455. The New Blueprint for College Success with Ana Homayoun

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Check them out. Go to nextteam.com. That's KNIXteam.com and use code POTC for 15% off. That's KNIXteam.com code POTC. What I end up seeing a lot is students who get into this comparison culture, where they feel like whatever they're doing isn't good enough, and they're not really allowing themselves to develop their own blueprint. And my goal is that every student has interest, they have skills, they have strengths, they have opportunities for growth, and high school and no school is a terrific time for them to develop these skills. That was Anna Homoyun on Psychologist Off the Clock. We are five experts in psychology here to bring you cutting edge and science-based ideas to help you flourish in your relationships, work, and health. I'm Dr. Debbie Soranson, a clinical psychologist practicing a mile high Denver, Colorado, author of Act for Burnout and Act Daily Journal. From America's Heartland, I'm Dr. Emily Ebblin, a clinical psychologist based in Chicago, Illinois, an author of autonomy supportive parenting. Calling in from Vienna, Austria, I'm Michael Herold, a coach-confidence trainer and the author of an upcoming book on developing your confidence and social skills. From Boston, I'm Dr. L. Showngren, faculty at Brown University, an author of Work, Parent, Thrive, and an upcoming book about misunderstanding. And from Coastal New England, I'm Dr. Jill Stoddard, author of Beemitey, the big book of Act metaphors and Imposter No More. We hope you take what you learn here to build a rich and meaningful life. Thank you for listening to Psychologists Off the Clock. Hey listeners, just a super-quick reminder that you can listen to the podcast ad-free by supporting us on Patreon for just five bucks a month. Or you can support the podcast with a one-time donation on Buy Me a Coffee. Thank you to everyone who's already supporting us. Be sure to stay tuned to the end of the episode for our co-host discussion of today's interview. Hi everyone, I am thrilled today to be with our guest who has a book out that is very relevant to my life and I think to many people's lives. Ana Homa Yurn is the founder of Silicon Valley-based Green Ivy Educational Consulting, an executive director of Luminaria Learning Solutions, which develops student programs that focused on executive functioning and well-being. She is also the author of That Crumple Paper was due last week, the myth of the perfect girl in social media wellness. Her work has been featured in the New York Times, The Washington Post, The Atlantic, Fast Company, and NPR, and on Good Morning America and NBC News. We are here today to talk about Ana's recent book, Erasing the Finish Line, Out Now and Hardback, but which comes out in paperback on June 9th, with the updated title, Getting and Is Not Enough, The New Blueprint for Success Beyond Grades, Test Scores, and College Admission. Welcome to Psychologists Off the Clock Ana. Well, thanks so much for having me and thrilled to be here. Well, let's start with the problem. The high pressure on college admissions, and you have years of experience working with high schoolers preparing for college. So, could you start us off by describing some unhealthy patterns you see in pursuit of getting into college? Oh, wow. That is just like a great opener. So, thanks so much for having me. I have now worked with students for over 25 years, and a lot of the work that I do is all about helping students have a really great high school experience, so they have the most possible choices that are appropriate for them for college. And what I end up seeing a lot is students who get into this comparison culture where they feel like whatever they're doing isn't good enough, they're worried about what other people are doing, and they're not really allowing themselves to develop their own blueprint. And my goal is that every student has interest, they have skills, they have strengths, they have opportunities for growth, and high school is a terrific time, and no school is a terrific time for them to develop these skills. You know, one of the things I talk about in a book is the story that's really stayed with me for the last 15 years. I right after my first book came out, I interviewed at the time in New York Times reporter who had interviewed so many people about their careers as part of her recording. And so she said, you know, people who loved their jobs the most, I consistently found it was based on something they like to do in middle school or high school. And I've taken that to heart because I feel like when we teach kids executive functioning skills, when we help them connect, when we help them have perspective that there's not just one way to get anywhere, and they have an acceptance of who they are, we really allow them to move beyond the comparison culture, these I need to be overachieving or do all the things all the time. Or what also happens is just like I'm so scared that whatever I do is good enough that I'm just going to check out. Yep, right. Like so I'm not even going to try because I don't want to look like I'm trying and then it not work out for me, right? I don't want to be disappointed. So unless I know that it's going to happen for sure, I'm just going to bow out. And that's the idea. What we want students to do and you know this too through your work is we want them to see a healthy rest. We want them to connect with others across different. We want them to be open to new experiences. And so the fundamental for that with my work is again, teaching these executive functioning skills, helping students find a system that works for that. And that's why that's the first pillar in the book. Yes. And we will definitely get into that because it's so juicy and important. What do you see as what parents maybe engaging in? That's not the healthiest for their children in this pursuit of college admissions. What's really interesting to me is that the majority of parents and maybe if the majority of self-selective people who find their way to my office really want their kid to be in the right place for them. And I think anybody who doesn't realize the importance of that will realize it very quickly because if you have a child who gets into a school and yet it's really not the right place for them or they feel overwhelmed all the time and they're miserable. That is not a great experience. That is not a great experience for personal growth. It's not a great experience from engagement. It's not a great experience for so many different things. So nobody wants that. And so whether or not, you know, parents fall into the trap. I think parents own unresolved stuff comes up during the college application process for a number of reasons. There's uncertainty. You don't know what it's going to happen. You cannot control it, particularly people who are used to controlling things or used to getting their way. This is a time. It's kind of like you might not be able to control this and it might not turn out how you plan. It will turn out and maybe better than expected quite frankly. And many of the cases I've seen when we really allow students to grow throughout this process. And I also think it's a very emotional time. I often make a joke that it's like being a wedding planner because everybody is emotions, the family is involved and even if everything goes off without a hitch, somebody is annoyed with you. At least as now I've aged quite a bit, 25 years into it. When I was younger, I'd take it personally. I take it no personal either. And I had a lot of compassion for people. This is hard. Your own stuff comes up and you want the best for your kid and sometimes that means you have to really re-examine your own approach around certain things. We're all human. We're trying to do the best we can with what we got. I have a lot of empathy for that. Well, I'm curious too. If in these 25 years you have seen shifting patterns and trends because from my viewpoint, my hope would be that because we have spent some more attention on the downsides and risks of the high performance over achieving Ivy League is the only option mentality that maybe we're flexing as a generation to be a little more adaptable. But what's your experience? Well, the biggest thing that's changed over 25 years is technology. So I was just talking to a kid last night, very nervous, obviously watching a lot of TikTok and Instagram reels and Reddit threads. And I see this with parents too. They come to me and they're like, how binding is early decision. I've been doing a lot of research online and they've been going down a rabbit hole. A lot of different things. The biggest thing I see is how technology has changed the college admissions process, whether it's college is reaching out to students. I mean, there are emails, there's videos, and it's also getting information from influencers who everybody has a different opinion of one of those different approach. I really actually don't talk a lot about college admissions online. I talk about other things around student wellness. I talk a lot about executive functioning skills because, and this is what I explain to the student last night, there's a lot of nuance, right? So I can't in a 30 second clip, I can give you a couple facts, maybe, right? But I can't explain the nuance around how, if you do this or that, or these things can shift something, or it just changes everything. And that is hard for people to take and bite size elements. So I think the biggest thing that I encourage people to do is step back, look at actual data from schools, visit Get On Campus, collect their own data, be savvy consumers, ask the right questions, and know that whatever quality you like about one particular school, there's probably multiple out there that have similar qualities, and that there's not just one place that you can thrive, not just one type of place, but also not just one place. You know, one of my students this year, you know, she wrote me the nicest thing, you know, she has finished with her application process, but one of the things she said is, I assumed that I was a big school person, but she sat down and he talked to me, you heard my story and he said, you know, I've been thought about these smaller schools, and then she went and visited one, and she's very much into the outdoors. She found that there were multiple places, and that one of those was a place she'd never even thought of before she started the process. This is the idea of being explorative, being aware, being open, is good for parents and for kids. - And I would add flexible, absolutely. - Well, one data point you bring up in the book that really got my attention was most US institutions actually accept the majority of college applicants. And to me, that is not the narrative I have been taking in. So could you say more about that? - Well, everyone seems to want to go to the same 25 schools. And the thing is, is that if we understand the marketing behind how these schools have such low admission rates, I mean, I remember one school that I won't mention, but they 15 years ago used to send out cards to kids, will wage your application fee and you don't have to write an essay. And I remember one of my students taking advantage of that, they needed to up their application numbers because their selectivity had taken a hit. Now it's one of those popular schools, and they're very known for the fact that they did this marketing campaign. Well, of course, one of my students is like, great, I don't even have to do an essay. And his profile was above the acceptance. Well, he got a really quick rejection. And it was interesting though, 'cause I was like, wow, this school is trying to get more applicants, they waved the fee, they made it really easy, but one stop applying. So thinking through all of those pieces is really important to understand that there's a reason that these schools have such low acceptance rate. One of them is it's become easier to apply. And many of the students that are applying may not be the appropriate profile for the school. So, and that just makes these 25 or 50 schools, they look at that much more competitive. It doesn't necessarily mean academically if you get there, you're gonna have that much better of experience. On the front end, everybody wants that scarcity mentality. It's so hard to get in, that means that if I get in, it's a really good thing. We know this with any sort of marketing. So thinking about that piece, and again, moving beyond it to be a savvy consumer, what are the qualities that are important to me? What makes sense to me when I visit? Well, also, you bring up the reality that the importance of the prestige of the college really doesn't pan out when you look at like long-term outcomes, is that correct? Yeah, it's really the relationships you have with people, the internships, the exposure that you get on campus, which is why for some students, if they go on a smaller campus where they get to know their professors, particularly for undergrad, they're doing hands-on research that's important to them. They have someone who can vouch for them. That can help them in the long run. That professor has connections to a first job. That can help them. Those individual relationships are really important. I know one big public-flouchhip university where a lot of my students post-pandemic, even in engineering, have a number of their classes online because the professor does not live nearby. They're taking these classes online, much of the work that they do is with a teacher aid. They may not even have in-person face-to-face with the professor at all once during the semester. Wow. Those are things to be aware of, and changes the dynamic of the experience. Yeah, definitely. Let's shift gears from the problems and the false narratives and all of that fun stuff into what we should be all focusing on with our teens, including middle schoolers and high schoolers, instead of curating the most competitive resume. Let's jump into executive functioning. You talk a lot about developing systems. That seems to be very core. Yeah. I'm curious if you could just give the listener an overview of what that means and why it's so important. Sure. Executive functions are those non-automatic things that we have to think about. And I in the book talk about a very core set of skills that when we're thinking about it from an academic standpoint is important. So organizing, planning, prioritizing, being able to start in complete tasks and being adaptable when things don't go as planned. Now, you'll see that a student who struggles with being able to pay attention might have a hard time getting started or finishing a task, but might be very focused on something that they're interested in. Someone who is a perfectionist might have no problems organizing and planning, but might have a challenge getting started or might have a hard time being adaptable when something doesn't go as planned. So the challenge that I see is that these executive functions impact us all and especially long-term. So in school, when we think about you and I, we're telling you about those high achievers before the call, the people who did everything they were supposed to do, I was one of those as well. Give me a list, tell me what to do. I will do it for you. And if you haven't had experiences where things don't go as planned, you can also, when something doesn't go as planned in the workplace or you get negative feedback or you get constructive feedback, you can go off the rails for you versus a kid who's more flexible, more adaptable, doesn't take it personally, use it as a growth opportunity. So my point to saying this is, a lot of the times people are like, oh, my child is great executive and gym skills are great and straight-ass. But that's not what it's about. Yes, thank you. This is a really important point, I think, is to look beyond that metric, right? 100% because one of the things around this book, getting in is not enough, is the paperback version release, is that I went back and I interviewed my students from 13 to 15 years ago, who are now in their early 30s, to tell their stories about not just past getting into college, but how they get their job, what about their career, what's been interesting? And what I found was, this ability to be adaptable was sometimes harder for those straight-ass students. The ability to be open to a pathway, and there were students who were open who were high achievers too, who really saw, in fact, when something didn't work out, they were able to pivot pretty quickly and didn't spend a lot of time and energy in the lamenting. And that's what I'm trying to say too, is like, how can we help students build these skills? So it takes less time and energy to adapt and pivot, especially in a world that we know is uncertain, and is changing, and the odds that are because the news is in 10 years might not exist today. The perfect time for these skills. Yeah, we're transcending. And, hopefully, the past focus on skill development, mapping on to specific jobs. Like, this is not really the norm moving forward into the future. Yeah. And, like, I even think about this, but the students I interviewed, right? They had been in high school between 2008 and 2012. Well, the first iPhone came out in 2008, right? Instagram wasn't around. Like, think about TikTok, you know, all these other things, Snapchat did not exist when they were in high school, and yet some of them work for companies, right? Are related to those things, right? So, yeah, quick change. It's been a disturbingly warm dry winter out here in the American West, which is bad news in terms of fire danger this summer. I don't want to breathe wildfire smoke, so I'm already preparing with an air doctor air purifier. It will give me peace of mind and extra protection this wildfire season. Air doctor's powerful three-stage filtration captures extremely small particles. About 100 times smaller than what typical air purifiers can remove. It captures airborne contaminants you definitely don't want to be breathing in. Dust, pollen, mold spores, pet dander, wildfire smoke, bacteria, viruses, odors, smoke, ozone, and volatile organic compounds. 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It's called AquaTru, the countertop water purifier that's been tested and certified to remove 84 contaminants, including chlorine, lead forever chemicals, and even microplastics. AquaTru has been featured in business insider, popular science, and it was named the best countertop water filter by Goodhouse Keeping. I have one, and I absolutely love it for my new office. So join 98% of customers like me, who say their drinking water is cleaner, safer, and healthier. Head to AquaTru.com now and get 20% off your purifier using promo code POTC. AquaTru even comes with a 30-day best-tasting water guarantee or your money back. Take the guesswork out of pure, great-tasting water with this exclusive podcast only offer now at AquaTru.com. That's aq-u-a-t-r-u.com and use promo code POTC. So with the importance of things like adaptability, organization, planning, how can we promote those skills and abilities in our children? Like what can we do as the adults? Absolutely. Well, I think people underestimate how helpful, structured time within the household is, where it's consistent, where it's something they can count on. So whether it is a weekly time that you as a family sit down and everybody plan out their week and think through things, even for a middle schooler that's helpful, where they can say, "Oh, I have a test on Thursday and I have sports practice late on Wednesday, so I should start earlier." Those conversations, open-ended questions, the space to have that is really helpful, so that weekly time to regroup is really great. And also, we know that kids, even if they want to do it, unless it's structured within a time that's consistent, oftentimes this is true for adults too, they won't do it, so that's one. The second is structured time blocks to get work done within your household. And maybe you create that differently, where some students really benefit from body doubling. So if they do it at the dining room table and you just sit and you're doing your work or you go to a library together on a weekday or a weekend, again, creating that time and space for them to get work done so they get used to getting work done, and it's not punitive, it's not like, you didn't get this done, so I have to sit next to you. It's like, "I'm just going to do my stuff together." I just said this to a parent yesterday, attitude and approach make all the difference. Whether a student or a parent thinks, and I talked about this in my first book, that crumpled paper was due last week, every time. If a parent comes into my office, we tried everything it's not going to work. I was like, "Well, that attitude is not going to guess anywhere." But the attitude and approach of like, "Hey, I want to be here to support. We're going to go through things. There's going to be ups and downs. It's going to take time. It's not overnight. We didn't get here overnight. We're not going to get to the next place overnight." That's a kids need to hear to feel that psychological safety, which you know very well. That's where we thrive. That's where we grow. That's where we feel like our parent believes that we can do it. They're giving us the structures work. They're not doing it for us. But they're taking the time to step back and support us when we need the help. I'll add to that, I think another theme of yours that we might get more into is that of acceptance, accepting the child in front of you and what they bring to the table. I think part of developing the structure includes accepting how your child thrives rather than imposing your idea of what's ideal. For me, my sixth grader comes home every day, turns on the TV and does his homework with the TV on. Some parents would be like, "That's not effective and but he gets it done." In fact, I look back and I did the same thing as a kid. I think it's also being open to the idea of what works for each kid. Yeah. Honestly, I have a college classmate who did the same thing, but she had gone through school, it got through it. Then she became pre-med or she became a vet, but she was saying that pre-med classes and she did that for a semester and then it didn't work. She named her habits. So my point to that is, is also knowing what works for you at the moment and then being open to saying, "Oh, if in the future I get new information and it's not going to work, then I'm okay with that too and it's not a fault of mine. I'm just working with manual information." But absolutely, figuring out what works for each child, what your example reminds me of is there's a lot of people who benefit from background noise. That's why people do well in coffee shops or in spaces where there are others, sitting in their home and trying to do work as a disaster. But if they go somewhere, if they're able to do that, that's super helpful. Back to what you're saying, the goal for me as they go through middle school and high school is that we help them learn about how they are able to work best. So they're not spending so much energy and are able to, what I call, buyback seven to ten hours of free time every week. Who doesn't want more free time? So that assignment that would have taken you 20 minutes when you are full of energy and in a good place for you will take an hour and hour and a half when you're distracted when you're avoiding all those things. So let's get you to do it in 20 minutes. How many of us is adults? They're like, yeah, I had that email that I needed to send. It took five minutes. 25 days. Well, I think it's all I had to do was for 25 days. And then took two minutes to actually send. I have been there. Well, I also think it's important to keep in mind context for executive functioning and things like sleep and stress and traumatic experience. These things that may be happening around our children also really affect how their executive functioning is going to be that day, that week, that month, that semester. I love that you brought that up because I think this is where parents get really frustrated and I see this all the time. A great example from probably 15 years ago. There was a child who came into our office, D's and F's really doing what poorly in school and a really sweet kid sitting down but just was having a hard time. And I don't know why this parent chose not to disclose this to us, but then I find out that they're going through a very acrimonious divorce. So acrimonious that they were neither parent could agree that for the child to be at either house for more than a day. So the child was switching day by day. You can imagine that this child is under stress. That they their parents are getting divorced. The older sibling is away at college and they're dealing with these parents that are very angry at each other and they're having to move homes night after night. And I was like, oh well, that was the missing link. Okay. And then also though stress. Also though a grandmother is sick or something else, they're the or it could just be the social effects, the academic. Our friends. Yeah. Or our friendships are changing. And so our ability, our executive functions are absolutely impacted by stress, by trauma and by sleep, especially sleep deprivation, right? And we're not getting enough sleep. And yet we underestimate that and what I see a lot is parents get frustrated. And I also find it very funny because we ever executive functions were building these skills. And now when you get to about my age or older, you're really just hanging on to those executive skills and you're working on it. And then those people who are my age who have the teens, because there's a lot of us, right? Are then very frustrated with the team and trying to build the skills while you're trying to maintain them. And then I'm like, oh, everybody's kind of a mess. And we each other grace. And also understand that just figuring out the system that works for you, whether it's you face time or friend every day for 15 minutes and you both figure out what the homework is. And that is a connection point. That is a positive. And you're able to come up with your to-do list and then get work done. Good. I love that. Yeah. The system's piece is really important and then the flexibility in adapting the system when needed. 100% based on what's happening. Well, let's segue to the role of social connections. You talk about the importance of each team having supporters and clarifiers in their lives. One of those terms mean. So supporters are those people who are just support. They're excited for you when something good happens. And that's what I like to tell a little school and high school kids. Do you have friends that if something good happened to you? you would go and tell them and they would be like, "That's amazing." And I think us as adults are like, "Oh my God, nobody defined friendship for us this way." So that's a while, right? Maybe we were lucky to have it, but many of us had frenemies or like conditional friendship, like as long as you don't move into my territory, we're good. And what I want kids to really think through is this idea of supporters, people who are gonna be supportive of you, right? And then clarifiers are those adults, trusted adults. They do not have to be your parent. And in fact, in many cases as kids get older, they aren't your parent. And I say to parents, you don't need to be your child's clarifier. You just make sure that they have trusted adults that you trust that are good clarifiers for them. And those are the people that provide clarity. They can go to with a problem, they can talk it out. Maybe they just listen, maybe they ask open-ended questions without judgment, but they often provide this level of clarity that is comforting, and we need both of those. And that is why also multi-generational relationships are so important. Being able to have friends who are 20 years older and 20 years younger, I can now say I do have that. And it's so rewarding and refreshing because I see where people are in different stages of life. It also helps with my own sense of connection, but also my sense of perspective. That this is a season, this will pass, versus if only your friends are your pure group. It's a very limited and narrow purview, which back to that idea of college admissions makes everything more amplified. But if you have friends who are 10 years older, you can say that seemed like a really big deal at the time. And now, or a clarifier who's 10 years older or 20 years older, that seemed like a big deal at the time. And then now I don't think about it much, but I understand why it feels so important to you right now. And that will land better from a non-parent in my experience. Which is why we need these people that we connect with in different parts of our lives that provide that clarity that maybe we don't see every day. There's a value in those clarifiers who we can reach out to and be vulnerable with. And they're not necessarily part of every single day. Right. So why is there a purpose or also a great, great supporter, like, clarifier for the right? The reason I say that is because help them work through challenges in a vulnerable way, see new things potentially. If that makes sense. Yeah. So trusted adults, basically. Well, the other thing you bring up that I wanted to highlight is how important-- because this isn't quite the same as what you were just talking about. But the importance of mixed grade friendships. And I know when my daughter started high school, what made all the difference was joining a team where she got to become friends with the older students. And I think that really helped her entire transition to high school. Oh, I love that. Absolutely. Because also when older students take you under their wing and they're supportive and they're supporters, they aren't in competition with you because they're not peers, right? In the same way. Like, especially if you have a supportive team culture. And they have perspective that the challenge that you have as a freshman seemed like a big deal. But I'm three years older or two years older. And it's no longer a big deal. So it allows you to have the emotion and also be acknowledged and validated for it and see that there's something beyond it, right? Exactly. Yes, that perspective again. Well, in her school is huge. It's about 4,000 students. Oh, yeah. Well, they do a really good job at creating smaller subgroups. And one thing they have is a student leader program where the 11th and 12th graders actively mentor the younger students. I love that. It makes all the difference. Yeah. A lot of what I talked about too in this idea of connection is breaking that initial barrier down for having that conversation because so many of our conversations happen over the screen or online that it can be hard to just even say, hi, I'd love to meet you. You know, interesting. Can we have a conversation? But if there's a mentorship program, it benefits everybody because it creates this opportunity for connection, which I know. And you know, teens are craving that. That's everything. Yes. That's everything. Well, that's the perfect transition into social capital. And this idea of how social capital can be a huge piece of shaping each child's blueprint for success. So what is it? And how does it help teens? So social capital is like all of our collective ability to make connections be in the world with others and how that builds out. And why I think of it is I also want to say, we often think that kids who are born into affluent or connections have social capital, which they do. In the end, I also like to think that everybody has social capital. Work born with it. We can build it. But you know, you may have social capital on a certain neighborhood or certain community that I do not. And we can share social capital. I can help you in a certain community or a certain way or I can make a connection for you. And I have this idea of sharing social capital is very important to me. Now, the other thing is when I was working on the book, I was doing a project in Charlotte, which I talk about. And I remember meeting with a city leader. And I was interviewing him for the book. I was really just having a conversation with him. And he was like very hesitant about this idea of sharing social capital. And he was like, even tell he would not be a person. He would make an introduction for someone that would help them necessarily unless he was 100% sure that this person would not mess it up or whatever. That wasn't his words, but it was the way he was thinking about it. And I said, well, I don't think that you're giving social capital and they're taking it. I think we're sharing it. We're saying, hey, I know that you're interested in this. And I have a person I know that has this. And I'm like one of those people that's like, oh, let's connect, connect, connect. And then when it ends up happening, it's like five years down the road. People like, you know that connection you did. And I don't even remember making it. And they're like, this is this amazing thing that came out four steps down the line. And I like to think that that's just putting good in the world that I don't even know about. Like I sat next to a girl once at an airport, true story. And I was like, you know, she was like, think about a yoga retreat. I was like, you know, I went on this really great one. And I just told her, ran up. She ended up going with 20 people, like a 20 person yoga retreat. And then I find out like a year later, like she showed up, she signed up that day on her phone. And I was like, so and then she has experience in front of it. So my point is, is this idea of social capital is we all have social capital. We can also build our social capital. We can also share our social capital. And doing that benefits actually everybody. So that is the thing because I think we often find like from a scar city model, we're like, well, if we help somebody out, then that's going to take away from what we potentially could get. And then like, no, that's not how it works. That's how I see to work in the world. Right. It's more of a collective activity and different communities. We may have different social capital, right? You may have, you live in the, you live in Chinato, right? I live in San Francisco. We may have things in our community that we have, that we have awareness about that you that vice versa, right? And so just that's a really easy example. But I think we often don't realize it when it comes to our kids. And how they can be building their own social capital by having those small talk conversations, connecting with others across differences, having non-transactional relationships. I think the non-transactional relationships is really hard for adults too. It's the idea that you can be friends with someone without any expectation and just be supportive, especially like, I see adults sometimes struggle with that, which is interesting to me too. And not for a place of judgment for a place of, that's how we built this world sometimes. Yes, I see that too. Well, I want to make sure we include one of my favorite topics which you have in your book, which is the underpinning layer of self-determination theory. So regular listeners have heard me talk about this ad nauseam. It is a huge part of my book, on autonomy of supported parenting. But the reason I'm bringing it up in this context is because part of this social capital and making these social connections, the other critical piece to shaping this blueprint for success is for kids and teens to find those places of belonging and connection which meets the relatedness need of self-determination theory. So let's see more about how you've seen that play out and how we can nurture that in our kids. Well, we want kids to feel like they have choices that we feel like they're competent for choices to make good choices whether or not we're watching. And that's been in all of my work. So in my original book that crumbled paper was due last week, I talk about helping students with organization and time management, particularly boys that struggle. And I make it all about them. And people always ask me, you know, 25 years later, They're like, how do you get boy? to get really excited about being organized. And I'm like, because I make it all about that, I ask them, "What's your very one extra free time for this?" And I say, it's not about me, it's not about your parents, it's about you, and the choices you wanna make to get where you wanna go. And then they're like, "Oh, that changes it." - That's my motive eating. - That's where the motivation comes from. - And the other thing is, is that, if there is a week that doesn't go as planned, I don't get upset or emotional about it. I say, "How can we get back on track?" And so that creates a sense of safety, to the vulnerability of like, "Well, this is really hard." Or, "Gosh, I messed this up, or I feel like I messed this up." But what did you learn? And those pieces. So it also, when we ask those open-ended questions without judgment, when we allow them to understand, there is a framework that they can adapt for them, it also creates that sense of competence, that they are competent. Like, I don't have to tell them what to do, and adult doesn't have to tell them to do. They can figure it out, and work here to help support. Work here to answer questions, work here to balance ideas off of. But there's not this, like, we're gonna tell you what to do, and you have to do it our way. And that builds that sense of competence. And I see this with adults who do not have confidence, 'cause we know that they're, they go hand in hand, when we feel competent, it builds our confidence. And, you know, I was talking to an adult the other day, I was just like, "Why have very low confidence?" So she said, "I'll add." And I said, "Well, I don't think that says this early, true. I think it's a story you need to stop telling yourself. And I think you need to figure out what are the things that you, how can you build your sense of confidence through competencies, right? And when you don't have that, that's what it translates to it as an adult. And then the other pieces is that, feelingless sense as you talked about, relatedness and a sense of belonging. And that's where I find really important for kids to have multiple spaces where they feel a sense of connection. This is particularly true in middle school and high school, but for all of us, right? I have so many different non-overlapping circles of connection. Some of them are somewhat overlapping. So I'll go into our room and I'm like, "Oh, like last week I was at a, I was back in North Carolina, I was doing a speaking event for Duke and in walks this woman that I know through a school in independent school, I consulted with in San Francisco, she's a maths teacher there, but she happens to be an alum too. So she was in North Carolina. So I looked at her and I was like, she says her name and she says, you know, you know, from this, I go, I know who I know you from, but it's a different space, right? But this idea of non-overlapping connections means that if something's not working out in one space, that you have multiple spaces you can turn to and feel that sense of connection, even if it's temporarily takes a bigger part of your life. And this is very preventative and protective for kids. It's protective for adults too, the sense of loneliness. If you have, let's say, a doll, like they go through a breakup or a divorce and all of their friends are within this one relationship, it can be very hard if they don't have multiple spaces that they can turn to afterwards. That's just a simple example, but it's why all of it ties into self-determination theory for all of us. - Well, one thing with teenagers that I think is a good opportunity is jobs, like being in a workplace like the ice cream shop. - We think retail and food service are actually the best ways for students to build executive functioning skills outside of the classroom. And it builds a sense of confidence in those their abilities because they have to think on their feet. They have to talk to lots of people, they may have to begin having practice with Smolta. When you're ringing up someone for ice cream or bagging groceries, you start to talk to people and you talk to people from all different generations that you don't know. And so it builds your sense of confidence in your and confidence in your communication skills. And you have to juggle multiple tasks. - Right. - There might be a cleanup on aisle two, which you were already planning on doing something else, but you've got a shift. And these are simple, but the other piece around executive functioning is your own emotional regulation. So how do you react when something doesn't go as planned? And I love to share this story. So I'm going to share it again, where I worked in high school at Pottery Barn and Pottery Barn has wedding registries. And this woman was I rate because something was wrong under her wedding registry. So I'm 17 years old and I walk around the cash register and I thought, and she's like, I don't have a receipt and death of the disease, very angry. And I find that there is a packing flip with the receipt. I'm very calm. I take care of her needs all as well of the world six months later, I'm being interviewed for college. I'm being interviewed for college. And midway through the interview, I say, I know this is a very weird question, but did you ever have a wedding registry at Pottery Barn? And she, her mouth drops and she says, oh my God, this whole time I was trying to figure out how I knew you. And she knew exactly who I was. She goes, you were so calm that day and I was such a mess. And I was like, it's okay. But it was amazing to me. I remember exactly where I was. We were in this bakery in downtown Valtvew and I'm like hilarious. And I tell the story all the time because I'm like, this is person who, this was a moment that I was seeing that nobody knew. I could have been a non-miss person. Right. And around that emotional regulation, how do you respond? And I feel like my time working retail and food service taught me more about navigating, adapting, organizing, planning, prioritizing is really important. What's urgent, what's important, what can be put off? Then any other thing I've done in my career sense, really. Right. And it's usually a mixed-stage community where you're working with older people, sometimes younger people. And I think it's a great opportunity. I want that. It can be very enjoyable in that way too. I do remember that piece too. So one of my favorite parts of your book is this concept of shifting from time management to energy management. So I know it's true for everyone, but I'm highlighting it because I think it's especially relevant for neurodivergent kids who often have more sensitive energy batteries. So what does it look like to focus on energy management instead of time management? So students with neurodiversity, you are absolutely correct. This is so important for all of us. And what it means is, for example, some of the work that I do is I consult with schools. And I remember going into school a couple of years ago and it was just really loud. Like everything about it was loud. And I remember doing the shadowing and doing some observations. And then I said to the school, I said, where are the spaces of silence for kids? And they kind of looked at me and they're like, oh, and you have a space of silence for adults. They can go into the teacher lounge, they can have a break. But what about the kids? And what they were finding, obviously, is there's a couple of things that they didn't really realize were happening. One, there are kids who get in trouble consistently. And part of the reason they get in trouble is because then they get sent to the principal's office or whatever the determination is and they get their space of silence. They just need a break, right? This over stimulation. And then secondly, the other thing that was happening is you have kids who come home from school. They are exhausted by the fact that they were consistently on. And then it's very hard for them to get started on homework because they go do something else. And then it's just very distracting. Nobody has helped them understand how can you rejuvenate your batteries when you've got home and not do more draining things or not lay in the draining things. So energy management is figuring out when two things, one, when is your energy high? When is it low? Do your work or focus work when your energy is higher? Then two, recognize when you are being depleted or sent and proactively take that time to recharge rather than get to complete burnout, complete overwhelm, complete, I have an eatin' all day, I'm exhausted, I'm angry, I'm hangry. And I think this is very important as kids particularly go to college, particularly those with neurodiversity because we know that sometimes they'll go all day, they won't eat, then they'll be out, they'll be writing on fumes and then they'll be emotionally dysregulated and then that just creates a larger bigger system. So what are the things that they can do consistently to maintain their energy throughout the day? Those are the kinds of questions they ask. And how can they be proactive is around sleep? Proactive is around exercise, prioritizing that. Proactive is around when they come home to really honor the transitions that they have. A lot of people don't realize that when students have neurodiversity, transitions are hard. So you're having 12 transitions during the day or you're asking them to make 100 decisions before 10 a.m. So the more we can take the decisions out of it, that's why eating the same thing or wearing similar things or wearing similar kinds of things can be helpful. The more we can take the decision out, the more we can create spaces of silence throughout the day, which is why this school actually started doing that more and they saw a total change in behavior after the next year. They also moved a lot of the activity to the morning. Like they did first period, active, notice that kids were able to focus throughout the day. So figuring out different things like that. But this idea of energy management is also, how can you. bounce back from a disappointment, not by saying, I'm not going to process the grief or disappointment or frustration and move through it with less energy reserves being taken up. So what I mean by is like, if we think about a middle school social issue where you're like, we're up, we're down, we're exhausted. Can we help kids put things in place that they can still process the disappointment, but it's less of the up and down that really just takes all the energy out of them. I think energy measures, the most important thing we could teach kids and young adults. Yeah, I agree and I do a lot of this in my practice, both directly with kids and with parents to help parents even tune in to what's happening with their child's battery as a starting point for the child to become more aware of their internal battery and what they need. So like you said, knowing when they're depleted and what they need to recharge is huge. But we really unfortunately are working against grind culture and parents are caught up in this so there can be not the best role models for how to rest. Kala's recharge, regroup without feeling guilty, right? And then one thing that I talk about probably too much is the demands of youth sports and how these leagues take so much time out of kids, weekends, weeknights, they keep them up super late, they don't get a lot of sleep. I mean, there is like a whole structure that needs revamping for kids to get the sleep and energy recharge and still be an athlete if they want to be an athlete. So that's my little platform. What are your thoughts on that? Oh, I'm glad you brought up. My next point was going to be the fact that like, so people will come into my office and be like, I don't want to show my kids on doing their homework. I was like because they have two activities to eight o'clock. So they're going from 70 and to 8 p.m. they're exhausted. And I said to parents before, I can't solve that problem for you. There's no folder, there's no system that's going to solve the fact there's your kids exhausted. And we did in our office just recently a whole talk on youth sports around this because we really want parents to understand that the reason that this year round culture has started so young is it's a business decision, right? Not a kids need this decision. You know, when we look at athletes from other countries that are pro athletes, we look at Roger Federer and other athletes that have gotten to a very high level, they were not grinding it eight years old. They were not going to travel tournaments like across country at 10. I actually really want us to get back to a recreational culture where you can also do two practices a week and a one game on the weekend four hour a week commitment and it is just as valuable. And I actually just spoke to you know, universities who are like around admissions around this because they're like, well, the kids not going to recruit for a sport. You know, these parents are still spending all this money, but the kid is playing like 25 or 30 hours a week of the sport. And I say, you can opt into the recreational league, right? Like there's nothing wrong with that. It's just we haven't had a critical mass of parents say, you know what? My kid's going to play recreational basketball. I mean, I've given that suggestion to kids who didn't make the high school basketball team, but just wildly that's good ball. Yeah, there needs to be a systems change. I mean, I know like my eighth creator joined club volleyball for the first time and it's an absolutely ridiculous number of hours for six months of her life. And there's not a wreck option. Right. And she loves the sport. And she played for her school, but that was two months. She wants to play more. But it's too extreme. So it's like, we need to find this moderation across the board. I think that's a theme too. I think in your case too, though, your daughter is picking this, right? So like, that's a good thing to think too because sometimes kids are defaulting into it and not happy about it. But if they are picking it, it's just it can't be an all or nothing option, right? And that's the challenge for also parents like parents work, parents of their own obligations, but yet you feel enveloped by this youth sports culture. And it also goes back to the comparison culture and college admissions where it's like the same kind of thing. Were am I doing enough for my kid? Do they need this? Am I hindering their ability to move forward if I don't let them spend six months and 40 hours a week playing volleyball and traveling around on weekends to a place I love it when people travel four hours to play the team that lives 20 minutes away. Right. That's my personal favorite. We could have a week in the Christian about that. That isn't systems failure. But I think it's kind of funny. We landed on this ending with youth sports because there are parallels with the college admissions culture. And I think what your work and your books are doing is trying to really shift cultural narratives and norms to cultivate a healthier culture for our teenagers and our families. Absolutely. And one thing I want to end on and thinking about is the fact that one of the questions I often get is like, oh, do you not want kids to be successful or like work hard? It's the opposite. When we have these foundations in place and they're able to feel a sense of safety to build their own blueprint, actually they do better than you ever could imagine. Like they're really getting motivated. They're finding new things. They're innovative. They're interesting. They're excited about things. That's what we want. And I see it time and time again because we asked questions. We didn't have a set system. We allow them to explore. And then they went off and did something that was like, okay, and they were so into it because it was their thing. And nobody was telling them, you need to do this for college or you need to do this. It's like, oh, go explore that. Well, that's really interesting and exciting. And that's what we want for all our kids. Right. That's a better world for everyone. Excellent place to end. Thank you so much, Anna, for your time. We really appreciate having you on the podcast. Thanks so much for having me. Do you want to just tell people where they can find you if they're interested in learning more about your work? Absolutely. I'm online on Instagram and LinkedIn. And also have a website. So onahomayune.com. I visit schools and companies around the country to talk about these issues with families and employers. And so yeah, please be in touch. Thanks for sticking around everyone for my co-host post with Debbie. And we were just talking before recording and realized we have so many thoughts that are actually more of an elaboration on the interview with Anna. And we think that this is going to be something a lot of listeners are hoping to hear more about. So we're going to talk a little bit about the parents experience of their kids applying to college. So Debbie, when you were listening to this discussion, what came up for you? Why was this at the forefront of your mind? Well, first of all, I have this on the horizon for myself in a few years. My oldest daughter starting high school this fall. And then my younger daughter is a couple years behind. And so I know it's ahead, but not only that, I've had a number of clients over the years where they're concerned about their kids, college admissions process and beyond. It's something that they bring into therapy because I think it's so stressful that it starts to take a toll on their mental health. And so I just want to acknowledge the stress for both kids and parents in this world. We're living in. It's really changed since I was applying for college quite a few years ago. I mean, but it is another part of the landscape of parenting that has shifted so dramatically since we were there. Right? So we have obviously technology that we talk a lot about and social media that didn't exist. But the whole college admissions landscape has dramatically changed as well. And so it's not the same experience as when we were applying to college. And so it's again, this theme is uncertainty. Right? I give a talk about autonomy, supportive parenting and the science and the practice. But a huge part of the beginning of the talk is really focusing on the why of parents being controlling and intensive. And we see this intensive approach a lot in the college admissions process. But it's because we have less certain futures for our children than has been true in previous generations. So economic mobility has changed. Do you used to be a given that the next generation would do better than their parents? And that's not true anymore. The data has changed. And so in general, we're facing much less certain security in our children's futures. And so we feel more pressure to ensure that they have the best college education possible for a more secure future. But of course, there are downsides to that, right? Right. Well, I think a lot about your conversation that you had with Jenny Wallace. It was episode 324 if people want to listen to it on her book, which is on toxic achievement culture. And she really speaks to how parents fear around achievement and getting into a good college and setting up for the future. That really drives a lot of unhelpful behaviors and patterns for both the parent and the child. But this cultural component is so important, right? Like there's this competitiveness out there, especially in certain groups, socioeconomic groups. And I think it's partly driven by what the Joneses next door are up to with their kids and just that sort of culture of achievement that's around us and parents wanting to set their kids up for a good future. And of course, we all want that. We want our kids to have opportunity. We want them to do well in life. But then I think what happens is it ends up being so much pressure on the parents and the kids and it doesn't always necessarily go really well in terms of the whole process start to finish and getting them set up for a happy life sometimes is more driven by those cultural pressures. In a way that's not necessarily great for us or our kids. There's a lot of evidence actually. It's very unhealthy at many levels. It's unhealthy for the parent to be that involved. And the whole focus on that external metric of success, which is the name of your college is not associated with the best experience in college or even what happened after college. So I think it's important for parents to gather information from these voices up there that helps balance out that social comparison and those pressures with the reality of what really is most important in terms of setting our kids up for their futures, which is a lot of what Ana was talking about, which is social relationships and soft skills that aren't taught in the classroom and executive functioning strengths. And there's a lot that we can be doing to support our children for truly their healthiest futures that has nothing to do with the name of the college they're going to. But the other pattern I've seen is actually a really highly driven high schoolers whose parents are saying we are not driving this bus. We have no investment in them going to the best college. We just want them to be healthy, balanced, live a good life. They're the ones really stressing out around their college resume. And so I think there's the parents that are completely in the right mindset and the healthiest mindset. Yet their kids are I think responding to a lot of peer comparison and peer pressure of whatever their microculture is around achievement and excelling. So I think that's a tough dynamic for parents as well these days. And I think from the parenting perspective, it's tricky because you want to support your kids and if they're motivated and excited about something, you know, I don't want to be the naysayer shooting them down. But at the same time you can see the stress on them and the anxiety and how much importance they're putting on it. And so I don't know. I don't have a magical solution to that except to say that often it is kid driven and as a parent, you still have to think about how to support them and help them navigate it. And to me, prioritizing mental health is a really important part of that equation, right? Like if they're really, really stressed and anxious about it, I want to help them think flexibly about alternatives or ways to approach it that is not going to have that toll on them. It's a pressure cooker for the kids. It is a pressure cooker, right? For everyone. So well, I'm glad more information is out there to support parents, to support their kids in this process and living in this current culture. And I hope everyone got a lot out of it. Thanks so much, Debbie. Thanks Emily. Thank you for listening to Psychologists Up the Clock. You can now listen to our podcast Add Free by becoming a supporter on Patreon. You can link to Patreon on our website or go to patreon.com/offtheclocksite. If you enjoy our podcast, you can help us out by leaving a review and sharing this episode with a friend or an enemy who would enjoy it. You can get more psychology tips by subscribing to our fabulous newsletter on Substack, or if you're still addicted to social media, find us on Instagram and LinkedIn. We'd like to thank our Rockstar Production Manager, Chateen Stout Williams. Now for the boring part. This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and is not meant to be a substitute for mental health treatment. If you're looking for mental health treatment, please visit the resources page of our website offtheclockpsych.com.