I never knew who it was, so I didn't want to get in his bad side. So I went to the back of the van and I looked around and I saw the bumper of a white van. It was a white van on, uh, on the. On the other side of the blue van. And that's what was, had the headlights on. And, and as soon as I got back there, he honked his horn, the blue van, honked his horn. I was like, oh, okay, nevermind. Now I'm going to my door. Thank you. I don't, don't eat me or do whatever you're going to do. And so I, I saw that white van and, um, later on, I don't know how much later, um, days, maybe I, I was taking an exit to get to the hotel in Maryland. And, um, I was turning right and I saw white van turning left at that exit and I was, and I thought there's no possible way this could be the same van and, but, you know, it's in the area and, you know, who knows, right? So I, but then I remembered, I remembered, um, I actually, when I saw the van, I remembered it not only then, but I remembered it when I saw the van, I was like, that has a dent. It was an identifying feature. And so I looked at it, I looked at the white van that I saw at the exit and sure enough, it had that same exact, uh, dent. So my, I was like, what do I do? What do I do? Do I, do I, um, I had to follow it. I mean, there's just no possible way. I was too curious. So I, I kind of nudged it over. I put my sink blinker on and I nudged over to, to follow that van and it went to, um, a, a company called. What's up guys. One of today's sponsors is us American alchemy. We just launched what I think is maybe the coolest merch line in the world. When you're wearing it, it's not like you're shilling me or the channel. They're just really Epic. And I think they look good. We have a couple of amazing designs for you. We have our cowboy UFO tee, pretty Epic. You see, there's a rancher he's witnessing a UFO, a little cow is getting abducted by the UFO in the background. It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. And then, you know that I love mid-century history, specifically spooky science, atomic era stuff. And so we have our atomic age tee here, uh, pretty cool vibe. Uh, you got a robot serving this guy, a little martini, and then a UFO off to the side, go to American alchemy, merch.com American alchemy, M E R C H.com to check out all of this amazing new apparel. The cowboy tee that I'm wearing is a hundred percent cotton, super relaxed fit. We went for quality on these, uh, so check them out. And it went to, um, a, a company called noise cancellation technology and CT. Um, that's the name of the company and CT, I believe this, they went by the initials and, and I was like, okay, well, there's some sort of. Interesting little correlation there. More corroboration for Dan Sherman story exists around this company. He followed this mysterious second van into and CT or noise cancellation technologies, noise cancellation technologies incorporated is on record. Having had multiple contracts with government and military organizations in June of 1991, the Washington post reported that noise cancellation technologies incorporated in length. to come Maryland won a $210,000 contract from DARPA or the defense advanced research projects agency for research and development. Well, 1991 was exactly when. Dan Sherman was getting trained as an intuitive communicator by Project Preserve Destiny. And Linthicum, Maryland is right by where he was stationed getting trained by the NSA. All of this was also a very short drive to Fort Meade, where the government historically has run its psychic spy program. But I'm sure all of these are just coincidences. Noise cancellation technology's military ties run even deeper. The company is referenced in an Office of Naval Research bulletin about acoustics research in Europe, and they've been publicly involved in further NASA and Army-funded research. According to the company's own website, NCT is a leading technology company dedicated to the development and commercialization of active wave management applications. The electronic manipulation of sound signal waves to reduce noise, improve signal-to-noise ratios, and enhance sound quality. All sounds like stuff that could be pretty relevant to what a young Sergeant Dan Sherman was doing for the NSA. But what's the difference between the two? Very interesting. Yeah, yeah. Because he was in the same garage. Now, you know, I don't know what the exact correlation is. Well, it makes total sense. You're wearing headphones. They're doing something with kind of exotic communications. It's not one that you are making up. There's corroboration of them working with the government and other contacts outside of this possible NSA collaboration. Well, and they could be also doing a black project that's covering a gray project. So it's. I mean, there's a high likelihood that that's true because I saw. I mean, I correlated the two, so. Yeah, and you even talk about. You've hypothesized that exotic propulsion might involve noise cancellation in some way. I mean, there are all sorts of things that. Electromagnetic energy is. It's an amazing phenomenon. I agree. It's funny. In and around the whole alien UFO space, you get a lot of, like, Lockheed Martin executives, like, saying weird things like, all you need is Maxwell. Or Maxwell's equations. And you change a thing or two, and you're all good. Like, implying that general relativity, Einstein, even, you know, quantum mechanics in some ways are, like, way less important than Maxwell, which governs all of electromagnetism for things like exotic propulsion. So. Yeah. Yeah. It's very powerful. And, yeah, there are even. There are fields of, like, extended electrodynamics. I don't know if you've ever heard of extended electrodynamics. Is that something that's. Ever come to mind? Across. It is. I've heard of it. Yeah. So it's this idea that, you know, obviously, in traditional electromagnetism, you have a transverse Hertzian wave. So you have, you know, a B field, an E field, an electric field, a magnetic field, which are perpendicular to one another, and then perpendicular as well as wave propagation. And that's, like, pretty much all you can do, right? But that limits you. Like, for undersea communications, you get electrons pairing off because of the presence of magnetic field. You know? So, obviously, deep space communications are going to be hard. It's going to decay at one over R squared. And this is this idea that. Actually, this Navy whistleblower came out on my show that's described a couple of. Hal Puthoff has patents in this area in extended electrodynamics, that there are exotic wave types in what's called a scalar field, where wave propagation might occur at one over R instead of one over R squared. So they attenuate way less over. At long distances in space-time. Without increasing power? With that. What's that? And so it would unlock all sorts of crazy, crazy things, if true. And Hal Puthoff's this really interesting character in all of this because he obviously ran the CIA's psychic spy program. And I've asked him point blank, do you think psychic communication is occurring along the lines of this extended electrodynamics where you have patents? And he's. He said to me, yeah, I do think that's the case. That's fascinating. Isn't that fascinating? Yeah. I find that so interesting. And he's using these Josephson junction, you know, quantum receivers, basically, to. So it's these, you know, vector and scalar potentials in the subquantum field that are doing the communications. So this is absolutely mind-blowing. And it makes sense, right? Because, like, you look at the early Stargate experiments, you look at the stuff, you know, we're going to get into it. You, they would put remote viewers, you know, in submarines and put them at the bottom of the ocean and they would have the exact same, you know, all this stuff seems to be agnostic of both space and time. They'd get the exact same results and efficacy when it came to remote viewing. And so it would make sense that you'd have some exotic electromagnetic communication ability that. Yeah. Yeah. That's mind-boggling. Okay. So you're at this school and you're going every day. And you're in this van and you've tracked down this other van. Are you still. Whatever happened to Electronics Intelligence School, the Air Force continuing education thing that you were supposed to do? Well, I had to do that during the day. Okay. I was doing that for, you know, seven, eight hours. And then I would come back to the hotel and have a little break and then I would get picked up again by the van. So. Did anybody say, hey, Dan, you want to, you know, go out tonight, grab a drink or something? Oh, yeah. What would you have to say? I was the loner. You know, I was always the one that was, no, no, I'm good. I'll be in the room. I'm a little tired. Yeah. Yeah. And I did get asked several times. They would ask me, where are you going? Because you're not in your room and your car is here. Where are you going? And I always had some sort of excuse, like I met a girl or, you know, we went out and, you know, she drove. And that's true of anybody that's in these types of things is it doesn't comport with reality, with your real life. So, you have to create this alternative universe sometimes where you have to exist in that universe too with other people. And like nobody at any of my bases, they didn't know what was going on either. And I mean, I can't remember specific examples, but I'm sure that I had to come up with some BS when something didn't exactly gel with what was supposed to be going on, like in the van. Yeah. So, that is just the life of somebody who is in that type of situation. And you were given a code, right, for Project Preserve Destiny, like you had a code name or something? Oh, Staunch. Yeah. Staunch 118. Staunch 118. Yeah. Okay. And that was on the computer screen. When I would open up the dialog box, I would have to choose Staunch 118. And so, how long does your schooling last and what happens? I think it was three months. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I believe that. And no alien direct communication during the schooling? No. No. You're just told to flatten these? Wait. Okay. And so, what happens next? I go back to my base that I was stationed at the time and just went back to my Elant job doing stuff. And then, I'm not exactly sure how long it was, but several months went by, and I finally got orders. Okay. So, I went back to my first PPD base, which was overseas, and then I went to that base. And I was there for, again, my security clearances weren't there yet, so I was kind of in this limbo state. And they finally came. And then, I got a phone call, like we mentioned earlier, somebody knocked on my door and said, "Somebody wants you on the phone, the dorm phone." It was outdoors, too. It was in a warm climate. Mm-hmm. And so, there were outdoor hallways. And so, I would have to go around the building, and the phone was on the outside there. And so, anyway, picked it up, and it was Captain White, my first contact officer. And he said, "You're going to be. " He told me the name of my next contact, which happened to be my first contact with Captain White. Yeah. And he said, "You're going to be. " He said, "You're going to be the next contact with Captain White." And I said, "You're going to be the next contact with Captain White." And he said, "You're going to be. " He told me the name of my next contact, which happened to be my unit commander, which kind of makes sense, because I think he was the only captain there in our division, or in our little area. And so, he told me his name, and he said, "You're going to be the next contact with Captain White." And I said, "You're going to be the next contact with Captain White." And he said, "You're going to be the next contact with Captain White." area. And so, um, he told me his name and, and, and that he'll be crossing his arms. I already knew who he was. I don't know why this was all so cloak and dagger because all he would have said, had to say was it's your unit commander and you can just go talk to him. But anyway, they did all the crossing arms and stuff. And, um, so he told me when to meet him and he'll be out front. And so I went and at that time and did it, met him and he took me into the facility. Um, we, the facility that I worked, it was a, a base that was kind of had one mission, but we had this like little detachment that was part of the base. It was on base, but we had our own little security system, fences, the whole nine yards. And cause it was way more classified than anything. And so, um, it has its own guard shack and its own requirements to go through and all that and its own, um, security systems in the buildings and all. So we went in, he brought me into a conference room and I was there with, um, another person that was from my base that the other base, we just so happened that we got assigned here together and we were going through the same indoctrination. for our job and all that. he was there too and um and a couple other people too and so we were being indoctrinated into the into the program into the black project that we were in and um and then as i recall i think heat uh captain took me aside somebody they they took other people for a tour of the facility and the captain said i'm going to take dan and so that's when he brought me into um well we talked in the conference room first and he told me you know we talked about the the the program and and um just you know small talk about the program you went to school and oh great you got certified and and you're gonna be an interior communicator isn't that cool you know we just had this little banter and and and then he took me into the one of the uh we call them the c-vans their c is for communication but you don't have to have a communication in the c-van it's just a c-van that's what they call and so um we had several c-vans on site and one was our particular part of the black project and so he took me in there it's a two-person van for security reasons there always has to be two people in the van at all times other than a little bit of bathroom break here and there um and um he i asked about the the other aspect of my job the black project he said don't worry about that you'll be other people will talk to you about that i'm going to talk to you about the gray project and so he showed me how to open the the screen and i already knew how to do all this from the the previous time but he maybe thought i didn't i don't know or he didn't know that it was the same system but he showed me how to bring up the box the communications box and um just went over the logistics of it you know how i would be with this other guy but we couldn't intermingle as far as you know he didn't know about this and we had what was called left seat right seat seemed like you know for pilots you know they had the left seat in the right seat we had that too the left seat was the different aspect of the black job black project job and mine the right seat was another aspect of the black project but then also mine was a gray project and then my computer i had that thing that i could open up the dial-up box and he said i asked him you know when is it going to start do i do you know when i'm going to start communicating or you know he knew nothing he's like all i know is this is your box this is your man that's crazy and that's all i know so you're you're sitting across from a guy who's doing normal classified electronics intelligence you're sitting across from a guy who's doing normal classified electronics intelligence next to a guy who's doing traditional conventional electronics intelligence work and i was too but and you were as well but then you had this other yeah thing that you're doing around intuitive communication yeah and that guy has no idea what you're doing no no and the guy who's briefing you who presumably captain white told you about uh he knows very little in some ways like he's giving you he's just the administrator he doesn't know did you ever try to kind of cross-check cross-check because i'm sure i'm sure along the way you're trying to suss this project out you know throughout not the time not at the time okay no you were just taking orders yeah exactly did you did you ever try and you have to remember also this is before the internet before you know you're just isolated basically you're intellectually isolated you're just following orders and that's it you know today i could just get on google and go you know do all kinds of research about stuff but i couldn't back then did you ever try to just see if this other you know air force officer captain who's dealing with ppd at this or project preserved destiny at this overseas base if his answers coincided with what you were told initially by captain white to see you know could kind of cross-check well they were all coincided they did yeah everything was the same okay yeah so there it was it wasn't like because yeah if i were you i'd be like well maybe i am getting hazed and i'd try to poke and like ask person b the same questions i asked person a and see if their answers were the same my intentions were not as devious as that fair enough i just was wide-eyed and bushy-tailed that's all sure sure i was just following orders but from your experience it the answers were mostly the same it felt very coherent yeah definitely i mean and they knew so very little that it was very easy to be coherent because there was not much to it you know and this is actually i think you said at the book this guy's name was sergeant larson is that right no it was a captain i think the larson was a sergeant he was in the room with us but he wasn't okay involved with but i believe i believe from your book you asked sergeant larson some questions about the secrecy and he went into the onion stuff but he didn't say the gray black oh he didn't talk about the gray black during our during our black introduction he went into the onion thing yeah which was which which to me is interesting because it was like he was holding back the idea that the gray projects are concealed within the the black projects and said no okay interesting yeah he he only went up to the black project because he probably got a at some point a speech about onion the onion aspect but only to the black yeah layer so to speak because in your book you're you're thinking like you know i know something you don't know or something yeah yeah interesting that's true okay so you are sitting at this sort of terminal does it look basically the same as you know the nsa complex that you were in i can't remember but they i think they all had about the same like the basic yeah these big sun or spark i think there's spark uh monitors okay we had yeah i don't even know the brand yeah it was um back then you know monitors were this big and and wide you know big and the screen was only about that big so when we had these big spark uh monitors everybody's like you know anybody that look at it not not familiar like wow you you got the cadillac here what's going on here you guys your budget's high so yeah we had these spark i think they were called spark i think that was the name sun spark something like that and so you put your headphones on you take the pills same thing yep um no no no headphones no headphones yeah we didn't have headphones in the in the van okay um uh but you know i had a mouse and in the and the monitor and yeah i took the pills he he told me that he had a bottle of pills he said um you have to take these i said yeah we i took those in school too and he said i said two right and he goes no just one take one i was like oh okay well it was two before yeah okay so i'll take one now and we had these little um each had storage units and and we would we would share these seats with other people i mean we were the only shift we were one shift but then another shift would come in so we had our own little cubby so to speak for each person and i would just keep the pills there okay and so you are in this van is that's your workstation now and you take the pills and then what are you told to do he didn't tell me to do anything he said it's just going to come when it comes and and it's going to start when it starts that's it that's all the direction i got is like uh what um is there any should i expect anything is there any timing on this he says i have no idea you're just i'm i'm here to tell you how to how to facilitate what you're supposed to do and that's it so it took a while it took um i can't remember how long but it was it was a while later that the first con came and that's when it the ball started rolling so to speak and when you say the first comms came you weren't just get it receiving basically thoughts yep um i would receive like um uh i think the first communication was something like prepare prepare for receiving or prepare for something prepare for communication and that would be the the thing that would kick off like i my attention would go to the next thing and i would be like oh my god i'm going to be like oh my god i'm going to go towards that did those thoughts have a different quality from your own thoughts um yeah yeah it was it was within a um uh it's really really really hard um it was an area of my brain and when you think you don't think of an area like you know when let's say you're thinking about you know the the mic stand and you're you don't you can't correlate where that is in your head that you're thinking that i mean you don't know where the snaps are going but with um with the ic communication you can feel it in your brain you can feel now you can't you can't localize it it's not a localization but i can feel like it's in that area of my brain right there whoa and it's like a colorful tapestry and you have you can focus on this over here or you can focus right here you can focus right here you can focus over here you can but it's it's focused wherever wherever that um comes from, you focus right there. Okay. That's where it's coming from. And then that stops and you go, okay, there's something over here. So I focus on that. And so the, when the first communication would come in, I, in my mind's eye, so to speak, the tapestry came up and I was like, okay, this is where I'm communicating right now. I'm communicating this tapestry. That's the only way I can really vocalize the visualization. Do you remember which parts of your brain? No, there was, I couldn't, I couldn't localize it, you know, but I could tell that it's in a certain area. Whoa. Yeah. So somehow more of a discrete area than the general. I felt it. It's more of a feel than it is a scene, but you could feel that it's coming from a certain area. Did it feel more foreign than your thought? Like, did your, do your thoughts feel like yours and these thoughts felt like others? Yeah. It felt like it was external from the kind of, when compared to your own thoughts, it wasn't external. It didn't feel, it didn't really feel external. It was here. I know, but, but compared to your own thoughts, it feels very foreign and very different. So what happens next? So I started getting communications, started receiving them. I pop up the window and I would start typing the, whatever I was interpreting at receiving. And at first it was just numbers. It was, it was an idea. Well, I would get a preamble, like the one and one eight. And this is where I'm really showing my, how long ago this was, but it was like that. And then I think there was like a, a five digit or six digit or something like that number after the one, one eight. And I never really knew what that was, but it was something I called it a zip code. Cause it looked like a zip code, but it wasn't, it wasn't a zip code. Um, and then I would do slashes after each, um, focus, you know, of where in the tapestry I'd go again. And so I'd put a slash and then I put the, whatever it was. And, uh, it was just numbers initially. So you were almost picturing a canvas and like words coming on. No, no, it wasn't. No. I, like when you say slash, how are you, you're seeing this? No, no, no. Um, when I would receive the communication and I'm, I'm, this is me, um, putting this into words, but it's not necessarily exactly this, but this is the best way I can convey it. There's this area in my brain or in my thoughts, and it's like a tapestry that has a lot of depth and it has, it can be very colorful. I think that's just my interpretation of, of what's going on. I think the colors would be different for other people, but it's just, it has color to it. And so I would see in my mind's eye, I would see that there's a communication right in this area of that overall tapestry, so to speak. And then I would look at that. I mean, I would concentrate on it. I would focus on that. And that would be a communication and it would be, it could be an image. It could be a number. It could be a feeling, a smell. It could be anything. It could be whatever we can convey in communication. Like I could, I could, um, make a smell here and I can communicate that to you. Well, that, that smell would be communicated to you. And I could do that in that too. I could, I could actually, um, although I don't think I ever did, but I think I could actually get a smell through that. I could get any type of communication through it. So I would look at and then I would convey that. And then I would put a slash and then another area would come into focus and I would focus on that and then put that communication down, put a slash, and then another area would come up and I would put a slash. So I would get these different communications through these different focuses. Yeah. And when you say put a slash, are you on the computer on that? You're typing the computer. So you think, and then you type, I would receive, yeah. Yeah. And, and type it, whatever it was that was in that little area of the communication. Okay. And then I would put a slash when that was over or done or went on to another one. So they, they were, they were, um, concepts that were in different bites, so to speak. So as soon as you comprehended a particular concept, you'd put a slash and then you'd get another communication. But I would, I would see it, not, not visually, but I would know that was in another area and I would concentrate on that and I could get that. And were you thinking in words or were you thinking in content when you were receiving? Yeah. I would have to, I mean, because we're, because we're humans, so we. You'd have to translate it immediately. Exactly. Well, it wasn't so much a translation. Like would it come through in words? Yeah. It would come through in that. Okay. It would come through in that, whatever it was that I was, um, uh, reporting. Yeah. Um, like in that area, I would see the numbers. I would see four, five, seven, eight, two, and I would type that. And then later on, when I started getting visual stuff, I would see like a little, like one time I, I saw, um, a missile, um, uh, being launched and, or not, it wasn't a missile. It was a rocket rocket. And, um, I can see around the payload area. I could see the seams and, uh, and, uh. Like. Like it had blown up. I could actually see that in my, in that tapestry, so to speak. And so I would, I would describe that, I mean, like rocket blowing up and I mean, you could get into a, a higher or lower level of detail, depending on how much time you had to type. And, but, and, and the visual wasn't there for long either. It would just come and I would see it and then it would, it would fade out. Did you try to correlate the. Thoughts or messages you were receiving with real events. So like that rocket blowing up, you know, look up, you know, I mean, that's hard to do on the internet, but I did, um, um, there was a, it was in the news. I think there was a, um, a Chinese launch of a, of a rocket that had blown up. I don't remember whether I correlated it with that or not, but I remember looking that up and seeing that, but I don't remember if it was the same. One that, that you received, because in your book, you say like Arianne likes, you know, certain company launches, you felt like you were tapping into the actual rockets launching, which is fascinating. Like, well, I think it was just, um, whoever's got their fingers on the pulse of whatever's going on here. I think it was their, um, way of testing my ability to convey different types of messages, you know, different, different, um, genre. And, and it could have been, you know, they were testing my ability to describe what was going on in a, in a military type of functioning or the, you know, mechanical and, and all the stuff that went along what I saw, you know, did I describe, was it white or would I describe the length of it or what would I actually describe when given that message? And so kind of testing. And I'm sure everybody else who was doing a, they was an IC and the system was getting the same types of things so that you can see who is better at what, or this is what I was thinking later on when I thought about this is that it could have been like a testing who is able to do what. At what point do you start speaking with aliens? Um, that was it. That was during that time. That was a coming from an alien. And, and does that alien. Reveal itself as having a personality. Um, yeah, the, the first one, he was, I sensed a very logical structure and, and, um, I look back on it now. I don't think I really, um, kind of, I didn't put it in the best words back when I wrote the book, but I, but I look on it now and I think it was the, um, I did say in the book that it. I think I'd said that he was very logical. It was very, um, more structured. The communication was a little bit more structured and it wasn't as, you know, that tapestry that I talked about. It wasn't as, um, his wasn't as, um, um, not linear abstract or, yeah, it was much more, I wish I had more experiences of more aliens so I could see the differences because. I only saw two and the, and Spock, the first one, he was, um, his tapestry. And again, I just say tapestry because I don't know how to explain it, but, um, his fog, so to speak, or whatever was very, um, very linear. Yeah. It was, uh, in my mind's eye, it was very straight like this. His communications were in a straight line. Like the, the one area would have one. piece of communication, and then it would be right here, and then it'd be right here. and then be right here and then it'd be right here right so it was very straight and does he introduce himself or you call him small no okay so i guess i have to explain that uh um the reason why i know i i never got a name from him or anything like that but his communications were very logical and so my friend and i were we were star trek fans and i just thought it was funny just to refer to him as Spock. And I wasn't referring to him to anybody else. So the joke was lost on the world until I wrote my book. Did you address him directly when you're sending messages back? Did you address him as Spock? No, no, no, no. I never, no. I never said that. I don't even know if he would know who Spock was. We don't even, maybe we don't even know it's a he. Yeah, well, I think that, I guess no, but I did sense that it was a male, male energy. And what is Spock saying to you? Well, it was all very, very number oriented. It wasn't until I got to my second base that I started getting the imagery type stuff. But the first was very Spock. Well, okay, so. At the end of my time at first, the first base, I was doing a communication. I was receiving something. And the only reason that I would communicate back to him is like, can you repeat that? Or can you say that again or do that again? There was no real back and forth. But I went into, and this is the hardest thing to explain, I think. And I say plain, but. But it was. I wanted to ask him a question. So I was really hesitant to do that. I wanted to start asking questions and I was, I was trying to get up the, the courage to break from the formality of our communications so that I could ask a question and I really didn't know how to do that intuitively. I didn't know. I didn't know what the protocol would be for that. I was receiving stuff. And I could actually convey messages back as far as feedback and stuff. But I didn't know what the, the, the formality would be to have an informal conversation or, or to ask something that had nothing to do with our communication. So I, I think it was because I was so, um, anxious or, um, I charged about it that I, you know, I asked him a question, but then it w it, it was the weirdest thing because it went into another, I, I say plain, but I can't really explain. It was a different, it was a different tapestry. Let's just say that way. You know, the, the tapestry that I keep on alluding to, it was a, like a, um, you know how I said you can focus further away and then closer, you know, like the lens that I told you about the camera. Yeah. Um, this one. It was like, uh, like a macro, like it came, came closer to me and it was, and it was different. It was different than the, the, um, tapestry that I keep talking about. Anyway. So I asked him a question in this plane and I didn't, and it shocked me when I did that. Cause when I asked the question, I was just asking it in the other realm, so to speak. But when I did that, it came up closer. Again, closer isn't a proximity. But it was just my, my way of explaining the visual of it in my head. Um, and, and so I asked the question and then I also shocked myself because I was like, that's a different, I, I said that differently. It went out differently. Yeah. And then he, I sensed he was also shocked. Like I didn't realize that you could do that. I can't remember the exact communication, but, um. Um, and so I, I, I asked questions and honestly, I can't remember a lot of the questions I asked. I, I, I'm what was the, so you have this different plane of communication initially when you're communicating with Spock, he, he's just giving you like strings of numbers, like things that don't mean much to you or. Yeah. Well, I, I mean, none of it, well, until we got to the imagery part, it, none of it really meant anything to me. So it was like, you were just relaying this information to the NSA. Yeah. And, but you didn't really know what you were relaying. Yeah, exactly. But then when I asked these, did I ask a question and, and again, I can't remember the name of what the question was, but, um, he, he seemed shocked. And I, I said, am I allowed to speak like this in this realm or I can't remember how I said it, but like at this level and, and he said, yeah, it's. It's fine. And we just didn't realize that you could, and I'm paraphrasing, of course, my thoughts, but we just didn't realize that you could do that. And I was like, oh, okay, so is this okay? And he goes, yeah, it's fine. But, um, but he didn't want to, but again, he didn't want to chat though. I mean, it wasn't a, I don't think it was, it was in the purview of the, the program to chat with these people. It was, or these humans, you know, it was just the, the testing that was going on, but I was able to ask. You know, the questions I wrote in the book, you know, I had some questions and overall, overall impressions of what I got from those questions. What are, what are some of those questions that you have? Well, like the, like the, um, how did they get here? How did they travel and about time? Cause I've always been interested in time. I asked him about going back and forward in time and he said, you can't really go back and forward in time because time is a relative thing. So you don't know if, if you're going back, then what are you coming back? From there's, there's no, there's no solid moment in time that you can measure from to go back and forward from so, but he said, you can go around time. And I didn't really understand when he was telling me that I was not understanding what he was saying by saying that. I mean, there wasn't any, um, it wasn't a thesis written out so that I can analyze it. He just gave me the impression that you can go around time. And I think that's how they do their. Travel too, is, is they, they use time, but in, in a way that we really can't, we don't really understand. Could be like in a higher dimensional space or something. I mean, this is all, you know, total speculation, but like maybe, you know, you think about the fourth dimension of time or time as humans know it, and it is this linear, you know, permanently progressing thing you get in the river, you know, that's the kind of metaphor, you know, and, and you can't get out, you know? You had a higher dimensional, you know, temporal dimension or something, you might be able to, you know, jump in and out or so like, think about actually like a, like a Tesseract, you know? And the Tesseract is, is, is, is, uh, curling around or whatever. It's like kind of like a sine wave or like a snake or something. Um, and you think of that as, you know, it's 3d 3d, uh, uh, you know, inside of it or whatever. So you have like north, south, east, west above sea. Level below sea level. So you have three degrees of motion and, um, you know, if you were to, you could hop from this part of the coil to this part of the coil or whatever. And that would be actually like a very short distance if you had some higher abstraction of time, but it wouldn't, if that was all you had, right. And that's where the wormholes come in, where you come from one, one aspect of the temporal to the next aspect of the temporal. So you can travel between the two. Yeah. Yeah. It's I, I didn't really. I didn't understand it. And I just kind of, it, it was my understanding of my rudimentary level of communication, you know, of knowing knowledge and time and all that. That's where I, I distilled it to that. He said around time, but he could have met something different too. I don't know. Well, John Wheeler, famous Princeton physicist thought that there might be Wheeler tunnels everywhere, which are basically little wormholes or black holes. Nobody knows what happens beyond the event horizon of the black hole. And so, and then obviously time and gravity have this really important connection and you get these super dense, you know, formations like black holes, time moves slower. And so you, you know, almost theoretically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it, it definitely was fascinating. And just the little bit that I did get from him, it blew my mind. Um, and he also, um, mentioned, uh, we talked about, uh, the sun. He said that I, I. I, I in particular remember this one because he, um, he was so, um, very, it's almost as if they respected our sun, um, more than you would think that, and, you know, you, we take the sun for granted. It's just the sun, you know, that, that's where we get sunlight and energy and, and it's no big deal. But he, he kind of. I felt it was more of a reverence, uh, um, feeling towards the sun because he was talking about how we really don't understand the. value of our sun and that we will at some point eventually understand it it's funny i um had an off-record conversation so i won't say who it was with but with somebody who i think is knowledgeable around ufo reverse engineering programs and he made this analogy of the sun being some sort of like portal to other star systems and i don't know you think about the the sun is so interesting you have on cotton you know the sun god and even if you read isaac asimov wrote a book called the kingdom of the sun where it talks about the changing conception of humanity's understanding of the sun and you read about you know copernicus who you know theorized the heliocentric universe and he had this very mystical conception of the sun that went well beyond just him thinking it was some you know linchpin or whatever necessary necessary for you know uh planetary organization yeah um so yeah i don't know yeah it's it's um and we are you know we are discovering more and more about the sun and we're sending probes and and all that and it's still a very wide open discovery platform i think for science definitely and yeah i think you write in your book that spock even said that your scientists are just now figuring out how the sun generates energy and you know you have obviously cardish of scales which kind of measure you know how advanced the civilization is and you know level two would be basically creating a dyson sphere which is harnessing the energy of the sun so maybe not in our lifetime but maybe not in our lifetime but i mean the sun is a fusion generator and you know there are nuclear fusion startups now which is you know this controlled fusion is this holy grail of energy generation so anyway that those are those those are the kind of the highlights um it it wasn't a treasure trove of information and i wish it was because it would make the book a lot more interesting that's for sure but it was um these are just kind of the impressions that i got and it was a it was a a fascinating experience i can't really emphasize enough that it is something that our world is slowly coming to terms with i've actually been asked just recently to be part of the congressional you know testimony and all that stuff and there's a there's a certain project that's out they've labeled a project disclosure or something like that we're slowly yeah slowly getting to that point where the government is going to have to say something or give some some little tidbit of information to the world because you would think the pressure is just yeah you just can't explain it away through campfire stories anymore uh i just want to get back to the core details of the spock thing so did are you seeing a gray alien in your mind's eye okay now i never saw any visualization of of their what they look like so just just you're having semantic concepts kind of come into your your mind yeah tapestry i have the same stereotypical view of an alien that everybody else has yeah i don't have any um although when i see an alien like um you know a a fictional character or whatever i always um i always put i overlay my communications onto that so that it becomes a little bit more um important or not important but uh it has a different aspect to it when i look at an alien as opposed to if somebody else looks at it yeah i know i imagine it has a very different connotation like i know something like that is probably real yeah um did you would have any sort of feeling towards spock did you develop a liking to him or were you like you know this is some no foreign weird thing that i'm you know it well i think it uh largely has to do with the fact that we never really became intimate as far as our conversations so you kind of it it might as well have just been the computer at the school as far as i was concerned right other than um the the the colorful um colorful the the detail of the of what i was communicating through now my tapestry so to speak um that was different i mean that was all new to me it i was able to tap into it easily because of my training but the training never i never saw that that um venue of communication until i actually got the communications from the aliens until then it was very it was very um um it was very clean it was um let's say what's the word um sanity it was sanitized sanitized it was very uh clean it's almost like you were like a human antenna or something yeah or a conduit or yeah yeah i i kind of um look at it as like a it was chromatic that type of communication was chromatic where the the the the the the the the the the the this was very organic and very colorful and very um um clear you know there was a lot of clarity to it is there anything special about the base where you were like maybe i'm being asked to do this project preserve destiny and communicate with aliens because this base is located in a particular place that's unique or has some equipment that might be good for alien communications or well um the project that i worked on i mean other than um project preserved destiny the black project was a very interesting into itself i mean that would be a podcast that anybody would love to hear because it was just so interesting um and it had to do with electromagnetic stuff but um interesting uh it was i don't i don't know if there would be any correlation between the two i mean other than just being the cover for it yeah because i think i don't know there are guys that come up in ufo lore like robert starbacher and he was actually i just we were talking about whitley streber before this started rolling and he was looking to whitley streber they were about to meet the day he died but he was this guy sarbacher ran r d under vannevar bush like he was basically vannevar bush's air he ran the whole washington you know uh national labs he was like an atomic energy kind of godfather in the united states and he in 1987 towards the end of his life started to come out and write letters to ufo researchers like this guy william steinman and say you know um the ufo rumors are substantially true vannevar bush was involved in this project as was john von neumann and all these things and he wrote a book called ultra high frequency engineering i i wonder if his vector in the whole ufo thing was some sort of communication modality with the aliens that was maybe what was the on that side of the electromagnetic spectrum what was the content of his book what did it what did it talk about you know it's chinese to me it's like extremely esoteric it talks about radio though yeah as far as waves electromagnetic energy is that what is yeah i don't know what what exact spectrum but i i i don't mean the spectrum i just mean it's about about electromagnetic energy yes yeah yeah yeah exactly well and but was it was it about um the government's involvement with it or just no it's just a general sort of textbook on it i see yeah yeah interesting i don't know did you at any point think that maybe this wasn't an alien on the other end of the communication you were just being told that because i do think this is the what makes this whole topic so tricky is that in certain cases the reverse dynamic of what you just of what we've been talking about this entire time sometimes you're not tagging a gray project with the black project but you're tagging a black project with the gray fake gray thing to catch spies you know it's this classic intelligence move say you had some like anti-gravity vehicle or whatever you'd call it alien and then you'd write a bunch of fake documents that you know talk about aliens or whatever interesting and then it would like you it'd be like putting like a die into a pipe and you'd see the communication trail and you'd catch soviet spies or you know you do also throw people off the trail or whatever maybe you'd initiate recruits because it would be sort of a puzzle for them to figure out so it would like serve all these purposes to actually call black stuff alien so did you ever think maybe i was actually i'm actually just communicating with you know in a way that breaks physics which is fascinating or the physics as we know it but humans through more mind matter parapsychological means now we have like the telepathy tapes one of the most popular podcasts in the u.s uh earlier this year yeah you're probably familiar i i heard the name yeah talks about these like uh non-verbal often autistic children uh who you know can telepathically communicate and commune on this sort of hill it's absolutely fascinating sort of send each other images at really high accuracy rates and so did you ever think maybe you were part of a human parapsychology program and they were tagging it with the alien thing um i gave that some thought um especially when i was writing the book i i wanted to kind of flesh out my my thoughts on on um how how it, how it was, um, how it would be interpreted into the public, you know, and, and what people would ascribe to my experience and how they would, uh, try to block or try to get it off what I thought and go into other, other areas. And so I did think of that and I, I guess it's possible, you know, it's, it's not impossible, obviously because i never saw an alien i never even visually i never saw an alien and never got any indicator as to what um they were human or not um but i i can say that the the way the communications happened unless um unless we've we've somehow gained the ability to do that in some way the the style of communication was very foreign to how our minds think yeah so maybe on this plane even if you have two humans that is kind of the standard by which you would communicate in that in that way even between you two humans but i i got this distinct um impression that it was not a human yeah but you're also talking about strings of numbers and like it does feel foreign the way it's being communicated doesn't feel like it's interesting i mean there are non-verbal tribes indigenous tribes that talk about the ancient language where they are able to kind of communicate telepathically with each other and there are people with mind melds going on you know like couples over long periods of time and that's where say twins i mean they're the classic example um and so but this felt like a different variety yeah but the communications i would think anyway the communications in that way would still be human type of communications because we think that's what i'm saying this felt qualitatively different yeah yeah as far as what was coming in yeah and i and i can't and i can't really um attribute it to or can't compare it to anything else yeah that i could vocalize to you it's just completely different yeah yeah yeah i mean there are theoretical way like have you heard of bone induction do you know what that is well i've seen those speakers you know that you can put around your your neck or whatever they had the bone induction exactly hear sound classic example is beethoven was deaf and so like he would uh actually uh bite onto a conductive rod that was connected with his piano and he would play notes and then he would hear it because it would bypass his ear canal and so there are ways to communicate semantic information that bypass the traditional kind of auditory track and actually the director of the nsa while you were in your program was this guy bobby ray inman who's on record a record talking about ufos with this ufo researcher named bob oxler i don't know if you know about this on a phone call do you uh anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would ever be uh become available for technological research outside of the uh military circles again i honestly don't know uh 10 years ago the answer would have been no whether his time has evolved they're beginning to become more open on it there's a possibility he he then goes on to you know work at saic it's this you know big military contractor that you know made tons of money during star wars and you know strategic defense initiative and then they got into psychotronic research and psychotronic weaponry and stuff and so it's always this question for me is like what came first is it the alien stuff or is it the weird mk ultra like kind of you know like embedded implant sort of you know communication stuff and you know it's funny i i definitely don't shake out that old human technology explains all of this stuff like i think your story is like a great example of that but it's such an interesting history yeah so i don't i i just back to your original question i think that um i'm pretty convinced it was alien yeah but there's no way that i could prove it in court yeah well no that's an intellectually honest uh you know readout and i appreciate that and you know it's i think it's extremely fascinating either way but i that's true i mean even if it were two humans it would still be fascinating still breaking paradigm physics and and also a totally you know new area for the nsa nobody thinks they're involved with but i uh i you know after reading your book going through all your stuff watching all your interviews i also think it's genuinely alien but um okay so uh that was the first base uh you're gonna take a sip of water and i'm gonna take a sip of water and i'm gonna yeah we can do it on camera too yeah yeah that's true yeah we could always yeah be at least we don't have the cigars like uh rogan yeah yeah yeah are you a fan of his yeah yeah he's he's um interesting i've been a fan of his as a comedian too i mean yeah his comedy is epic yeah he's he's amazing i think he's so cool i think he's such a good good guy he's so genuinely curious and all this stuff yeah oh yeah definitely he's a curious mind i love that i love when people are curious yes and not um semantic and wrote and you know just within your own box yeah i want to look out at other things it's good i think it's fear it's like in you if you can't integrate something with your worldview you have this like immune reaction oh yeah you just you don't want to look at it well we're going through that yeah yeah yeah i'm sure you sometimes get that it's funny like sometimes i'm like yeah i run a podcast on ufos and people oh cool and they like move on and start talking about the weather or something i'm sure usually like maybe you occasionally tell people yeah i was you know recruited uh by the nsa to decode alien signals oh cool yeah well it's um what are you doing after this yeah like do you ever get that reaction oh definitely or it's like not even like they're not even capable of like holding it in their worldview i i um but i have the opposite effect really in that i mean for me anyway i don't really want to talk about it so because because it makes people feel like they're not able to i believe that so it's like i'll say well once i get to know somebody i won't say it initially but you know if they start we can know each other um i'll say yeah and i i um i don't know if you know but i wrote a book and and they go oh really what is it you know and i'll say i'll say the name of it i say it's on amazon you can you know above black yeah search for it and and um and then i wait for them to come back yeah to come back and if they just never mentioned it to me i'm like oh mention it again i'm like cool yeah i'm good yeah yeah yeah but you know if they have a genuine curiosity then i'm open to that too no it's a great filtering process yeah it's because just saying it in to people and springing it on them yeah i communicated with aliens they're going okay yeah yeah yeah time is it yeah yeah yeah yeah no i get and it's like you you also i mean are refreshingly non-historionic in your personality like it i don't doesn't feel like you have some like you know desire for attention you have the you have the certain segment and i'm sure you're familiar with it yes of this of this world that is very i mean i went to um conferences when i my first release a book i would be invited to all kinds of conferences yeah yeah ufo conferences and alien conferences and and holy moly the people that i would interface with yeah no i mean it was often it's extreme narcissism too it's like this solipsistic like i am a star seed i was sent here from arcturus and i am gonna enlighten everybody and it's like come on like do you really you really you're you're the messiah like this is great it's crazy i one conference i went to one time um it had a bunch of like uh i don't know alternative stuff going on um um experiences and things and one guy had the uh uh you know you're you're familiar with that oh yeah that stuff and he had an open wound like right in the middle of his forehead like it bleeding uh-huh and he would uncover it because we were at a convention of things that you know people came here to see so he would uncover it for people but he usually kept it covered i i don't even know what to do he did that to himself there's no way i'm i'm and then i think you know that's it's a story my story is in amongst all this i'm like chance do i have i mean well i think the stigmata guy you know is trying to compete against people like you who are just like i don't remember fully what happened but this is what i think happened and you know uh but you know the core details are very verifiable and uh well it's it's kind of why i kind of left the scene because i really i mean my story is my story yeah i read in the book and that's it i mean i'm not i'm not trying to you know become a star i'm not trying to get a become a celebrity at this i just put out my story for people to gel with whatever their stories are and yes it's a piece of the puzzle and that's all i'm good for i mean i don't need to just let me hide over here in the corner somewhere yeah and i get you know i'm not trying to become a star i'm not trying to become a celebrity i'm not trying to you know i get i get pinged on twitter all the time and and and it's i i don't know what to say yeah i'm like can i call you i'm like oh really can you ask my question ask question via text because i've talked to dozens of people and it's just i wrote it in the book yeah i i don't what else do you need to know so the the i love this this format here because we can talk about other things like stigmata yeah and put kind of put color to it and but for the most part i just don't need to talk about this anymore because there's plenty of other people talking about it it's in the book and well i'm honored you said yes to me why did you say yes to me well um you have a good charm over text very good charm and now in person the same so that's good um i just i wanted it to be i wanted to be a a clearinghouse so to speak for whatever i have to say vocally to people yeah about the book we're probably i would assume going to cover pretty much the entire thing yes and and so it's out there and at my age you know i want to get it at the point where i'm still you know smiling and thinking clearly and all that stuff um and and then i just want to let it let it go into the ether and and it's well researched well documented well talked you know and it doesn't really need to be um beaten yeah like a dead horse well i'm honored you said yes and i i do think we're gonna package something in a way that you know right right now it's uh it is these really structured we were talking about this earlier like kind of you know baby boomer kind of legacy media like so this happened and then this happened and then yeah well and it's a question and answer um yeah all the the the interviews that i've had up to this point were not podcasts before podcasts for sure yeah thing so it was very my last one was in florida and it was it was very nice very nice crew just like your crew very nice people but but it was very structured it was very bad question and then answer question and answer and and it was very heavily edited you know for time and all that so i just came across as very um you you couldn't see tribe yeah well that that begets that begets skepticism now like when you see the like the even the late night talk shows or like the you know the the prime time broadcast or whatever and it's this like very like done up you know manicured like like you know set thing where it's like the producers were in touch with the guests prior clearly i'm gonna go over this go over all these things like it's funny you should ask that well i was on vacation with my family or whatever it's like what are you it's so weird yeah and then you have honestly rogan's the biggest innovator oh gee oh gee him and like mark marin and stuff where it's just was fully just off the cuff and you get a sense for you're this voyeur looking into a conversation that's happening super organically and naturally yeah and you can suss out what's you know real and what's fake and yeah personalities have a lot to do with people's um um authenticity yes totally well i'm you know i'm i'm happy because i i watched all your interviews and i was like this guy i think seems very sane and you seem even more sane in person wait till you see my stigmata yeah yeah yeah exactly well you know something funny you were saying that you know this guy who's probably crazy and might be a hemophiliac if his wound was open this entire conference uh was uh you know saying that that he you know had a stigmata uh you know one of the first guys to receive uh stigmata was saint francis of assisi post jesus this is i think 13th century italy on mount laverne and the there's this religious studies professor named diana pasulka and she basically says if you look at the original translation of what happened to saint francis it was probably just an interaction with a ufo and he it received sort of electromagnetic you know damage look at you bringing stigmata back to my story that's what i'm saying what a host yeah you know we do we can't that's awesome yeah okay so we're midway through the story so we talked about project preserve destiny base one which was overseas somewhere there was a second base is that right so you you leave base one are you just like back into your normal air force electronics intelligence job or what do you yeah all of it's under the auspices of that okay um and then i get i get orders that base is actually i i close that base down um the base itself closed the entire base not just our aspect of okay so um i went to my next base and um same thing got you know read in as far as security clearances and for that place it took like i don't know 30 days for my security clearances to come in so i had no job it was like i was just free to do whatever i want to hang it out yeah just hanging out actually funny story i you're supposed to stay within the area you know because if they call you you have to get there when they tell you to get there and i took a chance and i drove just about to say the state but i um i drove to a friend's house it was about a uh four hour drive something like that four or five hours and they called me when i got there they called me in and said you need to be here at eight o'clock in the morning and i was like oh my gosh i gotta get back and it was a blizzard there was a blizzard the entire way home and i almost didn't make it back because of the blizzard and so um the the moral of that story is uh do what they tell you to do and stay in the local area when you have a 30-day uh hiatus anyway yes i so my clearances got um it's finally there and i got back to my job um for that one i went into my job and i was working my regular job and the introduction happened by the previous captain actually showing up at my job in on the floor where i was working and i was like oh hey cat what's up i didn't even know you were in the states i didn't i didn't know where he went from from where we were before and so you know we kind of had a nice friendly back and forth and so this is the story the guy pseudonymously named captain white or uh yeah whoever was the captain i i can't remember the name yeah the captain at the first base at the yeah okay it was my former contact he was he was relaying to me my next contact who was a captain and at station at that base and um and so they were together and so i got a an in-person introduction this time as opposed to over the phone or whatever and then he took me over to the computer screen and i had already i had already looked it up i'd already done the thing and i saw that it was there so he didn't really even have to tell me but um but i knew who my contact was now so that was the most important thing and same thing you go to this sort of workstation terminal is it in a van this time no no this was in a big room okay big air air conditioned room it was um uh this was the previous base was very small we had like 25 50 people something like that in our detachment very everybody knew one another it was very small knit or close knit um but the next base was a very big base very big uh detachment um uh we had a multi-service air force navy marines everybody was there on the same building um and so it was a big room uh but i wasn't as close to the people around me either so i had a little bit more space to do my thing and so i was able to do my thing and so i was able to do my thing and so i was able to do my thing and so i was able to do my thing um so nobody was hovering over me or right next to me or whatever and uh that took a couple maybe a couple months before i started receiving maybe not that long after i got briefed or into you know my security clearances and i started doing my job um i started to receive communications again prepare for communications like oh okay well here we go i'm at work let's go i started to um translate those and same thing you know just same variety as the first well no actually the communication has changed themselves but i'm just saying that the whole process i every once in a while i just can get a communication just like i did at the previous space and you're just sitting at your workstation sometimes i was yeah sometimes i was in the bathroom i mean i could be anywhere in the building you'd receive communications wherever yeah it but i was always in the building so you'd always be in the building and then you'd go to the workstation and then you'd type it whoever was overseeing this whole thing they knew where i was kind of location wise i was at work so they knew my shift so once you received some sort of message you'd go to the the monitor and you'd type in slash and you'd type in whatever messages you're seeing and 118 then the five digit code but the rest of the communication there was a lot of a lot of this one this marked a time when i became much more um um it became much more detailed the communications were much more detailed how so what were they like very like pictures images yeah these communications they were they were much more uh colorful um i think uh also you could get a an emote kind of a a sense of an emotion with the images so it wasn't uh you know like when you watch a movie and you see somebody crying or you see you can get emotion through visual and not just auditory not you know seeing i mean um hearing um but you know like words and stuff but you can see and these and these images that i saw they didn't have words to them i saw images but no words but i i felt emotion i could feel emotion with the image um not necessarily all the time but if it meant to have emotion then i could feel emotion um now whether that was conveyed with the message or whether i had emotion looking at the visual i don't i can't really you know suss that as far as which uh which was the generator of it the image or me but i did feel emotion with some of the images um so it was very much more colorful um do you remember any of the specifics of what was coming through oh like the example of the rocket that was one of the ones that i got is that was a visual um um because you also you also experienced a rocket failure in base one as well no i think that the visuals were at the base two two not base one that's so interesting that it's like rockets specifically because if you were that's what i remembered there's a lot of others sure like scenes at a grocery store like random things okay um i saw some troop movements before i saw like uh and um two and a half ton deuces or whatever they're called the the big car carrying trucks um marching you know troop marching um i saw um let's see some nature stuff like in the forest uh animals things like that did they feel like things of particular strategic importance or like were they just random well no i i really honestly believe the entire process or the the the entire time that i was doing this was all testing it wasn't it wasn't didn't have any functionality to it was this alien being that you're now speaking to the same as spock was it different no this was a different one um i only know that based on the the uh the quality of the communication because it i would i could say that if i were talking to you on the phone and and then you put you know somebody else on the phone like a lady i could tell that that was two people sure even another guy i could tell those two people and that in the same way that this communication you can you can definitely tell that the communication is different it has a different flavor a different um substance to it like the tapestry analogy that i meant it's a different type of tapestry so i think i ever i would assume when you're when i'm communicating with them i have a certain tapestry that they're tapping into did you have a nickname for this alien yes i did what was that um well i started on the the star trek theme so i just continued it with bones and and i only said bones because i thought it was just a funny arrow i used that because it was funny but there was no really correlation with the first one there was a correlation because he was logical and so i was like oh that's cool let's let's name him spock but the second one was just a continuation of the the naming did you ever try to ask bones or spock personal questions like where do you come well yeah um for bones i became more adept at doing that because i had just discovered this new plane with with uh um with spock but then i left soon after we shut down that that communications there because the base base was closing and the c-van was being uh closed up and you know um packed up and all that so um i wasn't able to do anymore it was with spock but bones i continued that theme because i almost in almost immediately i tried that new plane that i was telling you about the the closer one and he was also fairly um i wouldn't say shocked but he was inquisitive about like really you could do that that's interesting and and so we used that or i used it to and i don't think i needed to looking back at it i could have just used the regular um tapestry or plane or whatever you want to call it um but i kind of associated this in my mind i associated that other one the closer one with a more informal communication so that's what i would always use for my questions and so i had questions for bones and i think that a lot of the ones that we went over already are the ones that came from bones but well you you also i think asked both bones and i think that a lot of the ones that and spock is it okay that we're communicating like this from the perspective of this national security program that you're involved with and i think they both said the same thing is that right what did they both say they they said it it's there's no i can't remember the exact um but he basically said that there's no problem i mean it's not a big deal yeah yeah it's communicating is communicating and i think they both almost express um they're like we don't quite know what the um you know exact protocols are of your like human program yeah so it's cool with us like it doesn't matter you know from our perspective it seemed like they were kind of like uh uh on the same track as i was like um they're just being doing what they're being told to right right you know kind of like maybe they have officers on the alien side and they're like they have need to know and they don't really have they have a limited information set and they're just changing now they did they did um shut down communications a lot when i when i tried to ask things that they didn't want to answer yeah they would just shut down um but but i didn't get the sense that there was a certain way that things needed to happen they were i think they were more interested in the testing of my ability to communicate yeah then they were necessarily the content now of course i i'm sure they had off limit types of subjects that they couldn't talk about but um for the most part when when i did ask a question they would give a some sort of an answer at least or shut down yeah or they'd seem like kind of coy and like you know give you some high level like riddle or something well i don't think they tried to riddle it's just that my feeble brain sure it became a riddle because of my feeble brain well it's like if you live in some timeless dimension or something you're trying to describe that to somebody like the words literally will fail on you as well so what did bones say about religion when you asked uh well i got the impression that we were um he mentioned that the that we are part of the same creation in other words we're part of the same fabric of existence as the aliens yeah okay yeah we're all we're all part of it um he didn't necessarily say they have a soul but he said that that um he he implied we have a soul he said that there are two until there are two creations intelligent and non-intelligent and like plants were part of the non-intelligent and we and them were part of the intelligent creation and if you have intelligence then you have what i interpreted when when i heard it was a soul now he might have meant something else but this internal agency or internal knowing that i think that that's probably a better way of knowing it and i think i ascribe because at the time i was religious i i had a religious belief so to speak um so i i think i pushed soul into that that round hole yeah um now that i look back on it it didn't necessarily mean soul but it meant a sort of a a self-agency a self-awareness did you ever ask any questions about yourself like how was i genetically manipulated or why or okay i um if i did i don't remember it because i i didn't get an answer i don't think because i i don't remember anything about it i don't remember anything about it i don't remember anything about that did you ever ask them how long they've been visiting humanity yes um i i tried to address that several times um my impression was that they've been here for a very long time um and that they've they've intersected with humanity at different times and he did mention also that um it became much more difficult once our civilization had advanced because it was the the levels of communication between civilizations and the human civilization and the human civilization and the it was harder to keep um their um autonomy or their their distance so to speak from when they wanted the distance it was harder to do that when other societies were talking about each other this was my impression they didn't exactly say it that way but that's what i i got the impression of did they talk about any sort of interbreeding between humans and aliens i got the impression that they had interbreeded before um experimentally i i'm not that doesn't necessarily mean that it was still or that we still have the results of that so to speak on earth but um he did he did mention that um they had experimented with that in the past did you ask are you the only alien race are there others yeah um thank you for reminding me of that uh yes um he said there were a lot like um i got the impression that it was a silly question like like of course there's there's more speed this entire universe and you think we're the only two yeah so i got that impression did you ask if they have genders you know and their race or their lifespans were um they do have female and male they have a different um they don't they don't procreate exactly like we do um but they do have a dual a dual sex type of um situation and um and yes they he said they do eliminate waste um and i i sensed a little bit of a humor with that yeah which was funny because here's two different species and you talk about waste and you get humor yeah in both cases which is that's fascinating yeah and but i never felt i never felt a sense of like um doubled over laughing type of yeah but i could sense that it was a a lighter topic like uh oh interesting yeah um when you when you talk about like missiles or you know you get an imagery of missiles or something like that it has a it has a a certain um framework or emotion to it and then when you talk about stuff like that it has a different framework or emotion to it so yeah i sense humor it's funny i just interviewed this uh whistleblower named charles hall who claimed to live with paul white aliens while stationed at area 51 for two and a half years and he claims that they lived with them lived with wow yeah and he yeah like like interactions across you know you know days at a time over in a two and a half year period where he interacts with family groups you know the some of the kids and the father and the and he has names for them he calls one of them a good friend that's what he calls one the teacher he calls one um something hairy yeah he has it's wild um anybody he says that the ufos have bathrooms on them in the back of that craft was a restroom in the back of all the all those people are extra trail are at real physical biological entities they all have to eat and they all have to eat and they all have to eat and they all have to breathe air drink water and they all have to periodically go to the restroom so i don't know um well i mean it stands to reason i mean we're organisms and sure organisms have to eliminate yeah speaking of ufos did you ask about their mode of travel at all yeah the um it had to do with electromagnetic energy and and time um i think the i can't even remember what it's called now the where that there's a scientist that came up with this concept of of um um pulling the ship as opposed to pushing the ship yeah sure the al-kubi area yeah yeah yeah that's it yeah over the years after my communication i i came to think that that was a very very close proximity to what you're surfing kind of a space time way yeah you you create a void in front of you and you fall into that void and you keep creating the void yes bob lazar also says similar stuff to that i really think that was what he was with what they were trying to i mean they never really got into details but they used um uh a manipulation of electromagnetic energy probably something that we don't really understand at this point did they have anything to say about the nature of human beings or what we are he always referred to us as water vessels or water beings water humans um there was always a water aspect of it and i think it's because they were probably not as they aren't made up as as of as much water as we are that's what i gather i guess we are like 80 percent water yeah yeah water's conductive and yeah so it was just an interesting i mean it wasn't something that we focused on it was just in in reference he would say that's that's how he referred to as humans water water beings it's fascinating did you get into project preserve destiny and whether it was uh you didn't ask them any questions well i did but i never really got any answers on any of that did you ask whether it was international or just well yeah we did um he did say that it was more than one country okay yeah that that was um maybe not necessarily involved with ppd but that but that was involved with their involvement with earth so to speak did you receive any messages about alien abductions or alien activity well that was okay so towards the end of my my stay with this project i started to receive stuff that indicated that it was um uh abductions and that's where i started to feel um like an accessory you know accessory to the crime so to speak and who knows whether that was a crime or not i mean i don't know i don't know in retrospect i don't know whether they were abducting for humanitarian reasons who knows you know maybe maybe upgrade our conscience yeah yeah yeah or increase our ability to um know about the body and and and work with it and heal it and there could be so many different reasons why but why surreptitiously why not tell the the public about what's going on so at the time and of course i was going through a stage of my life too also where i didn't want to be isolated anymore yeah i was in a prime age where you know you're dating and how old were you um when i got out i was uh around that time i was uh 30 yeah around 30 it's definitely the prime of your life yeah well i believe you asked the first captain that briefed you on everything at the nsa complex why is this whole thing being kept secret and he talked about economic destabilization and things like that but i think you know i think he was parodying what he was told i i don't think he i don't think he had any agency in that answer yeah felt like a can yeah and and it's the same answer that everybody has that the reason why we're not being told anything is because religion will you know be upset i think that's bullshit i mean i think we live in a pretty in effect atheist materialist world or whatever well there would be a certain faction of people that would blow their mind if if if it actually came out sure truth wise i think it would reinforce religion in many ways but that's will create maybe others who knows but yeah it would be it would definitely do a be a shock to the system for sure nothing else absolutely yeah yeah but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done i mean yeah but but anyway i think his what he was saying to me was just it was it was just pat answer did you get like kind of a map of what was going on alien abduction wise or see any visual or anything um so the the the reason why i thought it was abductions is because of the the the um fields so to speak that i was reporting you know the information um they would report like uh potentiality for recall and and um pain levels and and um just different um things that would i would have to report a number in back of so that indicated that it was some sort of it could be bad or good based on the numbers so a pain level could be good or bad so so it's almost like you were reporting on abductions like somebody's pain level after having experienced an abduction exactly that's fascinating and so you were like the the like readout debrief guy or whatever without even maybe knowing it sort of unwittingly yeah and whoa and this is up until that point i had thought or i had assumed that the information that i was conveying was all training it was all just stuff you know that was um testing my ability to communicate and then when the that started it shifted my head like well we're not testing this anymore i mean obviously i can i can communicate a few numbers and and a word so you're you're actually using me as an operational asset to communicate stuff and why you would need to do that i that was another thing is but but i don't want to be i don't want to be um it's one thing to train me to do something or you know to in a training environment and nobody's getting hurt or you know nothing's nothing nefarious um other than the fact that you're keeping this from the world but other than that set that aside um but now i i see that i am part of something that may maybe nefarious now, maybe not, but maybe. And then, so I brought that up to my, my captain and he didn't give me satisfactory answers. He said, look, I I'm just your communicator here. I'm just your contact. I'm, I'm not, I'm not in a position to, um, say it's okay, Dan, you know, you know, no, that's not happening. I don't know. I don't even know what you're communicating. So how am I, I don't know what to do here. So, and then when I got to the point where I said, I want to get out, that's when he became an important catalyst for my getting out. Because he said, um, I honestly don't think you're going to be able to get out. Like even when your enlistment is up, you're going to have to stay in. So, but was that the thing that gave you moral qualms about what you do? I mean, it is fascinating. You were kind of like reporting on abductions for the aliens, maybe like they were probably, you know, getting, receiving signals from you about or reports from where the abductions were occurring. And then simultaneously, presumably you have some gray human faction of, you know, the proverbial deep state or whatever military industrial complex coordinating on where the alien abductions are occurring, levels of pain people are feeling. That's, that's amazing. Yeah. And, and I, I honestly could not, I couldn't be a part of it. I, I, I mean, I felt morally, um, um, compromised because I didn't have any choice. There was no agency in this, you know? So it's one thing it's like, um, you know, when you're told to go out and kill an enemy, well, you have agency. You can say, no, I'm not going to do that. And you can court martial me. You can do whatever you need to do, but I'm not going to do that. Well, I didn't have that other than what I did was try to get out. I didn't have that option. I didn't have anybody to say, no, stop communicating with me. I don't want to do that. And I actually did in my communications. I tried to ask about it and say, are these abductions? And I would never get an answer. It was like the stonewalling. And that's what led me to get all angry about it. It's so interesting too, because in UFO alien lore, you have around 19, 54 is this like really important point where I get, this is again, mythology. I don't have a ton of corroboration for this other than I think the fact that Eisenhower was actually in Palm Springs at the time claimed to have a dentist appointment. And then the, the, uh, sort of story is that that was cover for a meeting he had at Edwards air force base. And it was a meeting with aliens where he basically agreed, you know, for basically like favor and military matters, uh, to, uh, give up part of the, you know, American population for medical testing, you know, when it came to the alien presence. And so that really does sound like what you're talking about, maybe outside of the dates being, you know, early 1960s versus. Yeah. Well, I, I often wondered, well, how did they, how did they get this information to people that needed to get it before, before the ICs were doing this? I was doing at least so I, but, but, um, it may be, it may have been a test, you know, to test my, um, resolve to, to, you know, they kind of kind of poke on the little bit of, is he going to, is he going to report anything that we tell him? Yeah. You know, dead, dead numbers. Is he going to report stuff that is immorally just way immoral? Is he going to have problems with anything? Yeah. And I, I had a, I evidently had a problem. Have you ever been abducted by an alien? I had never been abducted. I mean, to my knowledge anyway. Fair knowledge. Yeah. You've never found an implant or anything sort of bizarre like that? No, I have not. Have you had synchronicities in your life that you feel like led to your involvement in Project Preserve Destiny? Um, well, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to have some sort of concrete evidence, but I remember when I was in, in second grade, I was playing on a garage roof and we were, there was a walnut tree next to the roof and we were leaning out on the branches and, um, one of the branches snapped and I fell and I fell like 25 feet. It was really, really high. And I fell on my back, directly on my back. And I remember feeling a sense of warmth. I, I did, I did feel the impact, but I don't, I don't think I felt it as much as you would normally. That would be a severely debilitating fall. Yeah. And I, and I, it made me cry and I got up, but I felt this warmth over me. And I, I, I thought that maybe I was bleeding or, you know, the, the trauma of the, I mean, you don't think of, you don't think of a lot of things when you're second grade, but, but in my memory, I did not hit that ground the way I should have hit it. Given it was 25 feet up. And who knows? I mean, there, there could have been some sort of, um, um, watching over, so to speak of, of my personhood. Um, and of course the SR-71 pilot, he really encouraged me to go in the Air Force. And, um, um, I have this, uh, in my, the update in 2008 or something like that, I have this ability to hear a certain, and it's not necessarily hearing, but it's through my ear. It's like a wave that comes through my, my head and it's sensed in my eardrum. And, and I think I've correlated it to seismic activity. I think I'm highly sensitive to seismic activity. Interesting. And I correlated it before I got into the program. Do you sense earthquakes? Well, I can't sense an earthquake itself, but I can sense, I think what is happening to a precursor of an earthquake or maybe after an earthquake. You have like premonitions. Well, it's not, you know, not a premonition. It's because premonition is more of a idea. This is a, an actual physical thing that happens. And, and it's like, um, I don't know if anybody else has this ability, but when, like when a electronic item comes on or TV, or, um, anything that's really highly electronic, I can, I can sense when it's come on. You can. Yeah. Whoa. And like, if, if some, if I'm in the, in a different room and somebody has the TV down, the TV screen down, um, I can sense when it's come on. So you're hypersensitive to electromagnetism. Oh, definitely. So interesting. So the, I think I've correlated the, the earthquake thing and it's not a one-to-one correlation. It's very synchronous and ethereal, you know, because sometimes I'll send stuff and sometimes I won't. Well, I think you put some examples in your book around your blog where you predict accurately certain earthquakes based on sensations. And, and the only reason I did it, I, I had a blog, um, back in the early 2000s and I put on there that I don't usually say stuff because my blog was about entrepreneurial stuff and things like that. But I, I did put in there, I said, I don't usually bring this topic into my blog. But I really have to put this somewhere because I need it, uh, to be logged. And I said, I'm really, I have this way or thing in my ear where I can sense electromagnetic energy or what I think is electromagnetic energy. And so I'm, I woke up that I, I don't know if I woke up, but I had, I had lost ear hearing in one of my ears for like three days. It was really, really intense. This, because usually I just feel it going through my head. There's a really minor time of like maybe five seconds that I can't hear. And then it goes away. But this one, I was like deaf in one ear for like three days. It was ridiculous. I couldn't, I didn't know what was going on, but then I correlated, I was like, well, there's gotta be some, there's gotta be some correlation to something earthquake wise. So I put in my blog, I said, now I'm thinking, this might be within the next couple of weeks. It could be in a couple of months, but it's, it's impending. This, this, it's gotta be some seismic activity. So, um, there was like two 7.5 earthquakes back to back in Japan. And some people commented on my blog saying, Oh, is that it? You know? And, and it was only like a week or so after my thing. And I was like, you know, I guess it could be, but I don't think it is. I think there's something way bigger than that. I think, this is not cause, cause I've, I've gone through 7.5 earthquakes around the world, you know, before I never had that happen. So I was like, no, I think it's something else. So that was in September of 03, I believe it was. And in December is when the, the, um, the Indonesian earthquake happened and, you know, 250,000 people died of weather waves and all that stuff. And well, no, it was four. It was, it was, because I updated my book and 2006 and i updated it with that information so anyway okay um but it was it was huge yeah whether that was just coincidence and and i got that sensation you know that that amount of time before the earthquake who knows and i haven't got anything like that since and there's been really really big earthquakes okay now i i will get i will get it like periodically like three times and usually is there an earthquake after you get it i would i would say um a lot of the times but not all the time which is reason why i'm so i'm so unclear on it because so if it were a one-to-one type of thing then i'd be like yeah that's definitely it well it's fascinating if you could map out the correlation more i i i think maybe the more interesting thing is most people can't sense when a tv is turned on and they're not seeing it and they're not room next to them i mean that's really unique yeah it's it's um i can definitely sense and and it actually has a lot to do well the the modern tvs yeah not so much but the tube tvs yeah those are the ones that i could really do you think if if somebody did a study on you and you were like in a faraday cage or like in a not even faraday cage because that will block out yeah magnetic signals so maybe that's a bit say somebody did an experiment on you i would love to another room next door they shared a wall you know they have an old tv in that room and they're turning on the tv do you think you'd be able to i honestly i think i could wow i i mean i've never done it before but and this is very anecdotal because i i could i i sensed it when i when i was a kid i would always know when the tv was on because when my dad would because we had an older tv and and the sound wouldn't come on with it it would it would be one of those tube tvs you know the big tubes in the back it was big magnavox and um but i i could be in a different room and i would know that when the tv came on because the sound wouldn't come up initially it would just tv would come on and warm up very old and so yeah i just i i have a very i'm very sensitive to things like that i'm also sensitive to it's very interesting um and this is a fairly new correlation although i've always had with the advent of a lot of videos being shared of people hurting themselves when somebody when i when i watch a video of like you know these these videos where you'll have a whole montage of people falling and and crashing into a wall yeah yeah just crashing their bike and you know all these things falling on their porch it's like rob deer deck show or whatever i've like yeah i can't watch those because when i when when the impact yeah happens i feel it in my body my entire body does a shot when when i look at that and and it's that i think it has to do with the empathic yeah nature of me seeing a visual like that it i i honestly cannot i mean i'll watch a couple of them and then i'll go no i can't do that so you're you're hypersensitive very very sensitive very sensitive to smell yeah hearing all my all my senses are very very very heightened like so fast it drives it drives my girlfriend crazy i can smell somebody smoking in the car in front of me on the highway whoa i mean so interesting i mean a lot of people can smell smoke too but but they can it's very very very very heightened well it's you know there are different forms of sensing and we obviously have the the five senses but you know that like the platypus can sense electric fields for example you have lots of examples like that you know so it's not impossible yeah or it's like why you know maybe there's genetic mutations and maybe you were literally genetically manipulated by aliens in the womb yeah to be able to sense certain things it could have ancillary crossovers in other in other areas of the brain well that would make sense yeah that it wouldn't be an isolated thing yeah yeah babies also have you know they're hypersensitive they also have synesthesia up until six months and there's a space psychologist who works with a lot of astronauts and she calls herself a cognitive engineer her name is dr ea whiteley and she's trying to train babies to retain their synesthesia for longer because she thinks that comports with alien communication though it's it's really interesting very interesting yeah your job is really interesting i love it it's so fun man it's so interesting i mean i get to talk to people like you and learn about all this crazy stuff it's so cool yeah um has anything well actually we should talk about like the increased sort of bitterness towards this you're in the prime of your life you're 30 years old you know that you have all this opportunity cost you're probably have no romantic life your social life is probably kind of shot and then you talk to your captain about wanting out and what does he say and how yeah he said he he suggested he didn't say it like you know you will not but he said i don't honestly given your position i don't think they're going to allow you to get out period never mind the fact you want to get out now i had about two or three years left on my enlistment and i decided to just make an end run and and try to get out um because i just didn't want to be a part of it anymore and and i think if they had if i had become more embraced part of a community you know part of a mission yeah those are different you you're your human mind approaches that yeah if you're just isolated and in a box and nobody wants to talk to you and you're just a tool yep it it's harder it's harder to keep that that motivation and that the the superman um the superman uh uh aspect of this you know because when you're first told this you think oh i'm i'm a little bit of a superhero yeah yeah i'm really special and all that that only goes so far and so long and and then you start to that starts to become no longer a novelty it's just it's a drudgery and then when i get this information about the about the um abductions that it just took on a new level and i just didn't want to be a part of it anymore so how'd you get out at the time the don't ask don't tell policy was in place and um and i i was bisexual at the time and uh less so now but at the time i was and so i admitted i said i wrote a letter to my commander and i said and this was the the commander that was not in charge of me from the project perspective um project preserved destiny it was my just my regular chain of command my black and and then unclassified level uh that chain of command got a letter and i said i'm being homosexuality and whatever you want to do with that but i don't want to be i don't want to be in in a conflict with the policy of you know no homosexuals in the military and so so i'll let you know i want to be honest and then that's the paperwork started and discharge and the whole nine yards wow so the chain of command was crucial there because if if the chain of command for project preserved destiny was in place i would have been in the military and i would have been had their way and they had final say on that then i would not have gotten out they would have just tossed the letter and and but i i purposely went through another chain of command who did not have the option of doing something like that were you relieved on the other side of this or oh yeah i definitely i i was way happier that i didn't have to participate in that anymore um do i have regrets yeah of course i mean i i i regret not being able to continue serving my time because i'm kind of a you know i i'm a patriotic guy and i love my country and and i i felt that was a little bit of a um a stab in the back of the country but on the other flip side of that they were stabbing me in the back too oh yeah or at least a certain faction of the of my chain of command so it was it was something that i had to tussle with mentally but well you served and they can't hold you captive yeah yeah yeah exactly so and i wasn't going to be held captive that's for sure and an alien intuitive communication program nonetheless you know it's not a garden variety like you know just being deployed um dan did you experience any backlash after telling the story i mean it's kind of a bombshell claim the nsa is notorious for knowing everything about everybody per ed snowden's revelations yeah that's true um you know i do have one story um this was about maybe two years after the book came out something like that maybe a little less and i was working in an office and uh howard stern show called okay on my cell phone and um they the producer one of the producers was just trying to find a story to you know bring on the the show and so he was asking me some questions and and so i got off the phone and hung up the phone and i i was like wow howard stern that's an interesting interesting little venue for talking about aliens okay and then not i'd say maybe a minute went by and i got another call on my cell phone and and the person on the other end of the line said drop the story don't go on howard stern and stop talking about it no way and then just hung up no way it was only about a minute after the the call and he didn't go on howard stern no and and well they never called back howard stern never called back so maybe they got the same call i don't know i don't know whether it was just wasn't worth it for them to do it or they got a call or i don't know but you got a call from a random number that wasn't in your phone well this was but phone probably didn't even have the number you weren't even saving numbers at that no no no no that's wild and what did it sound threatening no it just it just sounded very direct to the point and i think it was just a they've been monitoring the situation with my story and and they know that if if they put attention to it the government says you know they arrest me let's say they arrest me and put me up on charges um they're validating the story right so it it's almost like it's better to not just leave him alone and be among you know one amongst the stigmata and the alien nobody knows how to differentiate exactly that's the trouble i have with some of these things it's like and especially on youtube sometimes it's like a it always has this quacky veneer it's self-concealing it's self-stigmatizing and people don't have the discernment they bucket it in with the stigmata stuff and i'm like no i think this is kind of real like this this is like a very different you know yeah variety that's the problem with the whole the whole topic yeah yeah because you don't know what to what to take serious and what to not take you really don't do you think that the nsa or powers that be know that this interview is happening it obviously hasn't been released do you think somebody's tracking us doing this i think i've been off the grid so long that i probably have not i don't have an asian attached to your story i don't think but slip through the cracks who knows who knows yeah yeah well to anybody listening i'll let you know if i get a call okay i'll do the same yeah yeah hopefully we neither of us get dropped the story right after this took this whole trip has anything you know after having left this program for many years now you're out for you know three decades i imagine you go to these ufo conferences you've written your book and people come out of the woodwork and so have you met anybody who said i was also a part of project preserved destiny or anything like that i've i've i've had people mentioned to me that they met somebody who confirmed that it existed but nobody that was actually in the program no i haven't i have not had anybody contact me do you know uh have you heard of this guy named noah i could be pronouncing his last name incorrectly radek noah radek well how do you spell the last name h-r-a-d-e-k oh no he put out a freedom of information act around project preserved destiny probably inspired by your story to the air force and wanted to know if it was real and the air force uh said that's an nsa project forwarded it to the nsa and then the nsa said we can't comment on the existence or non-existence of such a project standard answer standard answer if you're admitting that it exists basically the modern hermeneutic reading on that is this is a real project i want to emphasize just how important this point of discussion is while at first the air force denied the existence of project preserved destiny to this independent researcher noah radek they followed up later saying this and i quote good afternoon this letter is in final response to your 27th of july 2023 freedom of information act request for requesting information on project preserved destiny we apologize in the delay in responding after a careful review of your request we have determined that the information you are seeking falls under the purview of the nsa therefore our office has referred your request to the nsa for their processing and direct response to you why would the air force tell radek that this program fell under the purview of the nsa if the program didn't exist and it's remarkable that his request to begin with didn't even mention dan sherman it independently corroborates that project preserved destiny existed under the nsa then not only could the nsa not confirm or deny the existence of project preserved destiny they cited executive order 13526 around projects classified in the interest of national defense to quote their exact response this agency has determined that the fact of the existence or non-existence of the material you request is a currently and properly classified matter in accordance with executive order 13526 thus your request is denied so yes on the one hand the nsa is caveating their entire response with the existence or non-existence of project preserved destiny they're basically giving themselves an out on the program even existing but why would the non-existence of project preserved destiny cause the nsa to invoke executive order 13526 which only involves classified programs dealing with national defense why would they cite this specific executive order in response to a foyer request around project preserved destiny to me the air force rerouting the foyer request to the nsa actually feels like more of a smoking gun on the program's existence the nsa's response could be interpreted as a standard runaround or non-answer but i'll let my hardcore researcher friends weigh in here perhaps what's even harder to argue with than the language of the government is this certificate granted to sherman by the nsa for satisfactory completion of the ea 280 intermediate electronics intelligence collection and analysis course again this was for the daytime course sherman attended at the nsa complex doing normal electronics intelligence training not his very classified project preserved destiny work he would do at night but it really helped substantiate his presence with the nsa when he claimed to be working with them a fantastic researcher named richard geldreich did even more digging on dan sherman with an ancestry.com search the results showed that sherman likely in fact lived in omaha nebraska between 1993 and 1994 around 15 to 20 minutes from off at air force base in nebraska where he said he was stationed could this be project preserved destiny base 2 it certainly fits his description and so i don't know if you know that that happened um it sounds familiar it sounds like somebody told maybe you told me in in some of the communications we've had i've heard some something i don't think i did no i heard somebody say something about it somewhere you know when you're when you're in my position you hear so many people talk about so many different things and it's it just it becomes just a conglomeration of of information that just goes through my head and i and it doesn't help that my personal interests don't really lie in this area yeah no no i think that's cool though it's like probably good it's also to me it's a good signal that you reacted the way you did just now um because i think if somebody were like cared a lot about like you know arguing for his case he'd be like they'd have like a kind of like an encyclopedic like canon of like corroborating evidence and you're like yeah cool like i know what i went through so it doesn't really matter but i think it's a good signal that you're like i think that's a big deal as a researcher and you're like whatever it's like i had a i had more of an interest in aliens before i knew they were alien really than i do now why i think it's the mystery of it the mystery is what people are attracted to right um i mean obviously you know we want to know the truth yeah but um but i know the truth so you feel like you've gotten confirmation yeah so my mystery the kind of the mystery uh the um the mystery aspect of it has vanished have you tried to develop your communications and speak oh i've tried before and after leaving yeah preserved destiny have you have you been successful nothing nothing's there it's interesting it's like it was closed off have you tried to recreate any of the training with the tones or anything like that or i i think they used um some sort of equipment that was designed for that that was sort of the special proprietary thing that it's so interesting yeah i also think of the nsa's involvement with this stuff the modern you know the the kind of ufo research group that is you know very in the know right now as far as the the official like the modern project blue book if you will um it's called harrow the all domain anomalies resolution office okay and the current uh head of that it was a former nsa director i don't think he was like the director but he was like a director level or whatever Um, so I find that interesting. It's John Kozlowski. So I find that interesting as well it's like why would you put that guy you know maybe there is some nsa overlap because there aren't too many stories connected with the nsa and the alien stuff but you would assume you know if the alien stuff is real which obviously i believe it is the nsa has to have a lot of entanglement with it yeah um you know there's so many different connections because i was assigned to um well let's just say in general yeah i was assigned to the space command and and during some of my tenure in the air force and and uh they have they have many connections to so nsa has many connections to many different um bands yeah okay they're not just nsa and that's it you know they have they have connections everywhere Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I won't ask more. We brushed up against classified stuff. There's a guy named Scott Andrews. Have you heard that name? He, when he was 36 years, he has, I guess, a biography coming out this or next year. That's very anticipated. When he was 36 years old, he started experiencing headaches and migraines and kind of destabilizing dizziness, some kind of Havana syndrome style effects. Yeah. And he said that his father, he started to, you know, wonder why he was feeling like this. Like it was almost like his identity was breaking down. And then he approached his father who had a file on him. And he started to realize that as a as a child, I think in like, you know, elementary and middle school, he was taken out of class and he was taken to Space Command to the Air Force Base with the Space Command Center. And was. Doing kind of intuitive communications with aliens. So it definitely sort of comports with your with your story. What's his name again? Scott Andrews. And did he, how did you find out about this? It's all over Twitter. Oh, okay. Yeah. And did he write a book or did he just reveal a story? I think he's written a book and I think it's coming out at some point in the next year or so. Interesting. Yeah. How old is he? I don't know how old he is now. So, yeah, I mean, I think that might even be a pseudonym. I don't know. I hope he goes. It's more public, but yeah, it's very anticipated like this story. It could be an offshoot of what I went through. Maybe. Another, you know, because they I'm I'm pretty sure that PVD has been shut down. Okay. In its current or what I saw in current form. Yeah. And and perhaps gone on to other things because, you know, things don't happen. They don't last forever. Sure. They get they morph into something else. Sure. And then that morphs. Into something else. Well, do you ever think you're part of like a reserve group where you'll get called back into? Yeah. Well, if the if the cataclysmic thing ever happens, I would assume that that would be the case. So this is one of the most fascinating things about your whole story is just recently this year in Les Spresso, some Italian like weekly. There came out a story that references Project Preserved Estates. And it comes out of nowhere. And this could be chalked up to some sort of weird like amalgamation of UFO lore, like your story being, you know, an important one. But it goes into a level of detail that you like you don't go into. So it's like, what do the authors of this periodical know about this project? They say this, and this is a translation. There are not only duties in Donald Trump's new agenda behind the scenes in Washington. There's a much darker dossier. The one on UFOs. And according to confidential sources, something very concrete is already moving. It's called Project Preserved Destiny. And it's much more than just a study program of so-called UAPs, Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena. Behind this name, evocative and disturbing hides an institutional waltz round that risks redrawing the balance between the Pentagon and the White House. And then it goes on to describe that project as Project Preserved Destiny. And it's like. Like, how does this Italian weekly know about your project? That is very interesting. This is maybe the strangest modern curveball in Sherman's whole story. In July of 2025, an Italian outlet called Le Espresso published an article which discusses Project Preserved Destiny and Trump's White House's involvement with it. This magazine is kind of like The Atlantic or Rolling Stone's dramatic Italian cousin. It has a long history of serious political journalism. But it's not shy about flirting with speculation and theatrical flair. It's a serious outlet, but we're not talking about The Economist here. Still, when they drop a story about Trump taking control of black budget alien programs, you don't dismiss it as trashy tabloid nonsense. The article claims that Project Preserved Destiny is not only real, but that Trump's inner circle has been in closed door meetings with Pentagon officials and they've decided to move certain special access programs or SAPs out of Pentagon. to the White House. Projects like Project Preserved Destiny. According to the article's anonymous sources, Trump sees the UFO issue as a kind of wild card, a chance to brand himself as the president who finally tells Americans the truth about aliens, an opportunity I personally think he shouldn't pass up. The article goes on to describe six levels of secrecy programs within programs, exactly what Sherman describes in his book, a black budget cover mission. Deeply compartmentalized, insulated from oversight by other branches of government, but above it, a gray program core, above black, dealing with the alien issue. If you want to dive deeper into this mysterious Trump connection and what Project Preserved Destiny might actually mean for UFO disclosure, check out our sub stack, American Alchemy Magazine. I'm linking it in the description below. But now back to this crazy interview. It's fascinating. I will say that out of all the presidents that have been read into, you know, black projects and gray projects. Yeah. I would imagine this is the one that would upend the apple cart as much as he possibly could. Sure. And it might also be why he has not been read into it, too. I think there are certain presidents that the status quo within the government control centers. That have decided not to read in a certain president. Yeah. And then other ones they have. I don't know what the criteria of that would be. Well, you would assume somebody like a George H.W. Bush, who is director of the CIA, would be like of a different variety maybe than Jimmy Carter. But they also might do it in just in certain times when they actually need to do it. Sure. If they don't need to do it, then they don't do it. So who knows? Yeah. I mean, who knows how it segues with the White House. Is the first Project Preserve Destiny base that you were at San Vito, Normani, in southern Italy? That is one of the bases that I was stationed at. Okay. Well, thank you for saying that. I figured that was the one that was shut down. So we did a little searching from the images that you, you know. There haven't been any other bases that have been shut down that I was at? There might have been, but the overseas part. Come on, researcher. Where's the researcher? You talk about the white. The white, golden, actually talk about an elephant cage, which is one of these large, you know, antennas. And that exists there. And talk about it being 50 people and it was a smaller base. And so we figured it out. All right. Here's where things get interesting. After reading Dan's book, Above Black, I kept thinking about that elephant cage at the first base Dan was stationed at for Project Preserve Destiny. The so-called elephant cage was basically just a large structure which surrounded a huge antenna. Or receiver. And we now know this base was San Vito de Normani Air Station in Italy. In fact, here's a photo of it in his book, Above Black. I did some research and it turns out this massive antenna was designed to pick up high frequency waves. Offit Base in Nebraska also has high frequency wave antennas and low frequency wave antennas. Were these antennas and the signals they received somehow very important for the signals that Dan himself was trying to get? Trying to decode for the NSA. Were these satellites somehow aiding in his telepathic downloads? Did noise cancellation technologies, possibly working with the NSA in Maryland, provide some much needed technological assistance in filtering out the non-alien frequencies from these transmissions? Who knows? But we do know that the CIA was experimenting as early as the 60s under Dr. Andrei Puharich with extra low or ultra low or sometimes called very low frequencies. For telepathic alien communication. Puharich's work sort of met a tragic dead end. He was doing all sorts of crazy shit. In fact, he had a whole team of intuitive communicators he called the Space Kids who would constantly channel aliens. Puharich's work came to a standstill, but many have speculated that it was developed and is still ongoing today. So who knows? The entire electromagnetic wave spectrum is very, very large. Is there some slice of it that involves? Alien signals, alien signals being received on these bases that Dan Sherman was then able to parse and download with his mind. And then what I, you know, I did this Italian periodical writing. about project preserve destiny there has to be some sort of connection there there is that's very interesting i mean it's years apart but yeah do you think the vatican knows about this project i don't know i don't know if they would have a need to know about the project yeah yeah i don't know what do you uh hope for the rest of your life what what do you what do you are you just do you just want to have like a normal life from here and you know well i mean i i hope for the country that or the world really that we find um we find the truth yeah whatever that is and god knows you know today's society the truth is whatever is being fed to you at that moment sure we we don't know what the truth is um but it is my hope that we find out the actual truth behind our involvement with alien species in this in this world in our world history um but i honestly don't think it'll ever happen yeah i honestly do not i mean the whole truth we may get we may get certain things that come out like this you know the the nasa just recently announced that they found some sort of life on mars amazing yeah and or or evidence of previous life yes and and even that is amazing yeah you know so but it's things like that that we might find or we might find that aliens have been here a long time ago but are no longer with us you know we may find these little things well nasa was also just determined to be a spy agency by trump and so you have to think with some of these little announcements like there was already a meteor meteorite in the 90s that you know clinton came out with alh 84001 that had polycyclic cyclic hydrocarbons on it or whatever and so there there's already this belief and we know that mars had a biosphere and so if there are projects that exist like yours in the at the nasa where you're systematically communicating with aliens this has to be some sort of slow drip disclosure like oh we found a little thing with some organic compounds on it or whatever you know that has to be coordinated yeah well my that's just my hope um and i i'm after this podcast i'm probably just gonna go right back into my hole i've already had you know since um there was a a book review that just happened on youtube just a couple days ago that it came across i have a google alert for my name and you know so whenever somebody mentions my name it comes up and that came up and uh so it's two people talking about the book yeah and and um just recently there has been a lot of chatter about my book yeah i don't know what kind of generated it and but it's probably what led you to it to communicate with me well i've been into it for for years now what do you think about where the ufo like disclosure stuff is now like are you tracking any of the modern ufo whistleblowers like david grush i'm not doing anything okay i i answer a twitter every once in a while like you yeah and that's about it and one person posted a picture of me a bad picture of me and so i i replied to him i said this is a better picture it was a military picture um to the extent that my name comes up every once in a while i'll go look at it and i'll maybe comment on it if i have a comment um but i can tell you it's ramped up that's for darn sure yeah i mean it's it's way more prevalent now and again i think it's because of social media i mean people people like to talk now and and whatever the topic is they want to talk about it and so that's just a good fodder for talk has this experience opened your mind to new modalities of physics and communication and i think that's a good thing i think it's a good thing i think it's a like does it make you think that what we think we know and the received wisdom that we're taught in schools is extremely limited oh i don't know um i've always been interested in in advancements and stuff like that so when i do see an advancement or i see um like that uap thing that just with the rocket i don't know you've been with that yeah the hellfire missile yeah yeah that eric bro said just showed in front of congress yeah i i have a i have an intellectual curiosity about it but i don't necessarily correlate it with my experience um only because i i've there's just been so much so much over the years that that people say well does that correlate with what you do is that clearly when i have no idea like i don't know i have no idea i have as much idea about it as you do did um did stephen grier ever reach out to you i i've talked with him i think a couple times over the years um because he has a whole cadre of like whistleblowers from isn't he the one that he's the one that started that that project disclosure i think yeah disclosure project yeah that's what i was trying yeah okay yeah yeah yeah yeah that yeah so they've been reaching out to you they have yeah yeah okay not stephen grier himself but somebody else now stephen grier i think him and i talked a long time ago okay um but there's somebody else that's reaching out now that talking about testimony and stuff so okay and he is in the position to get whistleblower uh immunity and all that so okay it's like somebody from the government or on the outside working with the government okay somebody on the outside but working with the government to get to the right people to give the right kind of immunity so that people can feel free to to say what they want to say would you testify before oh yeah i go you'd go under oath oh definitely but i would do it but it's not gonna for me anyway from my project so long ago i don't think it's going to really reveal a lot of information but if you were called to go like in a couple weeks i would give any information that i have yeah well that's awesome and i think it's a again for the audience to hear that level of confidence yeah i mean i there's nothing it's if they give me the immunity necessary so i can talk about and not worry about talking about the stuff that i you know worked on yeah ancillary to the gray project there's no reason not to i mean yeah it'd be open book yeah that's me yeah yeah under threat of perjury yeah yeah exactly yeah well yeah this is the most nonchalant conversation i've ever had about alien telepathic communication how chalant can it get well a lot there's a lot of drama and you know it's a lot of like bluster often when with these sorts of stories and it's it's refreshing to just hear like uh you know these are the facts but uh it's been an honor to speak with you i really appreciate you coming out here and it means a lot it's been fun yeah what do you think i'm the final question bones and spock um what do you think they wanted with humanity do you think they had any sort of intentions for humanity at large um well i think they were soldiers i mean not not military but like they were underling yeah yeah they were just doing their job so to speak yeah but um i i didn't ever get a sense of um any type of uh anger or any type of um not being gentle towards us you know having a nefarious motives or anything like that and so when i do see hollywood project you know the aliens are just you know they're they're out to get us and they're not going to be able to get us or whatever i don't really see that that's the case i mean imagine being so advanced that you could coexist with another species and then not know of your existence totally i mean other than the ones that you want them to know your existence and and be nefarious towards us there's no reason to be never right towards us um or to put it differently we'd be dead already yeah if they were yeah yeah so i think that they just want the best for our society society and maybe that's why they haven't revealed themselves because the whole star trek uh mantra uh you know don't don't interfere in other people's other societies or or you know uh because you you interject into their society something that would not have been there naturally so you're you're basically an enemy of that whatever that ecosystem is because it's not natural so maybe they're thinking like that maybe they want to not be as um interfering as as uh you well you don't want to be as interfering as you could be if you didn't have the um uh control you know they they control things so they're going to interfere to the extent that they want to interfere yeah and they haven't they haven't chosen to interfere more than they have so well speaking of star trek it's like the prime directive minimal minimal interference with pre-warp drive civilization yeah exactly so that's what i was saying maybe your names were apt exactly there's a little bit of a circle there right yeah um yeah so i don't think they have any um any bad feelings or bad intentions towards us i'm excited to see where all this goes i am maybe slightly more optimistic than you i think get the full, I think like, you know, the quote unquote disclosure moment people think of in their heads is actually just the start of an infinite number of further questions say you were shown a saucer and a hanger at area 51 that would beget like millions of more trippy questions where you'd be like okay how does it fly where did it come from you know um so i think it's this never-ending sort of bottomless soup but i do think we're going to get more incontrovertible evidence over the next you know couple of decades well we've gotten prior to that yeah i mean it's inevitable to at some point other things are going to come out i mean you can't really keep stuff like that hidden forever yeah it's just not it's not practical um but to the extent that we do get information it's going to be it's going to be a fun time that's for sure i agree well cheers to that and dan thank you so much for thank you taking the time it really means a lot and i know you really never do this so the fact that you responded to me means so much and and trust me with this uh and uh yeah i think uh people will be really amazed at the the story but also how you tell the story and how just kind of non non-plussed in a refreshing way you are yeah i want to thank your uh your crew here they're a good crew oh yeah they're great agreed i want to thank dan sherman for his time here and to you the audience for making it to the end again if you want a deeper dive on project preserve destiny check out our american alchemy magazine i'm linking that in the description and if you want to see this story get the airtime and attention it deserves please spread it far and wide spread it to people who can take action on its implications until next time i'm jesse michaels and this is american alchemy you