The News You’re Not Getting (and Why) with Amy Goodman

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To check out their mattress and furniture sale, AvocadoGreenMatrus.com/TWS. AvocadoGreenMatrus.com/TWS. Period. Folks, you know, I am nothing if not a generator of ideas that may never work. Obviously we've talked a little bit on the show about the crumple, which is the portable dog bed that you throw on the ground that makes a different topographical shape each time you do it, or maybe I'll make an app. Maybe I'm always thinking of different apps, or maybe I'll make an app that helps people create and run their great business ideas. Oh, wait, I don't need to do that because it's already existing. Shopify. Somebody probably sat around having a Shopify idea about an app that would help people bring their ideas to fruition like the crumple. And then they made that. And the damn things brilliant. It makes the whole process easy. Everything you need. It's easy to design your shop. It's easy to get paid. They handle the checkout process. 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We are apparently involved in a ceasefire that involves bombing of the countries that haven't taken our boats. Nothing has any meaning anymore. It's slowly unraveling and slipping away from us to the point where a literal king has to show up in our Congress and go, what the fuck is the matter with you people? Obviously, that is not the tone of voice that he took because he's a king, I believe. What he said was, what the fuck is the matter with you? Something along those lines. But he had to remind them, you remember your whole thing was to defeat us so that you could have freedom and function through the consent of the government and we're slowly unraveling that. And the guardrails that are put in place are nowhere to be found, including the 4th of state. And that's why I'm so excited to be talking to somebody who actually has been on the ramparts of that fight for low these past 30 years and does such a public good and a service and her courage and bravery and relentlessness are just wonderful examples to set for the next general British and people who want to come out and tell real stories about what's really going on in the world. So Amy Goodman, the fabulous Amy Goodman. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct pleasure and honor today to welcome to the program Amy Goodman, who is the host and executive producer of Democracy Now and has just a fabulous film out that is, I think, a wonderful tribute but also insight into the incredible work that Amy has done throughout all these years. It's called 'Steel This Story' Please. It's in the theaters now across the country to find a theater. Just visit stealthisstory.org. Always.org. Amy, it's always.org with you. It's not.com. You're not a corporate individual. You're a dot org individual. That's right. I'm not calm either, but I do want to say that it's not my film. Yup, it's about Democracy Now, the 30 years, but the directors Carl Diel and TLSN are a big deal. They're Oscar nominated for their film on Hurricane Katrina, 'Trouble the Water', Tia just won three Emmys for the James, which is about the underground abortion network in Chicago in the '60s. They were Michael Moore's producers years ago. They did 'Citizen Coke'. So they're amazing and they decided to do this film. So what, you know, to have two Oscar nominated stalkers in your life? No. You deserve more. And you know, it's very interesting because in that moment, I think we've established the difference between Amy Goodman and John Stewart. I give information, and then Amy gives the correct information. And that in many ways sums up the careers. I have to tell you, Amy, you know, I am a just long time admirer of what you do. Whenever my frustrations over, you know, what we consider mainstream news and the criticism that I have, it always sort of, it comes back to, I mean, look at Amy Goodman. Look what Amy Goodman does. Why can't they do that? And it strikes me that it's because the access that you work under and you tell me if this is even mildly accurate, they seem to focus on right left. You seem to focus on power, no power, voice, no voice. And is that what makes it, is that what grounds it and makes the work so essential? I mean, that's what democracy now is all about is to go to where the silence is. And it's often not silent, you know, I mean, it's raucous. It's rowdy. People are organizing. We're really about covering movements because movements are what make history or covering the people closest to the story. I mean, we don't bring you the same pundits that you see on every network show who knows so little about so much explaining the world to us and getting it so wrong. But the people who are at the heart of the story. As my colleague, Nermeen Sheikh says, the co-host of Democracy Now in still the story, please, you know, the media is this frame and Democracy Now widens that frame because usually the media really erases so many voices. And we take the people outside the frame, bring them in and not only bring them in, but we center them. And you know, John, those people are not a fringe minority. I mean, I really do know those who care about war and peace, those who care about the climate catastrophe. That's right. Those who care about the immigrant crackdown about reproductive rights, those who care about inequality are not a fringe minority, not even a silent majority, but the silenced majority silenced by the corporate media, which is why we have to take it back. And it's incredible how, you know, you bring up such a, I think an interesting point about there is a prototype or a boilerplate that modern media follows. And I understand television has to be producible. But where it's, you know, we give a brief, a bit of information. And then the rest of the time is filled out by people who don't really have firsthand experience or witness experience, your work and democracy now's work feels like you get the information, not the analysis, that so much of media now is just easily produced shallow analysis. But the information is what's actually crucial and necessary to expose these stories. Well, you know, they took the motto of democracy now, the directors steal the story, please, because I consider an exclusive a failure, like if no one picks it up. That's really a problem. I, we want it to reverberate out, because who are we covering? I mean, in the film, you have our coverage of the standoff at Standing Rock, right? We're indigenous people standing in Raksu and North Dakota. We're joined by indigenous people from Latin America, First Nations, from Canada, and then many non-native allies. You know, they thought maybe a couple dozen people would come to help them fight the Dakota Axis pipeline, but thousands came. So we were even late to the story. We were covering it from New York. That's where we broadcast democracy now from, but we only went out there in Labor Day of 2016. Now, that is a really important year because that's when Trump first ran, right? He president, Donald Trump ran against Hillary Clinton in the presidential debates. Not only didn't the moderators bring up this epic gathering, but they didn't bring up climate change. That's why people were there. They were really scared that the pipeline, which would go under the extremely long Missouri river, could bust, could break, and could hurt the water supply of millions downstream. So we followed one day when they were protesting bulldozers coming on to their sacred burial site, six bulldozers. They stood in front of them, these earth crushing machines, girls, women, boys, men, and then the machines pulled back. And then the DAPO, Dakota Axis pipeline security guards, released dogs on the protesters. And we filmed a dog with its mouth and nose covered blood, so we released that video online. And within 24 hours, there were 14 million views. It really showed, you know, when I go into the networks, when I invited in to CNN, MSNBC, which is now MSNBC, I would say to the host, why don't you cover climate change more? And they'd say the executives upstairs, they say that, you know, eyes will roll, that they won't get enough eyeballs. But this gave the lie. Any executive would roll for that number of views. And then the networks won after another, pick this story up. President Obama, I think, was enlaused for some historic trip, and he held a democracy forum with students, and one of them said, hey, what about that video of the dogs fighting the protesters? Wow. And I heard that when he came back to Washington, he saw the video, and it wasn't lost on the first African American president, what it meant to sick dogs on protesters. I mean, steal this story, please take the story. And people don't see these stories. It really is a tree falls in the forest, and if nobody is there to hear it, they don't. But you are wandering the forest, recording these trees falling. There's a great moment in the film, and I say, great meaning illustrative, not great, in that it was awful. You're in Indonesia. And. East Seymour. East Seymour. And American weapons are being used by the army to slaughter protesters. You're there. You're filming it. And I think they said in the film, this had been going on for 17 years, or something along those lines. Indonesia invaded East Seymour December 7, 1975, 90% of the weapons they used were from the United States. The army was trained, financed, and armed by the United States. And you know, isn't it amazing that the entire American population, probably most people never heard of, maybe they heard a ball, but not East Seymour, and yet we were connected to them by the barrel of a gun. So I went there to East Seymour in November of 1991, with my colleague, Alan Nairn, who was writing for the New Yorker. And on this day, November 12, 1991, the people of East Seymour were protesting the killing of yet another young person, East Seymour. He had been killed on the steps of the church. Everyone was taking refuge in the Catholic churches of Seymour because for the first time, the UN had sent a delegation that would investigate the human rights situation. They were going to send. So everyone was dropping out of school and working, going into the churches so they'd be protected to speak. But then we later learned, at the behest of the US, the UN delegation didn't come. And so on this day, thousands of tumouries came out to the church for communion. The priests held it under the trees because there were so many. And then they marched to the cemetery, and we followed them. And this is unheard of at the time and occupied teamwork when there was no freedom of speech, no freedom of assembly, no freedom of protest. They marched and they marched to the cemetery where so many young people were buried. And that's when we saw the Indonesian army armed with USM-16s marching up. Alan and I always held hid our equipment when we were talking to people because if they were to talk to journalists, they could be arrested, killed, disappeared. Now I took out my tape recorder, I slung it over my shoulder. I held up my microphone like a flag. Alan put the camera above his head and we walked to the front of the crowd. We knew the Indonesian army had committed many massacres in the past, but never in front of Western journalists, maybe we could head off this attack. They marched up 10 to 12 abreast. They came around the corner. People couldn't escape because there were walls of the cemetery and either side of the road. They marched around the corner without hesitation, without provocation, without warning. They swept past us and they just opened fire on the crowd, ultimately killing over 270 timmeries on that day. A group of them surrounded us. They were shouting Australia, Australia. They wanted to know if we were from Australia, which is like two or three hundred miles away. And we understood what that meant. When Indonesia first invaded, there was a group of Australian journalists with Australian broadcasting corporation ABC and they lined them up against a house and they executed them. The Australian government hardly protested the killing of their journalists. We believe because years later, Indonesia and Australia would divide up the oil spoils and the team were gaps. So we wanted to make clear we were not from Australia. And as they beat me to the ground, Alan threw himself on top of me to protect me. And they beat him with the gongs as well. And until they use them like bats, the USM-16s, until they fractured his skull. As we lay there in the ground, they then put the guns to our heads and we just kept saying America. I threw my passport at them. It said United States of America, America, America, finally they pulled the guns from our heads. We believe because we were from the same country their weapons were from. They would have to pay a price for killing us if they never had to pay for killing the timmeries. And we understood at that moment, we in order to stop this killing, we had to get out of the country to report it to the outside world because only outside pressure would stop this. Mint mobile, I don't know what you want out of a phone company. What I want out of a phone company is, deliver me a good product for less and don't bother me. Don't bother me with the like, oh, have you heard about our new program? You can upgrade to it. It'll just cost you a lot more. 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The nexus of corporate power and military might and all these different things. There's another and I hate to walk you through some of the events of the film, but I think it lays out a good foundation for kind of some of the things we'll talk about later. Again, another example of you on the ground is in Nigeria, I believe, and Chevron, which sends helicopters of Nigerian soldiers to shoot people. And you, and I don't know where you get the wherewithal to do it, just go right up to the Nigerian Chevron building and go, hey, I'm an American. May I come in? Well, you know, I was so inspired. This was years ago by this incredible Nigerian writer and activist named Ken Sarawiwa. He was a gonie from a gonie land in the Niger Delta and he threw his lot in with the Nigerian people and he knew with his prestige she could go outside the country and tell the world. Nigeria is Africa's most populous country and Chevron and Shell were operating in the Niger Delta disempowering so many Nigerians to give power to the rest of the world. And he came into our studio in New York at WBAI and I didn't think we had time they just said he's here and I said, oh my god, our show is booked and they said he's here for one day. Okay, two minutes and he came on and he talked about how these large multinational corporations depend on brutal dictatorships in order to suppress the population. And that's what he described and I said, well, what about you? Where does this leave you? And he said, I am a marked man and he went back to Nigeria and he was ultimately executed with eight other activists. He had been taking on shell corporation, but we decided after Ken was killed, I decided I had to go to investigate the situation in the Niger Delta. And so I looked along with my colleague Jeremy Skahill who worked at democracy now and I'm now found to drop set news. Did great war reporting as well. Yeah, we went to investigate what was happening in the Niger Delta and we found that Chevron had flown in the Nigerian military. The people in that area described they said we recognize the Chevron helicopters. The mobile police were called the kill and go. That's the kill and go and they were protesting the Nigerian military moved in and they killed two of the young men they critically wounded a third and they arrested others. And so, you know, I said we have to go to Chevron headquarters and ask them about this and that's when we went to headquarters to speak to the chief spokesperson. Mind blowing. They have it on tape. It's unbelievable in its honesty and and it's outright. He is just forthcoming and direct. Oh yeah, no Chevron. Yeah, no, we hired the helicopters and we sent the military. The guy just lays it out. And I said exactly who authorized it. I said who walks right he said that would be Chevron's management. I mean, it's it's it's a shocking example of and it gets to the broader question when I think about what my kind of ideal of journalistic integrity or efficacy is it's that. And why is it you know, you say when you go to these places into corporate environments or CNN or MS now all these different places, they always say to you, hey man, I really wish we could do that and you're like you're fucking reporters like you not only can you do it. You have more resources than Amy Goodman will ever have you can do it. You're on 24 hours a day. But I do I want to say when it comes to I don't even call them mainstream, by the way, because you know, I really do think that those who care about all of these issues from climate changed corporate power to war. Or mainstream, I think that's the mainstream, but I think a lot of good people go into the corporate networks because they think they have a broad platform where they can report important issues. But they are the first ones now and you know, we just celebrated 30 years of democracy now, but they you know early on they would say give us a break now those very same reporters who may not be working for the networks or for example for the Washington Post with Jeff Bezos's paper who just laid off a third of the newsroom hundreds of reporters. They're saying you can't say this loud enough and I just want to say we had this 30th anniversary and oh my god, John, I wish you were there. But you know, I don't leave the house, right? You know, I don't leave the house Amy. I just want to point that out. I would have gone. You're just like a hologram. You don't really exist. I pretty much a hologram. That's pretty true. Well, we were Riverside Church. This historic place where Dr. King gave his speech April 4, 1967, a year to the day before he was assassinated in Memphis, the speech against the Vietnam War. And at the time, the corporate media, I have the life magazine issue that castigated. He said the United States is the greatest purveyor of violence on earth. And they said he did a disservice to his cause, his country, his people. They said his speech read like a script out of radio, Hanoi. And he just doubled down because he connected militarism, racism and materialism. And he just kept at it. So we went to this church, 2,000 people packed in. Oh, we actually had it February 23, but then there was that one day snow McGueden. And we had to cancel it 2,000 people. So one thing that can stop Amy Goodman is 18 inches of snow. Can't get uptown. It was the fear that someone would slip who came to see us. So March 23. Oh, Juan González flew in from Chicago. We've done democracy now together for 30 years. The great journalist who used to be at the Daily News. He had that DN. And he had this DN. He did some great 9/11 stuff. Juan González, that just you know, John, you know because of the great work. Juan González is, but he is, he was spectacular and doing it for a paper that was like, Hey, I think this might get us in trouble. As soon he was behind hits. At first, he was on the front page talking about the benzene, the chemicals and all the shit that was in the air, that's right. And he slowly was moved to behind the refrigerator ads. His editor was fired. But still he kept at it and once done such great work right back to you know, he was one of the founders of the young lords, like the equivalent of the Puerto Rican Black Panthers. And in New York City, he talked about, and he said on in the film, steal the story, please, how they understood very quickly, they have to frame their own narrative. They had like hijacked ambulances and tuberculosis testing trucks to come up to Spanish Harlem and places where they were really needed, but they had to tell their story and the network newscasters, you know, on ABC and BC CBS, they said it is amazing how they make downtown white New York tremble, but what they're doing, they have such popularity, but they had a newspaper called Palante ever forward. You know, those reporters became some of the leading reporter, those young lords became some leading reporters in New York. But so one flew in and he talked about the importance of independent media, then. Her rate for the riff rap, a great group sang their song, Palante, like for the newspaper, and then Michael Stipe of R.E.M. He sang, Nermine Shaikh gave her speech. Right. Patty Smith sang Peaceful Kingdom. What a celebration. The great Palestinian poet who is such a beautiful man, Pulitzer Prize for his essays in the New Yorker read his poem. under the rubble. And then I was trying to figure out how do we end this 30 years as we move into the next century of democracy. Now, I see someone in the audience. The boss Bruce brings the fuck that come on. And he came up and he sang the string of Minneapolis. And then all together, the musicians sang Paddy's iconic people have the power. And that's really the theme of democracy now over the last years. Yes, President Trump, any US president occupies the most powerful office on earth. But there is a force more powerful. Right. And it is. People everywhere in the streets talking around the water cooler organizing in their workplaces or being fired or laid off from them. That force involved with social change, you know, if you build a foundation, you never know when that magic moment comes. But if you build that foundation, you will help to direct the future to make history. And those are the movements we cover. But Amy, the people have to be armed with information with the information that they don't that the dots have to be connected. And you know, the one thing that they always say, and it's such a strange formulation of what journalism should be. They always say, well, you're, you're not a journalist. Amy, you're an activist. And I don't understand how any journalist. And by the way, I think it's because they think activism is a partisan endeavor, but activism in the service of anti corruption or in the service of justice or in the service of amplification of voices that don't get to go is exactly what then what is journal journalism is not narration. It's not a security camera in the 7-11 that's just capturing images. What you've infused and what democracy now always did so well is you infused the passion and the activism for justice not partisan. There's a great scene of film Bill Clinton calls into your program. It's the election 2000 was it. Yeah. And it's election day. And so Amy gets a chance. Bill Clinton, he's just calling a bunch of people, you know, it's called democracy now. It's just another constituency. She lays out some of the best and decisive questions to the point where like Bill Clinton, you can, you don't see him because he's on the phone, but you can imagine that Clinton has almost, you know, the cartoon that plimped in might draw of Clinton of just his face getting red like, you're being rude, young lady. Stop asking me these questions. It's such a great moment that it absolutely I think illuminates what happens when independent activist anti corruption media meets power. I mean, we were just doing our job as journalists to hold those in power to come right. He called into WBAI where democracy now was based. And he was calling dozens of radio stations to get out the vote. And of course, when they called, it was like minutes before the show started. And they said, you know, the lighthouse calling. And I thought they said the white horse was calling the tower and right in the village. Right. Right. We're Dylan Thomas drank himself. They get a little flat. I'll see right in there. Right this little booth. And so I said, they said the white horse. They said the president would like to speak to you. I said the president of what? And they said the president of the United States. I said, oh my god, the white house, not the white horse, but he's calling. And I thought, even still, I thought this was a fake call, but it did give them the internal number. I said, whatever if he wants to call in call during democracy now, that hour. And so it was election day, we were going up to get coffee because we'd be there all night. Who knew that we'd have to be there for five weeks, but the next show as we're walking out the way of alternative of the Latino music show. Follow screams, Amy, get in here. The president of the United States is on the phone because he called into the station. So I ran in and me and get solo did this interview with his producer and my two producers and, you know, people wait for their journalist wait for their whole lives to speak with the president of the United States. We had all of zero time to prepare for this interview. And I said, I understand you're calling people to get out the vote. And he said something. And I said, well, people are wondering, why should they vote? How does their power compare to corporations? And then I asked him about taking the Democratic party to the right. Yeah. And he got upset boy, he didn't cut the welfare by half. And that's going to and we've got the highest employment. And he just went and she really got cheated. Part, you don't see in the film. I asked him about whether he would be granting clemency to Leonard Peltier, who was the Native American leader who'd been in jail for decades. He said he was weighing it. Well, 25 years later, Biden in his last minutes in office released Leonard Peltier. And I just went to the Native American reservation where he is in North Dakota. But I also asked him about sanctions about against Iraq, killing so many people. And he got so frustrated that I find you hostile, combative or times disrespect. I said, I'm just asking you critical question. I asked about Israel, Palestine. Finally, he said he had to go. And that was fine. And I went into the office and the White House called me and not the White House, the White House. And they said, you know, they were weighing banning me from the White House. And I said, what are you talking about? He called me. I didn't call him. And then they said, we told you he had a few minutes. You kept him on the phone for over half an hour. I said, he's the leader of the free world. He could hang up if he wants to. That's exactly right. And you know what? And he can also answer a couple of questions. The company has a lot of work to do and we are working on the Shopify store. The Shopify store has a lot of work to do and we are working on the Shopify store. the access of evil, right? The access of evil. Trading truth for access is not worth it. The questions you're going to ask for that access, those softball questions. I mean, you saw a few years after the massacre. I was at the White House questioning Mike McCurray, Clinton's spokesperson. And it was at a time when amazingly, for the first time, Congress was cutting off, had cut off military training aid to Indonesia. I've been coughing since 9/11, too. No, I know. I know. I'm familiar with that cough. You know, well, you better be on the program. Are you on the program? Amy, there's a yoga program. I'm looking at it. Yeah. Get on that program. But I'm the massacre. So I asked Mike McCurray, you know, he was talking about its president, Clinton's 21st wedding anniversary with his bride. The reporters were asking about golf clubs that he used. And so I said, is he really going to be restoring military aid to Indonesia? And he wouldn't quite answer my question. And when I really pursued it, I said, some are saying that it's like this was at the time. This was what 1995, 1996, giving weapons to Saddam Hussein. And he's and Karmakurray said, we don't see it that way. We see it as serving the national interest, which is just astonishing. We're killing a third of the population of East Timor, one of the great genocides of the late 20th century. And when I was pushing that, he said the turnip is dry. And all the reporters, many of the reporters in the room giggled and laughed with him. And it's that kind of not only trading truth for access, but it's a kind of peer pressure. And this is not worth it. I mean, politicians need journalists, more than journalists need politicians. Our job is to do our job. It's not to win a popularity contest. There's a reason why the freedom of the press is enshrined in the U.S. Constitution and the First Amendment, because ultimately it's about the public's right to know. And we can't have a meaningful democracy unless people have information. But what we have, Amy, is the theater of a democracy. It's a show. I can't say how often I watch these the daily press briefing where they put on a play for the American audience and Caroline Levitt, or whoever is in that position, whether it was Mike McCurry in those days or everything, comes out and lies pretty much the whole time. And the journalists sit there and they've been cast, I guess, as the peanut gallery. And occasionally they'll get off a good question, but you're right. They don't cooperate with each other. They're all combating each other for a certain access or trying to make their name. And this theater of the absurd as though that press briefing is illumination in any form. It's not. Well, you know, remember when Newt Gingrich was House Speaker, he would hold the day he established this sort of this. Well, he would hold a press briefing every day. And he got extremely frustrated with my questions. According to a big piece in the Washington Post, he ended it because of my questions. Oh, really? But I did. They do capture this wasn't at press briefing, but they do capture the moment I had with Newt Gingrich. It was at the Republican convention. And his mom had just done an interview with Connie Chung, where she said that new to her son at Call the First Lady of Bitch. That was Hillary Clinton. And so I went up to Gingrich. I mean, his words matter. He's House Speaker. And I said, Mr. Speaker, will you apologize to American women for calling the First Lady of Bitch? And he said something like I never said what you said I said. And I said, are you calling your mother a liar then? Okay. And that's when he went, no, she's a bitch. She's not a liar. Oh, God. She's getting me in trouble. But, you know, it's our job to ask the questions. But it doesn't get done. And it, or it's scripted. And so it gives you the illusion of information. And that I really do think that's the difference. And I'm wondering what you, how does it get captured? Why does it get captured? Because like you said, a lot of them are really good people. A lot of them are committed. How does it end up as this kabuki theater? Well, I mean, I think, and I think you should ask some of them, but I think they know how to rise in the corporate media ladder. And when you start saying, I want to go cover that protest, you keep getting sidelined. And you'd say, well, I went to the White House press briefing, but they wouldn't call on me. This isn't good for them. And so instead, you ask a question that will allow you to ask a question the next day. But I mean, for us, then you just have to be outside. And look at the Pentagon reporters. They did something interesting when they were told recently by Secretary Hegseth that they had to sign an oath that they would not release classified information without the Pentagon's approval. Interestingly, across the political spectrum, a lot of them said no. So they were outside the Pentagon. Then, and then in that case, that's where they need to be. A judge just ruled not once, but twice that that demand is unconstitutional. You have a P refusing to say Gulf of America. They say Gulf of Mexico. I thought they could compromise. They could say Gulf of America. He just, if you'd say with the accent, it's halfway. It's meeting halfway. Amy, it's a fine solution. How do we unravel that symbiotic relationship where Washington is this nexus now of corporate power? It's kind of a self-propagating machine. As you see, they deregulate, let's say, tech and create trillions of dollars of wealth that flow towards these five individuals that we, the gods that will decide our future, and then those individuals will filter back into the political system, tens and hundreds of millions of dollars to keep those people in scanced in power. And the media around it is also feeding out of the same trough. It's this. I mean, they're owned by the same right? You've got Washington Post owned by the billionaire Amazon founder, Jeff Bezos. And what does he do? He pays $40 million for the Melania documentary, and apparently another $35 million to push it. But that's $40 million giving it to Trump. And at the same time, he is slicing the newsroom by hundreds of reporters. I think both are Korean favor. And now, apparently, Amazon is talking about reviving the apprentice. And it'll be Donald Trump Jr. who will be the star of that. And they own the press. And that's why these corporate mergers are such an enormous problem with the Ellisons, with you have them owning Paramount Sky Dance. Sure. They just bought us. And now they want to buy CNN Warner Brothers Discovery CNN and HBO. That's right. CNN, HBO, all those things. But how do you? If there is a media industrial complex, and I think there is where it's kind of this revolving door where everybody's eating out of the same trough. Independent media is the answer yet why doesn't independent media grow in that same way? Like what grows is this sort of podcast universe like this, where we're just analyzing things. But they're not doing the work that you guys do, which is information gathering. We have a model of listener viewer reader support. We started what a 30 years ago on nine Pacifica radio and community stations. We thought we'd end after the election. It was the only daily election shown public broadcasting in 96. But there was such a demand for it after that we continued. So more and more stations picked us up at some NPR stations as well. Then 9/11 happened. We were at that firehouse downtown television. You were right in the thick of it. And one TV station in New York, Manhattan neighborhood network public access had a link to that community media center. They started broadcasting us his emergency broadcasting public access TV stations around the country started asking for the show. Then PBS stations, then NPR stations. And now we're at about 1500 public radio and television stations around the country and around the world. By the way, public access is also under assault right now. But even NPR and PBS backed away from you guys for certain stories, fearing the loss of funding. And for us, we had such a strong global supporter base from 30 years ago, you have to understand we couldn't afford anything. And the intertubes, it was right around the time of the intertubes coming into being right. So democracy now dot org. It was before the word podcast. And we put up the MP3 and radio stations. That's how they could take it for free. The other networks could pay to have satellites to put it out. We couldn't. But because we put it on at democracy now dot org, then people would transcribe it immediately. Someone in Mexico, someone in Montana, someone in Michigan, segment one, two and three, the our transcription coordinator put it all together every day. The transcription will be there right away to this day. Most shows don't put their transcript up. And then network reporters, interestingly, would take those transcripts to the greenhouse, to the Pentagon, to the state department. And it would be based on their questions. Real people closest to the story, not the know nothing, pundits. And that's what we call trickle up journalism. But it grew so fast because of that we put total information online. Do you think it's your training Amy in, you know, there's a there's a different aesthetic. When you're dealing with radio news, you know, your your background in radio before because it's it's an interesting transition that you guys made from radio and B.A.I and all those things to television. But you never lost, you know, a lot of television focuses on it's a visual medium. And unless we have tape, you guys always seem to have remembered your aesthetic from radio. And it's a different way of telling stories. You're absolutely right. I mean, and it's a more imaginative media. Yes. And so we were on that. And I was before democracy now on that. Well, let me just tell the story of Pacifico, which is amazing. 1949, founded by a war resistor named Lou Hill, who came out of the detention camps in Berkeley, California. They established KPFA in 1949. Oh, I didn't know that was that was done literally. from someone who had been in turn in World War II. Yes, and then K.P.F.K. and Los Angeles, 1959, when on the air, my station, W.B.A.I. 1960, W.P.F.W. in Washington, 1977. But the fourth station was K.P.F.T. in Houston, and in the Petro Metro. It goes on the air in the spring of 1970. Within weeks, it's blown up by the Ku Klux Klan. They strap dynamite to the base of the transmitter. K.P.F.T. rebuilds themselves quickly, and in a few weeks, they go back on. And the Klan straps 15 times the dynamite to the base of the transmitter. And right in the middle of Arla Guthrie singing Alice's Rest Run, which I thought was a good song. They blew it up again. It's a good song. It's just very long, and that's probably what happened. So then it takes months for K.P.F.T. to rebuild. And in January of 1971, Arlo comes back to Houston to finish his song on the air, and yes, it might have taken a long time. And K.P.F.T. is back on their feet. I can't remember if it was the grand dragon or the exalted cyclops, because I often confuse their titles. It's very hard to tell them apart sometimes, because if you've got to look at the hoods, it's like one of them has like a rinquist hood that has like little bars on it or something. But he said it was his proudest act. That's because he understood how dangerous specific it is. How dangerous independent media is. Dangerous because it allows people to speak for themselves. And when you hear a Palestinian child or an Israeli grandmother, when you hear an Iranian uncle or aunt in Afghanistan, like that Iranian uncle might remind you of your uncle, and you might not like your uncle. But it makes you much less likely to want to destroy him. You cannot caricature, stereotype him anymore, and that is what fuels the hate groups. I think the media can be the greatest force for peace on earth, instead all too often it is wielded as a weapon of war, which is why we have to take the media back. Yes. And manufacturing consent to create a narrative, because that's more interesting. I always felt that that was part of what happened in Iraq is there is a certain within the corporate media environment that is wars more interesting than not war. And it's a good story and it's a build up and they almost create the kind of, I'm not saying they create the war, but they do create a kind of lubricant for the war that allows it to, they take some of the friction out of the, the, the tube. I mean, absolutely, in a time of war, the media tends to circle the wagons around the White House. Look at what President Trump said this past weekend. He said, if you question the war, I think he said, if you say that the US is losing the war or not winning the war, that is treason. Hexeth called them the Pharisees that, I mean, he went, he went biblical that if you were to question their decisions, you're literally against God. Forget about even America. And this is such an enormous problem. I mean, when you look at Iraq, I mean, what did Iraq have to do with 9/11? Of course not. But there are commonalities from Timor to Iraq to Venezuela to Iran, three letters, oil. And you know, I'm not saying it's the only reason. Right. They understood this with Iraq. Remember, didn't they call originally the invasion of the U.S. called the invasion of Iraq operation, Iraqi liberation? Yeah. And they realized that the acronym was oil, so they changed it to operation, freedom. They couldn't do that. They understood it. Even they knew that was too far that they would do that. Have you ever felt like that stories that you had done had been utilized for the wrong purposes? Were there any situations where you felt like you walked into a situation and regretted putting something out there? In an independent, what are the safeguards that independent media has on things like that? I mean, it's a good question. And I think of times if someone has taken hostage, if someone in different countries, the family doesn't want to put out word right away. I may hear about it and they're terrified that they'll be killed right away. I, in most cases, would not defy that. If someone felt that someone's life was at stake at that moment, I mean, it's just though so important to hear people describe their own experience. And if they care to have someone close to them, I was just thinking about a woman name. At the end of still a story, please, I mean, TN Coral did an incredible job, but they continued to add to the film until now and now it's out all over the country. A woman in Minneapolis, I mean, the people of Minneapolis have taught us so much that's people across the political spectrum because it's about community and about not capitulating in advance to things. Right. And, you know, if an immigrant family is afraid to go out and buy groceries, people would buy groceries for them afraid to take their kid to school, walk their kid to school. But I was thinking of all your ramen. She is an autistic disabled woman who is on her way to the doctor. An official immigration agent stopped her smash her window as she shouts to them as they drag her out of the car, cutting her seatbelt. I'm disabled. I'm disabled. They say too effing late except they use the forward like President Trump does. So they drag her out. They injure her seriously. She's taken to the Whipple detention center. She doesn't know what's happened. When she gets out, we interview her. And then Ilhan Omar, the congress member from Minneapolis, invites her to the state of the union address. You know, they can each get a guest. Ilhan Omar, the only Somali refugee congresswoman who President Trump calls garbage. Right. He goes to hope Somali community and Minneapolis. Community. No, he's, he's denigrated the entire community. Oh, my God. So she goes to the state of the union, Ali Aramun. She's a U.S. citizen and I hate to even qualify this by saying she's a U.S. citizen as it. If you're not a U.S. citizen. Then you can be treated however they want to treat you. Right. Exactly. So she goes and she's in the gallery where all of the guests are and she's between some police chief and some mayor of two different towns that others had invited. And she's there and she's sitting. And President Trump's giving that longest speech ever of a state of the union. And the Republicans are standing, applauding, making noise sitting. And you know, if it was a Democratic president, it would have been the other way Democrats would have been standing up and down, standing, roaring, sitting down, applauding. And then he starts to denigrate the people of Minneapolis and she stands up in quiet witness. She stands there. She has a cane. She stands there. Security takes her out. They take her down. Once she's already injured from Minneapolis, we had invited her on the next day, not knowing any of this. We wanted to ask what's it like to be there at state of the union after this happened to you in Minneapolis? She is taken to jail. And she gets out four in the morning, she comes on democracy now and she says, I am wearing the same clothes that I wore to the state of the union because I was arrested, I was taken down. It was like a supervisor had to say to the agents who took her out, what are you doing? And she came on democracy now. And it's so important though. It's Amy. It's so and it's and Minneapolis is a great example of that because what you see is they lie about things that happen. And so if you don't have witness, if people don't have the courage like this woman to stand up or the footage like they had in the case of Renee Good and Alex Pretty, this is what they lie about when we have witnesses and cameras, imagine what they lie about when we don't have that. Exactly. And so all of you, they have that video and then here because she told her own story and much now, New York Times takes it, Washington Post, the networks take it. That's the idea of this story, please, please, please. Thank you. Käsin tehtyjä artesaanitua teitä myyvän jäuiin lahjakaupan perustaja. Valitisin Shopify, koska alustoja testatessani totesin sen ehdottomasti yhdeksi helpokäyttöisimmistä alustoista. Minulla oli tärkeää pohtia kehittymistämme tulevaisuudessa. Kaikki myyntiin tarvittavat työkaluut, kuten varaston suunnittelu ovat kätivästi dashboardissa. Aloita ilmainen kokeilu Shopify piste komsi vustolla. Katsotaan suunnittelu, että minulla on tärkeää. Katsotaan järjestelmä. Hienoa tärkeää. WAA Morgan State. a reflection of you sitting around with your your mom and dad who you sound like incredible people and they were incredible and and sort of three brothers and practicing. I was thinking of the one who ran David's press who ran that's Dave's press. My he writes books with me. He's a right journalist in Vermont, but it really it's grounded in a kind of a familial warmth and love of criticism, discussion, openness, honesty. And even after we have vicious fights, we still love each other. But it's it's and you've you've you've taken that aesthetic and infused it into this really incredible media entity. Well, to yet I mean that is the power of the voices. I mean, they I bask in their glow. But just to say with that image, seeing it as a huge kitchen table or we debate the key issues, anything less than that is a disservice to the service men and women of this country because they can't have these public debates on military bases about whether they're sent to kill or be killed. Anything less than that is a disservice to a democratic society. I couldn't agree more and I think the moral foundation of what you do has to be infused into news organizations where it's corporate or not. And I think the people in those organizations have more power than they believe that they do. And they have to start taking that back. You know, as you look at the future of independent media and, you know, sort of democracy stands as kind of a linchpin of it and a real guiding force for people and a light. Is there a future for it that is, you know, benefactor driven? Is there a a base dose but for independence that carries it through? I think it comes out of community and the support has to come from the community. It's always got to come out of that community, right? I mean, because ultimately look, I mean, Bayzo spies the Washington Post. No one knew what he would do with it. But during that time, they developed that slogan democracy dies in darkness, which is true. But look, it's very dark at the Washington Post right now. I was going to say, and they're the ones who who had the dimmer switch and they're the ones that were pulling it. Amy, I just want to thank you for for spending the time with us. I'm such an admirer and the work that you've done over all these years is just it's legendary. And so we so appreciate you and all the people that are behind the scenes that work so hard, although I have to say you do more with less than any organization of your ilk that I have ever seen in my life. Well, my colleagues are my inspiration. Yeah, it's fantastic. So Amy Goodman hosts an executive producer of democracy now, and the movie is steal this story. Please go to steal this story.org and find out where it's playing and go check it out because it's incredibly moving and incredibly inspiring. And I appreciate you. So thank you for talking to us. Thank you so much. Hope to see folks at the movie theater. Absolutely. See you soon. Amy Goodman. I loved that. So good. She's so good. She's you know what's crazy though is when you realize the amount of work that they're doing like three of them. It's literally I was shocked by that in the documentary. Stunned. Yeah. There's there's a great one of like a documentary that she's putting together and she's literally editing herself while she's on the air. She's slicing the tape. It's amazing. I saw that storyline on like the first episode of newsroom and I was like that would never happen. And then I see it in this dog actually happening like oh shit. It's amazing. She is next level. I just I am fan-girling from a journalist perspective. She really gave journalists like me the courage and the permission to avoid the pressures that the industry puts on people. And we've talked about some of those like you know trying to write the click-baitiest article so that you can get a bonus or achieve internet glory with the sexiest of more stories let's say. But I don't know. She really stands out as someone who reports the story that she doesn't see and wants told. And a little like interesting side is that I was a former national security reporter and I would write stories that I knew would not get clicks. And one of them were like 10 years ago was about how the American Psychological Association voted to ban its members from participating in national security interrogations after what we know. Yes. And it went fine. Like I got this great story that didn't see elsewhere and then it vanished and then a little bit later in her 20th anniversary book it was cited and she had a whole section about people and the power that they have. And so I just think it kind of brings it full circle of eyes a journalist have power. These individuals have power and together you have even more power to create the reality you want to live in. That's awesome. Lauren that's beautiful. Can I ask you a question about that because it does I would imagine that most young people and when I say young people I'm talking about Jillian Lauren and Brittany. Most young people go into that business because it's a calling because they feel an obligation they're drawn to issues of justice or they're drawn to things. In your mind when you were there how does that get beaten out of them or stolen from them? I mean I touched on this but I've worked out places that have bonus structures that if you get a baseline salary of peanuts and then if you achieve a certain level of clicks on certain stories you can get bonuses. So literally some people's livelihood is tied up with writing the sexiest story possible but on like a grander scale I mean people know that in order to get a bigger platform you have to be known and the ways of doing that are writing sexy stories and getting them in front of people but yeah she shows that everything is possible. And cozying up to the powers that be the control of access. Exactly. Access to power access to corporation. Yeah the incentive structure is just fucked all the way down. It's like it's not just the journalists that have the wrong incentive structure. It's the yeah they work for it. That's you. Right. Top top down. And it meets us to where we are now. That's right. That's right. Oh yeah journalists I mean are at the bottom of this like power structure it definitely comes from the top and I mean there's a pressure on editors to get this structure to certain way so that they have success and it goes all the way up. There was a point in the documentary that I loved so much which is they were at the Republican national convention in 2008 and there's all these protests outside and I think Amy got arrested. That's the same Paul right. Yeah yeah she got arrested yeah. And they interview Katie Curry. Yes. And she asks are you gonna be covering the journalists outside getting arrested and she goes you know I've seen that and I would I would love to but we have all these speeches. And she said she literally says that we have all these things that they want us to show and you're like who wants you to show all these speeches that they want us to show. They yeah you're not a cameraman you're a journalist like you have some agency in this. I love that little line like she's like I'm aware of it as if that matters. And no shade to Katie like I'm sure it's not just her but no. No it's everybody. But you know in their hearts you know that they got into this business to do the right thing to tell the right story and I honestly believe like they could do it. They could overturn. I don't think that the incentive system is I think you could make a profitable news business out of what democracy now does using them as your touchstone not buzzfeed or whatever the fuck people use. I think it takes a leap of say it just takes a lot of bravery. Bravery right but yeah you saw she was in East team or she's in like oh my god. She put herself in literal harm's way. And you know it's like the exact opposite like when she said an exclusive is a failure but that's just the exact opposite of this like save it for the book culture that we're seeing right now where everything comes out a year and a half later and they wanted all to themselves. Right word well it was fantastic. Braiding what are the what are the kids want to know from us? Alrighty first up John do you think Fetterman is going to flip to the Republicans? Fetterman. I think the Republican caucus is if I know correctly no hoodies allowed. Suddenly they're okay with his hoodie. Yeah no I think the Republican caucus is like a country club. I think there might be a dress code. I think he got to wear at least like a polo shirt so I don't think I mean to be fair to Fetterman like I don't know how he would be a Republican. Like he goes along with them on I guess Israel which I really don't understand and maybe there's like a couple of you know he'll he'll throw a bump but as a Republican I don't understand where he would fit in unless he just wants like to be in a better office or get a better committee role, but like he's not a Republican. Do you see what he said about Platner that? No, what do you say? Like the Republicans love Platner. The Republicans love Platner. Yeah, he said that. What does that mean? I just love how all of these Democrats are like pointing the finger like, no, you're going to be a Republican. You're going to be a Republican. No, he's going to be a Republican. I think he should just draw the two strings on the hoodie and just pull it down. Shut the fuck up for just a little while. But he will wear a suit when Netanyahu comes to town. Right. He's like, I'll dress up for him. He's got a very peculiar set of, he's got great empathy oftentimes for marginalized groups yet in that situation truly is just, I'm not looking at anything else but Netanyahu. It's such an odd dichotomy from how he is with almost everything else. I can't follow his logic. No, but I will say this, he is the senator I most dress like. Honestly, probably saved. I'm dressed like him now. You don't know that. I'm a hootie list, but pretty much everything else is straight Federman right now to be honest with you. I've been Federmaning it since probably like 9th grade. Before him maybe. Something like that. What else? What else? John, why do you think the Democrats never found a good nickname for Trump? How about Demi Don, Duchy Don, or Trumpity Dumpity? Yeah, that's probably why because none of those are any. I had one form years ago, fuck face on clown stick, which I used when he and I were in a Twitter war together. Well, he was in a Twitter war. I didn't have Twitter and he went after me one night because my real last name is Leibowitz and so he felt that I was hiding that I'm Jewish, which if, you know, I don't know where else you would see this face other than like a poster for Fiddler on the roof. You could, whatever my name is, it's pretty obvious and I talk about it all the time about growing up Jews. So I, he said, you know, you know, his name is John Leibowitz or he's an imposter and why run from your heritage. And so I tweeted back at him, Donald Trump's real name is fuck face on clown stick. Why would you run? And so suddenly he's getting bombarded and like 12 hours later, he just tweets out, everybody thinks fuck face on consequences is so funny and they're all tweeting at me. It's not original. It's not funny. And then like we didn't hear anything else about it until like two weeks later, three in the morning, he just tweets out John Stuart Leibowitz is a pussy. And that's it. That was the end of the fight. Wait, was he president during this time or was it? He was not. He was in his, he was in his, I do videos from my office era. Okay. Not to put it into a swifty in terms, but he was in that era. And I just thought, well, this is insane that this guy is not presidential, not, I mean, forget about presidential running a large conglomerate like real estate thing, like you're up at three in the morning, just randomly calling people plusies. Was that the last time that you guys interacted? Uh, yeah, I think, I mean, yeah, I mean, we've interacted a couple of times in person before all that. Yeah. I had them on the daily show at which point. And by the way, like his, uh, uh, uh, predilection for lying is not new. It is how he conducts his business. Like he was on the show. And I was like, the apprentice is the number one show in America and I was like, it's actually I think 30 second, like it was, it was on the downswing. So I'm like, I don't think that's true. And he's like, number one, you're like, oh, it reminds me. Have you ever seen the footage of Mike Wallace interviewing Roy Cone who was Trump's lawyer and confidant and mentor? For those who don't know, Roy Cone was the, the, he worked with Joe McCarthy on the House and Americans committee, like truly the epitome of a bad person, like it's, it's, it's a person with ill intent who learns the ways of the legal system so that he can weaponize it against good human beings. And he was Trump's guy, like you don't hire Roy Cone if you feel like I'd like my business to be above board. He's a guy. But it's such an interesting interview. Mike Wallace is saying Roy Cone is sick at this time and he's dying. He has AIDS and Mike Wallace says, forgive me, you know, but the rumors around that you are, you know, back in the day, then they referred to it as you are a homosexual. That's how they would, you know, on television, like now he would just go, rumor is your fabulous. Is that true? And that's not how it goes, so see rumors, you're homosexual and that you have AIDS. No, what? No, I don't have AIDS. You can call my doctors. We called your doctors and they can't talk to us unless you say they can. Are you saying we can call them? I don't have AIDS. I have, I have a liver cancer. It's, it's different. They just give you the same drugs as AIDS. That's why I'm not gay. I'm not, you know, Mike says, or, you know, people think there might be a moment where you come out of the closet, come out of the closet for what? I'm not a homosexual and I don't have AIDS. And like, this just goes on and Mike Wallace is being very respectful, but somewhat insistent. And it goes on and on and on. And then the code of it is Roy Cohn, a gay man has died of AIDS, but it was such an interesting exercise in, and you almost felt like in the moment Roy Cohn believed it. And maybe that's the secret of it. Maybe that's the castanza of it all like, it's not a lie if you believe it. Yeah. I think Trump believes his own lies to some extent. I do. Is that the dynamic? I don't know. I feel like with the Tucker Carlson interview that just happened and he was saying like that man just does not know much information, like probably sounds good enough to him to believe without enough context. But there's another guy who, how, how would Tucker know? There's another guy who was literally asking the thing, you said he might be the antichrist. I never said that. Never said it. Here it is. It's written here. That never came out of my mouth. Here's the video. I never said that because I don't know what the antichrist is. Like they are, it is a grifter subculture and they're all a part of it. And Tucker's move is just the latest shift of the grift. That's all this is. There's no epiphany. It's just, oh, that fucking ship is sinking. And the media doesn't hold them accountable then move on to the next thing. And the New York Times does a profile of Tucker over the weekend. Right. Like, oh, this is an interesting transformation. No, it's not. And why is he transforming? Because he knows. And how is he transformed? Because he's an opportunistic asshole. Well. Buzz Shaka Boom. Now there's a nickname that'll stick. All right. What's the last one? What's the last one? Last one. John, what's your favorite emoji? Oh, the emoji is not, we're not talking about a giffy. No. Or giff. Well, what's your favorite giff? Yeah. Do you have one of those? Generally, it's the, there is a baby at a hockey game who was like, and like super intense. And I'll hit that one a lot. Uh-huh. Or no. Yeah. It's a little girl. And she's holding it like, she looks like she's eating some cotton candy. And it's like-- Sugar rush. Suddenly, just dopamine. And she's just like, guy, we'll fuck it kill all of you. I like that one. I like SpongeBob coming out of the shirt. Oh. I've gotten that one. Yes. Have I said that to you? That's a big one. Anything with the dog. Of course. But what's the emoji? We have a guess. I don't do many of them to be quite honest. The poop is always big, like I'll slap a poop on something, depending. I don't do a lot, or a poop or this face. Oh. Oh, the grimace. Grimace. Grimace, guy. We were going to go, uh, our polymarket was thumbs up because any time-- Oh, you know what? Anyway. Anytime he's saying, "Johnna," I think it's like, "Do you want to do 11 a.m. or 12 p.m." And he's like, "Just thumbs up." Yes. Busted. Yes. That is correct. Generally, they're not-- they're not-- they're questions. And I'm just like, "Yes!" What's your-- what's your-- what's your emoji go to? Oh, I like the, um, I like the one I close, and then you're tongue out, like-- Ah. That's-- that is to indicate, like, that's crazy pants. Yeah. Or just like-- Where she's having a good time. Oh, all right. Yeah. Drunk. I'm drunk. More drunk. What's your-- what's your go to? So, in this administration, I've been using a lot of the upside down smiley and a lot of the melty smiley. Yes. And the head, the, uh, explosion head. Oh, yeah. That's a good, uh, good, uh, explosion head sometimes, Brittany. Um, I do a lot of, like, the eyes, like, looking to the side. Oh, yeah. Oh, the two, like, that's just-- Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm always like, "What's the tea?" Or, like, eyes. Or, like, eyes. Yeah. Yeah. in real life. - I do the grimace a lot. - Yes. - I think I do that too. And because of the Chrissy Teague and Giff, where she's like, - Yeah. - Like I just adopted that face because of that. - But no that in conversation, I don't ever use in real life the poop emoji. That I don't do. - But your dog does. - That's really his go-to that is always along there. Guys, fantastic program. So nice to catch up and talk to Amy Goodman and you guys are lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mimetic, producer Jillian Spear, video editor and engineer Rob Vitola, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, and our executive producer is Chris McShane and Katie Gray. We will join you guys again next week. (upbeat music) The weekly show with John Stewart is a comedy central podcast is produced by Paramount Audio and Bust Boy Productions. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)