The Murder Case That Put the Devil on Trial

Hi everyone, before today's episode, we want to tell you about What the Fact. It's a new show from Conor Tomlinson, who you know from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum, and Carter Roy from Murder, True Crime Stories. Every week they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Conor's infectious energy will make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on Earth. Follow What the Fact, wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact is. This is Crime House. Sabrina, yes, we are kicking off a brand new season, which means it's time to start a new game. I can't believe we're already into season two, and this season is very, very close to home for us Ghost Girls. When my socks are in the spirit, they got pumpkins on them, because this season, for the next eight episodes, we will be exploring the intersection of true crime and the paranormal. Ah, I love this. So before we get into the episode, we're going to play a game of Would You Rather. We're going to pick two shocking moments from each story and see which one we think is the lesser of two evils. Okay, today we are covering the story of Arnie Cheyenne Johnson, the man behind the so-called devil made me do it, child. So Sabrina, here are your choices. Give them to me. Would you rather be possessed by 42 demons, or watch your 12-year-old brother's eyes turn to completely black, as multiple voices speak through him? Both are pretty traumatizing. I'd argue you did experience almost a version of one of these already. Well, it's just so funny, because I was going to choose the opposite. I was going to choose I'd rather be possessed, because the trauma of seeing someone you love being possessed. I'm so scary, and I could use a break sometimes, but you're right, I kind of did experience the other. Sabrina's sister was maybe nearly possessed, or at one time possessed, and also my dad might be possessed. There's a lot to talk about with the paranormal, but yeah, there's no good choice here, right? No, not at all. And both of these things are something that Arnie Cheyenne Johnson had to face himself, because after his girlfriend's little brother became possessed by a demon, or potentially 42 demons, Arnie asked them to take him instead. And if he's to be believed, these dark entities drove him to take a man's life. Welcome to Crimes of the Paranormal, a crime house original powered by Pave Studios. We are your hosts, Sabrina Deanna Roga and Corinne Vienn. Every Tuesday, we're exploring a different corner of the true crime universe, examining cases that left a permanent impact on society. This season, we are diving into cases where the evidence doesn't end at blood stains in fingerprints, but drifts into the unexplainable, into the unknown. If you're loving Crimes of, please follow, rate, and review us wherever you listen. It helps us build this community, and we also just love hearing from you. You can also catch us on YouTube where we include visuals that bring every case to life. Subscribe to Crimes House Plus on Apple podcasts for ad-free early access. And if you can't get enough true crime, go search and follow Crimes House Daily, our team's twice a day show bringing you breaking cases, updates, and unbelievable stories from the world of crime that are happening right now. Today, we're talking about 19-year-old Arnie Cheyenne Johnson and his 1981 murder trial in Brookfield, Connecticut. In a violent fit of anger, he stabbed his landlord to death. But in court, Arnie stunned the world with his defense. He claimed he was innocent, because a demon made him do it. A warning before we begin. This episode contains descriptions of murder, violence, and the endangerment of a minor. On February 16, 1981, Arnie Cheyenne Johnson killed his landlord and friend, Alan Bono, by stabbing him to death. As always, it is important for us to pause here and recognize the senseless tragedy of this event. Forty-year-old Alan Bono had a full life to live, and it was cut short in a cold-blooded act of violence by someone he thought he could trust. The severity of Arnie's crimes were shocking enough, but what really brought this case to the public's attention was the defense that his legal team chose. Arnie and his lawyers declared that his murderous act wasn't the decision of a heartless murderer, but the result of demonic possession. Quite literally, Arnie Cheyenne Johnson claimed, quote, "the devil made me do it." And this isn't just an outlandish attempt to win a murder trial, there's a whole lot of evidence and a ton of witnesses to back it up. And if you know anything about it, we wholeheartedly believe in the paranormal, we have experienced the paranormal. It's kind of all consuming in our lives, and I'll say up front, I do think the devil made him do it. I have a loss. Is that a proper English sentence? Yeah, I'm not sure, but were you just possessed? No, I might have done. I will say, I used to always be the biggest advocate that yes, 100% the devil made him do it in this case. But I started questioning, and we could talk about it a little bit more, because we learned a lot more while preparing for this episode, that I don't think I knew previously, that makes me question what was really going on. Oh, interesting. I already want to go back and forth, but we have to make it like you guys in on the story now, too. Yes. So whether or not you believe in the paranormal, the case of Arnie Cheyenne Johnson is terrifying, either a demon really did force this young man to murder his own friend, or it was nothing more than a delusion, and like we've already made very clear, or pro paranormal, we believe, but one thing was for sure. Arnie Cheyenne Johnson was a killer. It's late on the night of February 16, 1981, a 19 year old boy stumbles down a quiet road in Brookfield, Connecticut. He looks dazed, lost in some fog, no one else can see. All of the sudden, headlights wash over him as an ambulance passes by. The driver does a double take when he sees this young man. He knows who he is. That is Arnie Cheyenne Johnson, and he's suspected of stabbing the man this driver just took to the hospital. The driver radios the police, and they descend on the scene. Arnie lets them take him to the station without a fight. When Detective Glen Cooper books him, he feels like something about Arnie seems off. If Cooper sizes up this young man from behind the mugshot camera, and Arnie looks messy, confused, his blonde hairs, and a tangled nest on top of his head, and sure he looks like maybe he'd out of rough night, but Detective Cooper wonders to himself. Could this kid really be a murderer? As Cooper sets up the mugshot camera, he sees that Arnie's energy is fading. Eventually, Arnie can't even stand up on his own, and he has to sit down on a bench to just catch his breath. He sits there for a while, silent, and visibly weakened, and something in him seems to have shifted. Staring at him with an innocent perplexed expression, he asks Cooper, quote, "Why am I here? What's going on?" The detective is completely confounded by this question, but still, in an even voice, he responds, "Well, you just killed your friend." And, this is true, 19-year-old Arnie Cheyenne Johnson claimed that he has no memory, doesn't remember stabbing his landlord to death, but the evidence is undeniable. Arnie's pocket knife was found at the scene, they were also witnesses, and police determined that this pocket knife was the murder weapon that killed Alan Bono. And at first, it really did seem like a standard homicide, a fit of rage gone wrong, a crime of passion, and that Arnie was simply in shock, unable to process the horrible act of violence that he had committed. Arnie's girlfriend, Debbie Glatzel, told the police that on the night of the murder, Alan Bono had become drunk and bledrant, and that Arnie had been upset with Alan. So, on its face, it seemed like a pretty open-and-check case. That is, until Arnie's lawyer announced that his client would not be pleading guilty, due to demonic possession, which, naturally, as you would expect, that created quite the media frenzy, possession, murder by demonic possession. The devil made me do it, I mean, that was unheard of. Yeah, but just because it's unheard of, it doesn't make it impossible. Right. Does it? So, as a duo, we have spent eight years researching paranormal cases. Our whole lives have been about the paranormal. We grew up in haunted homes, so we don't think it's impossible. And this is one of those cases that we will quite literally never forget. We actually covered it, believe it or not, in one of our most haunted episodes. If not the most haunted episode of Two Girls My Ghost, episode 12, Dominus. Way back when. First year of podcasting. When I listened to that episode, I literally wanted a hug, old baby me, and be like, "It's okay. I sound so insecure." Like, I don't know how to speak, even though I did the research. But. We gave way more detail here, just so we're really dissecting this case. Yes. So, to understand. how things got here and why Arnie claimed that he had been possessed. We had to go back to where the possessions began because it didn't start with Arnie. It began with a little boy named David Blatzel. On July 2nd, 1980, 19-year-old Arnie Cheyenne Johnson and his girlfriend, whose 26-years-old Debbie Glatzel had just rented a house together in Newtown, Connecticut. And up until this point, the couple had lived a very happy, uneventful life. Arnie worked as a landscaper, Debbie with a dog groomer. And prior to getting this house together, they had lived for some time with Debbie's family. But now they're like so excited to finally have a place with their own. It was a dream home. It's this beautiful single story with green shutters. Plus, it's still close to Debbie's family who lives just one town over in Brookfield. So they're like, we can visit all the time. Right. Here they are. New beginnings. What could possibly go wrong? What could go wrong? What a sentence to say to the universe and tempt the demons that are always listening. Always. Always. So Debbie's family, they came by to celebrate the move, help them clean up the house. And this included Debbie's mom and her three younger brothers, Alan Carl and David. 12-year-old David was asked to sweep up the primary bedroom, all by himself, which wasn't weird, but it's not weird. Yeah, it's not weird. It became weird, but it's not weird. He's alone. And meanwhile, Debbie rolled up her sleeve. She's taking care of other cleaning that needed to be done. And for a while, everyone's just going about their business. The house is calm, but then everything changed. So little David, 12-year-old David is upstairs, sweeping the primary bedroom all alone. When all of a sudden, he starts to feel like something is in the room with him. It's not feeling when we talk about this a lot, but you know, you get that feeling when someone's looking at you, you can just feel it. Even when your eyes are closed, you can just like know there's someone else. And also, he's in a house with a lot of his family members. So like at first, he's probably thinking one of his brothers. Some ones up here. So he turns around and looks no one's there. He tries to shake this feeling off. He keeps sweeping, but that sense just keeps growing stronger and stronger. It's like alarm bells were ringing in his ears. That someone or something was looking at him and approaching him. And all of a sudden, he feels it. Hands shove him with such intense force that he is thrown onto the bed. He lays there in shock, but he's like, of course, it has to be one of my siblings, right? But he would have had to be able to see them run away. Right. It's not like he was at the edge of the doorway and he got shoved and even then he'd hear someone run away. Yes. And he looked around certain. He would catch whoever did this. And that is when he saw him. There, staring right at him was a man. His eyes were pure black, like two opaque stones. And he was staring right at David. The stranger silently watched this young boy for a few moments. And then it spoke one single word. So you bet your butt, David jumped off that bed and he starts running. He doesn't stop running until he is outside of that house. And obviously, noticing the commotion, both Debbie and her mother, Judy, followed David outside. And they find him sitting under a tree visibly upset. And they're like, what's wrong? But David is so startled and so in shock of what he does experience that he won't say anything. He just kept repeating that he wanted to go home now. Both Debbie and Judy were confused, but there was no reasoning with him. So Judy rounded up the rest of her sons, got them in the car and they all drove back to the Glatzel's house in Brookfield, Connecticut. Yeah. And for hours, David would not talk about happened to him up in the bedroom. But later that night, Arnie and Debbie drove to the Glatzel's house to have dinner with the family. And this is when they also down for dinner. And David just noticeably shaken. Yeah. He's being weird and he's not talking. And his moodiness is being felt by everyone around him and his brother is finally fed up with him. Shout, what is wrong with you? And that is when he told his family about the man and the ominous warning to be where. We'll talk about this a little bit more later. But a lot of the family thought that David is just being dramatic. And David's brother Carl and their father Carl Sr. specifically. These are the two who like, even to this day, don't really believe. I know I should know all of this. They still don't believe it. Yeah. But out of curiosity and sympathy, the family does start asking David more questions. And specifically, his mother, Judy is really trying to like take care of her son, right? So she's asking David what this entity was warning him about. And like, what did be where mean? Does David know? And without hesitation, David looks up and said, quote, he wants my soul, which is so sad. And 12 years old. Right. Like sure, kids have great imaginations, but this is really, really jar. It's scary and ominous. Right. But you can also understand my everyone's a little bit skeptical, because like, this seems like it kind of came out of love fields, right? A little bit. Which to some people, you might be like, oh, well, that's reason to believe this child. Yeah. But for others, it's like, okay, what's with the theatrics? I don't know imagine this is like, I mean, it is a larger family. And I'm just picturing, they tease each other all the time. Right. And like even me, I was such a sensitive kid. And when I was growing up, I would say, you know, I would share my plates with my family around the dinner table. And I would get made fun of or it got to the point where like, I would run from the table crying that my dad called me LMA because I would say leave me alone so much. Like, so I doesn't imagine there's a level of that with this guy where they're like, oh my god, David's talking dramatic. Right. Hopefully hit the older sister protected him a little bit. I don't know. But even Arnie made a joke asking David if he'd gotten into the medicine cabinet and had taken something. Yeah. But David said no. And sorry. I just like, my mind just went to like them be like, David, are you on drugs? And it's like the only drug in the medicine cabinet was like the Flint Stone vitamins. That was just my mind. Well, there is actually a whole theory that we'll talk about in a little bit about Benadryl. Oh, I thought I was like about the Flint Stone vitamins. Vitamin, you can four year old. They call it possessions. Yeah. Fact, tech, not, not, not, not fact. Okay. But David's like, no, I'm not on drugs. And so the family wasn't really ready yet to believe that there was an apparition that their child Sasha brother saw this man standing there. But something really did spook him. And he's 12. So it's not like he's like three years old, right? Like he's a form-to-human being. And he's sticking to it. It's not like this thing happened. And he shrugged it off. And he's totally fine. Like he's continuing to be really scared by this experience. Still, they're kind of leaning towards the direction of like, okay, David's imagination got the best of him. He was upstairs in this new house. And he's spooked by it. Right. But David was still so shaken up by this to the point that Debbie and Arnie were actually concerned. And they decided to cancel their lease. That proves to me that they really, truly did believe that there was something. And maybe they had some weird feelings in the house already. Yeah. So they canceled their lease and decided to stay at the family home until David was feeling better. The family went to bed that night thinking that all of this would be overcome morning. But as David lay in his bed that night, that sinking feeling of someone watching him returned. And this time it felt heavier, more loaded, like someone or something was coming. Poor David hardly slept that night. Happy Halloween, Crime House listeners. I'm Vanessa Richardson. Did you know horror films like Abigail and Sinister were based on true stories? Join me every Sunday this month on Crime House 24/7 for Crime House of Horrors. Where I dive into four stories behind some of our favorite scary movies from Abigail, the autopsy of Jane Doe, Sinister and the taking of Deborah Logan. You'll find one thing in common. The truth is scarier than fiction. Listen every Sunday on Crime House 24/7 or join Crime House Plus for all four right now, add free. Subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify or at CrimeHousePlus.com. And the following day the Glattel's still weren't sure what to make of David's story, but he's adamant that whatever he saw at that rental home had followed him home and wanted him. And he really wanted his mom to help him. So Judy being a good mother, the family's Catholic, she was like it doesn't hurt to have the house blessed just in case. And if it's going to help David just feel more at peace, why not? So they have a priest come over who walks through the house, walks through every room, sprinkles, holy water. And so even if David's visions were just in his imagination, the Glattel's figured this would bring him peace, but they were very, very, very, very wrong. Because sometime around three in the morning the screaming started. Judy Glattel springs awake, her blood running cold at the sand of her son's cries. She rushes out of bed, she runs down to David's room and there is her youngest son sitting upright in bed screaming into the dark. By this point David has woken up everyone in the house and now they're all gathered in his room. But before Judy can try to call him, she now hears a new sound in the room, the nigh rumbling growl of some terrible beast. Judy can't find the source of this noise, and it feels like it's coming from everywhere, like an enormous creature is just trying to devour the entire house. She looks around and mounting horror as the pictures start to shake against the walls. The sound goes louder and louder, sending objects teetering across David's dresser. Judy flinches as she hears the sound of glasses break in the kitchen, and David's screams start morphing into sentences now. He looks desperately around to his family, shouting, "He's here! He's here! He's coming to punish me!" Judy pulls David out of bed, and with the rest of the family in tow, they rush out of the room. It's like an earthquake. It's ripping the house apart, and David keeps screaming, "It's evil! It's evil!" And the family is now in full panic. There's nowhere to go. There's nowhere to hide. And then all of a sudden, the rumbling stops. I read something that for some of my family members literally felt like a massive semi-truck had driven into the house or something. That's how much force and shaking it. They were like, "We can picture it! I can feel the rumbling!" Yeah. And the sudden silence was deafening. So it went from complete chaos to just like a silence that made you feel unsettled. There, the glotsal family is standing together, too terrified to move. And as they look at each other, they can feel that something definitely did just shift in the house. And if they had any doubt about David's visions before, this changed everything. For almost everyone. There was no denying that there was an evil entity in this house. And to get rid of it, the glotsals needed some serious help. And in the 1980s, two names were synonymous with paranormal investigation. Ed and Lorraine Warren. Yes. Nowadays, this couple is very well known. Thanks to the horrifying movie series, the conjuring films and the Warrens are the main characters in that series. And actually, the conjuring house is the very first house Sabrina and I did an overnight paranormal investigation. And it was pretty bad. No possessions to report. But there is a lot of controversy surrounding Ed and Lorraine Warren. We're not going to get into too much because I feel like that could be a whole episode in itself. But ultimately, I believe they did really want to help people who were dealing with and battling with spirits and spiritual attacks. They wanted to help get rid of unwanted possessions and hauntings. But then the way they went about it is perhaps questionable in some cases. Right. But back in the 80s, they were real life celebrities in the paranormal world. Yeah. They participated in hundreds of exorcisms. They had over 3,000 supernatural cases under their belts and they were frequent guests on talk shows and they even had a phone line open for people to call and ask for their help. Which is another thing that comes up with controversy between them. It's like, oh, they did all this for fame. But also, if you are in the spiritual world, like we have a podcast about the paranormal, like, are we doing it for fame? Right. We're doing it because we like it to talk about. Yeah. And also, the Warrens had a whole team too. So it's not necessarily Ed and Lorraine showing up to every case. It could be someone else on their team as well. They had priests going places. Yeah. Right. Yeah. At the time that this potentially demonic possession and Poltergeist case starts to take shape, the Warrens had just done a ton of work on the Amityville Horror House and that garnered a lot more publicity for them. They also live pretty close to where the Glatso family is. So this is why after everything that the family is experiencing with young David, Debbie Glatso thought, let's call in the Warrens for assistance. She was hoping that they could help remove the spirit that was terrorizing her 12 year old brother David. And by this point, it was more than just seeing a demon-like figure in the shadows. David was being tormented daily. He was developing mysterious cuts, bruises and scratches overnight. He was being choked and beaten by unseen forces. And more than anything, poor David is terrified. Like we said, if it was a hoax or it just him being dramatic in the very beginning or coming up with something to like get attention from his family, he wouldn't have carried it on and it wouldn't have escalated to this point where he's being physically attacked. Right. And but so wild about this too because I guess we're coming into this having eight years of paranormal research under our belts. And so it is so fascinating to me that this went from like zero to 100 normally in some sort of like Poltergeist demonic possession case or like a hopeful possession case from the demons point of you. We're talking from demons POV now. They're hoping normally there's a slower burn. And they feed on the fear, they eat away, they isolate one single member. But this was like zero to 100 from the beginning. It was like this thing, whether it was that person that said beware or not in that one instance of entering this home that they're no longer in. Right. That thing immediately attached to David followed him and just like full force is attacking this poor child. Well, as we'll learn it might not be just one entity. But so fortunately the Warrens do agree to take on the case. And on July 14th 1980 Ed and Lorraine Warren arrive at the Glotsville family home in Brookfield, Connecticut. And they did bring a doctor along with them because they wanted to be certain to rule out any medical ailments or causes behind all of this before they were like yes, absolutely this is a possession. Right. And that's something like the church and the diocese would do often too. They usually try to rule out every single possibility, including mental illnesses. Right. Before declaring this paranormal, which is something we are not guilty of, we normally just declare ghosts ghosts. Well, I think specifically when it comes to listeners who email us stories, because like who are we to say that their experience is not real? No, why would they be listening? Yeah, emailing us if they were. But so they have a doctor there. The doctor takes David's vitals. He performs some psychological tests and everything seems completely normal. And as things evolve, the Warrens really feel like something paranormal might be going on here. Lorraine Warren was a as she claimed a clairvoyant who hoped to commune with whatever entity was causing these problems with David. So the Warrens sat down with David at a kitchen table with the rest of the family joining in for emotional support. And once everyone was settled, the Warrens turned on a tape recorder and began the session. David sits stiffly in his chair, hands clasped in his lap, his knuckles white. The boy looks pale, eyes ringed in dark circles as though he hasn't slept in a week. Across from him, Ed and Lorraine Warren keep their voices low and careful. They begin with some simple questions. Is the man with you right now? Lorraine Warren wants to speak with the spirit. But to do that, she and Ed need to coax it out. Ed, a self-proclaimed demonologist, takes the lead. His voice study deliberate. He begins simply. This bad man, the one who has been doing all the terrible things, did he speak to you today? The boy says yes. The spirit had told him that he wanted David's soul, and David is scared that he's going to get it. Ed's tone sharpens as he asks, "Is it here with us? In the room?" David's eyes shift, looking not at Ed, but passed him into the living room beyond. Silently, he nods his head. Ed doesn't follow David's gaze. Instead, he addresses the spirit. If you're here, he challenges. Give us proof. Knock three times. For a moment, nothing happens. No sound beyond the quiet whore of the tape recorder. And then, bang, bang, bang! The knocks echo through the room like gunfire rattling the table beneath their hands. Then the lights start to flicker. The glasses in the cabinet start to clink against each other. The floor seems to shutter. And soon, it's as if the entire kitchen is shaking, as though the walls are grinding up against some unseen force. The glatso family looks around and growing terror. Whoever, whatever this spirit is, it's here. And it's angry. Oh, I just got chills thinking about that moment of everyone sitting in silence waiting for the bangs. And they come so violently. Right. The whole house becomes alive. It really is as if the house is going to swallow them whole. Well, then, after this, again, chaotic moment, the whole house falls silent again, motionless, just like a few nights earlier. So the families there sitting, trying to catch their breath, and Lorraine Warren stands up. She walks around the room. She looks at David, and then she whispers to Mrs. and Mr. Glatzel. She told them that she could see a black cloud surrounding David's body. But then she goes on to say, "This is not a ghost. It's a demon." And after everything they had seen, the Warrens warned the glatzels that this was a very, very serious case. And the Warrens had an ideology about how possessions occurred. They believed that there were five steps. So the invitation is number one, number two, infestation, number three, oppression, number four, possession, and then the final phase is death. So basically they go into possession cases with the presumption that all of them will end in death. If not intervened? Yes. Yes. So Ed could tell that the demon had already been invited in. And it was now infesting the Glatzel's house, which is phase two. And the entity had its eyes set on David, which was the the beginning of the third stage oppression. So it is isolating and attacking one specific person, and in this case, David. - What's unique about this though is normally, it's done so privately and then it escalates to the point where there are other observers, like the family and investigators. This was like public to all, immediately. - But is this also because of how the family is? Like David came out of that house, not wanting to talk to anyone, and it wasn't until his brothers are like, "Dude, David, what the heck is wrong with you?" That he finally says something. And there is this isolation of no one believes him at first, which is oppressing isolating a victim. - Right, that's true. - But luckily, his family was able to help and step in. This basically meant the entity was starting to threaten David's free will, and was starting to encourage him to act differently than he normally would, which meant in Ed and Lorraine's eyes that this was starting the process and heading towards full-on possession. So in order to avoid that, they needed to get the local Catholic church involved, but there's so many roadblocks in terms of getting a church to approve an exorcism. - It feels near impossible. - Right. - And honestly, a lot of the really scary cases that we have previously researched, I feel like a lot of the priests don't want to, like the kind of uses to not be involved. - Exactly. And in order to get the church to approve an exorcism, they needed evidence. So Ed and Lorraine instruct the Glatzel family to record everything that they could. - Hearing all of this, Debbie Glatzel's boyfriend, Arnie Cheyenne Johnson, was still in disbelief about the whole thing. To him, Demons' possessions, like that was something you've seen in the movies, right? - Right. - That he wasn't a real thing. - That his girlfriend's brother was experiencing. So this was weird that this was happening in real life in his life, but they just couldn't deny it, right? Like there was so much happening around him, you can't deny it. There was shaking pictures falling off of walls, banging, they had all witnessed it. - Yeah. - And so they got to work. The family bought a tape recorder and a Polaroid camera ready to document whatever happened to David. - And here's one place in this case that people start to question the validity of it. And they say like, oh, Ed and Lorraine Warren, like the power of suggestion. Did they tell the Glatzel family what to expect of this possession so that these thoughts were now in David's mind? And he starts acting in the way that they said the progression of a possession happens. - Baby, but I'd argue the morons were brought in after some of this stuff was already presenting in David. - I do agree with that. But I think it's important to address why people question this case. - Yeah. - So for a while, nothing out of the ordinary occurs. But then one night, David changed. He starts convulsing, screaming and spitting. And this 12 year old boy starts to snarl and growl and speak in a voice that sounds completely different than his. His mom, Judy, like bravely stands there and demands that whatever demon is fermenting her child must leave immediately. And in response, this is horrifying. Little David begins to laugh. Not his cute 12 year old laugh that Judy knows. - I don't know. This is a sick horse mocking demonic laugh. - I just had a flashbacks when my child Noah, when he was like baby, baby, when he was an infant. He was having a lot of issues and my mom brought holy water and put it on his head like this. And the second she touched him with the holy water, he had a character for him. He were both like he's been possessed. - He has not. - He's not, he's not. - He's not, that was, I don't know. - It was just a little shock of water. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. Anyway, this, David was not so lucky. These things were truly happening to him. And he had countless nights like this through July and August of 1980. And then the glatzels and Ernie Cheyenne Johnson actually recorded most of these instances on tape. And every single experience was terrifying. And sometimes David was the aggressor. He would threaten his family. He would say that they're all gonna die. And he would make these really eerie, ominous predictions. He would growl, he would hiss. And also this part like really freaked me out. He quoted Bible verses and Paradise Lost despite never reading them. - Oh, and I'm also imagining it in these voices that are so foreign to him. - Right. - Oh, that's another thing with demonic possessions where there is a lot of mockery of religion and usually like the Christian religion. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Other nights it was like he was fighting this invisible attacker. He was clawing at unseen hands as if they were grasping at his throat. - Poor kid. - Ernie would pray for David alongside the rest of the family. The boy was like family to him. And it had gotten so bad that Ernie and the others would have to sleep in shifts so that there was always someone up at night waiting for David's episodes to start off so that they could document it and try to help David. - Right. - So things were getting worse by the minute. And what had started as small incidents, I don't know if you can call them small. - But smaller in comparison to what they are now. - Right, right. - These are becoming increasingly more violent and it was clear that David specifically was the target and something or many some things were trying to hurt him. So the family then context the warrants again telling the couple that they need their help and getting a priest to perform an exorcism on David. - Like ASAP. - Yes. - Now, they can't wait. - Right, because the stages are going to escalate and who's to say death is not near. - Yeah. - On September 2nd, 1980, the glances finally got their wish. - And I will say I was reading that David also would start in these attacks. He would start to speak about really, really violent things happening to his family and like predicting their death, which a 12 year old child would not do this. And then when he would come out of these attacks, he would be so scared and he would beg his family to like help him and stop it. - Not the same at all because this one's so much more extreme, but just like the switch between him basically possessed and him just as like a scared boy being like what's happening, does remind me a little bit of the Watteska Wonder case. - And the movie The Exorcism. - Yeah. - So on September 2nd, 1980, Ed and Lorraine Warren meet the glitzel family at a local Catholic church. And there is some debate here because I had read and learned a version of this where they never went to a church at all and all of the exorcisms were performed at the glitzel home. But according to the Warrens and the glitzels themselves, there were a few small exorcisms that happened over the summer. And this one was at St. Joseph's church in the town of Brookfield, Connecticut. But also this might have been, I feel like especially the Warrens with their connections, a lot of the stuff was kind of off the record. - Well, exactly 'cause even the local diocese has denied that any formal exorcism ever took place and that it was never at a church. But at the same time, they also declined to have any priests involved with the case speak to the press. So they basically were like trying to silence anyone involved. So there are a lot of questions, but like I said, the glitzels say they were at the church this day on September 2nd. And this is the version of the events as they happened. As soon as they walked in, they immediately felt better. Like something about being in the church was rejecting the negative bad energy that they were carrying with them. So they really felt that if David could be freed from the demon that was terrorizing him, this was the place to do it. So here they are, for priests stand at the front of the room. There is a priest who's going to lead the ceremony and he explains that exorcisms can be profoundly unsettling. And he even warned them that in some cases, people die during these exorcisms ceremony, which is a terrifying way to start this, but I can understand needing to state that up front. - The warning, because what you're about to see is really traumatic too, 'cause you're going to witness your child or your loved one, your brother, probably convulsing, fighting for his life. Often times, there's vomit, there's really violent retortions of bodies. - Which at this point haven't they already seen a lot of this anyway, but anyway, they all look around at each other and they share the same silent question. What other choice do they have? So the priest begins to pray the family joined in and David sits there quietly for a few minutes. And then out of nowhere, the entire room, the entire church becomes breathing, cold, and then it began. - At first, David screamed. He spat, he shouted obscenities at the priest and gradually his behavior became more and more extreme than it already was, that was extreme. His motions more erratic. And then all of a sudden, he was convulsing on the floor. His body was contorting in ways that they didn't ever feel like was possible for his body to. Arnie actually had to restrain David, practically wrestling him to the ground as this boy lurched back and forth. And at some point in the struggle, Arnie got hold of a small crucifix in a swift motion. He pressed the metal against David's forehead and David shrieked and cried in one of the brothers swore that he saw the crucifix on David's head, sizzle, like with a darning against David's skin. Nothing seemed to be working. This exorcism was supposed to save David, But it looked like it was killing him, and their family does not know what to do. I mean, they were desperate, and so too was Arnie, and in a split second he made a choice that would have far-reaching consequences for David, for Arnie, and for an innocent man named Alan Bono. It's September 2, 1980 in St. Joseph's Church in Brookfield, Connecticut. David Glotzel's exorcism has gone completely off the rails. As the priest continues to pray and demand that the demon leave David's body, the demon inside this twelve-year-old boy fights back. He shouts and snarls, lurching back and forth as Arnie Cheyenne Johnson keeps him pinned to the ground with his free hand. Suddenly, David starts choking and wheezing. Arnie can see that his tongue is swollen, it's blocking his airflow. As Arnie stares down at David, he tries to find a trace of the little boy that he'd known before all of this. But he doesn't recognize the child convulsing on the floor. The demon who has been tormenting David for the last few months has taken over his entire being. David is possessed. Arnie can't take it anymore. So with the crucifix still pressed against David's forehead, Arnie cries out, "Leave this little kid alone! I'm here! Take me on!" Suddenly, Arnie feels his body cold. The room starts to spin. He slowly loses his grip on David and he collapses onto the floor. The last thing Arnie hears is people shouting. And through the fog of his mind, he can tell that the voices belong to Ed and Lorraine Warren. They're shouting at him, and he can only catch snippets of what they're saying. But one thing stands out loud and clear. Do you realize what you've done? Did you know the most feared pirate in the Atlantic, the man who terrorized an entire ocean for years, may never have actually killed anyone? Or that the real Golden Age of Pirates was the most democratic workplace in the Western world? Carter Tomlinson from Love on the Spectrum, and History is my thing. And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact. Every week we take the most unbelievable true things in history and tell you the whole story behind them. Carter sets the scene, Carter brings the facts, the deep cuts, and the genuine belief that this is the most interesting subject in the world. It is. This is the History Lesson. You actually wished you had in high school. Two episodes every Wednesday follow What the Fact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod. The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking, 48 hours. That's how long detectives have before the trail begins to go cold. From A&E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous True Crime Series, the First 48, step inside the critical window, the interrogations, the dead ends, and the breakthroughs that crack a case wide open. On Carter Roy, each week I revisit a landmark homicide investigation with a depth you know and immersive long form storytelling built for your ears. Real detectives, real cases, real stakes. This is the First 48. Two episodes every Thursday. Listen to and follow The First 48 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And during this exorcism is when Ed and Lorraine claimed that there were somewhere between 42 and 43 demons possessing or trying to possess David, which I don't know how they calculate that number, I don't know necessarily, but that is a stat that has stuck with me during this case. And now A&E has basically invited the entities into his own body to sacrifice himself. And this is where things take a really major turn. I fell in tears, drippy. And I don't even think A&E knew what he was doing. I think he just like in the heat of the moment. Yeah, desperate. Wanting to protect this young boy, sacrifice himself, and it reminds me because I recently watched this movie, The Exorcist, I rewatched it. And the priest in that movie does that. He realizes that the demons not going to leave little Reagan alone. So he volunteers this tribute and sacrifices himself. I mean, to me, it makes sense because you're like, OK, well, the demon already has such claws in David, right? That if it is tempted by its own ego to take on someone bigger and stronger, a wouldn't it pivot? Right. And it almost has to start again, you would think, like from the beginning to try to take you on. I would do it too. If you were possessed, I'd be like, oh, no, you would sacrifice yourself for me 100% and I would win. I don't know. I love you. I don't know that I would because I don't think I could win. Oh, well, I think I would be gone. Well, you wouldn't have to sacrifice yourself because I had all of ready me. Who has a bigger ego? Don't tell me. This is not an invitation. It will be very clear. We're all about setting boundaries and stop and touch me there. Demons are not welcome into our lives. But we do enjoy the stories. OK. So in this moment, no one's really sure of what happened. Exactly. Yes. Arnie out loud, sacrificed himself. But then after he does that, things go really, really quiet. David seems to settle and he slowly starts to return to that happy 12-year-old child that you knew him to be. And that's another point of this that does make me think it is a real possession is because if it were a mental illness or something mentally psychologically wrong with David, it wouldn't just like all of a sudden end and he's fine. Nothing ever happens to him again. Mental illness is a reoccurring thing like that, you know? But despite this strange experience in the church, Arnie himself feels fine. And he's like, oh, maybe the risk that I took actually paid off and the demon hadn't been strong enough to take him on. He sounds like you, Kren, similar mentality. Yeah. But Ed. Hold on. Maybe this is a cautionary tale for me. I think it is. I think it is. To deliver you to the priest instead. I was shocked you were willing to sacrifice yourself for me, so I'm not offended by you taking it back. OK. So Ed and Lorraine Warren, having spent years and years and basically their whole lives doing this work, they're not as convinced. They have seen plenty of dark, demonic entities and they don't trust this silence. It's kind of like an eye of the storm, where you know what's coming again. The false sense of safety. So in their perspective, it was like this is actually the beginning of a whole new problem and they claimed that this evil now resided in Arnie. They even supposedly went to the Brookfield police to caution them. And I can't even imagine this interaction, but Lorraine spoke to police and said that her powers had shown her an image of someone being killed with a knife. Although I would argue I feel like the local police in the whole Connecticut Rhode Island region might be very aware of Ed and Lorraine already. That's true. But that doesn't mean they believe in them. True. True. So psychic visions are not normally the kinds of tips that cops take seriously. So they listen to Lorraine. They're like, thank you. And they center on her way. But she pleads with them one last time. And she's very specific. She's like, please keep an eye on Arnie Cheyenne Johnson. OK. So they were. She was connecting. She had been dying to Arnie Cheyenne Johnson. Yes. So I don't know that anything necessarily would have changed had they taken it more seriously because no one could have guessed how right her prediction would be. For the next few months, Arnie Cheyenne Johnson's life went back to normal for the most part. He and Debbie decided to rent an apartment in Brookfield in the same town as her family. It was owned by 40-year-old Alan Bono. Alan was funny. He was friendly. Larger than life, and he, Debbie, and Arnie became really fast friends. He even got Debbie a job working as a dog groomer at the kennel that he owned. Always grand, except Arnie was experiencing some unusual things. Things on their own seemed a bit minor. There were weird lapses, moments where he would just stare off blankly, started to associate. And he started getting really irritable. And even Debbie noticed some odd things like Arnie growling and muttering under her breath. A little strange, weird things. Small little changes. So on their own, in small doses, these things, I guess to them, don't seem overly concerning until February 16, 1981. That day, Arnie had woken up feeling off. And he figured he was just coming down with a cold and didn't think much of it. That day, he and Debbie had plans. They were gonna spend the day with Arnie's 15 year old sister, Wanda, Debbie's 9 year old niece named Mary, and their landlord, Alan Bono. But at lunch, Arnie and Debbie noticed that Alan Bono was drinking maybe one too many glasses of wine, and he was getting a bit too boisterous with the girls. So after lunch, they all head back to the dog kennel where Debbie and Alan worked. And as far as they claim, the afternoon was pretty unremarkable, but there was a tension that simmered in the air. And Debbie decided to take the girls out for pizza while Arnie and Alan hung out at the kennel a little longer. But Debbie couldn't shake this feeling that something wasn't right. After their dinner, she brought the girls back to the kennel where Alan had an apartment upstairs, and he invited them up, and he wouldn't take no for an answer. Alan was acting really strange. He started playing the TV way too loud and repeatedly punching his fist into his hand, which is really scary. So Debbie knew we got to get out of here, but as soon as they turned to leave, Alan grabbed nine-year-old Mary and would not let go until Debbie literally pride his hands off of this little girl. Apple. Arnie had already headed back down to the car, so he wasn't there for it, but he heard the commotion, and so then he goes back upstairs. He told Alan, "Let go!" and that is when Arnie's sister, Wanda, said, "Everything went haywire." Arnie stood in front of Alan, stiff as a board, his face completely expressionless. It was like something was gluing him to the spot. Even when Wanda tried to pull him off to leave, Arnie wouldn't budge. Debbie tried pushing her way between the two men to diffuse the tension, but there was no stopping it, and all of a sudden, Arnie let out a deep guttural growl and lunge forward holding something shiny in his hand. In instant later, it was over. Arnie simply turned around and walked out of the room, covered in blood Debbie shouted after him, but it was like Arnie was in a trance. He kept walking. He never turned around. And that is when she realized Alan Bono had been stabbed multiple times, which is so traumatic for Debbie, Wanda, and Mary to have a witness this call in front of their own eyes. Right. Yeah, and some of them are so young, so young. Then Alan fell onto his face, bleeding profusely from the handful of stab wounds Arnie had left. The shining object was a five-inch knife, Arnie always kept on him. And now it was lying on the ground next to Alan, covered in his blood. And remember, Arnie hit just like in a trance, like walked off, staring into nothingness, blood soaked. So Debbie's too afraid to go after Arnie, and instead she runs downstairs to the kennel and calls an ambulance for Alan. Unfortunately, they were too late to save him, and Alan Bono died in the hospital a short while later. As soon as the emergency call went out, the police put out an all-points bulletin for Arnie, and he hadn't gone far because after the ambulance driver dropped Alan at the hospital, he spotted Arnie walking down a road not far from the Gotsell family home. It didn't take long for the cops to find him and then take him into custody. And when the cops explained to Arnie why he was being arrested, he refused to believe it. He was like, I could never kill anyone, let alone his own friend. Right. But the evidence was undeniable, and Arnie had to face a truth that he really didn't understand. He had killed Alan Bono, or at least his body had. And Arnie hadn't forgotten about the hearing last few months with David Glatzel, and he certainly hadn't forgotten about what he had said during that exorcism. Arnie was convinced that something else was controlling him when his body killed Alan Bono. The demon, the demon specifically that was possessing David, had taken him up on his offer and taken Arnie's body, used it to kill Alan. At first, Arnie's defense lawyer, Martin Manela, is like, I don't think so, buddy. And also, as a lawyer, it's a very strange defense. It's a very strange defense. And this is the first time this defense has ever brought up in the U.S. court. So as a lawyer, he's like, I've never heard of this before, and I don't really believe it or buy it. It's not like, how do you prove the paranormal? We've been chasing that for years. Right. We've been trying. Still, as his lawyer, Manela wants to investigate these claims. And so he goes to Ed and Lorraine Warren to see if they have any real proof that David Glatzel was possessed. And the Warrens play him a bunch of tapes. Like they have so much evidence from that case. Each new clip is more chilling than the last. And all of a sudden now, Manela is like, okay, Arnie's claims don't sound so far fetched anymore. And then Manela learned about the wounds the Allen Bono had suffered. And this is what made him really start to believe. So according to Manela, no human could have driven a knife that deep into a body. So this could only be the work of a devil. Which I have not seen or do I care to see any of this forensic evidence. But I feel like they're just from what I know about true crime and the violence behind any violence necessary to kill someone. I imagine that force could come from a human. Oh, okay. Yes. But let's think of the detail about how Arnie was standing there. It's not like he lunged forward and had the force and momentum of himself. It seems like he was like a still as a statue standing there confronting Allen. The two of them just completely still. And then suddenly it's like, and it goes that deep. And also all the stories being told by the surviving, not the victim. True. Anyway. And by people related to him or yeah. And we'll discuss more of these theories because I have thoughts and we'll get to them. Yes. So Manela agreed to help Arnie. Are you that he had been possessed when he killed Allen? A plea of not guilty by demonic possession, which had never been made in the US courts. Actually anywhere, I think there was only one other case in the whole world and it was somewhere in the UK that had used a similar defense. Yes. Yeah. So it does seem outlandish and outrageous. And soon the outrageous nature of this claim turned Arnie, Cheyenne Johnson into an international figure. But that's not because everybody believed Arnie. A lot of people found it absolutely absurd and unbelievable that a murderer could claim quote, the devil made me do it. So the question of whether or not Arnie or anyone could be possessed by demon really does come down to a matter of faith. And so for believers and during this time for believers, there was no question. Plus there were the recordings of David Glatzel. They were more than enough to show that a demon was present in the Glatzel family in Arnie's life. That could have taken over Arnie. First, it came for David and then it came for Arnie. But then the skeptical side, including the prosecution, it was a lot less dramatic than that. To them, it was nothing more than a standard homicide where a man killed another man without any interference of the supernatural. And I do think it's important that because this is something that really came up in the case here is this matter of mental illness. A lot of young men who are diagnosed with schizophrenia do manifest symptoms sometime around their early 20s. And Arnie was 19. So he's right around that age. But we'll get into why that's not true. But we tongue now. But I'm just saying that's something that they consider. Yeah, yeah. And you guys can consider for a few more moments before we get into it. And then Lauren Krinn will tell you not to consider it anymore. When Arnie Cheyenne Johnson's trial began, a few days before Halloween on October 28, 1981, his defense was prepared to show everything they had, the tapes, the firsthand accounts, they even had a priest ready to speak to the jury. But they never got the chance. Dang it. That means we don't get a chance of seeing it. That same day, the judge declared that demonic possession was not a viable defense and that they could not argue it. So Arnie's lawyers pivoted to a plea of self defense in hopes that that might get him convicted, basically of just manslaughter instead of first degree murder. Yeah. And there wasn't really any arguing that Arnie hadn't killed Alan. We knew that that was true. That was true. That was the truth. The question was, what was his motivation? Was it a cold blooded attack? Was it him protecting his loved ones? And after a 27 day trial, the jury delivered its verdict on November 24, 1981, guilty of manslaughter. So the defense was able to convince the jury that Arnie killed Alan to protect Debbie and the girls. Really interesting, given that they couldn't use any of the evidence of David in that possession. Right. I know. But so it still was during the trial. It was still convincing enough. Yeah. It was still a crime, but it wasn't murder. And this is interesting, too, because when we previously researched this topic for two girls who goes, I actually didn't know anything about the self defense approach. I didn't know Alan was being like weird and handsy. And I'm almost like, why wouldn't that be? That is self-defense, if Alan was being that creepy, grabbing onto children, not letting them go. It's children, too. Yeah. Like a nine year old. But Arnie was given the maximum of 10 to 20 years in prison, though he only ended up serving five years in total and was released in 1986 on good behavior. And after that, and this is why I and we don't believe mental illness is a real thing here in this case, mental illness is very real. I have it. But in this case, it doesn't apply because after he's released from prison, he really moved on with his life while he was in prison. Arnie and Debbie actually got married. And then when he was released, they moved in together. They had a whole life together. They had two kids together. And they had a really quiet life until Debbie passed away in 2021. But going back to the mental illness thing, like if it was schizophrenia, you don't just go to jail for five years, come out and all of a sudden your schizophrenia is gone. You're scared. Yeah. It's a momentary lapse of that. Right. It's not like we are owed access to people's medication either. But I know. I feel like that would have made its way into the public. Yes. I agree. Truly, this is a story. the world would never forget. And it's still one that people really do debate. Like, was it paranormal or was it just an active violence? Well, Debbie and Arnie never stopped believing that his crime was the work of demonic possession. The likelihood of this being due to a case of mental illness like schizophrenia, it just was very unlikely since Arnie hadn't shown any signs of that prior or after killing Allen Bono. Right. But for the glatso family, it was a lot more complicated. Yeah. David still believes that he himself, when he was 12 years old, was possessed by a demon. His mother and his brother, Allen also thought so. But David's older brother, Carl, and their father, Carl, senior. The Carls. The Carls. They were used to buy any of it. So they were witness to all of this, all the tapes, the evidence people coming into their home, various exorcisms in many different places. And yet they say, no, to them, the, quote unquote, demon was nothing more than a hoax. The David was just acting up for attention. Well, and in the devil on trial, documentary, Carl, the brother does say he very much believes and graduated like he was young too, but he probably influenced by his father very much believes that and Lorraine Warren came in, basically described everything that will happen during a possession case. And then like clockwork, all of those things started happening. And we're being exhibited by the power of suggestion. Whether David knew he was doing it purposefully or not. Yes. I don't know. Like if you really was acting up and all this stuff, I find it hard to believe it suddenly, with just the offer from Ari to say, I will take the demon that is just like, oh, I'm good now. I'm good. Yeah, we're back to being normal here. I agree. Yeah. So even after everything that happened, it seems like not everyone who was involved in the case believes. Sorry, one more thing. Also, pro-demonic possession, especially where it comes to David, like this child is being what seems like physically choked by unseen hands in front of family members. So it's like, I don't know about you, but like I can't lay here and like convince you that someone's choking me and start convulsing and being lifted off the floor by myself. I'm not that talented. No. I don't think anyone is. Except demons. Right. Like if you can actively make yourself float, I'm just still something paranoid. Exactly. But for Carl and Carl senior, obviously they didn't fully believe. And actually, they had a pretty negative view of the war. And like you suggested that they were coming in and suggesting things. But more than that, they thought that they were just grifters who took advantage of these troubling situations and basically enabled increasingly alarming and dangerous behavior. There's also another theory, I think again, proposed by Carl, the brother, that he had like read his mom's journal. This is where it comes back to the Flintstones, but not the Flintstones vitamins. And in her journal, she had written like everyone in the family took their medication. And then it spiraled this whole thing of like, was the mom giving the family Benadrill? I don't know why that became a thing. But then in researching about the side effects of Benadrill, there's a theory it's connected to like overuse and overtaking of Benadrill could be tied to later on dementia. Oh, interesting. But we're going to feel like hallucinations because a lot of people who experience sleep paralysis talk about taking Benadrill or something like that, which is drowsy. But there's literally no connection to hallucinations with taking Benadrill. And also if that were true, if everyone is being drugged with Benadrill, which why is that happening? Wouldn't multiple people have these side effects? Not just David. Right. And if David has early onset Alzheimer's at age of 12, that would continue after it doesn't just disappear. Yeah. Agreed. It also doesn't help with the fact that the Warrens after this trial signed a major book deal about David's story. And they did promise the Glatzel's some profit on it. But the Warrens got over $80,000 for the book, which is worth over more than $250,000 in today's money. And the Glatzel's only got around $4,500. So I think similar to what you were saying, like Carl and Carl senior felt like the Warrens were just like taking advantage of them. Right. Because it's not like the Glatzel's came and we're like, we want you to help us get this story out. It was help get this demon out. And then now suddenly they're lives and the most horrific thing to happen to their family is public. And for other people's enjoyment and the monetary gain. So this is where my questioning the demonic position of Arnie comes in. I absolutely believe that David Glatzel was possessed. He was battling demons that were thankfully rid from his body. I do question whether or not Arnie was possessed. Because given the fact that he is willing to sacrifice himself for young David who's being possessed, I imagine in the moment of seeing this man, Alan Bono, who's drunk and it being handsy with his loved ones, not letting go of a nine year old girl. Like I can see how wanting to protect his loved ones, he once again steps in and does act violently. And then it's after the fact when he comes to remembers all of the violence that he did commit at his own hands, he starts to like want to believe. It was a demon. And he has this whole background of a demon possessing someone else in his life. Self-defense is also such a hard thing to argue for. There's a lot of cases where it doesn't hold up even though it feels so clearly like self-defense. I immediately think of like the Menendez brothers case now. But it's also like, you know, when we're watching horror movies and stuff and someone doesn't pull the trigger, doesn't run out the door and you're like, why did you hesitate? And it's like, well, maybe that was something that Arnie was going through in that moment too. Because like if he does hesitate, perhaps someone does get hurt and killed. We don't know what happened in the split second. Right. Before he decided or something within him decided to attack Alan. Attack Alan. And also if it was a demonic possession, if we look at how many times they had to perform these rituals or like blessings or exorcisms on David to finally rid him of the entity, none of that was performed on Arnie. And I think his belief was that the demon just wanted to take a life and when he killed Alan, the demon got what he wanted left his body. Well, and I will like to argue the demon made me do it side of this case. We saw with David how quickly things escalated. It did get from zero to 100 within like 24 hours. Like if that, it was very abnormal, I think, from my perspective, when it comes to how demonic attachments and possessions ordinarily happen. So it's not unbelievable to me that something could be like laying dormant, festering, just like making little moments of coming out here and there. And then just coming full force out at once. Right. We don't know. And I think that's the hardest part about the paranormal, also some of the most exciting parts of the paranormal is that we don't know. Like even going back to the very beginning of this case, David is sweeping the bedroom. What was happening in this house? What, like did the previous tenets of this place experience? It was probably peaceful and quiet. Like most demonic possession cases are. But also I will, okay, going to the side of Carl and Carl senior. Yeah. And the suggestibility that the warrants came in to bring. There's a lot of parallels with the Amityville horror case, which they had just come off of. Yes. And I know actually that's a great tie because we'll kind of, but there's a movie about the Amityville. Well, there's a movie about Amityville horror. And I wanted to talk about the movie based on this case, which I know that we are no longer in season one, which is crimes of infamy. But we do love movies. And there's also a horror movie based on this case, the Conjuring, the Devil made me do it, which is the seventh installment in the Conjuring universe. And it has a lot of the elements of the story we just shared with you. But it also adds its own, you know, embellishments like a witch's totem that was left in the Glatzel's home and passed a curse onto David. But it's also my least favorite of the Conjuring series. Yeah. We're definitely fans of the Conjuring and that franchise. But it is interesting because they do take the side of Ed and Lorraine Warren when telling it. And I do feel like so many of the interesting details of the actual haunting and cases that they cover are lost. It's also Hollywood. And so they dramatize, they dramatize, dramatize, yeah, dramamine and financial and all those things. But that's the Conjuring movies are great. Highly recommend. Please, as if we get anything from it. We need a kick back. But we're curious to hear what you think about this case too. Like was it paranormal? Even now it's, it's hard to know for sure what happened on that February day in 1981 was Arnie just a killer or was he the victim of a vengeful demon? And the answer to that question depends on who you ask. And regardless, the truth is that a man was brutally murdered in cold blood. Demon or not, the cost of all of this was one man's life cut short. But for Arnie and David, the demon was very, very real and now fortunately they're both free. Neither of them are possessed anymore. The demon is finally gone. At least as far as we know. And we know very little. But we do believe it goes and that's why we are so excited for this season of crimes of and we cannot wait to bring you another mystifying case next week. Thanks so much for listening, we are your hosts Sabrina Deanna Rogat and Corinne Vienn. Join us next Tuesday for another peek inside another crimes of the paranormal. And if there are any cases that you would like us to cover, let us know in the comments. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at Crime House. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow crimes of wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. Okay, today we're going to do the same sign-off that we've been doing. Let's give it our best demon voices. Okay. Okay. Bad demon. That was good. See you next week. 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