The most surprising developments in the season's first month

Welcome to the athletic football show brought to you by the US Bank smartly visa signature card. I'm Robert Mayes. Really enjoyed today's show our old buddy Deontay Lee from the ringer came on and we talked about just the things that have been most surprising to us over the first month of the season. I mentioned this and when Deontay is on there, but we were really going to dig into some specific stuff defensively from what the years looked like so far and I just wanted to zoom out a little bit like we're four weeks into the year. I feel like on this show specifically sometimes we can really be so deep in the muck that we don't come up for air off then enough and just kind of think about what the league is felt like and just what the big picture perspective is and so that's what we wanted to do today. We picked about seven or eight things that have just been most surprising or most striking compared to expectations about what the season has looked like so far. Some of that stuff were topics that we've hit before like the chargers and the Texans defense, but we also use those as jumping off points to larger conversations and so this really is just kind of a bird's eye view of how the first month of the season has played out and what has felt surprising about a lot of the results that we have seen so far. So let's get to that conversation with me and Deontay right now. We're a month into the NFL season with week four being over on the eve of week five and the original idea today that I wanted to do was talk to Deontay about something defense specific and really like dive in and chew on some of the schematics that that's happened in the league so far. And I was sitting there last night just kind of thinking about how strange the NFL season has felt to this point and just how hard it's been to kind of get a handle on what's real what's not. I can't remember the exact impetus for it, but I was just trying to think about the context associated with a certain type of performance and how now it's reframe because we know more about that team that we did two weeks ago and my takeaway in that entire headspace exercise was there's just so much chaos right now that I actually wanted to just zoom out a little bit take a breath and talk about some of the stuff that has really jumped out to us and either a surprising or striking way over the first month of the season. And so that's what we're going to do today rather than dig in even deeper I wanted to actually come back and see if we could get some perspective on this whole thing. Look, I have a deep appreciation for this my slack messages every week have been like oh my god all these teams are scoring a week one without needing explosive passes is at the new meta of the league a week later that's right back out of the door it's actually not like that at all you know teams that I was you know ready to dismiss after a couple weeks are getting hot and you know the opposite is happening in other spaces. So I think that zooming out and being able to take a look honestly this kind of gives me a chance to breathe for a second and kind of let go of the wheel a little bit you know I don't have to white knuckle this thing we got 17 18 weeks of this before we get to the playoffs. That's exactly why I wanted to spend the quarter market the season feels good good time to do this while also acknowledging and I want that to just be the first beat we hit here I still don't think we know jack shit. But truly I do not think we know anything that's real and lasting I think there's some things that have really jumped out and that's what I want to dig into but there are no sweeping proclamations to be made somebody angry Jaguar fans which I can understand why they are were retweeting some of the conversations we were having about Trevor Lawrence at me a month into last season we're just like oh man Trevor Lawrence struggling is this just who he is turns out no. So I a month in it's always best to pump the brakes a little bit, but I do think there's plenty of interesting stuff to chew on I remember what it was I was trying to think about the the just the marks of the Panther season so far and brush young has a monster day against the Falcons in week two and it's kind of like well it's the Falcons defense and then we see what the Falcons defense has done the last couple weeks and it's like oh I guess that was even more impressive than we even knew in the moments and so absolutely. First month is it's just like a constant exercise in trying to find the right and real context around everything and so I think we're going to do a little bit more of that today I would think so and it's funny right just how often it's a moving target because I would say like a few seasons ago I got a month in and I was like actually I think I have a pretty good handle on who doesn't matter in this league I remember sitting and talking to some of my co-workers are like you feel that strongly going in October and I was like yeah you can just look at some of these teams some of the underlying metrics you know the injuries and all that you know you can kind of catwalk and you know you can have a good time. Last aside I think that this year is probably like the absolute inverse of that like 2024 I felt like we were pretty clear after about a month about who was serious and who wasn't this year I would not I would never you know venture to make that same type of proclamation. So we're going to make about seven or eight proclamations today just about the things that had been surprising to us the most surprising again surprising slash striking things about the league so far and talking about things that are over that's my first one. This air of the Philadelphia Eagles is just over now and I don't mean that the Jurgen's trade signals they're waving a white flag I think it's more complicated than that and we'll dig into the specifics of it but when you think about the discussion about the Eagles coming into the season and why they could be. A team that was a contender a relevant team to the end of the year it was a lot of what we've seen this group do it before this group as constructed they won the Super Bowl two years ago I can this group do it again. And then you look at this team now with Lane Johnson gone which we can dig into with the Jurgen's trade happening with the defense just being a complete youth movement and there are just aren't a lot of guys around that we recognize anymore and with the offensive line going from. The identity of this team everything about the Philadelphia Eagles offensively was built upon their offensive line for the last decade seemingly. And now you're looking at this group and we got Willie Lampkin and Drew Kendall and Markel Bell and I think just in so many ways it really does feel like over the last 48 hours or so we have shut the door on an entire era of Philadelphia Eagles football and it just seems like it happened very quickly. Absolutely and I want to kind of address the last piece of what you said first I can't remember the last time I look at an Eagles Dept chart and look at their backups and was like oh my god if somebody gets hurt this is really really bad. I'm very I'm much more used to looking at the Eagles after I'm like Jesus you guys might have two NFL starters sitting behind all pros right like it is just it could not be more opposite from where we were in 2024 in 2022 when this team was gangbusters offensively and could do whatever they wanted even if there were you know. Quibbles about what they were doing schematically right and I think that the conjunction the conjunction of Lane Johnson's retirement plus the camdurgeon trade wasn't a reminder for me that teams interseasons with multiple things being true at the same time and you're really just waiting to see which truth we land on right based off of the results of the season and like you were saying I think the optimistic view is hey you've got a quarterback that you've been to championships for them won a championship with you've got a head coach who has been there and done it whatever you're. You know quibbles might be with his approach to the game game management you know questions about what his leadership style maybe you've seen them do it before you have big fan jail calling this defense you have all of this bottom goodwill and then after those two moves happen I'm sitting yesterday talking with you know our old buddies bow wolf you know and I'm like jeez actually maybe I should have been asking a question that if you had to beg Lane Johnson to come back and he took a hiatus in training camp and you have to beg you know landing Dickerson to give this another shot and him and camdurgeons had to leave the country to go get treatment. He's done on their lower body so that way they could be okay to start the season maybe I didn't spend enough time thinking about what the outcome is if that tends to be more of the truth of this team than what I thought more optimistically and it's just a fascinating place to be for this team and like you said I'm looking at them now and you look at the schedule and God in it there is a chance that even their A game might not be good enough for them to leave up to the Eagle standard that we got really comfortable with over the last half decade. But I don't even know what that a game looks like with the current state of the offense and the fact that the defense we expected the defense to come in and be one of those just game changing units consistently where they are controlling the way that games are played as the offense kind of figures itself out over the course of the year and that just hasn't happened it hasn't happened with a couple of the defenses we expected that from and we'll talk about that. So you look at the Eagles right now and if the defense is going to be somewhere around a middle of the pack unit and the offense is going to be in the current state that it's in we might be looking at another one of those bottoming out Eagle seasons which they have right even in this run of really sustained success. They aren't really afraid to have these massive dip seasons because it's actually a good thing to have them every once in a while when you have job security and I'm talking about the front office not the coaching staff when you have that job security because it allows you to have access to players like Davante Smith and kind of reload with those sorts of guys every once in a while but I think we're headed more toward one of those Eagle seasons than a season where they're trying to squeeze every last drop out of the roster like the way they have over the last few years understandably so. As we're you know I know that the conceit of this show is what takeaways we have now and I think so much of it is actually just like a reminder of certain tin pulsar things that are just true about the NFL in general and that's that this league is built on roster attrition the fact that you don't just get to be excellent in perpetuity that you don't just get to keep your continuity and all the guys will be great and you'll stick around and there's going to be some linear you know this linear growth year over year and that brain drain is not going to affect you it is extremely rare that that is the case for any franchise. Even the best of them and Philadelphia is not exempt and like you were saying all the things we believed about Philadelphia's front four you look now they've got the lowest quarterback hit rate in the league through four weeks you think that's the disease on defense like you think that's the issue that's plaguing them right now that that would make the most sense that's my take away as well. That's the easiest thing, that's the easiest thing to point to that A is causing them problems and B that you can sell yourself on regression back to the mean positively for this defense, right? They've been, they've built this entire thing on being able to get home with four. You've got good enough players to get home with four. You've got to believe that over the course of a 17 game season that more, more contact on the quarterback will start happening and you're not going to have to blitz. And then there's also that big, didn't trust that your defensive play collar, who's one of the greatest that we've seen in the NFL in NFL history will figure out ways to manufacture pressure if that four man Russia is not enough. I think that's your finger crossed case if you're an Eagles fan to say, hey, even if this offense actually is bottoms up, we might still be able to squeak a 98 10 and 7 season where we can kind of backdoor our way into the playoffs and get ourselves a one game sample where maybe this defense can win us a game or two. That's I think what you're leaning on right now more than anything. You got to tell yourself a story to get there though. I mean, that feels like a tough needle to thread. I would not not. I tell you that. Yeah, you're selling yourself on that, but that ain't what you're seeing on tape. And when I say, when I say, I don't think they're waving the white flag. I think that some people are looking at the durgans train being like, oh man, fire sale time. I don't think so. Like the idea that you'd be able to get some of the key pieces from this team based on one move for Kevin Durgans to me is misguided on defense. That's going to be the foundation of the team moving forward. Like those guys are going to be what they build this thing on the jerk and straight to me feels like a we know we're not really going anywhere. This is a guy who doesn't have a position right now because he was really struggling a guard. His body has failed him before we have long term concerns about himself to get offered a second round pick for that player in this moment given the current state of your offense in the current state of your season. You can't really say no to that, but on a multi year level, you're still trying to keep the vast majority of this roster together. The question becomes, how are you going to rebuild this offensive line in time to make the rest of the roster construction matter? Because now you're in a spot where you did it with the defensive secondary two years ago. You were able to kind of refuel the plane and mid air to get Q and Cuperdigine in the same off season and it helped you win the Super Bowl. Can you do that with the offensive line in one single year before you get to a 2028 off season where now everything is on the table. You got two first, you got two second, you got some financial decisions to make about the quarterback. Again, I think the defense, they'll play Mitchell, they'll pay to Jean, they already paid the defensive tackles like that all is all going to be there. But the offense, it feels like we could be dealing with an entirely different group over the next two years. And I'm just not sure how the offensive line gets back to a place where you're a championship caliber team in the next 12 months given the current state of the offensive line. That's going to be the real challenge. I mean, you would just struggle to find precedent where that happens, right? Like you can find rookie production that can get you back to a championship level out of a lot of positions. The bears did it in a year, right? The bears did it in a year, even even something like what the Browns did this off season, you can do it in a single year. But even that requires a level of aggressiveness where you're trying to kind of maximize the moment where if you're how do you care about maximizing the moment for 2027. I was going to say, yeah, I don't think he's not in Orion polls position where hey, I've got to bring in Jonah Jackson all these injuries and just bank on the fact that we can get him healthy with his old coach. I can't, you know, you're not making a decision to bring in a mid 30s Joe Tony and crossing your fingers and hoping, hey, what we saw over the post season is actually not who he is. And if he gets an off season to kind of flush his legs a little bit will actually get back to him playing at his position and at a level that we expect him to be at. If you're Philadelphia, you don't want to live in that world, right? This franchise kind of prides itself on the fact that they never have to make those type of decisions under duress and that they got to get to take advantage of other teams who are making those types of decisions to be able to extract that draft capital. And if you're how he roseman, that's exactly how you feel after trading cam durgans, would you like to have kept your former, you know, high level center around. Yes, but in this moment where you struggling where you're kind of remaking off in some ways, you might not have gotten potentially another top 50 top 60 pick. You know, who are a guy like this given where his body is at and given what the trajectory of his career looks like at any other point in time from here on to the end of his contract. So it makes sense to make that move. I think that you also pointed out the right perspective in that. How he roseman has sat at a podium already and I would say people who talk to how he roseman and know this brain trust have kind of been signaling this since the AJ Brown trade request started bubbling up last year that everybody in this franchise is kind of aware of the fact that. The expensive offense days have to end because again, the league doesn't work like that you don't get to keep all your good players in perpetuity. They were going to have to, you know, kind of pivot and start to bring in new bodies. And I think, you know, in talking with some of my buddies, you know, around the media, I think that my biggest question is. Was it this year is about trying to figure out whether or not Jalen Hertz was going to get a second extension and whether or not he's going to be the long term answer. And that you're going to use those draft picks elsewhere to build around him or not. I think the bigger question now if you're in the Eagles fan. And if you're somebody covering the Eagles is trying to suck out whether or not that was an evaluation that's on the table. And if a move like this is maybe an implied kind of answer that they're thinking about what the future looks like at the quarterback position and beyond. That was what I was going to say. Maybe it wasn't evaluation that was in progress and a month into the season it would feel like a very quick hook or a quick closing of that evaluation. But maybe after a combination of last season and the last month and just how he's taken to this. Maybe that was enough, which it's going to be fascinating. Like how they rebuild the offense specifically over the next two years and whether that includes moving out from the quarterback and trying to find another one. And that they now have the ammo in a draft two years from now to potentially seek that out is really interesting on the Ravens side of this. What do you think about the Ravens being that aggressive to go get cam dragons in this moment. Is it a move that I would like to have made no right but this speaks to what you have to do in your under duress right as a GM. You've got multiple centers on IR. You're going to probably be playing your backup quarterback for a couple of weeks just based off of some of the hinting and reporting around Lamar Jackson's ankle sprain and you've got a new offense. And I'm pretty sure this is probably decked with oil or Jesse miter saying, Hey, I trust you the cost. But we don't have to make my life this hard. Okay, if you can go get me somebody to make life a little bit easier. I would love to have a player that I can at least feel certain about. I think that it's probably a worthwhile bet for Baltimore, because if he's great, he's now cause control right he's caused control as an interior lineman as your center. You feel a lot better about trying to spin things forward around this offense knowing that there were so many questions about the center position to start this year for you guys anyways. That will be a great question answered for them. And if his body is banged up. You can say, Hey, man, we took a big swing. It didn't work out. We're actually not hampering our long term future too badly because it's not like they'd have to eat a bunch of cap casualties to be able to move on from them if that ended up being the case after this year or maybe next season. So I think that you can sell yourself on the fact that it's high upside for Baltimore. It is just a major risk on draft capital. Just given what we've seen on the field from camera during this year that I don't know if I will be the most comfortable making. It's an overpaid clearly, but I can understand the mindset that leads to it in this moment on a couple different fronts. One, you've seen what this offense looks like over the first month of the season. And if I were Eric to Costa and if I were Jesse mentor and I'm looking at the potency we have felt from the offense. I can understand trying to squeeze onto that thing with both hands and not let go. And that's what this feels like. And I also think it speaks to a larger point that I want to dig into a little bit later on the show. How many teams around the league right now do you think are looking at the current state of league and saying why not us. I mean, if you're in if you feel like you're a top 20 team in the NFL right now, you've got to be thinking we if there's a way for us to put to lean in on 2026, we need to probably start exercising as many options as we can to lean in. And I think the Ravens if you're looking at your offense and you know that will Mars can be back in a couple weeks and that center thing is just staring you in the face. And it's not just the center thing by making the trade for cam organs and moving. Oh, you want to back to guard you get better at two protecting him. Yes. And and you get better at two positions at the same time and you give yourself a chance to unlock this offense that I personally and I think a lot of people justifiably are really really excited about. And so if if all it took was a round and a half overpay to go get cam durgans in order to potentially give yourself that in the long term, I can understand landing there if you're to costume. Man, like, yeah, that it might look really ugly in a couple years based on his production and us handing a pick to the Eagles, but the idea of not letting this thing slip through our fingers because of what we could potentially accomplish. Understand that like I think sometimes teams overstate that stuff when they're making moves like this. And I also think that's an important part of it. I we did a segment on the athletic show which I do for the company with Amazon and we were talking today about in season trades and some history in season trades and just how checkered they are because a lot of them don't work out. You know, for every version of the Von Mill or Odell Beckham thing we have 10 Maori Cooper traits, but those I think you're talking yourself into the idea of this is going to put us over the top. We are this thing away from competing. I don't I don't see the jergans move as they. that, I see it as protecting yourself. I see it as a backstop choice. And that mindset to me makes it a little bit easier to justify even if you know you're overpaying compared to one of those, well, if we just get another receiver in here, this thing is off to the races. That's speculative. This you have proof of concept for how good the offense can be if you're getting an acceptable level of offensive line play overall. I mean, there's just so much evidence in Baltimore specifically to support the fact that when the offensive line starts falling to pieces, it can very much unravel what would have otherwise been excellent offensive play. We have talked about the Ravens offense taking steps backwards because they're playing guys out of positions or you're leaning on guys that you wouldn't have wanted to to open the season. And if I'm, yeah, if I'm married to Costa, I didn't bring John Simpson in to have to ask him to be a starter this early in the year. That's my break glass option. I just like having them around because I know the guy, right? Like that, that's much more of what you're thinking. You don't want to ask your rookie first round pick to say, Hey, you're going to be snapping the ball now to a guy that you, you're doing a job that we didn't draft you for to begin with. And now you're snapping the ball to a guy that you have not really gotten any reps with. Oh, and we really need to win as many games as possible because it looks like the AFC is going to be as competitive as it's ever been this year. I think like you said, you want to protect yourself. You want to insulate yourself. And if you're Eric de Costa, and you know, I got the head coach I wanted. We took what looks like the absolute right sling on Declan Doyle as our first year offense of play collar. I might, I might have an MVP. I would have probably had a guy in the MVP race if he didn't have to miss games. And he might be so good when he comes back, and Lamar might be right back in that race again. And you're getting the most out of Zay flowers. Like you said, we are not going to risk anything stepping backwards with this offense if we have the opportunity to keep it where it's at. And I certainly as a GM, I'm not going to feel good with my 20, 28 second round pixing. Hey, this was worth maybe costing myself an opportunity to compete at the highest level when you have Lamar playing the way that he has over the first month. You have to do everything you can to get the most out of those seasons. And in 2024, when he was playing at this level, the defense wasn't very good. And now I think you have you should have enough confidence and optimism about the defense where we got to do everything we can to make sure we're capturing this season when Lamar is playing at this level because when he is, I think you're capable of pretty much anything. All right, let's get to your first one here. The one, the first thing you wanted to talk about that has been surprising or particularly notable to you four weeks into the season is what? I don't want to do too long of a preamble, but I think that you'll understand where I was coming from going into the season with Jacksonville, because I think that you guys had a few conversations about the Jaguars preseason as well, right? What's real coming out of their hot streak to end last regular season, right? My biggest thing is all of the things that would make you feel the best about the Jags, if you were a Jags fan over the last two months of last year and the first month of this year is all the stuff that we say does not stick year over year. Great turnover luck, explosive runs, converting third and longs in the passing game. Those are not things that are supposed to carry over from one season to the next, especially when you kind of stand pat with your roster. It's not like there was any major influx of new talent. They didn't do a bunch at the top of the draft. In fact, they got, you know, they were very heavily criticized for what they did do in the draft was bringing in, you know, Nate Berkerture and just like their approach to drafting tight ends as well in general, knowing where their offensive line has been kind of weak. So I 100% expected them with a pretty difficult opening season, to the season that hey, Trevor Lawrence is going to get hit more often. Some of the turnover luck might go the wrong way. I don't think that they're going to be one and three coming out of this stretch, but maybe there are two and two and we feel like, okay, they've kind of come back to earth. And no, they're still gangbusters. Every time they touch the red zone, to get the best red zone play calls and Trevor Lawrence is ripping throws in between defenders. They're still explosive in the run game. I do think that you've seen a little bit more contact on Trevor Lawrence now than you did last, you know, to end last season. I do worry a little bit about what that's going to look like over the course of the season. If he keeps hitting the ground as often as we've seen over the last couple of weeks, but for the most part, this defense is performing the exact same way it did in October, in November and December last year. And we're still looking at the same Jack's team that looks like a bus saw, you know, in the AFC. I can't remember a situation. I was trying to think of one as you were talking and just like trying to land on, okay, is there an example? And the reason I'm saying this is that one of the hesitations with the Jackson, I want to be clear, like I was excited about the Jacks coming into the season. We have the 10 teams at the table. The first two teams off would have been the Niners and the Jacks and they are now on there. And so I was very open to the idea that the Jacks could be a very good team this year. I just think I was in a mode where I want to see it again. And part of the reason for that, can you remember an example where we had one of these play calling offensive head coaches that was just clearly one of those dudes almost immediately when he got the job in the way the Liam Cohen has been. But that guy was paired with a first time, first year defensive coordinator that we'd never seen do it was very, very good, but doesn't have like an established track record of success because that was part of it. Like come, I'm willing to believe it. Like we had one year of Campanilla, let's see if just this whole group can do it again, and they clearly have shown an ability to do that because with the other guys like McVey obviously had the first season that he did with the Rams, but Wade Phillips was their defensive coordinator. Like we'd seen that Shanahan comes in the 17 season is kind of a wash for the Niners. And so that didn't happen immediately. I just think that the dynamics at play were unique enough and we had a just a lack of long term built-in equity with the main principal pieces that I really was just in a, Hey, what does round two look like? And they have come out and been like round two is going to be better than round one. You watch us. And that's exactly what this has been. Exactly. And again, like I just keep leading back on it's not like they brought in some all pro guy. They weren't the team that went out and traded for Jalen Waddle, right? Like they're not the team that went out and traded for AJ Brown. They didn't do any of that. They didn't spend two first to go get sauce gardener to add to the year. I'll push back on that a little bit. Do you know who the all pro player they traded for is Travis Hunter Travis Hunter. Right. Yeah. They traded. But a guy who's going to be an all pro corner this year potentially. Exactly. Like it just doesn't often work that way. Like you said with not just first year play callers, but a quarterback as well who was fresh off of a bottoming out. Right. Like I came out of the 2024 season. Like you know what? If it never happens for Trevor Lawrence, at least I can say I believed. All right. I gave it. I gave it. I gave it a good old college try. I don't have to go down with this ship any further. It's okay. We gave it a shot. And he turns right back around and you see a rhythm in his game that I would say never has existed for him in the pro. It's a great one. Over the last like three, three months. The confidence putting his back foot in the ground, driving the ball in between, you know, these closing passing windows to wide receivers that I didn't necessarily look at as being like, oh, these are great ball winners. These are great contested catch guys. These are going to be separators. These are guys that you can push the ball down field with. I think the scheme of the offense, the play of Trevor Lawrence. And then I just think the the rhythm that they're in you look at a guy like Parker Washington is like the ultimate manifestation of every the all of the work that they have done to build this offense to be as good as it is. And I would say defensively you're starting to see that with Travis Hunter. We saw this last year with Devin Lloyd at linebacker. You're seeing it with Josh Heinz Allen right now as a past rusher. Like you just see these little manifestations of like all the work they're doing is getting the maximal results right now. They have the ingredients of what a contending team feels like on a several different fronts. And the reason that the specific reason I say that in this moment is that they've shown an ability to kind of do different versions of things over the first month of the season. Like this is a really maybe random player to point out when making this point, but stick with me for a second. Brent the strange being like the fifth or sixth most important player on your offense is how you win super balls. Yes. Yes. With the way that he's been playing how important he would how well he plays within the role that they ask him to fill in the ball. Exactly right. And he may not be a featured piece of what you're doing weekend and week out. But if there's a moment where you're playing against the Bengals team who just seems to lose every single tight end that they play week over week, you're like, all right, this is going to be the featured guy in our passing game this week and we can do that. He's worth featuring in these specific moments. The offense has shown an ability to do that. It's multifaceted. And then on defense, you've seen flexibility and personnel in the back end that's given them answers to different problems. The idea that all right, well, we don't really know it's Travis a full time outside corner. Do we want to do that? And you're kind of playing around with him and Jerry and Jones and Montero Brown all in combination with one another and you're trying out all these different combos of players and like, does this is this the way that we should play? Even the ability to do that is a luxury that teams without that much depth depth and flexibility don't even get to explore. And I think that to me is what really good but also resilient contender worthy teams feel like where you can have the options, the mindset and the flexibility to kind of vacillate between these different versions of yourself and figure out what is best for that moment when what is best for the long run. And I think to me in combination with being just exceptionally well coached on both sides of the ball, that's what this version of the jacks feels like. Absolutely. You know, in you opened up this conversation with like just how often do we see things happen this way? I think that most times when it goes this way, it's because a team takes on such an extreme manifestation of a certain personality. in terms of how they play, right? You think of Miami when Mike Medanio gets there. You think of Sean McVeigh early in Los Angeles. You think of all of those teams. When I watch Jacksonville, there's really nothing extreme about what they do, right? Like they don't blitz more than any other team. They're not necessarily getting into cupboard shells and nobody else is playing. And offensively, is not like they're rolling out some type of personnel grouping that is, you know, melting the minds across the league. Sometimes I just watch them and I'm like, God, this feels like the best team in football at squeezing 16 yards out of a pass play when they want to get it. Like if they need to go get 18 yards in the seam, I don't know if there's a better team right now at designing a way to get Parker Washington, exactly 18 to 20 yards across the middle of the field. Urge Kobe Myers, exactly 14 yards when they need it. They are just extremely precise. Like you said, they can take on different personalities within a game. I think that just speaks to the field that Liam Cohen has as a head coach and play caller. And I think the same thing you would have to say since Anthony Campanile, like they're understanding of what their personnel is and how to get the most out of them is way beyond even the most aspirational case for them coming into these jobs last year. And I think that they're continuing to build on that without needing these ultra dynamic pieces, you know, young guys, outside of like a Travis Hunter, you know, that are just eye popping every time you watch them on the field. It speaks to coaching, execution and just how well they game plan on a weekly basis. I don't know if there's really anybody, maybe outside of like Kyle Shanahan right now, who is doing it better on the offensive side of the ball. Oh, I, I'd have a tiny bit of pushback after the way the last couple of weeks have gone over over here with the spec of quarterbacks, but I think that's fair. I think Liam Cohen is, I think Liam Cohen has shown that he is a member of the inner circle. That is what we have what he has done over the first month. It's funny you say that about the identity. So last point and a half, I want to make about this before we move on. The identity of the offense and the defense is just really well-constructed units on both sides of the ball that are an expression of the best modern ideas on both sides. Like the defense is just a combination of a lot of things that are working for different trees built into one thing where you're doing a little bit of all of it, but you're doing all of it well, which is really difficult to juggle and a company that has shown an incredible ability to do that. And on offense, it's just like, this is just the good shit right now. We're just doing the good shit right now in a way that is very well-constructed. And so that's not really a specific schematic identity. It's just good ball. That's what the chegs feel like. And then the last part, I think, in terms of how do you do this year over year, how do you feel like a different version of yourself? You need guys to rise and fall. We mentioned Travis Hunter as a joke. Anton Harrison feels like the player like that for them this year. Yes. And then when you stumble into guys in your rookie class, that's almost always an ingredient. A male pregnant has been such a win for them. That's it. And so think about the teams that have won Super Bulls over the last couple of years. Think about the 2025 C-Ox. Think about the 2024 Eagles. Cooper to Jean, Quinion Mitchell, Nicky Minwari, Grace Able, like you have to get a couple of these guys. And Travis Hunter almost feels like a rookie in that way, just because he is a new piece of this. So let's just say Travis Hunter is this year's first round pick. And then you get pregnant. And then everything else that's happening around it, where should you start to feel the ingredients that typically lead to this sort of team, getting all mixed together in Jacksonville. And it's an incredibly exciting place to be. All right, let's take our first quick break and then come back and hit a few more of these things that we found surprising. (upbeat music) We don't have to spend a ton of time in this next one 'cause I did kind of a loot to it. But what has surprised me or been striking to me is just how wide open this whole thing feels. Like it really is extremely exciting. And I think last year, it felt wide open in part because a lot of the blue bloods with the Elite Quarterbacks fell off. And this year that hasn't happened, right? A lot of the best quarterbacks in the league and the MVP caliber quarterbacks. Those offenses and teams have looked good so far. But all of those teams also feel flawed enough. And everyone else, there are other teams at the top that feel complete enough. Like the Jags team that we just talked about, where now the teams with those MVP quarterbacks and everyone else is just kind of smashed into this top 10 to 12 that is just incredibly compelling. Like right now, the top eight teams in DVOA, total team DVOA are the Niners, Jags, Chiefs, Bills, Ravens, Seahawks, Rams and Chicago Bears. Let's take the top seven of those teams and have a conversation. Those are the teams I would have expected to be there. Like again, I think the idea that the Jags and Niners are there isn't necessarily surprising. But you look at that top seven and like any of those top seven teams can tell themselves very legitimately, we think we can win the Super Bowl this year. And even other teams like, I think the way the Cowboys offense is playing, like it just feels like so many, at least 10, maybe even a dozen teams by the time we get to mid season. If they continue in this form or even a slightly better version of it as we get a little bit more time on task, are gonna be able to tell themselves, we legitimately think we can be the best team in the league or the most dangerous team in the league by the time the season is over. And it's not because other teams have fallen off. It's because we have enough to get ourselves there. And it's an awesome place to be. I mean, it just makes the entire, it makes the prospect of the rest of the season unbelievably intriguing. And so, but it is surprising. It's still just one of those things where it still feels new that we have this many teams that we feel good about to that degree. But right now I think it'd be hard to argue against it. - 100%, I mean, and doing the power rankings for the ringer, I just put up one from the first quarter of the season and in trying to stack the teams. There are so many times where I was like, I actually need to redo my one through 32. Like I'm not resetting my entire, all the copy on this, but I actually need to ask myself, do I think that this team that's ranked ahead of them can beat this team? And then now I'm just down this rabbit hole of, well stylistically, this team could do this and it will be a problem for them. I can 100%. - Yes, so way too many times if you're thinking of it that way. - 100%, 100%, you know? And this is not, a lot of times I feel like people come out of like the first month of the season and they're like, oh, you know, X amount of teams can legitimately look at themselves as a playoff team or contender. And it almost feels dishonest, right? 'Cause you're trying to extract so many small slivers of information to make you believe in one team or the other. I genuinely went through like the top 20 to 22. And even though very flawed teams, you look at teams like the Packers, you think about teams like Houston, you think about teams like the Chargers who, you know, have been about as bad as you can be for a team that was expected to be a contender. And I still feel like I think under the right circumstances maybe they're not super bowl contenders, but think of what 100% ruin another contender season under the right circumstances, right? Like, and that is a rarity. And that is a rarity for any season. I would say especially in one, like you said, where there are an elite class of quarterback that are around and they're not hurt. Their teams are not falling apart. We still are looking at teams that may not have access to that type of top tier play at the quarterback position and looking at them and saying, we still have to take them seriously. I really enjoy a season that can give that to us this early in it and we're not just discarding teams. And now we're spending the next three months talking about the same, you know, half dozen, you know, squads, all the rest of the way through. I think there are gonna be plenty of teams that force themselves into that conversation. Like teams, like we didn't mention the Bengals, like the Bengals defense is improved enough for they'll probably be relevant. And then I joked about the Bears, but I think that Bears are actually a good example of this. If you watch what that team is doing offensively and you imagine what it's gonna look like potentially with Caleb Williams back. And I know there's been a little bit of like, oh man, the backup quarterbacks look great. What does that mean about Caleb Williams? The only time we saw him not against Brian Flores in a rainstorm this season, the team scored 59 points. So if you're the Bears, or if you're a Bears fan and you look at the way the defense has been playing and who knows where it settles, but it's been better than you expected. And you look at the ceiling on offense, I don't think it's unreasonable for you to be one of those teams at fan bases that's like, well, why can't we do this? Like are we any more flawed than some of these other teams are because the teams that were supposed to be super teams, the Rams are still very good, but have their issues. The bills offense looked unbeatable for two weeks. It's taken a fall back down to earth over the last two weeks and their defense has struggled in the first month of a new coordinator. We talked about Baltimore. The Ravens are a little bit banged up. I still think right now they might feel like the most dangerous team overall at full strength, but they're not a perfect team by any stretch. The chiefs have an argument as to be the best team in the league so far, but I still have concerns about their pass catching options and just what that team looks like in a world where they can't lean on the run to the degree that they have, like everybody has issues. The Niners are number one in DVOA. They've been top five on offense and defense. They look incredible, but what is that defense in the long run, like how much faith do we have in that? And so the teams that have looked really, really good, I still think have enough potential issues where if you're one of those teams on the fringes of the top 10, I don't think it's crazy for you to start talking yourself into the idea that maybe we could kind of force our way into the conversation over the course of this year. - Yeah, absolutely. - All right, what's your next one here? Your next thing that has jumped out to you so far over the first month of this season. - So I kind of cheated and joined two together, and I think, and a lot of it is just because I expect knowing how we podcasts will probably end up rope in a bunch of different coaches into this topic, but coming out of the Sunday night game where I am watching the Panthers just, [BLANK_AUDIO] absolutely mall Detroit's defense, right? Like, and it's not just that game, because you can obviously look at that in a one game sample and hey, Detroit's defense is just kind of lost right now in the mix of their identity versus the players they do and don't have available. I think it's fair to critique it from that perspective, but you look at them over the course of the season, they've played a lot of really good offense. You guys, you know, specifically, we're talking about Bryce Young in his response to having Brad Idzick as his play collar and they're approach thematically versus how he's performed. I've walked out of the first month of the season feeling great about their offense in a way that I did not expect, given the injuries to their offensive line and the questions I had about whether or not they'd be able to sustain a running game that could protect Bryce Young. And then on the other hand, I look at a team like Denver and Davis Webb and I'm like, you want to talk about having all the equipment you could possibly need to field a great offense, but maybe the best collection of offensive linemen in the league right now. You've got a head coach who, if you're borrowing from his scheme, has got every tool in his offensive playbook to be able to handle things. You've got a ball-winning wide receiver in Courtlandside and you've got a field stretcher in Jalen Waddle. You've got Pat Bryant as this kind of like, you know, breakout potential breakout piece as a receiver who can kind of flex inside and out. And you're watching them play the 49ers and I'm like, why is it this freaking hard for you to complete a pass more than 10 yards down the field? I don't necessarily want to lay all of that blame on web shoulders. I think there's a conversation I have about both him and Bonix, but just looking at the dichotomy and those two as play callers, given what you would have thought about their rosters entering the league. My mind has been kind of blown in the difference in how they've performed over the last few weeks. I think just bucketing the new play callers period into guys that have been maybe better or worse than we thought. That's full plenty of surprises. I was excited to see what it could do. I just, I think somebody mentioned this before recently because we were talking about Bryce Young and they were like, you guys had the panthers so low in the supporting cast rankings coming into the year. And I think part of that is just questions about the offensive line. But also part of it is that either it was the quarterback or just the entire environment offensively. I kind of feel like we had just run into a dead end with like what this version of the panthers was going to feel like and I just couldn't have been more wrong about that. Like the schemas felt more alive and the quarterback has done. It's also a reminder of how impossible it is to fully extricate quarterback play from everything else. Like you try to do it as best as you can. But in reality, the quarterback is going to make the supporting cast look better while the supporting cast makes the quarterback look better, play caller included. And so the way that Bryce has played, I think reframes how you also see everything else, whether that's right or wrong. But it's it has been great. The guy on defense that I think has probably been the most impressive defense of play caller among all the new guys is Rob Leonard. How many Rob Leonard conversations was anybody having coming into the season? Declan Doyle has been phenomenal. Tommy Reese in over the last two weeks has been really impressive. We'll talk about Atlanta. I think Mike Rootberg and Brian Flurry have been good in the way I might have expected them to be like those guys with their situation, the personnel, what I expected those offenses to look like. That was probably expected. But then you've had guys that I was really excited about where the results just haven't been there so far. Like we'll see what happens with Christian Parker in the Cowboys. It's still very early. They've been really banged up with injuries. But that has been, they have a lot of way to go. They have a lot of way to go, not good at all. And the other guy I throw in there like I was wondering how quickly Jim Leonard could get the bills defense to a place where that unit felt championship caliber. And again, it's so early. Like there's no reason to make definitive statements about any of this stuff. But the bills are 26th and defensive TVOA over the first month. Like that unit will need to be better if the bills want to get where they're going. And so it's been a mixed bag with a lot of the first year guys, where I think some people that had some name recognition or had some heat coming into it, just haven't been as good as we might have expected. And some guys that maybe it kind of fallen into the background a little bit in all the preseason discussions we were having have been some of the biggest hits among that group so far. Absolutely. And I think that when I think about Brad Isaac as kind of like the headliner for me of the guy that I've walked out of the first month of the season feeling the most encouraged about. And we talked about this a little bit with Liam Cohen and his just understanding of the team that he's gotten how to get the most out of it. It was very easy. It would have been very easy for others. And I certainly felt this way as well. When he's talking about, hey, man, as a head coach, I've got a million other things that I've got to manage. I can't be in Bryce Young's ear the way that I need to be in it. His quarterback coach, the guy that's already in the room with them talking to him, knows what he likes, knows what he doesn't, knows how he feels about different play calls as they come in, how to build a rhythm within the game. He would just be more connected with him than I will. That is 100% been born out, right? Like you think about the RPOs. You think about the use of personnel for them. Think about the answers that they've built in. How they've leaned into when to attack the middle of the field with Bryce Young and how versus how to set up easy opportunities for him and Technic Millen outside the numbers. That's something you can only get by really understanding the fact that putting the play sheet to somebody else's hands is not only going to help me as a head coach, but there is actually a chance that we can get even more out of this offense. And I didn't walk out of last year feeling like there was anything wrong with the way Dave canales was calling the O. In fact, because of what I felt about Bryce Young at that time, I thought running the ball on early downs is as much as possible, getting in these hyper condensed, heavier personnel groups on early downs, really trying to protect your quarterback. And then getting a spread out as you can in obvious passing situations and trying to give Bryce Young something that looked a little bit more like what he was used to at Alabama when he was in college was the best kind of two personality mix to their O. This year feels more cohesive. It feels like they've kind of added some of those more spready elements with their heavy personnel. And you're just seeing a better version of Bryce Young because some of those marriages are happening. David Swell, we've kind of touched on whether or not it's him or Bonix. To me when I look at him and Nix, I do think there's a menu of calls that Nix is just going to struggle to maximize. And there's also the you can't establish a run thing which really predates him as a play caller. And then you look across the league and it's kind of like similar conversations in different spots. Sean Manion, same thing. You're here really to fix the run game so that way you could get the most out of your play action passing game with Jalen Hertz. Could not be more opposite. In fact, it feels like every week that goes on, it is less of whatever they hire Sean Manion to do and more of what Nick Seriani has gotten out of his offense on a year to year basis. I think that that's pretty telling. You know, you mentioned Rob Leonard. And I think that Derek was talking about it maybe last week or two weeks ago before they played the chiefs. Were you watching? It's like, did they just play good football? I don't. I don't remember. It reminds me a lot of how we talked about the jugs. I've said that all season, but it reminds me a lot of how we were talking about the Jags defense over last season where again, it's not like one specific magic bullet thing. And I do think that so far, the Raiders defense has been rooted in a lot of like the Seattle ideas in a more specific way than maybe what the Jags defensive philosophy was last year, but it's still a mix of enough stuff in his background where it's not like one magic bullet thing of like, oh, this is why the Rob Leonard defense works. It's just like, no, it's just good shit in the same way that we've been talking about the Jags for the last year. Absolutely. You know, and, you know, we talk about Declan Doyle doing the same thing, right? And that was actually more of a person. I wouldn't say necessarily a personality change because Todd Monco was trying to lean more into the heavier personnel while he was there before he left for Cleveland, but really leaning into all the things that were working in Chicago in terms of having multiple tight ends, right? I had a lot of questions about whether or not that was the right way to go about building this offense is bringing in a bunch of young guys. We're going to be unproven. You're bringing in Matt Hibner. I don't even know what that's. You got to believe that Hibner. You know, like, I had no idea what we were going to get out of this. And then you're watching the first quarter then play the Colts and it's like, ah, got it. I see what you are. I know exactly what I'm looking at right now. Okay. We're good. You know, so I think that there there's a lot around the league. I would say Brian Flurry has kind of been in that same mix of a guy who just seems to have a really well tailored understanding and execution of I know where my best player is and how to feed him the ball. And I know how to build an offensive ecosystem around that to keep our targets for Jackson Smith and Jigba as explosive as healthy and as effective as possible. I've become a way really I think really encouraged by guys that I just had no feel for when we came into the season. That that has probably been the biggest surprise for me. I'm with you. I think that that's the right way to look at it. The Idzig Davis Web thing is interesting because like you said, I didn't come away from the last year thinking, Oh man, like Dave Canalis is mishandling how he's calling the offense and how what the offense looks like. But I do think that when you look back to it and obviously this is hindsight, but when you look back at it, you did feel a play call or that maybe didn't fully believe in what his quarterback was capable of and the offense was getting called that way. And when you have and it's not, again, it's not like I don't think he explicitly was like, I don't think that was unfounded, right? Like I could understand landing in that place if you were Dave Canalis, but it just is a reminder of how much these little tiny things matter where when you have a guy and Idzig come in and be not even slightly deterred by whatever limitations the quarterback might have and just think that he's capable of anything. And it's also the way the offense has been built this year in Carolina. There is such intention behind pulling in things that might seem mismatched into one cohesive vision in order to maximize the quarterback. That to me feels like an offense built by an architect who believes in the quarterback. Like you're not going to try to take Taylor it in that way where you're trying to do give him everything he can to be successful. If you don't believe in what the ceiling of it could look like, it felt like last year the Panthers were calling and constructing the offense to get by. And I don't even mean that as a negative where this year it feels like they're calling and constructing the offense because they believe the quarterback when you give him all the tools can play at this sort of level. And I compare it to what's happening in Denver and it kind of feels like the offense is being I thought Derrick's point about this was so good on the Sunday night show. Where Bo Nick's I think has most of the culpability in the offense feeling this way. But if you are the play caller at a certain point, aren't you going to get beaten down by some of the choices he's making and then no longer call the offense thinking that he's the type of quarterback that can lift it. And now you're back in a place where you're more, more worried about the floor and creating an acceptable level that for this thing to operate on. It feels like that. It feels like the Broncos are operating in the world that the 2025 Panthers did. And the Panthers have completely broken out of that world. Well, and I wanted, I will go back another season and say when I watched Denver, they remind me, at least offensively, they remind me so much of the 24 Eagles offensively over the first four weeks. I remember he bringing Kevin Moore next day when Hertz comparison, we were never escape him. We will never escape him. But I remember Kela Moore comes in, he's trying to be much more ambitious with the passing game. We want to push the ball down. Field more. We want to put more in the quarterbacks plate to understand when he's going to be hot and where these options, where these different options are. And the office just absolutely fell flat on his face in the first month. And then they had that by week, right? And I think that that's the story has been told enough where Jordan Milada and Lane Johnson basically, kind of corner, you know, in this area, he and Kela Moore and say, we're not doing that anymore. Okay? Us guys, the big guys over here, let us carry the way, the rest of the way. And I think that my concern with Denver is that they don't have a Sequan Barclay who can lead the league in rushes of 60 and 50 in 40 yards, the way that they did in 2024. So I think that there is going to come a point where if you're Davis Webb, you have to really kind of do some soul searching and figure out, how can I manufacture it? And I think that that really is the adjective that you'd have to use if you're Davis Webb. How can I manufacture a healthy offense knowing that I can't guarantee we're going to get the chunk gains that my play calling would otherwise try to go find for our own. It's a really difficult way to live, especially when you know how talented the supporting cast around your quarterback can be when they're at their best. I don't really know how they're going to square that circle because there just are too many times in a game. And I think I've talked back and forth with Derek about this. I think we probably chatted about this with Bonyx as well. We're just watching tape and you're like, this isn't even hard. I'd understand if we were asking you to do some very difficult things, you have the arm and the throws are there. And if you don't make the throws, what the hell do you want me to do with this offense, buddy? It's really hard to run an offense under that when a quarterback is turning down decisions that would be the health, not only the healthiest and most ambitious, but in a lot of times you really shouldn't have any other option but to take some of these shots to open receivers. It really is crazy watching how distinct the differences between an offense where the quarterback feels compelled to show that sort of ambition and one that doesn't. It's just it's an immense difference. And I think that you have felt that difference between both the Panthers and Broncos offenses this year for two quarterbacks who I think both were kind of at a crossroads in terms of what we needed to see from them. Like this was the year for both of them with nicks, it was we're in year three, we just traded for Jayman Waddle. You're in the same system. We're building on this. We're giving you the play call or you probably want show me what you got and we've seen the results so far. And there's been a lot of the same stuff with Bryce young people didn't want them to pick up the option. And after they did, it was like, all right, what are you going to show us as you're sitting here wanting a contract extension and it's been the exact opposite set of returns so far. All right, let's take one more quick break and then come back and hit a couple more of these. I don't want to spend a ton of time on this one because we talked about it ad nauseam. But I don't think you can do this show in good faith and not talk about the fact that the chargers have been the biggest flaming disaster and disappointment in the entire league. And why I want it. Yeah, we have to, right? And but I actually, I've talked about this so much. You live in San Diego, right? You have been your proximity to this team is very real in a ways that probably aren't good for your long term health as you've watched them this year. What have your impressions been, not of like why it isn't working. I think we've talked enough about why it isn't working, but what it means that it's not working to this extent. I think that the question I keep coming back to is, who does it say the most about, right? Like, does this say the most about Mike McDaniel? Does this say the most about Justin Herbert? Does it say the most about Jim Harbaugh and where he's at in his career? And I think maybe the most unsatisfying answer is that it does feel right now at least like it's pretty evenly split because the things that go wrong, you can point in every all three directions and say, this is because of a decision that ex person made. This is because of a play called this guy made is because of a decision on the field that Justin Herbert made. It all just kind of seems to be going already in a way that makes it hard to really kind of distill it down to like, oh, it's just because Mike McDaniel is calling these sets of plays or is mixing his use of the running backs in this way or change Justin Herbert's footwork or the timing on his throws, but that's incomplete, right? That's incomplete over four weeks now. If it were any just one of those things, I would like to believe that there are enough smartphone ball people in that building, right? That you could identify that and make it and fix it relatively quickly. It's all of it, right? It genuinely is all of it. And I think that over the next month of the season, I think that that's really where my focus is on is, can we get more clarity on whether or not their failures in September was a bigger reflection on any one of those three characters? I think that's really kind of where I'm trying to hone in on. My problem with that is you can't pull apart the Mike McDaniel thing from the Jim Harbaugh thing. Right. It's impossible. It's impossible to do. And so I think that is why at the end of the day, I probably land on Harbaugh more than anything else. And I'm willing to admit this. This is, there's confirmation bias associated with this year because of how I view the coaches I would hire, the coaches, I would chase all of this stuff. We are reaching a critical moment with the CEO coach. We are approaching a critical moment with why we seek these guys out, what they're offering, what the argument is as to why these are the types of people you should hire to run your football organization. The argument about the Jim Harbaugh's of the world, the Harbaugh's of the world period is that this will create a certain floor for the organization. But if that's the argument and the floor falls out of it, which is entirely possible, we saw it happen with Peacarole a year ago, why is that the argument? Like why are you trying to establish a certain floor when we now have plenty of evidence that that floor is not a guarantee? And I don't even understand that being the argument. Like to me, it's more about if I have a coach on one side of the ball, like the Niners floor is established by what Kyle Shanahan can build out of the offense. Like I don't think floor is established by, and this may be true, but do we really think that floor is established by some nebulous understanding of like physicality and culture? Like I think it kind of is, but we don't have that, I mean, I don't want to be flipping in a dismissive of that as an idea. Like football is built on those ideas. Like I embrace that, like I understand that, you need to have guys to buy into that. This is not an exosynos chalkboard game, but we don't have enough evidence that the exosynos guys are any worse at creating physical talent, physical like bought in football teams than some of these guys who walk in the door where that's the thing they're built to be. And so if we're not getting that in abundance from those guys compared to the exosynos coaches, why are we still doing this? I mean, it's one of the argument for these guys. It's one of those things where like it's necessary, but not sufficient in 2026, man. That's where I'm at. And that's just what it is. It's necessary, but the other guys are no less capable of giving you that necessary physicality. Like it's not exactly. There's so many examples of this recently, like Ben Johnson's a fucking hard ass. Like think about what, think about what the evidence we have of the way that Mike McDonald was able to get these guys to play. Like the guys that are playing like this that have edge are just as often coming from like the supposedly nebish nerd coaches as they are from these guys who are like these supposed to be big football dudes. Like I just you look at it's harder. I mean, he had it in his building. He had it in his building with Jesse mentor, like you listen to Jesse mentor talk. And like you said, he comes across like every offensive coordinator that gets teased for being one of the, you know, the buddies of the pencil pushers. And then you watch his defense is play in Los Angeles. And it's like they will put six or seven DBs on the field. And they are still dinting people's face masks when they try to run at them. So it is. is not, we can't treat it like it's a zero sum proposition or it's a one or the other thing. And I'd like to believe knowing Mike McDaniel's history with Kyle Shanahan and his commitment to trying to run the football not only in the smartest way, but in a way that gets his big people on your little people in a way that's going to hurt your little people. I would like to believe that he has not lost the ability to do that or his understanding of how to mix that in with, hey, sometimes we just got to be downhill and just punch a team in the mouth, right? I don't think that that's lost on any of the people in the building, but it does come back to what you said, like, as Jim Harboff, you're going to be the CEO type, then you have to come out of each one of these weeks with a new directive of what it's going to mean for your offense to look like the most physical team to look like you have an edge, to look like you can keep your quarterback upright. We have not seen that once this season, right? And certainly, and if we've seen it, it hasn't been for more than like a four or five play sequence, right? You get these great opening scripts where you can tell people have poured over the film to put together the best way to get you down the field as quickly as possible. And then as the flow of the game comes, goes along, you're sitting here looking like this could not possibly have been the best ideas that the combination of Jim Harboff and Mike Medaniel could have left a week's worth of practice with. Like this just can't be the case. And if that, if that's how I feel after a month consistently of watching this team, who else's feet doesn't land on but the head coaches. And then I think that we have to extend that conversation. Maybe the Joe Hortis is a GM, right? And all the promises made of what the offensive line situation would be and how it was going to express itself out on the field and what it was going to do for Justin Herbert. He did not forget how to be a good quarterback who can make every throw. You can watch the second half of their loss to the Seahawks and see that he did not lose his ability to throw some absolute his missiles when he needs to. It's just clearly there's some sort of breakdown in philosophy and execution and approach on a week to week basis that I don't, maybe I just did not appreciate enough when I was going up and watching them at training camp in minicamp because it didn't seem like this team was very far away in the way that they are when they're on the field now. I don't think they thought they were very far away. I think this is probably been shocking to a lot of people in the building, even as shocking as it's been to people out of the building. The last thing I'll say about the coach archetype thing is that I do have like a half joking working theory that you should just hire Jack nerds McVeigh, McDonnell Ben Johnson's is my play call or like very smart and very good. Yes. Is he also jacked? Yes. Like that's it. Like those, they just hired Jack nerds to be your play calls. It's not a perfect theory, right? Like Liam Cohen isn't yoked. Like Kyle Shanahan, I don't think spends an hour in lifting weights every single day. But there are enough of them now and it started to build where I have a working theory that's coming along. I like this. I like this. I like using jacked as like, I'm trying to glean just enough of your personality by your insane dedication to your physical physique, knowing that you don't need it to be good at your job. I think that that says a lot about who you are as a human being. I think it's a discipline thing too, right? I think it says something about the discipline necessary to like have to work out that way and fit it into your schedule on top of everything else. I'm only half kidding about this. Like I actually do think that there is something here. We joked about Brian Flurry early in the year when I said he looked like a defensive line coach and to me it does not surprise me that Seattle looks really good on offense when I look at a guy at a podium that looks like that. That looks like somebody who is about two things looking great and smashing your face in a run game. Okay. Everything else seems very optional in his life. All right. So among the most disappointing things about the league this season and just in terms of pre to competitive recent expectations, the Chargers offense and the Chargers period are probably number one. I think you can make an argument that the Texans defense after the way that last week went is probably also in that discussion. They weren't as bad. They haven't been as bad all year as they were against the Cowboys. I just want to be very clear about that like the down to down numbers are still pretty good. But those issues are still surprising and that is one of the things that you wanted to dig into. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you watched the tape and it's like it's they did not change who they are personality wise. They're not there. And it's not like Philadelphia at the top of this conversation when we were talking about, Hey, if you're in the Eagles fan, you're trying to tell yourself to certain things were regress defensively and you'll get more pressure on the quarterback and certain things will start to happen for you. You'll still be able to play these light boxes and stop the run. You watch Houston's front four and they still look like the goddamn monsters. Daniel Hunter and Will Anderson are still unblockable. I would say that Will Anderson is probably playing the best football of his life over the first month of the season. He is an absolutely unbeatable freak of nature type again this year. And you're just watching what's happening on the back end. And it's literally every problem that seems like they're having right now, typified all the ways that they were better than the rest of the league in coverage because they never made these mistakes. These to never have these communication breakdowns on where one guy's running across their answer and a safety doesn't pick him up, right? And now CD lamb gets an easy 30 yard completion over the middle of the field. They never had these issues in stacks and bunches where, hey, guys can just run out free access into the flat and go get you nine yards on first and 10. That's not how you would beat the Texans defense. It used to have to be a whole lot more of an effort to try to find these open windows in the passing game. And obviously, I think Sunday, like you said, it was probably the worst that they've looked all year, maybe not having a Ziz al-Shayir had a little bit of an influence on that. I'm open to the idea that it was, I think that there's a lot of credit. You can give to Brian shot and Heimer and that offensive staff for putting together a game plan that really muted the impact that Derek Stingley could have on the game while also attacking all the other ways in which that defense can be vulnerable on the back end. I thought they did an excellent job of being committed to attacking the guys they needed to attack and avoiding the guys they needed to avoid. But these are just it's simple stuff. It's tomorrow. Last year, not being a liability. It's read blank and ship, not being a liability in coverage. Maybe that's where you need to start and it's unsatisfying. I think if you're a fan, just hearing that guys got to play harder guy, that'll play better. Right. It is unsatisfying. But they don't have to change their cover shells. They don't have to change their approach. I don't think they've just got to be in better tune with one another and some of those second half breakdowns with passing interference calls and losing those 50-50 opportunities. I feel like there is something to get turned around that's not going to take a lot of effort. It has just been a shock to me to watch a defense that I harrowed as one of the most disciplined, one of the smartest while also being able to play a relatively simple football game, not being able to do so knowing how good the players are across their defensive roster. News just came across while we were recording. Demiko Ryan said that he's taking back play calling duties for the defense, which I, that's just not the type of thing. You expect that type of thing from units that maybe you thought might flounder early in the season, right? Right. Like that's the desperation coaching staff playbook is that well, it's not working, so we're going to change the play collar. That happens all the time. I didn't expect the Texans defense a month into the season to be one of the units that was playing those hits and that's where we are right now. And I think it's necessary, right? Like I'm not, I'm actually not mad at it if I'm to me go Ryan's like, you need something to change. Like even if it's not a mad bird did a great job last year, if it's not, even if it's not all Mac Berks fault, at this point, you're own four, your seasons on life support, something probably has to happen. If I'm Demiko Ryan's, if we fail this year, it's not going to be because CJ Strattles lights out and my defense couldn't get a goddamn stop into second half, it can't, we can't go out like that, right? So I 100% appreciate and respect the idea that like we are going, if we're going to go down on our sword, we're going to go down with the thing that got me this job in the first place and that was me calling excellent defenses in San Francisco. So I can respect that and I wouldn't be surprised and it may be assuming it's going to be one of those causation versus correlation things, I would not be surprised at all. If over the next month of the season, we see things start to tighten up a little bit on the back end, just knowing his detail and coverage, his detail in the approaches to structuring their coverages, to having answers to different formations, knowing what offenses want to do to you and being able to take away your opponent's best player. Those are all the things, even when he didn't have the best players on the back end in San Francisco, they were able to achieve year over year, I wouldn't be shocked at all if they're able to get back to that over the next month to two months of the season. The last surprising thing that we wanted to talk about is something that there was the only one that both of us had in our list is the Atlanta Falcons. The Atlanta Falcons, I think, and I made it as broad as possible because I think on both sides of the ball, this is worth bringing up. What the offense has looked like over the last two weeks since Panic's got back, but we hit this on our Monday night recap and I'll be curious, your thoughts about it. I'm just so impressed by what the defense looks like, the amount of guys that aren't playing for this team, both guys we knew about coming into the year, but even in season injuries, we didn't even mention this in real time when we were doing the Monday recap. So Darius Smith played like two snaps if I like two snaps in that game. So one of their like de facto starters on the defensive line just out for the game and it didn't matter. The defensive line still control this entire thing. And so for the defense to look as good as it has. And the other guy we didn't mention on that show that I think is worth mentioning, which would be why they're how they're playing and the way the defensive front is playing. Nate Alley is their defensive line coach. He is of this system. He was the cold defense of line coach, but he was in Houston before he came to the Falcons. And the Falcons, even if their system is a little bit more blended because of the personnel that they've had over the last couple of years, the defense of front specifically is still rooted in four down attack, Jim Schwartz, Jim Lashburn type stuff. And so he comes from that world they're playing. that way. And so just really everything about the way the Falcons have looked over the last couple weeks and how just staggeringly good and above their maybe expectation, both the offense and defense are playing. They're absolutely to me one of the surprises of this season, even if it's only been a two week sample that we've really understood how good they are. I mean, the defense really is where I think we should start because they are somehow second in the league behind the Vikings in quarterback hits. You could not have told me under any circumstances, they could have ran cover zero every snap and I would not have believed that they would have they would get through the first month of the season being second in quarterback hits. As long as you was watching, it's like their guys just play with their hair on fire, man. Like they can they can run some decent stunts. I think they did especially I would say against Green Bay on Thursday night, you know, a couple of weeks ago. I thought they did a really good job of trying to show pressure in certain spots, really trying to manipulate protection. So there's definitely some thought going in there with Jeff Overing and being able to kind of set up guys to be able to get easy 101 opportunities where they can go attack. But a lot of this is just brand and doorless just being a great hand fighter, you know, a lot of it is just their edge rushers are constantly crushing pockets moving towards the quarterback, getting the hell off the ball and affecting plays that way. And I think we saw this last year a little bit on the back end and it's another and it's really where things tie together. They were able to get a lot of their rookies last year in terms of forcing turnovers taken away passing windows and they play aggressively. This is not, hey, we're just going to play a bunch of quarter quarter halves and our safeties are just getting the hell out of there. And we just never want to get beat over the top. They're sitting on routes when they can, right? They're driving on passing windows when they can and trying to go get their hands on the football. It's probably I think outside of some of the other things we talked about so far today. Over the last two weeks, I would say that their defense has been one of the stories of this season in terms of getting the most out of what we expected to not be very much on the other side of the ball. It just feels like Michael Pinnix being back gives him an opportunity to do something that I think Kevin Stefansky has always done well and maybe we just didn't he just didn't have the talent to be able to maximize it knowing stylistically what you need out of your passing game to maximize your quarterback skill set. There are times where I watch Atlanta and I'm like, who did this guy work for again? Because I feel like I'm watching the air core L, right? Like you've got a bunch of routes that are 18 to 25 yards deep breaking across the middle of the field. Michael Pinnix has got max protection and he's just ripping the ball and it's it's impressive to me that Stefansky and Tommy Reese were able to step in really not knowing what version of Michael Pinnix ever even going to get because of how banged up he was all off season. But clearly having enough presence of mine to say his skill set is X and we can get into these certain things in our playbook with Drake London with their use of tight ends to be able to get him clean pockets and give him opportunities to aggressively attack down the field. And all of that is possible, not just because of their play calling, but obviously don't want to leave out the effect that Bajan Robinson has on every defense and what you have to account for with him on a down to down basis. What they've done off front with a run game. It's just such a cool example of how run game quality and even like offensive line and overall schematic quality can also be impacted by the back. Well, they're the best example of this where I think that and it's it really kind of flies in the face of how we talked about running back value for a very long time. And to me, this is like the best example on the other side of it where if the running back is often a product of the situation in the environment you place him into it inherently limits the value of that player. But then when you watch the Falcons play, he makes the it's like the way that his his ability to set things up the pace that he plays with like that combination blocks are more effective when Bajan Robinson is the running back because of the timing he plays with in order to set those things up, then they might be for a back who can't play that way. And so you want to give some credit to like, oh, well, look what Bill Callahan and the offensive line and all those guys are doing and they're really giving him these opportunities. And then you watch the plays unfold. And it's like, well, yeah, it's it's all well constructed. But at the same time, he's making everything else work better. It's just and I know this this can happen with running backs. It's not the first player that's ever felt this way. But it's the most obvious example of it that I can possibly remember. Like I think that we've had backs that transcend the situation that you put them in and show the value because of that. But I think most of the backs who you can credibly say that about are doing it at the end of place, right? It's the Derek Henry's. It's the Sei Kwan Barkley's where what they're containing. Yeah. Jonathan Taylor is a great example where what they're getting is if the play is blocked for six, they're getting you 80. And that's where you feel the gap between those players on the rest of them. Bajan is not like that. Like it's, I guess Levy on Bell would probably be the best recent example of like backs we talk about this way. We talk about this way. But he's even better at it. Like what he's doing is an even more refined just exaggerated example of that exact same idea. And it's just watching it happen in real time. It's kind of like it's head spinning but in a very cool way where it's just like I'm trying to figure out how this is all happening. And I know the hand he has in it. But I still don't fully understand exactly how to feel about it or how to articulate it. Well, and it's what she said, right? It's the fact that we just don't often put running backs in that type of context, right? It's much easier to talk about quarterbacks in that way, right? Like you can watch from our Jackson a very clearly see he can turn bad protection in a good protection with his legs. Josh Allen can do the same thing with his legs. We've definitely seen Patrick Mahomes do this often with his legs. When you watch Bajan Robinson, it's not necessarily that things are blocked up poorly, but all of a sudden just a fine. You need to still get to a certain baseline level, but after that baseline level, he's the one that's accelerating everything. And you know, living on Bell, just somebody you mentioned, you know, I don't think that their run game was really not explosive. It's probably hard for people to conceptualize this way because a run game was an often explosive enough on a consistent basis. But I thought about Marshawn Lynch with those later Seattle offensive lines of being able to, hey, he can jump cut. He can dead leg. He can push, you know, bring his weight one way to the other. He can change directions in these ways where he can actually get his guard that extra six, seven inches that they needed to torque out this block to be able to finish this play in a way that most running backs can't. I would say maybe like Bajan Robinson and Kenneth Walker are probably like the two guys right now. I would say that are doing this on a level that just other running backs in the league aren't before before plays break big where they make things work, right? They make things work. The yards before contact are not an offensive line stat. They're a them stat and in everything they're doing after contact is also them as well. But even Walker is more of like a force of nature, physicality thing than it is with Bajan where he's reversing field after running into a wall and making guys miss. It's a miss tackles thing more than a he's lived Kenneth Walker's lifting the environment, but he's lifting the environment in a way that I think we've seen more often before and makes more sense than what Bajan is doing. Like I think that if you look at the numbers of the of the chiefs running game, Kenneth Walker is transcending what the situation he's being placed into. When you look at the actual physical examples on tape for the for the Falcons, Bajan Robinson is doing that in slightly different ways, but he's also somebody that can be a home run hitter, right? So he's doing the stuff that Marshawn Lynch was doing for the 2013 Seahawks and how he's lifting the quality of the offensive line, but he's also ripping off 60 yard touchdown runs in the way that these Jamal Charles was two years ago. Like it's it is. And honestly, maybe Jamal Charles is the best example. Like maybe Jamal Charles is actually the back we're trying to find here as we think about like what the combination of the stuff we're talking about in terms of running back nuance with that explosive ability. Like maybe that's actually the guy that we should be throwing out there, but the fact that you're having to like clamber back a decade into NFL history in order to figure out a guy who's affecting the game in the way that Bajan Robinson has. I think speaks to how rare of a player we're talking about here and what he's doing right now is the rarest of the rare. One hundred percent. That is all we've got for today. Deante, please tell the people where they can check out all of the wonderful stuff that you were doing these days. Working at the ringer. So Vaughnore's notebook comes out every Tuesday morning. We're typically looking at the all-22. I try to cover everything. This past look we did a lot of defensive stuff, but I'll cover the past game. I'll cover stuff in the run game. If you're a sicko and you want to see why something is or isn't working for your favorite team or for your team's rival, I can promise you we'll cover that. And we're doing power rankings, right? We kind of change the face of it. So every four weeks we'll do it. So it's a little more quarterly now than the other publications you do it weekly. But that means more in depth looks at what has happened during the season and then trying to spend things forward. And you can always find me yelling about either the Dodgers, the Eagles, or something else happening in sports on Twitter and Diate Lee FB. All right. We will be back tomorrow with the week five preview. Until then, appreciate Eiselsen. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time. (soft music)