The NEW Science of Football Strength and Conditioning w/ BYU Sport Scientist Dr. Skyler Mayne

How many days a week are they actually doing like resistance-based training? Some type of sprint work. How much of it is acceleration versus max velocity work? Like how do you guys lay out of full week for that? Two on, one off, two on. So Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, off, Thursday, Friday. This year we're gonna roll it a little bit different where we're gonna go the whole five days, but it won't be full five days of sprinting and lifting. We'll kind of pair them a little bit differently. You got someones that come in there and like I feel like week one they might be back squat in 550 pounds and then you have another kid from Utah and he's back squat in pre-15, right? And it's like where is that strong enough point for the position groups in specific lifts? So we'll use our three rep max to get just a baseline for all these guys. We'll look at their mid five pull on the force plate, like how they're producing that force, how much they're doing. And then we've toyed with just an actual press through the force plate and seeing how that looks for certain athletes. What are exercises that someone can do to try to at least prevent any tissue issues in the hamstring? What can they do to prevent those hamstring injuries? And this is a very common question. And I think the best setup for it is. We're gonna go into the sports science of one of the best Division 1 football programs and we're gonna start right. Now, I was fortunate enough to sit down with Dr. Skyler main AKA Doc. And we went over all things around periodization of football, how you can prep for the entire year, how you can prepare the soft tissue in your ankle, your knee, your lower back, your shoulders, all of these different factors, how you manage strength gains with speed gains, and how you can lead into picking a football program, this podcast is absolutely loaded. Now, let's listen to Dr. Skyler main. Okay, so one of the things I think Coach is struggling with is especially Coach like myself, is we're dealing with football players. You got a detackler, a D-Liaman or a D-N, or even offensive lineman. Do you see a specific correlation between any lifts? Like when you've got bigger dudes, you need to gain mass with these athletes, but then trying to get them to gain mass and also get faster. Is there any lift as a sports scientist, analyzing the data that you see? Like, okay, these bigger guys tend to run faster and they do this lift well. Is there any correlation in your experience or is it sort of just dependent upon the athlete? Yeah, there's some correlation between, actually some like resisted running that we found, and then like a hip thrust, but it also is the makeup of the athlete, like genetically, how are they built, like anatomically, you know, their actual structure would dictate some of that. And we have you, we have a lot of different Polynesians players that come through, and I would even say like ethnically there's a lot of different builds out there, and that does affect their speed. So we actually go through a pretty heavy, you know, screen process initially when our athletes come in of how they move some of their deficiencies. The same way you go to the doctor, it's kind of how we built this. You go through the vital signs, but we go through a whole checklist of like, how elite are they, what's the performance like? And then they get grouped based off of that. So we group based off of, you know, both on-field work, as well as in the weight room work. And so the guys, even though they're lifting with other detacles, let's say, they might need to work on different deficiencies. So they might be, they might need to work more on like a hinge pattern, and that's going to help translate to some speed. Or they might just need to produce more force, and we'll get into some different sprint, you know, resistance with that. I know it's not a straight answer, but like it's, it is athlete dependent for sure. So with a screening specifically, what would a screening, if I am, let's, you know, using that example, just filling off with that D, like D-Liaman, let's say, our linebacker comes in, what screening would you be going through that would be related to the weight room? And their speed work as well. Yeah, so we'll go through like a, do some DSI testing. So force plate jump, kind of, we're going to jump. And mid-Fy, Isopole, we also do, you know, we go through some three rep maxes on the clean series, back squat bench, just your standard. Then we also do on the 1080, a single leg, broad jump, as well as a velocity profiling, force velocity profiling on the 1080. So from there, we group our guys into just some really high level buckets, you know, forced efficiency, velocity deficiency. Our new guys might just need some volume. And then I have an elite tier that we pull from where, they're where we want them to be in those metrics. But now we get into limb length, we get into some movement patterns with them. So like an overhead squat type movement, we look at their actual hip anatomy. So how does that femur sit in that's a tabulum? And from some of that, we're able to glean. You know, this guy's going to be a better pusher or a better hindr. And then we'll film their runs. And so that again helps kind of classify what do they need to work on? There's different classifications in sprinting, but we look at those too. Okay, so if I've got, when you're doing the 1080 single leg jump, are you doing like a multiple jump or are you doing just that single leg jump? Yeah, so we'll do just a single leg and we'll do it with different weights, almost like horizontal profiling, you know, horizontal projection, if you will. And we'll do it the similar to sprints will roll off three or four different weights for those guys and see and we'll film it. How are they doing it? How are they compensating through that movement too? And then, okay, so you brought up even when you when you talked about the resisted run and the hip thrust, let's just say, what would the resisted run look like? Is it a shorter sprint? How much weight is it a longer sprint? What does that lay out to be? Yeah, so we'll roll through four different ones. So a quick and easy way to be like, let's say it's our heaviest weight, right? So a 30 kilo sprint at, you know, 15 yards, then we'll go to like a 15 kilo at 20, 25, 10 at 25, and then, you know, five at like 30. So we can go through, plot those points and see where they're deficient at. So heaviest and shortest distance, lightest and longest distance. Okay, so in my mind, I would feel like, use going back to the alignment scenario. Would is it wrong to think or what is what is what have you seen data, data wise in the fact that like, let's say you get, and this is just my my thought would be if someone's running the third with 30 kilos at 15 yards or 20 kilos at 25 yards or 30 yards. And then you would compare that to, let's say, they're flying 10. Do you see any specific ratios where it's like the linemen are better in this sort of area versus the, you know, the wider severs are better over here and maybe the running backs and linebackers have a greater spectrum. Is there any like, I would, do you have ratios where you look at resisted sprints to flying 10s and that's something that, you know, if somebody's watching or even myself, like later, I would take this and be like, okay, Doc said that this is a good rule of thumb for this flying 10 related to a running back. Is there anything that you do where you do compare those resisted sprints to that flying 10 or 40? Yeah, so yes, there's not like a hard, great set of data out there to pull from. So within the team, that's stuff that we go through and look at. The majority of our guys that like are running backs and linebackers, it's it's almost like, if you look at the heaviest weight in the shortest distance, your biggest body to athlete should be best at that, right? Like they can move the most weight. Your fastest, lightest guy should be the best at the greater distance and the lighter weight. So you're running back, lineback or tide, and they're kind of in that middle spectrum. You'll run into instances where those are off. They're better at one or the other. And that's when we dive into some of the force plate numbers. So if I have a running back who is really, really good with heavy weight through 10, but they fall off, I'm going to go and correlate more to like their force plate and see, are they, you know, velocity deficient? They're really strong. They can move a lot of weight, but when we need them to get up and go, it's not as relevant for them. Like they can't get up to a top end speed that's maybe over 20 miles an hour. So we'll adjust their training and we'll adjust their flies based off of that. So if they're really good at that short distance, really good at that weight, we can measure that with the force plate as well. Then we see a correlation with improvement of speed by touching kind of that other end of the spectrum, right? I'm not going to have them continue to pull a lot of weight a lot. a lot of distance. We'll put them through greater distance fly. So they might have a 20 build 10. And those are the type of almost reverse engineering of their speed that we end up doing. And we see a lot of that when guys come in, our higher ranked recruits are already at a good ratio strength of velocity. But to keep them in that now becomes the weight room is so focused on force a lot of the time, that strength metric that you have to make sure that you're keeping them in a good spot. That when you go out in sprint, you're not making them a worse athlete. I think that's what a lot of people are afraid of is, well, I went to college and I got slower. You hear that all the time. There's a lot of nuance to that. But it's the testing kind of sets us up to put those guys in the right groups that their flies. They might have extra reps of those flies if they need to get faster, longer distance. They might have an extra day of that, the way that we program out. They might be in a group that's hitting more of that top and speed more times than the other groups. Guys, this episode is sponsored by our strength training app peak strength. Our app is design based off of how we program athletes. You can look at different sports. If you're looking at football, wrestling, volleyball, if you play one of those specific sports, you can select that inside of peak strength. We even have football based program for every single position. All you have to do is click the first link in the description or the pin comment. If you're an individual just trying to get back in shape or maybe you're in shape and you want to get more explosive, improve your endurance, gain that strength all at the same time. We are deep inside of our 90 day of cultivation challenge. That's the second link in the description. You can get the free download where you can try to improve your overall capacity on a daily basis. We have weekly challenges that you guys can do. You can follow us along also on my Instagram broadcast channel. Now, let's get back to Dr. Maine. Like using that, are you looking at, if you set up the whole year and you're going January to January, right? You're looking at, let's say, let's pretend, you know, I mean, you're not in the playoff, playoffs over, or let's pretend you're in the playoff. It's February. If you have February until August, are you setting up, okay, this is the timeline that we would program to build these qualities in these specific groups. Maybe it's, you know, whatever those qualities might be. And then once the in season comes, I guess what I'm trying to go with this is how, how do you set that up as, as a program? Like, let's say you start in February and you're trying to work all the way to January. How do you set up the priorities of building those qualities versus maintaining versus like, you're just trying to float through and peek so that you're in the playoff and you can win some playoff games. Yeah, I think, you know, our, our, we have really, really smart coaches in our strength that room, like all five across the board. These are the exact questions that we're constantly asking. And some of this isn't unknown because when you go this deep into the year, January February, you have a new group of guys that are already in. So you almost have to run two separate programs. You guys returning and then your new individuals. But yeah, we, we do look at the whole year and it feeds into picking going into season. And then, you know, to run little cycles within the season of picking throughout that year with the goal of being the playoff. So we have to adjust our whole schedule. Getting through spring ball is kind of more the focus right, getting through it, not being amazing at it. And then having that long term goal of tissue preparation, working that strength, getting our guys bigger, stronger, and then going into season, it speeds up. And then it's touching qualities we need in season. And then we run a veteran group and a freshman, you know, we deal with missionaries here at BYU. So freshman missionary group that is doing similar, but separate because I have guys that just played a game, you know, eight, eight days ago and school starts tomorrow. So I also can't bury them again, but I have new guys that haven't played football in two years that have searcher missions. And they now need to catch up. So it's a balance act of that's why we track so much. That's why we care about tracking is those are completely different worlds that you have to mold into the same team. Right, right. I was actually, as you were saying, I was thinking about your incoming quarterback. I think he's going on the rider. Yeah, he's going on to your mission. Yep. And that was actually something I was thinking about is like, how do you how do you deal with even someone like him as a quarterback? I've seen the videos of him clean in like 330 snatch in like 230 240 or whatever crazy weights it's been. Now he's going to go for two years. I don't know if he's going to be able to I would assume he can't train for that time. I would assume. Yeah, there's so this is the hard part with a church mission is like it's your assigned somewhere, right? Like you don't pick. So you can go, we have I have a player right now who's in Africa. I went on a mission to France. Writer's going to Florida. Like you don't know what they'll have access to. So we were able to communicate by like we can send a program, but they might have weight. They might have soup cans in a bag. Right. So that's that's another thing that we juggle here. That's probably unique to anywhere in the in the country. So there's a whole curve when they come back. That's why we have to use them into what we're doing because if someone hasn't sprinted or lifted in two years, it's a major disadvantage and there's a lot of injury risk with soft tissue type stuff. Yeah, one thing on on campus and then you just go full throttle. They're done. Yep. Okay, so when you're looking at I guess the next thing that I was thinking about specifically would be how do you lay out, let's say, I mean, even maybe full blown off season versus spring ball then spring ball versus prep for the season. How many days a week are they actually doing like resistance based training? And then how many of those days would they also be doing some type of sprint work? And then is the sprint work? How off how much of it is acceleration versus versus max velocity work? Like how do you guys lay out a full week for that? Yeah, so off season wise, we've done it. We've done it different the last couple of years where we'd gone two on, one off, two on. So Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, off Thursday, Friday. This year we're going to roll it a little bit different where we're going to go the full five days, but it won't be full five days of sprinting and lifting. We typically work through like a heavy acceleration day, a top end speed day, a change of direction day, and then we go through and add some volumes. We might have some tempo work with our on-field type movements. Okay. Similarly in the weight room, we try to pair those with like our lower body vertical days are going to be on our top end speed days. Our horizontal days match more like kind of unilateral horizontal type movements. And then what date is that match with that on the speed? With that be acceleration. Yeah, acceleration day. Yeah. And then same with change of direction, there's multi-directional movements we do in the weight room with that. We're a program that runs first, right? Lift second. But then to get some extra time on the field, we'll have a day this year where there's just field work and there's not a lift with it such as quicker in and out. We're constantly trying to look at what we can change to kind of move the needle forward. To get we're at a set amount of time that we can do with our athletes. So how can we maximize that and what do we want to maximize? And our older guys, they need to get bigger and stronger still, but they benefit from that speed work on the field versus the younger guys. They need a little bit more volume in the weight room. They got to catch up to the right body size, the body comp size. And with that, we'll roll that way, the spring ball, and then spring ball. We'll practice three days a week. And we roll that through five weeks. So we'll lift two to three times a week, depending on the week. There's weeks we have scrimmages that we won't. The nice thing that we have here is with our coaching staff, they allow us to build some speedwork into those practice periods. So within practice, we will still hit max velocity. This year, there's going to be a little bit more that we'll be asked to do. There's one portal window. Your team is your team at that point, so we'll continue to develop through spring ball instead of it being full practice. There will be practice, but they'll also be mixed in training within that that will control. So it'll be kind of a new wrinkle that we're doing this year. Okay, so walk me through. I do have some questions around Max Velo and what that might on field stuff might look like, but I wanted to go into first layout like a horizontal horizontal lift when you termed it that way versus a vertical lower body. Sure. What is that? Yeah, there's some nuance to that right because everything is fairly vertical, right? But you'll get into some of our lunch patterns, our step up patterns where there's a component moving forward. Within that, there's on the field, it's not necessarily fully in the weight room, but it's still a strength component of it with some prowler marches, some band-resisted marches, working some technical pieces of that, some Med Ball throws, things of that nature where we're creating force moving forward, right? So in the weight room, you're a little bit more limited with that. We have some specialty equipment that we can do some extra reps with some Kaiser equipment that we do some hip thrust things. But getting that hip projecting not just straight up and down, but there's a component moving forward within the movement as well. So you feel the direction of force application does have an impact on how they adapt and that that has some correlation in your opinion. There is, but it's also a lot of this is your creating patterns, right? You're just teaching, hey, force through this part of the foot. It's not necessarily like a one for one if the weight goes up in this movement, they got this much faster. We know like the on field stuff is the bread and butter of speed work. But keeping a similar pattern through some of these movements helps those athletes, you know, model it in the weight room after they've been out on the field modeling. Okay, so you then, okay, that would be. So when you're looking at like a horizontal unilateral, that would be sort of the lunges the step ups. Would you put like a rear foot elevated on that day or would you put a rear foot elevated split squad would you put on that day or would you put that more on the vertical lower body? Yeah, we've done both. I think there's. We do it right now early season. A lot of it is kind of a tissue prep of that. So there's an isometric component to it. We'll also do it on cadence as kind of a finisher at the end of our lifts. Our strength coaches like the way they develop this, you know, they have a great routine through all of it. But the end of all of everything through winter and spring is a lot of tissue qualities type movements isometrics. We've got a lot of lubricated ins reps, you know, looking at stuff that we've had injured in the past. So knee hip ankle shoulder low back type movements that they'll hit at the end of the lift like that. So that's usually where we have a rear foot elevated split squad. I feel like that's like the exact video that we reacted to was you guys in the offseason prep and it like when I was watching them because they were doing the wall sits. You these guys, I think that also goes it shows it demonstrates to me your your program and the level of like doing it the right way like it's got to be the right way. And if we're not doing it the right way, then there's an issue here. And I think that that it came at least for me personally. It came across like you pay attention to details. But I think because of the setup we have right like I get to look at a high level look certain things and I get to get into the weeds of other things. And I let our strength coaches they get to go out and program and hold our guys accountable and right in line with what our head coach wants. And coach Ryan Phyllis is our as our head strength coach and he is meticulous about those details right he. I love working with him. I love being able to speak a common language of what we're trying to get done and like we get a bounce ideas off each other's heads and and the rest of our staff does as well. But then when he is on the guys like we know the details of winning and losing it's it's so it comes under a couple plays in the game right like. A couple plays here and there and you win a game of couple plays here and there and you lose by 40 and it's it's not as big of a gap as people think. So the whole point of offseason is getting the guys physically prepared but there's a mental component. And there's a discipline component and I love our program here because we have coaches that hold our players to it but we also have players that drive in it that's what they want they want to know what they need to do. Our coaches hold them accountable put together a great program and then our guys go out and execute on it and that's that's a unique thing that we have here. We don't deal with the same problems that a lot of programs do we're not hurting kids to get in like they want to be in here they want to get coach they want to get better. I was just going to say so do you think do you think it's for as far as the portals concerned and like this is a little off test from the actual training. But do you think that the type of athlete that you guys have that's interested in transferring that's that's interested in coming in like these are these are individuals that are already a bit more discipline as far as things are concerned a bit more dialed in with their lifestyle habits like. I mean I remember being at Penn State my like my junior year I want to say they and this was like paternal the end of his career was like there was like 15 arrests and the one year it's just like I don't see that number coming out of you are you and that was one thing I did have a question on. Yeah I think you know so clonis talk your head coach like everybody talks about the culture here we talk about being a family like it very much feels like a family like you walk into our locker room our guys are hanging out you know when we just went to this last bowl game we flew down everybody's family like and they do that on purpose. But yeah it the level of kid we get here is committed we I mean portals going on right now we just have visits with guys one of the kids that came through was that you know a great program. But before they even came here. They like once they're in the portal they knew things about our program that I can you guys do this for recovery you guys do this for nutrition this is how you train. You guys had 22 of your 22 starters from game one start in the conference championship game like they're aware and. We get that kid and it makes that much easier to work with because they want to put in the work and they understand if they do what we ask they're going to be set up for success as best they can. And that really comes from the head coach being like we're a family and and he takes it a step further and says we're a brotherhood because like your mom and dad love you no matter what you go crash the car they love you your brother's going to call you a you know a name and hit you in the back of the head and say why did you do that right so that's. We we personify that here we hold our own players accountable our players hold our players accountable. They're brothers to each other and that's why we've had success is that culture that's been built from the top down and when we go into the portal we look for kids that you know fit the culture that want to be here we're not out here just being like hey come get money it's. Do you actually want to be here do you want to play football. Do you want to put in the work and if they don't then. Probably not the place home. So you actually had 22 guys start week one and then they played or started in the conference championship yeah so we which is like what within within that right like there's always like they missed the game here they missed the game there but they came back it's the count big 12 title game and they're playing there at least playing it like they're active and yeah they might have gotten hurt but they're recovered back like that's actually insane. The year the year prior we had 21 of 22 the same and we probably we had two more weeks we probably would have had 22 of 22 again. That's wild okay. Then on that because you brought up the the consistent areas of injuries and I often think about what when you're looking at a sport like like football you mentioned you ankle knee what would be like example of foot foot prep or tissue prep ankle foot slash tissue prep that you might be putting people through to try and really make sure that that is as dialed in as possible for when they're generating force and when they're getting involved with collision that they can hand it. So we run a barefoot warm up through this whole early season. There's some so just some movement right barefoot letting that foot out of the cleat letting some of the intrinsic muscles work there's some truth to that just being out of footwear. Then there's also the prep of you know jumping right you have to teach the body how to jump where does that force go through the polgo series we go through. The number of sets and wraps and all that is again dialed in by a string stuff through the years of of that through us looking through research like it's not just three sets of 10 and call it like there's a reason behind what they do and. We looked into it a lot because we, two years ago, you know, we saw high ankles as something that was a little higher on our team than what we wanted. And so we're not a team that makes you tape your ankles or not. It's more like how can we work different angles of the foot, you know, inversion, e-version, you got to jump, you got to put force through that foot. And then you need to do enough of it that your body can handle the prep of practice, right? There also is the resistance of running with a 1080 with a lot of weight, with a lot of force going through in a keelies. So making sure that that's dose appropriately early on. We don't dive into a bunch of reps immediately. And any guys who have had prior injury or issue with that, they'll be on a modified version of that until they're up the full speed, whether it's a keelies calf, anything like that. On that, if you've got somebody who's, who's duck-footed versus pigeon-toed, okay, to toes out, toes in, you mentioned the, the femur and the hip socket earlier. Do you see consistency in a duck-footed individual versus pigeon-toed individual and how they apply force and then also any consistency between that and moving even further to potential injuries? Or is it more position specific? Both we see similar patterns in certain positions. A duck-footed player who plays O-line versus a cornerback. I'm going to worry less about the O-Line men and more about the corner bell. I got to dive into where is that rotation happening? Is that just where they're built or is there something going on at the hip? Is there something going on at the ankle? A worry that I would have for someone who's duck-footed who is a skill position, like you'll get adductor, hip flexor, sport hernia type stuff. And especially those guys who are fast and a lot of repetitive motion, that's something that we have to be aware of. This is an offensive guard who's duck-footed. If I see him get into a position and push someone and he's taking these little choppy steps, it might not be as much of an issue for someone like that as it would be for a skill guy. So the context of the player matters. How they come into us, had they had an injury prior. We'll have a guy that has one foot, duck foot, one knot. Maybe they had an ACL tear. Maybe they had something else. But it's things that we look to not over-correct and spend all of our time just on it. But you got to be aware of it and make sure that we're not causing that asymmetry to become worse. Do you feel this is going into a go-to question that I actually went in front of free in my head? I have plenty of calls, I'm sure. I am also a duck-footed individual and I get triggered by it. Yeah, whatever. Anyway, do you feel that if you have somebody who is duck-footed, is it, if you're looking at it, it's like, okay, this is likely how the hip sits. And if we strengthen these issues, these points typically, and I did want to say, are they typically more hinders than they are pushers if you see those individuals? That was another question I did have. And then is it like, let's just try to mitigate any potential injuries as much as possible. Do you see that it's worse than being pigeon-toed or not? Those are some other questions along those lines. Yeah, I think so. They tend to be, to answer your one of your questions. They tend to be more pushers generally. And a lot of that, I have found that, in a lot of instances, there's a lack of hip rotation and hip extension. So they will, like, almost push their hips forward and squat everything. And almost like if you think about alignment, engage in and driving like the hip through and like arching and pushing, those squats similarly to that, they don't like to sit back in the hip. So they'll have crazy mobility, possibly in the ankle with the knees, so if somebody's listening, the knees might track really far forward. But if you have an image of like a rope pulling on your hip, a rope pulling on your knees, their hips not getting pulled back. No, and a lot of the time they'll collapse like the knees will dive in with it, right? And that's, people look for that, people see that, they know that. But so you might correct it on a squat, let's say. But then when they're sprinting and pushing and engaging, do they go right back to that pattern? And again, for an alignment, it may not be the end of the world. But they usually get a lot stronger and faster if I get a better hip extension. So I might give them extra hip thrusts and things of that nature, unilateral side. Because now if they feel strong enough to sit into that hip, they're going to be able to create more power. They're going to be able to create more torque and then even sprinting wise, they're going to create more force driving through that hip. Pigeon Toad versus Duckfooted, like Speedwise or correction wise it. I've had, so outside of BYU, I work with NFL players and some professional track athletes. And some of them have the worst running gate and mechanics foot position, but they're the world's best. So it's, I do think hip extension unilateral movement and rotational pieces are under trained in a lot of those individuals. And if you add that in, I think you can fix some of the issues. But you also have to know what is an issue. If an athlete's doing everything fine, there's no pain. There is no injury, but they don't move how you want them to move like, who are you to correct it? And I say that, I say that just like respectfully of like, I've worked with athletes. I got to go to the Olympics a couple of years ago, two years ago with people who won gold medals and set Olympic records and world records. And if I put them through a screen, they'd fill some stuff. But like, am I going to change it? People, well, they could be even better. I'm like, yeah, but they could be worse. I've seen it where it's gone both ways. It's actually, if you looked at, okay, Julian Alfred who won the 100 meters in the Olympics in 24 and the two, she won both in 24, not in 25 but in 24. She's a dog. She's an absolute freak. She is very much, maybe slightly pigeon toed, very slightly. I would almost say equal. But if you look at Shikari who got the silver, she is a bit more duck footed. And it's interesting because it's like, if you fix that on Shikari, is it really the different the differing factor for her or is that what enables her to do that? And like, it says, it's a good mental drill. But it's also like, I don't know if you've spent so much time trying to fix that in Shikari, like, she might still get dusted by Alfred. We don't know. Look, and that's where I think it's the, you have to be confident as a coach, as a practitioner in what you're training, like the principal has to be sound. But I'm also the mindset, you know, there's 50 ways to accomplish the same task. We might have a way that we, this is the most efficient for our team. Let's set the foundation right, the principal right, and go that way. And that's what gets fun for me in my job is because I have such a great staff around me. Like, I then get to go, okay, our running back this last year was all big 12, right? Like, you know, over a thousand yards rushing, he's training with the rest of our team. He's deciding right now if he's coming back or going to NFL, but let's say he comes back. He still needs to train with the team. He's still everything we're doing in principals really good, but now I get to go, what's this? What else, right? What else can I dive into with him? I train the quarterbacks here, so I get into some of that rotation. It's the same theme. Like, do I try to fit their arm angle to be the same as every quarterback? Well, looking the NFL, every single quarterback throws differently. So the training principals can be similar, but you got to be able to understand the anatomy. You got to be open to other ideas because athletes are great compensators that get things done. But it doesn't mean it's wrong. It might just be right for them. So as long as the principal sound, you can, in my mind, it can be more unique to each individual. What you just said, the athletes are great compensators. I've actually heard only one other individual say this. Like if you really look at the data, like, obviously competitive wise, they're usually the best at like silencing noise and things like that. But then as far as like the physical components, they're the best at figuring out what they're figuring out how to compensate and get a task accomplished based off of what they have at their, you know, in their body. Like, my ultimate goal, right, when I look at a math, the reason we do a screen is like, how do you build the best, the best athlete? Now the weight room's a means to an end with that. And so is our on field stuff. But all of it is pulled from other places like weight training didn't come from football. You know speedwork didn't come from football. They all come from different places. So That's where I'm like it doesn't have to always be the exact same as long as the principle of what you're doing to sound you understand why That's that's the science and then the artistry is the coaching is why why can I give someone a program? We send our exact program from BYU to every school in the country. Why are the results different, right? But our head coach talks a lot about you know chefs Gordon Ramsey and all them like you can buy the recipes, but why is he a better chef than you? It's like it's who it is and That's where I think we've invested in our players and our coaches like We have the world best coaches because they Have being gradients and then they can be an artist under themselves and execute on that And that's been fun for me to watch because all five of our guys You know our head strength coach gives all four of the others an opportunity to call days and to lead stuff like in the video You guys looked at like there were other people leading different parts of that lift so they get to put their own flare their own spin Which just brings the whole group up everybody gets a different point of view Everybody gets to be heard And they get to be their own artist within what we're doing Yeah, that that was I mean, I think there was three guys actually I think there was a head guy. I think there was a second dude in the gym and then there was a third guy that came out Yep during the I roller yeah, we roll our groups tight so we'll overlap a little bit so When when you're looking at like position specific injuries and I actually Maybe I should go into the the hamstring first like one thing because you I wanted to get into Maybe the knee the low back, but but Let's get into the hamstring first then I want to ask the position specific injury on the light of like hamstring issues because we'll have a lot of athletes out in coaches watching right now right and they're saying like okay, how How can doc help me with my high school team? We get we get hamstring issues when we run the flying 10 we get hamstring issue when we run 40s What are exercises that someone can do to increase or try to at least prevent Any tissue issues in the hamstring or what are specific drills when they're running or what can they do to prevent those hamstring injuries? Yeah, so we we run a clinic for our local high schools here And this is a very common question and I think The best set up right is is the preparation making sure you're doing it when you guys are rested you guys are hydrated That top end speed day we make sure Speed work is kind of the first thing done so they're neurologically fresh and ready to go And then the preparation for it is like you start shorter than you think we're gonna not let Them hit that top speed the first couple weeks anyway There might be times that we do some build-ups to 80% So let's say it's a 30 yard build-up and when they hit 30 yards, we want them at 80% right so we're starting to get those mechanics Little more upright as they come through Then we'll build it to 90% and then when we go all out we might shorten it back down to 15 yards So I know they're not hitting top and speed right, but we're still getting some exposure And then we start bumping that distance out until we're at You know 40 plus if we really wanted to So I think Understanding when you do it. So we do it early in the week Making sure guys are rested making sure they're hydrated um Making sure that we go through a good extensive warm-up like they should be sweating through that warm-up And then building into it and then hitting the right distances if we had a Big hill by us like I would love to The hill naturally is gonna keep you in a decent spot because it's not top-end speed, but You can't reach on the hill. You can't hit top speed on the hill um There's research out there that tells you the exact degree of a hill puts you in a certain velocity decrement like that exists so coaches that don't have equipment and you can I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head but Know if the hill's 15 degrees it'll hold you at like a 3% velocity Decorator whatever you're trying to work can Clark brought this up and he actually so he He mentioned that specifically started interrupt here To tell you because he he even mentioned he's like I know there's at least one paper on it But then he was challenging our speed guy here like what you do is try to find the grades And try and go let's just say a universal point is 20 meters or 20 yards And on 15 12 10 and you and you show it use of what those look like what the velocity decrement is on each specific hill He's like that would be so awesome People could just sort of take out like a little picture like I think this is about a 10 you know 10 times I agree So it jibby maran's the one that published it um So I served my mission in france. It makes it easy that I can already read the French papers. Yeah, yeah, yeah But uh the other thing that like it makes me think of is we have a couple shred meals here. You've heard of those before It's the same same Essential concept right like I can put it at different angles Work the different parts of running mechanics and I can change the resistances of them So I don't have to run a full 40 To hit the back end the last 10 yards. I can set the machine To be at that position and at the resistance you would hit that at and run those reps there so we We can look at the body positions. We can look at the angles. We filmed some of that we do it in some return to play things Um But it's another way that for a rehab standpoint or from a hamstring injury standpoint If I'm not letting a Athlete get out and get that leg all the way in front of me I'm keeping a little bit of an angle in front of them that they have to run on I can keep that hamstring in a safe range of motion as well. Right right So do you do you think there's any correlation between doing Let's just like if I like because mentally I look at it and I go okay if I would start with like a glute bridge into a Leg curl with a slider like a like a you know then a leg curl like a kneeling leg curl then I go Maybe a back extension or a glute ham raise and then I go Nordics and then I I would take that and then I might go like We'll do these like aggressive like drop eccentric dumbbell RDL's to try to add a little more velocity on the eccentric and then we might work into slower marching where you're actually going through and then slowly build into like single leg Bounds or single leg hops at a at a lower tempo and then build into that Yep Is there any and like and then this might be where the art comes in is like what we try to do is like just slowly feel that out and give about a three to four If we have somebody coming back from injury slowly feel that out base off of what their response is until we would get back to Okay, can they do a single leg bound and then okay, let's go from the hill sprint now Let's try to go back to run that flying ten with only like a 15-yard building Yeah exactly so we'll progress guys right we'll start maybe like An isometric hamstring bridge right when they first first week it Yeah, I want movement right into it and that's just a contraction right so all I so bridge that um from there to and this is where there's some nuance how did they pull it was it a max velocity pull Was it out of a cut because guys will get a you know hamstring pull twisting and turning Mm-hmm and For me the rehab is different on those and getting them back the timeline changes for that um So Once I know kind of how that happens. I'll go like an ISO hold You can do the hamstring curls You can do an rdl with the rotation So if I'm dealing with more rotational aspect depending on what part of the hamstring if they came out of the cut or something To is that might be better? Yep, I might load them into a land mine right side the fixed point and I can pivot around that Okay, okay, and then yeah, and then you start getting into you know Uescent trick the center can't shrink curls maybe do a single leg version of that um my Nordics Uh my bounds and then I also because I've access to the 1080 or sled all I'll Work the weight opposite right I'll start heavy and keep a mid-apposition that safe and light and light and light and light and light until we're all the way Backed where we need to be okay. All right that actually Clareifies that quite a bit that was good like even just thinking through that especially with the sled Um, that's great uh Okay I got a question on I wanted to see I I asked less spellmanness and I know you work with less uh Can you walk me through maybe in this might be Really in depth then you might be like dude. I need to have my papers in front of me But if you would look at like flying 10 um I guess correlation to the 40 but like almost position based like where is like the those numbers that you want to see like a A dback versus a linebacker versus d line versus o line versus running back versus wide receiver Do you see consistent Numbers that you're like all right we need this positions flying 10 to be here and then we probably will be able to project their 40 if we see that Yeah, um Yeah, so we I do have the numbers on our team based off position um I don't have it in front of me, but it basically like We spoke to you. spend a lot of time in football. If I'm talking about prepping the football team versus prepping for the combine, for football specific, we're gonna spend more time in that zero to 10, zero to 20 than anything. We're accelerating and re-accelerating. We will treat our acceleration days linearly, but then later in the week we'll microdose in like an acceleration and a re-acceleration 'cause that's all football is right. But we'll set distances for that. Our best guys, you know, I'd have to go back and look, but we, depending on if we're on grass or on turf, that changes it a little bit. What are guys always shoot for in our flying numbers? Once we get like a 20 and a 10 build, is like they wanna go sub one. Like that's, we're trying to get low nines for those skill guys. Our combo guys still wanna be sub one, but they're a little bit closer. They might not be a, they might be a nine eight and nine nine, one, one, oh. And then our bigs, we're trying to be under, you know, a one two, that's like a 20 build, 10 fly. - Okay, 20 build. - Yep. - Okay. - And that's not perfect. I'd have to go back and look exactly. That's usually, that's what most of our guys are aiming for. Lots of outliers on that. - Do you change the, so going back off that question, 'cause you mentioned you spend more time with zero to 10, more time zero to 20, and then more time like, a high speed acceleration than a D cell, then maybe another Excel. Do you change the load that you would put on like a 10, 80 or something like that, if we're talking about a resisted acceleration, you know, zero to like a 15 yard at the 30 K, something like that. The, would you avoid certain weights at certain times of the year, just because of, you know, some type of issue? And if so, you know, what are you avoiding in season versus what are you avoiding out of season with this development? - Yeah, so last year, when guys first come back, we're gonna start lighter to heavy, right? Just because if I come in and go super heavy off the bat and you, someone's not ready for that, you can get some Achilles or other type issues. So we usually on our acceleration will work light to heavy initially early season, and then going into camp, we go the opposite, right? We've already trained long enough, so we'll go heavy to light. So that way going into camp, we're just getting faster, faster, faster, faster. We also play with, you know, variable load within those groups. So it might be a really heavy load through 10 yards or until they hit a certain speed. So we'll have a heavier weight until they hit a certain velocity, and then we'll have that weight drop off. So they get really good at running back going through the whole pushing, pushing, pushing, and boom, burst, right? So that's kind of the thought process behind some of that. And that will get into more of the nuance of each individual, like where are they losing their velocity, or where they hitting that top velocity and that changes how we change that weight, and what weight what distance? - Yeah, that's a cool thought, and I think it's like, something that a lot of people, I feel like this, that whole speed concept, and that way you just mentioned is like, sort of, and I would attribute a lot of this to less, and to probably student, student McMillan as well, and Dan Paff is like, it's starting to really get put out there, like what this can do, and no offense to any other speed guys, that's who I could think of. Dr. Clark, obviously. Okay, so if I look at, I wanted to pitch this, when we start up training here, so right now it's actually ironically testing week here at Garage Trink, so we got 200 plus athletes that come in, they get tested about every 13 to 16 weeks, and then we use that as a jumping off point, and we sort of see based off of groupings, what type of athletes, or what sports are good at what? We try to pin that correlation to the specific sport, and then we try to get to basically these levels, and say like, okay, this is where they need to get to, to be strong enough, and I wanted to see if you guys had anything, and I'm even thinking, you got someones that come in there, and like, I feel like week one, they might be back squat and 550 pounds, and then you have another kid from Utah, and he's back squat and 315, right? It's like, where is that strong enough point for the position groups in specific lifts? Yeah, a lot of that will go through, so we'll use our three rep max, right, to get just a baseline for all these guys. We'll look at their mid-five pull on the force plate, like how they're producing that force, how much they're doing, and then we've toyed with other positions, besides just the mid-five pull, just an actual press through the force plate and seeing how that looks for certain athletes. But I don't know if there's a sweet spot that we've found, 'cause everybody'll throw out a squat is 1.7 times body weight, and after that, it doesn't translate on field speed, and I'm like, yes and no. I also have guys that if I do 1.7 times their body weight, it's so light that the velocity to range they're in, I'm not touching any form of strength for them, really anymore. So we use that three RM, and we use the force plate data to start bucketing those guys within velocity ranges, and we'll start working those velocity ranges, and we'll early season with our guys, where right now we'll be more like a strength phase, right strength in the power, so we'll just be heavier, and we'll put those velocity ranges on a queen, a squat, and the bench movement, and work through a couple of weeks with our guys. Just to understand where they're at, what did they do this time off? Are their injuries there overcoming? There's so much that happens within football, and there is no break anymore. We have to use this time to kind of assess where our team is actually at. So we don't have a hard cut off on a percentage for those. We have more velocity ranges that will work with early season, and then in the summer that'll change, because we have a better idea of where our team's at at that point. - So you would take someone and tell me if I'm wrong on this, if let's say I squat 200 kilos for a three rep max, and let's say it's a month from now, four weeks out, middle February, or something like that. If I'm hitting your velocity ranges of strength range during this time, and maybe that's one thing of clarity, like strength range versus what other ranges you might have, but then you would say, okay, go on as they're not going below 0.35 meters per second, we're good, is that? Okay, and you might push that strength range, we push for two weeks to eight weeks, I'm just throwing out numbers, but then we move into a specific, maybe in season you're at 0.7 meters per second to one meter per second. Now on the cleans obviously, I think that would be different. I guess maybe that's the question I have is, what are the velocity ranges that you're looking at, and then what would those be on the clean versus a squat in the bench? - Yeah, so, yeah, depending on the time of year, squat in bench, if R3 rep max, we're gonna cut guys before they, we're gonna cut guys early because we need our guys available, but you're probably gonna be a really heavy squat, like nothing's gonna get below 0.35, even 0.4 we're watching. And this is where the coaches got a coach, the bar has to keep moving, we're not letting guys hit sticking points on that, not this early, our freshmen and new guys, we might push a little bit more, just 'cause we really need to see where they're at, but our guys that have been with us for three or four years, we know where they are for the most part. And then a clean, when we're testing for a clean, we just give, we'll go through the weights, we'll coach them up, but then they get one miss, right? Like if they miss on a triple, we're not even, like some guys will clean really slow and some will clean fast, so it's not even a velocity range on that, it's just at this weight did they miss one of the, you know, and that is a true one, one rep on that, right? So if they miss on that, we give them one more shot on that clean. - Okay. - If they miss again, we just cut them. It's for us, the availability on the field means more, and then even more so, like let's live to fight another day, and I don't need them to miss four times at a certain weight on the clean, like, there's nothing, they're not getting it, they're not getting it after one, and they don't get it on the second, they're not getting it on the third. - Yeah, you don't need to prove anything. - No, and that comes from, you know, we know where you're at, weight-wise, close enough that we can then, the coach can then program off that, they don't have to get them on a one rep on the clean. So if you would say 0.35. let's say when they're in that prep period, if they're going right before preseason, would that be like on a squat 0.5 to 0.7 and then an inseason 0.7 or faster or how do you get that out? Yep, so we'll work percentages. Once we have an idea of kind of their working one-wrap max we'll un-delay through the season. So those weeks that will go up to an 80% those weeks that will be at like a 65% 70% based off of by week. Are we traveling to the east coast? And so those percentages, yeah, if we're falling below and 0.6, 0.5 would really like, we'd really call it, but like most of the time knowing your athletes, like, are they struggling through it or are they just not wanting to do the work? But yeah, it's, we'll work off those percentages if we're trying to be faster through it. Each of those percentages right correlate to a velocity range anyway. So we can follow through with that. Yeah, going into preseason, we're not, we're not through at max in a week out of fall camp. We're rolling in the fall camp, feeling healthy, fast, and we'll keep training pretty hard through fall camp so that we're peaking, going into season, we're not peaking going into fall camp. And I think a lot of programs set up to peak for fall camp. That's four and a half weeks and four game one. So we say a little bit deeper. Do you have specific numbers like, let's say with the squat example where you're like, look, if we can get a detackle squat 550 plus, like we don't really need to worry much more. Like very hard numbers, I was thinking bench like, yeah, getting a running back bench in more than 405, right? Like it, that seems absurd. Yeah. Um, we don't have a hard cut off, but it is like a, an exertion. Like you can see it in your guys and we will, we will cut guys accordingly, especially your guys in season who are taking a lot of reps. Like, I know we check in with our guys on force plate and some sleep data through the week. And my guys that are playing a lot Monday, they're pretty tanked. We lift Wednesday morning and check again and they're pretty tanked, but I know they'll be good for Saturday versus my young guys who aren't playing as much. They'll kill it on Monday. They're really worked on Wednesday because they're on scout team and they're lifting a little bit harder and heavier. But I know I don't have to have them quite as peaked for Saturday because I know they're not standing pads on the sideline. So um, it is very much, I love the off season because I get to see who my athletes are and how hard they're pushing. And we have a really good relationship with them that way that in season, when a certain guy comes to me like, hey coach, like I can do that weight, but like this feels terrible. I know if I say, hey, do it or not, like do it because it can be beneficial or we don't need to actually do that because you had 40 touches of running as a running back this weekend and sign up. You're hurting, but I'm, yeah, it's not worth it. And I know you'll be good for Saturday. But I also know you didn't miss a rep all summer. You're doing every single thing right. You got to globally look at the athlete and also like that that's part of coaching is you got to know who they are and they're makeup. Do I need to push this kid and take him in the butt or as he being straight with me and I can, you know, not let off but maybe find a different way to do it. Right, right. Absolutely. How are you tracking the sleep data? Um, we have some wearables we give our guys. Our nutritionist is the main point of contact for that because we will change diet based off of their sleep cycle. So we have like a strap that we can have the guys wear on the wrist. Some guys like the rings we let them do either. We have a weekly check in with that. Just seeing how deep of sleep, how long they're sleeping, how they're recovering, heart rate variability with that. How does that correlate to our force plate jumps? I'm probably the most unique thing that BYU is like every single day I meet with the coordinators in the head coach and we set practice like we fully it's not what do you think it is what are we doing? Um, and they stick to it like I find either guys do more accelerations in practice more top end work. Certain players need to do certain things like we let the position coaches know and they build it into practice. But if we're going for an hour and a half it's an hour and a half like that is the head coach fully gives us that autonomy. Um, and there's always like it's football right there's pushback sometimes like we need to prep longer here or whatever but like I've never been in a program or heard of a program that it's not hey head coach what are we doing today it's like ask for performance staff like they'll tell you what we're doing type which is kudos to them for letting us do our job and following it. For paying to have a job and then listening and that's like I would attribute the health of our team to two things it's our players buying in and our coaches like believe in enough you know like they they listen to it and they let us do our thing what's up guys our podcast and our channel are sponsored by our own strength training app peak strength the entire focus of peak strength is to provide you guys with the absolute best sports performance app that you could ever imagine we build out the programs on the back end we take in all of these different decisions that we learned here on site at garage strength so that we can then apply it to you so you can improve your training so if you guys want to improve your overall sports performance head over to peak strength.app the google play store or the apple ios store download peak strength you'll go to free week of training and then you can start getting on those gains get those reps done so that you can become a champion now let's get back to the video peace. I wanted to ask a question here about nutrition like what's like the bare minimum that you guys you know maybe one or two supplements or even just like yo they got to eat this much protein or they got to have carbs this month before practice like I think this is one thing we're high school kids it's like they have zero clue and is there anything specific that when you see an incoming freshman you're just like yeah we just got to go bare minimums to get them up to speed on nutrition yeah we like bare minimum food before you lift and run like you have to have something in like you got to get something our nutritionist is awesome with what he does like we push real food he uh we have 16 triggers outside and he smokes about 200 pounds of meat a day on top of what they get that steak chicken salmon like that's just snacks for our guys like we do not we try to supplement with real food um dude that's legit yeah it's it's i've never seen like it'll be snowing right like here in the winter and he'll be out there at 4 a.m. with his assistants and they're grilling ribeye, New York chicken thigh chicken breast, salmon and then when you meet with him like here's how many calories you need to eat some guys that might be 4000 it might be 8,000 depending on how they burn they can go eat on our training table and get food but then also you need three you know three chicken breasts and a steak today as well like and it's like it's it's pretty cool i it i've never seen them a place that's done it like that and i think it's the best you can do to actually get real food to be like i guess maybe that's another point right there like real food is your fuel you know right right they're getting steak they're getting rice they're getting vegetables we have protein shakes but like it's a supplement it supplements your food right so we want our guys taking creative team we want our guys on vitamin D omega-3 magnesium but above all like get real food in and get food in before before you lift before you practice especially if we're trying to build like you can't you're not going to build muscle you're not going to get faster you're not going to get stronger if you're nervous system if your body's not fueled up and ready to go yeah absolutely okay one final thing here this is a random one almost every program talks about that i've talked to coaches wise they'll talk about like a fast Friday or you've got to hit this percentage of their their top end speed on a weekly basis in season to so that we know we can at least maintain that speed is there like a standard standard that you guys follow as far as maintaining that speed in season so that they're able you know to just keep that that up to the level that your your expectation is yeah we found um 92 to 95 percent max velocity two season is what we shoot for uh you don't get it in practice so that's where we on on our we did it on Monday this year but um we'd go through an extensive warm up we treat it like a speed day like we we actively hit that speed um we want our guys to hit it twice a week if we can so Monday Thursday is usually a good split um the way our defense runs practice and offense runs practice is very different you know the defense can run a little bit faster be a little bit more reactive because that's the name of the game for them versus the offense might have to install a little slower So our skill guys and combo guys on the offensive side, we usually have to supplement again later in the week. Because when they're running around, like even if it's a deep, you know, post or whatever, it's 17 miles an hour or 18 miles an hour, really it's not. It's not close to where they need to be. So we'll supplement that in again. And then we monitor it like we'll go through phases where different position groups are getting slower or faster depending on what practice looks like. So we just make sure our coaches know what we're seeing. But ideally, if you can hit 100% twice a week, that'd be great. But above 92% is kind of what we aim for. And some of that soreness fatigue of the year. And also kind of risk risk reward. Like I need them to get fast. I need them to touch speed. I don't need 10 reps of it. I just need to, you know, twice a week to just get up and touch that. Is there is there anything that you would correlate in the weight room with that? Like like if let's say you have a guy that's that's beat up. He can't run that. Would you say like, okay, let's back squat at 0.8 meters per second or something or or, you know, I guess. Yeah, like like almost a check in for the weight room kind of. Yeah, yeah, that would almost be a similar. Like maybe neural check in. Yeah. We use the force plate for it. I would, I would the easiest way to like if you had a jump mat. I would almost correlate my jump height. Like I'll look at. We'll follow, you know, jump height through the season. But also there's other metrics we look at like time to take off. Yeah. Reactive strength index like what are those doing? And that means more to me like all will help set practice off of some of those numbers that we look at. Ideally, we want our guys in season though. We're touching a hinge pattern, a squat pattern, a push or pull like the big meat and potatoes. If they can't get through that. Then it's a conversation to be had a kid of like if there's an injury. But we'll still work our way around it. We'll still modem out of certain things. If they have a low back in the back squats, not right. Maybe it's a Bulgarian split squat. Maybe it's a belt squat. Maybe it's a leg press. But we'll still touch a movement. Not necessarily a velocity range that tells me they're ready for that. I use the force plate more for that. Yeah, I think that's where I'm my selfish reason is I'm like my wife has already told me we're not allowed to get a force plate at garage strength. So I can't I can't use it. I'm trying to figure out like okay, is it is it vert? Is it bar speed on the back squat? Because I'm even thinking about for peaking. Yeah, when we're traveling, you know, I have. There's a go ahead. We'll take I take a little like output sports makes a little track puking. I take that with us on road games and I'll have guys do. Like a five yard sprint. I'll have him do some pogo single leg pogo's and then like a counter movement jump. But that gives me a good insight. So even when we're traveling, if I don't have it on a bar, that's a little thing that I can check you in with. Okay. And yeah, we do that through the season. We'll do it with our quarterbacks with some rotational movements as well. But yeah, there is bar speed stuff you could track is we run into the issue of if someone is so beat up, they can't put a bar on their back. Yeah, but they can play football. Like then I run into well, how can I track that? Yeah, it's not worth tracking them safety bar squatting some stupid. Yeah, that's not. Or like belt squatting a bunch of weight like it. You still hit the squat, but it's not telling me as much as yeah, that makes sense. All right, Doc, thanks for being on the podcast. I've got a ton of notes and I and it's like, I think the biggest thing here for me was like how. Basically every single thing is impacting something else and and how that can piece through how and how you guys piece that through laying out that that that season in the beginning of the year. So I'm going to wrap for you know through spring ball and then prep for the season and then that in season. So I appreciate this quite a bit. No, I appreciate you having me on and I think coach Villa such Frank's coach he can he can deep dive into the program side of it for you. Okay. He's either the man with the plan on that. But yeah, it's I get a I get to be in a unique position where. I get to have kind of this high level look into all of it. And have conversations with our coaches of the like hey we're seeing you know we're trying to work on some acceleration stuff. What do we think about changing this this and this and we can discuss it. But the deep dive into you know sets reps every little nuance of that like they're the guys that that kill it. I get to sit in on those conversations and and have say but they're they're the real work horses behind that so they they'd be. Probably someone to peak your interest on that too. Okay, why might be sending you a DM to see if they would they would join join us on a podcast. Yeah, for sure. Alright, thanks a lot. Yes, appreciate you guys. [Music]