[Music] This episode is sponsored by VolunteerO, the Volunteer in Management platform that helps you spend less time lost in spreadsheets and drowning in emails and more time developing your volunteering program and delivering impact. Whether you're coordinating 20 volunteers or 20,000 volunteers, VolunteerO makes it simple to onboard, train, deploy, communicate and report all in one easy to use platform. Today's episode of the Time for Impact Podcast is proudly sponsored by Investing in Volunteers, the UK's Quality Standard for Good Practice in Volunteer Management. Stay tuned to hear more about how IIV helps organizations create great volunteer experiences later in the show. [Music] [Music] Today's guest is Kate Lee OBE from NCVO and organization because I know very well and I'm sure you all do as well. And the new, well still fairly new chief executive of NCVO and we thought it'd be really nice to have Kate come along and join us amongst other things, give us a bit of insight. I know it's very early days Kate, but an insight into your vision for not just for NCVO but also perhaps more importantly for this podcast, your vision for some of the challenges that we face around volunteering and where you think volunteering should be headed over. Over the coming 10 year of your time at NCVO I guess. But let's start with something far more easy than that. Many of our listeners will know who you are Kate but tell us a bit about yourself. We're always interested in know how people ended up in their positions and their journey particularly in relation to volunteering and I know you have quite a history in the sector. And then of course because something like 25% of our listeners are outside the UK it would be good to explain who NCVO are as well. Anyway first of all welcome Kate. Thank you. Well thank you for inviting me. My goodness my career trajectory today. I think the probably the seminal moments in my career particularly in relationship to volunteering I probably that I went to university in Sheffield and did a public sector and politics degree. And as part of that I did a work placement over the summer in the NHS and decided that the public sector just wasn't for me. I didn't really get it. I would say it's the naive at TV that I did one job in the entire UK public sector and decided that the entire thing just didn't really suit me. And one of my professors at the time said had I thought about charities and I didn't really know very much about charities at all. I had an opportunity in my final year to study some charity laws, some governance staff, looked at some places around fundraising. So it's great. So when I graduated I applied for a role with British Red Cross and I got my very first job and I always say this was really seminal for me. My very first job as a manager at the age of 21 and I managed a group of 12 volunteers delivering a service at the time called Fire Victim Support. And I was a community service manager at Red Cross and I really always say that cutting my teeth as a manager by managing volunteers was absolutely I credit a huge amount of the early success of my career to that. So I think working out how to manage one tears that were a lot older than me, you know, learning your line management skills with people that you don't pay. And I really understand about their motivations and what kind of brings them to our come what keeps them and retains them. And I think learning those skills from my very, very first job in volunteering really honed my skills as a manager and a leader from day one in that organization. I really only went to Red Cross for a year where I decided what it was I wanted to do and that that organization is outstandingly good at retention. And 17 years later, I left Red Cross as the deputy chief exec and director of the University UK and international strategy, which was a fantastic opportunity. And then I went to be a core social leadership fellow. I did that full time for a short while and then went to meet and has this in the West Midlands and really interesting mix really red cross obviously an organization at the time 35,000 volunteers. Delivering a huge range of services across the UK went to the hospice. They went to work regionally in that very local, you know, locally loved charity about a thousand volunteers at the hospice as well. And I left the hospice in 2000 and turn I was chief exec there and I left to become chief executive young live services cancer wanted to get back into a national charity and thoroughly enjoyed that role. So he loved it again organization with a good card draw volunteers working in quite specific roles, which was really interesting kind of less volunteers and more in depth and quality offer higher levels of training and development rather than maybe some of the transitional volunteering that I was used to. And then there in 2000 and went to Alzheimer's Society and I started at Alzheimer's Society on the first of March 2020. So four days I got four days in the office before we went into lockdown and I didn't actually meet my board of trustees in person for two years. So just actually an incredible time to join that organization really amazing we did a big transformation change we delivered lots of cultural change stuff it was a challenging organization when I joined dealing with lots of issues around culture and I'm thinking about things like positioning of volunteers within the organization where they are essential part of the organization that they had been across where they are nice to have we really up the number of volunteering services during covid Alzheimer's Society but it also flags some crack since some of our processes around use of volunteers. I'm really exercise there by things like how do you use volunteers that come forward as part of corporate partnerships so businesses that want you to provide a volunteer opportunity for their members of staff which is really hard and I know a lot of charities wrestle with. So stay there until last summer had a glorious summer off and then started here at the National Council of voluntary organizations at the beginning of October. And this is an infrastructure body so I don't know how I feel about that word yet not quite got my head right now. That's a however debate. Yeah but we are a researcher architecture. Yeah, we sit over or under the kind of body of UK registered charities that kind of support the whole of civil society we've got about 17,000 member charities and growing who we represent we do a lot of work and the development of those member organizations and what they need to function really effectively we do a lot of government lobbying and campaigning so thinking like some of the lobbying bodies that work for business or in some of the other sectors we do the same kind of role but for charities and infrastructure here. So training, consultancy, lots of facilitation across the sector connections building networks. So interesting job for me now nearly well over 30 years in the sector over 15 years has been a chief exec. It's been really interesting to kind of put my money where my mouth is moving to this job because I've owned a lot of that problems with the sector and now I've got my responsibility to thought out so it serves me right but absolutely loving it. I once got told off by you under your predecessor, so Stuart Effrington for calling NCBO the road haulage association for charities. It seemed right to me. Yeah, I'm going to see I am going more, you know, some of those big influential bodies but maybe that's we've just got to get back into that space. So I don't want you to have to relive the interview for NCBO but I imagine that there was a driving influence for you after all these years and sort of operational service kind of led charities to I think it's you hinted at Bjumbly you saw some things that weren't quite working and you wanted to fix them is that fair? I think a few things really I had the absolute best time out of society an incredible organization and I think when I left there I felt like what I wanted to achieve there I'd done. I like big transformational changes I like to take organizations that have got backs of potential but they're not achieving that and really work on kind of culture and the strategy and the financials and really think about how you pull those together to create the best possible organization it can be within the limitations and frustrations that it's gotten. NCBO had lots of that potential. I will see if I was honest I've done five years as a chief executive palliative care five years as a chief executive in children's cancer and five years as a chief executive dementia and I wanted a bit of a broader.
break from house, but it was really important to me that I stay in a cause that I'm madly passionate about and I am madly passionate about the UK volunteer sector. I've never worked anywhere else and I'm not sure I ever will. Me neither. I am a huge cheerleader that is the most exciting part of being Chief Executive at NCVO is I get to be Chief Cheerleader of the whole of UK civil society and that has to be the best job in the world. You should change your job title, your business card, to cheerleader in chief. I think that is quite innovative. I want to build on the cheerleader thing though, is that a key part of the role of NCVO as well? What do you see the role of NCVO in that sector as part of that infrastructure and how does that link to your needs? I think it is a really important part actually. I think this sector is genuinely truly believe it is absolutely phenomenal and every day I'm at NCVO I am just learning more more about quite how phenomenal it is. It is huge and it's powerful and combined wealth and impact is beyond measure but we are not well coordinated and the other thing is that we still have to all these years let confidence as a sector to stand up for ourselves and say this is actually how important we are. You can survive without us. We are holding together the fabric of social cohesion and civil society and in some places where the only thing holding it together. I think getting more important right? Yeah, much more important is the world becomes more divisive, more divided, that polarization of debate, communities falling apart. We cannot let that continue and civil society is the answer because with the best in the world some of our governments and some of our commercial organisations are the reasons some of those communities are falling apart. So we are the answer and we should take absolute pride in that. I'm not being naive, the sector faces huge challenges but I think it is really important that it does have a cheerleader that is confident to say "Hey you don't treat us like that" actually. You couldn't cope without us. I think that is a really important role for NCVO as well which is to be an advocate telling a positive story. I know there's a lot of challenges for chief execs across the sector at the moment. Colleagues on their knees, I know burnout is a significant problem but these are also highly privileged jobs in the best sector in my mind in the world and tough and they are hard. I was saying to some chief execs last week. We were doing our survival tips. How have I survived 15 years as a chief exec and I still love the job every single day. I was saying these are survival tips because we are fighting a battle here. We're fighting against inequality and oppression and unfairness and social injustice and the impact on the climate and it's not surprising you exhaust it because you're fighting every day and we need to be talking more about what are the ways that chief execs can survive some of that and still be courageous leaders they need to be in order to make the world a place without just feeling burnt out and fed up really and just like it's all worthless. The saddest thing is you know chief exec losing their passion or their activism and what brought them here in the first place. So I think we do need a lot more positive stories about how incredible this sector is and people that aren't shy to tell them. It's interesting early in what you just said there around coordination of the sector as well which is part of at least in part the role of NCVO and I was just wondering from how you feel about that from a volunteering perspective because I suppose I'm old enough but I was closely involved in the merger of NCVO and volunteer in England way back when the coalition government really pulled a lot of money out of infrastructure in the UK and where you feel that the NCVO's role is going forward in trying to sort of bring some coordination and bring some leadership into the world of volunteering in England. Of course it's you know there are volunteer Scotland UCVA, volunteer now etc and NCVO has always been a slightly unique because it's kind of doing the volunteering in the and the rest of the sector and I just I know it's very early days but if you got any sort of thoughts where you see NCVO sort of leading the charge in kind of pulling some of that together especially I suppose thinking there's been other stuff that have been in recent years there's leading the futures group there's the big KL Pell and the stuff that sort of sits somewhere you know good stuff but sits somewhere other than the infrastructure bodies and what the role of infrastructure is in driving the volunteering sector forward. Yeah so my general sense is that there are so many it's not only volunteering there are lots and lots of topics across the sector where there's tons and tons of good work going on so this morning I've been spending some time looking at those organisations that are working in the protection of civil space for example you know protecting about the rights of protest or all sorts of different kind of aspects to do with the rights of registrities the protection of our charitable status you know regulation in that space and that's kind of lawyers and groups like liberty but just loads of different organisations in that space and I was talking to them and I was saying one of the issues I think in the sector is we sort of have some absolutely superb musicians but we struggled to pull together in orchestra and so I think the role of NCVO going forward in a range of topics and volunteering maybe front and centre of that is to really think about what is our role as a convener what is our role as the connector of the understanding of where the good work is where the gaps are how do we drive work in the gaps where they are important and how do we also empower and support those organisations that are doing super well I read a brilliant report about volunteering within a very niche minority community group and it was a great piece of work it was a piece of academic research only a very small piece but really valuable but though authors of that have no way to get that message out to a wider group or we've got 17,000 members that we can get out to so for me like what is NCVO's role in that kind of coordination network driver and of course then taking that into government in the terms of that bridge between the sector and government and sometimes that's been in the tent sometimes that's being outside the tent it depends on what the topic is and what the best way to get that impact and result is we want to see for me I mean it's quite a long answer but I think we've got a role to play across a number of topics in that space that are issues that really really matter specifically to do with volunteering I'm quite interested in thinking about this whole protections of the rights to volunteer and the protection of volunteering as a concept so we've been I think probably aware your listeners will be aware we've just done a big piece on the settlement stroke-in-force volunteering stroke outright slavery depending on your view but you know I think that is a really clear space for NCVO you know that is about eroding the concept of volunteering being for public benefit it's about something that could start with the start of the end of volunteering being about true or realistic and public good is if we start to use it as a mechanism by which people get personal gain from their volunteering it changes the nature of volunteering and so actually just don't call it that just just like let's not try and pretend it's even in the volunteering space because that is dangerous for volunteering now for me they are public clear spaces that NCVO needs to be we need to be fighting those battles about the protections of the rights of volunteering the rights to meet in groups regardless of your cause kind of feed through to things like the rights to protest the right to form a charity as a group of volunteers the thinking about things like trustees and that as a voluntary role in the governance space is that sustainable going forward who wants to be a trustee if regulation continues to increase and why will that leave us so I think there's a big role for NCVO to play in the volunteering space it might you know we might be still supporting campaigns like the big help out and the big launch and go vote and fantastic stuff going on but we might be just a kind of multiplier of that message from other brilliant organisations like Catherine R.V.S you know superb work going on there I think rather than deeply cake that or try to fight in that space NCVO now needs to really niche out what it is that we can do and add unique value to and I think that's something about convening and I think it's something about the protection of volunteering as a concept yeah but it's always music I think throughout it is to hear people talking about convening rather than controlling and the end of the day NCVO is a membership organisation as well isn't it so you know it makes sense to me that a large part of the organisation as well should be hearing the voices of its members which I know from my days on the board NCVO I'm incredibly diverse not just in terms of the scope of the charities but the size from tiny to mega charities but to bring those stories to the floor enable obviously listen to them and make sure that those voices are fed into the priorities of the the work and fed into the policy work you do in government and with others. But playing the role of
highlighting, and convening, bringing people to the fore, rather than being the kind of sector. I wasn't going to say policemen, but that's not the right word. But given that, you know, this is the best practice. That's all important, but at the end of the day, the real aim you can do. There's lots of good stuff coming together, but someone who can shine a light on it, I reckon the right people towards those issues, just spark the conversation, enable the conversation to happen. I've been tremendously valuable. Completely, really, that Chris. I mean, the reality is NCVO isn't a volunteering organisation. We don't have huge numbers of volunteers. We can work with organisations that do to identify best practice. We can work with them to ensure that every organisation, every registered charity in England that's working with volunteers has access to great templates, training around requirements to volunteer. It's make it easy to work with volunteers. We can do that. I think NCVO's also got a place to play in what I keep calling brilliant basics, which is not maybe at the complex end of some of the volunteering debate, but just saying, if you're working with volunteers, here's the templates you need. Here's how you want to onboard. Here's some really good ideas on recruitment opportunities. That needs to be part of for our membership for their access to what I call a brilliant basics package. That's also how do I do my governance? What do I need to think about for my people? Is there an example of a policy for annual leave? Brilliant basics. NCVO is great in that space. But over and above that, the reality is that we maybe aren't best placed to deliver a lot of this work on volunteering. Kids day in and day out, we don't have volunteers here. We have lots of people who've worked with volunteers. Obviously, myself included, what I want to see as doing is working with those organisations that are developing best practice. I did a session at some maritons meeting, the annual National Council meeting on Saturday, and I did a conversation talking about volunteering there and just kind of highlighting some of the trends, what does some of the evidence and data tell us. But actually, what we're much better doing is helping amplify the story of some good practice going on there and some challenges they've got there and how they're working through those challenges and how do you do mass and complex change with large in large voluntary and deliverable organisations. Here's a case study. NCVO is much better in that space than thinking that we can write lots of this stuff on scratch. I think one of the other brilliant spaces I've seen NCVO in recent years, I'd be interested in any insight on where this kind of stuff might go next, but it's really helping us to know what's going on out there if that makes sense. So that membership and connectedness and convening, I think for me, naturally, leads to what he's going on. And it feels like to me, like the epitome of that or the real high point of that was the time well spent pieces of work, which time and time again, I still go back to this. Here's what a brilliant, volunteer experience looks like. This was a brilliant piece of work, and I see, and here, my peers doing that all the time as well, just really interested in your thoughts on that kind of work and if there's any thoughts on where that might go in the future. Yeah, I think at the moment, we're working on our new strategy and that'll be out in the very early summer late spring, which will really clarify what I think the direction of travel is for NCVO. I think the reality is, as a membership organisation, as you've touched on, guys, is that I've got 70,000 members and that's 17,000 different views of what we should be doing. 17,000 different definitions of what success should look like for NCVO. And that's kind of fine. What I think we need to do is really start to clarify exactly what it is for people to say, this is what NCVO can do, this is what we can deliver in these different spaces. I'm really keen to explore what we can do in the space around data and evidence. Now, that might not be necessarily, I don't know, I think is what I'm partly saying on whether we'll be producing reports like that again in future and volunteering specifically. What I do know is we have access to huge quantities of data. We've probably received pretty much every report written in the sector by everything tank every academic institution. I think by default we're on the top of everyone's mailing list. So probably if there's one single library of most things written, we'd probably hold it here. And actually, I was thinking about how we create that and library that and can use generative AI to help people search it accurately and evidence the data and information that they need from it. I think again, I think that's probably a really, really valuable role for NCVO and whether you're wanting to search that data, even if it's existing reports into the future, maybe that's about data that comes out of our members. It could be a whole range of things. If you want to be able to search that on volunteering, if you want to be able to search that on a topic of interest to you, like maybe it's an impact measurement, maybe it's a how do I do question. I think the role of NCVO is to make sure that it's really easy for people to look at the volunteering data through whatever lens they're wanting to look at it through, whether that's very local community, national charity, through a very specific and interested characteristic group. So that's the role of NCVO. So at the moment, I don't know what we'll produce in ourselves as much as what is our role in enabling other people to produce tons of this stuff. It feels like that's playing that like convening mindset to research data and insight, right? Again, isn't it? The answer doesn't necessarily need to be us doing all of this stuff. The answer is bringing together all the talent and skills and expertise that is already going on. Let's not reinvent the wheel and let's make it as easy as possible for the people who need it and want it to access it to search it and make it useful for them. That feels like a really big and significant mindset shift. It's kind of probably how a lot of us might want to see that mindset shift around some of our volunteering as well, right? It's about how we, this isn't about always doing it for people or telling people what to do is bringing together it's convening the skills and the talent and the good stuff that's going on already to enable more of that and maybe facilitate the conversations, right? Because the next logical step is how do I go and speak to the person that has done this or experienced this a bit like you were saying with Samaritans, right? It sounds like a actually a much more. - Voluntary Wikipedia. - Yeah, I mean, but the thing for me is that like we're doing that volunteering today and in this space, you know, if you're wanting a report on volunteering and you love our report on volunteering and we produce one and that's what you wanted, it's great, but actually if you're sat there wanting a report on how charities are responding to climate change or the sector's dependence on gift aid, right? Then you're like, "Well, and severe, didn't produce that and then severe is rubbish because I didn't produce the thing I want." So if the reality is we've got this membership, it's got very wide and varied need and the biggest stakeholder group than just our members because we've got, you know, government wanting that information, academic institutes wanting that information. Rather than us producing a single report which everyone thinks is really valuable in the moment, but then there was 20,000 different reports we didn't produce. How do we actually think about taking a step back from that and thinking about what is the data and evidence that we want people to access accurately and well, we want to take out some of those wrinkles that we know AI can create, thinking about the, you know, the problems with some of the algorithms that inequality, the data corruption that can end up in some of that data, those data sets and that AI use. How, what is NCBO's role in again, coordinating that space we might not do it all ourselves, but how do we play a role in ensuring that everyone can get the report they want when they want it and need it and it'll be as accurate as it can be? Is that a better, longer term, more strategic headline view of where NCBO should be heading than just to kind of plan to write a report on volunteering this month, the report on something next month. So it's just a different way of thinking about it. How do we move from direct delivery into maybe more convening? I keep talking about it being like, how do we energise this sector that at times is on its knees and in places is on its knees to really access or the incredible opportunities that are still out there, right, to transform and that could be data, AI, mergers, impact economy, new methods of volunteering, corporate volunteering, there are millions of opportunities still out there for our charities to be completely transformed and successful and innovative, but it's too complicated when you're absolutely exhausted. You know, you're on your knees, you live in Hunter Mouth, you just got to get some services out on Friday again and say again, what's the role of NCBO in that energising to just make that really easy, to just make it really easy to engage with AI, really easy to engage with the impact economy, new types of funding models, really easy to find out about new ways of volunteering and what's worked. So I think it's like really challenging ourselves to say if we're a multiplier, if that's the advantage of NCBO, we are a multiplier, we sit in the centre with all these, you know, 17,000 and more spokes coming out from us. How do we make it? How do we use that to do something really powerful with it and to just make it as easy as possible for people to function? Whatever the size of your organisation will ever space you're in. And volunteering will always be a key part of that because it is a core part of civil society, arguably it's the bedrock of civil society. So it's always going to be in there, but I think it's probably more a sense of our future is working that way than producing some of those and encouraging others, partnering with others to want to produce staff, helping connect people who want to produce volunteering research with philanthropists who want to pay for it, more in that space probably. And that gives us a really good view on sort of the enabling and the convening that both the information and the people with the information together.
and sparking all those conversations. I wonder, do you feel that NCVO also has a role to play and to decrease, to a bit of a vision for the sector? I mean, I think you're obviously from volunteering point of view that every conversation I have, every day with volunteering people and charities is inspiring. And most of it is pretty exciting, but there still is quite a groundswell of stuff. Probably because as you describe Kate, people are so busy just spinning plates. That is quite hard to be creative. It's quite hard to really assimilate some of that sort of external data that's going on and realise that the world is changing around us. And it's quite hard, therefore, for sometimes for volunteering bodies to be as innovative as perhaps, you and I might want them to be. And sometimes, though I say, it's sometimes quite hard for chief execs who are not just doing volunteering, they're doing lots of other things aside, to focus on the fact that that world has changed. And I wonder, is there a sort of, if my head I've got a kind of state of the nation, is there a role for you and for NCBO into sort of saying, hey, these are the challenges that we're facing. This is what the data for all this convening we've been doing is telling us. And these are the things we really need to put our attention on or do you think it's more passive than that? - No, I think, I'm going to answer that two ways, actually, two different answers to that, I'm hoping I'd contradict myself in the answers to this. The first is vision for the sector. I'm not convinced the sector needs the sector needs a vision. I think the sector needs a vibe change. It needs a mood change. It needs positivity, bread into it. It needs to be reminded how amazing it is. This sector has lost confidence 'cause we have been on our knees a long time. And you know, we've taken a pummeling by the previous government changes. We've had limited access to voice for a long time. So I can understand all the reasons why, right? But we need to pick ourselves up, and that's hard to do. And we need each charity for exec in the UK needs the equivalent of that friend who's like, you've had such a rubbish time and you've had a lot, but come on now. Like, come on now, where are we going next? So I think there's something, and it sounds very, sounds a bit like wooly, but I think there's something about how do we stop the sector doom looping? How do we set the sector being on a down with spiral to the bottom? Because I hear lots of, I keep saying to people, if we keep talking about chief exec burnout, if we keep saying it's endemic, it's terrible. Like chief execs are horrible. Who'd want to do this job? Who would want to do this job? But you know, my kids aren't jumping at the bits come into the UK voluntary sector 'cause all they hear is how awful it is. Same as we've got that same issue in the NHS, who will be encouraging to join? How will we promoting it, talking about it, talking ourselves, making it positive? And actually, when I look at things like the impact economy and I talk to big business about why would you want to partner with us, they're like, when you do, you do tell us a lot how odd it is and like, you're all struggling. And are you a great partner? Have you really got headspace for innovation? You tell us constantly you haven't. You say actually there's something about it, you know, whether it's manifesting, I don't know Chris, I don't feel like I'm sounding very psychic in this podcast with you guys, but I don't know if it's manifesting our own beauty, but it is about starting to feel step back into our own strength, right? Step back into our power as the UK voluntary sector and say, hey guys, right, how are we gonna tackle some of this? And as diverse as the sector is, the solutions and innovation will be as diverse as that. It will be too tiny, little chariot is working together locally, it'll be some big nationals merging, it'll be a brand new model with a big core, over seeing, so it'll be completely diverse and I am totally confident that'll happen. So I think there's kind of that aspect for me about the kind of vibe and I think that probably lends itself to that point about data and evidence and how do you just make it easy because we don't have to overcomplicate things as well. So how do we make it easy for those charities that do want to innovate and have got 20 minutes free on a Tuesday to think about innovation? How do we make it so simple that when you've only got 20 minutes on the train, you could just look at something that would give you that bit of inspiration. It's quite hard, it's still quite hard in the sector to really understand how do you connect, who are your networks, I've been talking to chief execs about finding their tribes. It's quite hard to do that. And then CVO could take a really crucial space in support in some of that. I'm always reminded of a story I was told about the foundation of Silicon Valley and how before Silicon Valley really took off all the technical giants of America were all based around Boston and Massachusetts in their ivory towers, not talking to each other, holding their secrets really close to their chests for the sake of competitive advantage. And then in Silicon Valley, there was all these coders meeting coffee shops, sharing ideas, sharing enthusiasm and just building a vibe almost as you describe. And the innovation was driven, not through secret, but through people just sharing their enthusiasm for what they're doing and building off each other. And as you was speaking, it kind of reminded me of that. And one had been lovely if the sector was more Silicon Valley. Yeah. I've got, I've got, I've met people have been to that and CBO building in Central London. You can obviously Brent Reams here and anytime you want. And great space, great space. But I can imagine that by the way, I can imagine that we've been meeting so much. I'll a little pitch there, a little. Great cake, everything brilliant. Good question. But we're at Canal side, right? We're down this side of regions canal. And I would love down that side of our building. I just want a massive sign that says, "Revolution is welcome." You know, 'cause this building should be a crucible of space by which we start new revolutions and we come up with the ideas and sometimes when I'm in this building that I'm in today, I just feel for a moment how many crazy decisions ideas started in this building and are now big, well-functioning charities. And I think of those that are spun out of NCBO like Citizens Advice, Caff, and others. But actually a million conversations have gone on in this building that have started a million new ideas. And I just think like as a sector, like let's not forget that we were incredible at. And that space, we are survivors and the, you know, is it a mother of invention, you know, necessity? And I think that is where we are incredible in this space, better than any other sector. That's where volunteering comes in, right? 'Cause a lot of our charities that exist big and small, they started because someone in a local community saw a need and they wanted to have their own revolution, right? They wanted their own revolution to make sure that that thing wasn't a problem anymore, right? And it was better and was addressed. And they brought other people with them usually. And that grew and grew and grew and grew and grew over time or is in the process of growing or whatever. And I think that's, you know, you're right to remind us of that, 'cause it's so important. I think that piece about the sort of the Vive Check, should we call it, is also an interesting one as well. 'Cause I think, I think like when you think about where that's gone well in the past, like when volunteering has had the spotlight on it and we've told the right stories and that sort of come together, that people will come, right? And I know we can slightly do munger about whether we made the most of these kind of opportunities, but I'll go back to the pandemic again, you know. When we needed people to volunteer, when we cleared the decks and made it easy to volunteer, and there's a whole range of that, and that was a unique situation. But like my personal view, and I've talked about on this podcast many times, is like, people want to volunteer, they want to get involved. Like there is latent demand. You know, we need to help them do that, and part of helping them doing that is, is telling the right story about volunteering and the impact it makes, and making it easy for people to volunteer, and sometimes that's just getting out of the way, right? Sometimes that's getting out of the way and letting them have their evolutions. I think that's so important. - I think best practice to inspire new ideas is great, best practice that's like, everyone should be doing it this way. It's not always helpful, because everyone's operating in a slightly different context, a slightly different community. You need best practice to inspire you and some possible ideas that you can energise and tweak and change. And so I think there's loads of space for that, in that kind of really positive and energized way. And, you know, the solution to homelessness in the UK might not even be solved yet. It might come from some 19-year-old who just thinks, "I wonder if I could go volunteer for a shelter charity shop, and then while they're in there, you know, happens to read something and think, "Wait, I know the answer. That's what we should remember, is that, that is what we are creating. We are creating an environment where the volunteers of the future become the social entrepreneurs of the future and become the solutions to our biggest and most complex problems. And as it has always been from when we were originally conceived, back in Victorian times, where we all came from originally. So I just, I just, I can't, I can't lose hope. I just, there's not an inch of me has lost any hope in the fact that this, we are incredible now and we have the potential to be incredible for the next 100 years. Seems like a good time to take a break for our sponsors. As a volunteer manager, you asked where many hats, No doubt your inbox is overflowing. You're using tools
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Earlier this year, prostate cancer UK achieved their third award and said that going through the assessment has been a valuable and insightful experience, a great opportunity to reflect, learn and grow. So if volunteers are part of your vision, make investing and volunteers part of your strategy. Find out more and sign up for your free no obligation quote at investinginvolunteers.co.uk. Kate, as you was talking, I couldn't help but, first of all, I should plug a really fantastic read if anybody is really interested in the history of charities because it is just in Davis Smith's history of NCVO, which is were for read and it absolutely explained the somebody origin of someone the most well known charities in the UK which were spawned through NCVO's hospices and different guys is over the years. So that's where we're for read and also I should say that I don't know if you spoken to one of your former chair, Martin Lewis, but his big thing was very much around the vibe around charities and the positivity and telling positive stories if you've not that be a good conversation to have. I wanted to pick up on where you were in terms of bringing everybody together and capturing some of those that innovation the vibe that already exists in the sector and obviously I suppose because of who we are around volunteering and you talk to it and you know bringing people together and capturing some of that and enabling them just to talk to each other and share that intelligence and so on. And I just wondered where mutual aid fits into that because they may not be members of NCVO of course but increasingly volunteering and that's what we saw it through the pandemic is really coming out of communities coming out of well meaning people who just want to deal with an injustice whatever that might be and sometimes that doesn't even turn into an organisation maybe spontaneous maybe it's short lived but there's such a groundswell of mutual aid as well and I sense historically integrated. And probably the sector is not quite known how that relationship should work I don't know if you've got a view on where that fits into this kind of convening role that you're talking about. So I think we're going to might just grab my personal view and totally not evidence based but I think we're going to see a continuing swell of mutual aid. I think there's lots of things about the charity model, the register charity model that is you know we've still got more registered charities, charities registering with the charity commission than closing every year so the sector is still growing in the terms of the register charity model. Well actually talking to my think about my own daughter she wanted you know she was very frustrated about lots of flags going up in our village and wanted to do something about this but Harvey was I just want to do something. We bring some people together in the village to talk about why is this even necessary if we want to celebrate our British heritage is there a way of doing that that doesn't feel so threatened to other people. I just want a conversation about this I want to see if I can get a few people together via social media to do that you know and then when it's done it's done and it's over and I don't want to continue with this I don't want a charity I don't want to set up something where we meet every week I just want to do a thing. And for me that is incredibly important civic action right that's really important civil space. I'm talking much more about NCVO and you probably realise this a little bit more in this podcast about NCVO's relationship to civil society rather than just the register charity model. So it's because I think the registered charity model may have its limitations going forward in future I think because of the opportunity to shape charity regulation we run a bit of a risk that some aspects of charity. So it might be quite vulnerable to government who don't think some of our glorious charities should exist we just sort of you know we go so we go and announcement that the charity commission is going to ask slightly more rights to make a decision to close a charity. And that's probably right it's an important safeguarding measure against charity structure being abused but you know what there'll be new models emerge you know the support of governance in charities it's an expensive model to support if you're having to support a board of trustees. You have to start with a subcommittee then you have to find a treasury so we know that there's a lot about this module that means that actually we'll probably see a whole load of new emerging models in civil society space and I do want to think about what the role is of NCVO being able to support those organisations because as we just touched on earlier. So I think that one individual today might be the month million of 20 years time right so how do we really support in that space and I think that is a good challenge so things like mutual aid you know we just need to encourage people to care about their local communities. And that might be still setting up a local club visiting a neighbour and really being also really really clear about what are the things that matter in that space and for me the main thing that matters is safeguarding and that you think about the implications of safeguarding but we overcomplicate it when we start saying it's safeguarding then you should register as a charity because then you'd have got gift aid on that gift of 25 pound and then when you register as a charity you're going to need to get at least to cover. So I think I love the mutual aid module as long as it's done safely and well and I think there is a role to play in ensuring people do it safely and understand why it needs to be done safely but I think these models are going to grow. So that's kind of a really interesting reflection and some of that potentially also links us back to volunteering right which is about how to make things as easy and frictionless as possible because all of that stuff is friction right all of that stuff it's ultimate end point is it's harder to get involved it's harder to volunteer it's harder to do the things you need to do and and I'm absolutely with UK it's got to be safe and it's going to be legal right but like there's got to be a better way of having that. Putting all the friction in the way that that we we often find ourselves doing you think there's some sort of modern organizations have developed in the sort of digital age that like their model it sort of seems to have really interestingly like bypassed a lot of that friction that's not to say they're not they've not got sort of charitable structures or anything but like I think for example of Parker and is my most obvious one that started as one person with a group of friends in a park doing something now it's a global movement right and and. So it's a very important thing for it's ability to really involve volunteers in a very frictionless way because my personal view because you know of how that how that organization is developed to maintain almost what's most important to it which is almost about how it started and it hasn't had to put all those things in the way and maybe that's back to being a cheerleader in a sort of in a very circular way like friends you years like you know helping us you know or cheering for us when you know to help move some of these things out the way from us and. Highlight those things as well yeah I think so I think it's some it's probably easier if you're establishing a new organization to think about how do you have the least possible set of kind of frictions that's a great way to describe it in your voluntary model I think it's often hard when you're an established organization your work is maybe slightly higher risk you've got a board of trustees sitting over that looking at the risk I remember an excellent excellent debate and I was at young rise versus cancer when we were talking about how much risk. We were prefer to take in safeguarding and I know that sounds crazy and we had a policy zero tolerance and one of our very very experienced qualified social workers said if we have an absolute zero tolerance issue I wouldn't be allowing say 18 or 19 year olds to maybe go for a drink right they're legally allowed to but I wouldn't ever be allowing that not a mixed age group but a you know an older adult group a young lives versus cancer work with up to 25 year olds and she was a little bit more than I was. and she was like, "If I don't allow that, what I'm starting to do is not.
not allowing people with cancer to live the same kind of lives that they would be living if they didn't have cancer. And so almost by default, you know, and it was a good challenge back to us about, so what are we doing here? She was like, if we are trying to ensure that children with cancer levels normal life is possible, that they're accessing everything that their peers are accessing, that they're not losing out as a result of their cancer diagnosis. Should we be putting in a whole load of restrictions or should we actually be mitigating for the risk as much as possible, but accepting that we have a role to play in supporting these young people to live, you know, a life that 18-year-olds live, which has some risk in it, and working with their parents on that, working with them as young adults in that space. And so it was really interesting then thinking like, so what does that mean for working in volunteering? How do you do that? But still keep the organisation safe, you know, our trustees are volunteers, they're not qualified social workers being paid to be trustees to make some of those complex decisions. So I think what I'm saying is I'm just using that as an example is some of this is quite tough, right? And when you've done it this way, forever, stepping back and saying, actually, should we take some of these restrictions out? That feels quite frightening and for volunteers and trustees, particularly that could feel quite frightening. So how do we challenge each other on that as well? Where are the organisations that are new that say, actually, we haven't got that factor in our volunteering recruitment process. And here's the evidence of how many times that's been a risk in this organisation. You know, we don't take two references, we take one. How many times has that been a risk? And try to use more of the evidence to drive the decision making around some of those frictions. It's interesting to use one of your examples, everyone, about solving homelessness. The truth is, probably it's going to be a whole range, it's not going to be one organisation or one person that solves homelessness, it's going to come from collaboration. And it probably won't happen like, universally, it will happen in local communities. And local communities, one by one, perhaps with the sort of, including the sort of thing you described about your daughter trying to put together in a local community on a sporadic kind of basis. It's those kind of things that are going to probably turn the dial on some of those growing, but in transitable sort of problems and challenges that we face in society. So it's good to hear that you're sort of thinking in those ways. I just wondered how that sort of plays out. I suppose I'm thinking most of it across the four nations, because, and across the rest of the infrastructure, so we've got association, volunteer managers, you know, there's other bodies as well. How we collectively play that sort of convening role, I suppose. And maybe internationally as well, because I mean, I don't know if you're connected with IAVA, the International Association of Volunteer. And, you know, I love their stuff because it reminds me there's a whole world of volunteering out there, which we've often missing the UK. You know, what can we learn from Africa? What can we learn from Asia? What can we learn from South America, North America, whatever. And I suppose, yeah, I just been interested in your thoughts and maybe it's going to be more of the same, but how NCVO kind of fits in that, but also plays an active role in just helping that ecosystem sort of thrive, I suppose. Yeah, I just think a little bit like I've said, because I think my view is that that's not from a top-down controlling, trying to hurt the cat's approach. It just, it just, it doesn't work because our vibrancy and our difference on a local level, the difference between those organizations. And I'm not saying there's not too many, I'm not saying that some organizations would be more financially sustainable if they merged or the kind of complexity, but also their difference in that space, the uniqueness, the tailored expertise they're being in that space is also incredibly valuable, right? So sometimes we shouldn't have the cats, we should just try to limit the size of the room. I just think it's like, you just need some different approaches to this. A one of the big things is, how do we use new technology, particularly really a significant interest for me to really drive communication so that people know what's going on, that people will never know everything going on in this sector. It's absolutely massive. It's huge. People have talked to me about the Covenant Council and said, you know, Kate, there is one spilety of the Covenant Society Covenant Council is to make sure that government works well with civil society. And I'm like, right, so you think I can ensure with a group of 12 people the whole of government is working well with the whole of civil society, neither of which are homogenous groups of things. It's like what we can do is try to encourage that approach, build confidence in those partners to work together, build understanding of those partners, and then partly trust that they will go and do that. You need that kind of big picture helicopter view of the small interactions, the levers you can pull to improve the environment by which people do what they do, that we don't actually try to control it. It just isn't controllable. So how do we make sure that those voluntary organisations are working together? How do we make sure that their information is accessible? How do we promote the fact that they even exist? You know, and I think it's just keep going in that space as some things I've talked about that's about access to data, evidence, our networking events. We've been thinking today about a range of kind of summit events and conversation events where we're just letting people talk about what they're doing in a space so that people can go off after that meeting and make their own connections. I can't do it all for you. We're not very big. Everyone thinks that it's a massive great beast. Sounds like just leaning into being a member organisation, right? Like the roots of what it is, being a really great member, membership organisation to me at least is about bringing members together to kind of make the magic happenings on this matter. You can take that further, but if you start by the like we're a membership organisation, the value is in our members coming together and you know a lot can flow from that kind of. How do we make those people come together and bring together the shared expertise and the shared participation within that group? Yeah, absolutely. Again, similar to what we're doing. We're doing volunteers, right? Exactly and I should obviously add that you've got to be into when. So if you're an NCBO membership, there's no up to date guys, get on the website. The other thing is like a lozable and geo-organised, I didn't go out or we didn't know that was happening. We would never told. I'm like, are you a member of NCBA? Are you a member of a Keeve? Do you open our news letter? They're like, no, we haven't got time. I'm like, well that's why you don't know what's going on because I cannot see, I cannot follow you home on the bus reading at newsletters. We hide each and every one of you. So there's some people who like me too. Well, they probably don't actually, that would be weird for them. You need a podcast, K. That's what you need. You can read them out, that's the yeah. They can listen on the bus on the way home. So I suppose a good point to ask, what's, why are you, but what are you hinting with your strategy? What's next, what should we be looking forward to hearing from from Keeve and from NCBO in the next few months? Well, I mean a couple of big things I suppose. The Covenant Council is going to be announced relatively soon. So that's the council that is being set up by 10 downing street in order to better coordinate and it's not just the council, it's going to be a team also based in 10 downing streets of better coordinate, the relationship between government and civil society which is very exciting and I've been asked to chair that council. So a little bit seat in my pants from a workout how to do that, but that'll be great fun. And the other and incredibly important thing that you need to everyone, all your listeners need to not only look at full, but go right now and look at the website and join is our amazing Million Ax of Hope campaign, which is a campaign that's going to build up to a week of action on the 13th to the 20th of May, which is just reminding us why civil society is so incredible, a million acts of hope going on every single day. This is not broken Britain. The majority of people in the UK are very happy to support their neighbours. They want to volunteer, they want to make it better, they want to do all the things that you're talking about, they're busy volunteering, donating to charity shops, giving blood, doing whatever they want to just for the benefit of everyone around them. And we need to fight back this awful narrative that this country is broken and divisive, the anger the hate in the best way this sector can, which is not with a party political position, but just a reminder of the brilliance of what actually everyone is doing all day, every day across the UK and we are incredibly proud of we facilitate a lot of it, but like we've said, and things like mutual aid and mutual action, some of it we don't facilitate who cares. People are just out there actually loving their community, is loving their neighbourhoods, loving their causes, donating, making a willing leave and a gift who knows what they're up to, but that is going on all day, every day in this country. And if it was true that we all hate our neighbours, we are all polarised, this divisive suggestion, this narrative that that's how it is in the UK. So reality is that that wouldn't be going on in it is. So we want to celebrate that loud and proud, I'm keep calling this the year of the fight back, I need to push back on some of that narrative that nobody cares anymore, actually millions of people do care, every single day through their voluntary actions they do care, and I, there is a website, me and Axe of Hope, our dog. We are going to have a little look for more information, it's not part of political, there's going to be loads of advice and guidance about what you can do, how do you talk to your boards about getting involved, and you know we'd like literally thousands of our incredible organisations shouting loud and proud, 13th to 20th of May. Can we want to create a different story for the
the UK media to promote about how incredible it is to be here and to live here and to be part of our local communities. We need a different narrative, we need to give them a new story and that's what we're hoping. Everybody pulls together and does. It's just brilliant. And what a great note to end the podcast on that call to action for whoever we get involved. So thank you for joining us, Kate. Sharing some of your philosophy so early into your intensive year, I'm sure some of it's still in the formation phase or not really agree with your board. Maybe back in the year, this was all rubbish. No, no, no, no. And yeah, lovely. Well, maybe you should come back in here and tell us how you're getting on. Thanks, Kate. Take care guys. Thank you. We're in. Wow, Matt. What a fascinating conversation. I really enjoyed that. It's just great to hear Kate's vision, but actually the passion for the sector was really encouraging. Well, Kate is certainly a breath of fresh air, isn't she? Yeah. For me, lots of really exciting thinking and lots of things I really strongly agree with actually. I think this kind of optimism about the fact that people want to be involved and people are being involved and there's loads of brilliant, brilliant stuff already going on that we need to talk about more is a really important point when it comes to volunteering. And I think it can sometimes be easy for us. You know, I consider myself guilty of this as a sort of professional involved in volunteering sometimes to do things like, you know, look at community life survey, look at the numbers of people volunteering and feel like the story to tell is one of challenge. And yes, there are challenges out there, but look how those challenges are being overcome and look at the look at the impact that is being made by volunteers and civil society basically everywhere you look, right? And if the story that we tell is a graph pointing downwards, that is the wrong story to be telling. I'm really encouraged by the notion that this feels like a really participatory solution to this. It feels like a really citizen centric solution to this, which is NCVO as a membership organisation bringing its members together to share from each other, to learn from each other, to take the best of what each other are doing and importantly tell a story together as civil society about the difference that is being made and with volunteering and the actions of volunteers being a key part of that. That's really exciting to me and I'm really excited to see what happens next. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I suppose a cynic could say we didn't talk an awful lot about volunteering, but in a way we did, but we talked about it in the context of organisations, of charities and in a way that's also quite refreshing because you know, it's very easy to think it kind of siloed about this is volunteering, this is fundraising, this is something else, but actually I got impression Kate looked at this as she should in her well, I suppose, very holistically and about people making a difference in local communities and in national communities. It's easier on a volunteering podcast isn't it, it's easier on volunteering as a sort of means to an ends in itself and yeah, we can talk about the dual benefit of volunteering, we can talk about volunteering being sort of transactional things for a volunteer, but volunteering doesn't exist in a vacuum, does it? It exists as part of society and as we touched on in the podcast, so many important parts of society absolutely depend on volunteers and people giving their time and I ask, crucial. I really enjoyed her answer to our conversation around mutual aid, that really struck a chord with me just recognising that some of the structures around charity governance and the way we do things, sometimes I risk appetite, I guess is what she was getting at, gets in the way of just enabling people to do things, to give their time to solve things in their community, a common theme for us on this podcast, but I quite liked hearing that from Kate, the story she gave about her daughter just wanting to make some changes in the local community, gets some people together to change the narrative around flags in a local community. I thought was really encouraging, really refreshing and if she's successful in her thinking about just changing NCBO into convener and just bringing those conversations together, then I think that NCBO is probably a really good, got a really good, hopeful future ahead of it, as a sector. Well, thank you Kate, brilliant to speak to you and hopefully she comes back to a little bit again in the future and we can talk about how she's getting on. Yeah, for sure. So if you enjoyed this podcast, which I'm sure you did, you got to the end, then please give us a like and some comments, but most importantly, as I say, every episode, please do tell least one other person about the podcast so they can benefit too. But for now, thanks Matt. Thanks Chris. I'll see you in the next one. Hi everyone, Chris Wade here again. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Kate as much as Matt and I did. I just wanted to pop on the end of the podcast just to remind everybody that time for impact doesn't just facilitate great conversations in the podcast format. We do provide consultancy training and many tools for your continued development in your volunteer in strategy work. I wanted to mention particular in this episode that we are actively recruiting lots of charities onto our comparative volunteer experience survey. So do get in touch if you'd like us to help survey your volunteers to check that they're happy and that they are getting what they hope to get from their volunteer experience. So not only that you get a score, but later on in the year so that you can compare your volunteers experience with the rest of the sector to see how you compare. All the information is on our website. You know how we're to find us. Please get in touch. I'd love to have a conversation and talk you through the model if you're interested. Bye for now.
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