The New Science of Explosive Training w/ Exercise Scientist Dr. Kristof Kipp

The best sprinters in the world for them to run faster, they have a shorter contact time, but they're probably in most cases expressing a higher amount of force in a shorter contact. Sprinting is a really interesting example. The faster you sprint, the shorter the contact times get, and for elite level sprinters, you know, like 100 milliseconds, they're definitely faster than even mostly refazes in the discus. The elite level sprinters do something a little bit interesting when they actually increase the force more so during the first half with a stance phase. They can geek out over it, they teach some of them my swimming and fishing classes. We're going to get into the biomechanics of explosive training and we're going to start right. No! I was privileged enough to sit down and do a podcast with Dr. Christoff Kip. He does research and analyzes the biomechanics of some of the most explosive athletes on the entire planet, throwers, weightlifters, basketball players. He looks at all of these different athletes and we're going to talk about impulse based training, power output, speed, explosiveness. These are all things that you guys are going to be able to take. You're going to be able to hear you're going to have a greater understanding from that science based perspective and then we're going to talk a little bit about how you can apply this and become an explosive freak. Sit down, take notes, make sure you have your notebook ready because we are diving deep. Now let's sit down with Dr. Christoff Kip. We are live for a garage ranked podcast here in Ramona, Oklahoma where we are fortunate enough to have Dr. Christoff Kip. He's a world renowned biomechanist. Dr. Kip, welcome to our podcast. I'm extremely excited to ask you a lot of complicated questions that will leave me confused but hopefully we can digest and decipher your answers and provide some resolutions for the for the audience. So thanks for being on the podcast. Thanks, Dan. I'm equally excited to be here with you today. It's shaping up to be a great weekend, hopefully for some big throws and feel free to call me Christoff. We know each other a little bit. So you keep this as informal as you want. Okay. And let's get into it. Yeah, so I want to I want to go right into the fact that you guys are here. We have a throwing event and a lot of people that might be watching are listening. They're into like sports performance and anything along those lines of like how to become more athletic, more explosive, more powerful, more impulsive. And I I wanted to like dive right into what what specifically at an event like this would would you be gathering to sort of you know what what what data would you be looking to gather to identify specific aspects of throwing or even of you know output from from an athlete. Yeah, so we are here with our e-camera, maritalist motion capture system. So we're out this morning already and set up the camera around the circle. And what we're looking for is actually we would like to do recordings of pretty much every single throw in the competition. Then we use our motion capture cameras to run the data that we collect through a software program that allows us to create avatars of the throwers as they're going through the entire throw. And from that data we're able to basically answer any questions about body positions, joint angles, even down to how athletes generate some of the momentum and impulses that you're describing. And hopefully look at you know what happens when they throw far and when they maybe not throw not so far. Yeah that would probably be that's actually probably this is the easiest way that you should or this is the definite way that you should not throw. And then yeah, so it helps having a spread right. If you have a guy come on close 70 meters on every single throw it's just a very descriptive project of this is what you do well. But we have some throws that are a little bit better, a little bit worse right even if was like we talked earlier reaching pretty good release velocities but the flight wasn't as good. I think that all it provides is with very good information to them maybe take back and say and tease that apart a little bit more of what helps a person throw well. What did they do well on a long throw versus a throw that maybe even didn't go as far. Right. So is this something that you got your PhD from Oregon State is this what you researched or were interested in when you were in college or and then and then getting your doctorate or how did you get into this specifically. So it probably depends on how far you want me to go back but as I was like when you were seven years old. So I used to throw in college. I used to throw at Boise State. So I got my bachelor's and master's Boise State University and was pretty fortunate to be around a lot of great throwers at the time and then you have some unique roommate stories. Yeah we'll share those maybe a little bit later. But yeah shout out to some of the friends from back then. But yeah I got into got into throwing and as most throwers probably can sort of identify what you always try and look for ways to get better and I was going to school doing exercise signs undergraduate degree or kinesiology undergraduate degree and like the physics and math aspect and of course throwing there's a lot of that built into the technique. And so yeah pretty much when I was doing my undergraduate degree at Boise State it was in a kinesiology program was fortunate enough to get a start in a biomechanics lab during my senior year and then stayed on for my masters and sort of transitioned out from the throwing world and not actively throwing because I was a fairly mediocre thrower I would say. Yeah especially compared to part of people who are in that training group like Jert Rom and Iron Walls back then. Right. Stuff on if you're listening to this. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. The garage strength podcast is sponsored by our own strength training app peak strength. Are you a former athlete and you're struggling to be consistent. You're struggling to have that creative workout plan. You don't even know how to set up a workout split for the entire week. That's exactly what we do for you guys inside of peak strength. If you click that first link in the description or you head over to the Apple iOS store if you own an iPhone or go to the Google Play Store you can download peak strength. Once you download peak strength make sure that you go in you put in your email. Send in your email and then I want you guys to select athletic fitness. Okay. Once you get into that athletic fitness program now you can figure out if you want to focus a little more on speed or muscle mass or even just doing more explosive work. That athletic fitness program is going to help you guys get your feet back under you to be more consistent. We're going to provide you with that perfect training split that's going to fit your schedule. Now let's get back to talking to Dr. Kristoff Kip. But yeah so I started my master's working in a biomechanics lab and my thesis project at that time was actually on post activation, potentiation strategies for throres. So looking at shop with performance after a different warm up protocols. Say the title of that again. Post activation, potentiation. Post activation. Post activation. Post activation. Post activation. Potentiation. Okay. So how can we potentiate force output with different warm up strategies. And so we use some of the throres that we had on the Boise State Tract Team for that. And then most of that experience, throwing and also did some weight lifting research sort of stopped at that point when I transitioned into my PhD. It was a little bit more away from the sports performance side and a little bit more down the clinical side. So I want to actually go into what you just referred to with post activation, potentiation in there. I just recently read a paper on like a back squat method using a back squat to potentiate kicking power for Moe tie fighters. And I was sort of comparing that and they had like the minutes of rest and stuff. But I wanted to go into specifically in the realm of throwing, you know, the discussion around like Ryan Krauser, you know, this past year he did a, I guess you could in theory call it a post activation, potentiation session in the morning. And then like 12 hours later competed. And even there's some some papers I want to say there was one recent or one from 2018 where they went into, they saw post activation being more effective with like 24 hours of, I guess, would you refer to as latency maybe? What are the different different time courses, I think, for these effects? Yeah, it's been a while. I mean since that project and so it's not my realm of expertise anymore. But at the time, definitely, well, we're looking at the effects of any sort of priming or potentiating exercise. With it in workout? Yeah, within a workout. And they're always sort of long term, short term effects, fitness and fatigue effects that you're trying to balance. Okay. And of course, people will respond differently depending on the training status, depending on their strength, relative to whatever potentiating activity you choose. Right. So if it's a super heavy lift potentially, and you have an individual who tends to be on the weaker side, they might not be able to handle that as well. Yeah, that's possible. Yeah. So that was one of the things we're sort of trying to tease out again with throwers at the college level. You'd never have that large training groups. They're not able to count for all variables, but those part of the idea as well as that we try to use a push jerk exercise to potentially a shopper performance. Okay. So something pretty specific, but you can overload musculature that's directly related to performance in the event versus just a sort of normal standard warm-up like you would have in company. - Right, okay. So I guess that takes me into, I think some of the things around sports performance or maybe even based off your shirt, the athletic and human performance. I think there's like a real, maybe inconsistent or confusing environment around terminology. And it's like, I think one of the areas of struggle possibly that strength coaches might have is the use of terms that they might read in research. And then they internally interpret it one way, but it could not, you know, it may potentially not even mean specifically the definition that they're trying to use. So I did wanna bring up real quickly. If there was like some easy way to define words like power or force or strength and impulse even and maybe how you, is there a specific or easy task that maybe you could recommend or, you know, your coworkers have discussed possibly like, hey, maybe these are terms that we can use consistently in research that the strength and conditioning world could adopt and maybe improve their usage of these terms. And I don't know if you have any thoughts on that or. - Yeah, so first thing that comes to mind is I had a friend in grad school and he would always tell us that the first step to wisdom is calling things by the right name. - Yeah, yeah. - And so I think, you know, proper definitions definitely important. That said, I also wanna try to acknowledge that there's a point where you can be overly pedantic as well. We might be talking about the same thing and if you're conveying the idea correctly then it might not be as much of an issue. But definitely things on the research side, I would try to be very careful when we try to write articles that then people will hopefully read, right? That they'll just sit in journals on shelves. Yeah, and I think power is one of those ones that comes up a lot. And I would say there's been quite a bit of literature that's been published actually about power and misnomers and misuse of the term power. And I guess when you're thinking from a physics perspective and the easiest way or one of the simplest way, we can define power as the rate of doing work. That's probably a good starting point. So we can calculate power as a product or as sort of taking the mechanical work that somebody produces and measure that via an output somehow and then accounting for the time that it takes somebody to complete that work. Okay, so that's a good starting definition. Some other way is you can get to the units of power calculating wattage essentially and you can get there in a couple of different ways as well by either taking force, but multiply by the velocity. It gets a little bit tricky depending on how you then calculate the force as well. And identify force. Aside from the bending of the space time continuum. (laughing) No, I think for, I mean, when some of the research that we do, right, when we, for some of the weightlifting research, probably easiest way to start. So for weightlifting, we start with obviously, we're lifting a barbell, so we have the mass of the barbell. We multiply that by the gravitational constant. And the sort of gravitational force that's acting on that. And so, yeah, it's the sort of pole that's exerted by the force of gravity on that barbell. And then we try to measure or calculate the forces that the lifter is then applying to the barbell to overcome the gravitational force. And so again, they're exerting a pulling force on the barbell and the sort of net, some of that is then what we're absorbing, why that's like how fast we accelerate the barbell. What velocity does the barbell reach a certain stage throughout the left? - Okay. Yeah, I mean, that's still like, it's almost just hearing that when you're, when you're even just defining force, it's still. - How it's gonna be measured is gonna be very, very, I feel like it could be a great, a big gray area possibly. Maybe that the methods of measuring it, that how somebody might determine force output. - Yeah, I think with sort of the proliferation of ways to measure power via apps or other technologies and devices, having an idea of the way that people are doing that or the way that the data's produced or output it, I think is important. Yeah, and then there's some potential pitfalls by not accounting for all the forces, right? If you only look at the gravitational force acting on the barbell, it's super easy to calculate because you know the mass, you know, the gravitational constant, that's the force, but you can multiply that then by the speed, right? So if you have a velocity measuring device, you can take the product of that. That is a sort of quasi-power output measure, but you know, the accounting for the actual force that the lifter is applying to overcome the force of gravity. - Right, right, okay. - So you're missing certain pieces, right? And then of the puzzle potentially, right? How would you define impulse in? So impulse, again, mechanically, force supplied over a certain period of time. So if you're, again, going back to the weightlifter example, I mean, the weightlifter exerts a pulling force on the barbell if they pull for half a second or one second, we take that force that they're exerting on the barbell to move the barbell. And yeah, look at the product of those. - Okay. Now, I mean, I almost feel like when you're referring to impulse in that sense, okay, that's where I'm gonna, I'm gonna say impulse in that sense to me, sounds like the way you adhere power used in the world of strength and conditioning. Is that, I mean, maybe, is that an accurate or inaccurate analysis? I mean, I'm even thinking through that and I'm going like, - No, I think you're sort of on the right track. I think from a physics-based perspective, some people would say we should start with first principles and first principles would say that we start with the impulse momentum relationship, which is an easier way to think about what you're doing rather than calculating power as sort of a secondary variable based on the amount of work that you're doing, which again, it's depending on how much force you're producing. And so I totally agree that I think in most cases, thinking about force applied over time, like leads to an outcome, right, a change in velocity of an object you're trying to throw and an object you're trying to lift. It's probably an easier way. Might not be quote unquote as sexy as talking about power outputs. - I mean, it even just, yeah, yeah, I think that's accurate, but I even was just thinking I'm like, you're talking about power outputs or whatever, but why is there not like, you know, almost to steal your term, they're sexy? Why not have like, okay, this is for this type of sport, let's say it's a sport like weightlifting or throwing. This is the time, the optimal time of force application that leads to, you know, a large amount of impulse display or expression. And then you could look at us, maybe a sport like sprinting, when they're sprinting, this is like the optimal time that we see. And then you look at a sport, like I'm trying to think through the lens of these other sports that might be over a longer period of time. I don't know if that, maybe I'm going down the wrong hole here of like identifying timelines for specific sports to then understand how to optimize their performance. Does that make sense or not? Over that go back to power. - So I'm trying to unravel all that. - Yeah. - Or, no, I think, again, I think the way what you describe it, where you started from getting into certain position, applying force in the correct way, right, over a certain amount of time, I think that's the way that we should think about it. And you could apply that same perspective or apply that lens at two different sports. And so the sprinting example is another one, right, is that where you have to produce very high-gram reaction forces in order to run fast. The interesting thing about sprinting is the fastening around the less time you have to produce that force. - Right. - So there are certainly these trade-offs, where even though we say we want to maximize impulse, you can't just say, well, produce as much force over as long as the time is possible. So there are different task constraints that feed into that. - Right. - And maybe that's where we, right, maybe collectively, strength coaches, people in academia, right, it's not being as deliberate or just not applying those lenses rigorously within those constraints. - So when you see, okay, so thinking through that lens with time, when you've broken down or when you've analyzed data from weightlifting, right? Like, what would be, let's just say, data from weightlifting, right? lifting. What would be the time period of force application on like a snatch for on average or maybe with like the elite lifters that you've analyzed that have been on stipend from USA weight lifting. So pretty freaking elite like you've some world champion some Olympic caliber. >> Yeah, World Record Holder. >> Yeah, so what have you seen as like that timeline of force application for weight lifting, let's say. >> Yeah, so into to make it easier we'll just talk about the pull phase. >> Okay. >> So first pull transition second pull, which yeah, I mean time time frames frames for the snatch anywhere from 700 milliseconds, maybe 800 milliseconds or so. So definitely less than a second. >> Okay. >> And clean and jerk definitely varies a little bit more, but right around that one second mark. >> Well, been easy, easy sort of just mental anchor. Why does that you think of the clean and jerk as or sorry, just to say into clean, the pulling phase into clean as. Last thing about one second, snatch being a little bit faster 200 milliseconds or so. >> Do you see, okay, so then it's like now you if we would shift that to let's say. I'm trying, I'm pretty sure you are correct me if I'm wrong, but have you done research on long jump? >> No. >> Okay. >> Dang it, I thought you did. Okay, let's go the throwing. Okay, we're in throwing then. We take the timeline now. Let's say a clean pull phase is a second, snatch maybe 700 milliseconds. What would the timeline be of application? Let's say for discus throw of, and I guess how do you measure that too and where you differentiating like the back to the middle to the front? How is that? >> Yeah, I mean the discus throw, and if you talk about the time periods of force production, and I guess if we break down the throw temporally, right, coming out of the bag, double support, single support, flight phase, second single support, or transition phase, and then your second double support or release phase. >> Okay. >> And so those all might have different, I think somewhat through or specific, right, you have different temporal signatures if you will. But let's say I think the release phase, if you look at you definitely looking at less than a quarter of a second, less than 250 milliseconds, where both feet are grounded and you're trying to produce as much force into the ground, trying to maximize the transition of creation of angular momentum, and trying to transfer that out into the discus. >> What's up guys, our podcast and our channel are sponsored by our own strength training app, Peak Strength. The entire focus of Peak Strength is to provide you guys with the absolute best sports performance app that you could ever imagine. We build out the programs on the back end. We take in all of these different decisions that we learned here on site at Garage Strength, so that we can then apply it to you so you can improve your training. So if you guys want to improve your overall sports performance, head over to Peak Strength.app, the Google Play Store or the Apple iOS Store. Download Peak Strength, you'll go to free week of training and then you can start getting on those gains, get those reps done so that you can become a champion. Now let's get back to the video. Peace. >> So do you feel that there is any data out there that could show or could not show, or maybe there's not data yet? I don't know, around something like a pole period, be it, I would assume it would probably be more of a weightlifting derivative type movement. >> A quicker than that. >> A quicker movement pattern, relative. If this individual at 700 can display a large amount of force there also, if they're trained technically in another sport that has a shorter time frame of force application that will likely have a greater carryover. >> Yeah, and so, I guess, depending on how you want to talk about carryover, if it's just based on the temporal structure of that lift, you're right, and I think that you would have to go do something like weightlifting derivative. If you want to match time frame of force application, either poles from a hang, kind of movement shrugs, where you're also sort of by extension, no pun intended, you're lessening the range of motion. So, shortening the time range of motion that you just try and look for a maximal force output from the legs in a quarter second or so. >> I guess that's an interesting, I'm going to get a little off top, well, maybe not entirely off topic here, but one thing that we tend to use is we'll use boxes, especially with like football players, and we'll have one or two box heights. And I've always like to improve that load on the bar from one or two boxes because the range of motion is shortened. And in theory, in my theory, I don't know if this is accurate. If the range of motion is shorter, but someone can, let's say somebody can clean 160 kilos from the floor. If they could clean 160 kilos from a 12-inch height, theoretically, that individual would likely be displaying a higher level of impulse because the pulling length is shorter. Pulling length is shorter. >> The distance would be the-- >> You would probably still need similar velocity, endpoint velocity in order to turn the bar over. >> Right. >> And then, so they would have a greater rate of force development in theory. They would still reach the same peak velocity, probably. >> Yeah, I guess it would be interesting to see, because if I guess if they reach the same peak velocity, they reach the same velocity with whatever variation, it means that they're creating the same impulse. >> But if the time is shorter, yeah, then you're-- >> Right. So that's-- yeah. >> Right. >> These are fun discussions to have, because then you get into the sort of individual determinants of, like, that impulse and trying to dial that in. I do think there's enough data on sort of broad research data on what the poles look like from the blocks. I think there's a little bit more from the hang. Like, see what you're getting at. Why does-- the other thing is that you're from the blocks, you're from concentric only, versus maybe using the stress shortening cycle or some sort of-- >> Off of a hang. >> Off of a hang. >> Right. I guess my next question then would be, if you're looking at-- yeah, I'm trying to think through the lens then with the sprinting, because you had mentioned earlier, like, how the best sprinters in the world for them to run faster, they have a shorter contact time, but they're probably, in most cases, expressing a higher amount of force in a shorter contact period, contact time. How is that similar-- you know, because when you just mentioned, like, you know, 250 milliseconds at the release for a discus throw, how might that be similar to the ground reaction force that a discus thrower might be expressing when they're in that single support period in the middle of the circle to the finish? Like, is there any research on ground reaction forces in throwing and the impact of-- I think-- oh, yeah, I guess that would be the-- I'll stop there. >> Yeah, sprinting is a really, really interesting example, because, like I said, the fast-use sprint, the short of the contact times get, and for elite level sprinters, you know, like 100 milliseconds, so definitely faster than even, you know, mostly refazes in the discus. And then elite level sprinters do something a little bit interesting when they actually increase the force more so during the first half of their stance phase. I mean, I'm not that much of an expert on sprinting, but I can talk to this a little bit, because I can geek out a little bit, because I teach some of them my streaming addition classes. >> Right. >> But yeah, with respect to discus throwing-- or actually, any throwing event, there's actually very little force plate data out there. Right now, if I think top of my head, I think there's one study that looked at the force plate based analysis of the discus throw. And for any throwers who are out there, right? LJ Sylvester was one of the co-authors on that study. So I think it was at the time one of the rings at one of the old me training, so it was actually instrumented with force plates. That's sort of what you get into. And you need fairly large force plates, that would be sunken into the ground. You need to have some platforms sort of built around. So they're not easy studies to do. That's-- we brought some portable force plates here with us. >> Yeah, so we have to use them. >> Yeah. >> Or at least try to try to do something, even if there's just some stand through it. >> I see. Just-- I just thought, yeah, I may might be thrown today. I don't know if she would be willing to put that in her shoe. She might. >> Oh, those are the insol-- yeah, so we also-- we brought those pressure in-- >> I wouldn't pressure me, we-- >> She's also-- she might be willing to do that. >> She could definitely put them on if she wants them-- >> If she doesn't feel it, she probably would do it. >> Yeah. >> Not to go too off. I think that's like a-- I guess that might take us into-- what are the tendencies that you would see in someone or-- based off the data like that you might see in an individual. who can successfully produce a large amount of angular momentum or maybe even even deeper. Well yeah, let's just start with that. >> Discuss throwing? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, specific to discus throwing, sorry. >> Yeah, so there's a couple really interesting things about when you're talking about angular momentum and the discus throw, right? So we know from previous work that over 90% of the horizontal and vertical release velocity components are due to angular momentum that's generated, right? So angular momentum, let's just say, and then transverse plane. So rotating around your vertical axis, right? And it seems that one of the major things, the main things that sort of interest is that most of the angular momentum that throws generators actually out of the back of the circle, most throwers will slow down or decrease in the angular momentum that the entire system contains as they go through the middle. And some will be able to either create a little bit more angular momentum in the release or at least maintain whether at. >> Okay. >> And so then, right, if you're saying a lot of angular momentum is good for reaching high release velocities, most throwers actually generate most of the angular momentum they have out of the back. So coming out of the back of the circle, really, really important. And so optimizing, optimizing the creation of angular momentum out of the back, really important. And so when you think of the way that we can do that, we can only generate or increase change the angular momentum of the system when our feed-on contact with the ground. And so we have different ways that we can increase that angular momentum. We can manipulate sort of how we're pushing into the ground. We can use our limbs and space, right? So most discous throws, right? We sort of think about how we're using the left arm coming out of the back, right leg sweep action out of the back. Right? So we have our, call those are free limbs, right? The limbs are sort of in space that we're trying to manipulate and trying to manipulate them to optimize that creation of angular momentum out of the back. >> Really think there it's like, okay, if you're creating this, I mean, creating angular momentum, the hard thought I feel like is to move quickly, you feel like you have to, and you have to, you have to be grounded to create, to generate greater angular momentum. But the issue then is that you're pushing into the ground and that can also result in you leaving the ground if you think about it in a specific way of like extension. And then that in turn leads to your inability to create anymore. >> And that's where, I mean, you asked earlier about the definition of, right? >> Certain definitions. I think one definition of strength in a way is, right? >> Yeah, I'll take you and answer that question by the way. >> Yeah, I waited until this because I knew this was coming. >> Yeah. >> Is it, right? The expression of strength is sort of like optimal expression of force in the right direction or in the, having the directional components. And so I think you're right, right? If you're pushing really, really hard in a direction that's not optimal, you might be extending, you might be jumping up too high. So the definitely, that's the technique component to the expression of strength. And so most of these things, we talk about these as being vector, quantities, right? So it's not just how much force you're generating, but also what is the direction of that force? >> Yeah. >> So this is again, having some force-play data would be amazing because with the force plates, we'd be able to say not just how much force you're ultimately generating and pushing into the ground with, but what is that essentially, what is the, sort of moment arm of that vector with respect to our center of mass? And so can you explain how, like, the aspect of vectors for everybody as simply as possible? So, sure, so vector, right? I mean, when we talk about these sort of quantities that we're talking about forces, velocities, they have a magnitude. So how fast are you releasing the discos? The 22 meters per second, but then we also want to know what is the direction of that velocity component? So is it just, is it, are you generating 22.4 meters per second at a very, very low angle? >> Yeah. >> Which is easier to do than I try to produce that vector, or produce that velocity at a vector of about 70 degrees. And so same idea that if you're, if you're doing a three-dimensional sort of motion, like in the disk, where you're turning, pushing hard, it's kind of an easy thing to do, but you have to be able to push in just the right direction, be balanced, right? And so the creation of that angular momentum is dependent on how you controlling the direction of how you're pushing into the ground, how you're angling, I don't say how you're angling, but so like shin angle out of the back, you know, the important thing. So if that, you know what would be interesting to know is how actually related is that to the force vector, the ground reaction forces that you're producing? >> So do you think there's any correlation between, or is there any evidence of correlation between specific lifts or specific movement patterns being done optimally that can enhance the creation of angular momentum while exiting the back of the circle in a rotational throw? >> So evidence, I would say scientific evidence now, right? I totally don't want to discount. Like when we have these conversations and I guess there's a lot of anecdotal evidence, and so some of us will have these conversations with coaches, right? Even with the weightlifting stuff we do, there's a lot of just innate sort of knowledge that they have and that they bring, and probably more often than not is something that when we find, it's like, yeah, this is exactly what some of the coaches said, right? >> Right, right. >> You say weightlifting camps when pirou says more speed to the middle, it's like, oh, that's what the velocity, sort of velocity tracking actually shows. >> It's interesting you brought that up. It's like not to get away from the question I pose about lifts that can help generate more angular momentum, but one thing that's unique, and I think that a lot of people do struggle with is when they're reading a study or a paper. It's like, how do they synthesize the information and then say, like, okay, this paper refers to this aspect, how can I improve it? And even looking at, like, some of the research you've guys done and you've analyzed a couple of our lifters, Haley, I remember, had this weird movement pattern where there was like, on her snatch, there was this weird issue with ground contact after she had finished her pull. And what was interesting is, we couldn't figure out what was going on, but then I was watching her lift at our gym while watching the video that you got or watching the graphs and seeing that her right foot would slide out, then reapply force, and then slide out even further. And it's like, you know, I know I'm going away from the discussion, but it was an interesting way to take the data that you had sort of discovered, and then apply it and be like, okay, how can I, in an applied setting, get Haley to slide her feet without having the hiccup of the slide? I don't know if that's clear, but it's like, then I can see the video and I exactly remember that conversation. Yeah, so I guess the hard part then becomes is like, how is it, how can we have, let's say, or how do you see using all this data or information that you might read on, like, I like to just go on PubMed and all this type in random search thoughts that I'm having, like, bench press, shop put, see if there's any papers, right? Like, or a back squat, vertical jump, see if there's any papers. How do you think, you know, strength and conditioning coaches can take this information that sports or human performance researchers are analyzing or gathering. What's like the easiest way if they don't have the privilege to talk to you in a direct conversation? How would you think that somebody can optimize like a coach? How can they optimize figuring out these are the movements that might help you create more ground reaction forces to generate better angular momentum in the disk and also at the same time, these are ways that you can decide. I would say, just reach out. I mean, most of us, you know, scientists who sit in the ivory tower and do these studies, they were more than happy to talk to people who are interested about this. Yeah, for sure. And I'd say, right, if you're reading studies, there's always a typically a list of authors and as a corresponding author, yeah, I would always say just reach out. I mean, it's most likely people are more than happy to talk about the work that they do. Yeah, that will say, I mean, sort of just to add, I think it's been a really sort of neat and almost a like fulfilling experience to do some of this work with USA Weightlifting, working with some of the coaches and athletes, more one-on-one because it takes us away from just thinking about doing research for researchers' sake or because they're It would look cool in publication, but actually doing this work to hopefully improve People's performance and help them you know make more teams right to the Olympics and just the experience of going through that and having these Conversations where you know with the coaches in terms of these are some things that we that we find right sort of matter of fact of Force paid analysis of our path analysis and maybe some additional things But then having these conversations of what are you guys actually look for what is something that you would like to see in the next analysis? I didn't right and for sort of three years as an ongoing process and trying to hone that in a little bit more and so Yeah, I think it's been a great experience overall. So hopefully we can do that for the discuss. Yeah, today after collect more data more data here I'm gonna come back to the other question real quick. I don't want to skirt the question about Resistance training exercises looking at force production and carry over I will say I think one of the really difficult things is that Forces right the kinetics of the exercise is typically not something that you observe right we observe the kinematics Just the movement pattern. Yeah, but oftentimes you're the best guest as to what actual sequence of muscle activations or What forces that you created actually led to that outcome? And so just think about the USA weightlifting example where we have the the force plates in the ground way able to use that as part of this You know more robust overall lift analysis. I think provides us with some information on that. Yeah You know, it's interesting is like sitting here. I'm thinking about I was even just thinking about I was thinking about Mary actually and I'm like I wonder if there's some way to break down some of her performances in in research and comparing it to throwers Because she was a thrower and how she's transitioned so well What are the similarities and she was I'm pretty sure like a multiple time D3 all American like very solid in the throwing realm So I guess it's just like an interesting discussion around that where it's like You need that guy will flammying to come on this podcast. Yeah exactly But yeah, I agree. I think it'll be really interesting if you had video or yet analysis and to see like what sort of again the Movement profile that she exhibit or use to to throw far right and what was the temporal structure of the throw Yeah, because that would be a perfect sort of case study of what was the carryover of their specific characteristics So so would you say it basically is like okay? If you as a strength and conditioning coach if you can analyze the The vectors or the vector or consistent vectors so if you have like to me I'm a if you're looking at like a close skilled sport like weightlifting. I mean like relatively Close yeah close skilled if you can analyze the vector of the of the of the force Application there, but then you look at open skilled sports like Football American football or or lacrosse or something it really would come down to analyzing the Analyzing the force the most consistent force application or kinetic would it be the kinetic application relative to those sports The similarity like to a to a sport like football Analyzing the the way that the forces applied in those specific vectors and Then trying to train that way or trying to find the best movement patterns that will transfer to those Those sports. Yeah, so seeing what the Yes, overall what you want to know is what's the what's the level of transfer you could expect right between different exercises a different sports Yeah, I'm trying to create bot mechanical analyses um, and then the toolbox is to allow you to to take A task right so throwing is so somewhat easier right throwing a weightlifting because you have Um, I'm a man. I see that Um, you have a limited number of tasks, but when you talk about American football the number of skills or tasks that people perform as part of their sports and conditioning right in there When they have to perform those tasks obviously is a these as you said earlier it's a more open Open environment and so their ability to be Just their adaptability that be able to respond to different conditions in the environment is probably more important Yeah, yeah, certainly right throwing it to be able to adapt to circles or faster or slower or different the different weather conditions Um, as well, but yeah, I think that would be I mean super fun sort of Project to carry out probably take a lot, but at this point we're just sort of speculating I've got one final question before we close this out and then I might after we are done I might beg you to do another one of these tomorrow, but I will talk about that later Um, I'm thinking about one discussion that I I thought was interesting was you had mentioned um Some weightlifters have great vertical jumps and some of them do not you know But you know on the grand scheme of when you're analyzing their their data they they all are Strong in this traditional sense. So what what would be the differentiating factor between Those athletes that are strong and can jump well and those athletes that are strong and don't necessarily jump as well as They're they're you know maximal. Yeah, I was I was mowing this over because we briefly at this conversation yesterday And it might actually get back to this idea of what sports my what is there Sports participation background. Okay um Certainly I mean most of the weightlifters who've come to the camps that we host at Marquette Um, right there are phenomenal jumpers in terms of jump height I jump height being primarily determined by how much concentric impulse you produce right they're all very good at Once they at the bottom of the squad of the bottom of their kind of movement They can turn things on pretty rapidly, but how they get there very quite a bit And so it seems like for some of them Again jumping is not their main sport, right? But it seems like if they wanted to improve their vertical jump performance you could probably do some Training in terms of trying to optimize their force time curve profiles if you will Um, yeah, that was just sort of I settled on that yesterday after thinking this over a little bit more So sports background where they come from if they have a lot of experience jumping in their previous sports so you imagine some come from gymnastics Jumping and landing is a big part of what they do Some kids who never right did that much they start lifting weights and found out they're good at it And they find their way into weightlifting that way yeah, so if you never done much um Sort of stepping into a jump right doing that training But I think the common thread was that yeah, once you hit the bottom they're able to turn things on Rapidly my pretty astonishingly and just maximize that concentric impulse Okay, that helps All right, Dr. Kip Kristoff. Thank you for being on the podcast and I hope we helped some people And if not just keep rewatching this over and over again and Maybe we'll have another one in the future. Yeah, I'll probably feel free to reach out with any questions Have to answer any emails and Until next time guys peace. So