The Navigator’s Guide to Finance: Featuring Sanjum Singh Dhaliwal

[Music] Hello, welcome to the App Aside Podcast, I'm William Gallagher. I sponsor this week a masterclass and clawed by Anthropic. More about them later, although if you're a subscriber to App Aside a plus, well, they're the last to hear of that, plus you will get plus. Tammy, times she's had a word plus in one sentence. You'll also get App Aside a plus, which this week. As I cheat, let's give some credit here. This is almost practically always or always. This is the idea of my coach Wesley Hilliard, Oh, where's Hello? And what's the idea this time? Anything happening? Anything on your mind at all? Well, since it's such a dead week, we figured we'd talk about Tim Cook for no reason. His legacy, what is it? The reason why I'm bringing this up and I wrote a little on the blog about it is, I've seen a lot of really honestly just terrible hot takes about Tim Cook. A lot of discussions about Apple car for some reason. We'll probably touch some on it in the main show, but the the post show is definitely 100%. Tim Cook, what did he do for Apple? What is his history going to be about? We talk about Steve Jobs and his huge bombastic product releases and changing the world with iPod iPhone Mac. What are we going to talk about with Tim Cook? Nothing, Apple Vision Pro. Let's not go there. That's for later. At least we've all heard of Tim Cook and we can examine him in detail. John Turnus, the new CEO. He said he's seen some things about Cook. I'm seeing preposterous things about John Turnus. People exclusively revealing what is going to be like. Well, I doubt he knows what is going to be like. He is definitely definitely definitely no question going to be a clone of Steve Jobs. And very definitely totally no, he isn't. He's going to be, it's all be as if Tim Cook has never left. I mean, the truth is, Tim Cook is becoming what executive in charge of Trump really. But Turnus is bringing his hardware engineer. He's an engineer and he's a really interesting engineer for it. I think that's all we can possibly know. What are for now? The most interesting thing, obviously the topic of the day is going to be Cook and Turnus. We have a few extra stuff at the end if we get there. We'll see how long we spend on this main subject because it's pretty much the whole show. The most interesting thing I think about John Turnus is that we know nothing about him except for his appearances in public. I mean, and that's easy to say about a lot of Apple executives, but this is especially true. We know where he went to college. I don't think we know his wife's name. I think he's married. People have mentioned in online forums that he's married. If you search it, Google confidently says that he's married. But if you follow it through, it's a link to a post on LinkedIn, which is a link to a 9-5 Mac article, which has someone commenting in the comment section that he's married. So, Google will tell you that he is, I don't know. This, it's just interesting that he's continuing this. We know nothing about the guy kind of motif. And, uh, yeah. I think I might know a pixel more than you. I mean, one thing I could say is, nobody knows his age, which is really frustrating because it's either 50 or 51. And if it's 51, then it's the same age as two of the previous CEOs. And I've forgotten which ones they were now. But I was digging into the statistics here. It's not a lot of digging actually. William's like seven or eight Apple CEOs, all white male, mostly around the same age. It's a diverse group. Really, it is. But, um, tennis, there's two things I think we're really interesting, the one I was digging into this week. And one is that his first big appearance was in 2017, when, uh, I don't know, with this one before your time, Apple did a very unusual thing of coming out to talk about future plans, basically for Mac pro mac users. And it was about the Mac pro and things like that. You read the transcript. Mac Brown table. Yes, that's the phrase. Thank you. I could not bring that to mind. You read the transcript of that. And there's Phil Scher, there's Craig Frederiki. And they're being the usual interesting and sending subs. And Ternis is silent. And to way, way down, it's suddenly there's a slightly technical question. And boom, he's off. He has the answer to that. And then he's in the conversation. He's making all sorts of comments for it. And again, he's as interesting as the other two. But it's funny that that was 2017, because also that year is, I believe, and I know he did this. He presented at WWDC. He presented the new Mac lineup. So I mean, WWDC, WWDC or around that. In that year, he announced new Macs and things. And it was good. It was fine. It was capable. He wasn't, didn't have that kind of flair that Craig Frederiki came into being with. But he had it and you kind of knew he knew his stuff. But then flash forward. And I missed this. I don't know how we. John Lentz has been so under the radar that I don't think many people noticed. He gave a commencement speech at his college in 2024. And he was fascinating in it. I mean, talking about. It was an engineering college. He was talking about engineers and that mindset, that desire to solve problems and make things better. For it was just really riveting stuff and also funny, because he admitted having nearly rect the University of Pennsylvania has won and only CNC milling machine. He said it was given an aim of crash for the rest of his time there. So the guy's funny. He knows his engineering. He has a lot of. One team champion. Yeah. One team champion. Yeah. Yeah. Are you just making that up? Or do you know? No, he was in the college swim team. Apparently. Well, so someone was kind of poking fun at this, because apparently it was almost by default. He won a race almost by accident. But he was in the swim team and he definitely looks like he was on the swim team. People have been talking about his appearance a lot and he's. He's been kind of a fantasy. What is he? What is he going? Yeah. Well, you know, and he may not be behind the Apple Watch, but like. Well, he was behind the Apple Watch because hardware. Do you know what his current? So this is fun. There are two hardware chiefs at Apple's. Senior Vice Presidents. One's hardware engineering and one is hardware the other one. The design. Is that Molly Aston? Yes. Yes. Yeah. No, no, no, no. I'm talking about Johnny Sharouji and John Terence. Oh, right, right. Sorry. Okay. Yeah. Two Johns. Yeah, actually, I want to just take a second step back there. I was really sarcastic about descriptions of Ternus' opinion, opinion, appearance. And I made the crack of what is he a woman. And that's. Not because I think you should be, but because women for God knows why reasons are forever picked on this. Not used to a man being doing it. So I suppose it's fair. Is it more egalitarian? We should just stop it all. But anyway, Johnny Sharouji, who, as we know, as we know, definitely was definitely going to leave Apple. No, he wasn't. But has now been tempted to stay by being given a longer title. Is that what you mean? It's too. Well, well, we're going to have to discuss Rougi. We're probably going to be bouncing around a little bit, because there's a lot of crossing connection points here. So, just to go down the news list, suddenly it's a Monday afternoon, and there's just a post on Apple newsroom out of nowhere. John Ternis to step in as Apple CEO as Tim Cook becomes executive chairman. And then, five seconds later, Johnny Sharouji promoted to Chief Hardware Officer, which is a new thing that didn't exist before. No, I didn't realize that. Yeah. It's funny, because I've been using it, and I don't know if I'm been wrong to use it, but he's getting pushed from, you know, being a vice president. It's still vice president, but it's senior vice president role to a C-suite role. Now, senior vice president might have been C-suite, I don't know, but C-meaning chief, right? So, C-suite, Chief Executive Officer, there's Apple's Chief Financial Officer, Chief Operations Officer. Now, there's a Chief Hardware Officer, which means he's basically a half-step down from CEO now, instead of being a senior vice president. And what he's done is absorb John Ternis' responsibility. So, he's still, just fab, he's still Apple Silicon, as you said, hardware design, but he is now also hardware engineering. Is it hardware design? I'm going to have to look, because that's going to drop me nuts. Let's see. Does feel like different roles. I mean, it's not like when Johnny I've took a software design as well as hardware, but it feels like somebody who's great with processes isn't automatically going to be great with every now and then. Hardware engineering is basically hardware design, so we were conflating. It's hardware engineering, which was John Ternis' position, and hardware technologies, which is Johnny Srujee's position. They are now one, right? And it makes sense. So, what Srujee has basically done, it now, I don't want to get, I don't want to pick, this isn't pick on German week, but we seem to be coming back to this luck, because he's had a lot of very odd reporting lately, and we'll get into more of that later. But one of his odd reports has come back to haunt us of Srujee claiming not how he was going to retire, but that he was going to move to a different company at 61 years old, even though he's Senior Vice President at Apple, the highest position in his field until now, and accomplished more than anyone could ever accomplish in his field with Apple Silicon. He was going to leave for God only knows what, pay? Definitely not substantial gain or popularity. Who knows? But he was apparently leaving, according to some person, someone, some tipster that overheard an email. Well, sorry, I've heard the email. I like that description. Yeah, I kind of just want to ask, if he'd gone to Intel, he could have saved Intel, look, he could have been a hero there. Anyway, yeah, okay. It was never going to happen, but now we're retroactively making up a, sorry, I'm not going to accuse anyone of making anything up. A person familiar with the matter has clarified that, Sruji was definitely going to leave until Tim Cook bribed him with this new C-suite position, but it couldn't happen until Tim Cook stepped down and turned us took over, and suddenly Sruji was going to be promoted, and he just had to wait a couple more months, and he would get that super special fancy type all nonsense. It's like cunning. That's what it is, it's total nonsense. The reality is, is Sruji earned this position. The man created the modern world of Apple with Apple Silicon. And so Chief Hardware Officer, a C-suite position where he's going to probably spend the next five years, ten possible years, at least five, I would assume, basically building out the teams that will ultimately replace him, which is every leader's job, by the way, we'll get into more of that later. If you're a good leader, there's two things that you do. One of them is delegate, and the second thing you do is find your replacement. That's checkbox one and two if you ever are in charge of something. So, I'm out of work and some harsh, corporations than you. I'm not thinking to be, "Beauty say I'm not," but you find your replacement and you get rid of them. That's what you do, you get an ass, you get an ass. You find out who could possibly take over for you and you make sure that they're incompetent. Get it, please. Anyway, sorry, Suruji is now in charge of this, and he has brought in, he has announced his five officers below him. I called them his underlings, which is, I guess, a meaner way of saying, "Yeah, he's basically delegating. How do you run such a large division? Because we're talking about a huge portion of Apple. What we're engineering is design, manufacturing, testing, everything. It's the people who come up with the new keyboard that breaks in the MacBook, right? It's the people who come up with the more rounded corners on the Apple Watch. Now paired with, and the same leadership as the guy who's helping design the chipsets. And Suruji's known as a hands-on guy, but now he has to step back and I think maybe he wants to because he's done the job. And according to some reports, he's pretty, I don't know, strict is the word, maybe. He's not going to be a walk in the park, as they say. He's going to be very much in the game. He's not going to be sitting in an office waiting for a report. I think he's going to be walking the floors and checking on what's going on. That's going to be a good, I think, for Apple. I mean, it's not that Ternis wasn't doing that, but having him go from Apple Silicon, which is doing so well, maybe hardware technologies needs a little bit of that too. So it's just a side point, but I'm hearing this might become a thing. Do you remember where you were when you heard the Tim Cook was stepping down? You were at work, weren't you? It was my shift. We were kind of blindsided. What's funny is I was trying to write a story, I believe, about Sevant coming back in July, and that's a very touchy subject because somehow it involves Charlie Kirk. So that's a whole thing. And I'm sitting here trying to do research on terrorism in America and then suddenly Tim Cook is bouncing, he's stepping down and I'm just overwhelmed while of it, but yeah, it kind of wild. I was actually in a living room, Mike texted me and I'm sitting there with Angela Moive, and I want to tell her, I want to tell her, but she's watching a YouTube video and I can tell I check on my phone and my phone will show me the Apple TV because I can see there's an hour left on this video and I don't want to do it. And then she gets a notification on her phone from some news outlet, broke the news before me. I was thoroughly annoyed. She stopped watching to talk to me about it. I could have interrupted it. So yes, I remember where it happened. Why did I go down that line? Okay. More seriously about why do you think this happened now? Because one of the reports that followed after was the kind of inevitable report was, is Tim Cook ill. I truly believe that Cook would see out the current administration and the proper launching of Apple intelligence, but instead he seems to have waited for the 50th anniversary celebrations and for Apple stock to vest, which I know it did on April the 15th and I honestly am not fully sure what vesting stock means, but John's decisions are made so far in advance. He's not even making them. It's a requirement. He sells them every now and then just because he's trying to liquefy his assets, that Cook's made it clear he doesn't want to be a multi billion trillionaire. He sells his stocks when he can at the legal limit and basically donate it and invests it and stuff like that. Like he's not doing it to become rich and go live in an island. So to your point, does this feel like it came out of nowhere? I'm going to say no. I choose size to this. The news broke. That was quite shocking. But I think the fact that it was the news and it is John Turner's, I thought they actually seeded it very well for a very long time. Nobody had the slightest surprise that it was Turner's. We all had the surprise that it was now, currently. So yeah, they did a good job. I thought I think. We knew it was coming. We didn't know when. On the show, I was pretty adamant about Cook not going anywhere until the end of the administration. But we also were hedging our bets on, well, if he is going to be executive chairman, he could just be an ambassador, which Apple has literally now said out loud, they didn't hide it. They were just said, oh, Tim Cook is executive chairman will continue to be the government liaison for Apple, which means he's going to deal with China, India, Brazil and UK and EU and the United States. And the fund star, yeah, yeah, which keeps Turner's hands clean. I think the reason why it's not out of nowhere, we didn't know the timing. And I was skeptical that it was 2026, Cook clearly doesn't want to go anywhere, but I think you got to get out while the getting is good. And this is the peak of his legacy moment. He's, we'll get more into this in the Apple insider plus segment. But I think Cook's strengths have reached a point where they can start to, they're going to start diminishing soon, meaning the supply chain is going to start showing some weakness because of global unrest. The emergence of spatial computing is going to be slow and difficult to achieve, even though it is their new goal for the future. Apple health is going to expand and continue to be the new temple feature for Apple. And that is going to be part of Cook's legacy, but because of federal regulations, it's going to complicate things. So Cook got the ball rolling on a lot of things, but now we're going to get into the tough portions of those rollouts. And he gets to walk away and say, I started it. You had, you have it now. It's your job. So he didn't, I mean, I was on the health. But logistics that has always been his bag. I wouldn't you think that the supply chain having difficulties would actually be the opposite. It would be a time for him to do his doing this more. The world's going to move on with her without Tim Cook. Sure. Again, I think we'll get to this in a second, but I wrote a blog post too about this kind of hero worship that we have for these executives, not just Apple, but in general, like people know the names of these tech executives. And they blow everything they say and do. And I don't know that that's really that important. I mean, it's fun to follow what they're doing and they're, they can sometimes be entertaining or sometimes just cringey looking at McDonald's. Like it's one of those things where Wall Street has made it a point that they move on news of an executive changing. And I understand the importance of an executive. I understand that their decisions can make or break a company. But as a certain point, a company is too big for that executive to make too much of a dramatic change. To be clear, when John Ternis takes over, nothing is going to change at Apple externally for years. I mean, he's going to have his own idea. and we're going to see tiny shifts in certain places. Right. We might see more of a tanker. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So, Cook is an important asset to Apple and he has done amazing things for Apple. But it's also, Apple has done a lot of good things for Apple. It's not a monolith. It's thousands of employees, hundreds of managers and dozens of executives making decisions up and down the chain to make sure this thing runs as smoothly as possible. And Cook has helped with that. But the whole point of leadership is making sure that your replacement can continue the job. And if your replacement can continue the job, it's your failure. As a leader, you didn't prepare them enough. You didn't pick the right person. And I have no doubt that John Ternis is going to be good at the job. And we're going to see that reflected in future decisions he makes to change Apple in ways that he needs, he wants it to be changed. But as you said, it takes a long time to make those changes. It's not like we're going to walk out in September and suddenly there's a MacBook with a Ethernet cable or something, right? Like it's just not going to happen. It's funny. He said it about CEOs though. I wouldn't have said I knew I couldn't give any CEOs of companies other than technology ones. And maybe that's because I work in that field. But then you mentioned McDonald's and look at the way Ronald McDonald dresses. He does stand out. So okay, yeah, they do get some attention for it. And I'm not sure John Ternis has that rock star appeal, but then neither did Tim Cook and he gets treated like one. Okay. So I'm curious about where September the first is actually we should say is when John Ternis officially takes in I mean, that the CEO already has he's doing the job now. I'm sure he's shadowing or being shadow. I imagine that WWE DC will still be front about Tim Cook this year. It'll be his bow at what do you think? Tricky, maybe they walk out together. It'll be interesting to see how they produce this one, but I have a feeling. I don't know. I mean, this is one of those things where Ternis is still like he's still SVP technically of hardware engineering. He's still in that role transitioning his, you know, to Seroji and Seroji's underlings. But I don't know what that reflects as, right? It really just depends. We might get a little peek under the hood, Apple's corporate culture. Like you said, is he already technically acting CEO? I don't think so, not on paper, not legally speaking. But I would assume that a lot of this transition has already more or less taken place in there as they ramp up towards the fall because the last thing you want happening on September 1st is his actual handover, right? It should already have been handed over because the eye case is my office. Yes. It doesn't have to launch. So it could be a bowing out for Tim. It could be a handshake moment. Maybe Tim walks out and says, "Good morning." And then Ternis just walks up and shakes his hand and takes over. Like I think they could have a moment here. I think it might be fun. I think it'll be a coaxial final bow kind of thing. I think also there might be some political things about, I mean, there's got to be a thing going on in Apple. Craig Federica and Phil Schiller, "Do they have to start calling John Turner sir after the first of September?" And how do they feel about that? I don't think they've ever heard of that kind of company. Well, there was Dr. Gilimideo. That was a thing, actually. But yes. Interesting. He denied. He was blaming other people for that and yet he was doing it. So, yeah. See you. It's what can you do. Okay. All right. So that's WDC sorted out. I'm still interested in the whole Siriusi thing because it's, well, apart from the fact that I'm now learning to pronounce his name, so I want to keep, you know, saying it, to prove that. The move from processor to the rest of it. I think Apple's always, Apple has always pursued this idea of owning the whole stack, of doing the whole thing itself until recently it had to get modem soon, but it's got those of itself. Now, it wants to own everything so that it can control everything and everything can work together. But one thing I read about Siruju was a headline that said, "This was Apple's, the start of Apple's drive to do its own processes." And I'm thinking, does it not, I mean, I don't know these arm, but Apple designs them, TSMC makes them. I don't understand if there could be any processor difference with this change or am I missing something really obvious? I don't know. That headlines sound stupid to me. I didn't read that story. That they already make their own processors. They're making their modems. They're making their own Wi-Fi chips. Top to bottom Apple is controlling its silicon. I'm not sure what the story was getting at, but Siruju being oversight of the entire hardware team doesn't really change anything in that aspect. They're going to continue pursuing more ways to vertically integrate hardware and software. They're going to continue replacing every possible part inside of the product. Maybe Apple starts making their own batteries. I don't know, but I don't think that has anything to do with Siruju. One thing I think was interesting about some of the stories coming out was this usual attempt to spend everything as a failure. Yes. Okay. TSMCook's leaving now because AI is so bad he had to quit. Oh, now that's what I didn't say. Well, that's very persuasive. I could think about that one. I love it. He's so embarrassed by AI. He just had to up and quit and give it to somebody else to take the dot or whatever stupidity. Then there's stories about Siruju. Oh no, Siruju can't run the entire hardware division himself. He had to choose new chiefs or whatever. It's just like, no. He's delegating. Right? I don't know if you, again, I don't know if you understand how businesses work, but Johnny Siruju is not in the lab mixing vials together and finding the perfect component mixture or whatever. He has people for that. He's done image. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So he chose Tom. These are names I'm not going to get correct. Tom Marriab. He was formerly integrity chief. He's now going to be chief hardware engineering. The new Silicon chief is Sriabalon Santhanam. So tell me if I said that horribly wrong. You said that. You said that. You said that. You asked me. Okay. Right. He's a civil engineering group. Basically same. So I don't think anything changed there. Zanjian Chen. I don't know. I can't do Chinese letter combinations. I need to learn those better. I can do Japanese all day, but Chinese have different combinations. Maybe Zanjian Chen. But Zanjian Chen. Maybe. Anyway, I'll have to learn that better. VPN charge wireless chips. I believe another way of saying advanced technologies, which means no change. Maybe a change. I don't know. But he has been moved to advanced technologies. And then platform architecture. Same. Tim Millett. We've seen him before. Management, Donnie, nor to use the same position. So those are the five areas of focus and the five people in charge of those areas of focus that will be reporting directly to Johnny Srujee. And I found it really entertaining because the same story or at least a maybe a different story. This was the Srujee wanted to quit story. And oh, that's it. There was a story about there's been like 12 Bloomberg stories this week about the transition and all of them that I don't know. They're really going hard here trying to monetize or at least drive the market on the snooze. But one of the stories was about how upset people are and turn us into status. Yeah. Yeah, he's going to have trouble keeping his people because they're all going to quit. And everyone's leaving Apple and there's no engineers left or whatever because if you've been following the stories over the past year and a half or so, everyone's quit Apple and gone to Intel and Spotify or something. We actually worked today that there are only 164,000 people left at Apple. I prefer to leave it. Yeah. Yeah. I read those stories too, but I'm down with a bit of a problem. You do Trump math on this. That's a 16,000% decrease moving on. There will be people who want to get these jobs and then get them. Perhaps it's having any company for it. There will be people who leave maybe over this, but they're going to be reported as leaving because of turn us. Every person that quits include, I swear we're going to hear about a janitor next week. It's going to be because John Ternis took over. So go ahead and prepare yourself. We're going to have 100 articles between now and December about every single person who's leaving is mad because John Ternis is terrible and they think the future of the companies and danger or whatever. Although there's something to be said about that from the other side, which is something we'll say in a moment. This episode is brought to you by Masterclass. You know, this Masterclass is famously where the very best people in their field have made you hours upon hours of really specific, really practical, really personal videos about their craft. It's like having them working with you and the topics range across, well everything, certainly technology, you find a lot about that. But for example, I'm a writer and this is a pretty broad ambition not to say, "never just what I wanted to do was get better at writing." So I had some lessons with Aaron Sorkin. Shonda Rhymes gave me a lot of tips. Margaret Atwood. I mean, come on, Margaret Atwood told me ways to create better characters. Then because Masterclasses one subscription that gets you everything, I could study some very seriously. But if I've passed you on the street, I've told you this. I also just worked through Jodie Foster's classes on filmmaking. I'm not making a film. I watched just because she's so interesting. I didn't especially expect. I was going to say to learn from what I mean is I didn't go in with a lesson I was looking to learn. But she actually spent an extended time working with a scriptwriter and it was eye-opening. Seeing a brilliant director and a brilliant scriptwriter, both sides of that relationship and I've used that since in my working with directors. Speaking of relationships though, we're not that far from Mother's Day and isn't all that much further to Father's Day. Is it there is not one single chance that they wouldn't like a Masterclass subscription from you? I mean, they'd like it a lot on the day. They'd love it for the whole year. Plus, Masterclass keeps adding new classes. So there's never been a better time to get in. Right now, as a listener of the show, you get at least 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/appalinsider15. That's 15% off at masterclass.com/appalinsider15. So head to masterclass.com/appalinsider15 to see the latest stuff. And thank you, Masterclass, for supporting the Apple Insider podcast. Did that tantalize you enough? Was that good? Just trying to tease you into that. One thing we just said that people will leave. I wouldn't be surprised if Ternus Fires people as well. Because Tim Cook did. He got rid of Scott Fullstool. We know reasons for it, but he still did it. Ternus has got to be in charge. And one of the things we have learnt about him allegedly. Do you know, I'm going to draw that back. One of the things we've heard about him rather than read is that he is more decisive. I believe more to such than Tim Cook. I believe that because the decision sounds like an engineer. This is a problem here. Is the solution do we do or do we not kind of thing? I can see him being quite methodical about that and getting it done. Whereas we have heard previously that Cook is more liable to take opinions from most of his people and get for a consensus. Ternus will fire people, I'm sure. And we will hear about it or not. I don't know what else he's going to do. Well, that's another of Bloomberg's 30 stories about anonymous tips to us saying something about an email they overheard of just like Ternus, whatever, you know, like I just I'm so tired of these anonymous tips to us. It's become a gossip column, William. It's not it's not even like news anymore. It's now we're sharing the opinions of other people about their bosses. I don't understand. But some good has come. We've now got you a phrase of ever hearing an email that's going to be in my idiolect from now on because it fits so well. Okay. It's just so so Ternus might be more decisive. We don't know. Sure. That's great. It fits. What does that mean? Was Tim Cook sitting at the desk himming and hawing over what color the iPhone should be? I'd sometimes. They're meaningless points. They're meaningless statements. Yeah, remember a quintuple to Isaacson Steve Jobs' biographer. One problem Steve Jobs had with Tim Cook was that he was not a product person. He was great. So many. In fact, I think the full quote is that Tim can do everything, but he's not a product person. And yeah, we have the story that did happen and has been confirmed by multiple sources of Tim Cook looking square at what is his name? He's the new CFO. He looks square. He's happy. And he's just like, what are you doing here? Why aren't you on a plane to China? Like that sounds pretty decisive to me. I didn't. I mean, I seem to remember Steve Jobs' story like that. I didn't know Cook had done it as well. Wow. Okay. No, there's there's there's personal story. Yeah. Basically, I believe now I might be crossing stories here. So forgive me. But I believe this is the whole thing that happened around 2014 when the new leader's name escaping ping. Anyway, I can't what can I think of his name? Anyway, the new leader of China who was definitely slowly pushing China away from more democratic norms towards more what it is today. One of the first things they did was have the television, their state run news run a story about how terrible Apple is basically and how they're being unfair to Chinese customers. And I believe that is the same moment that Tim Cook basically said, we need to take care of this now. And I believe it might have been a Sabi Khan that would is one of the people getting sent on a jet direct without any clothes had to drop land in China and buy his anyway. So just yeah, like those examples like that tell me like Cook is a fine decision maker. And it's it's always so funny to me like in any kind of type of transition like this, people are going to be desperate to make comparisons. And they're going to try and choose teams. And so if they're like, Oh, well, we're ready for the hardware guy. So they got to look for reasons why they hate Tim Cook now. And even though on paper, Tim Cook increased the value of Apple by like 1,600% or something stupid. Yeah, I remember John Scully, the most maligned CEO ever took Apple from was it single digit millions into 800 million before he just seemed to lose interest really. Okay, so yeah, there's precedent for increasing money. It's not anything like the scale Tim Cook. Right. Yes, it makes me curious. Like we're dancing around the subject because it's going to be the post show. But truly makes me curious of how we're going to talk about Tim Cook in the future. Because I have a feeling there's going to be a few sticking points that are going to color his legacy that maybe we don't have any control over. And that's not going to be great for Cook. I think that's the problem. I mean, one of the things about Steve Jobs, that stuck even though, you know, it might have been mildly exaggerated by media as far as we can tell was his attitude. And like, and then there's also like the whole thing with his kid that was definitely blown out of proportions by certain movies apparently. Yeah, he was a percently over it. But he was not saintly, but from my understanding and from again, other people outside of the film industry saying, it's not quite how it went. Like he was definitely not taking ownership of that child, but at the same time, he was not like screaming in a parking lot at her or whatever. I named the Lisa after, although what was the nonsense that they made up that Lisa could stand for? I can't remember the elbows, integrated systems architecture or some utter nonsense like that. A background. That's the word. I love that word. Yes. Okay. So this that, but I mean, Tim Cook's legacy, obviously, he's going to try to put a legacy out. And he already has the tan hall meeting he had this week with Apple staff. One of the things we know about it is that he's talked about things that he think he got wrong. He actually, it was the phrase. It's something like the list of mistakes I made would be an extraordinarily long one. And I think it's beyond self-depification. I think it was honesty. Yeah. Yeah. I think the so people are going to cling to that because, you know, whatever, but Tim Cook's a human being and he makes mistakes. I think that's what he's referencing is like, you know, I've made mistakes in my life. Right. I chose the wrong jam at the cafeteria one day. Right. That's a mistake. Like, of course, you know, the, the, the mistakes we're talking about, like with Apple as a corporation as an entity that we can observe. I don't know. I, there's not that many what you could call, quote, unquote, mistakes, mistakes, mistakes, whatever you want to say. For me, I think it was a mistake with you. It's right. What was the mistake? Okay. I was going to say, it was a mistake to pursue autonomous vehicles, but the end result was beneficial to Apple because of what they learned about AI and robotics. It was a mistake to chase down and even announce air power. But the end result was better because it's what allowed them to create magsafe and, and prove charging standards for our basically everything because of it and Chi charging and all of that. So it's what is the Edison? He didn't make a thousand mistakes. He made one light bulb. or something like that. Like it's. - Yeah. - People always want to want to color these things. - They are. I began to say that it's not like a disagree with you. It's always what somebody says before they disagree with somebody. I would have put it to air path I did. And there's also a big one is Apple Maps and actually an unusual thing this week is we learned why Apple Maps started so badly. They didn't test it properly, which I suppose we could have guessed, but interesting to hear it. - Apple Maps looks great. - Absolutely. - That one infinite loop. - I don't know what the problem was. - Yes. - You can find you where around the whole of Cappuccino. No problem. But I kind of like don't care about those. I don't feel like there's anything we know of that Cook did that was bad. I mean there seems like that there's bad stuff Apple does with unions and retail outlets and how it treats its suppliers and ultimately that has to fall on terms of shoulders because he could just stop it if he didn't want it. So there's got to be things like that. But overall it does feel like he got Apple to a great place and we are benefiting from it in the products we have that we wouldn't have otherwise. So I'm not, am I pro Tim Cook or anti him or neither really? I just think he edited incredibly difficult job. - I think stunningly difficult, unimaginably difficult. And the kind of the best time he understood. - I think that's the best answer because we really got to stop like, I don't know, idolizing these people. They're very interesting and I would love to read a book about like their morning routine or whatever, right? Like they're a fun study because we can learn a lot about these people who dedicate their lives to this business and achieved the position in the first place. Not anyone could step into Apple CEO and do what Tim Cook did, of course. But they're not gods. And one of the, one of my, so the story that had me at my wits end this week was this idea that John Ternus' biggest hurdle as Apple CEO. And this is, this is my headline. This is the headline they ran with. His biggest hurdle as CEO is retention, which is madness. Because we've talked about how people are at an age that the famous names are not for the likely to be retiring. He's not what it means. He's going to have to try to persuade him to hang on. What's even funnier is the story was hedged entirely on a statement made by a former Apple executive. Let me find his name. Well, why you look for it? I can tell you there have been seven CEOs of Apple and five of them were fired from the post. No, not fair. Mike Marker actually stepped aside. Four of them were fired. Marker stepped aside. He helped hire John Scully and then Steve Jobs obviously died and now Tim Cook is resigning. But otherwise you get fired when you the Apple CEO. This episode is brought to you by Claude from Anthropic. It's, it's AI that works. For example, I mean, truly try to say this quickly because it takes longer to describe and for Claude to do it for me. While I was not recording this podcast, I will always push a stream deck button to mark a new chapter or various other things. And at the end, I end up with a list of timestamps. But maybe we started recording a few minutes early and also my timestamps. So I have done them. They're just in minutes. So for example, this week this episode, the recording session ended after 119 minutes. But it started four minutes and 23 seconds early. I need to know when I'm editing how far into the episode we have a chapter or a cough for something like that. So I take my list of times, my list of minutes and Claude resets it all to start from zero from the start of the recording and, because I asked it to, also reform as all of the times so that instead of just minutes and seconds, it shows me hours, minutes and seconds. Now I know this is far from the most complex thing Claude can do, but it took moments. And it makes editing so much easier and quicker. It's one of those things now where I wouldn't do it any other way and why in the world would I? Plus I'll tell you this. I tried exactly the same thing with chat GPT and with Apple Intelligence. And they both got it wrong. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop it. Good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or you're strategising your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. In my case, it lets me concentrate on editing. Instead of trying to calculate where 104 minutes and 35 seconds is when we started at 4 minutes and 30, you know, just madness. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at Claude.ai/AppleInsider. That's Claude.ai/AppleInsider and check out ClaudePro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode. Claude.ai/AppleInsider And thanks to Claude from Anthropic for supporting the AppleInsider podcast in so many ways. So Tony Blevin's, do you remember that name? Yes. He was the former procurement chief. Basically, he was Tim Cook's replacement, more or less. Now, this guy's been gone from Apple since for a while. I don't have the data in front of me, but he may be 2022 or something. And he did an interview. And what's funny is, this is Bloomberg. They mentioned the interview, but there's no link or reference to even who did their interview or where it took place. Did Bloomberg do the interview? They didn't even take credit for it. I mean, if it was them, great, tell me. But they didn't even say who did the interview. It's just in an interview and space and someone overheard it. And he said that, well, he was talking about a couple of things. He's the one who mentioned that Ternus is one of his biggest challenges. And this is actually not wrong. It's just so funny that like this is the premise of the piece. So let's get to it. His biggest challenge is that Steve Jobs was basically the one who selected the almost entirety of the current Apple leadership. Minus maybe three people who have since retired under Tim Cook. We're going to see Eddie Q and Craig Federigee and these big names start to finally move on. Retire change is under John Ternus. And this is going to be a huge challenge to replace them. Here's the thing though. It's both right and wrong. They have big shoes to fill. Absolutely. I'm not going to downplay that. Those are very important people and we've grown to love them because of their presence and Apple keynotes and these affairs where we get to see them. And they they've made memes of them and it's we get to be entertained by their presence. Otherwise we wouldn't know their names if it wasn't sure apples push to have their these names out there. Other companies are not the same. Tell me who the chief hardware officer or chief engineering officer of Microsoft is right now off the top of your head. Sarah McFallond. I'm sorry. I just shot in the dock made it up. I was going to say that's a good name. What didn't it? I could have bluff this out for at least a minute. No one's going to check. I generated that. So anyway, Pleavens' point was basically it is going to be a difficult thing. And of course Bloomberg. I don't know built a whole story around this idea that not only is it bad that these people who have been at Apple for 40 plus years. Someone asked Chris Espinosa how he's doing. The goal is he is going to quit. Employee number eight is. Yes, I mean, I that. The idea is basically that yes, it is going to be difficult. And I agree with Pleavens on that point. Filling those shoes is going to be a lot. We're going to miss Craig Vetterie gay for sure as fans of Apple and people who watch these keynotes. Here's the thing. They're not going to have any trouble replacing them. I think that's another point. It's a difficult position to fill. But they're not going to have any trouble filling it. Those both can be true at the same time. The point of Bloomberg's piece was like it's impossible to fill their shoes and everything's going to catch on fire and die. And then of course they go into that and they've lost like 12 engineers from AI and a dozen design members left with Alan Dyer. Whatever. I really dislike this piece because it just seemed very silly to me. But my point here is once again stop with the hero worship. We like Craig Vetterie gay. We're going to miss his hair. But he has already chosen who's going to replace him. That person is probably ready to go right now sitting in the aisles just going to step right in and lock step as if nothing changed. There are plans for products and designs and system software features and services for the next decade at Apple. The runway is long. It's not as if someone's going to get hit by a bus and then we're going to forget how to make an iPhone. Right. And so this whole idea. idea needs to stop because it's driving me crazy. We're going to be fine. Apple's going to be fine. We've seen some really solid transitions in the last few years and this cook to turn his transition seems like it's probably going to be one of the smoother ones. If they can transition CEO, that easily, I think they're going to be fine on software and marketing. Unless they all retire on the same day. Then great. Oh man. I think we're going to be so excited. Moving on. I am trying to think that has ever been a point. I mean, I'm totally with you. I just wonder is there has ever been a point in Apple's history when a significant number of senior executives have left or moved on for any reason out around the same time? And I don't think that has been last year like November. Okay. Craig, we're still there. Phil Schillis today. I'm not talking about that high. I was one step lower. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One step lower. We lost like the legal person and the environmental person. No, we lost a lot of vice presidents at once. And that was a heyday for Bloomberg. It was like trouble and paradise. Everyone hates him cook. Um, and just now he's going in a few weeks time. Are they okay? No. No. He forgot to mention that they were all retiring. They're just. They don't want to die at their desk, William. Tim Cook might have a hole, but come on. Okay. Have some pride. Um, that is probably. Honestly, I've all of that. The only one that's surprising is Lisa Jackson because ahead of environment, Apple's seeing this big thing for 2030. I, I suppose I'm thinking of taking for granted, she'd see that out. But you know, you're right. Are they still doing it? Still going on? She did a great thing. She's doing whatever she does now. It happens. Yes. Here's my hot take. I'm going to have one hot take and we can get a couple of hot things to ask you. Yeah. Okay. Your hot take is. So John Ternis is going to kill the iPhone full. That's it. That's the hot take. He's going to look at this thing and be like, why are we building this? Cancel that project and Tim cooks and we like go for it boss. And that's it. Okay. So uh, Ternis starts on September the first. The announcement is due anytime from site the second week of September. He could do it. You're right. That's that is. Well, remember you heard it here first and quite possibly last. Okay. Not going to happen. But it's, it's just fun. These hot takes are so silly. Oh, he could also kill off the Apple Vision Pro. Couldn't he? I mean, why not? I saw someone actually say, um, opposite of that. Or like, maybe John Ternis will become CEO and make everyone understand what Apple Vision Pro is. He like built the thing. He was in charge of the division. It's okay. We're, we're having fun here. I think. Okay. Yeah. It's going to be an interesting transition. I think it's going to be an interesting time for Apple. We just as always need to keep a cool head dig through all of the manipulation and weird headlines and just understand that these things are going to happen. Apple did not find the fountain of youth. They did not invent a time machine. These people will die eventually. They have to repair. Okay. We have to move on. We have to move on. It's all about it. We do move on, but we step away from terror like this and got something completely calm, normal, relaxing that is on my list of things to ask you about, which is just iOS 26.4.2 being released to stop the FBI accessing my messages. And things, that's the headline I read. Is that actually what's going on? All right. So it's tricky. All right. This is mildly political. I'm going to say a political thing we're going to move on. So this story revolves around, I don't know if anyone listening. People in the United States might remember this story. There was a kerfuffle and someone's going to get mad at me for using that word to describe what happened at a ice detention center where people were vandalizing the facility and setting off a bunch of fireworks. And one person brought a rifle and shot a police officer in the neck. It was a whole thing. And they were arrested. And they were designated. This was their, they were really excited about this one. They were, they were designated Antifa, which is a made up terrorist organization by the Trump organization. It doesn't exist. It's an ideology. They don't, they don't exist. Anyway, they were designated that. And this was going to court as this big deal. And the FBI wanted to prove that first of all, there was a secret antifa leader and collusion and all this stuff. So they got a hold of their iPhones and used a forensic tool and what, and that's a fancy way of saying they bought something from an Israeli firm, seller bright probably or gray key that allows them to break into iPhones as best as it can. Now we talked about these things in the past. They're not like perfect hackers. What, what happens is is they look for vulnerabilities. If you have the latest iPhone and the latest patch, it's going to get like nothing. It's going to get a couple, whatever is not encrypted on your device basically loose notifications that haven't been deleted yet and just scraps of data about time and place GPS location type stuff. It gets almost nothing. The older you get and the older the OS version, you get the more they can crack and steal because they're using vulnerabilities that which Apple patches very quickly. It's one of the reasons why it's important to update your device. Well they plugged in this phone that had the owner of the phone that was involved in this incident at an ICE facility, deleted signal off of their phone because they had used signal to communicate what their plans were. But the FBI was still able to get a lot of their conversation even with the app deleted because notification center, the notification system on iPhone had stored basically plain data of the notifications of the messages coming in. Some of them might have been chopped off and only said part of it, but it had the raw data of signal even without the app installed. They were able to recover information from that and FBI testified that that's what they had done in court. So except hang on. Would that data have been the actual messages or the app intelligence summary of the day because it could be ludicrously wrong what's been taken by the FBI? Well, the trick is the summary collapses the data but the data is still there. Okay. It's funny. But all right, to be fair, this was a failure of two things. One, it was a bug actually in Apple's notification system. It's supposed to be deleting those notifications pretty quickly, especially as a part of the app bundle one, the app is deleted. So something went wrong there and things were being kept longer than they should have. Also, this is a failure of the signal user. They had a feature turned on in settings, which you can still turn off that allows notifications to be visible on the lock screen. You don't really want that from an encrypted messaging app that you're using for your secret communications. No wonder I can't be a criminal. I would never have thought of that. It's so obvious. Now you've said it. Okay. Yes. You can always set it up granularly in the signal app and say only show the name of the sender and not the message. But this person had the messages coming through as well. So I got to say this because it's just flashbacks about I was once in a pub sitting opposite to him, his whole group of us. And I worked at that. This woman was having an affair because she kept getting texts. I'm an unknown number. And there was something furtive about it. And it turned out she'd kept him as unknown so that nobody would spot it. And yet I worked it out in front of her. I was I felt quite sure. I can't see at that point. But okay. Yeah. And so this shouldn't have happened. Now, okay. So to be clear, this isn't a story about Apple is trying to stop the government from solving crimes. That's not the story. That's how people might try to pitch it. But the story is this is a security flaw that should not be there. And Apple patched it with IOS 2642. So now those notification center system stuff should now be more robust and protected and no longer able to be scraped by these forensic tools. And the data should be deleted when it's supposed to be. So that's been reinforced by Apple. And I'm sure the FBI doesn't like that. They never like anything to do with encryption to be fair because it does hinder their access to criminal devices. But as we've said before in the show, they were solving crimes before the iPhone. I'm sure they can solve crimes after encryption. So perfect. There were these two more things. I said there were three things I wanted to ask you. One of them's really quick. I have a fitting might take a while. Let's see the quick one first. A 200 megapixel camera is coming to the iPhone. But not yet. And it might be later than people said before. Though I don't remember when they said it would be before. Why do I care about a 200 megapixel camera? This came alongside another one which I didn't put in the notes of a curved aperture lens. So Apple obviously is just working on advancements for its camera systems. We've done quite a lot. It's hard to do more in the space that we have without making the phone into a DSLR basically. So one of the things that we've done is, we've done a lot of things that we've done. can do is increase resolution, but you're not going to be taking a 200 megapixel photo. This is one of those Samsung Galaxy gimmicks that they have where they do have like an obnoxious, probably 200 megapixel. I know it's 100. I'm sure some phone now is 200 where they pixel bin and they combine the pixels together to make one big pixel basically. That's what Apple would do here. They would bend it down to 24 or maybe they would increase to like 30 or whatever the multiple would be for 200 megapixels. It would definitely be bend and you would definitely be getting a normal 24 48 megapixel shot from this lens. It just means more pixels available to designate. You're going to be a focus pixel. You're going to be a light sensor. You're going to be a long exposure. You're going to be short exposure and that can all be a one cluster across the view of the lens and get this really dynamic computer manipulated, not manipulated, but what's the word Apple used to use? Computational. Is it computational photography? Computational photography. I haven't talked about it in a while, but that's basically what it would be doing is combining multiple exposures and multiple frames. Maybe they might take a black and white shot with some of the pixels to get more texture information to recombine that back with the original image. There's a lot of really cool stuff you can do with computational photography, but that's what more megapixels would allow. Currently, the max on iPhone is 48 megapixels. Okay, so nice, but I shouldn't be distraught if it doesn't come out in the iPhone 18 Pro Max. It'll be cool if when it happens and if it happens, these things are only going to get bigger. I'm sure there's a button somewhere, a raw mode that'll let you take it to 100 megapixels to pixel photo, which in reality means that you could print it on a billboard and it'd be the size of a billboard and visible like 200 megapixels is gigantic. I remember buying a Sony camera and it was one of the first with like 60 megapixels and I was asking someone about it and they're like, oh, yeah, this just means the dots per inch can be bigger or more or less when you're printing the resolutions bigger. So at 60 megapixels, that's basically like the size of a 20 foot poster on your wall. It's already just gigantic. How big these things can get. Think about it like this. A 4K television is basically the equivalent of a 12 megapixel photo. A 65 inch 12 of a 4K television is a 12 megapixel photo. Yeah, so it's enormous. Yeah, gigantic images. Yeah, it's made me think. Yeah, it'll come where it won't. The thing I thought would take longer is because it involves the Apple Vision Pro. This is not one where I only know the headline and I so actually if you don't know the story either, this could be shorter than I think. Star Wars. I presume it's the Mandalorian film. Whatever the latest Star Wars movie is, they have saved some money by using Apple Vision Pro instead of what I don't know. Do you? So I wrote the story. John Favreau, I really like this guy. All right, go watch Chef. If you like movies, go watch the movie Chef. It is just a. I'll go read this. It'll just make you happy. It is a happy film. Go watch Chef. It'll make you hungry too. But yes, John Favreau, actor, turn, director, you might know him as happy from the Marvel franchise, he was Iron Man's assistant, then he started directing Marvel movies. It's great. He also stepped in and started directing Mandalorian. He's also the director of the Lion King remake that was kind of quote unquote live action. It was just CGI. But anyway, he has always been of the opinion that technology should amplify how we can make film. One of the examples of that is in Lion King, obviously a CGI film made on computers. How do you direct a movie that doesn't exist, right? And Pixar and stuff like that, you just see it on a computer screen. Well, he kind of leaned into the idea of putting on a VR headset at the time. It would have been an Oculus Rift. There was the other one that's escaping me. But he was wearing these. No, no, no. No one ever used those. So no one ever watched those. So he would wear these headsets and be inside of a virtual studio and direct where the animals should go and how they should be interacting from pre-vis. And that was a really cool way to do that. Well, when he started directing Mandalorian, they're making it. I don't know if you know this William, I'm sure the listeners might, if they watch Star Wars, they're direct. It's a green room. It's not even a green screen. It's just giant. Yeah, it's a giant felt room with nothing in it as except some boxes to use as props and furniture. And the actors are in full dress. The guy's there in the Mandalorian armor and then the aliens in a mocap suit, right? And they're just on this green stage of nothing. And they're performing the entire of everything, Tatooine, green room, the bar scene, green room. It doesn't matter. It's just a. It's the same stage. And it is amazing the actors can do this at all. I don't understand how they can pull it off. Hang on a second. Star Wars famously used green screens for everything and that was just impossible. How did you ever know where to go? The Mandalorian TV show used this thing called the volume, which was this wall of LED screens which was actually showing things on it for you to react against and it was affecting the line stuff. Okay. Is the film not doing that? Well, so my bad. I'm confusing with something else. My understanding is it's a virtual set. So maybe you're. Maybe I misunderstood. Different types of virtual set. But yes, it is. Different tiles. Different tiles. Yeah. So in any case, it's still difficult to film and frame on a virtual set if it's green screen or the dot matrix that we're talking about. Whatever they're using here, the point of the matter is, Favreau sitting in his director's chair can't really view how it's going to be seen at the scene result. Intellivision, it's easier because the camera can be connected to a TV and he can look at the monitor and say, "Oh, that's what it's going to look like." Mandalorian Grogu is being filmed in IMAX. Okay. I didn't know that. There's no such thing as an IMAX television. IMAX is a very specific format. So the only way to see IMAX is in an IMAX theater. Now he's not going to stop the film, grab the copy, drive down to the nearest IMAX theater and watch it to see if he got it right. Instead, he's got the Apple Vision Pro with a custom app that lets him view the footage on an IMAX screen in a virtual theater. Oh, I see. Right. Right. I've got you. Finally, that makes sense. Sorry, it took me a minute to get there. What's cool about this? No, I just wanted to finish today. What could it possibly be for it? But now I get that. Thank you. Okay. That's good. Yeah. And the reason why there's a saving money and he was on a podcast called The Town, and we've discussed it before. Good show. He was describing basically the problem with filming, obviously making these visually intensive movies as expensive, CGI is expensive. But one of the most expensive things about filming is getting the shot and then throwing it away because it wasn't the right framing. He's basically saying everything that ends up on the cutting room floor, whether it's a deleted scene that they didn't use or something that wasn't filmed correct or needed reshoots. That is all actually much more expensive than just making the film itself. So the Vision Pro lets him frame the shot properly for IMAX, see how it's going to be seen by the audience and allows them to grab the shot immediately. Right. He says the only thing that takes away from is when you do have to do a reshoot, you've already been in the seat looking at all the footage from every angle. And so when you walk into the reshoot, you know the exact angle and frame and direction that you need to give, allowing you to get the perfect shot. So it does take away from that aspect of it. Being able to see it pre-vis and all that on Apple, Mr. Pro gives him the ability to kind of skip all those steps and arrive at the final shot without having to reshoot. I mean we could talk a lot about that because there are other reasons to delete a scene that it doesn't work and you don't know to see the thing as a whole for it. And then, "Ah, what's his name? Eddie something, you read it, the mission impossible." And I was talking about taking out individual frames to tighten up the dialogue for it. There's all sorts of things going on, which is riveting, but another point of view. I'm fascinated by that. Okay. But that was it for the type of things we wanted to talk about for the day. But there is also an issue. I understand you. Am I right that you have some reviews to read out this time? I'm not sure. Right, so if you have enjoyed our show or maybe you hate our show or want to tell us an opinion or share a tip or anything like that, the best way to do it is Apple Podcasts because we check that every week for new reviews. You can leave as many stars as you feel like. And we like the criticism, we like the compliments. So this week we have two new reviews. First is, I should have read this name before I tried to read it online from this show. Christian to Kant, I guess, maybe I'm off 26. Five stars? Will they really call this iPhone fold? They're skeptical. They're going to call it an iPhone at all. It could be a whole new category between iPhone and iPad. So-- And they suggest that iPhone fold, maybe. It's not going to be called iPhone fold. That's, as we've said before, to placeholder. I think it's going to be an iPhone because if they call it anything else, let's say a Newton, it's just not going to sell because it doesn't have the buying power. Clearly, they're going for iPhone because if you look at the dummy models, the shape and size is very iPhone specific. So it will be some kind of iPhone. It's just what is its name? I don't think it's going to be ultra. But we'll see what they do here. The iPhone near, well, no, that wouldn't fit. The iPhone william. I could wear any of these, really. But yeah, OK. Not that long, too. We find out now. I suppose six months or something like that seems-- you know, you say that, and something seems longer. But OK, I'm sure you're right. It won't be called the iPhone, but that's going to be an iPhone. Well, we called anything, well, you know, because it's not going to come out. So the-- Because John Turner is going to stop it. You're right. It's going to be a Tesla. OK. You guys have to understand whatever it's going to have. Yeah, you had it here second. OK. OK. We're not that. We don't have a bet on it. Maybe we should put some money down on it. OK, so Crosby SW has returned. He's our young listener-- No, right. --the crew at once, the Appalachist fan has returned. Five stars. So they mentioned Tim Cook stepping down and Ternis taking over. Obviously, having built Vision Pro from the ground up, he knows what happened and why it didn't land. Is he going to finally fix it now that he's in charge of the entirety of the company? Or does he quietly move on? And if the Vision Pro-- I'm sorry, the Vision Pro 2 flops-- is it his fault or cooks? So a couple of questions here. I think first off, Appalachist Pro was made under his watch. Doesn't matter if he was the vice president or CEO. He had the say before it made it to Tim Cook. So I think not even though he's on a higher run in the latter, he's still the guy who made the decision. So it's fully on him. How that thing is or does or what it is as a product. And I don't think he's going to suddenly change it because he's CEO. He was the one who decided what it was going to be well before it made it to Tim Cook's desk, more or less. So I don't think that's going to change. Oh, there is a government precedent of this. And I mean, all governments everywhere. If it's a failure, it was cooks his fault. If it's a success, it's turn to success. That's how it will play. Yeah. Yes, of course. What was this story about right to letters? I'm going to make a reference that only three people are going to understand. And it's not one of them. But I'm intrigued. OK, go for it. I'm completely forgetting the whole anecdote. But someone came into power, a congress or president or something, and they were told, what do you do? And it's like, oh, well, you write two letters. When you give to yourself, after your first mistake, you read it. And then after your second mistake, it's for your successor. So anyway, point aside-- It's a thing. The Vision Pro 2-- I don't think it's-- well, OK, so first off, we have disagreed on whether or not Apple Vision Pro is a flop. Commercial success is arguable, right? That's a different term. Is it commercially successful? I would argue no, but I don't think that was the intention. Was a flop? Depends on Apple's success metrics. I think it did what it needed to do. So I don't consider it a flop. I don't think Apple does either. Vision Pro 2, flopping or not, I think mostly depends on what it's targeted as, and we won't know that until it's announced. But whose fault is it? It's still turn us. I think he was the guy in charge of the development of the first one. He will be higher on the run. But him and Saruji and those guys under Saruji, they're making the calls. And at the end of the day, Apple is a group of people. And the buck doesn't stop at one person. I think it's just one of those things where if it fails, everyone's going to blame a turn is or whatever. But I think it's more complicated than that. But I also don't think it's going to fail. I think this next iteration-- and the reason why it's taking so long is because Apple wants it to be more inexpensive and lighter. And if they can check both of those boxes with the next release, even if it's $2,500, I think we'll see the future of the product in this release. So whereas if someone else wants to give us a lovely review, how do they contact us? And if they don't, how do they contact you? If they want a bad review. So of course, Apple podcasts. If you leave reviews other places, we're not going to see them. We don't check those because there's too many. But yes, Apple podcasts just go-- even if you don't use Apple podcasts, if you're on Overcast, you can go to Apple Podcast, leave a review, and then just close it. And then again, it's scratch-crap reviews. So it's totally fine. We don't care if you're on a podcast. It's worth it for good reviews. So isn't it? It's definitely. That's why you should do it. So you can email me, westofapplancider.com. You can also find me on blueskyhully.tech, mass it on, hullytech, easy to get to. My blog, of course, is out there. You can reach out, tell us what you think of the show. I get a lot of good emails, get good questions from the emails. I've had a few purchasing conversations and things like that happen there. Always happy to hear from our listeners and what you think of the show. And if you have any pitches for topics or Apple and Sider plus, we're always happy to hear those. But William, back to you, where can people stock you on the internet? Well, actually, they can't. Nobody can. Not for the next week or so, because I'm going to be away next week. But other than that, you can't. New one, I mean, it'll just take even longer than usual. If you try me on [email protected], or there will be another YouTube 58K's video, if I get it done in time before I have to leave. There's been a new 58K's every Wednesday night for six years unbroken. So they'll be on this time, but it's a bit tight this time. So if you email me, I won't notice, because I'll be busy doing that. But then I'll be back next week. It will be you next week. But also, are you able to say who's going to be trying to step in to replace me as if such a thing is possible? It should be, like, worthily unless someone-- Yeah, I think you'll manage. --brain the money. --falls out of the sky. Yeah, so I'll be-- It'll be our boss, our editor, Mike Worthlee. He's great. I might have to help-- Leaps at the ready. But it'll be fine. We'll see where the news takes us over the next week and what topics we cover. Yeah, I'll definitely be listening even if I'm not here. But that's next week. As for this week, thank you very much everybody for listening. Thank you to our sponsors, Masterclass, and Cord by Anthropic. If you didn't hear anything from Masterclass, or Cord by Anthropic, it's because you're a subscriber, drop it inside a plus. In which case, hang on just one moment. We'll be back with more. If you're not, if you did hear them, but you'd like to not-- I mean, nothing. I felt like I'm insulting Masterclass and Cord. If you would like to hear the extended app inside a plus and remember, you can always join us through Apple Podcast subscriptions or through Patreon. And either way, you do it. It'll be a treat to have you there. But in the meantime, otherwise, what I will be back next week, but we will. The show will be with whatever's going on in this quiet world of Apple, where it's just the silly deads is in the middle of the year, nothing going on. I think things will crop up. But speak to you sometime. [MUSIC PLAYING]