The New Funnel High-Ticket Coaches Use Instead of Webinars

Today, I want to share with you a really specific way of converting people into your 2K to 8K office. So if you've gotten offered in that range, I want to share with you a really specific method that has generated millions of dollars for people who have implemented this and it involves not talking to anybody on the call, no DMs, not all that good stuff are really automated but really exciting new funnel and there is a little catch with this, but I'll tell you about that after this special magical intro video. Hello, welcome back to the show, it's Kennedy, if you haven't already, make sure you hit subscribe on the YouTube channel because I'm making many videos a week now and you don't want to miss out on them and so yeah, otherwise you will miss out on them and what's crazy to me is like, I think only 25% of the people who watch in these videos will actually subscribe which is wild so make sure you're one of those people hit subscribe. So here's the really cool thing about this. We all know we need to be growing our list, we've all got our great offers but the problem is there's this big void in the middle where we need to turn subscribers into actual customers and the way we do that is through some email marketing and then we need what I call a conversion mechanism and we've all heard a lot of them in conversion mechanisms, right? We've heard of we should be doing maybe webinars or sales videos or sales pages or getting people booked on a call and doing strategy calls and I'm always on the lookout for new innovative really effective ways of doing these conversion mechanisms that are different that are just starting out from the crowd and so recently I bought someone's product and I realized that I found myself right in the middle of the really interesting conversion mechanism and this thing's called a reward funnel and it's like nothing I've ever seen in my life, there's no sales calls, there's no DMing me yet you really want to buy and unlike anything I've ever seen, this is not like a series of videos where most people don't watch the videos, this actually gets you to want to consume the content and then want to buy. Now I could stand here and tell you all about it but I thought what I would do instead is I would just send a DM to the creator of it, Eric Hoffman and say would you come and chat with us all about it and talk about the whole thing in detail. So Eric thanks for joining me, hello, hello, thanks for having me. You are very welcome. It's great to see you. Well, I remember it was a little while ago, I saw one of your ads saying I've got this thing called a reward funnel and it's absolutely crushing it for people who've got offers between, I think we said between two thousand and eight thousand dollars, that's the sweet spot and we'll get into the details of that and when I went through it I was like this is bloody great, it was almost a bit like product launch formula but with, but also with this layer that really appeals to this attention deficit economy that was living right now. Yes, and you're right, basically I built that strategy based on previous different strategies. I consider myself as a mechanic, you know, the complete like new creator, creating completely new things. So I put together many different pieces from many different strategies and yeah, that's how the reward funnel was booked. That's how it came around. That's amazing. I love it. So let's get into kind of what's going on with this. So first of all, let's get into where you're getting the traffic from initially because I think different convert, one of the things that people really don't hit on often is the fact that different conversion mechanisms work better or worse or just differently depending on where the people are coming from. So why have you found that works really well as a traffic source as a lead source before you put them into this reward funnel? Yeah, basically I always been an ad guy, basically I was, I've been running out since 2007, probably when the ads were very, very, very cheap compared to nowadays, but I always been an ad guy. So we always use traffic from the ads. We were on a coaching program and we found out the best ways currently like met our Facebook and Instagram. Yeah, I love it. Love it. Okay. So we're running out. This is like this. So this works with really, really cold people is what we're basically saying. This is people who have never heard of you, never heard the business. And when I went through this to your credit, I had never heard of you, I had no prior relationship with you, which meant there was no like brand credibility that was coming with it. It was literally this person has this idea, do you want to, do you want to get involved? And I was like, yeah, okay, cool. So let's get, let's get actually into this strategy. So if someone's seen an ad, how does this whole thing work? So basically they can buy a low ticket offer with a Bumble first and upsells with optional upgrades. Those are not important when it comes to running the reward funnel strategy. Those are important just to cover our ads band. Okay. So let's put it aside those upgrades and Bumble first. Once they buy the offer, basically there are multiple reasons why I started running the reward funnel. One of them was I had sold probably like 13, 14,000 copies of my low ticket offers prior to the reward funnel. And my biggest struggle, even though everybody is saying like, you need a low ticket offer that people will convert to high ticket offer, no work needed, like whatever. The conversion rate from low ticket offer to high ticket offer was terrible. It was very, very low. The only way that I found previously that people could make it work is basically on the thank you page once they buy a low ticket offer they schedule a call. And I didn't want to schedule a call with buyers. I wanted to find something that is without the call. So basically that was the first reason why I started like building the reward funnel. The second reason was I was trying to find the idea or the funnel that can convert higher ticket clients, but higher ticket I mean like 2k plus. And I realized the only way you can do that without sales calls is to build trust first. And that's a huge component. So how we can build trust. The easiest way is to let people consume your content. Like YouTube is a perfect way how to build trust. But I was like, yeah, not wasting, investing 6, 7, 12 months into content just to get a sale. It's a long game. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And I believe like YouTube is perfect like organic strategy. I believe. And I'm going to do the YouTube strategy this year. So I truly believe it. But at that time I wanted to get clients fast. So what I decided to do is like, okay, you need like build, you need that trust building component that YouTube has, but you need to do it in a very short period of time. So what I did, I recorded like five, six videos each video is approximately like 45, one hour long. Oh, wow. Basically, let's just let's go back to that because you're saying we're going to get people to watch a series of videos. We're not talking about six minute videos here. You know about 45 to 60 minute long videos and we're going to get people to watch five or six of them. Yes, basically, approximately in my case, it's probably six, seven hours of content. Bloody hell. Like, that seems like a big, a big ask to go from cold to, hey, watch me for six hours. Exactly. Exactly. And that's why you need to split it. You need to split it into steps. So what we did in our reward funnel, people can unlock the next step only once they finish the first one. So they, when they start watching our first video, which is just start here video, six minute long. They have no clue how long is the whole course. They see just the first. That's the first point. So the first video is short. Yes. So it's like, it's like the gateway drug, right? It's like, well, when leading them, it will fall sense of, oh, it's five videos with the first ones only six minutes and they can't see, they're really important. Yeah, they don't realize is they can't see video, two, three, four, five and six, because they unlock one at a time. So they're like, oh, the commitment, they got because that's the thing about it. If we said to somebody right now, hey, do you want to come and climb a mountain? They'd be like, no, thanks. Exactly. We're not going to face them with a mountain, we're going to face them with, do you want to just like take a walk to the bottom of the street? Here's a six minute video. So that's really critical in putting this together. So video one is six minutes, sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted, that was a big realization that I hadn't remembered from the program. This is awesome. Yeah. Carry on. Yeah. Many people don't see it until I uncover it. There are many psychological triggers we use to make the whole funnel work. I just want to take step back to explain like why we chose this approach, because I had a client. He was running like life challenges, life challenge funnel. That challenge funnel was converting really well, like 10% conversion rate from called to a higher ticket program, very good conversion rate. But he was sick and tired of going live every other week for full week, okay? And it had to be live. So he came to me and asked me like, let's do it an evergreen funnel. So we just, okay, no problem. We just downloaded the videos, we put it in the members area, we started running traffic, we got people in and create it, like the conversion rate from 10% dropped to almost to zero. And we started analyzing like what happened, like what's missing because the content is the same, the press enter is the same, the offer is the same, everything is the same. And what was missing is the human, I wouldn't say interaction, because with an evergreen video we do not interact with people, but it's missing that component of commitment to go through the thing. As many times when people buy a low ticket offer, it's like with a book, you go to a bookstore, follow them out, with a book in a bookstore, buy it, put it on the hat nightstand, and then forget about it. And it's collecting us for two years until you open it and all, oh, I should have read that book like two years ago. The same with low ticket offers, they buy it and the moment they buy they forget it, because there is no reason to go through it like immediately. I mean, think about we buy any offer and how many of us have actually ended up in a 10 module course, how many of us have actually watched module 10? And that's why I know you and I do this when we create an offer, when we create a program, I know most people are not going to complete the whole thing. So I want to make sure that they can actually get great results if they only watch the first 30% because that's what most people are going to do. So it's this is just human behavior. This is not any particular person's offer, doesn't mean you're bad or they're good. Just this is just human nature, the excitement wears off, we realize there's some work, there's a bit of mental load like when I was going through your reward photo, I was like, I need to make some decisions. I need to get these decisions right. Otherwise, this is not going to work. Yeah. Yeah. So basically based on that story with the guy with a live challenge, I found out later that there are two reasons why people are not going through the funnel with the same content when it's evergreen. Two things, first one, usually they don't have any commitment. So it's time commitment, when it's live, you need to show up, you have no other option, there is no recording. Yeah. So you have kind of like commitment. And the second reason is consumption. So when you are live streaming, people watch your video, they cannot skip through the video, just watch like tiny bits of the video and then basically move on. And we put a software, analyzing software in the members area and we watch people's behavior in the in the platform and we realize like they don't watch the content and because they don't watch the content, they don't understand the offer, they're like, you know, and we are rolling. And of course, there is no sale. So I was like, it's a really important point because until somebody consumes the sales material, they can't buy. And I know it sounds like a really obvious thing to say, but if they don't even watch the damn video or they don't read the page, they can't buy. They haven't got the information. They don't know why they need it. They can't buy. And I know I want to just really harp that point because it's kind of one of those fundamentals, but like we got to get people to watch stuff. Yes. Yes. Yes. And that was my idea. Like if I make somehow people watching my stuff without using manipulation because I had money, I hate my manipulation, how I can do that. I think like more people will find it like useful, good, and some of them will end up in my coaching program. So what we did basically a first step is what kills consumption is knowing how long it will take. That's why we are unlocking one step at a time. And usually it's progressive. So the first video is six minute, second video is about like 30 minutes, next video is one hour. And once they consume that part, they're already in. If they love the content, they will finish it. Okay. So that's the first thing. The second thing, again, psychological is like, hmm, I want to ever green offer. I don't want to run like fake life webinars. I don't like this. So how I can do it as an evergreen offer. How I can see whether they actually watch the video. And I realize like, okay, we can do an assignment. So after every video, once they finish the video, they need to do a short assignment. But the key of this is that there are two keys of these two reasons for this assignment. First one is they cannot do the assignment without watching full video. They need to watch the full video to do the assignment. So that assignment forces them to watch the video. The second key about this assignment is once they do some work psychologically, once they put some effort into it, they value the value next content way more without me changing the content because they put some effort into it. So that's the idea effect, right? It's the IKEA effect. While we, by furniture, we assemble, we think it's much better than the plastic shit that it really is. Absolutely. Yes. And exactly that's what we did. So basically, people are going through our funnel. And the first video will introduce the reward and that's why we call it the reward funnel because the last video, the sixth video is the reward they need to earn. We promote it. It's part of my 5K program. You can get it for free, but it's only for action takers. You need to go through the whole program in five days and we'll unlock the reward video for you if you do all the assignments. If you cheat, you will never get it. Okay. And basically, that's how we phrase it and people are chasing the reward and chasing the deadline. So it gives them the commitment and basically action. So just to sort of reiterate that sort of process, someone joins this and in your case, you have run it as a free challenge, a free sort of, it's almost like a free event or they can, but these days you're running it as a paid low ticket offer. What sort of price range of you tested and what's working well in terms of how much we should charge for somebody to go through one of these. Okay. The problem with the free offer was like each, each strategy or each approach has its own price and cost, of course. So if it's free, you can get a ton of leads for lower price, usually below $10, you can get a sign up for the challenge. The problem or the challenge there is people don't value it if they don't pay for it, you know. It's assumption, we call it consumption rate, how many people go through the whole funnel till the end, it's around like 20%. It's still crazy high considering it's seven hour of content, like it's like industry average is probably three. Okay. So we got 20. So it's still crazy high. But once we start charging money, we found out that people are more committed to do the work and basically the best price range for us currently, we tested like 47, 37, 27, 17, 5, like all of these ranges, everything more than $50 is or makes the ads not very manageable and scalable because the cost per acquisition is high. So you need to stay below like $50, but the best price for us is currently $5. And the reason for this is because for the same amount of money, we got two times more people compared to $27 in the challenge and the conversion rate at the end is the same to my high ticket offer. So it's basically it's not about the money, it's just about the effort of getting an equity card out, yes, and basically, yeah, my reward funnel is I don't care, like currently we are breaking even on that front end, and I don't care if we start losing money there on the front end. That's not my point. Like I want people to see how differently they can run their business, what's the different strategy. And more importantly, my profit center as a coach as an entrepreneur is the backend offer. I'm looking at the way or I'm searching for the ways how to improve that conversion rate, not the first one, like being breaking even on low ticket. I love it. I love it. So someone joins, they pay $5, they come in, you have a couple of one time offer upsells, just out of curiosity, what are you seeing currently is performing better? Are you seeing there's a, you're getting better conversions on bump offers or on one time of like you saw traditional upsells? It's mixed and it depends heavily on the author. It's easier to have higher conversion rate on bump offers because it's short tax. If you nail down the tax, it's very on point, like the conversion rate is higher. But what we are looking for is higher card art attribution, which means how much money it adds to the average order value. So it's different, but what we found out, it's more about the words. What I mean by that, you as an email marketer, you know the power of the boards, how to, how you can take a concept, you truly believe in. And then you write about it and there's no conversion rate. You know that the problem is not in the offer itself because the product is great. They didn't buy, they don't know how cool it is. You know, it's problem in the packaging in the way you present it. So many times when you find out like which one is better, I don't care that much, which one is better. I'm looking at the conversion rates and if the conversion rate is off and I'm truly sure like this is a great product. I know it's my fault because I didn't articulate it in a way that makes people, wow, now I see what you see. I want to buy it. I love it. It's at the difference between is it an offer problem or is an offer communication problem? And that's the two things. Like, I always think like if somebody knew just how bloody good what you've got is, would they buy it? Should they buy it? And if the answer is yes, then it's literally a marketing problem. It's not an offer problem. So I love this. So we've got somebody coming in, they're seeing an ad, five dollars, lovely times, they're buying that, they're adding some stuff. What sort of price points have you got in that ascension that I work in right now? So just saying it's absolutely killing it for you at the minute. So we're paying five on the front. What sort of price points are you seeing in that ascension before we get into the actual challenge? You mean like bambofers and OTOs, okay, usually with five of five dollar offers, it's, bambofers are around $20. It's always more than the initial offer because you want to increase the average order value. But everything beyond $30, like the conversion rate drops heavily. People don't realize, we tested the same offer, here's, this is the crazy stuff, I'm a numbers guy. Like my number one saying is like numbers don't lie. Don't listen to people, listen to the numbers, or look at the numbers. So we tested many different variations and we found out even though we had the same offer and the same bambofers for $27, we could charge like $47 for that bumper. Once we dropped the price of the initial offer from $27 to $5, that offer stopped converting because the price point was too high. So basically, the main offer between the front and the next one was, yes, it dictates the, or kind of like set the stage for the next prices within that purchasing window. It has nothing to do with your back end offer, okay. So you can have a $5 first offer and $8,000 next offer after the reward fund. But within that window within these five minutes, they, they kind of like compare those offers. So $5 offer something around like $22 between below $30 to bambofers, that's what we use. And we have one OTO for $97 and then there is a down sell for $47, like half the price. Yeah, that's amazing. And you'll break even all better at that point. And now of course we're going to put them into this reward funnel. And they get into the reward funnel, are you still hosting yours on school because when I joined it, it was in school, you still doing that? No, I would build our own app because there was a lot of friction, technical friction. So we build our own app because we find out like always when you have whatever, it's a platform, it's a program, no matter what it is, you have a breaking point when people commit themselves to finish it. So for example, in our case, we found out once people watched the first six minute video and then introduced themselves because that's their first assignment. Once they do that, likelihood of finishing the whole funnel, next 7 hours, it's like 80%. We just need to push them to watch the first one. So we needed to remove complete all the friction. So basically we build an app once they are on the thank you page, they click the button and they're immediately sent to the members area where they can start watching the first video and basically we have emails motivating them to watch the first video. Encouraging that first video. So they watched the first video, in the first video that's what you're going to introduce. And is at that point where you tell them about the reward for the very first time. So the reward was not mentioned in the ad or in the sales page if that's correct. Yes. Right? Because obviously otherwise it's because it's very confusing off of what my buying, what my getting access to, I'm going to do some work to get access. So they don't know about the reward, but the first time they find out about the reward is they're watching, let's call it module one of the thing they bought. And you're, that's when you say, Hey, we really like working with action takers. If you, if you're an action taker and you complete all five modules, you're going to unlock this really high value, very drool worthy, exciting thing that you really, really want. Yes. And no, we tried this way exactly. And it didn't work because it was too late. Too late means many people don't even start watching the first video. So introducing the reward and that it's too late. So we do something. The second video in my reward from when I explain how the whole strategy works, it's called raise the bar and the raising the bar means you need to become a coach who is like like a personal trainer in a gym telling you like, no, you are not going to slacking here. You're going to walk and do and push and kind of like motivates you. So what do we do right on the thank you page once they bought the low ticket offer? And they are like, congratulations, you're in. I have. Just after all of the OTOs, they've said, yes, no, yes, no, we're now on the thank you page. Great. Yes, they are on the thank you page. Many people say, thank you, you're in, watch for the emails, then log in the members area. What do we do differently there? We tell them, I don't remember the exact words, I can send a copy of people on, but what do we do is like, I tell them that I hate when I see people buying the course and not consuming it like a book, you know, and I tell them, I hate that. Then this is the kind of like the pre frame. And then I go, I'll do everything that is in my power to help you consume the course. That means I'll give you the reward, I'll give you the deadline, I'll give you the push. And I'll do everything and I introduce like how we do that. And if you don't like it, ask for a refund because my client's success is way more important than the couple of refunds. And if it means a refund, screw it, my client's success is first, okay? And I mean it. I thought I was scary to do that that we will have a ton of refunds. You know what? Our refund rate is lower than industry average without having it. Like other refund rate is like 2% or something like this on the low ticket offer to completely call the audience. So we did this and they are coming like, oh shoot, I cannot behave the same way here as I normally behave in other courses, I need to behave differently. And that's what we call raising the bar. And they start behaving differently and we kind of like activated dormant action takers. That's amazing because whenever somebody interacts with any of our stuff, we have to remember they're coming in knowing the rules of engagement. Like how we behave in a bar is different to how we behave in the gym and we come in and we walk in and we're like, this is how we behave and like, we buy a mini course and we think, oh, I'll watch that next week or a low ticket offer, I'll watch that at some point, I'll save it to that little folder. And we know that someday is never, we know that, right? And so you say, that's not going to fly here. And having a because statement, the psychology of that because statement of the reason why is because my client results are amazing. And I really like my reputation. So I would rather not have your money than you be a person who brings a reputation down. I'm not saying you're saying it is harshly as like, but that's the sort of vibe of it. So we're telling them that on the thank you page immediately. And that's in a video now, it's a text based thank you page because we found out like people don't watch videos that much. I was going to ask about that. I was going to say, how do you compel them to watch the video? So you're doing that by texting, here's the rules of how this thing works. This is my reason why lovely stuff. And now there's the button. And they're going to log now into the app. They log in the app and now it's go time. It's like video one. And when I went through this and it was, I think I was in the first iteration of it. Maybe the second, I think that was in the first version that was paid, right? And I think all the way through on every single video, you're reminding them of the reward. You're sort of continuing to dangle the car. Remember you're getting this. This is why it's brilliant. It's worth this. You've got to keep going through this. Do you still do it in that? Yes, for sure. Now with the app, what we do even more is we want it like very narrow path to the end of the course. So basically we removed all the distractions. So even though they buy, some of them buy upgrades, those upgrades are locked until they watch through the whole course. Because we say when they click on the upgrades, we tell them like, this is just a distraction right now. You don't know how to use it. You need to watch the whole video. That's true. The whole course to understand how it works. And then you can use the upgrades. Do you get any shit for that? Do you get any people being pissed off because you've locked the thing you're paid for? Not a single person because they know it will be unlocked. And they feel like I heard that I think from Hormuzi first time a couple of years ago. He said, you win at sales. The moment when the person thinks that you want their success more than they wanted. So if they feel from you like, yeah, if you don't follow the rules, I'm here to help you be successful. And if you are not going follow the rules, like go away because I just want success for you. And if they feel it from you coming like really not like fake desire just to go through the course. I mean it. And once they people feel it, like nobody, like we did not have a single person complaining that's great. So they're coming in. They're now watching video one and then you have them go through the other videos and those videos are really helping them take some actions. Their belief shifting videos, you know, really get people to bring to the surface, all the kind of sales stuff. And if someone wants to go through your thing, being for five dollars, they may be willing to go and check it out and be honest and just see how it how it works. It's quite meta going through it because we know that you're doing the very thing like you're teaching us to do. So it is like learning on a parallel sort of universe, which is actually very interesting. So the the last piece of the puzzle really is the conversion mechanism at the end. How do we and when do we actually ask for when we extend the invitation to ascend into the 2k to 8k program? And there are two routes here, I guess. The route of the person who hasn't done the work and has not completed the reward funnel and they've not unlocked it within the time frame. Oh, I want to put a button on that before we move on with actually, which is the really important thing here is that there is both a reward and a timeline for the reward. They have to achieve the thing within the time. So you are dangling the character, but it's a bit like the bonus is expiring in some kind of product launch. So we get that, we're now at video number 5 and we've got some people who have not achieved the reward because they haven't been so engaged not so quickly and we've got some people who have. Let's deal with the people who have not. What do we do? All the way through I'm assuming we're encouraging them by email. We could be sending SMS. We could be calling them. We could whoever we want to encourage them, but we do have some people who've landed. It's the last day. It's day number six. Tough shit now, you haven't, you haven't done it. Do we even make the offer to them? Like what do we do? Okay. Cool. Love it. Originally, I ran the reward funnel as a free funnel. It was like go through the course. You don't need to buy anything. Like go go through the that evergreen challenge on your own using the reward and the deadline. And what we did as a motivation because you need a reward, something that they want to chase and something that they are afraid of, you know, like a pain and pleasure. So the pain there was we will ban you from the school community because this is just from for action thinkers that was like the pain. What happened when I was teaching that stuff? Well, many coaches were like, I do not want ban, I do not want to ban like my leads because what if they convert later? And I was like, yes, but as a numbers guy, I didn't numbers. I did a couple of tries. I gave some people a chance to rejoin back at so long and I realized one thing. People do not want to ban others because they are afraid of leaving money on the table. As their phrase, okay, what I found out the money is not distributed equally on the table, which means most money are distributed within the group of people who are taking action. And the people who are not taking action for sure, they have money, but they don't have money for you as a coach because they are not taking action. They are not going to buy your stuff. So I got a couple of people coming back, they promised me they literally begged me like, please, please, please, I will watch the videos. Half of them didn't even watch the videos until they got a chance. The second half of them never bought, okay, so I realized, but once I removed that banning, I deactivated the part that was chasing so that pain needs to be there to activate that side of the table with the money. It's the consequence. It's the consequence of inaction. If there's no consequence of inaction, then we don't take it. So now, even now you're not doing it in a school community, it's not free. It's in this app, which is currently $5 at the current test numbers that you're currently running. So I mean, he's a test, every day he's a test. There is still that consequence. Like if you don't do it in five days, I'm going to kick you out of the app. But anymore, we are testing many different things. So basically, we wanted to test it as a five-day pass, like you buy five days only, and that's you get access to the app. It's like a concert, you buy an event, you're not buying like recording of it. So we tested this. We tested multiple variations, but I found out when I was talking to my clients, they told me like the reward is one part, but they didn't want to lose access to the train. And I was like, hmm, that's kind of like cool, but they didn't know what the course is all about. They didn't watch it, but they were afraid of losing access to somebody, to something that was already given to them. So you're afraid. That's what they've paid. It's a bit weird saying, I mean, I love your simulation there to a ticket. Like if you don't show up to the concert, you don't get to see the performance. But similarly, like if I've paid even if it's five dollars and you're like, and you only had five days, you can't get the recordings, it does, it could feel a little bit like a sting. I'm like, well, I've bloody paid for that. Yes, and that's why I realized like, maybe it's just about phrasing. Maybe it's just about how you pack it. So I told them like, you know what, we already gave you and gave you in the, you already have in your account in that app, you already have the reward that is part of our high ticket program. You have five days to get access to this. If you don't finish it, you will be banned from that the reward. So the reward is not the part of the course yet. The reward is not the part, it's phrase. It's not the part of the course you bought. It's bonus for action takers, but the language is very important. You will tell them like, you can gain the reward. It's like, oh yeah, not sure whether it's worth chasing. But if you tell them, we already give you the reward, it's already taken away and we are going to take it away after five days, you're not finishing the course, it's more powerful. It's the same thing, but it's way more psychologically powerful. Yeah. And the psychology, I mean, we always do much more motivated as human beings by the fear of loss, especially if it's something that we've got and someone's going to take away. A really great successful thing we did for a client just about a year ago was we did this kind of thing of taking something away, but what we did is we we gave the clients a coupon voucher and we said we're going to take the voucher away. My God did that make sales, you know, because again, this idea of taking something away is really, really powerful. So they're going to be, they're going to continue having access to the five module course, but module six actually is the thing that's going to be taken away. And of course, you're building that up to be the most exciting and the most beautiful thing in the world. Okay. So if I haven't taken action, I've still got access to the five module course. I can watch it. Probably won't watch it anytime that I want. But then you've got these fantastic people. You've got this 20, 30, 40%, what percent of people are actually completing? Currently, with the new app and in the new mechanism, we are sitting at 56 57 completion rate for the five, five dollar offer industry average is around 10. Yeah. So it's incredible. Like it's crushing. Right? So 56% of people are getting to the point where they unlock module six, the reward. Now what happens? How do we say, hey, let's get you upgraded? Fantastic. Module six is the reward. The way to unlock it is to go through all the modules. The key is that the module five is the sales video. So basically, they need to what they're not forced to watch the whole sales video because it's split into two parts. One is content part. The second one is the sales part. But most of the people will watch it. Okay. And they need to do the assignment and that unlocks the next video. So basically, in order to unlock the reward, they need to look at the offer. That's what I'm saying. Great. So they need to watch module five and now they now know the offer. Is there a task at the end of module five? Like there has been a task. There's been an assignment at the end of module one, two, three and four that they submit. Is there such a thing at the end of module five or is that because I feel like that would get in the way. Do you mean it's a click and roll kind of situation? In the middle, basically the module five consists of two parts. First one is the content part. After the content part in the middle of the video, there is an assignment for them for the content part. And basically, there is a transition to the sales part with the sales part. I was looking for very on one hand, like very honest transition, but on the other hand, like powerful. And I realized what works for me is the best way to do that. So basically, I said, this is the end of the content part. If you don't want to know more about our program, how we help people to implement this strategy, you're free to go. But if you want to do exactly this on a webinar, by the way, I literally, I'm about to go into the offer and I'm like, I've got a special offer. If you don't want to hear it, if you'd rather pull out your back teeth with a rusty spoon, then hear what it is, you can leave. People like praise you in the chat, like I love the honesty. So you'll do the same thing. I think that's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So basically, then we present the offer. I would say, I do it differently. I hate manipulation and I hate when people are manipulated to the offer. And I think psychology is not good or bad. It's like the intention or the human being using it. It's like a knife. You have a knife. Or you can cut vegetables and feed hungry kids. It's the same knife, sorry. So the same with psychology, you can use it for your game and don't care about people or you can use it for their game, and as a result, probably you will be rising with them. So I was like, okay, let's do it this way, the other way. We have many, many components, but one of the big components is you know, like in old school webinars, when you come to the point where people might have the objections about the offer and people handle on the webinar, like, yes, this offer is for you. Yes, if you have this problem, we solve it. It's for you. It's for you. It's for you. I found out when I was watching myself and my behavior, I found out like, ah, this feels kind of off to me. So I was like, let's reverse it. So instead of saying yes, we said, it's not for you. So we go and we say, I go, this offer, you need to spend two hours a day working on it. You need to be fully commented, you need to go all in, you need to, I don't remember all the qualifications, probably three, four, but I'm going like heavily on those qualifications. And at the end, I say, if you don't meet this criteria, it's not for you. Please don't join because I cannot help you. And once we did that, two things happened. First one, conversion rate went up because people felt like finally somebody genuinely wanted to help me. That's the first one. The second one, way more important. Guess what were, where were they, what were they expectations once they joined the program? They were like, okay, I need to spend two hours a day working on it, you know? Yeah. They were realistic. They're not expecting a magic button, which means they're not going to blame you, which means they're better than work with. They're much more understanding. There is a process to all marketing, which takes improvement. Yeah, it's absolutely fantastic. So you make the offer, you tell them what's involved. You do, you do your, your pitch, shall we call it? And the call to action, as we said, there's no DMs, there's no calls in this. It's click the button and you've given them, you've given them some pricing options. Okay. Two things there. First one, again, the end, or they ended one cycle and they're entering new cycle, which is like making a decision and joining the offer. If you don't give them a deadline tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, we know very, very bad. So I do believe there are two very important components of the offer, which is discount and deadline. Okay. Again, it's the same psychology. Some people might feel like it's manipulating you, but if you use it correctly, it doesn't feel manipulative. So what I said to people, I told them, I give you a discount, I give them a discount, and I tell them the reason why I'm using this discount is to help you make a decision whether it's a good program for you or not, because I know it works for me when somebody tries to sell me something, discounts, help me make a decision faster. That's the first component. The second component, why people don't feel manipulative is I tell them, make the best decision for you. And here are the good decisions. And whenever I tell them this, they are like, okay, the only good decision is to join your program, of course. I'm not telling them that. I'm telling them, great decision is to join my program and I would love to help you. Great decision is you finding like, this program is good, the strategy is good, I'm going to do it myself alone. And it's a great decision if you think that's the best for you. The great decision is also you finding like, this strategy is not good fit for me. I want to do a different strategy. All of these decisions are great decisions because they are pushing you forward. The only bad decision is, I'll think about it. Love it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a thing I remember. I went on a sales training course once about, I don't know, a busily years ago. And I remember the person saying the thing we want to move from is indecision is the worst. Like it's like not making a decision, you've really adapted that into this. So we asked them to make that decision, I love this. We've told them the price, I'm assuming, is part of all of that. And now informed of the deliverables, the transformation that you're going to work towards, and they know that about making the decision. And what are the sort of payment options you give people at this point? Is this a, it's only pay and full. Do you offer 12 pairs? What do you find things working? We offer basically payment plan plus paid in full. And it's half and half in the past, we struggle with payment plans because many payments defaulted. You know, people stopped paying. But I realized the moment we started getting, or I started building the program like really tweaking and making it like the best for the people, that problem almost disappeared. Like people want to pay because it feels like this is what they really need so they're not defaulting. So yeah, there was our two options. Once they see the offer, there is a link below the video, they click the link and there is just the order for nothing else. The only, okay, one thing we have, we tell them, because many people came to me especially before Christmas, they told me like, yes, I would love to join your program, but it's before Christmas, I'm busy, whatever, you know, and there's always that kind of always be those season hours. Seasonal reasons. Yeah. The kids are going about the school, they're about to go on vacation, those things. Yeah. So we tell them like, okay, if you are an action take, prove it, by the, by the, the course, by, by the program, and you can postpone your start up to three months. And basically, you can postpone the start date. Yeah. But you need to buy now. Got it. Got it. Okay. And probably third, one third of the people postpone the start. A third of the people postpone the start. Your, your offer, your program that you're offering is like a four month program or a six month program, and it has a start and end, right? Okay. But if someone's up sale is, it's a sort of evergreen, they can join whenever, I guess they wouldn't need to do the postpone the start date, but because yours has like a, a fine item out of fixed amount of access, then that's why you're offering that. Yes. Yes. But basically, mine, mine is evergreen, but I offer coaching for six months. Amazing. Amazing. I love it. And in terms of your payment plan, are you doing three pay, four pay, six, twelve? We had payed in full, three pay and six pay because it's six month, a long program. And probably sixty, seventy percent paid in full. The rest, like let's say twenty, five, each percent, it's six payment and rarely year and there. It's free pay. Interesting. The reason is because six pay is like twenty, twenty five percent more expensive than paid in full. That's why. Got it. Got it. Got it. So that's you sort of weigh in that way. That's really, really interesting. Just in while we're talking about payment, payment terms, we made a switch. We used to only do three and six month payment plans and we switched to a four. So it was like dead in the middle and that, that's working really, really well for us right now. So it's definitely worth people testing, all of these things worth testing. This is absolutely awesome. I feel like I've really like squeezed every single piece of this out of you. Is there any bit of this which you think is unclear that we haven't shared or I haven't asked about because I've been in media? I think like it's kind of like hard to explain what it is because the whole funnel is based on human psychology. It's not like technical stuff, technical stuff, just supported human psychology. So yeah, I think like bird eye picture, we covered everything. Yeah. And when you say you've built an app to achieve this, if someone wants to implement this and they don't want to build an app, they, they're like, no, thank you. What would be a tech stack that you think would, you, you, you school, I think for some of it, like how is this sort of doable for a regular entrepreneur who's not put up, perhaps the technical. Okay. So we build an app that app is available just for me, not for my clients, we are building it for clients as well. So currently our clients are using just GHL, go high level for low ticket offer, go high level members area for this. It doesn't have like full features like unlocking the videos and that part, but it still works. Okay. It still works. That's awesome. I love it. I love it. All right. Well, thank you so much, Eric. Honestly, I really appreciate you coming in and spill on the whole beans and all of this stuff. I mean, I'm going to say this again, Eric didn't mention saying this beforehand, I don't you've got another call to action, but I think for five bucks, it's worth just if you want the details, if you're thinking this could really work for my offer. Then I would say go watch Eric do it in this meta way where he's teaching you to do it in detail with the process while working the process with you. Where can we go to actually go and log in and experience this and buy it for five bucks? Probably the best way is to Google a reward funnel because I don't remember the URL. You are running just ads to the funnel. So I don't remember. What we do is I'll make sure, I'll tell you what I'll do is if people go to email marketing heroes.com/reward, I'll find the URL and I'll make sure that's forwarding to death for everybody. So you can find it. So go to email marketing heroes.com/reward and I'll make sure you can go and check it out. Not an affiliate link. It might be by the time you watch this, I don't know, but I probably not for five bucks. I just want you to go and check this out, okay? I think we also. Eric, thank you so much, man. I really appreciate it. It's been lovely hanging out with you and catching up. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. It was very nice to talk to you. Absolutely. Yeah.