The Music Fashion Film Interview

I would live and die by the art that I make and I feel so passionately about that. Because I've done things in the past where I haven't felt that way, my whole life and my existence is so tied to the work that I do, possibly in a kind of unhealthy way. For me, it's like art at all costs. The albums that I make are inherently connected because the next record that comes after the previous one is like a response to it. You are the greatest marketer who has ever lived. No one else but you could get those three people in a room to take a picture. I was sort of shocked that even I managed to do that and it was down to the fucking wire. We could go into that if you weren't. I really don't mind. The one day I woke up to 43 DM notifications from Charlie XCX, including but not limited to screenshots of text conversations going back to 2023. You don't always kind of say the most concise, perfect sentence that I'm doing right now, but I'm so nervous. Oh my God. I haven't been doing a lot of press. So it's like, I'm really like. Charlie XCX, welcome to Nikki at night. Hi, Nikki at night. This is a moment I have been waiting years of my life for. God, that's so sweet. And I am just so like, you are the total opposite of an overnight success story. Yeah. And you stand for like being true to yourself and not compromising your vision or your artistry and like to watch all of what's happened to you happened to you in the past two years, I think is just like been one of the greatest joys of my life lately. Oh gosh, that's really sweet. Thank you. Of course, I mean, I would love to just like start with like questions about like your approach to artistry and like the creative process as a whole. Yeah. Like you talk so much about like world building and persona and campaigns in a way that no other artist does. Right. How is like describe your approach to like persona and world building? Well, it's interesting. Like, I think I've always thought of music as this very kind of 360 thing, particularly pop stars and large kind of campaigns, I suppose. You know, I've I've always really been engaged in music. But actually I feel like more so the other things that come along with it. And I think when I really kind of started working with Ajika who I've worked with now, gosh, since probably like 2015, yeah, 2015, like that has been a language that we've really, really shared together and have really kind of that that's both of our sort of like, I don't know. It we get really excited about that. And we really love to kind of think about that like from the jump when we're making anything. It's equally as important. And actually for me at least when I'm making music, it really informs the direction that the music takes, thinking alongside and even sometimes before I'm even making music like the way I want to present it. Interesting. It kind of shapes the music that I'm making because it provides this sort of like set of boundaries in which I create. Yeah. And that can really help the direction of the music itself. Yeah, like filling the lines almost. Yeah, because I think when you're creating within this sort of set of rules, let's call it, you can get really potent with the decisions that you're making. Totally. Whereas if you're sort of creating in this like super, super, super broad landscape, you can find really cool things of course for sure. Yeah. But I think you kind of get to hone into a more distinct vision when you put a few little, yeah, like boundaries within it. So, okay, for example, when I was making Brad. Yeah. It came really clear quite early on what was Brad versus what wasn't. And that really helped, especially like lyrically, being able to kind of really like focus in on stories or lyrical content that specifically felt Brad, so like being very directional, lyrics that felt like a conversation, not being overly descriptive, being pretty blunt, those were all things that really kind of were helpful in like guiding the songwriting, but also, you know, that was really early reflected in everything else I was doing alongside that, like the tweets or the 360 Brad. Yeah, exactly. Or like even, you know, when it came down to like font design and things like that, it's like doing something that was like very, very simple and very kind of like forward, almost confrontational, but a little off. Yeah, a little off like pixelated, so it kind of looked like a mistake in a way in the way that when you're having a conversation, you don't always kind of say the most like concise perfect sentence. Like I'm doing right now, but I'm so nervous. Oh my God, you're nothing to be nervous about. I haven't been doing a lot of press, so it's back. I'm really like, no, it's we all are eager to like explore your mind, you know, like you are the greatest marketer who has ever lived. I truly believe like the way that you see culture and so clearly understand where it's moving and have this like deliberate, you're like deliberately counter culture. You know what I mean? Like I think it's like one of your greatest strengths to like identify what is so typical of a pop star and to intentionally go the opposite direction. Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's like I'm always responding in ways to things that I have done in in the past like, you know, I think the albums that I make are inherently connected because the next record that comes after the previous one is like a response to. Yeah. So when I'm thinking about music fashion film in ways that is polar opposite to brat, because brat was so, yeah, like very, it was very blunt. It was very off the cuff. Yeah, it was having these conversational songs and sort of talking about like living on the internet and the way that that affects me as a person and things like that. Whereas, like music fashion film is much more me talking more in depth about my process. Yeah. The way that I think about the way my life kind of changed during brat. Totally. And you're a completely different person than when you have a right brat versus when writing this. Absolutely. And, you know, the everything that happened during brat has been so influential to the songs that I'm writing for music fashion film. Yeah. How could it not be? You know, it's like I went through an experience that I had not gone through before and that, you know, my work was kind of opened up to this whole new audience who perhaps didn't really know like my history as an artist, which is totally fine. You know, that happens and I'm so grateful that that did happen. Yeah. But with that, you know, comes this sort of like, I don't know, like people obviously really associate me with that album and all the things that came with that album. And in a way, they kind of, it becomes these sort of like cartoonish personal traits, you know, like the kind of like girl who loves the colour green and like smokes, sex and like whereas sunglasses is like, it's like, yeah, like, yeah. And like, yes, that is a huge part of who I am. It's also just a fraction of who I am. Right. And I think that's the thing that I find really interesting about being an artist particularly in this day and age. It's like, I think people are really excited to understand you. Yeah. Which is awesome. But then I think once people feel that they do understand you, there is this hesitancy to then be willing to understand like a different facet of somebody's personality. And I think sometimes people feel that perhaps that's, I don't know, like not as real or something. Yeah. It's like, you know, humans are complex. Yeah. And that's always what I've loved about your artistry. Like, I feel like you are simultaneously the symbol of like an intellectualism. Like you are like talking, you have songs about generational trauma, the loss of your best friend, how my thoughts on motherhood into like 365 party girl. Like, you know what I mean? And like, it's, there's so many people who are one or the other. There's very rarely this ability to put both into one body of work in a way that makes sense. And I think that's your genius. It's funny that you talk about the kind of two sides to my work. It's like I feel like both really intersect because for me, you know, party music and pop music in general, it's like very, it's very sacred and serious in a way. So does an entire show is dedicated to making people understand? Yeah, but then at the same time, it's also really silly and fun. Yeah. And like those things can coexist. Totally. And I think there's this thing that still happens right now where if something is deemed as fun, I think people sometimes have a problem also understanding that as like being serious. Yes. And having meaning still, like something can be fun, but also speaking to a deep like experience of your soul. Yeah, and I think that is like a big thing about me as an artist. It's like I think the people who really get that really appreciate that. And I think the people who don't kind of really have a problem with it and like think I'm really stupid. And that's cool, that's like fine, that's you know, there's always going to be people who only listen to things on the surface. And I also think in general that like not a lot of people also like think about and pop music to the extent that like you or I or any artists would, you know what I mean? Like we see like the choices they made and the direction is even this idea of a persona. Like that is like something that's so interesting, like taking these pieces of yourself and intentionally like hyperbolizing them until it's almost like a satire of this thing that you already did, right? Like in the rock music video, you're smoking a cigarette in front of a mountain of cigarettes. Yes. It's like very that, you know, it's playing with the perception, you know, people have of you. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And we had so much fun making that video and that song. And I think obviously like, I think some people were really really sort of adamant that I was being like, I don't know, like really ironic and sort of like snobby with that song or something, which is so funny because that's such a classic kind of, that's like the conversation that was really happening around like room room and a lot of the early PC music stuff. It's a conversation we're so familiar with. I remember when PC music kind of first was sort of like being discussed in this way and sort of like early like 2014, maybe even a little before that 2015 and people were like, oh, they think it's so clever. It's all a big joke. And it's like, actually, no, it's not, it's like, actually really, it's music made by really like human people. Yeah. But having a lot of fun, and it's still unbelievably meaningful to them, but it's just a different approach that at that time in particular was like not very familiar. Yeah, what about room room? Do you feel like people didn't understand? Well, I think the music I had made before was really, really different. You know, it was very, it was very, yeah, I think room room came out after a sucker. And so, sonically, it was like a big jump. Right. I think what's funny is when you listen to my early, early demos from like when I was 14, I was singing songs, I had this song called Dinosaur Sex. It went T Rex, Dinosaur Sex, watch me roar, watch me roar, watch me be like a dinosaur. I mean, not my best, but I was like hopping around on stage and pretending to be a T Rex. I don't know where my head was up with that, but I was like making these like silly kind of almost like nursery rhyme type songs. And I was just like making them in my bedroom at home. And I was really kind of like trying to find someone or a group of people who could kind of understand what I was doing there, which was making these really like lo-fi, like kind of sort of very like minimal club tracks. They had some like humour, but also like kind of pop tone to them. And I really couldn't find anybody for a really long time who sort of understood what I was trying to do because I think everybody who I was coming across sort of thought it was like a joke or something. And like yes, those lyrics in particular were. But you know, when I met Sophie for the first time and when I first came across Hannah Diamonds song Pink and Blue, which I just got on like a young lean forum. I think he was posting about it. I was like, let me check this out and I loved it. And then I kind of, it was messaging Hannah. And then I met Alex A.G. at this, my friends like our magazine party at the ICA in London and he was DJing and I was DJing and like, I don't know, I was like, you get me. And then we sort of got to know each other a lot. And Sophie and I kind of simultaneously actually a little bit earlier. We were getting to know each other. And I just realized like, oh, actually like this group of people really understand this thing that I'm trying to do. And the first song that I made with Sophie was Room Room. And it was like pretty crazy actually. We had gone to, sorry, by the way, I'm just like talking. No, I'm very interested in this story. You just interrupt if you're like, oh, she's really going. No, no, no, no, no. I mean, I think it's like even it's like something I had in the notes is like I think a lot of your approach to creative direction and stuff has always been this like pairing of like things that are like high-row and low-brow. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's very like a high-low thing. Yeah. But I've always been obsessed with and always will be obsessed with, yeah. And I think like, yeah, so with Room Room, I think in a way it is a little bit that like there is some real like conflict in that song in terms of like the way that things sound. You know, there's this like very sweet sort of like kind of sugary nursery rhyme like chorus. Yeah. With that really kind of like hard like verse production. And yeah, I remember when we made that song, it was just like I had this sense of like, oh my god, I found my person. I found what I was looking for and it was it was a really it was like, I don't know, it was a wild, wild moment. And I feel like when you like go back through your discography, you kind of feel like Room Room is the start. Like you kind of birthing what becomes really your sound. Like I always felt like Room Room into like pop to into like how I'm feeling now. Yeah. Into Brat was like, you know what I mean? Like there's like a clear sort of like the pieces of the puzzle are coming together. Yes. With those bodies of work. You're so you're so right. And I think, you know, with especially with Alex and I, we were really growing as musicians, as writers, as creators, I suppose, like whilst we were going through that journey together because we worked on pretty much, yeah, all of the music that you just mentioned. Yeah. We were working on, um, together, uh, you know, maybe like whole records or at points like bits, but like pretty much, you know, and like I think we developed, um, our kind of confidence together. Yeah. And actually there is a song on this new album that is actually like all about Alex. Really? Yeah. And it's very, it's very sweet. It's really, it's just about, it's like a love song in a way, but it's, you know, it's a love song about my most long term collaborator. Yeah. I'm a big believer that there is such thing as like a creative soulmate. Oh, oh my God. 100%. Like, something about it. You meet and it's just like instantly like, yes, it fits. And you don't know why or how, but yeah. And we have that thing where we, we don't even need to talk about the things that we're making. We just know it's that we inherently know what we, where we're going. Right. And, and the thing that I feel so, so lucky about with Alex and I, I fill it with Finn, my other collaborator, and I felt with Sophia's, there was, there's no embarrassment. Yeah. Like there's, you know, you can come, you can come with the most batshit idea. And it's like, there isn't, we've worked so much together now that there isn't that sort of like hurdle of like, oh my God, I'm going to say this thing. And it might just like completely bomb. Right. It's like, we just say it and it's like, we feel totally fine to be like, oh, that's really terrible. And then we move. We're very quick. We're moving fast. Like, Alex is so fast. I like to work really fast. And we have this sort of like pace and energy that I think is like captured in the songs that we make together. Definitely. And yeah, it's this sort of unspoken language. So it was, when I was writing this song about Alex, it was, it was really nice and I played it. to my friend Aiden, not so long ago. And he said this thing that I made me cry actually where he was like, wow, how nice that you've actually like been able to tell him this while you still can. Yeah. And yeah, that was like very emotional 'cause I've, you know, I wasn't able to do that with Sophie. But you know she's so fucking proud of you. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think so, yeah. I know so. I know so. Yeah. But how did that conversation go of like, or lack of conversation as you described? Like, when going from, you know, brat to rock music and what this album was gonna be? Like-- You mean the song or-- (laughing) I was referring to the song, but also the genre I guess. Just to like put it out here, like, Claire's Day, I'll look into the camera. The album is not a rock album. Like that is a phrase that I never said. I never said it. You can read the text. Like whatever. Like I'm just, you know, it's like people will hear it and I'm sure there'll be a lot of people who will-- So if it's not a rock album, it's like, yeah, it's not. It's not, you're so right. Yeah, but okay, if it's not a rock album, then what is it? Well, it's a Charlie X Yacht's album. Like, I don't know, it's like, it's me, it's pop. Like for sure, it's like-- Yes. It's pop, but we're exploring, I don't know. Like, more sort of analog elements, I suppose. Like, Alex is playing drums on a few of the songs. It's like, we're working at like a sort of funnily analog studio in Paris, which is sort of funny for us because I think people associate sort of electronic elements. So, like, deeply with the things that I do. Yeah, the introduction of the album music. Actually, it's like, we have explored this world in slight ways before. I just think it hasn't been explicitly, like, a talking point. Yeah. But I mean, Alex has made like a lot of guitar music. Yeah. It's just his take on it, you know? And I think that's the thing. It's like, with me, it's always going to be, like, my take on something. And I know that that will, like, piss people off always. But it's like, it's interesting to me, like, to kind of take something and, like, reinterpret it in a way that I feel like only I could or, you know, whatever. But, like, yeah, the jump from Brad to music, fashion, film, I suppose it's, like, as I said, working in response to Brad. Yeah. It's like, I think that there's this whole thing of, you know, when you make a record that connects with people in the way that Brad did, like, that, I think, for me, that album, it's like, the most-- It was called that. Listeners I've had. Yeah, and it was engaging with-- It was this thing that, like, everyone felt that they were a part of, you know? And it was also this, I think, like, symbol of adhering to a vision and watching that pay off for someone. Yeah, totally. And it was-- yeah. So all of those things that you just said, I think it's like, there is obviously this whole conversation about, like, well, you should, like, ride that train, you know? You should, like, do that again. You should make another record that sort of plays into some of the sonic elements that people are now familiar with, with you and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And, like, I have no interest in that. Like, and, you know what? It's, like, maybe-- Why don't you have interest in doing that now? It's not inspiring to me. Like, this is the thing. If I woke up one morning when I was working on this album, and was, like, I actually really, in my soul, feel that I want to make, like, a club track. Yeah. I would do it, like, because I-- that's what I always have to do when I'm making anything. I have to just follow by, like, inner voice, to speak to you. If that's what my inner voice is saying, I'm doing it, you know? But for me, it's, like, that's not what it was saying. Like, I-- What was it saying? It was-- I think it was just, like, I have to-- It's so tricky. It's, like, OK, when you, like, think of a thought-- Yeah. --and you, like, say it out loud, it's, like, you're not really-- you don't really know, like, what you're going to say. You know, but you know what I mean. Kind of. When you're having a conversation, right? This doesn't count because it's an interview and you've prepped for it. But when you're having a conversation with your friends, or when you're, maybe, even, like, writing the questions for this interview, it's, like, the thought comes to you. Yeah. You know, it's, like, you don't know where it came from. It just comes. Right. And then you say it, you write it down, and then it becomes, like, the reality of, like, what you've said. And that is how I make music. It's, like, I don't know always where the idea comes from. Sometimes it's just, like, planted in my brain somehow. Yeah. And then I say it, and I follow it. And I guess that's, like, being inspired or whatever. Yeah. Sometimes I have nothing. And I'm just, like, sat in my house and, like, I got nothing. I got nothing. But then sometimes it's, like, oh, shit, this thing. It's just come to me. I'm going to explain it out loud. I'm going to tell Alex, or I'm going to just, like, make it on my own. And I'm going to, like, follow that. And I think, for me, it was, like, almost like a natural, like, rebellion against some of the, the rules, let's say, that were, we, I was kind of following you for a breath. It's like, it was just, I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense. It's, like, no, totally. Yeah. So it was, like, okay, well, we should go to Europe. That was the thing. It was, like, we should go to Europe to make this album because we made a lot of bra, here. So, like, let's just go immediately. Totally. I'm also a big believer that, like, you have to do new. If you want new creative outputs, you have to do new creative inputs. Yeah, sure. Like, even just in, like, being in a different location, writing in a different place. Like, you can't expect new ideas to come if you're going to a place that's, like, built off old ideas. Yeah, sure. That, that, that totally makes sense. And I don't know, I think, as well, it was kind of, like, um, yeah, just, like, wanting to avoid certain sonic choices, you know, like, okay, we're not going to use, like, razor bass on this record, like, we're going to, um, explore, like, starting songs with guitar riffs, rather than, you know, in logic, or whatever. And then, um, I don't know, like, approaching the songwriting, sort of, differently through this kind of lens of, um, talking about, uh, I don't know, like, the process of, of making things. Yeah. And actually, you know, what I think, Brat, taught me, which was a big fuel for this record was, like, it made me think about why I love doing what I do. Yeah. Well, thank for, I, um, to be able to do what I do. And that was a big fuel for this album, you know, like, I felt so grateful after the success of Brat. Yeah. And I never thought I would be in that position, you know, as you said, at the beginning of this, I'm like, the opposite of an overnight success story. Yeah. I was very at peace with, like, where I was and what I was doing. And when I made Brat, and I spoke about this a lot, I really just thought, like, okay, it was over. I'm going to be dropped, but I'm doing this as like, this is just inherently like what I want to make. It didn't go that way. But like, and I'm very, you know, it's cool that it didn't, I'm very grateful for that. But like, that made me be like, wow, like, I'm so, I'm so fortunate to be able to do this at the scale that I do it. And I realized, I mean, I've known this for a long time, but my whole life and my existence is so tied to the work that I do, possibly in a kind of unhealthy way, like it is my being. It is my everything. And I know some people will find that really pretentious as an annoying, but it's everything to me. I would live and die by the art that I make, and I feel so passionately about that, because I've done things in the past where I haven't felt that way. And I know how shit and rubbish that makes me feel. Right. I've really now, it's like, it is my passion, it is my everything, like without being able to make things like, I don't know who I would be. I would lose like a huge, like, straight into my core. Yeah. It is my identity. Yeah. And it's really serious for me. Of course. It's like, really, really serious. But at the same time, it's where I have my most joyous moments. It's where I have the most fun. It's where I feel most free. And I think I realized all of that off to Brat in a way that I definitely thought of before that I didn't felt as like palpable and insolent palpable. Yeah. And I also, I'm sure that there's some element of like confidence that came out for that. Of course. Of course. Like, you know, like, this is what I can do. Yeah. And at least for my, like, outside perception of music-fashioned film so far, is it, to me, feels this, like, this beautiful, like, reclamation of identity. You know, it's about the art that made the artist. Yeah. Yes. That's a really good way of putting it. You know? And it is. All of the conflict that comes with that, because I would say whilst there are songs on the record that are extremely positive, there are also songs where, you know, it's like being an artist is really volatile, you know, and I think I've been very, very honest about how volatile I am as a person. Yeah. And like. It's what the moment is about. Well, yes. And yeah, so like, I think this album goes into those feelings a lot and how really it's like, kind of, this sounds so cheesy, but for me, it's like all costs. Like, even though it's like, you know, it's selfish, and it can sometimes be really difficult to coexist with someone who thinks that way. Like, that is just what it is for me. Right. And I'll probably like cause people hurt and pain, but also. You're not going to cause people hurt and pain. No, no, no, no, but I mean, in my life, and I'm not talking about, you know, listeners, like, in my life, like, it's hard to be with someone, coexist with someone, like, be a friend of someone who sometimes feels that way, but it is what I feel, and I'm like, working on it, but it's like, it's, I mean, Makayla knows, she's smiling in the background. I know a little bit as well. You know. And yeah, we can go into that if you want. I really don't mind. I would, I, if you want to talk about it, we can. The one day I woke up to 43 DM notifications from Charlie XCX, 43, at like 7 a.m. in the morning, and including, but not limited to screenshots of text conversations going back to 2023, talking about the marketing and creative direction of Brad, which was in some ways. Oh my gosh. Most terrifying experience in my life, but also so fucking cool. I just, I, I had to, I had to lay it out for you. I had to lay it out for you because the evidence was all there, and I was, yeah, I don't know, I, there's been a lot of, like, misinterpretations of, of me, as a person. As it always is, you know, it's like, that's part, that's part of, like, the reality of, like, you know, putting work into the world on, like, a kind of public level. Like, I'm not an idiot. Like, I know, you know? Yeah. But I think because I, I know you, and I know your work, and I know that you are very smart about how you interpret artists and what you do. You are, like, you really, you really get it. You really get it. I try. Yeah. And I was just, like, maybe let me help him along here a little bit because he's got a few things wrong. So that makes you, all the screenshots and I was like, maybe, like, listen up. This is how I went down. You sent me straight. And also, like, that's also, like, meaningful to me, like as, like, a journalist or whatever, like my, I think so much of, like, music discussion has become a re-package of, like, what 90s magazine tabloids used to be. So it is, like, not, like, I appreciated it because I don't want to be wrong. Like, I want to be a source that is, like, credible to people and to artists like you, you know what I mean? 43 messages is at 7 a.m. is a bit crazy, though. At the beginning, I thought it was spam. I was like, there's no way. Yeah, no, I was, I was sending you texts. I was sending you the archives, babe. You got it all. You got it all. I got it all, but it was beautiful. Again, it's, I got a window into you, like, no one else will get. I just, you know, why I get so, um, I, well, I, why I got so mad is I think we do live in this world where people are really, like, not willing to believe that, like, women have brains. Yeah. And can actually, like, do things for themselves, especially when a woman becomes successful. Yeah. And I know that you don't think that, by the way, but I think it's like, I've, I've, I think I've seen it so much. People are so ready to be like, yeah, but like, who actually was behind that thing that, like, XYZ did. Yeah. But, you know, did she really come? And it's like, hey, what if we did? What if it was my idea? What if we fucking did? Yeah. Yeah. How about that? How about that? What if we just woke up? We used our little brains and we were like, yeah, this is the thing I'm going to do. And then we put it into fucking action. How about that? And you did it. Genius idea. And it's not just me. I'm not just talking about me. I'm talking about so many artists, so many female artists who have had, like, careers that are illustrious and long, and they're at the top of their game. And people are still willing to be like, yeah, but did she really write that song? I was like, yes, she fucking did. She fucking wrote the damn song. Yeah. And I just, I think, yeah, it's like, especially when there's a success that people deem as like overnight, which I think some people, because they weren't familiar with me before, Brad, you know, felt that. Yeah. They're really ready to be like, oh, yeah, but like, what were the sort of things that, like, all these other people helped her with? And like, da, da, da, da, da. She doesn't really know about XYZ. Right. She's a pop star. She can't know about like, you know, the history of art or culture in any way, like, which is, but anybody who has that take is so clearly not paying attention. That's also like, you know what I mean? Because it's so evident. If you look this much at any of your work, it's so clear. Sure. And I will say it's like, I really do go through phases with that. Like, sometimes I'm like, really at peace with being misinterpreted. Yeah. Because it is, it comes with the territory, you know? So I'm just like, no, fine. But on my like, lowest days, which I guess was 7 a.m. That morning, I was like, I'm not going to stand for this. So, yeah, but I was also, I also, like, maybe like one hour later, I texted Kaila and I was like, I did something really bad. And I was like, I feel so bad. No, it was so okay. And now we're, we're working it out on the remix. Literally, we're working it out on the, this is the closest I can get to that. So like, that's the beauty of it all. But I want to talk about some interesting takes you've had with this album that have come out so far. Yeah, sure. In the SS 26, you say, I think my politics could work as a press strategy and my heritage could give me quite the USP. Yeah. You've never really talked about your like half Indian side in your music. Yeah. Where does that line up from? Well, it's because nobody asks me. Really? Really? Nobody. Yeah. No one really, like when people ask me, I'm talk about it. But I think like, you know, for me, it's like, I don't know, like, I feel like there is this world where like I could really like, play that up a lot. Yeah. And some artists do. And I just, it's like, doesn't come natural to me. Mm-hmm. Probably because of the way that I, you know, engage with being a mixed person, you know, it's like, it's like, you know, especially when I was younger, like, I didn't really feel like I belonged in either. Yeah. Like you're always not enough to hide that something. Yeah. Of my family. Like, you know, when I was like hanging out, like everybody can't with my, the Indian side of my family, I wouldn't, I would feel kind of like the outside of there. And then when I was like, you know, at school with like a bunch of white girls, I would feel like the outside of there. Yeah. And so it's difficult to place yourself in a way and to kind of understand your identity. And I have a lot of my friends who are mixed, also like feel that same way. Yeah. It's, it's hard to feel like you can like really claim something. But I am really happy to talk about that. But the line in the song, it's sort of about how it's funny. I think everybody thinks that that song is about like the end of the world or something or the state of the world. And it's actually not, like that's not at all what that song is about. It's kind of about persona in a way. It's about how I think now more than ever we, we as in all of us, anyone who is kind of like on the internet, not even necessarily like putting out musical work in any kind of a way. But just if you are on the internet, there is this sort of like level of persona, this level of like feeling like you need to be like on the right side of every single conversation and not get things wrong. And apologise for things how big or small that you've done to ultimately lead you towards some kind of moral sanctuary. Yeah, we'll still actually not ever be enough. Yes, there is this like obsession with like purity and punishment. Yes, exactly. It's like you can't just be good. You have to be the right type of good in the specific way. And if not, you are about person and you actually had a sinister motive this entire time? - Yeah, yeah, and so the song is actually kind of talking about like my experience with that. And talking about like all of the sort of things that I could maybe like utilize to help me be more morally pure, which would be like stop like smoking cigarettes. Do notes have apologies for things that I've done? - Right. - I claim my Indian heritage more, et cetera, et cetera. And like then hopefully like lead myself into like a place that's like where I'm more like appealing. And I think people on the internet, no matter who you are, there is like an element of that, like an element of fear to get it wrong. And also like an element of these things of music, fashion and film, they used to be this sort of place where actually people could escape and have an opinion and feel safe and talk about things in like a non-heated way. And now actually like those places more than ever feel like this place. - Yeah, and very it's yeah, it's like kind of every opinion comes with heat, you know? - Yeah, yeah. - Obviously that is more specific to Twitter than anywhere else. - Twitter has gone through a dark turn, like as of late. - Yeah, so you know, and I think that's actually what the song is about. It's about figuring out like how much you wanna kind of lean into that versus not, you know? - Rather than me being like kind of trying to like fix the world. Like that's not what the song is about. - Right, speaking of things that like come with heat. - Uh oh, don't you act. - Do you actually think the dance floor is dead? - Babe, no, no, I don't, I don't. And again, it's like that lyric from that song is about my relationship with Brat, you know? For me, it's like, you know, I've made like electronic leaning music. - Over, yeah, exactly. - You know, that's shaped who I am, an artist. It's kind of about like my pivot from that, like as an artist who doesn't want to continue to do the same thing over and over and over again. It's more, it's like a personal. - I'm putting away this part of the song. - Yeah, it's like a personal comment on like the fact that I was doing that. I was doing like boiler room in New York, and going to Ibiza, and doing it with the dare, and with George, and with whoever else, and then like doing the kind of shows that were very sort of like party girl, Ray, which is like, and then also like going out all the time. Like I was out all the time. I was partying all the time in not a great way all the time. You know, it's like, it was like, it's me kind of like closing the chapter on that. I mean, look, my husband runs a dance music label. (laughing) And he's DJing every other. - Every, yep. - And I've seen him DJ. - Yeah, and I'm going, and I'm there in the corner like. - Yes, but I want to ask you about the album cover. - Yeah. - 'Cause this is like the coolest fucking album cover I've ever seen. - Thank you. - And one, what do each of these three people mean to you? - Yeah, it's a good question. So obviously, like, John is somebody who I have worked with before in the past, and I've been a huge fan of. Obviously, the album underground. Like, I've been talking a lot about that. I've been a huge fan of his solo work, his work with Brian Eno, his work with John Cage. Like, he was really doing some like super progressive things with the music that he was making back in the '60s. You know, it was like very, he was flipping the form in a way that was really new and unique. And he means a lot to me, personally, as a musician who's done that. - Right. - And obviously, to get to work with him was just like such a huge thing. Now knowing him, I'm like, wow, like John is, he's so prolific. He's working all the time. He's always making something, he's always doing a show, he's always, he's impossible to pin down. Because he's like, sorry, I'm like, in the studio with Dada Dada, I'm like, oh my god, wow, he's. - So are you. The way you feel about him. - Yeah, but I'm not 83, babe. Do you know what I mean? Like this isn't it? - And you think that at 83 you won't be like that? - I don't know. - I mean, we'll see. Maybe we'll be doing this. - It's right from the retirement home. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So John, for me, is he's a big part of like, I don't know, he kind of mirrors how I feel about music and the way that he engages with music. Like, I feel in ways like, there's similarities there. - Right. - With Mark. I think Mark has always been somebody who speaks to youth culture. He understands how to communicate fashion in a very kind of rebellious way. Like when he did his Grunge collection in, he was like, 92. For this designer, Perry Ellis, like, he made this Grunge collection that was like, at the time like, really, really controversial. - Yeah. - And he got fired because of it. Because it was sort of like, completely not what the brand wanted. But he did it because that was his thing. And he lost his job and then went on to kind of do his own line. And that defiance and like, you know, desire and need to stick to one's own vision is something that really speaks to me. And also, I think, you know, like, what he did with heaven is really cool. It's like opening. - You did a heavy campaign, also. - I did, baby. He gave me my first fashion campaign. - Really? - I've done three, four, three or four campaigns for him. Three campaigns for him now. Like, he opened me up to that world for the first time when that world had not really been open to me before. - Right. And, I mean, Marty is like, we've, I've been lucky enough to have like a few conversations with him where we were just talking about film and, you know, his work and how he approaches his work. And honestly, like his knowledge of film is just encyclopedic, like it's crazy. And that is something that's really, really inspiring to me. And his kind of mission in like, restoration and like, restoring these films and it's just very inspiring. And, I mean, he's also fucking Martin Scorsese. It's like, come on, come on. - Yeah, yeah. - The girl. - And I mean, it's like, I think for me, it's like, I'm not proclaiming, right? And he means that these people are the Trinity. - Right, they're yours. - They're mine. - Yeah, I agree. - And it really else has their own. And you know what? There are a million different versions of this album cover. For me, as well. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - But yeah, there's only, there was only three spots. - So, you know, it's so cool. - There was so many. - So like, no one else but you could get those three people in a room to take a picture. - I was sort of like, I was shocked that even I managed to do that. And it went down to the fucking wire. - Oh, I bet. - Let me tell you, we were like, is it gonna happen? And also we had to have it happen because, you know, we had to like press the vinyl. It was like, we went down to the wire. It was like really scary. But when they all arrived in that room together, it was truly overwhelmingly emotional. It was really like, and you know, Aiden was shooting it. And he's like my best friend. - Yeah. - He's obviously this kind of like, I mean, to me, he's not like up and coming anymore to me. He's this like superstar photographer during the tour. But, you know, when you're in a room with those guys, it's like, they've worked with every one. - With every one, with every one, you know? And so, like, to see him shooting them was really emotional and meaningful. And they were like, impressed with us. And we were like, it was really cool. It was really like, just special. And a moment, I will probably never have again. And yeah, I don't know, it was really, it was a beautiful moment. - Yeah. - And very reflective, actually, of like, what the album is kind of about as a whole. - Totally. - Yeah, again, it's the art that made the artist. To me, that's always like, if I had to boil it down into a sentence, how would you sell it? - You know, I'm gonna steal that. - Oh, please do. Please do. You know what I'm saying? Hit me out anytime you need over. - You need some good things for breast. I would love to know, like, how do you love acting? Like, how was that experience? - I do, I do really love, I really love the moments that I've gotten to act. I love it. And, you know, I think it's like, obviously, there is something like inherently cringe about like being a musician who's like, I want to act. - There's nothing like that. - There's so many people who have done it. - Of course, of course, of course. But there is like a bit of a tension there that people don't, people don't want to let that happen for you. And that's fine. That's like, they could like, go off and do that. And like, I know what I'm, I know like what it comes with. But like, yeah, I really love it. I really, really enjoy it. And I feel really lucky that I've gotten to, you know, do like a variety of different projects. with a variety of different directors who all work in very different ways. And, you know, I definitely, my approach has been, like, wanting to do really, like, small roles. - Yeah. - Like. - Diva dream role? Oh, my gosh. I think a dream role would probably be when I wrote for myself. - Cool. - I think. - What type of character is she? Well, I think she'd probably be, like, a difficult woman, really, wouldn't she? That's sort of written in the stars. But, yeah, I just. I really, to be honest, like, I'm really enjoying being on set - because I really am enjoying learning. - Yes. - If I'm enjoying learning from, like, other people who are far more experienced than me, whether that be cinematographers or directors or actors themselves. Like, I'm really. I'm watching. I'm watching, and I'm learning, and I'm thinking about, you know, how I can sort of use that. - Right. - And. - You get the feeling of, like, enjoying the process of creation without the pressure of, like, comparing yourself to all your past work and all the things that you've done. - Yeah, yeah. - You know what I mean? - You get to enjoy being in office. - Yeah, and also, it's, like, I don't particularly. I'm not, like, I don't know, and I feel this way a little bit with music now too, especially after Brad. I'm, like, I don't have this, like, it must be a success. Like, I'm just, like, let me just, like, do the thing that feels inspiring to me because I love it, even if I fall flat on my face. Like, that's. It's not about, like, winning or, like, I don't know, whatever. It's, like, it's kind of never really been about that for me. It's about. It's about. It's about taking part the counts. I don't know, it's about. - It's about what you have to say. I work in my soul, and I want to follow these, like, threads that make me feel alive. And to be honest, like, there's a song on the record that I know you've heard, which is kind of about that. - Yeah. - And it's about this. I think that that's my favorite of the single so far. I love it. - Okay, cool. It's called. - For those who don't know, which is everyone, because it's not out yet. But, yeah, it's about. Yeah, that feeling of just, like, it's just. This is just something that I'm drawn to exploring. - Yeah. - It's a creative field that I'm drawn to exploring. And I just. I'm gonna do it no matter what anyone else's fucking things. And you know what's interesting? Like, I did this thing where I was asking. I was answering questions for fans about, like, work and process and things like that. And I would say, like, the number one question that was asked was about how you have the confidence to go into a creative field or to put yourself out there creatively, because generally speaking, people were very worried about, like, failing or being embarrassed or getting it wrong. And that was. I think that was, like, the main topic of conversation. Like, across the board, people were like, "I really want to do this, but I'm scared to, in case I suck." - What was your answer to that? - It's like, "Just go ahead and suck." Fuck cares. It's your life. It's your life. You get to live it in whatever way you want to live it. If you have this desire to go and do this thing, then do it. It doesn't have to be that, you know, your entire life is going to become about that thing. You might actually, like, try and do something creative. Maybe you really don't enjoy it or maybe you love it and you discover something else about yourself. - Yeah. - As if other people like it or don't like it. - I also believe that failure is a part of progress. - Oh, my God. - Like, people, people of you, like, you do something and it's, like, fail or succeed. And it's, like, no, you fail until you succeed. Yeah, and you. Every failure. It's not even a real thing. It's, like, you learn so much about yourself as an artist or a person when things like that happen. It's, like, I don't know. I think we live in this really high-pressure world where everybody's like, "Oh, you did this wrong." They're like, "Shut up." "Shut the fuck up." - Right. - Like, that people just live. - And try. - And try. - Like, what's wrong with, like, why are we so, like, judging people for trying new things? - Oh, God, it's so boring. - To me, it's so boring. It's just, like. - It's really an insecurity, I truly believe. - Apple, of course, is. And it's like. - Like, how dare you try it to better yourself? - Yeah. - Weird. - Get out of here. - It's embarrassing. Can you fuck off? It's so annoying, like, please fuck off. Like, why don't you go out and just, like, do something that makes you feel alive? Instead of, like, shitting on everybody else who's, like, just following their gut instinct, you know? And so, anyway, it's, like, I felt really. I was, it made me actually really sad when I saw so many people who were really eager to explore something, but we're just so scared of what people would think of them. And that's, like, such a, that's, like, the world we live in. And it sucks. It fucking sucks, because I, I don't know, it's, like, people are really afraid to be. Yeah, I thought of as doing something wrong, or seen trying, or. - Yeah, I don't know. I have many weird theories about this. Like, I think so much of what has to do with, like, the phone and the internet. - Yeah. - And this idea of, like, I don't even think it's so weird that, like, you know, if I was trying to cook something and I looked up a recipe, I would only see it in its most perfect form from a professional chef. Like, you're never going to see, like, the thousands of attempts that they took to, like, get it. Like, you, we live in this world where, like, you only see the finished product. - Yes. - And you are comparing your first attempt to the finished product all the time. - Yeah. - And it's just not how, like, creation works in any way. - Yeah, not at all. And that's why I've been really interested in talking about process with this album. - Yeah. - And that's why I've been, like, interested in, for example, like, the B-sides thing that I've been doing, like, you know, the songs that I'm putting on there are not songs that are on the album. - Yeah, you have to, you see, really drop, like, two music videos on B-sides. - I did, yes. And I wanted to do that because it's, like, those songs are, like, adjacent to the world and a part of the process, but they're not going to be on the album, but they're still part of the journey to get to the record. And there are so many songs like that when you're writing an album, generally speaking, you know, it's, like, you try, you, like, make starts, you try, you fail, you, are, like, oh my god, that's the worst time I've ever written. And you know, and you know, it's, like, it all sort of, like, helps build out the thing that you are finally getting to. And those songs are really important, but sometimes don't get a life of their own. - Right. - And so that's why I wanted to put, like, a couple. - That's cool. And I think it's, like, reflective of, like, again, like, what you said that these without them is, like, this was part of the process. They're not part of the album, but they were a part of the story - Yeah. - to get to what the album was. - Exactly. - Tell me about Wink Wink. - Wink Wink is, um, Wink Wink's funny. Wink Wink, I suppose, in a way, is another song about persona, um, in that, you know, it's kind of, like, about, um, playing into the, the kind of, these things that people sort of think that you are, and then kind of being like, but I'm not that anymore. And then it's like, well, wait, are you? It's like, you know, it's like, I think there are, there are, as I was saying earlier, there are these boxes that people want to put you in. And this is me sort of, like, dancing around - Right. - in that box. - And, and satirizing the box itself. - I suppose, you know what I mean? - Yeah. It was one of the really early songs, um, that we made for the album actually. It was, I think, kind of, maybe the first. - Really? - Yeah, maybe it was the first. It was one of the ones that we didn't start in Paris. We started it in London. And then we finished it in Paris. Um, but yeah, it's, I don't know. I, I think for me, it's very, uh, it's very, like, visually rich and silly and cute. And it reminds me of, like, a teen movie in a way. - I totally agree. And that's what I love about it. It's like, like, freaky Friday transition, while she's, like, getting dressed. But in a way, that's so fun. Like, and I love, I love music that, like, can, like, transport you to a time and feeling in your life. - Yeah. - And that, I also think - - that's that really well. - Oh. - Like, it has, it transports me to, have you seen perks of being a wallflower? - You know, I haven't, the, the black green film. - We have home work. - I haven't, I haven't, it's, we have home work. - We have hardly on Netflix. And I keep the coming from Miss Letterbox herself. - And I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it. - So, so I need a TikTok video soon of your review of perks of being a wallflower. If you have home work. - When this comes, it's Emma Watson, right? - Yeah. - Okay, she's seen where she is, they're driving through this tunnel and she gets out the roof of the car. - Okay. - And she just, like, eels the wind. - She feels herself. - Okay. - She's just so free. And like, it's, it's like this beautiful moment of youth, you know what I mean? - Yeah. - And it's such, like, it's like one of those, you know, there's just random scenes from movies to, like, stick in your hat. - Mostly. Okay, I promise you I will watch it. It's been there. - I think you're going to love it. - It's been there on my list for a really long time. I just haven't gotten to it. This, you know, there's a lot of movies on the list. - And there's a lot of movies on the list. You're watching them. - Yeah, I mean, I'll never watch them all. It's the truth. - Yeah. You know, how can we? - How can anyone? One last question. I didn't get to ask you earlier, but it's like something I would really love to pick your brain about. - Sure. - Do you think marketing is an art form? - Yeah. - I think it is, too. - Yes. Well, interesting. Yes, yes and no. - Okay. What's the yes? What's the no? - No, you know what? Yes, I do. I do. I think obviously it has to come along with art. - Right. - You know. - Right, right, right. And I think, yeah, there are so many stories to be told through marketing. And I actually, the thing that I'm really interested in is, I think we're actually sort of heading into this world of like anti-marketing now, which I'm really looking forward to. I think we've been so saturated with these really like bombastic, like over the top campaigns, like in-person events, like, you know, it's really been about like engagement and kind of views. Like, like, big and scale and public events, like pop-ups and da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da, and like really kind of making music, sorry, music, feel like three-dimensional, in every single outlet that you can possibly have, which I think is cool. Yeah. But I also think it's done. Like, I think it's. The pendulum swinging back. Yeah, I think it's early still, but I think it's, I think it's going that way. I mean, I think, you know, the fact that, like, Phoebe Brodiez did no phones, that's like a really big, like, signifier of that. Yeah. I think it's going back to a more personal experience with the art and the artist. Totally. I think it's, like I said, I think it's still really early, but I think it's going to come, and it's probably going to come like mid next year in a more, like, real way. Man-tree way, yeah. But I think it's coming. I think, like, record labels go kind of got a little bit too excited about, like, the idea of, like, a public fan event. Yeah. And so I think it's, like, those things now, whilst they're still really fun, I think they feel very familiar to an audience, even if they're not quite registering that yet. It's, like, it feels like a familiar thing that we know. It's, like, we understand that language now in a way that feels less shocking and exciting. Yeah. Every time there's diminished returns. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so I think, you know, when Phoebe is like, I'm doing, I'm playing MSG and there's no phones. That's shocking now, rather than whatever the opposite version of it, rather than, like, the brand wall. That's a good thing. And I think also people really resonate with this almost, like, fly on the wall experience. Like, I loved what you did with, like, the BTS of the music videos for this album, with the O-Bake. Like, they're so good. And even just, like, tick, like, I've seen videos of just, like, like, you're just, like, throwing the TV out the window from the music video. And it's, like, it feels like you're there. Yeah. And it's, like, and it's done. And I'm like, what, what else? Like, what is it? You know, like, I think, like, people try. So the people think great marketing is about conversions. And I think it's more so about, like, curiosity. Like, can you make the viewer, can you manipulate the demand and feeling? You're so right. It's about curiosity and it's about desire. Yeah. I think it's the main thing. And I think, with all the things that I was just talking about, I feel to me, it feels very sort of, like, 2024 marketing stuff. Yeah. It's like that in a way has lost an element of its, like, edge and desire, because it's just becoming familiar, because it, it worked. And so, yeah, people want to stop you. Demi and Trouble. Don't you have me running on subs? I knew you. Jesus Christ. Scary. Uh, yeah, yes. I can't spell. Well, um, Charlie. Yeah. Sorry. It was the greatest honor and privilege. Hey, I, I would go with you for hours. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It seems that you have places to be. Yeah. I just want to say, like, thank you for doing this. Oh, my God. Thank you for having me. Like, you, there are so many art, like, you've talked about, you know, believing in the niche and fandom and so many artists love to say, that's it. And never do it. And, um, like, I'm going to show my kids this. Like, like, it's like, that's how meaningful it is to me. And, um, I'm so fucking excited for the album. I'm excited to see you on tour. And I sincerely hope this is not the last time you and I cross paths. It won't be. I feel it in my bones. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you.