The Most Intriguing Teams, Players, and Takes of the First Week-ish | Group Chat

Hello and welcome to Group Chat, I am Justin Verrier and joining me as always, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle Mann is not with us, DMP sick. Rob, I believe he had some bad gravy with his lamb. And if we've learned anything about the NBA, you need the gravy and the lamb in order to persevere. I'm so glad we started here. How long do you think Jalen Brown spent thinking of that sick burn slash how big was his writing staff that he employed to try to come up with that one? I want to know what specific research he did because he definitely did it. Of course. Like just going through a bunch of Dr. Seuss books. Did he have the harpist come and play in order to help him? Because you know how like classical music is supposed to, what was it, at a younger age, make you smarter or supposed to just help you think through things. There was definitely something going on there. Is that what you do to formulate takes as well? Or are you just sitting around listening? I mean, do you have your own personal harpist? Yes, but they only play death metal. It's a lot of Pantera. I mean, first of all, a harp cover of Pantera would go. And I think we should find that. We should upload it to Spotify immediately. This whole situation is so silly. It's so ridiculous. And yet we're just drawn to it like moths to a flame over and over again. Jalen Brown, we pretend we're better than this, but we're suckers for it, aren't we? We're actually going to talk about basketball, I promise, later in this podcast. But no, I'm glad that we started here because I think you're right. The two things that I kind of was thinking through this as it was unfolding was one, he was criticizing Tatum for being PR. You factored when he definitely rehearsed this entire thing. You don't just come up with, it's not beef, it's lamb, just off the top of your head. It's people who are struggling to come up with metaphors on a week-to-week basis. That doesn't just happen, let me tell you. The other part of this, though, is I think he was kind of right. That clearly what Tatum was saying, albeit mature, and I think the better response, he took the high road there. It sounded very much like what Brad Stevens had been saying and what Joe Mazzullo went. Which is like, let's focus on the good things that we did. This is all nonsense. It's about what we did together. Like, those things don't all line up so clearly unless there was a message coming from on down being like, this is how we're going to talk about this. In order to sidestep the truth, which is that we traded him probably in small part, some small part, because we didn't like him. All of that makes 100%, like, all tracks to me based on what we know of these people, based on the sequence of events. Also, as you're laying it out and these personality types, are you the Jalen Brown? And I'm the Jason Tatum of this podcast? Is that what we are? I'm so glad you went here because this was going to be what I pivot to next. As they were going through this, I'm like, there's no better comp for us and our dynamic than these two guys. And Kyle's our Paul George, like, you know, the sensible ball mover we bring in sometimes. I think this honestly is us. As much as I have been so resistant to the idea that everything at the ringer is the Celtics, unfortunately, we are the Celtics. So, in conclusion, Jalen Brown, 100%. 100% correct, but isn't appreciated enough that people are willing to listen to it. This episode is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. A perfect crime film, says the Daily Beast. John Turturro gives a career-best performance. Don't miss the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket, in New York. Turturro stars as an aging master pickpocket whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. Also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price, and Steve Buscemi. See the film. A film that the LA Times calls instantly classic. The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Opens only in theaters October 23rd in New York and Los Angeles nationwide October 30th. I guess that is one takeaway you could have. Another takeaway I would say you could have from the recent basketball events, and I have to ask you this as his number one hater. Justin, do you have any official comment on Luka dropping 52 and basically nuking the Jazz from orbit, just to be sure? Well, I remember saying that Luka Doncic was a very good basketball player, so I'm not surprised. When he has individual achievements like this, if anything. Did you say that? Actually, I think my take was very good basketball player, but he sucks to watch. Okay. All right. I don't enjoy the experience. And I don't think I'm alone in this, but the team is built in his image. Everything is working. He was also playing the Utah Jazz, which I think helps. But if Luka is the MVP at the end of this year, I wouldn't be surprised because everything is set up for him. As long as he's healthy, he's going to be productive. He's productive every season that he actually plays. He's going to be productive every season that he actually plays. I just wanted to see you hem and haw a little bit. I'm taking the hybrid, okay? I had my harpist come in and tell me what really matters in this life. And it's not getting caught up in the little details of Luka Doncic. I don't believe for a second that you will subscribe to that way of life. That's not the Justin or the Jalen Brown that I know. And so eventually we're going to get pulled right back into the muck. But I hope you do it in the most dramatic fashion possible on stage with all of our friends for our upcoming live show in Indianapolis. Could you make me that promise that? If you are going to get messy, could you do it for the public's entertainment? Well, why not do it for our live show this week in Minnesota? Look at that. Look at this synergy. Still pinging the ball despite all of our complications. All right. Two live shows coming up. One is next Tuesday in Minnesota. We're actually taking flights just tomorrow morning. So that's why we're recording a little bit earlier on Sunday. So the Varsity Theater. Tickets still available at TheRinger.com slash events. And then another one in Indiana. Minneapolis Hi-Fi Indy. We were there a couple years ago. Back again December 10th, I believe, as part of the NBA Cup. So go to Ringer.com slash events. All the details are there. And we will either have Kyle Mann in attendance or his corpse that we will, like, puppet around on stage to try to get some extra takes off. But, like, it's not a group chat with two. So we're going to have to figure this out one way or the other. Group chat colon intimate conversations. The real group chat is the friends we made along the way, a.k.a. the audience in attendance. That can pepper us with questions. But we're going to figure it out. That's right. One last bit of new business. Hey, Rob, do you like to learn? I feel like this is a trap question, but the answer is yes. Do you like to laugh? I do. Do you like basketball? Oh, I thought you were going to ask if I like to love. But also I do love basketball. Well, do I have the YouTube series for you? Because not only are we doing live shows on Monday. Uh, the YouTube, the hit YouTube series, basketball exclamation point explained is kicking off starring your guy right here, where we explain some pressing topics in the NBA in under 10 minutes or less. Can you explain to me what the first topic is on basketball exclamation point explained? Well, it's one of the biggest topics looming over this NBA, my friend. It is the second apron. So if you've ever wondered to yourself, what the hell is the second apron? What are his implications? What are the specifics? Find out on YouTube. Go to the ringer.com or is it youtube.com slash ringer NBA? That sounds right. Uh, and I do wonder that basically every day. What is the second aprons whole deal? And so I look forward to you telling me an excruciating detail and hopefully finally getting my arms around it. Okay. Well, let's get our arms around what's happened thus far in the NBA season. But first let's take a break. This episode is presented by Sam's club during the holidays. Everyone's in a club. The last minute gift givers club, the cool aunts club, the food coma. Club, whatever holiday club you're in. Sam's club is the club that helps you pull it off. Need to get a meal on the table in under two hours. Done shopping for the brands they want like Dyson and Lego without blowing your budget. Check and check. Sam's club helps you make the most of the holidays. Come join us. Sam's club. All right. We're five days into the NBA season. We're recording this midday on Sunday because as I mentioned, we've got some flights to catch. We've got some business to attend. So there's some of these games still ongoing. We're going to try to keep track of them as we're talking through them. But we brought to the table as we typically do around this time, one team, one player and one take a piece so we can get around the league and talk about some of the most intriguing things that are going on right now. All right. Why don't I go first with my first team? And that's the Houston Rockets, a team that I think what we were kind of iffy on going into this season, but I know a lot of people were higher on them, if only because the equation to get back to what they lost last season, particularly in the postseason was so simple. It's like, let's just get rid of the bullshit. Add Fred Ben Vliet in order to professionalize this. A couple of guys just lock in a little bit more. It seems like it's working this far because they're three and O rolling into Sunday and three, I would say pretty good wins. The Mavs, we'll see how good they end up being, although they have pushed a lot of good teams, the Spurs, the Pacers in particular, even though they didn't have Cooper Flagg in the Spurs game. But Mavs, Spurs, Hawks are the Rockets three wins here. I have a little bit of a marketing ploy for the Houston Rockets. I'm just going to get this out for free. Do you know the space suit, like NASA guy dunking the ball logo that they have? Of course. An amazing logo. Honestly, they should use it more. They started to use it more, but if anything, they should be just like on the jersey full time. What they should do is have a men Thompson in the space suit. He takes off the helmet and he's the one floating through space because he's out of this world. And that would be the tagline. Yeah. Out of this world. Jesus Christ. Wait, so is this a commercial? Is this a part of the introduction to the game, the lineup intros? Like, what is it? yeah i think that like play like a really like like throbbing song where it's like and it's just like a space guy there like what's going on here and he takes off his helmet he's like we're out of this world so you're saying what if ad astra but amend thompson uh that's a little bit darker i think ultimately but uh you know you can take it one way or another right now it's like it seems pretty good and cheery for the houston rockets uh i mean amend in particular feels like he's more dialed in than he's ever been i think a couple things are going right for him one rebound in the hell out of the ball which i think speaks to the activity there 10 10 11 rebounds he's getting to the line also the three-point shot looks credible he's two for four through three games and then we got to talk about the block no yeah we do might already be the play of the season where he just high point blocked victor webb and yama to win the game the other night i think for a lot of players it would be the play of their career and for for a man he's just getting started hopefully he has like dozens of highlights that are even more impressive than that when all is said and done but to get that kind of verticality in that moment that cleanly to the point that wimpy didn't even like try to argue it it was just like pure frustration about getting dominated in that particular space i think there's like two maybe three defenders in the entire planet who could do that and one of them is victor webb and yama himself so i'll do credit to amend thompson who's just finding new ways to impress us every single day and i'm i'm with you offensively he looks really good and i think he's going to be a great player for the and i think he looks really good in part because some of the pressure's been taken off of him to be like a pure creator in any kind of sense and i thought the hawks win especially for the rockets was a good one not just because the hawks are a good opponent but because it felt like the rockets kind of beat a nice like democratic atlanta team at its own game like the rockets ball movement has been so good the way they're like they have so many guys on the floor who can handle and actually make plays and create and you don't you don't have as many like log jams as we did last time we saw that it's just because if you look at any given houston lineup there are four guys who you trust to make decisions with the ball at least sometimes five i mean four and a half 4.25 all due respect jabari smith jr uh but that's a great place to be in a great premise if you're gonna be like a little clunky or wonder about your spacing although they've been shooting the shit out of the ball to start uh we'll see kind of where where they all land but i think there's just a lot to like about the movement of this offense and what that foretells as far as what kind of contender they could be off last season by being one of the biggest and baddest teams out there they rebounded the hell out of the ball they went double big down low and it really spoke to their overall advantage where they not only have so much talent across the board there's just like a lot of bigger physical guys even against a team like atlanta who plays a lot of bigger wings they look tiny in comparison and in particular i loved this reddit headline that i saw which is something i don't say all that often but this one spoke to me from the rockets one which was in quotes goon bullied wet bananas night and it was just a photo of alper and shen goon like stunting on wemby because like he's part of this too he's been like reborn and looks completely refreshed and looks like the guy that i think we were hoping for uh a couple seasons and he kind of just kind of faded into obscurity because there's certain things about his game that i think are tough to work out he's been kind of a killer so far i think some of that is the shot is working for him which always helps his decision making in those like fulcrum hub like you need to post up and we need to run through you really effective like i just think he settled into a nice balance and there's so many guys on this rockets team for whom that's the case where if you stretch them a little too far their games completely fall apart or they their confidence craters as soon as they start running into walls or kevin durant gets frustrated with them and you just see the cascading effect of all this stuff piling up they are that kind of snowballing team but for right now everything feels so equally supported in terms of the way that they play and they're not even that biggest baddest team you described just yet like they aren't just like they're just like they're just dominating the offensive glass and the way that we're used to seeing their defense is good but not up to the highest levels of who they can be and god forbid if those things happen in addition to all this i mean they're going to be one of the best teams in the west for sure yeah there's definitely like an extra oomph i think to the way that they played thus far and i think shengun probably represents it the best because i think the baby yokish comp tends to just highlight the deficiencies he has in contrast to yokish is a very high bar but if anything it's almost used as a way to like kind of say what type of player he is but he's not quite that player but i think what it doesn't really speak to is that he does have a lot of power to his game particularly rumbling down the lane yeah you saw in that hawks game in particular like he's basically like just shedding dyson daniels off as if he's like a running back trying to go up against a defensive tackle and then he also like stormed down the lane in the pick and roll and just like yammed it on jalen johnson that was violent like oppressive genuinely that's the type of thing that like speaks to a team that i think like feels itself and i think that's important i also say it was important that down the stretch they almost let that game slip away fredman vliet did not play in that game in part because he's not going to play him back to backs he's been awesome for him thus far he has 16 total assists zero turnovers and that steady hand is something that they needed throughout the course of last season and certainly uh in this early going but i thought digging themselves out of that game and ultimately winning it was important because he's not going to be there on back-to-backs probably not going to be there on the rest of the season i mean correct me if i'm wrong justin but it sounds like you are surprised by the rockets i would say i would say mildly considering my personal expectations interesting i i just look all i know is i sat here in front of you and kyle and jacoby and everybody and said the rockets could be a surprise team in our variables for basically these exact reasons including basically the identical fred van vliet impact you just laid out and here we are they're looking fairly surprising especially at a time where the spurs don't quite have it all together yet the thunder are good but not quite in their final form like the rockets have been one of the most convincing western conference teams to date with all due respect to our our friends and soon to be like neighbors on stage the minnesota timberwolves well that's actually a good question then how like how do you think this is a long-term thing do you think that the rockets will be at this level going forward i mean i don't think like five guys in this roster are going to continue to shoot like sixty percent from three and they're going to be like five guys in this roster and they're going to shoot forty percent from three as a team every single game so like there's some of it's going to come down from that but i think the ball handling is where i find the stability in trying to understand what here translates and it's you wouldn't think that the difference of like we're going to bring in marcus smart and bogdan bogdanovich like that doesn't turn the roster upside down but the difference in having just more capable guys who can handle on the floor at all times i think does help carry things and does help alleviate some of that pressure not just on kd but on fred when he's out there to not have to overtax himself given his injury situation and how conservative they're being i just think they're really well positioned to be nine and ten deep basically every night with real players real athletes good two-way guys and like that's going to be a winning formula even if it's not a winning formula up to the absolute tip-top championship standards yeah i think like the addition of like a marcus smart and even bogey if he's going to be right matters a lot for this team because they just had a couple spots especially fred went out where you're given a lot of minutes the guys that are kind of iffy where it's like the aaron holiday minutes and stuff like that especially because reed shepherd wasn't the like the guy who could just step into fred's role and take over point guard duties men was shakier at that than i think a lot of people had hoped and so they really just shored up the back of the rotation and also when you have a night where reed shepherd is shooting lights out it does help when he's not that if he's not going to be that guy throughout the regular season then i'm a little bit more word because you reference this above he's not like they aren't shooting a lot of threes and team that's going to take a lot of threes and so they really need to make those threes um but it feels important that a man seems so dialed in to start with because he seems like the emotional totem for this team and he's not really doing a lot different i mean he is taking the threes and they look like the form of it actually looks way more credible um and shengun as well and so if like they just get incrementally better at taking those threes and making them i think it matters a lot but it's just like if he's gonna be just a little bit better and the rest of the team is gonna get him into positions where he can't he doesn't have like a set defense to go up against and he's just attacking downhill against a rotation like and he's gonna play with this amount of force and get to the line and everything like that like i think those are the little wins that could stack up to this team being perhaps like a top three top four team in the west absolutely i mean if they just had the same team they did last year but i'm in thompson is like 15 better at reading those nebulous off-ball situations where he's not quite being guarded like they win that series against the lakers they probably do even like you know hold hold their own in the second round like would have done well for themselves like that those kind of incremental gains in addition to the shooting or in place of the shooting can be really transformative and i mean the reason we come back to a man over and over with this team is he is clearly so clearly the high upside play here right like he is the guy for whom the world is like there is no limit there is no ceiling on any of this for him could just be a phenomenal player in so many ways that we don't and so watching him kind of chart that in real time he looks like a more mature reader of the game right now in terms of just finding his angles finding his lanes understanding where you know if katie attacks us away if shangun attacks this way this is my my like lane to go baseline or this is where i need to space out i think his understanding of this stuff just reads as being a little bit more complete right now and that's look it's going to come and go over the course of the year like your focus waxes and wanes it's really natural for young players but all good signs out as far as who he might be able to be this season kind of in the aggregate well just briefly before we go to your team i want to ask you about the spurs too who the rockets as we alluded to beat uh on that friday night big game on amazon prime um kind of an iffy start for them they're going with the three guard lineup to start with which i i don't feel great about wemby just feels a little off to start this season or at least in comparison to the expectations we had for him going into this season like are you worried yet about the spurs or you're gonna say no so i'm gonna say you're gonna say you're not worried but like how within the not worried on a go on a on a zero to minus five scale how not worried are you how not so which one is five the most not worried i don't know uh i'm not worried at all um and i'm not worried at all because the three guard lineup whether it works or doesn't they could always just kind of put it back in the box and go back to more traditional looks also tobias harris hasn't really played for them yet we'll see kind of who he can be for this team that'll be helpful at some point i just don't think this is really who they are and i think even if they do want to ride out the three guards it's been so weird watching that group on balance because offensively they are trash so far like really really bad and so the fact that putting your highest octane lineup on the floor and it's only holding its own and it kind of is holding its own on defense like they're just going to figure enough out to be a really good team one way or the other i suspect in time they will kind of end up defaulting back to something more traditional but we'll have to see yeah it almost seems like they're doing this to prove to dylan harper that like this isn't viable i will say the three teams that they played all like really have bigger wings in order to really stomp out a three guard lineup there where you're playing devin vassell as the nominal power forward yeah and so that's the other thing too is like it has looked better with champagne in that spot than devin vassell so it's like there are options here to toggle even beyond the three guards as far as like who that four should be i think they also had a lineup where they played all of the power forward options and then they had a lineup where they played all of the power options together which is like champagne and johnson and and all those guys get carter bryant in there why not yeah it seems like they're definitely trying out some stuff the one thing i will say about wemby because not only did he get blocked by a man there in a in a play where he probably should have just gone off and dunked it which you know tough but also got blocked in the next game against risha shay and it's like how often do you see when being blocked let alone being twice in two games um and i can't really shake the the vision of gilbert arenas doing where he's like bringing it underneath and i'm just like he's right like he hasn't clearly taken enough of a leap offensively that i think we had all hoped for which is not to say that they can't still win six this is going to be an awesome team regardless i'm just saying like perhaps we should pump the brakes on this being the anointed greatest team in the world which i think they were very much in consideration for i don't think anyone is saying that victor webb and yama has a complete go-to offensive game it's not really who he is but i think it's going to be a good game is right now it may maybe it never will be but or just a go-to move can there be a move i mean i think the go-to move is dribble and often dunk and that go-to move works well for many players in the league janice such a takumpo among them as well it's like if you have those physical advantages you should flex them does he need a face-up set shot or jumper short or a turnaround like that kind of stuff would be nice the gilbert arenas thing was bizarre i like i i can't think of one person who feels less qualified among professional basketball players to talk about being seven six than gilbert arenas so like i i really don't know what it is that he's bringing to the table on that i i thought you were gonna say shot selection well no one is less credible um one thing i will say because tobias harris not hasn't played thus far i also think he's gonna matter too because if you watched after a man blocked it tobias was in wemby's ear and i think what he was saying was you gotta follow after like there was still time on the clock i know it was like you were shaken by being blocked but there you gotta go and commit that foul so that we could put it in the line and stretch the line and then you're gonna be able to out a little bit more i like the tobias harris effect and he's gonna play like they really need the veteran presence there so i think he's gonna be important they're gonna be good last thing in this game during that broadcast i don't know if you caught this candace parker i think the game was in austin and obviously katie back being back in austin is a big deal uh candace can there sure uh candace parker was telling a story about kd back in the longhorn days and like i guess they played tennessee and she's like oh but tennessee got him and then kevin harlan was like there was like a beat there's a beat of silence and then kevin harlan's like a lot of orange in that and and then they no one said anything and then they just went on all right a lot of orange in that is phenomenal broadcast work uh i think i think you should work that in kyle's not gonna listen to this episode i think you should work in there's a lot of orange you know rick rubin the super producer i do and i've i'm very curious to see where this one goes he's one of my favorite just like pop culture figures because at any moment you can't tell if he's an absolute genius or a total charlatan and i think i think both things at once oftentimes but there's a specific clip from benny blanco the producer who i guess he showed something to rick rubin and rubin was like hmm it's too orange and benny blanco was like oh my god i'm like what the fuck are you talking about it's too orange but then he thought through it and he's like actually it was too orange and it helped me figure this out holy shit but what what did that mean what was too orange i don't know i don't remember the song or what i guess apparently some people just see in colors and perhaps he's one of these guys but i also think it's synesthesia but is it a synesthetic you're asking the wrong person dog well how orange do you think this pot is is this sufficiently orange it's more and more orange by the minute this episode is brought to you by the home depot the home depot has everything you need to launch your holiday season in style upgrade your yard with this year's hottest holiday decor including the show stopping towering santa oh i like that one and his impressive reindeer both 8.5 feet and both designed with incredible detail that stands out day or night when you want decor that delivers impact the home depot has it make your home santa's favorite stop with the holiday decor you want all waiting for you at the home depot this episode is brought to you by boar's head what if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli well boar's head just did that bursting with flavor perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it presenting the fryer's turkey breast only from boar's head backyard tradition now available behind the counter visit your local deli today discover the craftsmanship behind every bite boar's head committed to craft since 1905 i believe that um all right i want to do your team i would love to i would like to talk about the toronto raptors who may be the best team i've ever seen that also cannot shoot for anything and made i don't even know if they're going to be that good on offense it's it's kind of very tbd at this point as we're recording this they're in the midst of their game against the timberwolves doesn't seem like it's going great um quite not playing in that one why not playing which is of keynote as far as the construction of that team how much they rely on him the half court offense but like i'm so intrigued by the raptors because of this counterbalance right of you have kawaii leonard who's been brought in you have this defense that i think has the potential to be the best defense in the league certainly has been i think the best pressure defense to this point in the season in terms of the turnovers the deflections all those things really operating at a high level how much can those kind of take the weight off of each other like if kawaii doesn't play is it gonna be like this where you try to play a good opponent like the timberwolves and just like the balance of the team is off you're overexerting you're over gambling you're trying to compensate for the fact that you don't want to be in a half court offense and this is what that game looks like or will they find a place in the season where some of the weight is taken off of kawaii where he could sit out a game like this and the team doesn't kind of fall apart in the process like i i just i'm eager to kind of chart their journey through the kawaii leonard experience of when he does and doesn't play and how much what could be a truly truly elite team and i think that's defense can help kind of take some of the edge off of that process yeah i think the defense is definitely legit and i would say up until tonight i was encouraged by how all of the pieces kind of click into place because the issue with a team like the raptors historically because they have such a fetish for these tweener types is that if you have like a couple of these guys fitting the right guys around those like interesting guys who are a little bit tougher to really work into a traditional lineup the traditional positional lineups uh it's just it's more work than you realize and in the past when you had guys like emmanuel quickly you were often found lacking because he wasn't enough of a true point guard or enough of a true score or he just wasn't available and that's the big issue with quickly he's just often hurt especially last season especially in the playoffs but now all of those guys because there are so much around them because you have kawaii taking on some of the scoring burden feel like they really just click into place on this team and scotty barnes in particular where it's like he's the most important player but he doesn't necessarily have to be the go-to guy when they get into those certain situations the lineups with him and quickly going into tonight have been exhilarating and i think to the point i'm trying to say it was just like these guys all play off of each other very well and so i do worry that like if you don't have some of these pieces as we're seeing with deeper teams that are using the flow in order to produce results um that could be an issue but i would say the start thus far is encouraging yeah i think the fact that the synergy between the two teams is really important and i think the fact that the synergy between the two teams is really important and i think the fact that the synergy between the two teams is really important and i think the fact that the synergy between the best players two as you say kind of amplify each other compensate for each other like i've been so struck watching their defense especially about how much they're able to shrink gaps get away with the switching that they do because like if you try to be deliberate and work the mismatch they will just double back and double down and like crater any advantage that you think you have and a lot of the reason they could do that is because across their entire front court three four five they're getting like the highest possible level of help defense from those guys not in like a traditional rim protection way although sometimes that but just like crunching down shrinking space taking away passing lanes absolutely smothering guys in a way where you know we spent the preseason and some of the offseason talking about do they need to start Colin Murray Boyles like should they what should they do with Jakob Pertl I mean the answer might be that they can be an incredible defensive team with either of those guys in there that's mostly been the case so far when they've been healthy enough to have Kawhi out there but you're right about the depth like they are a team that if they do get a significant injury or a significant Kawhi absence when you have to see if they can get a significant injury or a significant Kawhi absence when you have to cinch up that depth chart and like Jamison Battle becomes that much more important or Alan Graves becomes like that much more important I don't know that they're they're quite in a position to sustain all that and so more than anyone like everything is about being healthy at the right time but they might need to be healthy for the longest amount of time to kind of get through this regular season with the kind of seating that they're going to want I found myself at various points during these first couple of days being like oh this team looks encouraging but I would love to see them against another team that really pushes the math advantage every year or every two years we think we've reached the limits on teams really pushing the shooting and then we get another team that just takes it even farther like I don't really know where the logical extreme is because you have teams like the Hornets you have teams like the Wolves who are just going to get them up there and at a certain point like maybe the strength advantage maybe just like the overall like just like physicality of a team like the Raptors can win out especially in a playoff series it seems like a different battlefield but in a regular season track meet it's going to be a lot of fun and it's going to be a lot of fun and it's going to be a lot of fun and it's just like how do you keep up with that and there's just like at a certain point the math wins out and so I'm not surprised that they're struggling with a team like the Wolves especially without Kawhi because they really need that punch in order to live up to that level of offense well especially for as good as the Raptors defense had been in their first couple games they weren't like dominating the shot distribution battle right like this wasn't a team that was like really funneling opponents into the mid-range like they were still getting up threes they were like the shot chart it was just they were contesting the hell out of everything and felt like they were all over everybody and so so long as that's the case and you're a bad three-point shooting team it's going to feel a little wobbly like you're going to have to find some mathematical advantage whether it is the threes whether it's dominating the possession battle like they're going to need to find what their inroads are tactically I think to really harness the fullest extent of all its length all this activity so much they have going for them but right now it's like a frankly well I think RJ Barrett is going to be an interesting character and they're trying to long-term trajectory because on the one hand it seems like he fits their vision so well and especially on nights where Kawhi isn't there you could use his scoring oomph I do wonder though if you really want to shore up some of the shooting deficiencies if he's like the classic candidate in order to trade for it like I guess do you where do you stand on this and this is a conversation that I feel like we get into with the Raptors every couple years where it's like they have something going but like trying to mess with it might just be a little bit more of a challenge like completely throw things off how do you augment it and really add what you need in order to do that I'm I'm curious like is RJ unmovable if their goal is to stay in this set where the defense and the the size that they have on the wing is so important to their identity I guess the question with that becomes if you are going to trade him what is your top priority in return are you looking for the knockdown shooter that the team doesn't have right now are you looking for another stable half-court ball handler who's going to do that stuff better than RJ does who I have to say is pretty good at it especially as a second side guy it's like if those are kind of the end goals I don't know that the trade-offs make sense for every version of the Raptors and that's the difficulty of where they find themselves and where they're going to be all season right it's like are you building for the team that has Kawhi are you building for the team that doesn't and Scottie Barnes can walk both sides of that Calamari Boyles can walk both sides Emmanuel quickly I think to some degree can walk both sides of that I think they might need RJ's creation to a degree that makes it difficult to do that and I think that's the difficulty to deal him away for just like a catch-and-shoot type it's just not going to make sense to make that sort of exchange yeah I'll say this the early results can be mirages a lot of the time but much like summer league I often think when a team just like really has it against lesser competition yeah and up until tonight they played lesser competition it was the balls and then the wizards they just felt a cut above and that feels significant to me like I would be surprised at this stage if the Raptors completely fell off oh they're not like a top 16 at least in the east I would be surprised at this point I think they're just too like competitive in the sense of what they are pouring into these games like that they're a high effort team and to have that kind of athleticism that kind of skill and that kind of effort like they're going to be good enough but I mean Darko Ryakovic was on this before this Wolves game about like what do all these turnovers mean after two and he was like I really don't know like you can't know this early like it's all gonna feel like if not a mirage it's gonna get buried in the bucket so I think they are going to be a team that forces a lot of turnovers I think they're always gonna have the potential to completely stymie and lock down elite offensive opponents but will they do it against every offensive profile that they come across will they do it against every team that has depth when they don't that feels a little more up for grabs right now yeah well speaking of buckets I need you to do the ice bucket challenge for me just before I talk about Caleb Wilson you I need to just have a vat of ice cubes just ready for me because I just get so hot and bothered watching this guy because he's my player uh that I'm bringing to the table here uh I was trying to think who the last rookie I felt this like exhilarated by was I I want to say it's Zion but if you were to really like dig in and like ask me like what I actually want to say yeah I think it's LeBron really I just in terms of like a pure aesthetic like fun experience because like I think you could argue Wemby for instance but there is just something about the oddity to that it's like a different viewing experience where you're just trying to wrap your head around what you're seeing and Cooper Flagg was great but there was such a weight to a lot of his especially early performances where the burden of Lucas the loomed over everything and also didn't have a point guard everything kind of went awry and so it was like a sludgy experience that he kind of just persevered over and kind of popped through with Caleb Wilson like they're the Bulls have no expectations so it's literally like just let a rip in a fun up and down offense that Splitter is running with these guys and he just plays the most fun brain of basketball that I I could ever just draw up so he's like the platonic ideal rookie experience for me it's been marvelous so far I mean I've been riding the same high the same waves like I was going through the same exercise you were as far as like when was the last time a rookie kind of had this sort of cresting momentum right out of the gate I think Blake is is worthy of that conversation too like rookie Blake Griffin was really you had to be there kind of thing yeah and if Caleb Wilson is going to turn the Bulls into that kind of show this season it seems like he really really is he had like five dunks in the first half against the Wizards the other night it's just like he's living in transition and and because he's so athletic you can already see just like how little room for error that leaves everyone he's running up against where it's like if you if you if you're running dead even with him on the break you have already lost right like if he gets even a half step on you to a loose ball if you're moving in the opposite direction the possession is basically over and you're seeing elite athletes elite NBA athletes like give up on these plays two steps before the dunk because they're like I just don't I can't match what he's doing in terms of the fury with which he's streaking to the rim it's I think there's a lot to wait and see with Caleb Wilson but the exhilaration of watching him play the momentum of who he is going to the basketball and how that's already manifesting in terms of transition opportunities generating free throws like he's been wildly productive and he doesn't really have a way to beat good defensive players yet so what is going to happen when those things come together right he managed though to like stun Keyshawn George and basically put him into the basket I don't think he ended up scoring but like Keyshawn George now like what third year player pretty big for his position and he kind of just like gave him one and I was like holy shit like and you don't expect that because Wilson has a lot of power to his game if you watch him dunk you know that but like he's still kind of a bit of a string bean he has a lot of physical maturation to still go through but he had that play and then the one that I think like in addition to all the cool dunks that he's been reeling off was when he caught it and then put it right back up in midair almost as if he was tapping someone in 21 like just like I just don't it was in transition and he just like caught it almost like got into a clam yeah just like put it back up I was like how like had to literally bend over at the waist pull down to his ankles to grab the ball and somehow contoured his way back up and it was like oh he still has a second and a half of hang time left after doing all of that it's like he's a preposterous athlete like really really fun to watch and look clearly can't hit threes yet like that's not part of his game I think we all kind of talked ourselves into it coming out of summer league of like oh what if he actually is a volume three-point shooter out of the gate what if that is who he could be even as a rookie I think it's safe to say now Caleb Williams can hit threes in the way that the Theranos box can run every test right it's like it is is theoretically capable of doing it and maybe someday it will happen but for now you know it's a lot of bells and whistles it might shoot some smoke out now and again but for now we're gonna have to settle for everything else it does that's right well i feel bad because other rookies have been impressive like kim boozer won a game for the grizzlies against a just zombie warriors team and now not even zombie in the way that bill calls the heat the zombie heat it's more like they were just dead and i don't know how that they were walking through sleepwalking through the rest of that game uh boozer has been incredible like already is playing at a 10-year veteran sort of level just setting up moves before the defense is aware of it and i was just like this guy might just average 20 10 and 5 just right off the rip and might lead them to a play-in just in his first season so that's like possible a cough is like taking every shot he's doing stuff he's doing you will never give it off he's doing i mean even his own teammates are coming out here being like can you please pass the ball just just one time can you please pass it and i don't know he's like i would never even do that i mean that's the thing if zach is blanching at your shot selection come on it it's been a really like good start for a lot of different rookies out there but wilson's a cut above and to the point about his shooting the fact that he's already shooting them is like encouraging enough because like going in through college i thought this guy was going to be a long-term prospect with his shot like he's doing it within the flow of the game and the shot looks right he's not making a lot of them at this point but like it already seems like he's going to be a more versatile varied offensive player and like the kevin garnett comp comes up a lot like dare i say like he probably will never be the defensive player of garnett that's obviously lofty sort of expectations but like he's kind of evolutionary garnett where like the offensive stuff seems like he's already starting from an earlier place yeah he's doing a lot of these things that garnett didn't know about and he's doing a lot of these things that garnett didn't know about and he's doing later in his career i think the hopeful projection isn't just the version of kevin garnett we saw in the nba but the version that lives in that team usa highlight clip of him playing one-on-one full court against the best basketball players in the world and just like had it all right like can pick guys up full court can apply pressure looks big and in control and poised and like that's where he's still a little bit of a baby deer right it's like if you if you have a set defense and you want him to beat guys one-on-one he's trying to shoot over the top and it's kind of not and if those start hitting with any kind of consistency everything else is going to open up because he has like so many different ways already even without a reliable shot to apply pressure and so he's going to find whatever the leak is in your defense whether it's on or off ball whether it's in kind of transition or semi-transition situations if there is any lapse whatsoever in your boxing out or securing of the defensive rebound like he's going to eke in there and get a hand on the ball or just dunk it right back straight away i just i i really between him a high water mark for immediate rookie impact immediate rookie watch ability just like comprehensive ability to affect the game on both sides of the ball for two teams that have needed that and dare i say yaxal lindenborg also been pretty good but very good though the defense which is what he like was trying to hang his head on against luca i feel like steve kerr every day every like two hours even is starting to be like you need to do better at xyz there um but if you watch the game against the suns like there's a lot to he's a huge kid and there's just a lot to him so this rookie class man it's going to be fun to watch the entire season definitely and down the line i mean keen woggler has has done some interesting things out of the gate at imara it's like there's kind of contributors of all levels among this rookie group and they're not all going to live up to caleb wilson they're certainly not going to be in the rookie of the year race if him and boozer are producing like this all season but it's going to be a fun conversation for the all rookie teams for the you even though no one's actually going to watch it but as far as who this class is already i'm i'm very impressed am i going to watch 70 bulls games this year like i think the over under is 70 at this i've already developed refined takes about their center rotation which is it class isn't really playing yet right i'm like jalen smith would he be good on this contender that contender uh leonard miller coming off the bench even though he didn't really play at center as much in in that last game leonard miller's good though he's a good contender he's a good contender he's a good contender he's a good contender he's a good contender jalen smith is also good jalen smith is good i have i have had that exact thought about many backup centers for actual competitive teams of like would they be better with jalen smith and the answer is often yes but you also watched 70 bulls games last year so i think you're clearly gonna hurdle over that mark with ease this year yeah no they're diminishing giddy though so it might kind of even out at a certain yeah how are you dealing with that emotionally uh you know he's hurt so i don't think this is an appropriate measure of his impact you know it's it's perhaps fair i guess we'll see uh you know when that wrist is feeling better where he where he nets out for the bulls but but your guy bazellus getting benched in the fourth too so it happens litter just drives a hard bargain it's the litter way he does drive a hard bargain but also i mean that offense is looking spicy creative versatile like caleb wilson may not have all the moves yet to like figure out how to attack teams like it seems like the bulls are fairly well coached and fairly well organized in a way that is nice to see the league pass bulls no longer the tnt bulls the better connotation is the league pass bulls all right why don't we take a break come back do the rest of this the ringer nba show is brought to you by fan duel the nba is back and this is your most rewarding season ever on fan how rewarding are we talking more rewarding than a half court buzzer beater more rewarding than a 29 point comeback maybe even more rewarding than a center knocking down a three i mean come on everybody loves when the doesn't stop on the court look out for fan duel rewards club exclusive offers surprises and more so i'm looking at monday's slate in the nba i kind of like the minnesota timberwolves who will be playing host to our live show on tuesday going up against the cleveland cavaliers the timberwolves are on the road getting four and a half points playing on a back-to-back they just played tonight on sunday calves though have been a little shaky to start this season the wolves seem like they are a bit of a buzzsaw so give me the wolves plus four and a half even on that back-to-back and every week check the fan duel app to see what's waiting for you make this year most rewarding season ever with fan duel download the app to get started 21 plus select states or 18 plus dc or wyoming gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in connecticut all right you're up with your player i would like to talk about tyrese maxi and i guess by extension the philadelphia 76ers but in watching the sixers to date i have been struck by how just like absolutely clear it is that tyrese maxi is their best player like not even close not even really a conversation uh he is somehow both both their most explosive and their most consistent player to this point in the season already was awesome and yet i'm just more and more impressed by him every day and i would say especially with this team seeing the score and the crater and the shooter and the like blur of an athlete that we knew tyrese maxi already was a team where he has all these other stakeholders with lebron with jalen brown with joelle and b with vj edgecomb like he's already kind of ascending into a really interesting impact defender as well and he's not like a pressure stopper lockdown guy but in the way that the sixers have been a good defensive team which is mostly kind of like they flip the switch and the game is sort of over at various points in some of these games or sometimes they don't and they eventually get caught doing that um maxi is like a like he'll just jump into passing lanes he will be like the the catalyst of so many of those runs with defense first place and the way that of course gets them out onto the break and so i've just been he to me is like a good totem for thinking about the sixers and like what are all of the unique opportunities that come with having these guys together and let them do things that they wouldn't ordinarily do and tyrese maxi has not been a good defensive player to this point in his career at best maybe like kind of average or like at least got some steals but wasn't really a good defensive player at this point in his career he's just been a good defensive player at this point in his career he's just been a good defensive player at this point in his career and now i just am watching him during some of these runs blow up plays in a really mature way as far as like how he is reading the game what he is anticipating how it's feeding into the flow for the sixers and it feels like we're poised for the most complete season of tyrese maxi's career yet their offense is really interesting because by any objective measure it hasn't been good has not but a lot of the component parts are at least showing good signs where the ball is like actually pinging they had a lot of assists in that game against the calves and like they're sharing and everyone's like getting involved and i think it helps to get everyone involved because it doesn't seem like a lot of these guys will be around for every single game seems like in bead and lebron have already figured out a cadence where one's gonna play and the other isn't uh be played against the bucks and then lebron played tonight and so maxi really has to be the stabilizing force for this team if only because they need someone who's going to be present and like like productive every single game and so he has that burden on him but also if you look at the ways in which all of their their guys are going to score all of the other three stars that they have on this team are very like grinded out like let's get to the free throw line let me get mine and like let me make sure that like i get the proper time and the post and all this other stuff in order to be successful maxi's the one guy is like fuck it i'm actually just gonna run around like speedy gonzalez and like i'm gonna fill in these gaps i'm just shooting you is critical to a team like this. And so it's encouraging to see not only trajectory because like he was on the verge of superstardom before all this stuff happened last offseason like the numbers were there just seemed like he just needed more of team success he's been pushing the volume for a couple seasons there but so like yes he's on this trajectory it's good to see he's still on that path but also they need him to be this guy because he's like the difference of what else they have on this team totally which tends to be very just like we're we're we're just gonna overpower you he's the electricity he is the electricity and i think you're already starting to see some of the way that that electricity can channel into some of these other guys right like during to close out some of these games during critical moments like pulling a maxi and bead pick and roll is not like rocket science right like put your all-star point guard your mvp big out there together it makes sense but those are two guys who haven't really had a lot of real-time chemistry as far as like playmaking working off of each other in a direct pick and roll kind of way but maxi hitting and being into those kind of like short roll either to make the pass and spray out to somebody else or to kind of stop at the elbow and get into his mid-range zone has been kind of fruitful for them and then also you can see the way that that speed and the electricity that maxi plays with and the defense i'm talking about in terms of his ability to anticipate plays and blow them up like caleb wilson is the number one player in the league in terms of transition volume to this point like he is living on the break constantly breaking out lebron is also super high on that list jalen brown also super high on that list of course tyrese maxi is getting out on the break himself it's like they are really reliant on that sort of offense right now and it's a good communal effort but a lot of it comes down to are you streaking with the fastest point guard in the league as he tries to go end to end and you know he's going to attract a lot of attention and i so i again i think i think a lot about like how is playing for the sixers going to be different for jalen brown than the celtics or how is playing for the six is going to be different for lebron than any of the teams he's played for previously and you're starting to see some of that stuff manifest in all sorts of interesting ways um and we can get into some of those as well but like i think maxi's impact on the offense takes a lot of pressure off those guys and what they have done in turn is allow him to go through like i don't know like the reverse dejounte murray like we're so used to seeing those guys who like are defense first players who become stars and forget how to play defense and tyrese maxi to me is like an offense first talent who became a star and now has a chance to be the most athletic guard in the league who is also applying that athleticism on defense as well i mean if the injuries start to really take hold he might actually have to play center for them at a certain point and it doesn't seem like we're that far away from that happening it's very true but on that front like i actually i've been very impressed with nick you like his center minutes well not his center minutes but i mean nick nurse is just moving all kinds of stuff around like not a coach who's afraid to have anyone guard anyone pretty much if he thinks it might net in like 0.3 possession advantage or point per possession advantage on a given trip down the floor but the way that he's basically at times put in bead on a wing and played lebron as their center defensively has been like kind of sick to watch and and i think really fun in terms of what it can do for some of these lineups again it's like you have all this talent like there's really no excuse there's just a matter of like how do you reposition this stuff to make it work what's going on with nick nurse you're just on the sidelines looking like he's a man of faith shoot a death jams record cover death row records cover i think i think he like andre drummond has improved in his faith in christ you know he's he's just he's really he's really ascending he's elevating to a higher plane every day no but we forget that nurse really made his bones being sort of like the crazy tactician in the lab cooking up some of these things it might require a lot of those guys these guys that are injury prone and probably need to be paced with the season playing too much and grinding away at center and including tonight where it seems like they didn't have the center depth there and b didn't play bona hasn't been very good jabari walker also not available and so it really is lebron and bust or bust i mean dean wade i guess you could throw in there as well kind of but it gets that is the worry i'm not actually concerned about the playoffs i'm more worried about pacing through the regular season because if anything as i watch this team the problem solving just seems at like such a high level already you saw again in that calves game where it's just like the calves hit one bit of just like that was an obstacle and they just completely fold whereas the sixers live up to that moment like i've watched the six or sometimes i'm these guys going to average 60 free throws a game in the playoffs because they can all individually get to the line and even bj edgecom is even doing some of that but yeah i think the high-end stuff is there i'm just more worried about like surviving through the regular season i think it's a credible concern the only thing that kind of quiets it for me is that they do look like just one of the great flip switching teams in modern nba history and so long as that's the case like yeah there's going to be some games that are kind of stuck in the muck they're going to allow teams like the calves to build a substantial lead that then they have to like storm back and cut down but they have it in them kind of anytime they want to have it and so the there's legitimate problem solving on offense and there is a defense that can kick into just like the highest gears that we are seeing in the league right now as far as what they're capable of and that might be good enough in the regular season and you hope by the end of the regular season that the offense feels a little more streamlined a little more seamless that like you've kind of worn into the game and you're going to be able to get into some of the muscle memory with that stuff where everyone kind of knows where to be and it's like i i just have no doubt that we're going to get into a you know a second or third round playoff series assuming the sixers get that far and like we're going to be talking about the fact that vj edgecomb in these first games looked like aaron gordon in the dunker spot and it's like that's a viable weapon all of a sudden for this team and guess what it's going to pay off if that's the thing they cultivate and grow and he gets even more comfortable doing something i'm sure he's never done in his entire basketball life to this point how about 13 rebounds including 11 on the defensive glass like a monster to end those possessions and one of the smallest guys on the court is getting in there because he's so good at just leaping at the right in timing it in addition to his athleticism and also darting into the right spots for that and so he's going to fill a lot of gaps for this team also filling a lot of gaps for this team jalen brown and i know we took some pot shots to start this pod but like some pot roast shots yeah let's go i'm not i'm not proud i'm not proud of it but sometimes you gotta slow cook these things just let him bring that baster out let's go um he has done a good job thus far doing enough but not too much and i just thought it was a complete misread of his motivations going into the season that he would want to take this team by the scruff and be the guy considering what he was saying about the celtics the way to prove his doubters wrong is to play a role and just excel there and excel in team basketball because that is what everybody is saying you cannot do and thus far he has done exactly what you need him to do which is like 20 points the shooting has been dialed in and when you need him you can turn to him and when you don't he's out there at least give an effort on a defensive end well i mean not to just float unsubstantiated conspiracy theories out there but he would never the sixers an organization that has been known to create a burner account or two in their time could the call have been coming from inside the house could the sixers have flooded the space with bots who are saying jalen brown is going to take over the game over this team he's going to force all this offense like get in his head to reverse psychology it so that he comes in and he's just a he's just a good soldier you know he's just it's just a cog in the machine they gave him the geese method is that the you think he's an industry plant in that way it could be i mean uh i mean i wouldn't put it past organizations to throw a little wrench in there a little little turn in the punch bowl i also don't think the celtics at this stage probably needed it because it seems like after a decade together the celtics are going to be those guys just were bound for a breakup at some point um but you know crazier things have happened we're just asking questions here on group chat uh that have no basis in reality whatsoever all right takes now my take involves the oklahoma city thunder who up until tonight had been absolutely rolling uh i think the thunder had gotten to the point where we need to talk about them as if they are the peak spurs in terms of organizational excellence there's just something about this team the ability to lose three rotation players and to almost look like they've shed a skin and come out on the other side looking more versatile more dangerous offensively uh the fact that adai mara comes off as a rookie and is instantly seems like someone you could throw out there against victor webb and yama even if it's only for 10 to 15 minutes unfortunately as we're recording this it looks like jaylen williams suffered a pretty significant leg injury i i don't want to watch it because i don't want to watch it because i don't want to it's really bad say that it was pretty ugly and i can't watch those things and so this is really disappointing i thought j-dub was in line for a pretty significant season this year um to see that happen is really tough and i mean i guess if a team is built to withstand something like that it is the thunder unfortunately though um it just sucks that that he's not only injured again but this one seems more significant than what he already dealt with last season i just awful i would echo your sentiments if you have not seen this video i wouldn't go out of your way to watch it um it's the kind where he gets injured and they immediately throw a towel over his leg because it's like genuinely really distressing as he's sitting there on the floor it's awful to see i mean jaylen williams is we were just praising him coming into the season both for the development he had shown to this point and also the fact that he still felt like a skeleton key that could unlock so many things especially relative to last year's version of the thunder where he came back and played after his injury previous injury um it was able to help them but not to the full extent that we know he can and now they're gonna have to figure out a way without him again and you're right that if any team can do it it's the thunder like they have aj mitchell sitting right there jared mccain has come in and been like a crucial source of scoring for this team they're gonna have to tap even further and further into that depth but this is the trade-off when you start giving up three rotation pieces for the sake of future proofing your team and your finances and all that it's like now you're one more spot a really significant spot down on your depth chart yes you have the mvp yes you're gonna have an all-world defense yes you have a championship core and championship medal but you have to make do all over again with just a massive hole in the middle of your roster yeah and jada was someone that we talked about going into this season as being integral not only just because of all the good things that he already does and how much more potential he had to tap into because he's really just at the start of his career and like we i don't think we've seen the full version of what he's capable of doing yet just like they don't have that big bodied forward after losing luke door and maybe even aaron wiggins to really turn to now and i think that's critical especially because it seems like chet's gonna be playing more forward than center and it seems like just his body isn't developing at any rapid speed he gained two pounds over the offseason and it just seems like this is the guy he's going to be at least for the time being um like kenrich williams i imagine will matter more here yeah we don't know what's happening with topich with sorber some of these younger players that just haven't gotten in court for injuries and unfortunate situation with topich and so like maybe this is where the developmental system really kicks into play here i guess this is why you have all that depth is to be able to withstand these sorts of things i don't think they're going to be able to to paper over a loss like jada we saw in the playoffs like that game seven probably might have even flipped in the thunder's favor had jada been out there so it's going to be tough sledding for here if he is indeed out for the entire season i expect that considering the way people are talking about it um but the thunder do have a lot of options i guess more so than other teams just speaks to the overall take here it's just like this is kind of what they plan for for extreme situations like this that you didn't see coming well as far as to like the thunder being a model franchise it's not just the way that they assemble a team with this kind of depth it's the way that they sort of forecast and plan and implement that depth into real and practical ways right like it's not just individual guys off with their trainers in the lab like there is a plan for them to be able to be a part of this roster but there is a plan for them to be able to be a part of this roster and distinct and well articulated for every single player on this roster to be a part of what the thunder do and now like i would say that's maybe the primary difference between this sort of injury for j-dub and his injury situation last year is like i would operate under the same assumption you just made which is that he is not going to be a part of the rest of this season if it turns out that he can come back at some point that's wonderful but they can operate from today without him as far as like not make not thinking he's going to be a part of their plans and i think that's a good point because i think that's a good point because i think that's a good understanding what that could mean as far as the role expansion for yeah whether it's kenrich williams whether it's jay will who i think is also out with a minor injury right now but you would think would be back and will be an important four for them who can kind of plug and play into some of these spots but the look of their team is going to be different the feel of their team is going to be different this was a group that it felt like was already trying to usher in a daimara and have him kind of take some of the responsibility away from isaiah hartenstein and like already kind of trading off in so many ways the guys who were a part of the championship team for you know thunder 3.0 or whatever version we're at at this point these are terrible circumstances to have to make those sorts of changes and usher in even new ones upon new ones but there is a lot of depth here there's a lot to work with and there's shay who's been kind of like slow playing his start to this season in many ways as far as playing off the ball and worst case scenario you can always put the ball back in the hands of the guy who attacks the basket as well as anyone in the league even though j-dub to this point had been their most prominent driver yeah i think the spurs of old were at the vanguard of so many new like just ways of thinking about the nba about scouting about new technology about analytics i think the thunder if they have a superpower is that they're just so dialed in on all of the things that go into building a well-run organization like this you spoke to it the fact that they play guys on their bench just to get just to try new things just to get them involved so that like they might be able to use them down the road this is obviously an opening for that the other thing that we should mention here is like they're doing this at a time when they are directly up against a cap system built to prevent this exact thing which is not only having three-star players but actually feeding it more over time with other players on top of that the second apron they are already in next season because of the case in wallace extension the case in wallace extension happened in part well they got rid of door in order to give wallace the extension because that was like the first test of whether or not someone would have i don't want to call it the disease of more because it isn't quite that just yet it's more just like a young player wanting more like it's the natural ambition of a young player i would say the curse of having a bunch of guys who are really fucking good at basketball you know like they're all capable of doing even more sometimes than what you can allow them to do realistically within your team right and so this really is a test of best laid plans against just like happenstance like as much i think it's silly sometimes that we ascribe success in sports to all these different things these more meticulous like aspects and it's fun to talk about on podcasts but a lot of times it's just like you can't plot against the way the ball bounces unfortunately this one just happened to be a pretty bad one well it's a reminder i mean going into this season this season i would say felt especially unsettled in so many ways there were a lot of variables and variables if you will um a lot of guys coming back from injury a lot of teams it just felt really difficult to anticipate what the landscape of the league was going to look like much less to predict who the champion was going to be or something like that this is yet another reminder that like there are no foregone conclusions the surest thing on the board seemed to be that the thunder and the spurs were going to be the two best teams in the western conference the spurs have struggled out of the gate the thunder have now had like really the wind taken out of their sails with this injury like who knows what happens from this point but the season is yet to be made and so we're going to see kind of what the thunder how they rally how they change how they evolve as a result of all this but this is a blow there's really no way about it yeah all right do you want to do your take to close this out here i do but you know it's all relatively silly by comparison i feel like we've just we've just gone very dire given the circumstances with j-dub um my take is lower stakes my take is a little more arbitrary and that is the wizards are undermining anthony davis or in parentheses is anthony davis undermining anthony davis and i say that i say that in regard to one thing in particular this is what's happening with ad right now he is playing 57% of the game and he's playing 57% of the game and he's playing 26% of his minutes with alex art they're starting together we all expected that four and five they're going to play together a lot that's all honestly fine by me 26% of his minutes as the lone big out there a five something that ad doesn't love doing but will sometimes do and often has done to great effect about 20% of his minutes though he's playing with deandre ayton and i cannot figure out for the life of me why that is happening and i don't know that anthony davis could give you a good example good reason either other than maybe he's not going to be able to play with alex art but he's going to maybe he just doesn't really want to play center all that much i was going to say i think i think we all know what the reason is is it just that though it could be that so i sent out a couple is ad cooked texts over the weekend before i know that that you wanted to talk about this yeah um i'm going to give you two sets of answers i'm going to give you the cope the copium and i'm going to give you okay the hard truth okay hit me um the cope involves not having aj de bonza there so he has to play center all that much i was going to say i think we all know what the reason is is it hasn't played thus far and so their rotations are already off a little bit i think they were expecting him to be a second unit ball handler for the team cool bolly's already playing in that first unit and so things are just like not quite right there also i don't think the young guys know how to play with good players one and certainly not a player like anthony davis some of the entry passes are a little like and it also feels like what they think is they'll dump it to ad and the job's over like they give him the ball at the top of the arc with like six seconds off the shot clock and they're like oh he's just gonna isolate and score he's that type of guy unfortunately he's not that type of guy now which brings me to the hammer uh seems a step slow and i i watched him mostly in that game against the raptors and playing a four like scotty barnes is gonna make everyone look a step slow but i think in general he's looked slow even in comparison to the last time we saw him with the lakers and so that's something to track here and then the pairing with sar i just don't make think it makes sense because both of them don't want to be the player who i think they'll ultimately need to be for this team sure i think ad needs to be the power center and sar needs to be the more skilled four but the way that they're positioned is sar is the center and ad is trying to do is like pull up jumper stuff now is sar skilled enough to be that four i don't think so not really not yet we'll see so maybe the pairing just doesn't work out but right now it even seems like they're not going to be able to do that because they're not going to be able to do that aren't attuned to like what would work best in that setup so everything you're saying about ad and his like having lost a step obviously true i mean since the last time we saw him as a laker he spent a season and change woefully injured as a maverick unable to get on the floor and then effectively like put on ice by the wizards when he got there so like he did look good in that first half though you know what the the playoff proof was right there it was it was all right there for the taking it's a really good half but like when he's out there and he's like oh my god with Trae Young, like that's a pairing that makes sense even with the young guy is not able to make heads or tails of it and they've already been one of the most prolific assist combinations in the league to this point as you would expect them to be like that's something that empirically works the rest of the lineup around them is a little fuzzy a little murky clearly i think the issues with him and sarah are well founded and well laid out uh in terms of your objection but that's a pairing i at least want to see if it works like i want to invest time in sarah and davis together and figure out like can these guys play together or can they not do we need to move on from one or the other for the wizards or is there some kind of resolution here there is no long-term outcome in which deandre ayton is a part of this team and so it's like why are you sinking these minutes in a world where alex sar a guy who was taken what was he number number two in the draft is playing 24 minutes a game for the washington wizards for reasons that i i cannot fathom because you're handing those minutes not to anthony davis at five but to deandre ayton and so it's like i just want to get to a world where ad is either playing with sar or playing as the big and we're just kind of trimming out the eight minutes or minimizing them as much as we possibly can or if you want to play ayton and sar together i don't know why you would but i guess you could go that route like just the management of the front court is so baffling to me and i understand that there are trade-offs as far as like who the forwards are alongside those guys like chris middleton is not pulling down a ton of rebounds justin champagny not pulling down a ton of rebounds if you want to play balal there eventually or aj at the four like we'll see kind of how much of a force they can be on the glass so it's like you want a certain amount of size i just don't know what you think you're getting from deandre ayton that makes sense for the present or the future contours of this team this is really where the rubber meets the road in terms of their ambitions in the broad sense versus like what they need to satisfy in the here and now and like this is what happens when you get veterans in there in order to accelerate the growth while still hoping to trojan in the development of some of your own players yep i agree i just i think there's a way to figure it out and i do think having aj in there might solve a lot of the issues in part because he's so big as a forward like him as a natural four next to ad makes some sense and honestly if you need to throw like to throw away ambitions of winning games this year that's fine too i actually like the splitter mindset of of this where he was just like when he benched bazellus he's basically like well we're trying to win basketball games now so these guys might need to learn on the fly and i need to make hard decisions and they have to learn from that maybe that's the approach with the wizards as well but i just think from a starting point i just don't know if their front court works unless sar or ad shoots with any regularity and i just don't see that happening and so then you got to be a little bit more creative and how willing are they to be creative considering all the different things they're trying to juggle at once also how capable is brian keith with all due respect of being that sort of creative mastermind when all the things you're laying out as far as like young players who don't know how to play with veterans guys who don't know their positioning on the floor trying to get ad and sar to stay out of each other's way but also contribute to the overall flow of the offense like these are coaching considerations at the end of the day and there are certain coaches you would trust with that level of responsibility and i don't think brian keith has been put in a very good position to show what he can do but the early stages of the season haven't really shown that the wizards feel like all that prepared all the time and ready for the challenges of what this roster is going to be like they feel like they're running into exactly the walls we all thought and i'm sure they all thought they were going to be running into and so whoever we need to plead with to shore up some of this rotation stuff i think is a good place to start and whether that like if i need to go to anthony davis himself and be like anthony you are shooting 20 when deandre is on the floor please play the five part time i'm not even asking you to start just part time so this is like a frost nicks in thing with you and ad i don't know who i'm i don't know who i need to consult with whether it's him or brian keith or whoever but like i'm willing to do it i'm willing to take meetings what's g whiz up to these days he doesn't have his voice in the right ears clearly because i know g whiz would be with me on this yeah i was surprised that they brought keith back for this exact reason it does feel like they need to do a lot of high level jenga playing here and i just don't know if he's really suited for that especially because he came in here and he more on the developmental side and this just seems like someone you want a veteran hand in order to be telling guys and speaking hard truth to veterans like actually you know what you do this not this and so hopefully they figure it out because i do think there's a lot of talent on this roster it's just about deploying it yes and i think identifying aj debon so kind of pointing to the gap where he exists like we have to do it we're talking around the elephant in the room here which is the most important washington wizard has not yet been on the floor and maybe he'll help that maybe he'll complicate it i really don't know how that's going to shake out like he's going to be trying to find his way as a pro too but i do look forward to seeing what he can do in the rookie of the year race that we outlined earlier just how exciting he is as a prospect to watch the wizards are only going to get more interesting from here i'm just not sure if they're going to get better from here i think trey's been largely a positive yeah though definitely i mean shooting not so much and like some of the manufacturing to the line i could do without but he's getting guys involved i break the assist record and that's what they need they just need someone to activate some of these guys because there aren't a ton of ball handlers on the court and that's honestly i think what they're struggling with a lot this far like maybe that's aj maybe that's some of these other guys there are like four or five plays every game where he makes a swing a kick out a cross-court pass sets up trey johnson or somebody else for like a wide open shot and it's like that is the exact look that did not exist for the washington wizards last season and the gap frankly from going from disaster team in terms of turnovers to even like a middle of the road one in terms of turnovers is night and day different so he he's bringing a lot to the team anthony davis too on both sides of the ball is bringing a lot to the team it's more about the way that all of the pieces fit and the two visions of the team that are now colliding at full force no one really knows but i would like time to see whether the good players in there can sort themselves out and maybe like not the less good players frankly all right do we have time to do a little lightning round here yeah what you got a couple couple bibs and bobs before we get out of here uh first no the heat or ass really bad what's going on like the defense is so bad i i can't explain it because the personnel is is so dialed in you would think two of the having two of the best centers defensive centers in basketball would like lead to at least a competent defense but they just look completely out of sync it almost feels like they don't know how to play with each other in general well yeah bam and the defense which has been the most surprising thing like i understand on offense because like there's one possession that just keeps playing over and over my head is like the ball is pinging everybody's moving bam even looks like sleek and slender out there like he's just going around like you wouldn't expect a man of that size and then the ball finds him and he has to take a three and obviously he just hammers it off the side of the rim yeah uh that's one issue that we knew the defense i just i kind of don't it's kind of incomprehensible i i'm baffled by it i i do think the one thing that feels concrete and that we can probably all agree on is that the clay thompson minutes have been kind of a disaster and he is getting isolated and picked on and run through in ways that like you just can't and be a starter level player or a player playing starter minutes on a team that aspires to what the heat aspire to and so it's like it feels sooner than later that he will be pulled from that spot unless something really dramatic changes in terms of the way he's matching up or how they're deploying and all that kind of maybe they change their whole scheme to compensate i mean they have a lot of versatile defenders otherwise but that's a lot of trouble for clay thompson i know they need a shooting i know they want his movement but he has been a disaster and i say that as someone who like i was a clay optimist as far as what he could bring to this team and what his shooting would mean to them like they were so desperate for that exact kind of thing but if the defense is like this his presence feels unsustainable and that's a crazy thing to say a couple games into the season but it feels a his movement is more like a tugboat rather than like a go-go boat you know um but he's in miami isn't this where the go-go boats live you would think so but maybe he's just stuck to his power yacht or whatever he has going on there um i assume they'll make some lineup adjustments because the shots are there for three-point shooters to hit and that's like the one devil's advocate i think you could play it's like oh maybe pellet larson plays in some of those minutes maybe certain shooters just hit more shots that's the one devil's advocate i think you could play it's that would go a long way ultimately though man i just with what is bam doing out there offensively for you even if you figure out the defense even if you figure out the shooting i just he just seems like he's constantly throughout his career with the heat been asked to do so much more and do things differently this just feels like a bridge too far unless his shot just becomes like a miraculous growth all of a sudden and i think too like for as much as you want to rely on that at a certain point you just leave a guy kind of rudderless in terms of his ability to tap into what he knows works or what he usually tries to get to and he kind of feels in that space right now like he feels like a non-entity on offense for long stretches of these games in a way that cannot be the case like you have to empower him you have to be activating him you have to be putting him in positions to succeed versus just asking him to help everyone else get comfortable along the way and i think that applies defensively too where the fact that the heat are not a good rebounding team. the fact that they're giving up so many offensive boards to me speaks to the fact that no one there feels comfortable no one there knows where they're supposed to be like the scramble is so constant that a team with Giannis and Bam and Bobby Portis like they should be a really high level rebounding team and I know they're making up for you know guys like Clay who are not a factor there you know Davion Mitchell can be like feisty but ultimately is like quite small they have some issues as far as like team wide rebounding go but like it should not be this bad and it's only this bad because nobody feels content in their positioning and to really understand what they're supposed to be doing yeah a couple other last things here Pacers got booed off their home floor at halftime because they were once down 30 and then down more uh it seems like they rebounded against the Nets today I will say that I'm a little worried because they've already started to encounter some injuries and we've talked in the past about how much having everybody going there is so important to their flow but just like a note to throw out there something to watch there's still a lot of time to get right there Halliburton has looked good in the second halves against the Pelicans first and then today against the Nets so just something to track uh I have Jalen Smith takes but I'll have one more I kind of want to hear what are your Jalen Smith takes I just think he's interesting you know he's just a mobile shooting center yeah that I think tops out as a decent center on a bad team ultimately would probably best be best suited to be the backup center of the Indiana Pacers but unfortunately uh I don't know if we can go back in time I kind of want to do a bit where we literally go team by team through the standings and I tell you who their backup center is I'm like Jalen Smith or Paul Reed Jalen Smith or you know let's say not Colin Murray Bolas but Jakob Pertl you know we just go spot by spot and you tell me how many guys you would take Jalen Smith over I think the answer is much higher than the average NBA fan would believe yeah that's why you get an hour into this podcast I know that Jalen Smith is pretty decent pretty also just has the thinnest legs I've ever seen for someone that big is that why they call him sticks because he's not number 11 and I'm gonna be honest I didn't I didn't know his name was sticks I didn't know that was a thing um but I'm I'm amazed that we got this far into the pod before you started commenting on one of these guys bodies you know it's really a new record for us it is weird that I keep doing that I was thinking back to the Jacoby pod I'm like wow I really don't know what to do with this guy I don't know what to do with this guy I don't he was talking about rippling muscles a lot you were in rare form I like we brought in Jacoby it just brought something out of you it was it awakened something it's a new level of muscle watch literally watching their muscles um last thing here uh Gary Trent jr was signed for four years 64 million yeah how much is he playing oh zero minutes interesting very interesting can't imagine there's anything to that you know the the bucks are really deep so uh it might be tough to find playing time for a shooter there but it's so true yeah somehow hasn't made it onto the court I mean they are they are to be fair as good as the mighty Miami heat so maybe it really is just a depth issue yeah uh anything else you want to get to here I think we covered it Justin I mean you know we're we're trudging on without Kyle we have our own absence to to account for over here but I think we acquitted ourselves admirably all right are you looking forward to the what is it six hour flight to Minnesota tomorrow what what's what's like the rob in flight entertainment um I'm usually a get on the plane go into my full sensory deprivation tank airplane pillow glasses or mask of some kind headphones and I'm like out before the plane even takes off optimally but you know sometimes you gotta squeeze in some work you gotta watch some movies you know it just depends but I think I'm gonna pass out pretty hard on this flight I gotta really get my energy level up for this live show the people are paying they're expecting a good performance from us like I can't be I can't be lagging going in there need your beauty sleep is what you're saying I don't know if it's beauty sleep but I potting sleep that's for sure okay that's important um all right well look forward to seeing everyone out in minneapolis on tuesday we will wrap it there for today thank you to victoria valencia thank you to isaiah blakely we'll be back i believe the show we're recording on tuesday it will be out on wednesday so look for a day earlier than usual we will talk to you then 41 plus and present in select states for kansas in affiliation with kansas star casino or 18 plus and present in dc or wyoming opt-in required bonus issued as non-withdrawable profit boost tokens restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount see terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in maryland hope is here visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24 7 support in massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or text hope ny in new york for louisiana call 1-877-770-7867 this episode is brought to you by whole foods market fall is here and whole foods market has everything you need for cozy meals seasonal treats and easy entertaining elevate your hearty dishes with tasty bone-in beef short ribs or new york strip steaks with no added growth hormones or antibiotics and as the fall evenings draw in why not get ahead of cold season with immunity shots herbal teas lozenges and supplements make sure you look for sales throughout the month shop fall flavors with higher standards at whole foods market