The Most Intriguing Draft Outcomes. Plus, Austin Reaves Re-signs and Next Questions After the Giannis Trade. | Group Chat

Hello and welcome to Group Chat, I am Justin Barrier, and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle, man, Kyle who hasn't left that couch for multiple hours, we flipped on the zoom and he was just there straight to camera talking about Henry Vsart. Yeah, man, that's the thing about, you know, parenthood, don't stop, yesterday was my son's six birthday. Oh, no, it's a draft. It was like a sitcom where I'm like running around to different parties and just making everybody unhappy with that, so anyway, now it was good, so, but yeah, we finished at what, 2 30 in the morning and then up at 7 30 to take him to camp and we're just, we're going, man, you know, we're asking who has a heart out, I said, I might just pass out, I might just hard pass out at some point, but I'm ready to roll. I think there's a decent chance you died doing what you love, which is doing draft breakdowns on this podcast. Again, like I would, I would think at this point, you have written blurbs, rewritten blurbs, mocked and remarked, potted with us Ann Bill and other parties several times through these players, is there a single like non top three guy who you think you have talked about or brought up the most more than anyone else in this draft? Oh, dear God. No, I think what keeps coming up is guys that I've had lower people keep going like, what about that? And asking me about Chris and I can cream Lopez. So I've kind of just kind of walked those circles a whole lot and then quaint and so there's guys we can get into, but man, I'm just loopy, honestly, right now. Do you all like talk to yourselves around the house or just do like stuff like that when you're when you're I did unfortunately by product of working from home too much and also having just podcasts in your ears all the time is just I think I've just become a bumbling old fool at this point. Oh, yeah. Well, especially if you have a pet, if you have a dog, then you can project your inner thoughts outward and it doesn't seem as insane, but obviously it's insane. This is a sad shit. I gotta be honest. This is who we are. I don't know what to tell you. I was like singing songs, I did like a prolonged just I was just singing a song as I was changing clothes and I was like, dude, you are in outer space right now. It's like you are just out there. My favorite part of the draft I think was when we were really in the thicket things Kyle was just banging out blurbs and then Rob is out there just like trying to get off as like cutesy texts about like dare is a cuff. Like it was really like Rob like, oh, this is fun and exciting. I know this guy and then it's like cut to Kyle just like draped in blood like he's the DMX album cover or it's the guy sitting next to Jesus. I didn't even see that text. I was just so in the zone so whatever cute text you made I gave it the old Martian Lynch arm bar. I didn't even see it. Sorry, buddy. You write it off now? No. I'll let you give you a chance. I won't and I won't be rescinding it. In fact, I'm going to unsend it for your chance so you never get you never get to see my bits. Must not have been a cute. Really? Yeah. All right. We're going to get to a lot of stuff today in the back half of the pod. We're going to talk some Yannish trade ripple effects go through all the next steps from the biggest trade thus far in the offseason. But first we got to talk about the draft so we're going to go through some draft. Most intriguing outcomes will do that right after the break. This episode of the Ringer NBA show is presented by Ferrero. The world is watching go all in for your team this summer with Ferrero. Enter for the chance to win a range of prizes just by purchasing your favorite treats. Like Kinder Bueno with an irresistible chocolate wafer and creamy hazelnut filling or Kebler chips deluxe cookies with indulgent and rich chocolatey chunks or Ferrero Rocher squares with crunchy hazelnuts and milk chocolate wrapped in iconic gold. Go all in by any two Ferrero brands and you could win one million dollars official rules apply. Learn more at go all in and win dot com. All right. I'm going to talk about a bunch of stuff here because surprisingly enough, this felt like the type of draft where maybe the focus was on the top three, but I felt like there's a lot of interesting things happening throughout Kyle. I have to imagine this is maybe a function of the draft being so deep or do you feel like maybe like certain teams were in certain situations that might have led to a lot of intrigue. But I don't know. Just felt like this was a more robust offering from start to finish in the draft. I don't know. Robust. I mean, do you think you're saying like in terms of like transactions like there was a lot kind of moving and shaking? No, no transactions. Unfortunately, we didn't get literally any player trades within the draft. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, but maybe it's just the function of like being more plugged into it than usual, but I just felt like there were just more names and more intriguing fits going to the point where it's just like a team like the Spurs drafts a big two of them later in the draft and like that felt like it had more major ripple effects than typical awareness. Just like, oh, the Cavs just got this guy who may or may not play. Well, the depth, I think, the depth sort of forgets the sort of thinking about the possibilities. And I think there's more of that than the nebulous like, you know, two years away from two, being two years away type stuff. Like there's a lot of guys. There are a lot of just kind of quality role players, guys who project as quality role players starting after probably around the 10 range. So I think the just pie in this guy imagining those things was a little more realistic in this draft. Great. We don't know for sure. We may come back and be like, wow, we were that that's always the thing whenever we're doing grades. We're talking about is it that the draft was really good or was it just that it was consensus? So we're just sort of in our own sort of echo chamber of thinking that it's good. And maybe it won't be times going to have to sort of inform those things as we go. Well, I think it doesn't form the decision making at least for now, whether it ends up being true or not, teams under the same impression. And I think you can tell some of that just by how few teams did end up trading out of even later first round picks for the sake of getting better and help. I think there's enough hope that some of these guys can come in and play if not immediately relatively soon. Yeah. Well, I mean, one of those and I think the most intriguing situation coming out of this as certainly as we look toward next season is like what OK, he did. I just thought like how do they end up getting basically exactly what they need it with their two picks, one, they actually took two guys who I think you're going to be contributors for them. You might not even be able to roster these guys before they dumped Aaron Wiggins before the draft. But when you think about it, it's like, well, we need a little bit more juice. Clearly, Jared McCain is someone that succeeded for us. We don't know the future long term with Isaiah Joe. And so like, we'll have a succession plan for our succession plan for our succession plan, basically guard and they get benefits, thirds, but getting a day, Mara Kyle, like, it seems exactly what they need not only because Isaiah Hart and Stein has one more year left on his current deal. We'll see if they bring him back. He's not a team option. Sorcerer didn't play next year, so they could use a backup. But if you look at like what their biggest obstacle is, it's Wembee, who is a giant human, and they just drafted with their first pick at 12, another giant human who could potentially be like a guy that they just throw out there and like, that's their counter to that. That felt like a really important pick, if not like maybe the most exciting pick. Yeah. The point I was making in the grades is that, you know, OK, C is obviously going to want to run this back and just like bring back who they were during their title run, because as good as that series was, and their spurs were great, and they met the challenge in a lot of different ways. I think everybody watched that and kind of knew, you know, I know Fox was Gimpy, there, nobody's perfect at that time of the year, but the, but the thunder were missing. I mean, arguably they're like second offensive option. Chet really hasn't big. He's clearly sort of, I don't even know where he is in that conversation at this point has a lot to prove. But Jada was out. And you know, Jada was a dude who in the finals, ascended and we were just like, I remember the conversations we had about this where we were like, oh my goodness. This opens up so much at a high level for them. They didn't get to run that back. So not only I think do they want to go ahead and do that and be what they were before adding Mara. And we can talk about been at Sturts. Maybe I don't know if he'll impact that as much in the short term, but adding Mara gives them the depth, like we said, Wimby's unavoidable, you know, and I don't even know that it's so much that Mara's going to go out there and defend Wimby. I think he's just an obstacle because I personally think Wimby would roast Mara in 101 situations because he's just so much quicker, so much bender and things like that. That's not a super hot tech. But I do think that Mara, if they do run it back and they get to similar to where they were, he also has so much offensive skill in the half court that I think he adds another wrinkle for them, which is a funny thing for a team to be in of their, it's a funny position for a team like them that has so many options and so many things coming back to be like, oh, yeah, we added this other compartment that could also be a legitimate thing. It's such a great developmental situation for, I mean, obviously anyone in any position, but especially for Biggs to come into OKC, we were talking about a di Mara and what would happen if you went to the Warriors earlier this week. That's like a pressure pack you have to play. You are one of the like few non quentin post true biggs on this roster. We need you to contribute something very specific. If he ends up playing a significant role, a minor role, if he ends up not being a part of the rotation at all next season, I think all three of those would be acceptable outcomes. And in the meantime, there's such a clear roadmap between the biggs that OKC does have where you can see what Chet does defensively against the vast majority of the teams in the league and start to map what you bring as a di Mara on to what Chet does. And to what you're speaking about Kyle offensively, like Isaiah Hartenstein's high post passing, short role passing. It sounds like that's something that Mara could potentially expand for them too over time. So there's just like a great combination of all the infrastructure you could want. as a young big. A lot of the cover that you need as a young player who's going to make mistakes, and some really good guys to learn from in the process. Yeah, it's just like it felt like a lot of the guys who seem like they could make an impact soon, either because of where they are in their trajectory or because the role that they're going to fit. I just landed in very intriguing situations. I think Yaksa Lindenborg is another one, obviously going to the Warriors. He's just a big athlete who despite being 24 seems like he still has a lot to figure out. Certainly Kyle, I mean, you reference this to a bunch in your draft coverage, but it seems like just maybe emotionally or maturity wise. That to me feels like the exact sort of thing that the Warriors need because I think you could mock them a bunch of other sort of players, but they need size, especially as Dreman kind of sunsets into a different phase of his career, but also because as we've seen so many times, like they're at their best with skill and just being able to move the ball and play their preferred currestile of offense, Lindenborg just seems to like split the baby in a way that I think will benefit them, potentially as soon as next season. Yeah, I think so. It's a funny thing where I think we reference this to at one point that there's a hilarious contradictory thing of there's there are worries about his two biggest worries are his age and then his maturity. It's like that's really, and maybe it's that they those two things just kind of come together to create an even more exacerbated megazord of worry, where you're just like, damn, it was just one of the other, that would be okay, but he he adds a lot of things. I mean, he's going to add a spot-up shooter. I know he can do that stuff. I know he's a good connective passer. He's a really versatile defender. So I think the veteran kind of leadership of that team is going to create a nice kind of construct for him to fall into. He's he's kind of in the like if you look at the like Christian Leneas and he the guy that did like the kingdom phylum class thing with the animal taxonomy, you know what I'm talking about? I know what I'm talking about. I don't know who you're talking about. I think it was Leneas. I believe you. I'm you get that straight off the dome on like two-hour sleep, kingdom phylum class order family genus species. So if we're talking about if we're talking about where he is in the in the sort of taxonomy of forwards. He's kind of over here in like a Marcus Morris PJ Washington, but he has a little I don't know what you want to sprinkle in there with the self-creation stuff that he shows, but that's the type of player that he is. So very very skilled, very dynamic. And I think the Warriors will get a lot out of him. Can we circle back to Bennett's stirs for a second? Absolutely. So so we're in well, I'm in first of all the fact that O.K.C. I believe gave up two seconds to move up to this spot to get their guy. Always of note to me. One spot, right? Just one spot. So clearly they had some intel that he might be off the board or at least worried about it of note. But where is he in the larger like Jared McCain, Isaiah Joe word cloud? Like what is it that he does potentially that those guys don't or what is it that they do that he doesn't? Like how are these guys either redundant or kind of separating from each other? He's his pace is the big thing that I would say Jared just sort of like drowns you with get on it, get off it quick, cut like he's a little more frenetic. A lot more energy to the way that he plays. Bennett is, Bennett is like a slower beat per minute type guy like he's he's methodical. He kind of gets the spots. He kills you with just micro transactions and pick and roll like he's he's just sets people lures them into his pace. He makes contact with the screen. He also the thing that I've mentioned on other shows elsewhere too is just that he he probably he cared one of the biggest picking roll loads in college basketball for like the last four years. He also played an insane amount of minutes. He was always surrounded by guys that he was elevating and sort of Helio kind of settings. He's going to for the first time have a chance to show the thing that I think he'll give the most impact with which is just his shooting. He's he is a great shooter. He's a really compact motion. He gets into his act his motion really quickly. I think that's going to be helpful to okay see pretty early, pretty quickly. So I'm interested to see if these two picks it kind of it makes me wonder about how those two picks affect the topitch granted, you know, topitch has things going on outside of his control. I don't know if he like hurt his back skateboarding. I don't know the story there. So I may be wrong. But and then the Sorber thing Sorber is a player than they had a lot of faith in. I'm like are they or we just trying to spin all these plates and none of them are really winners of losers. It's just we see what we get as we go could be. Yeah. I mean we've talked about this a bunch, but certainly with case and walls and some of his comments coming out of the like end of season press conferences. But like it's not just the Z's of more that they're going to have to deal with. I think they're just going to have to deal with the fact that like there are so many good players on here. And not all these guys are going to play to the point where you have to wonder if like have they just already moved on from Sorber. Seeing Presti had a very seeing Presti type comment about like the the value that they have with picks and they they always want to just get the most out of those situations because they're so it's just Presti's resources for any franchise let alone a small market team that isn't going to go out and like swing in free agency. And I get all that. But I have to imagine certain guys feel a certain way and Thomas Sorber who didn't get to play but was still drafted highly last year probably sees himself as a big part of this. I think Dan Wakey of the athletic had a good piece about him learning how to win from the bench as he was watching the thunder kind of unfold in front of him. Just like so so what like like maybe I have to fight for even backup minutes at this point. Maybe the thunder have this all laid out Rob. Obviously they think about these things to the level that like I find like super impressive. There's just a logistical acumen and like maybe Hartstein goes and then all of a sudden it's Mara in Sorber and maybe this is all for not all this worry. But this seems like just like a real abundance problem that I've never seen a team have to really deal with. Yeah I mean they're in the one roster maybe in the entire league right now that feels like fully future proofed in that way where yeah they do have the contingencies on contingencies they have the option of like okay if we do need to trade as a heart and shine if we do want to trade or at least kick the tires on moving Jada at a certain point if we need to move case and Wallace all of the backups are already installed and so then you can be really like experimental in terms of what the returns are on some of those deals. But also you just I think you insulate yourself from a lot of problems and that's something I was thinking about with this pick as well with Bennett Sturts is like it didn't end up being a big deal in the playoffs because Isaiah Joe just like didn't have a good run Jared McCain obviously had some incredible moments. But those two guys on the floor together actually were like a nice combination of the regular season and so when you're thinking about what gets the thunder through the first 82 in a way where you know hopefully Jada is even healthier at the end of the season. Hopefully Shay can be even fresher at the end of the season. Some of it comes down to just stringing together some of these lineups of guys who may technically be 9th or 10th or 11th guys in the rotation but all of a sudden you throw them out there together in certain combinations and they just work. These are deeply competitive human beings at the end of the day and they all think that like they should be at a certain level. Yeah, like and this is just not even just like the NBA. This is like just like a human man problem in in the world right like you throw an open ESPN job out to a bunch of journalists and they will fucking shiv and stab all over the place just to get that right. So y'all should hear this things JV says before this pod starts about how he's the alpha of this podcast and he's and he told me he need to sit down he told me he thinks he should be hosting the Bill Simmons podcast. I heard that. I thought that was I thought that was little rich. I just started making progress and you guys are going to throw me under the bus here. All right, thanks. All right, who else am I going to talk about? Do you want to finish out the Michigan guys? I know they're like bigger like we didn't talk about the top three yet, we didn't talk about the guard tier. We'll get to all that but I found that like this part of the draft Kyle was the most intriguing because like things kind of took a curve when the Dallas Mavericks took more as Johnson obviously Dusty May our god Dustin May is out there in Dallas and like the clearly this this might have shown that like maybe he thought more as was the best player on his team and maybe not Yaxle or even Mara. That was insane. Sorry, Kyle, that's a co you off the like the idea there you well look we were just talking about how rare it is to get a coat of college coach in this kind of situation to begin with then his team as a chance to draft one of his three favorite players and they have to go in front of the basketball world and pick favorites. I don't know that we've ever seen that before. I don't I think it must have been in place or he must have been at the top of their board before because it would be really stupid to hit yourself to a to a contract like that and just because of a coach I mean I don't I don't see that I mean I think it's probably just a nice additive where it's like okay and all it's a bonus that okay yeah he knows Mara's because Mara's was coveted by all kinds of people but I was curious to flip it he was he was on one of mine like most intriguing lists just because and I would flip this back to I guess you were out of it as the Dallas guy or I don't know if you pay more attention to Dallas than other teams but the thinking here what do you think that I was curious about what because he he adds some things that you know they have PJ on the wall on the it's just I don't I'm curious to see like I'm curious what the thought process was what you think it might have been I think it's probably a level of insulation I mean my assumption would be that the hope is that he and Cooper are the forwards together long term and that this is a nut yet another to invoke the name again kind of PJ Washington type flexible defender where they can move him around the board a little bit where he can take some of the assignments off of Cooper shoulders so that he doesn't have to guard you know the best the reason the leak if that's a viable thing that Mara's Johnson can do kind of on a regular basis but I'm I mean I'm I'm so trying to figure out. who he is offensively? Is he just going to be kind of a pick and roll finisher? Is there any more flourish to his game that you think can play off of the versatility of someone like Flag? Somebody, I don't know if I should say this, but I guess what I'm going to. Somebody texted me, I won't say who, that he's like SSRI beef stew. Basically, this is Christ. He's a calm human being, but he also plays with, it's a little more contained fury. He's very aggressive. He's nasty around the basket, but his offense is kind of in that realm where it's like, he tries to dunk everything, great screener. But I think the defensive versatility is, you mentioned him guarding bigger threes. I think like bigger playmaking kind of forwards, Morez is going to be a great weapon to have on your on your tool belt. So yeah, I thought a lot about the guys who are making the picks at this point, Messiah Jerry, what do we know about his player type? It's just literally six, nine guys who have skill and are physical and like make an impact defensively. I thought it was funny that the Raptors, I want to get to this later, but the Raptors just kept doing that by getting Alan Graves later in the round. It's like, oh, we're turning the page and still trying to do the same thing that we've been trying to do for 10 years, but with Bobby Webster in place there. So that's one, but Mike Schmidt's obviously now in charge there as the GM. I know Mike a little bit from his time up here, and the one thing that I've always appreciated about him is that he's been very steadfast in his convictions. I think when you're in that seat, I think a lot of the time you can get pushed around based off of like what you should do or perhaps what your owners want to do. Mike was always like, this is my one shot. I'm going to just pick the guys that I believe in. He's like, fuck it. I like y'all. I'm going to pick, we're going to pick y'all, right? And so I think that kind of like fuel this where a lot of Mox Kyle had like Raiden Burries in this, obviously the guard tier, we all thought it would go in succession. Zagging, I guess slightly, it seemed like some people did like more as more than others, but like to me, that like spoke to me, we were just like, oh, he probably just likes this guy and they're just going to do whatever they want. That was the, that was the sort of, you know, diverging train tracks thing that I was curious about was like, there must have been some threshold with the quality of the guards there because their half court offense does need help. I mean, whether or not, and you know, and then you've got Kyrie coming back from injury, we know Cooper made a lot of progress as a as a as a playmaker and as a just a processor of the NBA game, which we knew that he would, but that was kind of that that line was what I was curious about was like, they didn't really, I guess they didn't want to sign up for, you know, they didn't want to enter the small guard business any further than they already are. So I guess, but Murez, Murez makes a lot of sense, defensively, maybe, maybe they'll just try to answer that question and through other avenues. Yeah. What do you want to do next? Can we talk about the Grizzlies? Sure. I think in particular, because we talked about Cam with the prospect of like, what would happen if the jazz drafted him, and where is he fitted to that kind of complicated mix of size and skill and how would all that fit together? I mean, this is really energizing in a way that I think like, the Grizzlies are a team that clearly need a bankable dependable element in their rotation, a way to like truly pivot away from the John Miranda era into something new and even more exciting. And we can talk, go back and forth, I think on which pieces are involved in that sort of like core, young core that they have going, but the just the idea of Kambuser, Cedric Coward, Zach Edie, Jalen Wells, that's a really interesting collection of players really skilled, really talented, really good defensively, potentially. I'm just like excited to watch the Grizzlies in a way that I wasn't even expecting coming into this draft. I think the Grizzlies are going to be fascinating going forward, and perhaps might be the most interesting case study in how the lottery new rules kind of ripple into teams that are trying to rebuild on the fly like the Grizzlies. And so Cam obviously has a lot going for him, Kyle had a number one on his board. We talked about like how he would fit into Utah. Honestly, it's so funny, like I'm so anchored in like thinking about him to Utah now. It's almost like I have to rewrite my brain trying to force him into Memphis. But clearly it feels like they have something going very well, but they still ultimately will need a driving force. And I do wonder if they're the worst type of team where because of their market, they can't just like import this guy for agency, they really need to draft their way to that. Like how are they ever going to get the drinks during talent like a Darren Peterson or like the next version of John Miranda, because it seems like what they built is a really nice context for that. What they're going to need is that thrilling, exciting pop, and it just becomes a little bit harder because the lottery is the way it is in order to get that. And if you're in this market, like I just don't know how else it's going to happen. Well, can I float an idea of how they might get that guy? Please not only do they own all their own picks, they have five additional first round picks over the next five years as a result of, you know, the Desmond Bain deal and now the Jaron Jackson deal. Like and some of those could be potentially pretty juicy, especially with the flattened odds where, you know, you're you're looking at a swap for a team like Cleveland or Minnesota or something. And in theory, that's not a great pick. But a couple of injuries, maybe one of those teams ends up in the late lottery. Maybe the eastern conference is even more competitive than expected. Crazy things can happen. And I think some of these picks could end up being bundled together into something at least pretty enticing. Maybe not for the premiere guards in the league, but like a good, as you say, like driver of offense that fits their timeline, I think they could be in the market for some of those guys with the combination of those picks, plus a lot of other good players in the mix here with Scotty Pipp and Junior and tied your room and all these guys like, they can put something together that could entice a lot of teams. This is the stability of Kim Booser affects the possibility or the value of John Moran at this point, because your your leverage is pretty damaged, obviously. And you just kind of think like not only is this like I keep using the term mouthwash for this show for our audience, swish and spit, not only see that, it kind of makes me wonder if he is enough of, you know, a structural force for a team that he could affect the way job that's into this team. I mean, I just want just just for the audience listening at home, is that a more head state zip up that you have on? Yeah, man. Go Eagles. Okay, because it seems like you really want them to figure this out with job because more head state, no, crushed by job actually, they were in the same conference as him, but they were just like this, yeah, kindred spirit. Yeah, they're just like local teams, because it seemed like in your, I think what you was your last mock, you were touring with the idea of like what if job played with Peterson, at the very least you keep the flame alive in the way that I think few people are a job who are just kind of ready to turn the page because it's been such a catastrophe of late. I'm just like, is there an act two? I mean, how old is he? He's probably 26. Is he 26 right now, John Maria? So just if you're not going to get a great return for him, I just kind of wonder if that is a zag that could happen. And if it did happen, I mean, the spacing on that team, if you think about it, Booser, if you have a shooting four or five like that, you have a bunch of shooters around them, you have a lot of length and size. You've got this guy who I guess it all just kind of depends on who job wants to be at this point because there's no team out there that sees him in his minds either, the same way that he does in his own minds eyes. So I'm just kind of like, is a come to Jesus kind of pivot for his value seems like the smartest thing to do. Is he going to come to that conclusion, you know, that's kind of what I'm wondering. That's the deal. I mean, for all of the talk about how they need to move on or they can turn the page and we're kind of engaging in some of that, finding a taker for job. I think is much more challenging than sitting around and hoping and praying he can just be a little better and a little more attuned to what the team needs. Like, maybe you just do hold out that prayer because the alternative, if they did put him on the market, a lot of teams just are straight up not interested, incredibly wary of the John Merrant experience. I think you're getting something probably worse than what the Hawks got for trade young. Like, I don't even know that you're getting a CJ McCallum level player in a John Merrant deal at this point. And if that's the case, you might as well see if he can be good and responsible at least to a degree in the way that a professional basketball team requires. Well, the good thing is that if that holds true, then John is in line for a $200 million extension into this. Do you want to do the flip side of this? Because in Utah, yet again, they stared a draft prospect in the face as he was like, I don't know if I want to go there. And they're like, and they tackled and they high five the ages themselves. And then just took Darren Peterson. We've talked a lot about Cam Booser there, Kyle, and wondered like how that would all work out with the Bigs there. What do you think about Peterson there? Like, is the fit easier? Do you think this team could be even better next season with Peterson in there? Yeah, I think the logic behind the Booser pick was, he comes in and he you're one of the implied things about taking Booser was we're courting a scenario where we're going to have to make moves and we talked about this on the show with Peterson. I don't think that that's the case. I think that you, it's a clean basketball fit. He goes in there. I think he fits with Kianta. You'd have to figure that out. You'd have to figure out how to get those guys to play off of each other smoothly. But I think it can happen. And I actually think it might benefit Kianta to have a little bit more that tilted away from him so he can be his true self. So he's not living and dying with like, okay, Kianta, run the show be like an incredibly high efficient decision maker be and be a great score. Like, please spin both of those plates. I think bringing Peterson to play next to Ace Bailey with, you know, Lowry, with Jerry and Jackson Jr. You're huge. You can shoot one through five legitimately. And I, you know, people say that all the time. It's like, no, man, I mean, like they this is going to be a really, really long team that can kind of protect those guys and, you know, we were talking about it with Bill and Houseless Knights. Just I think that they're one of the more talented teams now in the middle of the West. It's pretty, it's a pretty fascinating situation to be. I can't really remember a team like this that has been so dramatically unseen and different by the means that they've gone about getting to this point. I think not just that everyone can shoot too, but all of those guys can shoot on the move in a really interesting way that fits like what Will Hardy wants to do and kind of the movement of that offense. One of those things that's easier said than done conceptually to just find people who are comfortable doing that at literally every position and a lineup, but I think it really suits them. I'm excited to see kind of where that action starts as you're saying, like how much of it starts with Kionte versus Darren, but having that flexibility, I think is going to make them a really tough team to pin down, especially in the regular season. I think a lot of teams are not going to be ready to deal with everything that they throughout you, as we've seen basically any time that the jazz were healthy enough or interested enough to try to be good. If you think about the jazz, if they can create, if they can find their spots where they can get into blender mode, I think you're at the point you made about the movement shooting is really important, because some guys just can't relocate left or right and shoot the ball as well. I see it all the time with prospects where I'm like, yeah, this guy can kind of shoot it, but he needs to be set for a second and, you know, feel the wind before he lets it fly. And, you know, this group of jazz guys can absolutely want to relocate. And, you know, as we've seen it, this is a popular sort of off-ball cutting and shifting of spacing phenomenon in the NBA. It's just like when you're a help defender and you're taking a single step towards the primary for another team, if that guy behind you is capable of taking a step or two steps to the left and shooting it, 38-40% from three, that's a big difference between, you know, a guy who can just take a stationary shot. And these guys all have quick shots, too. So it's interesting on a lot of levels. It's a thrilling proposition. What they could do together, both George and Peterson. I think with Boozair, there was something spiritually synchronistic to jazz teams in the past where it's like just methodical and efficient and exacting, but the two of them together, like I was trying to think of like, when's the last time we had these just like two zippy guards who could really just like fill it up quickly, playing off each other, doing banjo style. Like, it doesn't really happen much anymore. If anything, it's usually more of like a helios venture creator, plus the other guy who goes in and just wreaks havoc at the Kyrie and the Luka types. Like, I don't know. There's just like something there that could be scintillating. The flip side of that, though, is like how often do we see these together? Perhaps because of the overlap and because it takes like a certain personality, I think to play with that sort of like ferocity and like speed and all this other stuff. And so I do worry, especially considering what we're hearing about Peterson. On the other side of that, though, I am starting to get worried that maybe we're overestimating like what type of a guy Peterson is just based off of like a pretty weird situation with Kansas. I don't know. It's a kid. He was maybe just didn't like Kansas. Clearly, he was dealing with a lot of things with his body and like how to manage that and how to manage that in a bureaucratic system that's just like trying to bleed him, drive money, for instance. But you know, it seems like at the very least there's more room for a spark to happen when he's having to overlap with someone similar enough to him in his own backyard. Yeah, I think it's instructive for all of us to remember not to take an undue swipe at college basketball. But this is basically like these dudes are mandated to go do something for a year while they wait to play in the NBA. And not every situation is going to be perfect. There are a lot of voices in their ears. There's a lot of like conflicting motivations for everyone involved. But like Darren Peterson's job. And this is, look, this is antithetical to how I feel about the sport in a lot of ways. And so you can sense this conflict within a lot of college players. But it's like their job personally to themselves and to their family is to get to the NBA with the highest draft potential possible and the greatest earning potential possible. And their considerations for their teams, while important and clearly driving of like what makes, you know, a championship level squad at the NCAA level, doesn't have to be the primary concern there because it's not the endgame. Like it's not where they want to end up. It's not what they're shooting for. And so judging them based on that goal as opposed to like what is going to get them to the league, I think is missing the point for a lot of these guys. It's a funny detour when you're right. I mean, we all know what the end result is, you know, the high school thing went on for so long. And it's like the college basketball is this odd thing that exists within the orbit of the NBA where you have the, there's it's a great business obviously because you have these really, really old fan bases who are going to spend money and and it's it exists. It justifies its existence based on that and the interest level in it as we've seen. But you're basically asking these guys who know that they're going to be in the NBA to do this like, hey man, market yourself for a year. And if you're as good as Darren Pean, you're like, you fucking serious, man, I need to market what? What? Like I can understand how there be a little resentment or a lot of resentment on that front and how you'd want to despite your time because you're talking about generational wealth. You're talking about, whereas, you know, I know college, the money's gotten better, but you know, a million to three million dollars. It's like, it's a big difference between that and your initial rookie, rookie deal. So I understand that in the NBA, but on the other hand, you know, the NBA values it too because in that year, that's a, there's some pretty interesting filtering that goes on in that year. Absolutely. That can reveal personality, that can reveal developmental strain. You know, how you adjusted the speed of higher levels of organized basketball. So I see how it's a headache, but in most cases, it's kind of a, it's a pretty valuable necessary filter for the NBA. Sure. Listen, Peterson is a letter box Lord. He not only had favorite movies, but he had them straight off the dome. He knew what was happening. He had his four favorites locked in. And so he's a man of sophistication and taste. So don't let all these reports lead you astray. Okay. He loves interstellar. Yep. He loves the fugitive. Can we please, can we please, I've been dying to talk about this with you all? How interstellar is one of those like pop sign? If you talk to like real science people, they're just like, give me a break. Like this is so cringe. Like the science. You think the mystical time-traveling bookcase isn't legit? What's funny about that movie is it seemed like they took so much effort to get the last part of the movie like scientifically correct. I think a lot of stuff is right in it. But I think people who are all just, they resent them being it's like, it's just like, but that's what makes the swerve good. Like the setting up the scientific reality to then go like, wait, but what about heart? Anytime a movie comes, in your orbit, it tries to get like legitimacy. I just feel like, because I knew a lot, I knew a lot of jazz people or just jazz majors. I was always the less talented person in those people's proximity, but I know a lot of them. And when Whiplash came out, I knew jazz people was just, it's not like that. And I was like, this is a really good movie. I was like, what are you? Why are you so? You know, they're just overly worried about the technical aspects of it. But interstellar just has like a broy, it's emotional. It just, it checks a lot of my box. I love that movie. It's good movie is like, I'm not down for it. I just say that that one didn't surprise me. Fugitive, the era of fugitive is why I'm like, how did, how did a young guy like Darren Peterson arrive at fugitive? I was like, because it played on TNT a lot that he just kind of maybe his dad's a film buff. I was just young enough to be watching TNT. I think it's like, or is he old enough to have to have like TNT on? He's probably firing that up on Netflix. It NBA TNT, that was why I was thinking like, maybe they, I don't know, maybe it's just on, you're trying to TV on. He's a fucking guy too. He's the animal king. Yeah, suits, yeah. Waking up at 5am to charm the reruns, you know, it's all very normal stuff. But this was the clear syndication to me that like whatever concerns people had about his makeup or his background, just throw them out. Like if the Patriot, or not the Patriot, if the fugitive is among your top three favorite movies, you were raised right as far as I'm concerned. That's right. All right, why don't we go to number four quickly? Obviously that was probably the easiest pick on the board. I have to imagine like the bulls' war room was just like sipping my ties, just waiting until they could just put Caleb Wilson's name in there. But I thought him plus swain was a pretty interesting haul. I think that's what you had mocked to the bulls with their two picks, Kyle. Like what do you think ultimately? Like, I don't know. I know I'm a bulls like apologist, but like, I feel it, I feel the energy kind of coursing through this franchise. You're a bulls' apologist based on a giddy apologist. Yeah. Oh, I think I think I have just seen the vision through a lot of smoke and haze and like a lot of dumb stuff going on there. I see what they were trying to do to just didn't really do it. Well, Bryson, there's just nothing he has he just started. So I'm just kind of like, well, if you're going on the vision of the past, I'm like, what? There seems to be a spiritual synergy to what happened before over with Karnasavis with what I think they're kind of leaning towards, which is just athletes, drove past shoot guys who could defend. We're going to move up and down. We talked about this with Tate a little bit. They'll like spiritual Caruso team. That seems like what they're going, especially because they went out and basically got Nick claxed him for free. Like, I think this team is going to be super fun next year and it feels like Wilson in particular. But also like swain considering like what he could be might fit this overall vision down the road. I get the sense that we're seeing a temporary look at something just because you said dribble past shoot. It's like there's a lot of dribble pass, but we're stacking a lot of. Yeah, there's a lot of play with his face to the basket first and foremost, and then we'll get to the other stuff. Yeah, so we'll figure that out. And I was joking about this where I was. I was trying to think about like what Caleb and what Swain fit with on the roster. I was just like, this is a waste of time. Like why I'm even worrying about this because we have a GM that's starting over. So he's probably going to shift the vision. And we've got just a lot of pieces that are clunky together. They became like a small guard offloading kind of loading zone. I don't, you know, and about taking on dealing him and everything. So in terms of, uh, Swain, man, I mean, that's a broken record here. But he's just, he's, he's nasty. He's an upside play. I like him a lot. And I was saying that I could see him just succeeding, Gidey. Like I think that's possible. I know at that pick that might seem for what Gidey's grown into, um, he just could be a cheaper guy who does more both directions. And he's a big time pass or, um, really, really wiggly with the ball. Really good score inside, you know, inside the arc. Just got to figure that out that outside the arc stuff. I would just say between what I think is like the three corners. Whatever you want to call them, like Bzealous, Wilson and now Clackston, all seem like they are of the same type. Like they're just athletes who could do a little bit. I know Clackston is like clashed glimpses of doing something before. But even if he is just an athletic run up and down the core bouncy rim protector and lob finisher, like that all seems to work in concert to me. I hesitate to put Nick Clackston in that group. Uh, this, this, that trade felt so much more to me. Like, let's just see if he has a little more life in him than he's shown. Cause frankly, like all those things are within Nick Clackston. He's been a good switchable defender. Still a young guy. He's a very young guy. That dude has been asleep for like two straight years. And no one talks about, I'm not saying I blame him. But if you were trading for Nick Clackston under the pretense that he's going to be old Nick Clackston, it's going to be that he changes something pretty dramatically from the guy he's been in the most recent seasons, very possible. We've seen it tons of times, especially with teams like teams like Brooklyn, where you go to a new situation. You feel energized. You feel invested in an all of a sudden you start playing totally differently. I'm just saying let's wait and see a little bit. And that, that felt to me a little more like let's take a chance on not a damaged asset. But a guy whose reputation has taken a spill. He hasn't been exactly getting all defense votes in the when the consideration and the way that he used to. Let's see who Nick Clackston is in 2026, 2027. I'm honestly not entirely sure. I think it's a consistency issue more than anything. We'll a bull's team that seems like it's going to still be mired in sort of this like low level East team. Like is that really the team to like unlock that? I don't know, but I just like the bet they got him for free. Yeah. And it's a why not for sure the athletic like super fast. Let's just like kind of rip and run sort of style with it. I think that they're going to play. I want to talk about the guards now who went after that. So we got Wogler to the Clippers. Michael Brown to the nets a cuff to the King's Fleming's to the Hawks. And then I guess you could throw on buries. They're going to the to the box after more as Johnson goes to Dallas. Which of these Kyle do you think is the most interesting? This kind of played out how you'd expected outside of buries going one pick maybe later. But are any of these fits more interesting to you than others? I mean, I've been on record that Kingston with the Hawks. That was that was the choice. They had a similar choice to make his Dallas where it was like, you know, we probably could go big or we could go guard here. And they, you know, they chose to do to go guard. I just think Kingston, I think resigning McCallum to kind of be around him. Also was another thing that could be cool. Kingston's just really bright. I mean, you listen to him talk about the game. I think he is a lot more methodical and the half court than he gets credit for. So you get his crazy speed. And I think you get some thoughtfulness. And I think he's going to pick up the NBA game pretty quick. I just like the idea of he, they have enough creators and they have enough big creators on that team with Jalen and then, you know, knock, knock. I hate to say no. And again, I don't know. There's something about it. The QL Alexander Walker. I was going to say they have some of those guys who can outsource some of that so that it's not burdening him. But he's going to add a whole lot and make those guys good. So I could see that being pretty fun in the short term. Like I think that the Hawks are going to be pretty fun next year. Yeah, especially if he can give those guys just like any sort of downhill momentum to draft off of where, I mean, that's where he's going to get jammed up in the playoffs against the mix, right? It was when New York really batten down the hatches and Jalen had to go ISO. And he'll had to go ISO. CJ had to continue to go ISO over and over and over. They just ran into the wall like those guys are not built for that kind of offense. And so anyone that can create an advantage that other people can then magnify and manipulate and play out of. I think Kingston could potentially be doing some of that pretty immediately, if not on a full-time starting level basis. He's probably going to be in like Tyrie's maxi little brother mode for a little while with them. That's my expectation, but he'll he'll be a pretty promising thing for them for the future. So ultimately the pelicans swapped Derek Queen for Fleming's, right? How do we feel about this? Because I think when it happened, it seemed like a catastrophe. And I still think it was because there was a big possibility that this might have been a higher pick and all of a sudden. It's Cambuser and it's just like, holy shit. Like this would have been a transformable guy. But just player for player, if you're the pelicans, I think you'd probably rather queen. It's a little mixed because of who else they picked in last year's draft. Yeah. But like they seem similar level of anything. Queen at the very least flashed as a rookie that he perhaps has like a really high level ceiling in terms of just his playmaking juice. Well, it's Ace of Newell too as well, right? It's like the combination of him and Kingston Fleming. Unfortunately for Ace of Newell, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I don't know either, but it's if we're talking about just like taking a flyer on guys and who they're going to be. It's the 23rd pick, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, you talked to people around the league. I don't know if you all had conversations about this, but I'm sure you did. It was more, for people I talked to, it was more just about the process. And it's about the simple logic of like, you know, if I jumped out and in the street, you know, on a busy highway. And I was just like, you know, everybody was like, hey, man, you might get hit by a bus. And I'd be like, I didn't get hit by a bus. See, everything I was right. It was a good idea to do that. It's just like, no, man, like just don't jump out and traffic like that. That's that's a bad thing to do. It's like the process is bad, even if the result didn't end up as catastrophic. I don't know if that's the perfect one or one, but I'm sure there's a better one. But for me, that was everybody that I talked to. That was about, that was what it was about. Like if that pick had gone higher, I don't even know if the Kingston Derek Queen thing. I know we can do that all day and just compare them and whatever. And we've yet to see Kingston. I think Derek also showed a lot of stuff this past year. I think he has some questions to answer in terms of how he can say on the floor and be productive in a half-court offense and everything. But yeah, it's the process was the thing that was the sticking point. The thing that might have bailed them out is three teams jumped into the top four. And so then this was like basically a worst case scenario for the Pelicans pick that became the Hawks pick. Optically, it just history will look upon it a little better than they should. Hopefully so. Do you want to talk about A-Coff though? If you like. Sure. Going in the Kings. I love it. Do you? I just, I think he's exactly what they need, which is just anything. Any sort of juice, any sort of like leadership. Yeah. Just there are a blank slate in the way that few teams are in this day and age, considering the depth of talent in this league. And I just think he's he has something and if he's going to be that version of it at the very least, like they can build around him and insulate him from some of his potential defensive issues and just let him be like a super star in terms of like his ability to rise to the moment and play to a certain stage. I don't disagree with the idea. I just think it's it's tough for any young player to come in on what is kind of philosophically a blank slate, but technically not like there's so many guys on this team who feel entrenched because of their deals, who feel a little unmovable. We'll see what happens with DeMar de Rosen. There's certainly some rumblings out there of of what his future may or may not be with the team or the fact that he could be on the open market soon. But I don't know. It's hard to come in as a younger guy and be the the energizing, collaborating, organizing force of a locker room, right? Like you can do it some as a point guard. But like other than, I don't know, Damien Lillard, have we seen a lot of young guards come in and really take on that role immediately? I think he's going to be pretty good in terms of like putting points on the board. I think he'll have nights on lead pass where people, you know, that boy nice real hooper kind of stuff, where it's just like, see, told you, I think that's going to be going on. But I think the main thing, the step one is just the stabilization. Like he's going to come in, he's got a quiet confidence about him. I think the vets will respect him pretty quickly. And then we can combine it with Justin's guy, Alex Keriban, who they took with their later pick, which is that was an interesting like DNA of winning mindset that they took with that pick that they just don't typically do in the in the past. Like they haven't really done that. And so you start with the stabilization and then we just start sort of working forward from there. Not that a cuff is just this like neutral like flasset guy, like he's going to give you a whole lot. I think on an optimal type playoff, like really, really competitive team, you're not riding and living and dying with like whether or not he's this Helio genius, whatever it is. He's probably I think get a play with like other stars and be that just steady kind of force. But then it's just crazy to think about where they are. Like that 2023 team learned a hard lesson against the Warriors and the playoffs in that first round series. And they run it back and we're like, all right, let's see what they do. Here we go 2024 and they win what 44 games again, something like that. And then it was just over like it really. drop out of school. Yeah, there's one lesson. They're like, see, I got one bad grade on a final and they were just like, you know what? Screw this. I'm going to go, you know, start a, start a greenhouse or something. I don't know. But it was pretty, pretty crazy shift. If they need any tips on the greenhouse, just let me know. Just, just, I'll do respect to the vets on the kings right now. I don't, I really don't think you matter. Like, I think they're going to last as long as their, their contracts last. Yes. And so like, Zach Levine will be there until he's not, DeMar de Rosen will be there as long as they need to make the math work on another trade in order to get someone else in there for a slot. And like, so bonus, I guess has two years left on as deal, but like clearly they're out there trying to trade him. So the transition has started. And I just don't think like, if everyone's on the same page and just like leaning more into a cuff, then, then still trying to do difference to these guys. Like, they should be fine. Can we, can we rename him Zach Levine? Because if you go and sign him, you've swerved into a basketball ravine, that makes more sense to me. Okay, Dad. Alright, this is, this is the two hours of sleep talking, I think. Alright. Any other intriguing fits? Plenty of that's not it. Just know. I think, you're not talking about the fit of Tim Bontep's going to the, to the Hawks. Yeah. I think he's going to slot into the lineup there. I think he's good. You know, I think he might need to work on a jumper a little bit, but he's a real alchemist out there. But who's going to keep Nick Mann in check now? Like, I feel like there's, there's a real vacuum he leaves behind. I think that's, I think it's your job, you know? That's all in Texan. I mean, look, we check each other. That's, that's an important job for anyone in the Lone Star State. But I mean, I can't be doing on a regular basis. I got, I got YouTube mind. Here's a question. When we look back on this draft, let's say three years, five years from now, we're always like, how did that guy fall? Like, how did he go so much later? Why didn't they see, how could they not see it? And, um, Kai, was there any guy that jumped out to you? Maybe didn't go in the top half of the draft or somewhere in that soft middle that you're like, oh, that's the guy that I'm betting on? Uh, I mean, a lot of people are going to point to LaBaron file on falling. Um, I'll be interested to see as the, like, Intel starts to pour out about that, like, why that happened. Um, it's possibly a result of maybe people not more clearly seeing, like, the scoring upside with him and a lot of his, his strengths are kind of subtle. Like, okay, he, he's going to add, um, a cleverness, just a less obvious kind of offensive upside. And, and then, you know, he's skinny. I could see where people are kind of thinking him on that. So he's somebody that I could see. Um, he has a quiet kind of winning player vibe to his game that maybe he caused him to fall. He kind of reminds me of the way, like, Rondo fell in, like, I guess the 2006 draft, but Rondo had kind of personality issues that people were worried about. This isn't really that. Um, I, I just think LaBaron file on when all of this, the dust kind of settles. He's going to end up being somebody that's like, yeah, yeah, that was a good play. I'm not sure why he fell. It feels like swimming could be one of those guys too, right? Based on, at least based on the way you're kind of categorizing him, right? I like, especially if some of these smaller guards don't pay now, this idea of like, oh, you had the run of all these guys and this, like, burly versatile wing was sitting right there. Um, I mean, he's still a little, we haven't seen it totally yet. I mean, he's an upside bed. I don't think it was like crazy for him to get picked there because he just has so many things. Oh, no, still, but I mean in the years of now, yeah, yeah, we can redraft and he'll be hard. That can have it for sure. Remember when the Sixers traded Jared McCain, because they're like, yeah, we don't need this on ball juice guard off the bench. We've got our guys. And then they just drafted a guy with juice who can handle the law. It's interesting. We make the source of check, source of check in Philly. Yeah, different regime, but I guess I get it. Do you want to talk about Quaintance just real quickly? Because we mentioned him. Uh, the spurs just doubling down on Biggs is certainly interesting, especially considering when Quaintance talked to reporters after the draft, sounds like he's still in his words, feeling pain in his knee and has to have another procedure. And so the risk here is just all over the place. That's why I got this young and this assumedly talented would fall to number 20. But holy shit, if this gets right, like think about what happened with the one Blair, where like the no ACLs, but ended up being like a pretty credible rotation player for the spurs. It's like, what about that? But like on like multiple steroids, like the absolute best possible version, plus he could round out one of the best young talents that we've seen in this leak. I'm speculating. I know for a fact that there was pressure for him to come back early, I feel like it was sooner than he probably should have, because he came back from an ACL and less than a year. And just that body type of big athletic guy, you know, the hard cuts, the moving around, it's just like, why I come back so early. I didn't really understand that. That makes me wonder if, because he didn't look right, he came back and had a game where he looked really, really peppy and dominant. And then after that, it was like something happened. Like, I think he aggravated his knee. That was a pretty, that was a pretty big talking point here. So if he does have lingering soreness, I think it's just because he didn't take his time coming back adequately, the way that he should have. You also, you know, you run the risk of it getting re-injured, obviously, always, that's possible, especially with like springy guys of his type. We've seen that with like Robert Williams, who slipped in the drafts. But yeah, man, I mean, he's, he's so, so nasty around the basket and takes such just violent offense to anyone else scoring around the rim. That he's going to add immediately a wrinkle for them that is much needed. And if you can get a talent like this, I said it on Bill's show, I'll say it again. Legitimately, it is possible that we could look back on this drafts. We're going to redrafts. And he could be like in the five range. He's that talented of a defender. And I just think he's really, really special. And it really isn't a Kentucky thing. Like I swear to God, like I had two little guys in top 20 on my big board. Miss me with that shit. It's just, Quaint's is, Quaint's is really good. I think this could pan out and be a huge way for this verse. Well, especially in terms of archetype, it sounds like he's dramatically different from anything they'll, else they had like, especially going if he can play the four or play with Wembee and some configuration. That's, that could be really exciting. You could tell how excited they were for the opportunity because he might not play next year, or he'll certainly like seems like he will have a delayed start at the best case scenario. And he's still young. That's the crazy thing. He's only 18. Yeah. He's literally not even 19 right now. According to the draft guy, he's 18.9 years. So take that decimal points. But they're so excited about this that they got him at 20. They trade back into the draft because they need a big now. And then they get terrorists from Yukon. Clearly, just the all around great guy who's full of character moxie that you just cannot teach. But they like, they almost got like literally taught at Connecticut and didn't have it for you. Sorry. It's too crowded. Even better. Yeah, even better. Like, they basically like, oh, we need someone in the meantime. We'll get him. I know there are different types of players. Like, maybe they can even give a different type of flavor if you, if you have both them available. But like, clearly, they're just like, oh, we need Quainins because he's such a like a high upside proposition. Let's just get a guy for now just to like fill that spot. So very interesting. Terrace Reed, Rob. I've known. Do you know who that is? Have you ever heard that name before? It could be a fake name as far as I'm concerned. He's a bobson dug that to you. No, I mean, yeah, he's a crafty post guy. I think he'll, he'll get buckets in the short term. From Yukon. I mean, I gathered that part. I mean, it's not lost on me that we all ended up like dredging up our alma mater's into this because we're parodies of ourselves. But we also are who we are. So what can we do? Yeah. All right. Let's take a break. When we come back, we're going to talk about the Yannis trade a little bit and also some news that just broke while we were in the midst of this podcast. All right. As we were going deep on the draft, little news broke. Austin Reeves is staying with the Lakers in the bosom of one Luka Donchich, the bosom buddies staying together, going forward. I don't think anyone calls them that. I do. And every time it's also talking to myself. It's not lost on us that you have found a way to yet again, warm the Lakers into this podcast. So your powers why are you? What are you doing this as if I talk about the Lakers along? You do. I literally do not. You're weird about the Lakers. This is completely unfounded. And it's almost as if like you're the one running these like bot accounts, like trying to talk shit about me and like just like come up with things that just look art true. First of all, I do run those bot accounts. You have outed me in front of the worlds, but I will cop to it. This though, look, I'm just saying some of the time, it's like, oh, what team should we talk about today? What teams can we bundle together into a theme? And the Lakers have a way of finding themselves into that group. And sometimes you flex your considerable muscle in this industry. This is awesome. He's full shit. I literally do not do this with anything. I take great pride in the fact that we only talk about the Lakers, what it matters. Well, it's just. That's true. Except for the previous spot. I definitely sure know the men. If only just because I want to talk about it, it's fair. He's a one man, Syop Catalyst for the Lakers, Justin Verrier. They need the pub. -For sure. -It's true. So he comes back to the Lakers on a max but only a four year deal, so three plus one. I guess it kind of lines in with Luca is one more extra year than Luca, but that is the player option. So what do you think Rob? I think just like good piece of business, they keep him out of the hands of like another team throwing an offer at him and I guess fewer years. I mean, what jumps to mind you? Yeah, I think it's kind of a no brainer. I know there's been plenty of perspective haggling over like what this contract was. Like what this contract might look like or what it should look like, but the idea that the Lakers need to keep Austin Reeves is beyond reproach. And this is what it costs you. Like I don't know what to tell you. He's an incredible on ball creator, an incredible facilitator, a shooter who can space the floor and play with other stars. Those guys don't come cheap. They usually cost you a max. And so you can't really afford to take other steps back as you're trying to get the Luca era off the ground. And this feels just like business as it should be done for the Lakers as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, you can't you can't let that you had the good eyes and the good fortune of you know, I being Austin's talent and I don't think you can kind of let somebody else reap the rewards of his prime years. I think you need to keep that in house. I think that's a good good strategy. I think he was a max player regardless not only because of what he showed last season and just like what he's been showing over the course is career, but just out in the market. I think a lot of teams could use a player like them. So he was going to get the max and what that happens like there really isn't much haggling. It really is how many years you want on your deal. I think the big thing is like also this is why teams always try to retain their talent rather than playing like the cork board and like what can we do here and the fantasy of the trade machine. Now that they have Reeves under contract and they know exactly what they're getting into in free agency. They now have the power to spend and like figure out the rest of their team. There are ports about like what are they going to do with LeBron. I think he's probably in addition to Jalen Brown, like the big hanging lots of ball over this off season. I'm so conditioned at this point to like keep talking about LeBron and just ends up going back to the Lakers and so like I'm a little shell shocked to even like get into the point where I'm like starting to think about him on another team. But the Lakers clearly by retaining Reeves now that they can go out and do the rest of the business and we talked about last podcast when it was a perfect time to talk about the Lakers off season. Like what they were going to do to build a team around Luca because it is time to like hit the ground running get him the requisite talent and so they can be on the level that I think he's been waiting to be for since he left the matrix. I don't know that they're going to be hitting the ground running but they can at least do it at like more of a steady pace coming out of the gate and with a clear sense of not just what this upcoming season is going to be but hopefully what the shape of the core is going to be around Luca just like one more piece in the door over the course of this off season. I think it's a reasonable expectation whether that ends up being a defensive wing whether that's a replacement big they just need one more thing to nail down and I feel like they can feel pretty confident about the state of things there. I think they want to get the ground crawling. Jaws low trot canter I think they want a canter they want to canter I see what's a canter it's like a hop come on it's like a it's substrat right or is it above trot. Should be powering it's a I think this stuff has already been been done. Christian Linnaeus attacks on me of of movement. So I'm learning that a canter is a very specific three beat horse gate that's like a little over 10 10 to 15 miles per hour roughly so you know I think I think we can expect that is a canter purposeful it's different than sort of a saunter or or I think I think it's definitely more purposeful than those they've been ambling Lebron and crazy kind of forced them to amble crazy sex appeal in this podcast right now. Well, speaking of teams that are ambling why don't we talk about the Milwaukee box who finally finally traded you honest and set a coupon the other day. Maybe first blush takes overall like what's the what's the knee jerk reaction do you guys feel good that this is finally over. Do you feel intrigued by the new look Miami heat like Rob what's like number one on your board. I think it's intrigued by the heat you're always more interested in the team that's actually going to be good and it's going to be a long time before the bucks are actually good again so. It's it feels good to get excited about y'allness with the collection of players who are going to be a little more up to his competitive standard him and BAM I'm excited to see their pairing him and Dave y'all Mitchell and kind of like the hell they can unleash defensively again with BAM as part of that configuration what the heat end of doing with norm powell and if they're able to bring him back or not. My I'm kind of swirling around those ideas, especially with an eastern conference that the nicks have entrenched themselves as a fixture there everything else feels like very up in the air some of these other contenders all have moving parts moving pieces they're trying to figure out who they are as well. I think the heat have injected themselves into that conversation in a fun way. I think the proposition starts with the defensive identity that they're going to have a potentially really imposing one if you think about the ball pressure of Dave y'all Mitchell you make the backstop of what a combination I mean switchability and the room protection between BAM and between y'allness BAM a huge revelation being that BAM very timely this patch you started to add more to a higher three point rate to his game as we saw with this huge you know just utterly disrespectful to the Lakers I just want to be clear how on the Lakers side I am. And the Kobe thing here just so disrespectful to Kobe I was just going with the Lakers bit there. But and then we'll see how Andrew Wiggins kind of connects do we do how much more Andrew Wiggins can we get here but I think you start there I think they've offensive questions to answer I was going to go through the UFA's that are going to be on the market and just kind of where they can go. Cam Thomas is available I was going to say that's it as a starting point if you want to knock on that door and he will immediately answer I'm sure. Yeah I mean I think the one thing that jumps out is just spiritually he feels like a heat player and for that reason it's nice to see like these two things coming. It's not Cam Thomas you took away the honest well Cam Thomas certainly spiritually like a lot of certain types of heat players the Dianne waiters the ones that didn't necessarily work out but yeah honest in the heat definitely have a certain synergy and like they seem like it's almost like a Jimmy Butler thing where it's like he was always kind of a heat player just mentally like now he just gets to put on the Jersey it's going to be a sludge factory in terms of offense because I don't we're just assuming that they bring back Wiggins and norm Powell at this point like that is the starting point but Wiggins has a player option norm Powell is an unrestricted free agent I just assumed that they knew that they were coming back and already had those deals in place when they went out and made this but like even on top of that like they need to find like I would say three role players it is funny that the Bucks took literally every intriguing young player except for Nicole you know who unfortunately got signed to an extension I think last year during like the rookie extension period and it's now like a pretty bad deal like there's still something in there he has skill and he has size clearly like has an intuition for passing feel but like I don't think he's really the answer if anything they need more just plug-and-play role players and shooters but like it's there like they're giving themselves a chance and like after being in the wilderness post Jimmy and even during the light stage of Jimmy where it's just like this is just like kind of a bummer to watch they seem like renewed and fun again which is the best thing you could hope for it is absolutely let's get into some next questions though so like obviously everyone's at their whack on the honest just like first kind of thought about this and what the fit is going to be all that other stuff I want to go kind of spin it forward from here and interesting enough like I'm kind of curious about what the Bucks do from here they're basically they just took everything that's interesting they've just gathered all up in a little sack and then just ran off and that is their team at this point they added two picks in this draft buries and then made a man and certainly adds to this idea that they're just like trying to pull from anything with upside in order to find something to hitch the wagon to I'm curious if you guys one like let's start with the Bucks themselves like like what are these players I think you think could have and more interesting future now with Milwaukee Rob is it like are you you think where has it is Hakez with a little more space like which of these guys do you think could pop potentially yeah I mean I think where is kind of the easy answer potentially although like what do they do with him in miles and are those guys playing together or is this where I have to come off the bench in the short term or you bring miles off the bench I don't know there's a little clunky fit out of the gate but who where could be I think we're all enticed by the possibility there's a lot he needs to nail down in terms of just kind of the fundamentals of playing NBA basketball even still he is very much a work in progress but a work in progress that has a lot more allowance in Milwaukee to play through mistakes and to find himself and to experiment with all of the full range of his not just size but everything he can do like as a skill player I'm hopeful the clow wear can be a different kind of player for the Bucks than he was for the heat I also like I I'm a real believer in Casper Syracco Jonas and so like he really found himself and kind of like found his stride I would say over the last 20 25 games of last season I don't think he's ever going to be a star but I think he's going to be the kind of guy who we look up and it's just been a good connecting player for good teams for a long time by the midpoint or the end point of his career so maybe this is yet another chance where when he has a shooting slump he doesn't get pulled from the rotation when he's showing some limitations there's just like more reason to play him and keep pushing him forward in his development then Miami might have had otherwise if they kind of stick like stood pat with what they had Michael where a thing I think makes sense he's shown you know he could space the floor it's just kind of he's yet to cross that bridge I would say the heat out so are kind of in a similar boat of like they add all these really crazy physical intangibles but they're are imposing, the imposing quality of their offensive game, specifically like as a self-creator. It's like an isolation and post-ups, you just watch him and it's always fading. It's getting run off of his line. It's like taking these like really odd fading short mid-range shots where you're just like, dude, do you know a big you are? Like, you know, just go out there and impose your wheel, will a little bit, impose your wheel. So it's very touchy in there moment. I was gonna say, do we, in terms of who could level up? I mean, do we still count Tyler Hero as a young person? I would. He's entering. Interesting thing could happen here. I don't necessarily think that Milwaukee has, in getting Hero has discovered like, okay, this guy is this interpiece. You have the car keys, we have a playoff team. I do think he's gonna get the car keys. He could have an all-star season next year because he's entering his like 27 through 31 range here where I expect his production to spike. That's one thing. And you know, you only played 33 games last season. So I could see him returning kind of all-star form this coming year. I think that kind of gets us to this flip side of this question is like how many of the holdovers are really destined to be with the bucks beyond this off season, even going into the season. And I kind of would count Hero in that mix because on the one hand, you would think like, maybe the bucks just want to have something to move forward with like a temple. It seemed like part of their interest in Jalen Brown was to just like kind of have a superstar and go from there and figure everything else out. Obviously, Hero is into that level, but certainly he is a known commodity made in all-star team two seasons ago. I have to wonder like, would you keep him or would you try to spin him for it? 'Cause I think there would be suitors. We talked, I think on this podcast recently about the potential of him on the pistons. They went out and got a book of a quarry who was like at the very least similar type, right? I think like smaller, but it has more juice. - A little more jitterbug, a little more load of the ground sports car, tight turns. Like point guard gets in the paint, makes your ankles hurt when you watch him type guard. Like scoring tilted heavily. He's smaller than Hero. Hero's like gravity as a score is just completely different. It's all dribble, pull up, moot kinetic, movement shooting kind of things. They could go get them both. I don't think one negates the other. What is the Hero car comp? Is he just like a Toyota Camry? What's happening? It's a good question. I don't have a good answer for that. - Maybe a Jeep, he's a Jeep Wrangler, I think. - Oh, okay. - He's a little rugged. - Maybe a Jeep retigate. - Yeah, it's like a little rugged, but also like a little impractical for a lot of situations if we're all being honest with ourselves, but you talk yourself into it. You like the look. You know, maybe it just fits your style more than anything. - I love Jeep. - Do you think, do you think he fits that? - That's kind of, do you think he fits this style of Milwaukee and like, potentially what they could be next? - What is their style? - I know, exactly. - It's just something, what are they? I don't know. - It's like, does this couch fit in this, the framing of this house and this dirt floor? I'm like, yeah, if you can put that couch there, I don't really know what's going on in this house yet, yeah. - It's just a backroom style, just like a clump of chairs. - Yeah, it really feels that way. The rest of this roster. It's half-formed furniture, sunken into the walls. Maybe it vaguely resembles something you remember from your past, but also maybe not. But that's kind of the question, though. Is he the type of player you want to build forward with or is he best used on a team that already has an established eye identity and you add his pop on top of that? Is shooting his stretch, yeah. - I think it's more of that. I think the plan here, I mean, look, you bring him in and you see, that's what it should be. Given the opportunity, give him the keys, see what the offense looks like with even more freedom, but although I would say he had plenty of it in Miami at various stages to kind of do his thing. It's not like he's been deprived of that. But I think the model is sort of the Michael Porter Jr. Rejuvenation Plan. Of bring him in, let him expand his game in certain key areas, but keep constantly exploring the market and see if there is an opportunity to flip him to a team that's competing for a little bit more that can plug and play him in a way that they desperately need. - The Brooklyn Bridges model, right, Rob? You know, you come in, you run a little ball screen, we like it. I think the vision of Hero Early in his career is, I don't know that he ever is going to evolve into a different species of player. I'm really hung on that today for some reason. I just think he played the finals, man, as a vision of kind of what I think he is. I think he's like a second, third score, and there's nothing wrong with that if you're if you're winning. - Right, and they definitely like had him moonlight is something a little bit more, something more on the ball, someone who could be a little bit more of a playmaker. I just don't think that necessarily is, that's him. But if he does a little bit of that in concert to whatever else you have going along, maybe do it more on second units, like I think that still works for him. And so he's a good player, he just needs to find the right home. I wonder if you could say that about many of the leftovers for the Bucs though, Rob. I mean, you talked about Miles Turner, and my question just overall is like, is he just cooked at this point? Because I was just looking at the contract situation, you think it's worse than it is because of all the machinations that got him to Milwaukee, because team, we have a stretch, all this other stuff. But it's just like, it's like pretty fine. It's like mid-twenty starter quality center money. And I do wonder if his specific skill set, to be able to protect the rim, and still step out and shoot threes, is pretty unique and advantageous if you specifically have a type of scoring for that a lot of these teams have. And like, and so I wonder is there like, is there still hope for him on another team? - There's still hope. I'm not leaving Miles Turner for dead. But last season was very flat, and it was a weird Bucs campaign. They were dealing with all the honest stuff in addition to just like many other roster problems. It wasn't an ideal fit for him, given the players they had on the floor. But also just the way his career has kind of bent where I don't know that we really should consider him to be like an impact, remember, protector anymore. I don't think positionally like he's in those spots often enough to be like a real difference maker on defense. He is, he's a spacer, truly. I think he showed over the course of that pacer's run. He can also kind of step in and hit some mid-range stuff. He can occasionally take the ball off the bounce and kind of help continue your play sequences. But I think he's more of an offensive big than a defensive one. And that's a crazy thing to say, given where his career started and kind of where he staked his claim as a pro. But that's where I would hesitate. If you're thinking of him as like the stretch five with the brook Lopez type potential, I just don't think he's that guy anymore. - I think he was right to kind of take the money and run when he did because the Halliburton value thing. I think he probably read the room was like Halliburts out. This is probably the Halliburton helped him as he often does with most players. He helps them to be the best versions of themselves. He's also pushing 30, isn't he? He's not mid 20s, he has to be. He was 15 drafts up to 29. 29, 30 somewhere in there. - He was just a pacer for like 50 years somehow. You know, perpetually trying to find other fits for him. He finally got his other fit. And now it's just, I don't know. I don't know where his career is going to go from here. I hope he has greener pastors ahead. And maybe they'll be in Milwaukee, maybe they'll be somewhere else as kind of a reclamation project. - Just turn 30. Yeah, I just feel like teams do so much elsewhere and often just leave the shooting component open. And when you have a lot of your skill in some of your bigger players, for instance, like what the Toronto Raptors do. Like it would be advantage to have your five be able to step out and space a little bit. The problem with the Raptors, for instance, one, they seems like they only want guys who are six nine. And so maybe that's just their identity. Maybe they'll just beat Barnes and CMB and now Alan Graves and just everyone, it's just a different version of this Yakum style team that they had a couple of years ago. On the flip side of that, like, I don't know. Turner, if you're just buying him so low that you're just dealing with the pain of his contract and adding that to your books, like if you were to swap Rob RJ Barrett for Miles Turner, does that intrigue you at all? If only to fill a gap on your team for a guy that doesn't seem long for your team. - The thing is RJ also fills a lot of gaps to the Raptors. Like who he is as a downhill driver is something that isn't replicated by a manual quickly that Scotty Barnes is kind of an auto paced player. Like RJ is really important. It was one of their best players in the playoffs, especially when Brandon Ingram was ineffective and then hurt. The idea of Miles Turner in place of Yakup hurdle, yes, sign me up. Like clearly that's a better fit and a better player than what they were trotting out at the five. But they also have culinary boils, so I'm not bringing in anything to kind of stand in his way if I'm to round it. I wanna clear more avenues for him to play as much as anything. - Let's just flip back to the heat before we get out of here. What's like a realistic outcome for this team next year? Obviously a lot is still to come in the off season, but as we're looking at the landscape, just in the league overall, maybe specifically in the East. Like is a good bar just like top four seed in the East this year or are you already thinking more? - Well, let's play out the string here in terms of the teams. Who do we think the top six playoff teams are in the East? 'Cause that's kind of an open question, is it not? - It is, and despite the fact that the next I think we'll go in as the presumed favorite, like they still have a lot to figure out in terms of their bench because it seems like they're going to lose a lot of guys here, Michelle Robinson, and they moved around in the draft so much that they might not end up with an actual player from this draft, including them moving one spot back and just getting a clump of cash from the Lakers? I haven't seen this in so many years because I have to assume that they didn't want to make this pick. We're trying to get like seconds or whatever out of it and they've ran out of time and so they just went with the Lakers, like give us a 20 bucks in your pocket and you could just pick ahead of us. - I think they ended up doing some of both. It was like they traded down for the cash originally, then I think they traded to 30 for seconds. - And then they traded to 30 for seconds. out of 30 for more so I think they ended up with like five second round picks and the bag of cash. And so they are as we're recording this, I think they have the 30 second pick and I think they're actually trying to trade out of that one and the great Celtics did this a couple years ago. But yeah, like the first trade was just like, yes, okay, I'll take a hundred bucks. But I think a lot of that is for the purposes of trying to keep Mitchell Robinson specifically. Like Landry Shamit may not be along for New York, but I think Mitch is the guy that they're trying to find the financial wiggle room to hold on to Landry Shamit would be awesome in Miami. If that version, I don't know if they can make that happen, but that extremely true. Yeah. Maybe they just won't be enough suitors for Robinson, I assumed when the playoffs ended that like he would have a pick a couple teams, but the bulls, for instance, filled that gap with clax and so we'll see what his market is, but I think the next one will be back mostly intact. They'll have to figure out some bench minutes, but probably a good problem to have at this point. Let's say Nick's pistons, who knows what's going to happen with the Celtics this off season, but I think whatever form will probably be good enough to be in that mix, calves, and then it's an open question. How much is it going to be going to play? I imagine the heat would be right there. That's probably where I would. The Sweeney Magic. How dare you. Oh, so you're big on the magic. You see that guy's that guy's glare. I think that's at least that's 10 more wins at least, right? I think intense. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the Pacers were in that conversation too. I would put them right there in that clump. It depends on what version of the hawks or the hornets you believe in as like a regular season team, where they get a net out or they're going to make a jump or they already kind of made their jump. I don't know. Hornets got better. I think. I think better. I just don't think it's a foregone conclusion that the heater in the top four. I think I think there's a bunch of there's a wide range of outcomes, right? If you told me that the Detroit Pistons slip to like 53 wins from 60 and the heat jump up into like the 54 55 range and leapfrog them, that feels entirely plausible to me. If you told me that the heat, Janus has a season where like many in recent seasons, he's out for a significant portion of it. They don't have the depth to accommodate for that absence and they end up in the sixth or the seventh seed. I think that's totally plausible too. I think the best version of the heat is going to be quite good. How often will we see it? How long is it going to take them to come together? There is a lot of uncertainty around what their season is going to look like, even against a very uncertain Eastern conference field that makes me hesitant to say like, okay, they are a locket in top four kind of team. I do think a lot of it will be dictated by injuries and the fact that this team doesn't have a lot of depth is also going to compound that issue with Janus because he's just going to want a battering Ram as way to the rim time and time and time after again. I do wonder how much that's going to be a factor, but if he is healthy, if he plays 65 games, 70 games, this is the team that's just going to grind out wins and he's going to probably be better. I'd say top four is a reasonable expectation with the hope of being a better playoff team with they have a little bit more time in between games. I think the hope regardless is you're going into a second round series with a real chance to win and that's a place the heat have not been in a long time. They have been kicked around in the play and they've been just summarily swept or dismissed out of the first round. I can't remember the last time that the heat had like an honest to goodness chance in a genuine competitive mid-round series and so if they can get back to that level, that's a huge step up for the franchise. It's a return to form for Janus, certainly getting back onto that kind of stage and I would look forward to seeing it. I hope that's the version of the heat we get. That's kind of where I landed was yeah, 5-C second round, we have a chance to win. I just think in terms of if you look at the way the playoffs stress, your optionality down, it's like you mentioned the depth, things like that. It's like where are they going to go once the chess pieces start to move and the adjustments are going to be made. I could see some strain coming because having the honest and bam is that he's such a dominant proposition that it's almost, you have a great chance of winning a first round series as it is and I just think once the capable teams start moving the pieces around, I could see the strain of their depth being an issue, so I'd say second round ish. Yeah. This is the typical trajectory of a team that gets put together on the fly where the first season ultimately is a prelude to the second season where they have the time and the off season and the money and perhaps the resources to go fill in the connective tissue that makes a title team like team like the spurs of the thunder are so young that they could go out and buy that like those sorts of guys because their primary guys are typically making so little money when you have a basically they're trying to form a big two plus whatever else. It's just a little bit harder and it's going to take another off season to have with the big three in Miami to begin with before we get out of here, any other moves, you want to see this off season feels like there aren't a ton of big ones on the board other than what we talked about. Jalen Brown, we'll see what he ends up doing, how many twist streams he ends up doing between now and the publish of this podcast, LeBron, obviously, maybe Kauai, is there anything else? Honestly, the LeBron one is the big one for me and specifically an outcome where he is on a team that's not the Lakers and this does to your point earlier, Justin, feel like yeah, we're going around the carousel one more time with this intellectual exercise of could he be a cab or could he be a warrior, whatever? This one feels more real to me for some reason and it feels like not only are we entertaining the idea, there are like five what feel like realistic plausible outcomes as far as places he could go. That's it. That's a lot to wrap your head around as far as a player who could be a bunch of different things to a bunch of different teams who has shown a willingness to adjust to accommodate for other stars like I just kind of want to see a proper one last ride for LeBron that's not just can I fit in with this Lakers team that's still kind of steering in this other direction. I don't know if it's necessarily like superstar level, but it's definitely a guy who could affect the highest level levels of winning and it's you know, it's a train Murphy is the train Murphy going to trade ever going to happen. It seems like the stance softened a little bit on that in the until it was coming out around the draft. So night two, it seems like there's going to be more carnage tonight in terms of like stuff moving around. So be fascinating to see. We'll see or maybe he's the miles turner. Like maybe he's just going to be a pelican for life and we're going to have to wrap our heads around that. The one guy I think we need to keep an eye on is Anthony Davis here. Not only because his tray young, now a very rich man and I assume Anthony Davis is looking around being like, what the hell happened? Like how did this guy get paid and you're kind of toeing the line for me? But I do think there could be a situation where teams that missed out on Yannis are reaching for some sort of splashy move in the front court. And I think they're going to be suitors for him more than you'd expect. And perhaps that could balance out some of the bad will from the tray extension because like if they just were a way station for Anthony Davis for what is it? Like four or five months and just allowed the Mavericks to get out of their cap crunch. And they just like held on to him and like walked him around the stadium and then just sent him home only to cash in on him later. That'd be a nice little piece of business. But I do think that there are teams that are interested. All right. Let's get out on there. I think we aren't back until next Monday. So we'll enjoy some of the fireworks in between. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll talk to you next time 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas, Sarcasino or 18 plus and present in DC Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem called 1 800 gambler or 1 800 my reset call 1 8 8 8 7 8 9 7 7 7 7 7 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling help line ma.org or call 800 327 5050 for 24 seven support and Massachusetts or call 1 8 7 7 8 hope and why or text hope and why in New York Louisiana call 1 8 7 7 7 7 0 7 8 6 7