The Next Generation of Pearsons | "In The Room" with Writer Vera Herbert (508)

this is a head gum podcast on today's episode of that was us we are diving into season five episode eight in the room kevin and madison prepare to welcome their twins kate and toby face the emotional realities of adoption and rebecca and miguel open up to each other about life after jack's death i hate mondays king's hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite taylor hansen sure i'll try one hey let's get back to work please but taylor hansen's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly king's hawaiian cinnamon bites taylor hansen you nice try one king's hawaiian cinnamon bites there's nothing like it this episode is brought to you by palm olive family time isn't just the big moments it's weeknight dinners sitting around the table everyone talking all at once so when the plates are empty and the sink is full use palm olive ultra palm olive's most powerful formula removes up to three of the most powerful formulas in the world up to ninety nine point nine percent of grease leaving your dishes sparkling clean and the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together shop now at palmolive.com hello hello what's going on sally we we talked about 507 last week we're in the 508 and so we we're expecting some babies to be born here lots of babies lots of babies we got twins brother we got a a daughter from sister um in tv land this is insanity yeah like like to to to have pets or animals uh in a show is considered a burden on production and this show just keeps adding them by the multiples bring the puppies bring the babies bring them all dan would love to complain about it like oh my gosh everything's crazy we're like dude you'd be writing this you're in control yeah this is your ship we're all aboard just trying to get to people what they want that's all he's doing um who wants to start what storyline this episode starts out in an interesting way in our in the way that our series tends to do oh yes yeah i can't wait to talk about this new people me too and it's funny because my husband came in at the tail end of this episode and was like what i don't understand the connection and i had to explain to him moment in time sir moment you can't jump in like in the middle but also the moment in time that we were all living in i think like really this episode spoke to that so the episode starts out with an albuquerque 1916 3 welcome international students and we're like okay and there's this beautiful woman and this sweet sort of um a nerdy indian man he had glasses he's reading a book he's reading a book and he's like oh my god i'm not reading a book sitting outside by himself i don't want to gloss over the smoke show no no gorgeous uh both of them yeah both of them were beautiful this is a an attractive this was an argentinian indian connection that i was like i stand for this oh yeah i stand hard for both of them he's into computer engineering um you know and she's kind of like he's reading a book on computer engineering right and he's correct she's basically questioning like what are you doing out here what is so interesting why are you reading a book and she's like i'm reading a book on computer engineering like she's fiery and a delight yeah and he tries to explain what he's working on what he's studying what he's thinking about and she was like i don't know about any of that but i like the sound of your voice i have no idea what you're talking about but i know i love hearing you talk girl you better come i like the way you talk yeah it was it was hot i was like all right i'll marry you yeah yeah totally let's get married so the next time they see us we have a baby what a sweet meet cute for sure and then the next time we see them they are in fact in the hospital and she was just giving birth to his son yeah yeah and then wait is there anything else that happens in that scene in particular no no no no that's it right she's like what are you doing nerd got a light yeah yeah yeah they have the baby and then the next time we see them he's coming home late yep and she's pissed yeah and she basically is like okay if you're gonna be spending all this time away from your family yes i need you to tell me like walk me through this and i'm gonna tell you what i'm going through exactly what you're working on and why it is so important and why you were so excited because it is clear to us that he believes he's on the brink of something yes something huge yes something monumental that's correct more to come we'll sort of end that we'll hold that secret and jack and jump into jack and rebecca jack and rebecca yeah going wanting to go to the cabin planning family vacation you know jack is gung-ho about like family trips they're going to the cabin they're going to the cabin planning family vacation you know jack is gung-ho about like family trips they're going to the cabin planning family trips they're going to the cabin everyone's excited except the kids right everyone's excited except the kids right everyone's excited except the kids right they're at that age where they're like the they're at that age where they're like the they're at that age where they're like the cabin's lame we want to hang out with cabin's lame we want to hang out with cabin's lame we want to hang out with our friends we don't want to be with mom our friends we don't want to be with mom our friends we don't want to be with mom and dad told you it's coming oh i'm and dad told you it's coming oh i'm and dad told you it's coming oh i'm horrified already i'm just i don't we horrified already i'm just i don't we horrified already i'm just i don't we just i i i i have a hard time Well, I don't have a hard time picturing it because even now at five and three, there are certain moments where I'm like, no, I don't want to go on this trip. Let's just stay here. It's easier. Let's stay here with them. What do you say trips with kids are just different places to have snacks? It's not a vacation. It's a relocation. It's a relocation. Let's pack up all this junk that we have here and move it to a different house. Yeah. Here's a question for you guys as we get into that sort of segues with the arc. Have you young parents had a vacation with just your significant other without your seed, without the children? Not since Lou was born. Yeah. Yeah. We took a nice little vacation a couple of years ago before I was pregnant. Okay. When it was just the two boys. And then you created a good one. Like a 10-day one. We did not create a baby on that trip. We should have. And ideally, yes, we should have. Like a 10-day trip. It was a 10. I remember. I remember. I remember when you told Rachel. That you were going on this vacation. And Rachel and I looked at each other with the deadest eyes. Like, what does that mean? Like, how? You can. Like, we couldn't even figure out. I know. We were so envious and so jealous. I still dream about that trip. I bet you do. I bet you do. It was great. I bet you do. It was ideal. That'll never happen again for a long time. You? I still dream about your trip. No, you haven't done that. Right? It took, it was like 11 years of parenthood before I think we took a trip without the kids. Oh, wow. It was a long time. And I'll say I felt like it was too long. That's too long. I don't think it was too long because there's, you know, you have these feelings and we get into this, the feelings of guilt from being separated or whatnot, but also the necessity to nourish each other in a way that's really difficult to do when the kids are there. Yep. You know what I'm saying? You? Yeah. We've gone away for like a night. A night. Two nights. Okay. A few nights, but nothing. I think it's like, it is really imperative. Yeah. If one can. If there is. If you have the resources at your disposal. The resources, the way, you know, support to take care of the family at home. I think it is essential to have that connection. And if one can't go away for like, you know, four or five days or whatever, just going for those like one nights or just a night away, a staycation somewhere is like. You can get a hotel with yourself. It's so, just to keep that connection. Yes. Like that is. Agreed. We were just talking to friends about that the other day. Yeah. I feel like, yeah. Dead in the eyes. Dead in the eye. Dead in the eye. What are we doing with our life? That was a big trip. That was like a big endeavor for us. You're like, take us with you. Yeah. Pack us in your suitcase. Take us with you. That would have been so fun, by the way. That would have been so good. We're good at traveling together. We did that once. We got to get back on that. Okay. Because like, you guys are fun to travel with. We could do that for sure. But on the flip side of it, we just had, I just ran into a friend who had a whole Japanese vacation planned and was like, yeah, we canceled it. Because the teenager was like, so difficult. They just had a trip that was so difficult. They're like, we're not doing that again. Oh, interesting. Because he's in this place of like, nothing's cool. Yeah. Doesn't appreciate anything. Oh, yeah. And so it was like, well, then we're not spending all this money to go somewhere that you're not going to appreciate or at least try to have fun. Yeah. I feel you. I don't know. This is a small thing. The other day, I was asking. I was asking Ryan if she wanted to go to church. Because I don't go every week, but I go a lot and I enjoy it, right? And she's like, yeah, yeah, we should. We should go to church. And then she goes, let's get the kids ready so we can all go. And I said, you know, never mind. Because I wanted to go to church with my wife. Yeah. And like Sunday mornings, the kids hang out all the time by themselves. Like they'll sleep late, et cetera, et cetera. And the idea of like waiting for everybody to get ready and hearing them sort of complain about this and that. And I was like. Not worth it. And you know what happened? I went by myself. It was awesome. Praise Jesus. I will do this. It's that kind of church. And plus, you know what I'm talking about. It's a good church. It is a great church. But it was like, and she missed it. Like I was like, hey, Bird. Let's do it. You want to go to church? And she's like, yeah, let's do it. And I was like, no, you missed it. It's all good. Let me go make this meditation service. I see y'all. You're disinvited. You are uninvited. Yeah. Sure. But I'm just saying this because there is, so Rebecca points out, as Jack is sort of hemming and hawing and being like, no, this is what we're going to do. Yeah, the kids are like, we want to go on a sleepover with our friends. Right. And you're like, yo, man, can we conference? Let's have a little kibitz around the corner. Like, would it be so bad if we have like a little time to ourselves at the cabin? Like make it a little romantic time, you know? And he's like, all right, the sleepover train leaves at 8 o'clock in the morning. Da, da, da. They go off to the cabin and Rebecca's like, you know what we don't have to deal with? Rebecca listing the things we don't have to deal with. What was Kate doing? What was she doing? Oh, recapping 90210. I can't tell if it's a bad show or if Kate's just a terrible storyteller. Which is harsh. Such a low blow. This is really hard. I'm like, damn. You guys are just behind me, but like 90210 is high school. Yep. Love 90210. Yeah, it was a little before me. Yeah, a little before you. It was great times. We were saved by the bell. Yeah. That's as close as we got. I'm saved by the bell too. Oh, gosh, man. Zach, come on. That's my guy. Then the boys, I don't have to listen to the boys arguing with each other. Yeah, call each other butt munch. And you're just sort of like reveling in just sort of a little bit of peace that we get. And each time you say it, Jack's like, yeah, okay. Yeah, you could just tell he's like a little wounded every time. Yeah, every time. You know? Also, the way it's written, like a little holier than thou. Yeah, a little dramatic. Come on, Jack. Play along. I felt that way too. Yes, and. Wasn't like, yes, the Kate one was a little harsh, but also it's like, it's what we do. We have to like let off a little steam with each other. Because I feel like I'm between both. Of you guys in this and in recognition of where he ultimately comes back to. It is the idea that things are happening possibly for the last time. Sure. That's it. And because you, you guys, you as a couple, Jack and Rebecca, don't get to go through gradations. They all three hit it at the same time. Do you know what I'm saying? You don't get to go 16, 14, 12. I still got a little bit more time here. Da da da. So, have you guys seen this trend video going around? No. Speaking of social media we're talking about on the break. Remember we talked about, somebody said the saddest thing where it's like, one day you'll pick up your child for the last time and you won't know it. Yeah. So, now parents are. Picking up grown ass kids. I've seen this. Picking up like 13 year olds. Yeah. And like holding them and filming it and be like, this is the last time I'm going to pick you up. God, don't make me cry. But just knowing it. And like. And like owning it. I'm going to like absorb this moment. And the kids letting it like. I kind of love that. Doing it too. I kind of love that. Like letting it be a thing. I think that's a great trend. That's awesome. Oh my God. I'm going to do that. Anyways, I just wanted you both to know today is the last time that I'm going to hold either of you. Let's get the camera. And the full circle. And the first time. First and last time. You've held me all the time. HR, go to two. There is. There's. There's. It reminds me of like. I don't know if you guys ever had this yourselves. But I'm a. I'm a big fan. I'm a big kid at heart. And there'd be times when my mom and I would be grocery shopping late at night. And I'd be like, mama, will you push me in the cart? And I'm like 16, 17. We're in high school. I'm in high school. And she's like, yeah, I'll push you in the cart. Wait. Would you get your legs? Try and get your legs in there? Couldn't fit. No, you just get in the cart. You just get in the cart. You have to sit in the belly of the cart. Yeah, sure, sure. And it was delightful. Yeah. Delightful. I still. I still, on a regular basis, will push the cart and jump up on it and ride it. Come on, bro. That's what the cart is for. Yeah, yeah. It's like a little skateboard. Who doesn't do that? I got to make sure. I'm too heavy now. I got to make sure there's something in the cart. Okay. Counterbalance. Or else it pops that wheelie. Counterbalance. I got you. Pops that wheelie. And then it gets really embarrassing. Oh, God. More That Was Us after these words from our sponsors. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Financial stress, gang, affects more than our bank accounts. It can take a serious toll on our mental health and relationships. With 88% of Americans feeling some form of financial stress at the start of 2026. I remember quite vividly living beneath the poverty line and really trying to find a way to take care of myself mentally, physically, spiritually. That was also cost effective. Right. Right. Wanting to find someone who I could talk to. Like sometimes it was just not enough. Right. Not an option for me because I didn't feel as if mental health was something that I could afford. 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And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at Palmolive.com. Daydreaming about Fiori's soft Dreamknit fabric? Meet the Halo Essential Wide Leg Pant, designed with Fiori's softest premium stretch Dreamknit fabric. Pre-order now. As Jack is about to leave, they notice in the corner there's some water damage through the roof coming down into like a pile of like keepsakes for the kids. Yeah. There's like a box of stuff. Is that what it is? Boxes of stuff, et cetera. And so he's just sort of like tired of hearing you rag on the kids and everything. Yeah. He's like, "Yeah, good one." I mean, he's really also sabotaging himself. Like this is romantic weekend, bro. We can't get it together. Yes, and. Yeah, let it go. The kids aren't here. She's complaining about them. Let it go. We get it. Yeah. You're the best. Oh, Jack. Yeah. But the counterbalance is like, she's like, "We can throw this crap away. Like nobody's going to be covered for cost." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody's going to be covered for cost or anything like that. But she sees that he's sort of annoyed. look at all these shitty kid artists we got what are these finger paints why do we even keep this i would like to think that i did it with a little more grace of like well they're not going in the meds you did let's not get too sad about it you both played it as written it was just written a little harsh but she clocks and he comes back and you like actually trying to hang up the the paintings and try to dry them out you know it may not be perfect but it'll be something and then that's when sort of jack goes into like you know like we're losing like they're we only have so much time left and they already think that we're not cool and they're doing their things and just trying to find this time to connect and do stuff and and you sort of encourage him and it was an echo did anybody hear this 105 echo the painting and you talking about like you know oh it's all still there yeah yeah speak speak because like i like i got a little i got a little something there yeah the painting she talks about you know there's this one particular painting that in the present day you kind of notice is hanging in the cabin it's never been there before but um spoiler alert um but rebecca's like kind of clocking it um and she's explaining in the past that it's you know it's all of their handprints and it's and because it's all it's been you know it's gotten wet from this leak they're all kind of like bleeding together and she goes you know we're all still in there together even if it doesn't look the same anymore right um and you're right that does kind of like hearken back to kevin and the painting and the fact that like yeah it's all it's all there always whether people are physically there not physically there have passed on like all of it still it still matters it was a bad painting now it's a terrible painting but with my jack is still a painting and it's a reminder to always be close to the never miss a thing yes there you go that was that was i think the the sort of resonant theme that kind of permeates the rest of the episode and yeah um i could lay awake you're right it does yeah he does it a lot it's a real yeah 90s let's do katobi let's do katobi that that was the end of that was it the end of that one uh uh kate is down in san diego with what's her birth mother's name ellie ellie thank you played by annie funky played by annie funky and annie got funky with it she got great she was wonderful uh kate winds up sending like a text thread out to the family just saying like you know she's not dialed labor updates etc and tobias is like no no no no no look i know that this is not going to be the end of the show this is the whole thing is happening and whatnot but like i'm your man yeah we're not if i don't get to be in the room or not i need my own personal husband father to be updates please and thank you she's i love a group it's so funny because like the day before this happened yeah this happened to me and rachel yeah where i got new information about my life yeah on a group text and i was like and don't get me wrong i love a group text i actually i actually love a group text more than most yeah you're good in a group text i like it yeah you're good in a group i like getting in there and seeing who's up to play i'm with you you know and as long as there's one or two other people there's always one person who's like dead quiet who you're just like you know it's just fuming fuming at the like yeah yeah and you know sometimes it's mandy no it's not sometimes no no no never once in a while and then you get on you get it and you're like oh okay no never honestly sometimes i'm surprised when i come back and it's like 87 text messages you're like what what did i miss memes is everybody okay oh it's just chris you missed me and matt coma meeting for the first time over text messages that was that was funny game met game yeah and i and i'd never met this guy on a and i we met for the first time in a group text okay with mandy yeah and i was like who's this lover oh yeah who's my lover yeah hello my long lost friend we just had like memes and gifs and yep oh yeah and apparently a lot of free time you find the time oh my gosh so toby did not want in on the group text when it came to this personal information and this is all going down in the parking lot toby is is tailgated himself are you in san diego or in the or back of the minivan yeah yeah he's in the hospital yeah and he's got a little camping setup a little ice chest a little folding chair yeah um i think i'm pretty much wearing all my own clothes were you yeah i remember i remember like oh i remember that the hat and the jacket it was all my stuff i don't remember why but i think i showed up to like a costume fitting and i'm like why don't you just wear that i've never got a chance to do me either that's amazing well toby and i eventually became the same you just became you sitting in the parking lot you're waiting for your update it's you're in you're cozy you're settled old older gentleman comes in and uh he says hey man you're in my spot and you're like bruh it's he's like i can see like 10 and i ain't even looked in the other direction jack you know what i'm saying it's like you need to back back real quick and so the older gentleman winds up telling you about he's like you know i'm actually waiting for my wife to to or my baby to be born yeah and he's like well i'm waiting to see if my wife's gonna die yeah we the first house we lived in was at 157 something something and so i've always parked in spot number 157 he gives the story and he goes are you still gonna make me like go somewhere else are you gonna let me have my spot and you're like no sir i get it i can move over right this this night of shooting ken olin directed this episode right yeah he did yeah it was such a cozy like it's one of those perfect nights of shooting yeah you know the difference like you know what i'm talking about i do where you show up and the work is is just enough to be like sunken into but not overly strenuous i got you and it's a comfortable situation and it's a beautiful night yeah and i didn't know who they'd cast to play this guy and then i see michael o'neill and i'm like shut up you gotta explain like like so i out to michael o'neill stories he was on army wives and that and he pops up all over the place he's been working his whole life but he's the reason why i stopped watching gray's anatomy now get this this is not this is a good story don't make that face at the end of season four i want to say there's this whole thing where the shooter is inside of seattle grace i was in that episode that's why i made that face i was like you were so he's like knocking people out because they did something to his wife and he was like it was a malpractice situation so he's sort of just like heartbroken grieving and like not in his right mind and is just going through the hospital taking people out it is a two-hour it's michael o'neill is the shooter michael o'neill is the shooter it is some of the best acting he's incredible that i win anything for that i don't know but like he was so good and then my girl who's like the uh who who's in charge of everybody the black lady chandra wilson yeah sure i know she was the doctor that i was with yes chris it was so amazing i was like i don't think this show will ever be better than this and i just stopped because i wanted to talk about that being like one of like fans favorite episodes of that show and i didn't know what i was doing either it was they i mean i watched the show i think i'd stopped watching at that point and then and then i got a call and i actually talked to chandra rhyme she was like would you come on and like do this arc it's like a couple episodes i'm like um okay sure i don't know what i was doing but it was freaking freaky dude chandra wilson has a moment where one of the new uh um residents or whatnot he catch caught so caught a bullet and she like holds and cradles him in her arms as he like died bro it was and so michael o'neill like to me is like he's a legend yeah he's incredible he pulled up on this set and i was like oh this is gonna be a good night yeah i was so excited like outside you got that the big the big globe light that they hang up when you're doing outdoor stuff that's supposed to be the moonlight or whatever it is yeah it was a beautiful night to to be working and come throughout the night i find out michael o'neill at the time living two blocks from me oh wow literally around the corner we i don't know if he still lives there i think he might have moved back to alabama he's from alabama okay uh and yeah we see each other walking dogs this story it's in the air it's just in it's in marina del rey yeah marina del rey side of los angeles this whole storyline was so sweet yeah yeah yeah and it really did bring me back to that moment in time because he kind he was like you know this damn virus basically like his wife is sick with covid right she's on a ventilator he's not allowed in there he can't be in there and it was like god yeah this is what we were all living through it's like you know He's like, "Even if I could, she wouldn't allow it 'cause she wouldn't want me sick and like um he tells this whole i don't know if you guys want to jump in this whole beautiful story about um her her like affectation for for um her affection for pigs like she's he he has like a whole dashboard of his van set up with like a bunch of different like pig figurines and he talks about their they went to austria right for their honeymoon and austrians are big on on putting these pigs on everything around the holiday good luck that's right sign of good luck it's it's push time he gets a text that like it's it's you know ellie is starting to push and toby's all excited because he may not get to be in the delivery room but he gets to yeah i get to pick the middle name yeah she can't veto it all it's got a whole got a whole list going list yeah i'm sure there were some uh i put a bunch of my friends names in there a bunch of uh yeah uh i think there's some star wars stuff in there okay um but uh but yeah so he's in the process of picking out a a middle name and he doesn't want to pick it out yet i i actually this is this is what i wrote like um because the the we learned throughout the course of the older man older gentleman's story that his wife's name is rose and we see to buy sort of clock that while he has his list open and i write um it's gonna be rose and i'm gonna cry that's what i that's what you wrote yeah i was like i see it coming now yeah and it's still gonna yeah just get me yeah you know what i'm saying uh yeah old man wipes off a pig gives it to to tobias for good luck man wipes off a pig that old sentence bullet point yeah old man you didn't want to he didn't want to you didn't want to give you a covety pig he didn't it isn't one of them covet pigs is it he didn't want to give you one of the coronavirus pigs i know i'm wiping off all our groceries swine flu wiping off baseballs and everything and he gave it to you for free and he gave it to you for free and he gave it to you for good luck yeah um so then so segwaying away from you to inside the hospital with kate and we see the baby comes right in montage and in montage form and she asks case she says like would it be okay if i held the baby because earlier in the scene she's like yeah uh the nurse made a mistake and called her the mom kate is mom kate is mom baby baby is supposed to go to her first right and she's like sorry i should have looked at the birth plan all good right so then ellie has a bit of a change of heart and she's like do you would you mind if i just held the baby first and we all sort of have that feeling oh god oh god how's this gonna go yeah right and you're like of course like she's not gonna tell her no like you can't really tell her no and then the baby comes and she's holding her and he said she says can we have a moment alone and that's when you're like come on man don't go this far away listen because the thing is we've heard these stories sure of course we've heard these stories and it's your baby and chemicals are flowing through your body and you know psych so else uh miss funk is kind of like yo man like i i had this instinct to take care of you as soon as i knew that i was gonna have you and basically she's saying that like i i wanted to have this moment to say goodbye because i think one of the hardest things to do is to give you to kate and toby but i also think it's going to be one of the best things that i get to do and there's a little bit of like okay and then the next thing we know is we see the nurse carrying the baby and bringing the baby to kate yeah and first baby is so cute oh god they're all such babies i know those cheeks yes who let their baby in here especially when i saw how sweet it was i was like girl you're gonna keep this baby because my sister been waiting for a long time for a baby and you should you should have told if you're gonna keep it yeah also kind of a kind of a rare moment beautifully played by annie for for a guest star yeah yeah beautiful she's great she had like a real family moment like she did a little soliloquy yeah yeah she got to like herself yeah like have a little conversation with her baby say rock the funk yeah she did yeah so now we'll save a little bit of the connection thing because it'll go back to our smoke show argentinian and um indian couple in a minute there right so we should go to kev kev and madison so well well before kev even gets it because we don't know madison and randall and beth is what i have that's yeah go ahead start they're facetiming on the road trip right i'm on the road beth is upset there was no special sauce like that real what are we eating what are we eating i don't know it was the only thing open beth was talking about it was the only thing opened in the middle of alabama as these seasons go on as these seasons go on every time every time she's on screen i'm like am i in love with beth yeah i'm like i think everybody is i think i'm in love with that yeah yeah yeah ken ken would just shamelessly he'd be like hey hey sue how you doing today like he was like a little kid around her and we like go to give her hugs and everything i was like maybe i could touch my tv wife yeah getting you get a little too excited sir back back madison feels like she's impeding on you know like intruding on their time together and they're like what are you talking about we're just we're driving we're all kind of trying to keep each other company you're keeping them awake randall tells the tells her that he's kind of a baby birthing expert i was like is this randall or is this sterling or both both of us yeah i know delivered the first child yes yes yes right and then randall is we're kind of like cutting back and forth yeah randall ends up telling her his story you kind of like hear the end of it so she's getting the story because i think she's deciding to get that epidural yeah yeah yeah yeah have you done you did the duro just once i couldn't the first two the third one i did you did yeah couldn't i couldn't oh wow yeah yeah was it so morally morally no no i couldn't i have a i i in pregnancy i have like a little blood disorder okay that wouldn't that like my i have clotting gotcha and so i couldn't do it for the first two but the third one i took steroids before i gave birth yeah to up my levels my yeah and um and then i was able to get that that sweet sweet epidural was she more sweet was it much easier number three than one and two yeah yeah it made your face i mean and my doctor was like you don't really need it because you've already you know the path has been paved but i was like yeah yeah can you please not call it a path but also like this is my last time doing it and i don't know if it's going to work or not i don't know if it's going to work or not i don't know if it's going to work or not i don't know if it's going to work or not i don't don't know if it's going to work or not i don't know if it's going to work or not i don't know if it's going to work or not has been primed ma'am but i want to try all the ways and since i had done two unmedicated i was like let me do that sweet medicated and it was delightful i just was more i felt very like present i was able to like really like yeah be there yeah rachel's first she had she had the epidural again present yeah well time well smooth time for some music some candles the second one was so fast that by the time she turned it said i'll have an epidural now the nurse laughed at her she was like no it's happening you're giving birth the child's head is out yeah yeah it's happening now like as soon as you as soon as you'll get in the position it's happening yeah you know so that's that so that's what's happening yeah she's it's a big needle she needs to be distracted i was like taylor did you watch them do that for me he was like no no i did not watch that there's when whenever they were doing any of that stuff they were always less concerned about rachel and more concerned about me yeah really do you want a seat sir would you like a seat i'm no i'm fine i'm fine are you sure come come sit down and i i just began to realize like like they had seen so many men just like just like look at it and they looked at me and they're like we're not catching this like like if this guy goes down we're gonna have another patient yeah like like so they would like triple checking no chair no stool crutches nothing you're good why don't you lean up against another bed yeah yeah we're gonna have to have you sign this form you know what it's funny because like being at home for both of them or whatnot i think like there's something there would probably been more interesting knowing that i wasn't allowed the same proximity that i got at home where i probably would have been more nervous sure at the hospital sure yeah you know what i'm saying it feels more like official the midwives are like you want to get in here i'm like yeah okay i'll get in here you know cutting cords and you're like you're just like right next to me you're like all right this is like you're watching something like amazing take place or whatnot but if other people are sort of like keeping you back then you're kind of like all right should i help should i not help like am i in a way am i not in a way like i don't know i haven't had the experience so you yeah you can speak to it i was front and center for bear's arrival yeah it was like it was like perfect obviously well lit they got that like spotlight and david bowie came on the playlist like like memory of a free festival do you know that song no it's it's this like trippy hippie dippy song okay but at the end there's like this like cacophonous like chaos sound and then this chorus starts singing this the sun machine is coming down and we're gonna have a party and then he made his arrival yeah and and that loops over and over and here he comes oh my god wow and rachel rachel and i were recently watching the pit yeah where they have incredible makeup are you on season one or season two we're on season two one they had the delivery dude and and that's my tv wife who delivered that baby on the pit oh tv wife from from uh paradise oh yes of course of course yeah yeah and and rachel turns to me goes is that what it looks like i was like yes yeah listen because on the pit like the shoulder was stuck uh-huh so my man has to like get in yep open so the shoulder can pop through i was like oh god yeah no thank all kinds of stuff happening all kinds bodies are amazing amazing there is there's the distraction and he he he fumbles for a minute beth is like don't tell the story about being dropped at the uh fire department and so he comes up with this story about his brother in high school junior prom and he has one too many coming home drunk coming home drunk you know and she's like don't think about the drunk part just think about you know charming young man trying to find his way no baby alcohol somehow winds up a little baby alcoholic back when he was cute oh before the real problem just a little just a little couple of beers yeah what's uh what's benicio's line and maybe a few little a few small beers or just a few small beers this is one battle after another oh yes yes yes god i don't know a few small beers he is unhinged in that movie i love him so much oh my god i want to watch a whole movie of that character karate instructor phenomenal yeah he strips off all of his clothes and he starts like singing hansen to himself right doing a little umbop what have you and he looks at random naked buck booty ass naked pasty white all glory it's a full moon bright full moon and uh he said he freezes and randall says i think he's about to yak and we're a brother band you know they have hansen we could be piercing and then like he starts singing umbop terribly just the only way i tried to find like that i said guys you want me to scale it down to put it in my register and they're like no sing that shit up you got you got up there i did the best i could that was a nice falsetto i appreciate that and then beth joins in and we do the thing and like it's it's a moment of sort of she's not thinking about the needle going into her back right yeah and then at the end when the whole thing is done kev's there yeah oh i know i was like i literally went oh like when he walked in like i forgot he made it i was so like taken by your by that story kev made it which led me automatically like what did he tell this black woman that let him on that plane that's a charming mother you know what i'm saying yeah um but i was happy to see him he was happy to know that somebody was sort of keeping his wife company as it was all going down and then they have a wonderful conversation you asked me to think about like what place this family has in my life and he's like dude this family is my life my life yeah right and i think at this point now montages begin and babies start to be born yeah this is this is when the phones come out yeah yeah so what so the babies are all born babies are born first yes right yeah then it's sort of like it starts to intercut right it starts to intercut with like yes with the montage and then photos being shared and facetimes happening and whatnot right to the nerdy smoke show we can go back to the nerdy smoke show do we have their names i want to i want to yeah shout out nerdy smoke show abhi simha simha and katie sarif they killed it they were great they were wonderful they're absolutely wonderful so so my man i'll be not here starts to explain because she's like explain this to me like i'm a four-year-old because that's how old their son is he says like there's this network of computers that is being built all over the world and they're interconnected with one another and we have the ability and soon they're going to be in people's houses like we'll have access to it's like a web an interconnected web of computers if you will all around the wide world and if you show a picture on one then you can sort of instantaneously show a picture like when you need to communicate with your mom or whatnot we have to put something in the mail and you sent there and it takes a while to get there imagine if you could electronically electronically take a picture and then it shows up on our computer and not just pictures but even videos right and then the montage continues and you see this family that has a cabin outside in pennsylvania and we're in on a car in alabama and we're at a hospital in san diego and a hospital in new york middle in los angeles and there's this whole thing that was we got to talk about miguel but there is like this this beautiful web of interconnectivity that is allowed in this time where everybody has to practice social distancing yeah you know what i'm saying that's like oh wow like and it it makes you remember like because we talk about like what is the right place you guys were talking on the commercial break what's the right place for social media like the the role in which technology can play to amplify our lives and sometimes not so much right makes us feel this this was a moment where we're highlighting the beauty of connection and how technology has allowed for something to transpire that would not have existed five years prior 10 years prior yeah you know something like that and it's gorgeous the twins get a chance to meet their cousin you know hayley rose and grandma and grandpa get a chance to see all the grandchildren and even randall and beth in the car and it's just like dude and so we'll go back to the to uh your storyline but also we can't gloss over the hayley rose damon of it all that's right because you introduced she introduces hayley yeah and you said hi hayley rose that's right because he wanted to meet her first before he picks a name that's right yeah and i gotta say it does go well it does hayley rose damon really does rose is is one of those vintage names that is perfect yeah yeah yeah yeah i know an amaya rose yeah it's good it's coming back it's good okay to finish off kev he winds up having a conversation with randall randall thanking him thanking him he said look man the thing that i was most worried about is that she was going to be alone as i was up in that plane and to know when i heard your voice like sort of keeping her company i really appreciate it and and thank you and he winds up saying you know i know i said a lot of things about you but honestly randall you're you're like the best man i know and i'm trying to like just keep up with you and i i'm getting a little misty with her i just even hearing it he he gets a little bit more of that and then he gets a little bit more of that and then he gets misty he randall who's also me but in the car and he's like all right man that's cool he said look we can have we got time for conversations if you want to talk about like childhood and how things were for me i am more than happy to have that conversation but you know what happened right now you a daddy yeah you have two you got two brand new spanking franny franny and nicky nicky for uncle nicky who also got a chance to see his namesake as well and it's this is the the note that i took on this one you don't comment on other people's kids names you let them tell you what their names are and you say i like that yeah you know what i'm saying that's why that's why we announced our names the way we announced our names so no one had to worry about it this the name get on board we said we sent bears bear's name announcement out to people in a jigsaw puzzle okay we copied them and did the same did you really and it was like and it was more it was more less about the game of it and more about like why don't you read it first then call yeah because we didn't want there were certain people around us we didn't want to see their faces hearing for the first time yes because we didn't believe that they could be like and then ifa we're like no one's gonna even know how to know how to say this name and so we hired a guy from youtube yeah who specializes in the irish language yes and he made a video to announce her name explaining her name and she was like i don't know how to pronounce her name i don't know how how it's supposed to sound we sent that to everybody yeah that's perfect you guys are so creative there's there's i ryan i not me but rye desperately wanted like familial approval over names so she would share like ideas oh i just want to say this and you guys will echo this uh young parents or parents to be or whatever don't tell nobody nothing about your names yeah unless you know that they are just fans and we're going to be nothing but fantastic towards you keep that ish to you yourself and then once they know the name then they can get on board yeah that could that that caused so much stress bro i was like will you quit you're eliminating all the possibilities each time you say one and somebody has a reaction and now we can't sit yeah kept it in okay i'll keep them i'll keep them anonymous but i i had this these friends the two sisters were pregnant at the exact same time yeah and uh sister a older sister had her baby first okay and announced the name via email and then sister b was like that's the name i've been telling you this whole time that i'm gonna name my kid and and she was like what oh my god i had to decide to change the baby and send out another email older sister changed the baby's name well good for her because it was named after a relative and yeah i was I, I don't, those types of social situations when they're not happening to me yeah i love i want you want all of it pull up a chair and pop some popcorn and watch it unfold oh my god especially since there's no like real danger like it's not real danger it's just social danger and i must have played it out for rachel i'm like rachel picture sister b's face reading the name announcement email and being like what what and then having to call you i just love it so much i love i love awkward yeah so much okay here's an awkward name like my contribution to it when your children are born at home you legally have 365 days to give them a name only when they're born at home yeah i think the hospital mandates that you give them a name before leaving interesting but when you don't have to go to the hospital you have 365 days caveat you don't get a social security number until you have a name and a birth certificate there you go ryan michelle beth they loves to make decisions by not making decisions so i was like bird we gotta name this kid and she's like i know i'm like you have any thoughts and she's like i've lots of thoughts i was like any thoughts that you'd like to share in terms of a name no i was like okay i want to share some thoughts and she's like i like that one i like that one too i was like well you should choose one she's like we don't have to right now and i was like yeah no we don't we have 365 days but he'll be like off the the record yeah yeah yeah so we got off the grid we called him like baby boy brown for a week although i immediately sort of started calling him amari oh this was amari this is amari so amari's full name is yeah because we couldn't decide amari michael ryan christian brown yeah and that's how it works in our house because it's like you know what we couldn't make a choice so we just put them all together yeah why not yeah there's plenty of room yeah plenty of room he's got options he can play with it although someday at the dmv he's gonna so what are the middle names he's gonna call you michael ryan christian michael ryan christian got it got it because i wanted to do amari michael christian brown and i think she in all of her delightful vanity wanted him to be like amari ryan brown and i was like i think ryan's a good name but her her birth father's last name is christian so i was like i'm honoring in that like you and like your dad and everything like that and she's like yeah and our lord and savior jesus christ and lord and savior hallelujah um but she's like ryan's gonna be in that too and so like i would actually pull people and she didn't necessarily want amari for the first name amari came to me like in the car and i was like so andrew and amari i like the double a's of it all and and the name means cherished one you know or loved one etc and i was like yeah i think i'm gonna love him and like i just said i think i'm gonna love him i said right i said i got i got a name and she goes yeah and i said amari and she goes oh i like that name i was like yeah so i'm gonna call him so for 30 days i just called him amari and she eventually got on board she still hasn't decided she's still she's still she's time has passed she's still up in the air she's on she's on board now yeah i hate mondays king swine cinnamon swirl bite taylor hansen sure i'll try one hey let's get back to work please but taylor hansen's making my day way better with these new soft and swirl bites king's hawaiian cinnamon bites taylor hansen nice try one king's hawaiian cinnamon bites there's nothing like it this episode is brought to you by palm olive family time isn't just the big moments it's weeknight dinners sitting around the table everyone talking all at once so when the plates are empty and the sink is full use palm olive ultra palm olive ultra palm olive ultra palm olive palm olive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 of grease leaving your dishes sparkling clean and the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together shop now at palmolive.com daydreaming about fiori's soft dream knit fabric meet the halo essential wide leg pant designed with fiori's softest premium stretch dream knit fabric invest in your happiness with some of the most comfortable clothes on the planet get 20 off your first purchase at fiori.com halo 20 that's v-u-o-r-i.com h-a-l-o-2-0 exclusions apply visit the website for full terms and conditions so these brothers are on the road to reconciliation yeah right it looks like they're gonna have some sort of substantial conversation sometime in the near future but he's like you get this moment yeah to be the newest father in the pearson family and there is a new big three there's a new big three which i loved them sort of pointing out i think kate says that where you guys are the new big three on the same day yeah maybe we'll be working on levels there's levels to this yeah yeah and we can tie all of this into um the miguel story if we want before we wrap up the yeah because the point was such a beautifully made thing and it goes all goes back to that painting right about how we remain in each other's lives even though it's not the same thing it's not the same thing it's not the same thing it's not it doesn't might not look the same right and here we are in each other's lives but we're trying we're connecting via these phones and screens and all these things and it's a painting that through all throughout this episode as rebecca's been doing everything she can to stay in contact with all of her children you know trying to find the best wi-fi spot or they're waiting for texts to come through whatever it is miguel keeps catching her looking at this at this painting right and he finally he's like oh my god i don't know what to do i don't know what to do i don't know what to do towards the end of the episode says hey what's uh what is that i've never seen that there before when did you put that up when did that get there yeah did you did you put that up just for this moment in time um and rebecca says well she talks about how it's kind of this reminder to always be close and never miss a thing and she feels like at this moment not being there for her kids physically she feels like she's actually letting down jack yeah right yeah she basically is sort of like addresses the elephant in the room and is like you know you've really like been through a lot with this like like jack looms large in the lives of this family yeah like and you really kind of like stuck with us you've had to hold his death differently yeah than the rest of us you're right it's a lot which is i'm a lot mm-hmm he says you're he says you're just the right amount just the right amount yeah even taylor that's when he came in he was like oh that was sweet it is an acknowledgement of like a man whose ego never sort of like made it about him or me yeah you know i'm saying he never sort of said like listen you know i know you guys had like this this dude jack was a part of your life but like i'm here now you know i'm saying he never sort of said like listen you know i know you guys had like this this dude jack was a he's like because i think he had just as much love for the dude as this whole family yeah you know what i mean but still had to sort of like a sort of live in the shadow to a certain extent but he was okay and be okay and be okay because he had self-worth yeah he valued himself yeah he knew what he brought to this family yeah um yeah and i i love even before this you know in in rebecca's sort of nerds and all that stuff yeah and i i love even before this you know in in rebecca's sort of nerds and all that stuff yeah and i i love even before this you know in in rebecca's sort of nerds and nerves and anxiety she asks him to make her a cocktail and i love these little moments between them it's it just is it's cute and it's sweet and it sort of speaks to their connection and their bond that they're having like this anisette or what is the way you two were saying cocktail to each other was just like made me uncomfortable like i was like what this is a code word i don't know i was like she's like i could really use a cocktail and it's like and i just had it's you know when you hear a word and it's like you're hearing it for the first time and mandy moore when she's old lady mandy moore is so gone and she has this like added like old lady attitude you know like that's just like perfect cocktail that's like perfect and and it because it is naughty like she shouldn't be having one and her doctor said maybe once in a while i want a cocktail and i was like really i was like why am i so uncomfortable she says it twice and then he says i don't think you should have a cocktail and then he's like one cocktail coming it's like what is happening right now are we are we gonna smash cut to love making what is happening it's also it's also the um oh my god the the generic like tv version of like a guy walks up like hey barkeep can i get a beer and the barkeep's like sure it's like you want to specify what kind she doesn't drink that much you know she knows how to like call out her And it comes back with Anisette. What do you mean? What do you mean that it hasn't been updated in decades? What do you mean, since the 1870s? They didn't. I'm gone. I'm out. I'm out. Oh, my God. She's like, whoo! It's like. Like gasoline. No, she doesn't say gasoline. It's like car fuel. You mean gasoline? The whole scene. I was like, what is happening? It's like car fuel. I just taste like car fuel. Oh, God, Chris. Just two 40-year-olds playing old people. Charlie's 50. I'm just saying. Oh, my God. Two young people. Role-playing. Oh, let's pretend we're old and see if we can make each other a cocktail. Stop saying it, dude. Dude, the cocktail. I can't. Yeah, there was like no specification. It was just sort of like dealer's choice. Whatever was in the liquor cabinet. I could really go for a Jell-O shot. In that conversation, though, we do find out that evidently like Rebecca let loose in Puerto Rico. They got married in Puerto Rico. PR. Which a big detail to drop and to never see a clip of the wedding. They were going to. They were. They were going to. Hot take. All right. We were going to shoot the wedding and we ultimately decided not to. I think because of COVID and travel restrictions and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a bummer. Yeah. So we lost Puerto Rico and New Orleans in one season. Thanks, COVID. Thanks, COVID. But it was nice to see. It was nice to see the playfulness. And evidently, like, you know, in Puerto Rico, you had some tequila. Yeah. And you're like, you know what? I was a free lady and I had this. I was a married lady. I was happy. Like, hey. Again, before we went off on that ridiculous and very apt a tangent, it was I just like seeing those little slices. Like, it's not often that they're having fun with each other, especially at this juncture. It's like Rebecca's in the throes of like things are about to turn a very different direction. And so, yeah, it's like nice to see them a little lighter with each other. Is that the episode? That's the episode. Well, then it all wraps up and we tie up this, our sexy international couple. Come on. By revealing that essentially this man, the character's name again. Nasir Ahmed. Nasir Ahmed. Yeah. Was one of the original computer programmers, scientists who made essentially. The technology. FaceTime. FaceTime, Zoom, Skype. Yeah. Any of this sharing images and video via the internet. He made it possible. Yeah. And then we end the episode the way we don't end any other episode. The only time we've ever done like a chyron or chyron at the end. And like photos of them as young people. Can I read it? Because it actually happened. And photos of them like Zooming with the writers. The last words are, in the early 1970s, Nasir Ahmed led a team of researchers who developed the discreet cousin training. This technique is still used by companies as part of their image video sharing technology. You don't know his name, but Nasir and his team are responsible for keeping us connected today. He and his wife, Esther, recently celebrated their 56th anniversary. We video chatted to hear their story. Yeah. And I got me like, I don't know if I'm an easy get or hard get, but like, I was like, you're pretty easy. Good. Uh, I remember Fogelman pitching. This idea. And he's like, dude, I'm gonna do this scene where like the guys who, the guy who's responsible for creating like FaceTime, we go into his backstory and then it sort of like ties into the way how people keep connected today. And he's like, it's going to be great. Cause he like, he explains it in like this half assed way. And you're like, what, what are you talking about? And then he's like, yeah, it's gonna be great. Don't worry about it. And like, at that point you just learn to say, okay, yeah, you trust him. It's like his brain works different. Like, I don't know how many people could come up with that. Then the next episode, we're going to do a whole story on the guy who invented Skype and just show him crying at home. What did I do? Just, yeah, um, that's this episode, that's this episode, that's this episode is wonderful for anybody, for anybody who ever, whoever had a problem with our show showing the pandemic. I understand, but I also want to point out, this is why it's important. Yeah. It wasn't. It was important for us to, to show it and to put it into this world because there were important things. Yes. There were terrible, awful, painful, uh, we were surrounded by death and concern and all these things, but there was these, there was these new moments of the understanding of the, the gratitude that we have for connection that evolved out of that time. We did, we did our first zoom birthday for my mom. Yeah. Where everybody, you know, got on the screen and were able to connect with her and she was able to see our faces and smile and we were able to pour love into her like that happened. It came out of COVID, you know what I'm saying? We did a zoom graduation for my buddy's law school that never would have happened if, if, if, you know, he would have just gone to his graduation and the people that were there would have been there, but instead there was like 60 people on a zoom chiming in. Yeah. It was pretty cool. I had a zoom baby shower. So did we? Yes. Yes. Zoom baby shower. I love it. It was great. I love it. Preferred even. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I like, I got to have both ways eventually, but yeah, the zoom baby shower definitely holds a special place in my heart. Are we talking to the writer of this episode? We are. We're talking to Vera Herbert. Vera Herbert. Who was, she wasn't with us on the last season. Every other season. But every other season. And she was like an OG, OG, OG. OG. Also known. We call her Black Vera. Now, why do I, is she black? Not at all. But she was the first person to win an NAACP image award from our show. So I figure you can be Black Vera. You're part of the tribe. She's written some of your favorite episodes, including The Trip. Oh, she wrote The Trip. Yeah. There you go. That was what she won the image award for. That's right. There you go. All right. We'll take a break. Be back with Vera Herbert after this. Vera! Vera! Vera! Welcome back to the Slot of the Show. It's usually a fan segment, but today we've got an interview with one of the most storied writers, not only of This Is Us, but of the That Was Us podcast. One of the people that we talk about the most. We are so excited because today we are joined by the writer behind season five, episode eight, Vera Herbert, aka Black Vera. Vera is here with us to talk about crafting one of the most emotional episodes of the season. And what it was like writing such an intimate, high-stakes hour of This Is Us. So let's jump right in and welcome Vera Herbert to the show! Vera! Black Vera! Sorry to keep you waiting, madam. Hi, Vera. Hi, guys. What's going on, sister? I'm good. How are you guys? Doing great. Wonderfully. You look good. It's been years. When's the last time we've seen each other? I saw you at Kay's wedding. Kay's wedding. That's right. Which was, I don't know, two or three years ago? That sounds right. That sounds right. You look good. You look happy. Thank you. You look, yes, healthy. That's what's most important in these days. Thank you. We're getting into, you know, we're going to talk about 508 and everything. But before we just dump right into the episode, we'd like to give everybody a little bit of an opportunity to talk about how this show came to be in your life. Before you tell us that story, which I want to hear. I don't know if you, do you know how much you've been talked about on this podcast? Yeah, we talk about you pretty incessantly. Yeah. I know that Sterling always says that I won an NAACP award and I did not. Although I was nominated. Are you sure you did? I was nominated. I did not win. Okay. She was nominated for her episode. It all falls apart now. This doesn't lessen your blackness at all. Not at all. At all. I've been nominated many a time. I still claim my blackness. It's all good. So we've been talking about you on this show since, since I mean, inception, and I'm so glad that we finally have you on today. So how did you come? How did you come to this as us? Yes. I had, um, developed a bunch of pilots with the studio that didn't go anywhere. Um, and I hadn't wanted to, uh, staff on any shows because I was like, I just wanted to develop my own thing. Sure. And, um, and then after, after year four of like developing my own thing, I was like, I'm developing a pilot that went nowhere. Um, I was like, I'm really, I'm really ready to be on a show. Like I want to go on a show. And so, um, I think the studio sent me the script and said like, this feels like exactly the match for you tonally of the kind of stuff you've been writing. Um, we think the show is going to go forward and you should read this and you should meet with Dan. So then I met with Dan and it was of course awesome. And then as soon as it got picked up, um, I think I got a call that was like, this is would you like to work on the show? And I said, yes, I, I sure would. Thank you. you will there be naacp award possibilities yeah yeah otherwise i'm out yeah um i think i had met with jess um jess rosenthal like some years before just generally and i think maybe i had kind of stayed on his radar um so he i'm guessing gave my one of my samples to dan um and that's sort of how it all came to be before going any further into the show like you want to tell them a little bit about like the highs and lows of development and having like four pilots like make it to like a certain level and then sort of not seeing it go to fruition like how does that how do you gestate that how does that go through your psyche that is tough it was um so i had a very um fairy tale young hollywood career um i on my 23rd birthday i sold a pilot that i had written on spec on your 23rd birthday i got a call from a friend of mine and she was like i got a call from a friend of mine and she was like i got a call from a friend of mine and she was like i got a call from a friend of mine and she was like i got a call i was day drinking i was watching bill and ted's excellent adventure my agent called and was like the cw wants to buy your pilot and i was like what's that now hold on hold on let me put down my white russian what are we saying and so i had this kind of magical first experience of i wrote a pilot it it sold it got picked up to pilot we went to vancouver and shot it peter hedges directed it um who is an amazing film director if you guys don't know him and um we had a great cast we were like this is great i'm like i'm 23 hollywood is so easy and then it all came crashing down it did not go to series um i spent the next many years just developing more and more pilots and never even getting to that um to that place but had sort of like had that high early on of like whoa it's so cool to get to have your work produced um and and get to work with actors and get to see get to see it all come alive and live in a hotel in vancouver for a month and a half yeah so then it was after that point that that i was just like i'm tired of developing because i feel very frustrated by projects pouring my heart and soul into things that you spend six months or a year or however long working on and then they go nowhere and no one even gets to see them or read them they're just dead like no one yeah they just kind of like disintegrate into the ether it's the worst no one other than it getting sent around by your agent as a sample right for someone else to read um you know friends and family are always like so what do you want to do with this film working on and i'm like well another pilot that's going to be dead soon but yeah i'm getting paid so it's okay um so that's why it sort of it became like i really want to staff and i want to work with work in a room again and be with be with other people and have something that's actually going to go forward and get made and get produced was this is us your first room no i had been in a room before okay um a show awkward on mtv okay when i had just graduated college again i have a very like fairy tale yeah what writers dream of um that i'm very fortunate that that is sort of how my career started that i was able to um kind of straight out of college work um so i was on on awkward for three years and started as an intern and then became an assistant and the writer's assistant and then a staff writer and then i left to go to do my pilot with the cw dude so yeah you came out on how yeah how great that's a big also now not just not just getting not just getting a pilot bought when you're 23 but having to quit your current job totally and be like guys so sorry gotta go i gotta go to vancouver yeah it's terrible i'm really good at this can you tell us if you remember like what those early days in the writer's room like at the beginning of the show was i'm just i am endlessly fascinated i say this all the time but like sterling spent a fair bit um a fair amount of time in the room more than maybe too much maybe too much we'll see we'll see what you think but um but i'm just so curious like what those when when the show was sort of like gestating in a way like when when you guys were all there and figuring out this first season and what it meant and um because you were with us for the first five seasons you weren't there for the last season but i'm just so curious like what you remember what really stood out to you what made it so sort of like special yeah you know we had a really small room at the beginning i think there were maybe only maybe only eight or nine of us writers um and by the by season five you know by the end uh of the show or at least my the end of my run on it yeah i think we had like 15 or something so quite a quite a different size what do most rooms have what's an average yeah what would you say i think it very much varies because there are shows that are just sure we have one one show runner and just a couple of shows that are just one show runner and just a couple of shows that are just writers to kind of help generate material and the showrunner is going to write everything and then there's ones that are you know 20 writers um so we were kind of small and then became big um it was really a a kind of lovely all hands on deck egalitarian um kind of situation where i think even coming in i was i was had not staffed on a show in four years um we had other writers who had never staffed on a show before every but everyone was always like empowered to to speak and pitch and there was never a sense of um that just because you were you were younger or hadn't had as much experience that your ideas were not valid and so it really felt like we a lot of us just kind of came up together on the show um and it it felt like a very positive environment there was a lot of nurturing and a lot of um just everyone sort of appreciating each other's ideas and i think that not that that didn't become true later on it always was true but but coming in especially with it being um because it was an unknown show right it's like so interesting to think back to those days where we were just like hopefully this will work i remember the premiere party that we were all at whatever um yeah yeah that first episode where you guys were all live tweeting and yes and like a yeah yeah yes and it was sort of like whoa people are really watching this this is awesome like before that you know we were working on the show for i think we started that year in may or june and it premiered september yeah you're like in a bubble so we'd already been on it for for several months just in a bubble um had seen the pilot and obviously they knew the pilot had tested well um but it was sort of everything's a gamble you know what is it what night is it airing what's it against what are people tuning into a different show for something other reason that night um so i think it was so exciting to just be be in it and we were all so excited about it and so committed to it yeah even before we knew that it was going to be this phenomenon and i'm often struck by the vulnerability on this particular show that all of the writers exhibited right like you guys at least from what we've heard from from um some of your cohorts is just like it it was like all hands on deck but also like everyone sharing every intimate detail of their life and you in particular had something i don't know if you're entirely comfortable talking about it but i know you've written about it a lot i'm just curious about your connection of losing your father and what that how that influenced your work and also like how you were able to sort of perhaps take your real life lived experience and infuse that into these characters who also lost their beloved father at a young age yeah it definitely was like group therapy yeah um just everyone i think it was honestly day one where i was like well i don't know if this relates but um i lost my dad suddenly at 18 and here's here's how i felt and and sort of told you know the story of how my dad died and and how it affected me and i have two brothers um and so it did feel like i have this this very tragic part of my life but i'm able to channel it into the show and try to bring a realness to the characters and say feelings that i actually felt or things that went on with me that that helped inform some of their um you know storylines and stuff and i think it's in a way that's like not about the show but about me personally it's like a great way to channel grief is to to put it into art right and so that is why i think because we all did that with every aspect of our lives people who had um issues with pregnancy or people who had you know different things it all is what made the show so real that all of us were able to just really yeah deep deep dive into our own our own pasts um and and again because it was such a great group of people that you felt comfortable sharing it from literally day one like you know i'm in a room of strangers and telling them sort of you know the saddest thing that ever happened to me and and felt safe doing that do you feel like do you give and don't give him any credit that he doesn't deserve right because we all wax poetic about fogelman he loves that his head is huge right now but like do you feel like there's anything that he does or did to create that environment is there anything that he did either by example or just by saying like listen this is what i want to make sure that people felt comfortable bringing that themselves or do you feel like it was just the and then one really embarrassing story too and then one time he fell down or something just to keep him humble um yes because i would say from the beginning he made it very clear that he was drawing certain pieces from his own life or um from you know the the the way that jack dies was inspired by something that happened to a family friend of his and he told us the story so it was always clear that he was pulling from his real life and that that was informing his storytelling and so it was like well of course we're all going to to do the same yeah um and and again i think because he was always willing to just listen to the writers um if you if you wanted to pipe up and be like well i have lived this experience and here's why my experience is different than what you guys are pitching um because this is what really happens when when you're 18 and your dad dies or when xyz happens um it was always like okay cool then we will defer to the person who has the lived experience um i love that that we're trying to to put on screen um and i think that that's that's dope yeah okay yeah it shows that that again it dan has always been and isaac and elizabeth too were always just wanted the best idea and the most moving story and um any way that we got there it didn't need to be sort of um from the top down i want to so i have a 508 question you guys so real quick because i remember dan pitching sort of like the framework that he wanted to hang 508 on with regards to the person who invented the technology behind facebook i remember him explaining to me i'm like what is this guy are you serious and then he'll just like don't worry about it it's going to be good and then he'll just like don't worry about it it's going to be good great so i'm curious when he does like his weird dan shit like in the room are you guys all automatically receptive to it or do you have like your moments of like is this shit gonna work or like how does it normally go not always immediately receptive because sometimes you're like i cannot see i am not understanding what's happening here yeah um and with that story specifically we broke it in sort of a generic way we were like uh okay we're gonna it's gonna be a story where a nerdy college guy is like in his dorm room and instead of going out and partying with his friends he's studying like we just had these kind of beats that we felt were probably would tell this story okay um and then we decided to or maybe it was already in the works that we were going to talk to nasr and um once we talked to him and his his wife was on the zoom the entire time unexpectedly and was just like at his side singing his praises the whole time and he was like i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this and i'm gonna do this and i'm gonna do this and i'm gonna do this and i'm gonna do this i'm telling like jumping in over him telling the story for him like about their life and and how he developed this technique and stuff uh it became clear like oh everything we had that was just generic like writers trying to come up with science math algorithm mumbo jumbo is nonsense and the actual story we need to be telling is about these two this couple because this is what is interesting and they're fascinating and his wife is fascinating and um so yes that was a of dan had this idea we came up with a story i was maybe less than excited to write the generic version of the story that we came up with yeah not as no shade to dan but just like we didn't know what the story should be so we again it was just like a nerdy guy in his college dorm studying and i don't remember all the pieces um but it didn't have that magic yet and then when we when we talked to nasr and his wife we were like oh this is the magic i love um and so we just completely broke the story based on our conversation with them it is interesting because we were talking about in the episode it's the one time that we have like uh is it cryon is it chiron at the end yeah yeah at the very end and like so was that dan too like was like because it's the only time we've ever done it and never did it again like just tell me about it like it's just like it just felt right because honestly i don't remember how if that was in post that was decided or if if it was in to help explain a little bit because we decided we were going to need it but i think we were going to need it because i just re-watched the episode this morning so that i would also remember what what that episode was um and as it came out i forgot we had put that in and we put in the screenshot that had them and the photo of them yeah talking to you guys on zoom and so i think it was such a cool way i mean look at the time obviously we were like deep in covid and it was how everyone was communicating so i feel like for people watching it was probably cool to be like oh this is they didn't make any of this up like this is these are the real people this is a real story yeah it was also a little glimmer of of hope like amongst all of this disconnection sure like well here's the story of how we're connecting and and why it's happening this way and there's a real human connection behind it yeah what an amazing yeah what an amazing time capsule for nasser and his wife and and their family yeah to now have this episode they get to be on the show it was sort of dedicated memorialized in a single episode of television it's really interesting sorry to go the broad strokes of the show but are there any like memories that stick out to you just because we haven't been able to talk to you before and you've written so many incredible is there is there an episode of the show that you wrote that's like your favorite or that you're the most proud of you know what i will always have probably i mean the trip being my first episode yeah um and being the first time we went to the cabin and everything like that it's always going to have a very very special place uh in my heart doing the weird the trippiness of it which wasn't something um we ever did again we went back to like i don't i was just gonna say i don't if we ever did another we had dream sequences and stuff we did the one the episode where randall the two different versions of randall's life yes yeah um after the fire it was it was a very cool and it was a hard there was so much logic that had to go into what he's seeing and what he is remembering and what is happening um that it was like a little puzzle pc um yeah and it was yeah i was always just proud of how it sort of came together and and it being the the first episode we ever did the cabin which became so such a staple of the show it's how you became black fear yeah yeah that was it how the nickname came to be is there so okay in in your in going back to 508 is there i was telling the gang i was like at the end of 507 kev is talking to this black lady about how he needs to get onto the plane and i'm wondering was there ever like a shot of like how kevin was able to talk himself onto the plane or is he was just going to magically appear like that was it i because there's a part of me that wanted to see how exactly he charmed the system how he did it you know what i don't think i ever wrote a scene that was him doing it so i'm guessing we just decided i got you we were not going to think about it yeah yeah let's just say he has another kid somewhere if you know what i mean it was going to be season seven i do know what you mean that was the spin-off is there is there anything that you think of in in terms of just like all of the pregnancies um like the sort of near miss of thinking that maybe ellie is going to keep the baby and and like the worry because i had like this sense of worry like did my brother and sister go through this whole thing and now they're not going to get the kid like was there any other directions that this episode could have gone that you guys ultimately decided that this is the way it's going to go you know what i don't remember that specifically although i think with the ellie storyline what i do remember is i we you know have over the years had talked to multiple adoption experts um and and and people who worked in the field and i think they they time and time again told us don't play a storyline of of the mom deciding to keep the baby because it is so damaging to adoption in real life right people are scared to try to adopt because they have this narrative in their head that the birth parents are going to flake out at the last minute and try to keep the baby and it it has a real world effect and so if you can show adoption in this positive light where that is not what's happening that's not what we're playing it will do wonders for or just like the adoption for an audience for someone who is thinking of adopting they might actually go through with it because they're not suddenly scared like well i you know right i keep seeing this thing that the mom keeps the baby and like i don't want to go through that and so as i was watching it um this morning i i it reminded me i i remembered that that that was sort of conversations that we have had because it's no we don't play very hard that kate is is in fear of that right now clearly she is right but um it you see her understanding that ellie needs a moment she's clearly worried but it's not this like boom boom like super scary thing right and then you go to ellie and she gives that speech and then it's just settled and it's not this huge dramatic cliffhanger is this is the baby not going to be able to go home with kate and toby um and i think that's cool that um that that story could have gone many different ways and and that you know we tried our best like we did so many times in the show to to to sort of do right by the the storyline that we're trying to do like vera this is important i i have this conversation with my wife oftentimes and it it's about like the power of media to reflect reality or one version of reality and the power of media to put out into the world images that we wish to see more of right and so sometimes we're just really reflecting and sometimes we're saying we're making an offering and you're talking through those conversations with the adoption experts and saying that like this image is one that is positive for the power of the media to reflect reality and sometimes we're saying we're making an offering and you're talking through those conversations with the adoption experts and saying that like this image is one that is positive for the power of the media to reflect reality and sometimes we're saying we're making an offering and you're talking through those conversations with the adoption experts and saying that like this image is one that is positive for the power of adoption and brings people to the table, rather than having them retreat because of that fear that they've articulated. And I think you need to show both, you know what I'm saying? - Yeah. - But like, I think it's a real treat to be able to put something in the world that's like, you know what, this is something that I, want to do and not to step into it with fear that's a math i didn't think about that but that's not even a hot take i was just like i think our show did a really masterful job of that of handling both sides of that right like you were just saying yeah yeah that's that's awesome man um what else is there there's there's a lot of scaffolding in this episode with regards to brothers leading towards reconciliation do you have any thoughts with regards to kev and randall sort of coming back to each other and the part that this episode played in that arc randall and kevin resolve in ways constantly through the show that that sort of make you be like i wish this is what you know this is what siblings should be yeah so when randall decides to stay on the phone with madison for all those hours yeah how could you not resolve after that you know like how could you it is so exactly what needed to happen what he needed to do for her and what she needed very generous um yeah that for kevin has to then you know come to the table and and say like i whatever he says at the end like you're i'm doing a poor man's imitation of you you're the best person i've ever known yeah when you think about it at an outside context like her baby daddy's brother is in a car driving during like it's so crazy yeah um and it's so sweet yeah um yes it's like if they didn't reconcile after that what are we doing yeah no i was talking to the gang about leaving the set with this information and i was talking about if i was in a similar situation could i leave set knowing like the amount of money and investment that goes into stuff oh having having robert de niro waiting and walking to the set mandy moore is like no you leave you leave your wife is going through this sally was like you leave or whatnot and i was like i i just needs a job i don't know what it was but like like as you were sort of coming up with the calibration of it not having it tip one way or the other like how did you feel in re-watching it i was like oh kevin is tanking his career that's right but mandy's like so you're like so what so this is more important yes yeah i guess yes i was like he is he is making such a choice that is going to leave a lot of people very not happy yeah but also if that's what he needs to do that's what he needs to do um and he'll be fine like he's a cat he's going to land on honestly he always does that's what it is because he is a cat yeah because he's like he left the play he came to see his brother you get to take care of his brother he left this movie he's like i don't care about the tv show the director he left the t he does just and he still is fine and as with adoption as with adoption you made every independent film director believe that they could get robert de niro in their movie it's possible and you know i'm not going to lie to you it's possible it's possible anything is possible anything's possible okay as we as we we finished the show but you left at the end of season five you want to talk about your your thoughts and reasons because i remember when i found out that black vera was going i was like not black i need black vera in my life talk to us about like what where you were in life and what you needed to do for yourself that made the transition a necessary part for you i had a movie that was that was coming out yeah um and i really wanted to start working on my feature career because i knew that i wanted to have kids very soon yeah and really wanted to be able to be on a feature writer's schedule which is much more loose and uh conducive to just doing whatever you want whenever you want um so i it was honestly it was such a hard decision to leave the show but i sort of needed to pivot in that moment um yeah and sort of set myself up to be able to work on features while um while having a family which now i have two two children and i write features from home so it's it worked out yeah um but it was such a it was really a lot of soul searching because i i had always envisioned that i would be on the show till the end and um loved you know every minute of it and it just i sort of knew that i needed to set my life up that i could be in charge of my own schedule and and not necessarily be in a room and on set as much and um kind of focus on on building my own family and it's working you guys yeah the family it's working and the films are you're doing all right the things are happening it's it's good things are happening great i'm not sleeping but things are happening how old are how old are the babies right now um i have a three-year-old girl and a six-month-old boy congratulations thank you uh brandon right brandon give him give him my love um send us a picture so i can see your babies if you want like is there any films that are out actively or anything coming out in the near future that you want to tell people about so that it can stay up on black vera that's what i need for them list last summer in july i had a film come out called the map that leads to you that's a your europe trip romantic drama um that was very fun uh to go to europe and make yes um and other than that just developing something that hopefully uh maybe there'll be news on soon and is black vera the greatest nickname that's ever been given to anyone she's like i haven't heard that it's my favorite i mean it's much better than white vera yeah way better way better he wants to be called white anything not these days ladies and gentlemen this was our chat with one of our favorite writers from the show her name is vera herbert but lovingly affectionately i call her black vera we miss you we love you congratulations thank you for taking the time on a saturday yes talk to us i love chatting with you guys you rock you rock sister thank you those babies yeah go back to those i sure will we'll see you wow so we got to have a little conversation with vera herbert there that was great i haven't seen her in years like she said uh i was at k's wedding and there's a few writers there and it was good to see her then but like when you have people who you see like on a daily basis or on a regular basis in your life for years and then they're gone you're like oh man i want to see whoever it is which is the joy of being here with you guys right now i couldn't agree more i love y'all i love you love this episode so you want to do it look into your camera man tell them the name of the show that was us that was us is filmed at rabbit grin studios and produced by rabbit grin productions music by taylor goldsmith and griffin goldsmith that was us that was a hate gum podcast i hate mondays king's hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite taylor hansen sure i'll try one hey let's get back to work please but taylor hansen's making my day way better with these 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