The Most Evil Billionaire Family is Alive & Well | Mariana Van Zeller

Hey, guys. If you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. I mean, I get, I got, I've never forget, getting emails from parents who told, told me, this was like a year ago, whose kid went to a, got it, what he thought was just a weed joint and inside the weed joint. And he went, it was like from a public, from a gas station. That salt sold like the synthetic weed, and then they analyzed it and it had fentanyl in it. Even when you think this shit is, is safe and you're buying it from reliable sources. Yeah, how about that 708 stuff, too? Is that what it's called? 708's that they're selling in gas stations. Yeah, it's DMT, right? What is it called? Oh, wait. Crate them. Yeah, the synthetic rate them. Yes, yeah, it's like a different. I mean, all of it is supposedly not good for you, by the way. Yeah, the 708 is like a hundred times more pulling, so concentrated. Right. They call it gas station heroin. Yes, whatever it is, it gets spoken to people addicted to it. All right, right. And others, by the way, because it's being bought at gas stations, they don't think it's dangerous. Yeah. There's just something, and that's what I think, because like also you're from Portugal. Now, I'm not the most caught up on like Portuguese politics and stuff, but I've heard in the wins that like they have full legalization. Is that fair to say? Yeah, it's not legalization. It's decriminalized. So if you're caught with up until a certain amount of drugs, if you're caught with 20 keys of cocaine, you're going to prison. But if you're caught up until a certain amount that you would have as a user, they got, give you the option, you can either go to prison or go to drug rehab, the vast majority of people, truth drug rehab, which happens to be less expensive than housing you in prison. So the incarceration rates went down, AIDS went down, drug addiction went down. It was actually huge success in Portugal. Other places have tried to replicate it. Oregon tried a similar thing, but what they failed at dramatically, I think, and why it didn't work there, is because they didn't have the systems in place that we have facilities ready to go for people. So you get caught, and then you have to wait several days because there's no room for you available yet. And when you pass a law like this, you really have to make sure that you are ready to go. Because people's lives are at risk here. And that was from what I've read, not the case in Oregon. So it's a pity, because now people think that legal or decriminalization is not a good idea. And I'm not sure about that. I've spoken about this many times, and whatever we're doing right now is not working. And so we have to come up with a completely different system. Portugal is a small country, 10 million people. We've seen it work really well there. I know we're not as big obviously as us. It can be confused. It can get chaotic here, perhaps, but I think we should try something because whatever we're doing is not working. Yeah. I'm open-minded on some sort of wild different solution. I don't know if decriminalization across the board is the way to go. Maybe it would be someone can make a good argument to me. But I do know what we have right now doesn't work. And then cynically, you know, what he says say we spend on Iran so far. Fuckin' 57 billion or whatever it is. It's a big number. It's like we can keep doing shit like this. Yeah, 37. Okay, so I was 37. Sorry, I was 20 off. You know, but then we don't have facilities for people to like try to make something work. Like at least try it if it doesn't work. Okay, but like know that you put an effort into it. If I try something, if I try to start running and show up the first day hung over after eating like, you know, a fucking. After drinking a whole diet coke or something like that, I'm probably not going to run that well. So, but if I show up hydrated and well slept, maybe like I'll stick with it. It's just human nature. But I do get so down on it when I see like we're supposed to in America, freedom and stuff. Like we're supposed to lead the world in so many of these metrics and there's things like this with drug abuse where we're like the worst in the world. I mean, the worst like a million people have died in the past 25 years more than in any war combined since the World War One. And I think constantly the idea is that these, you know, these drug addicts, as we call them, they're failing society. When I do know, I think most people don't understand that we are actually failing them. This is a huge public health crisis that's happening in America. If it was a regular disease, physical disease, which it is, by the way, but if it was like leprosy, for example, and we'd see people on the streets of Kensington, like that, we wouldn't allow it, right? But because we believe that this is their choice and they're choosing to do this, which is false. Nobody chooses to be homeless and to have gigantic open wounds and to, you know, constantly having to be revived by Narcan. Nobody chooses this life. One of, if not the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day, because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the Discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in my description below. As always, please take one second to hit that subscribe button. If you haven't already, I really appreciate that. Also, the like button is a big help and you can join my newsletter for either the link in the description. And so unless, until we realize that this is a public health crisis and sort of treated us that, we're never going to be able to solve this problem. I don't think we've been serious enough about it. We're going after, yes, we're going after the cartels and, you know, chapel's sons and mayo and all these people. And that's great. And we should, but we should equally put as much money, if not more, into curing the source of the problem. I agree. And that is addiction. I agree. And I think there has to be a real concerted effort on it and also an understanding like you just said of people of the level of compassion, like, hey. Someone else had a different life than me, maybe one time. They made a choice to do one thing and at a low moment or something like that and then spiral into other stuff. That could be you too. What's the whole quote? We're all like 10 bad decisions away from being homeless or something. And not only that, I mean, it could be a bad decision. It could have been doctor prescribed, which is so many cases, a large percentage of people on the streets out there were prescribed by doctors. So we don't know, instead of judging them, let's understand that it could be us at any moment. So we have to figure it out. This is perfect too, because I had wanted to come back to this. You mentioned this earlier and how early you were on the opioid crisis in America, which was a legalized cartel within our own borders that caused that when you look at the cyclers and then obviously people across who jumped in on this, if you will, but like making a documentary in 2008, I'm just thinking of the timeline in my head of when this started to explode quietly without like people sharing it all over the internet. You know, it wasn't that long before that. And it didn't go mainstream if people realize and holy shit, this is like a legalized problem until the 2010s. So how did you, I think you started to say this earlier, but just like the full background, what was the first time where you realized besides like seeing the people show up to the pharmacies in Florida and coming in? What made you realize it was completely widespread to do like a whole documentary on it? Was it just that or? Yeah, I mean started by just seeing the activity, the people from all over the country coming to these pan clinics in Florida, then actually looking at the numbers and finding out that 90% 90% of the top 100 oxycotin prescribers were in Florida from the whole country 90% of the top 100 prescribers in the whole country were in Florida. God damn it Florida and seeing oh my it's the it's I take my parents for journalists. I take my passport there. It's a different country. It's a crazy place. It's my husband's favorite place on earth is Florida because he's a journalist like me. We've worked together on a lot of stories there, but it's yeah, it's like a it's heaven for journalists because it's just every corner there's a story. Yeah, where's the wind? All right, there's one. Yeah, so it was like starting to look at that and then and then actually heading down there and it was a I remember walking into a pan clinic. I had a secret camera on me, one of those button cameras and my husband's in the car with a camera that filming me from inside the car. And I go into this pain clinic and I asked the receptionist. I tell her I have a little bit of back pain. Could I see somebody and how easy is it to get prescribed oxycotin and she said it. Oh, yeah, and she actually was one of mentioned oxy. What can I be prescribed? And she said, well, you have to go and do an MRI, which we have in the back of our pain clinic. And then you'll come back with it and then the doctor can prescribe you oxy. It was the Holy Trinity in Florida at the time was oxy, Xanax and a muscle relaxer. And and that's was sort of the Holy Grail of drugs. That's why all the people were coming. I mean, it was mainly the oxy cotton, but you mixed it with the others. And then interviewing another, another interview with another mother, which she had two sons and she lost both sons to oxy cotton and we went to her house and she showed us the pills that her son had been prescribed by one of these pain clinic doctors. And we're talking about 300, 400, 500 pills in boxes for for for a one month supply of drugs for a kid. who didn't have any physical conditions whatsoever, but had become addicted to drugs and he was doctor shopping. So he's going from Franklin to Spain, he passed away and the younger son was still alive and we filmed with him, get called Todd. And he should, I mean, he allowed us to film him as he snorted Oxygotten and this is all over our film, like he behind his mother's back, which was sort of a difficult decision for us, but he was willing to show us how he does it, how he procures it, and then it was a year later, he passed away as well. So you're in the same documentary where you're talking to the mom as a generalist about one son. Yeah, the other son. You have to adhere to journalistic standards and not tell her about the fact that you're also. We told her, she knew that he was using drugs and she was trying to keep him safe and we asked her if we could spend time with him alone and while we were spending time with him alone, he took out a foil and was smoking in front of us and we later told her because he could die. Okay. And then we actually screened, it was one of the rare cases where we screened the documentary for her before it was released for her and Todd. So he still saw it while he was alive and then he died, but they saw the documentary because I wanted to make sure that she was okay with it because it was obviously about something very private. Here's the part I still don't understand. I can see some of these scammy clinics in Florida or whatever, but I always think back to the third time I broke my rest. I was in college, this is like 2013 and I had to get surgery when I get a metal plate and all that. I mean, or whatever, and the college doctor gave me a prescription for Vicodin. I shit you not. It was three canisters of it. I never took a single one of them. Now, I'm going to be honest, whenever I've had four surgeries before, whenever I've done those surgeries, there's like 48 hours afterwards where you take like whatever it's Vicodin usually, I think, I always throw it away at 48 hours just to be safe for whatever reason, whatever that feeling is, the people like, I don't like it, but I could imagine that maybe other people do and then they get addicted, I think the stats have backed me up. But I remember looking at this and I never took it. I actually later, I put it, it's funny story, I put it in my backpack, forgot about it and so I went to fly to Florida six months later with my mom and we go to security and I had accidentally taken some bagel knives through security a couple of years before, which was a funny story. So she's like, are there any surprises in your backpack? I'm like, no. And I go through the backpack and I get to this pocket and I'm like, and I reach in and it had, they'd all exploded open so it was a giant white powder and I had to go like in front of the security lady and like dump the white powder and the trash can, she's like she's generally. But anyway, I didn't take any of it, but I remember thinking about that and I'm like, why did he just give me 90 pills for a broken wrist and why is, why does that guy have a medical license? Like, shouldn't there be some kind of onus on the doctor knowing what the fuck they're subscribing or prescribing you? Yeah. And I think the vast majority of doctors who over prescribe these pills, it was pain management, it's a set, it's a sort of an expertise within itself, it's a, it's like, and a lot of these doctors that are treating pain, aren't pain management experts. So and you had the secular family, you had Purdue farmer telling people that this was safe, right? And they were ads out there and they were pushing these on doctors and telling them that the biggest plague that American suffer is suffering itself and we had to figure out, it's pain and we had to figure out how to deal with pain because American doctors weren't good at dealing with pain until they really pushed this idea. And a lot of doctors decided that there was the doctorly thing to do. The right thing to do was to treat people and treat their pain. But there was also, as we all know, a lot of very, very dirty doctors out there. We interviewed a kid who is at the time doing the oxy thing in Florida and his doctor was a gynecologist and he was going through gynecologist, he was a boy and he was going to gynecologist to an OB/GYN and she was the one who prescribed him oxy cotton. Now how does she have a medical license? No. Yeah. That's no sense. Not one single, I don't think a single one of these doctors has seen a day in prison. Our doc, the one, the oxy cotton express actually focuses on this one pain clinic in South Florida called American Pain. That was run by these two twins. My husband did a feature doc about it called American Pain. It's on HBO. You should watch it. It's really good. But it was basically focused on these two twins who ran, they used to have a, they used to sell illegal steroids basically and then a friend of them told them, what are you guys doing? They were selling oxy cotton and making much more money. So they set up these pain clinics all throughout South Florida and we're making, I mean, they had $40 million or something like stash underneath the mother's mattress, it was like insane amounts. They were like going on helicopters, having sex with stripper, it was like crazy, a display of wealth. They were making so much money and and my husband and I had spent time in Kentucky filming this with a sheriff who was finding these pill bottles next to dead bodies over those bodies that said American Pain. So we knew this was a pain clinic once we went back to Florida. We really wanted to film outside this pain clinic and we get there and we're on the other side of this sort of big road because we know that these guys are, they're known to be sort of aggressive and not like cameras outside. We know there's like two security guys outside surveillance cameras and as soon as we take out the camera, the car comes around, stops right next to us, two cars and it's the twins and they start threatening us and they say, what the fuck are you guys doing here? Get the shit, get the fuck out of our place, get the fucking cameras out of our face, what are you doing and we're like, okay, it's time to go and we start driving out and we had planned this so we could film right before we were supposed to fly out. So we have a rental car and we're driving towards the airport down 995 and I start, I realize that we're out of gas. I mean, we have like a tiny bit of gas left and they're following us down 995 and we stop at the gas station following us and we stop at the gas station and they stop right behind us and they get out of the car and they come right to the window and I'm at this point a little scared and I decide this is a terrible idea so I continue driving and then on 995 we had interviewed someone from the sheriff's department that I before and I called her and I said, hey, we're being followed by the guys from American pain and she said, hang up the phone and call 911 right now, you do not want to mess with these guys. There was an active DEA and FBI investigation to these guys at the time. Over their names? The George Brothers. The George Brothers? Yeah. The George Brothers. Yeah. Yeah. And if you pull up American pain, which is my husband's documentary, you'll see them. I think they are. So when you did, when you were making this, though, in 2007, 2008, it came out in 2008. So you were making it in 2007, the fair to say. How close to the holy grail did, you know, I'll read this for a minute. Yeah. Chris and Jeff George are identical twin brothers who operated the largest network of illegal pill mill clinics in the United States from 2007 to 2010 based out of South Florida. They're cash only there. That's how you know, they're cash only clinics trafficked over 20 million doses of oxycodone fueling the American opioid crisis operating out of strip malls and former bank buildings. The George Brothers created what they called the Disneyland of pain clinics, pulling in over 40 million dollars in cash. They catered not just to local Floridians, but heavily to thousands of customers who traveled thousands of miles or rented buses from Appalachian states like Kentucky, Tennessee and Ohio to get highly addictive pain pills. The operation required cash upfront relied on corrupt doctors and generated more than 500 million dollars in pain pills. How long did they, what was the sentences there to you? Just back to that page real quick. Sorry for down right there. So they were caught, discovered $4.5 million in cash stash in the attic of the twins mother. Yeah. Okay. 4.5. They were making, they made 500 million yet. Okay. So Christopher, the pill mill kingpin, pled guilty to racketeering conspiracy and served 11 years in prison. The brother was set free after serving roughly 13 years behind bars. So they're both out now. And you see it mentioned that they're massive drug enterprise with a community detail in the award winning scene and documentary American pain. There you go. They interviewed and he interviewed both of them for the doc. And this is the funny story. So they're following us down on 95. I'm on the phone. The woman tells me call 911 right now. This is actually seriously dangerous. We call 911 and tell them we're being followed by these giant, big looking guys, threatening us. And as I'm on the phone with 911 or carbons at my car, the car, and I veer off to the side and I just stop the car. They have no idea what's happening. They didn't put two and two together that we had stopped the gas station because we needed gas and we ran out of gas. They just thought, what the fuck are these people doing? So they just stopped behind us and they don't get out of the car because at this point they're trying to figure out what is happening here. And within like minutes, actually, police shows up and they come and they ask us questions and they ask them questions. They come up with an excuse. excuse that they thought I was a psycho ex-girlfriend. Oh, shit. Obviously, I tell the police what had just happened. And then it turns out that during this time, this whole R-hole filming, 'cause I later also called them and got them on the phone, and all of this made it into their trial, the tapes, 'cause the police had a wire on them the whole time. So they heard them talking about us, our investigation, this annoying journalist that we're looking into their business. And then when they were in prison, my husband sends them a letter, and he's saying he really wanted to do this documentary on the rise and fall of the twin brothers. And we discuss, like, should I say what, that I directed the oxygotten express or should I not, and he decides not to. And so he writes a letter, I think it was to Chris, and Chris writes back and says, at the end, he says, by the way, say hi to your wife. (laughs) He knew full well who he was. But he said he agreed and he ended up doing the dog about these guys, and it's fascinating. And none of the doctors did any time in prison, or not enough time, at least. - Yeah, it's also crazy, 'cause it's just another thematic thing here in the 21st century, where we've seen such a split of elite members of society and everyone else, and I wouldn't call doctors living in the billionaire class or anything like that by any stretch. I don't wanna exaggerate this, but when you see it, they're living well, they're rich. They're taking advantage of people, taking advantage of breaking their oath of what they did. And they're laughing about it, and probably all fucking strippers, and doing whatever they do, because they're scumbags. And yet, then they get no justice. It's like it's a two-tiered kind of system, because I know the dude that gets caught slinging on the corner with the wrong amount of kilos is doing 25 years on a Tuesday at 12.05 pm when the judge gets back from lunch and says, "All right, yeah, it's 10.24 and seven months, all right." Next case, I can understand, I mean, can understand. I'm a part of the people that are just like, what the fuck, why is this like this? - And the FBI actually did an amazing job in this case. I interviewed for the podcast on the Hidden Third, which I haven't described, explained, at some point, I should explain what the Hidden Third means. Why am the Hidden Third actually? - It's the elicit underbelly in the world. - It is, I love that name. - Good, it's estimated at 35% of the global economy are black and gray markets. It's what economists call the Hidden Third, and it's what I specialize in, where I spend most of my time in. And I think it was my second episode of the Hidden Third podcast, which is the podcast that I now do. - Link down below. - Yeah, exactly. - We can also collab this too, so people can hit the literally hit next to the title and subscribe to Marianna's channel. - That's great. - As well. And yeah, we interviewed Kurt McKenzie, who's the FBI agent in charge of the operation. - In Florida. - In Florida to bring these guys down. And he still talks about how the biggest frustrations are not being able to get. Particularly one doctor that he really wanted to get, who's responsible for a lot of deaths. And he, they tried so hard through their investigation to prove that she knew that she was responsible for these deaths, and they were never able to get in prison. - And well, that person's gonna have to answer for it at some point themselves. They gotta live with themselves. It's crazy. But all the way back when you did this, were you able to get all the way there to like the Sacklers, or was it still a little too early to know the real full story there? - So at this point, it's, I mean, we knew Perdue Farma was a big thing and was a big part of this whole thing. But our story was more on the oxyclean express. So it was more how the pain clinics are leading to overdoses and how it's all connected to Appalachia. So we actually followed the oxyclean express from one place to the other. We did actually talk about Perdue Farma, where we weren't, I mean, we were exposing it. We weren't investigating, I mean, it was an investigation, but it was more of an expose of this crazy situation that very few Americans knew about. And meanwhile, I think in Florida at the time, seven Americans a week, or a day, sorry, a day were already dying, let alone everybody outside of the state. Again, this was the early ages of the, what became the opioid crisis, the biggest drug epidemic in America's history. But then we did, when I did my first fentanyl story, we went after this one pharmaceutical company that was, it was called Incess Pharmaceutical Base in Arizona, run by a guy called Capore, John Capore. Was this the titrations one where they made the song? - Oh yeah, exactly, they made the song, making fun and saying they want people more people. And we got an amazing woman, whistleblower, who agreed to talk to us to her own risk. And she explained exactly how she was the one who was supposed, she was responsible for making phone calls to the insurance companies and lie to the insurance companies and tell them that the doctor prescribing pills to this woman that this patient was in fact had cancer when they didn't, because they, you know, because it was, you could only prescribe fentanyl to terminally ill cancer patients. And so they lied consistently. And these medications were very expensive, this fentanyl, it was called subsis. And it was very expensive. So you had, yeah, it was a spray. And you had all these companies, these insurance companies basically paying out and people dying from these drugs. And this was where the cartel came in. They were very smart and they realized, wait, they were abusing these drugs. They're having to go through hoops and loops or whatever the expression is. I fuck up all my American expression through hoops, right through hoops. - Yeah, you already do hoops. - I was gonna let either one go, it was fun. - Through hoops to get these drugs when we can be supplying them right here and putting them out on the streets for people to use them without having to go to the doctor. And they were very smart. But this guy, John Kapoor, we started investigating us. Him, we reached out and told him, we want to interview you or anyone in your company. And this was before, obviously, he was taken down and he threatened us, he sent us a cease and desist and said if our story came out, he would put all his resources into suing the shit out of us and we went ahead and nerd it. And a few years later, we actually tried to go to his house. He lives in a very mansion and a gay community. We tried to film outside his house and everything. And of course, he was the only pharmaceutical exec ever spent time in prison. He's out now, I believe, but he did a few years in prison. - You know what? He said he was gonna throw all the lawyers at you and everything. Does he ever see the show "The Wire"? - Yeah, my favorite. - Okay, it's the best show ever made. - I always think it's number two behind the sopranos, but I think the show is so good, it's like a documentary. - It's because it's created by a journalist. Literally, yeah, David Simon, shout out David Simon. We'd love to talk to you sometime, by the way. But you know, there's many great lines in that show, but one, it's probably come up five, six different times on the podcast is when Omar Little is testifying in the second season with the lawyer who represents all the drug kingpins and knows it. And the guy's like, so this is what you do, Mr. Little. You just run around and you shoot people, you don't like. And he goes, just like you. And the guy goes, what? And he goes, I got a shotgun. You've got a briefcase, all in the game though. And these guys like the capors of the world, they got lawyers with briefcases, they got money, they can throw the court system at you to fuck you into 40 million hearings until you go away. And they look at the dude who walks down the street with two secarios in an armed guard and doesn't speak a word of English. And they look at them like below that. No, you're the same person. You are the same exact thing. One has a gun, the other has a courtroom. Sometimes they have both, by the way. And it's just this mental thing to where it even led to the family like the cyclist. No one there went to jail. They had to pay like some record fine or whatever. They could afford that. But they still have wings named after them. In some colleges, I believe, unless all that's been taken down now as it should. It's like, I mean, they're still living free. - Living free. - And at the backs of so much suffering, right? So many and people have died in this country, and the fact, I think it was the daughter was recently quoted as saying something that she still doesn't see any responsibility whatsoever. - The sacrifice? - Yeah. One of the daughters that I was reading about recently. I mean, not even admitting that they obviously played a gigantic role in the creation of this epidemic. It's, it's, yeah, it's horrible. - Do you ever sit back, you know, go 30,000 feet in the air and just kind of look at it and say like, start to take away the idea that maybe some of this, I don't know who or from where or how or even why, but like some of this is just kind of planned out. Like they, it's not just the Sackler family really wanted to be rich. It was allowed to happen. It's so many different layers for so long to where the, you know, the horse left the barn. And you couldn't just put it back in and everything. Do you ever wonder if it's like on purpose for some reason, some of these things? - I don't, I think it's money. It's all about money. - Oh, money. - And it doesn't matter how, you know, no matter if you've got billions, you want more billions and it's all about money. And as a journalist, you know, when you're investigating these stories, it's follow the money. It's the best way to get there. And the power of money is, is really dangerous. Not only for the Sacklers, but I recently, only we did a story for the last season of traffic, which is about, it's called cartel USA. The presence of the cartel here in the United States, which we don't talk about often enough and we spoke to cartel members here and spent time with law enforcement when they were investigating the cartel and actually went to a place in Georgia, really remote little town where there had been a horrific crime scene. This woman was brought into this essentially Airbnb and this is how they found out. This woman, there's a cartel leader who believed, she was an uber driver but a trafficker, a dealer on the side. She would traffic drugs for the cartel on the side as well as being an uber driver. And this cartel leader believed she was stealing from him. So they brought her into this house in the woods that happened to be an Airbnb and that happened to have cameras outside. So the owner of the Airbnb meanwhile gets notifications anytime, anyone gets in and out. So he was watching one of these videos and sees a woman being brought in in the arms like with her head covered and he was like, what's happening? So then and he sees this actually a few weeks later after this has happened. Anyway, the cartel brings this woman in and they torture her, they end up killing her using a chainsaw. They cut off her her fingers. It's just one of those horrific crimes. They clean every the crime scene off out really, really well. The police only finds out because the Airbnb guy sees the videos and sees what's happening here, contacts the police. The police heads there, they start looking into it, they see no evidence whatsoever. And then one of the police officers has this idea like, why don't we see what's under the drain? So they take open the drain, they put that chemical that or the light or whatever it is that shows when there's blood there and there's massive amounts of blood and there's bones there and there's everything. So then they eventually arrest the people. But this is in a small town fucking Georgia, you know, in middle America and the least places that you'd think. So that got me thinking we should really do an investigation figure out how massive is it where they're operating from because it's not big city. It's actually small town America. How are they moving money? And how violent are they? And what was surprising to me in that reporting was finding out the corruption side of it. Because we know that they're here, we know that there's drugs, we know that they're guns, we know that they're death, there's death. But I don't think we know enough about the corruption and how they've corrupted politicians and law enforcement all throughout the country. So that's when when you talk about this big idea that we're allowing this, I think it's more in terms of the corruption side of it, right? That we allow this because we're making or because law enforcement or politicians at some point are making money from this. It's not this big idea that we want people dead. And it's it's more how much if I'm making money from this, I'll turn a blind eye. Yeah, I always do think that there could be people though who see some of these other people operating and they know human nature, they know they just want money or whatever. And they're like, all right, we won't stop that. It's not the worst thing ever. You know what I mean? And that and that will never unfortunately cynically, we'll never know the answer to that. But it's just I know part of it is we live in the internet age. So we have an unprecedented access to information around the world anecdotally and widespread, regardless of what it is. And so we're aware of a lot more than we would have been 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago. But it does feel like especially looking at it from the lens of America, we're living through such a chaotic moment at every level where there's just I don't know how to describe it, but almost like the way our civilization has been set up here is tearing at the seams in different ways, whether it be we're being ravaged by drug crises, whether it be, you know, the average American 50 almost 50% of people don't have $500 or more in their savings account. You know, or obviously political unrest wars happen in all over the world that, you know, somehow could be interconnected as well. It's like, you know, I'm an optimist, but I look at this sometimes and I'm like, this is, this is a bit of a, you know, kettle waiting to explode here. And I really hope like the world's going to be a better place for my kids when I have them. You know, do you worry about that sometimes? Like, ah, shit, maybe this experiment's going the wrong way. I'm an optimist too. And I keep thinking about like we are far better now than we were as, you know, better living conditions than we were decades ago, right? Less people are dying at birth. There are more women rights. There are more, you know, in general, we're pulling people more out of poverty. In equality is still massive in the world. Don't get me wrong. I know that. But I think in general, we're better off than we were. Let's say 50, a hundred years ago. I mean, we talk about, again, voting rights and civil liberties. And, you know, I think we're going in the right direction. What worries me most nowadays is politics and the division that exists in where everything has become politicized. And again, where there is just no space for nuance and difference of opinion. And once you have this division, and you can't get people to agree on easy things, simple things, like, you know, the better schooling, better infrastructure, how are we going to fight fentanyl, easy things, right? I mean, not easy, but things that we should all agree upon. When we can't get people that are supposed to be in power for this, to sit down across from each other and try to make America better, that's what really, really worries me. And it's, I see it's getting worse and worse. I mean, you know, I go on podcasts like yours and, you know, I'm a journalist, so I always try, it's part of what I do. Even as a human being, I always try to see all sides and try to understand and give people, understand the why people decide to do what they do or what they think, how they think. So that's very part of, a lot part of what I do. But there are some issues that are more passionate about that I really have strong opinions on. And as soon as I disclose those opinions, it is, it's like, you know, I receive death threats. It's like, oh, yeah, I've received death threats. I've said, like, you, you, you should be dead or you should go back, you're a bitch and you should go back to your country. I mean, calling all of it. And, and yeah, and that's, that's, that's where it gets, I think, really dangerous. I agree. Yeah, that division and that hate and not allowing, yeah, for, for conversation and debate and understanding of it, why does a person think the way they do and let's try to unpack this and see if we can get to some sort of understanding. Yeah, and I think that unfortunately our politicians are heavily responsible for this level of, I agree. And they're motivated to keep that going because it's also what keeps them in business. Yeah. You know, and you're right. It's, it's like, I do love that free speech has a bigger public square than ever, but there's, you know, it can be painful sometimes because one of the unprecedented things in history, obviously, we deal with now, and you're alluding to it right there is that people can sign up behind faceless accounts online, whether it be an email or Twitter account or whatever and, horrible, no consequences. I'm sure you get this as well. Sure. I was actually just talking with, with a friend of mine today, you just got, he just had to like, he literally had like a couple death threats for something he said on some other show. And I'm just like, what are we doing here? I can't even say anything bad or anything like that. It's just people, you know, I think people are pissed off at so many things that like they have to find their blood sport. Yeah. And I think they've made their blood sport the politics. I also think, though, like, you know, I could listen to some of the economic plans that like Hassan Piker has because he's, he's literally, he's a self-described like socialist and be like, yeah, I, I don't think that works as well at all. In fact, I think it's been proven over and over again, but I think his right to say that loudly and proudly in the public square so that it can be hashed out in debate supersedes everything. And there's just not enough people right now. I think that, that think that way. And something about us being at the 250th right at the moment is kind of symbolic too, because that is one, the founders didn't all agree on everything, like, yeah, some massive fights. But like, this is one thing most of them, they force all this like, hey, you gotta let it air out. Yeah. And I don't know, it seems like a good moment to maybe take a lesson from that for sure. Yeah, I agree. I'll give you an example of the kind of, hey, I'm sure you know this better than anyone, but I had a guest on the podcast, a guy who a big fan of the show reached out to me. I had never been on a podcast before, but reached out to me with a story about trafficking marijuana that was okay. But then while talking to him before the podcast, he told me how his 12-year-old daughter had been groomed by a man online. And he'd found the phone that she was not supposed to have. He didn't allow her to have a phone. She was 12 years old, but he found a phone, walks into a room one day, she's taking nude photos of herself. That whole story. Right, she was 12 years old. And then he goes and becomes obviously obsessed, takes the phone away from her, and starts communicating with the predator as if he's the daughter. and wants to meet him face to face. And he researched the law and tried to figure out what I'm gonna do, and wants to do sort of a citizen's arrest. So he calls his best friend and they're gonna go there and have a meeting with this guy, pretend it's the daughter going to meet him and do a citizen's arrest, called the police and have him arrested. And he's telling me all this story and then, which is, you know, a good story. - Oh yeah. - He's at the level of what he had to go through. And he says that after he obviously became so involved in fighting predators that he joined some of these YouTube groups that are, you know, to catch a predator type groups, right? And in my discussion with him, I was saying, how I find some of these groups out there doing great work, necessary work. I am not the type, the journalism that I do, the work that I do is never, I don't like gotcha journalism. I don't go, you know, I spend months or years trying to get people to open up to me. Like I said, I'm not trying to get one particular, if I can expose a problem and the broken system to me, it's much more impactful than going after this one guy. Of course, there's a line, if there's human harm or animal harm being done, I will obviously call the police, but generally, you know, I'm exposing the problem. And so I was explaining to him was that some of these groups have grown so fast, and many of them are doing it for clicks. - I agree with you. - And they're being sponsored. Like they're getting paid money to then get these people who might or might not be predators, for sure, a ton of them, maybe the majority of them are, is are, but that's why we have line enforcement. And that's why we have a system of law that is supposed to deal with them. And are they perfect? No, are they doing a good job? Not even, because unfortunately, even the predator that this father, that abused this father's daughter and a 12-year-old daughter ended up doing a less than a year in prison and in that shot, not be the case, but I was showing how these groups can also have a negative impact and how they can be dangerous. And particularly talking about this one case of this guy wanted to be an internet famous and decided he was gonna go out there and went into this man's house, he was supposedly a predator and beat the crap out of this man and hit him repeatedly and he ended up in the hospital. And again, there hasn't been due process in this case. We have no idea if he is in fact. I mean, there's a reason why we need evidence, actual evidence. That's right. And so that's what, that's all I was saying. I was called a predator. They said check her computer right now. She's a predator lover. I mean, all of it, like I got so much hate. And this wasn't just one or two comments. It was the vast majority of the comments that I got on the clips that we put out for that episode were like that. - That's because people don't listen to the context of what you're saying. You are not saying what they're accusing you of at all. In fact, I'll join you in getting hate right now. I love the work that like Chris Hansen has done. I've had him sitting in that chair. Since they did this at the beginning, like there is a whole process they go through to do this correctly and bring in law enforcement and catch real predators. And you are 100% right that, yes, while there are other YouTubers and stuff who are doing those things and doing it like on the internet now and doing it well. And those guys should be commended. There are other ones who are just jumping in on it to try to get the quick clicks. And like, yes, let me just throw out random numbers. Maybe five out of 10 times they do it. They're getting a full-blown actual predator and like great. But then what if they fuck up because they're not doing any of the leg work and then they beat up innocent people or something like that? - That's right. - You know, no, we know this is happening. You're not saying like, hey, you know, let's get one of the guys who's guilty off. You're saying like, do it the right way. And so yeah, like people, you gotta. - Yeah, I know, you have to just. - You gotta let people, you gotta let people like you explain things and we don't do that on the internet. Everything's out of context. We all the time, like all the time we will have a clip that we go to make from a podcast. It was three hours long. And I'll look at it. And this is like my bread and butter. It's the reason my show exists. Like I've just done more edits of that than fucking, I can ever remember. And I'll look at a clip that Danny Gonzalez or our editor and I'll put together and I'll say, you know, Danny, this is a great clip. This would do a couple million and you know, grow the account or whatever and like, buy us out of context. We can't do it. - Good job. - And it happens all the time. And then sometimes you miss one and you're like, fuck man, they even took that one out of context. But like, I've always tried to be conscious of that. You can't be perfect, but it's sad you have to be because people will just, depending on what it is, either the best version of what you're saying or the worst version of what you're saying. Frankly, the truth is in here. It's just like, you know, what's the context of what you're saying, but that's crazy. You can't let that bother you, your handle in that the right way. But that's nuts, 12 years old. - Yeah, 12 years old. - I mean, you know, sadly, I'm not surprised, but. - He's actually a great guy. You should have him on your podcast. He has a fascinating story, but then sort of the way he handled it all and how open he is about his own failures, how he feels he failed his daughter and not only he failed his daughter that allowed this to happen, which he feels even though obviously he's not responsible for it. I mean, it was obviously it was out of his control, but how he felt he dealt with it once it happened and how he was angry at her instead of trying to, again, understand and be an actual father and an example of understanding instead of, you know, blaming her. - Right. - Of course. - His whole, he was so open. And yeah, he's very in touch with his feelings and emotions. He was a great guy. - Yeah, I'd love to check that out. I'm sure there's a lot of people on your guest list. I'd be like, yeah, let's talk to them. But, you know, absolutely. Which by the way, if there's people who want to talk to 100%, we'll hook that up. But, you know, it also goes back to like even the reaction, like as a father with that too. I'm sure you're familiar with the Cain Velasquez story, the UFC guy. - No, tell me. That's on our list. - You'll probably remember. This was like maybe four or five years ago now, but Cain Velasquez, famous fighter, found out. I believe it was his son was being abused by the daycare. They were leaving him at. By I want to say it's been a while, but I want to say it was the son of the owner of the daycare who was like a 35 year old guy and they found out he was doing that. And, you know, to quote Dana White at the time who said this, he said, you know, a lot of us, myself included always say, if someone ever did blank to my kid, I would blank. And he goes, well, Cain did that 'cause Cain got in the car and chased the guy down. And, well, he wasn't a good shot. Luckily for him, I guess, but he missed, but he tried to. And, in all seriousness, though, I looked at that and I'm like, he did the thing that every father says they would do. And I understand like you're not supposed to take the law on your own hands, but then he, you know, he ended up serving a year in prison or something like that, but I'm like, man, I'm not a father yet, but if that were my kid, like, of course, that would be my inclination to go do that. And. Do you know it was amazing that this father told me and why I met, I taught when I say you so in tune. He's a very smart man. He said, the first thought he had was, I'm gonna go and kill this guy. But the second thought was, if I kill the guy, I'll end up in prison and I will no longer be able to be a father to my 12-year-old daughter, like I need to. And he said something that I, you know, there's, I'm sure you have those two, like these quotes in these interviews, episodes that stay with you, right? For me, it was violence is a young person's, a young man's response to an adult problem. And he realized that there was not the way he wanted to go about it. He wanted to see this man in prison for the rest of his life. That unfortunately did not happen. Violence is a young man's response to an adult problem. And a young man's response to an adult problem was something like that. Good for him. I butcher other people's sayings as much as I would do. No, but that was really, yeah. If it was somehow better than that, then he was really spittin' 'cause that's good. It's hard though. It's hard, you know, one of the quotes I say this all the time, but like, people love throwing around the whole phrase, if I were blank, then I would blank about the most serious types of things. And you don't fucking know. You don't know how you respond until you're in those situations. Yeah, the house is on fire. I'd totally go up to the second floor if the dog was in there. Then the house catches on fire and you're standing out there frozen. No idea. But that's the thing, like with Kane, you could say, all right, you know, it was a reactionary kind of thing, but like, he found out about it. And he got in his car and he went for it. And, you know, he's hailed online as a hero in a lot of ways. And emotionally, like, I feel that, you know, I would have liked to think if I was his friend, I would have calmed him down and said, hold on, we're gonna do this the right way or whatever, but I don't know that anyone was there. I think he kind of found out about it and got in the fucking car. You know, it's one of those strange things. But I think we've also seen, you know, you've covered human trafficking throughout your career. You've literally had a show called that. But, you know, I think there's been more than ever an understanding in this country of just how widespread the problem is here. Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. Where like what my friend Caterina Salts was telling me were like the largest America has there's more there's more sex trafficking here in America like More women Americans are a sex threat. We think of sex trafficking. We think international We think that maybe it's like foreign women being brought in or this happens in other countries But it's actually here right here. Yeah, I've covered this extensively sex trafficking extensively. Yeah Yeah, if I remember correctly I've had cut on my show a bunch I pretty sure the first episode she was ever in here. She said you were a huge influence of her I'm right about that, but I'm pretty sure she said that. Thank you. She's like 24 25 She's been on the ground in Mexico for four years does insane stories. That's great A story she did last year that she got so much shit for when she reported it and then she was a hundred percent right Was she broke the story about the CJ and G? Replacing some of their income losses with the border being a little tighter by kidnapping young pregnant women 16 17 18 19 years old taking them to trap houses performing a legal c-sections leaving them on the side of the road to die And then taking the babies and selling them across border And everyone's like she's full of shit. She has no idea what she's talking about two weeks later La Diabla was arrested for this very thing. She's that was the name of the woman CJ and G but like again the part of the story that I feel like people continue to ignore is like Whatever the final product was whether it was a live child that they were trafficking or A dead child their trafficking because they killed them It was being bought in America, right? Like we have to look in the mirror. Oh my yeah, I mean the biggest problem for Mexico is that they are neighbors with the biggest consumers in the world Right of drugs in this case or In that case. Yeah, I have never heard about that, but that's that's crazy. Yeah That's it. I know one thing I know CJ and G was replacing The drug money fentanyl money with was scams. They got really into the scam business scamming Americans. Yeah, really big I don't think we've talked about this. Yeah, really what happened here they realized that they there's a massive There's a lot of money you can make from they were I mean all sorts of scams as you know now we're living in the age of scams like I think it's Warren Buffett who says that scam and fraud are the fastest growing business In the world and that's where we should all be putting our money on because that it is. It's crazy It's like fast getting to the levels of drug trafficking in terms of profits Um, and I've reported extensively on this, but the one that CJ and G was getting involved in the type of scam was the Timeshare Scams you've heard about this. Oh, yeah, that was a lot of it was CJ and G really yeah They had and they were working with a lot of Americans um, you know who spoke obviously English fluently living here or living in Mexico and uh, and I got contacted so much I got tons of messages from people I even got contacted by a kid who worked inside because he thought he was gonna get a legal job and then realized he was paid to scam people and he left and uh, he was trying to figure out a way to get me inside It didn't work out at the time, but yeah, it's insane and yeah, it's they call Many times older Americans who either own time shares and tell them that they want out out of their time share I'm gonna buy your time share for this amount, but in order for me to pay you that you have to pay a small fee first And then you pay $10,000, let's say and then you need to pay the Mexican taxes, so that's $10,000 more And you know, suddenly you were $150,000 out and you're still want to believe that there's somebody on the other side of the line That is eventually going to buy your time share Or they sell you one entirely fake time share so it's like a double on the side of it It's it's crazy. It's so creative Sadly, they find a way Yeah, so my I wanted to tell you about this my latest story for an NGO Which is not traffic because we're not doing that anywhere is um, so you have your own company And you're working the production company goes in and makes content for nachos though exactly production company do saw series and documentaries We're also started starting to do the work in the scripted world as well, but um, we pitched them I pitched them a story last year That they really liked and so it's going to where we filmed it and it's airing in September. It's called super scam me And it's where I say yes to every single scam that comes my way every email every phone call we create a persona for me Called Mary's L. That's a older little older version of myself He did a whole makeover like brown long hair. Oh, wow, so I see you film that we like and we put photos of me all throughout social media And we created a fake person basically Mary's L on dating websites and everything and um, and I start connecting with scammers Either from you know, people were texting or emailing But eventually also I start having a romantic relationship with one Forestar general in Syria American forestar general in Syria. That's who he said he was And it is the wildest Journalistic experiment of my life. It was so catfishing and scamming all at once. On both ends. You was so good It was wild. It was wild. It was so good. It's coming out in September and I'm so excited when you went once they put everything on for the first time And you saw yourself in the mirror. Did you believe it? Were you like I this will pass? You know, I actually thought I looked too much like myself, but everybody else around me said I looked totally different So I guess it passed nobody I was never recognized. Yeah, I we actually debated putting my real face But obviously we were afraid they would realize we just photo search and realize I'm a journalist But they just meant that everywhere I went for several months. I just had to have the The whole disguise with me the whole time. I was filming everything. I was in the car. I was I had at one point I was talking to three bat brat pits to George Clooney Several canneries It was the best I was getting videos from Good for the rest of my George Clooney. That's right. Good morning. Mary-Zell. Oh my god Oh, we are so fucked. Was it AI? I like totally AI. Yeah, I wish it was yeah, but like when I say was it AI like Could you tell to the naked eye it was completely? Yeah, someone really good and We explore that in the dock. I mean we show it all and some of it wasn't very good But some of it was really good and it's only getting better. That's the problem. Yeah. Yeah It's it's really it's a really scary world out there when it comes to scams It's it's only going to get worse and I I've become sort of a 911 call for people who've been scammed around the country Just because I've reported so much on it and so weekly I get messages from people I actually just went I can't I can't say this because it will spoil the end of the film But one of the characters in super scammy is a woman who thought she was talking to a celebrity for the longest time and gave was about to lose her house gave her all her money to this celebrity And I can't say but there's a great twist at the end Related to the celebrity. So we'll have to tune in on that. Yeah What made you so you grew up in Portugal your whole childhood? When did you come to America for the first time? So the Columbia University's journalism school in 2001. How old were you? 9/11? I was 24 25 just 125 so you spent the first 25 years of your life effectively In Portugal. I did but I started I did college in Portugal and I started applying to grad school to journalism Columbia University As soon as I got out of university. I didn't get in the first year. I didn't get in the second year The third year I flew to New York and I knocked on the Dean's door and I introduced myself And I told him why I wanted to be a journalist in that year. I was accepted Oh, that's cool. That taught me sort of my first first big lesson determination for systems things you need as a journalist and I think as a human being in general And then I was there a month into my program in 9/11 happened and I was the only Portuguese journalist in Manhattan at the time So I ended up doing the all the live reporting for the biggest Portuguese television station Where were you midtown? They sent me to the rooftop of this midtown building I was surrounded by international journalists correspondents many of whom were my heroes that I'd watched growing up on television You know And I was a very inexperienced. I'd never done a live story in my life Wait, how did you get hold on a minute? You're one you're one month into your program as a student And I get a call in the morning when 9/11 happened the twin towers had just fallen I was fast asleep because I'd been working really hard on an assignment the night before and my phone both my cell phone and my Landline start ringing and I'm ignoring both and eventually I can't so I pick up the phone And the first person that calls me is my television station that I'd worked at in Portugal Okay, because I because I wasn't accepted to grad school. I see where we're working. Yeah, I was working there Um, I was working at a travel channel a show by the way Um, I was going to places like the Maldives and asking The honeymooners if this was their idea of paradise. Oh, it was so embarrassing You know, a long way since that I like here on your sandals vacation. How's it going exactly? So I was like um, and uh, yeah, so then uh, they called me and they said hey, we have no one in Manhattan I know you don't really know how to do this But we need you to go to knit down to this building and do the life coverage on the other line I had my mom crying and yelling and begging for me not to leave the house Where did you live in Manhattan? Were you up by Columbia? I was at 76 and Broadway. Okay, so you up there a little bit But like you could look out your window and see the smoke and everything at that point Couldn't see the smoke because I wasn't that high up. I was in the tiny little studio But uh, but I could I turned on the TV immediately. And so I think I turned on the TV the second era had just collapsed. Um, and, uh, yeah, my mom's begging me not to leave the house. And I'm explaining to her that I have to and I get there as fast as I can. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip, full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.