The Monticello AVA of Virginia- The Birthplace of American Wine

[Music] Welcome to Wine for Normal People, the podcast for people who like wine, but not the snobbery that goes with it. [Music] I'm your host Elizabeth Schneider, author of the Wine for Normal People book and certified wine dork. It's the holidays, there's no better one-stop shop for all your wine needs than wine access, whether you need wines for your holiday meal or bottles of wine for friends or colleagues. Wine access has you covered. Go to wineaccess.com/WFNP to find a curated wine selection. If you're not sure what to choose, a wine access gift card will let the wine lover in your life explore and enjoy at their own pace. Go to wineaccess.com/WFNP and listen in the middle of the show for more details. This is my last new show of the year, and I'm happy that I am talking about basically my local wine area, the place that is closest to me that makes very high-quality wine, the Monticello, Virginia, American viticultural area. And yes, it is said Monticello, not Monticello. Many of you have visited, many of you have heard of this area, and I can tell you that it is really the birthplace of American wine. I'll go over the history, and I think when I start to go over everything, you're really going to see that this place has had to go through a lot to get where they are today. And the wines are so amazing. It's a tiny bit depressing because Washington, D.C., which is their big metro market, is largely unsupportive of the wines of this region. They don't serve them. They have a really hard time getting distribution into wine shops and to restaurants, which really stinks because a lot of us make it to D.C., but we can't make it to wine country. And we can't even try these wines. I have to say, I'm very proud of my New York heritage because they do support long island wines, and Hudson Valley wines, and Finger Lakes wines, in a way that D.C. does not. If you talk to the ventners in Monticello and other parts of Virginia, it's a little bit sad that there's not more support for those local wines, because these are world-class wines. I know they are hard to get. You'll have to order them directly if you want them, but they are worth it. And if you do find yourself in Virginia, you should go there. It is a wonderful place, and I love visiting, and I love the wines. And I always come back with way too much wine when I go and visit two pieces of business before we get started. As always, I'm going to do the patron shout outs, patreon.com/wine for normal people. The base tier of $2 a month is going up to $3 a month on January 1st. You can get a discount for joining for the year, and that price will be locked in for as long as you're a patron if you do it before January 1st. No pressure. It's just that the price is going up inflation. I'm sorry. It is what it is, but let me think the patrons who have joined for a year, you get a shout out if you've joined for a year. Brent W. Jason S. Jenna K. Eric V. Jenny L. Nikki G. Jason J. S. Brian. Jen K. Rubin A. Tracy. G. G. Wine. Diane G. Alana Z. Stephen W. Adriana S. And James Z. Thank you so much. I'm so excited. I've already interacted with a bunch of you. Jump right in. If you do join patreon, definitely jump right into the discussion question. Or comment on the tips or the videos or whatever. You can direct message me on patreon. I will answer you directly, usually pretty quickly, much quicker than email. I'll tell you that much. It's a great fun community. I'm going to give some special shout outs to people who have done a lot for me this year, who are listeners and have become very good friends. Please bear with me for a second. These people just have made the podcast better and then we'll get right to Monticello. Claudette C. I need to tell you sometimes sisters find each other and may not be born in the same family. Amy P. So much. I need to thank you for this year, but for the letter and for all Gen X solidarity. Trish and Genie, my writer, die friends. Alyssa, thank you for being my partner in questionable decisions. And we can only hope they work out as well as hair gate. Tina and Bill. Here's to many more green suitcases coming out of windows. Joe H. My fellow black swan giving me the best gift I could have, which is hope and friendship. Rob C. Unwavering support. Lorenzo, who is the owner and sometime Vintner at Andes in Amador. Please take out his wines, especially semi on Barbarra's in fantastic wines. Lorenzo, thank you for being one of my most loyal listeners. Our summer meeting is to be continued. But let's have the next one in Italy. Monica G never have I laughed so hard and felt more solidarity in our hellscape. And Luis L. I'm so lucky to have met you this year in London and we will persevere together. So those are my special shout outs. Thank you for indulging me. The Monticello AVA, we need to think of this as central Virginia. So Virginia is one of the original 13 colonies. If you're in the US, you are probably aware of this. If you're not, you may not be, but it is on the east coast. We are in the southeast of the United States at the 38 degrees north latitude. This is well within the grape growing band, which traditionally has been between 30 and 50 degrees north or south latitude, although that is changing. What we are talking about is nothing close to the coast. This is in the foothills of what is known as the Blue Ridge Mountains of central Virginia. There's a big valley called the Shenandoah Valley. And this area has been farmed for so long because it's this rolling farmland, especially on the valley floor. But for viticulture, it's important that the mines are at elevation, and in many cases they are on slopes, even if gentle slopes. We are talking about an area that's about three hours from Washington, DC, Southwest. Monticello, many people may not know, became an American viticultural area in 1984. So it has been here for a really long time. Monticello itself, which takes the name from the famous historical home of Thomas Jefferson, who was maybe the greatest wine advocate in American history. Monticello is the oldest wine region of Virginia, and it is mostly premium wines. This is not hybrids for the most part. There are some. This is not weird stuff. It's mostly viticine for us, so our regular grapes that we know and love and it is high quality and high priced in many cases. This area includes most of five counties, over 800,000 acres is covered by this AVA or 320,000 hectares. It's enormous, but not that much is planted. It's hard for me to tell you how many planted acres there are in the Monticello AVA in particular, because the only thing I could find was that there's 4,000 planted acres in all of Virginia. Monticello does contain a large portion of that. There are about 30 varieties of grapes grown. There are more than 50 wineries. Most of them are family owned and operated. But let's talk about the history because a huge part of Monticello, which is really, as I said before, the birthplace of American wine is the history. Interestingly, even though people think Thomas Jefferson was the first to try to grow grapes for wine, that is not true because settlers in 1609 tried to make wine with native grapes. The problem that they came across as did everybody in the colonies was that the native grapes don't taste like the disvenifera, the European grapefines. They had a funky flavor to them and people didn't really care for them so they continued to import wine. That does not mean that they stopped trying. In 1619, the local Virginia government passed what was known as the 12th Act, which required Virginia colonists to plant vineyards. So they were certainly giving it a go if nothing else. Probably both for table grapes and for wine, wine was expensive to import so you can understand why. Then we fast forward to the 1700s with Thomas Jefferson. He was not just a wine enthusiast. He was also a student of wine. He was extremely knowledgeable from his time traveling all over Europe, all parts of France, especially Bordeaux, where he was a big fan. He helped create interest in grape growing in Virginia. He wanted to prove that the new world and especially in Virginia, where so many things did grow so well because of the fertile soil, could do very well. So he bought a lot of land for vineyards and not only that in the 1770s, Thomas Jefferson funded an Italian wine maker named Philipo Massey. He's actually a doctor from Tuscany. He had originally met Benjamin Franklin while working in London and Massey at first had this idea of importing Italian products, especially Tuscan products into the American colonies and then also figuring out if they could cultivate Mediterranean fruit, including grapes and olives in Virginia or in the colonies in particular. Massey came to Virginia in 1773, along with a bunch of other Italians trying to see if they could make grape vines and other products work here. Massey visited Monticello still there today that you can go visit and became friends with Thomas Jefferson, especially over their love of wine. And Jefferson gave him land and money the plant grapes in 1774. He researched tirelessly the terroir. He planted thousands of vines around Monticello and neighboring areas. If it's not one thing, then it was going to be another. At this point, it was 1774, 1775. The American Revolution started in 1775. So that kind of put an end to things. Massey had gone back to Italy to try to procure funds for the revolution from the Grand Duke of Tuscany. At that point, he rented out a lot of his land to a German prisoner of war who led his horses run rampant and grazing the vineyards and destroyed them. The war took care of the rest. So that effort failed around 1807 Thomas Jefferson tried again in his south orchard to make wines from Monticello using classic European grape varieties. But then as we know now, Fuloxara, which is native to the US, was going to get those European grape vines right away. And Thomas Jefferson never realized his dream of producing quality wine in his lifetime. In 1835, Dr. D. N. Norton bred a domestic native grape that was actually not so strange taste saying didn't have that funk that a lot of the native grapes have. And it was named Norton. And because it was native, it's not susceptible to Fuloxara. It was the foundation for the Virginia wine industry, a new in the 1800s. And at this point, using Norton and some other native grapes, they got some international recognition. The Monticello wine company won a gold medal in Vienna in 1873 and a silver in Paris in 1878 for the wines of their claret. So Charlottesville, which is where the University of Virginia is where the Monticello State is where Thomas Jefferson made his home is where the Monticello AVA is centered. And at that point in the late 1800s, it was known as the capital of the Virginia wine belt. As with all progress in American wine in the early 1900s, prohibition began and Virginia statewide prohibition started before the Volstead Act, which was the national prohibition in 1920, their prohibition started in 1914. The Great Depression and World War two stopped progress and the rebirth of the industry really didn't have a chance until 1976. And this is the real time that we focus on. All of the other stuff is interesting. The stops and starts. But 1976 was once again when we see Italians come on the scene in Virginia. Gianni Zonine from Vincenza in Italy had and has a very large wine making operation. The Zonine wines are very well respected. It is a very big company up in Venato in Italy. But he decided that he was going to make a go in America and he looked all around and decided that it would be interesting and challenging to set up wine making operations in Virginia. He scouted this out and bought a property and then brought Gabrielle Rousey, who is a name that I will mention again, who was pivotal in helping Barboursville Vineyards, which is one of my favorites in Virginia, most people's favorites in Virginia. One of the largest wineries in Virginia and certainly one of the highest quality. So he brought Gabrielle Rousey to help plant these vines and get Barboursville started. It was difficult. It was hard to figure out the soil changes a lot. The climate is extremely changeable. But Italians were a bit more used to changeable weather as opposed to Californians who might try to do this in Virginia. So that was 1976. In the early 1980s, the Jeffersonian wine grape growers society was like a consortium and that was formed to encourage people to plant grapes and help them be successful. And by 1982, this group proposed the establishment of an AVA surrounding Charlottesville that was going to be known as the Monticello AVA named for Jefferson's estate. And that was granted in 1984, as I said. Now, there's historical significance to the boundaries, but more importantly, it's about geographical features, which is how you get an American viticultural area, the climate, the soil, elevation, other physical features. In order to be Monticello AVA, you must have 85% of grapes coming from the Monticello area. This creates authenticity. At the same time, it means that there's not very much wine because there aren't a ton of plantings. The Monticello wine trail, which you should absolutely know about if you're going to go visit, this is an active association of wineries that was formed more than 40 wineries are part of that. And then in 2023, wine enthusiasts named Charlottesville and Monticello AVA, the wine region of the year. Monticello, pretty much from 1976 on, the last 50 years has gone from strength to strength. And more people have come in and seen the true potential of this area, which is pretty amazing. Now, I am not going to say nor would anybody who works in Virginia that this is an easy place to work. The key here is when we talk about the climate of this area, it is challenging. There are very warm, humid summers that can have rain. You can have hurricanes towards the end of the growing season. This is not easy. It's not predictable. There is some wind protection and whether protection by the Blue Ridge Mountains, which are part of the Appalachian mountain range that goes up and down the east coast. And even though it is very warm in the Monticello AVA, there are gaps in the Blue Ridge Mountains to the east. As a result of those gaps, cold air flows through these corridors. So you do get some relief from those hot human days and occasionally the breeze will blow off some of the humidity. But it is challenging. Let's just say organics, very, very difficult in the Monticello AVA. Another thing about this region is that because it is in a mountain area, you have not just the cool mountain breezes, but you also have diurnal temperature swings. So it does get cooler at night. The grapes have an opportunity to rest, to gain acidity and the summers have very, very long warm days, but they are punctuated by cooler nights. So you do get grapes with a lot of complexity. The growing season in Monticello is around 200 days. Once the vine is going to dormancy, the viticulturists cannot stop their work because one of the major problems for Virginia is that the winters can be very harsh. It can get cold up in those mountains. That cold and snow and frost can damage or kill the vines if it is cold for an extended period of time. Part of the way that you stop this is that you plant vineyards at elevation because cold air will drop to the valley floor. It will settle. And so this is why you don't want vineyards at the bottom of the valley floor. That's where the cold air is going to go. And warmer air is going to be on the slope. So there will be less frost damage and that is extremely important in an area with very, very cold winters. Most vines are on sunny, southeast facing slopes at elevation and the elevation goes from about 600 to about 2,200 feet or 180 to 670 meters. The elevation is going to help that cold air drain down to the valley floor. Vintage really matters in Virginia. Sometimes they have very hard ventages and they can't produce a lot of wine as a result of that. The soil is also very varied. I wonder if at some point they will break up the Monticello AVA. They seem to just be adding to it. But it should get a bit more granular because there's clay in a lot of areas. Clay is the main type of soil. But there's coarse sand in other places. There's colluvial wash, the mountain wash. There's loam. There's granite. Although most of these soils are well drained, some of them are heavy clay and that's going to lead to not so great drainage and not so great wines. Pay attention if you do go to Virginia and ask about the soil types. Very fertile soils also are not going to create very good wines. And this is why Virginia was a major plantation colony because the soils are very fertile. But grapes don't like that. So you have to find places to plant where the soil is a little less fertile. And that's been a major challenge for them too. I think it still is a challenge because the places that have rocks and well-drained clay are fantastic. But I think people in some cases haven't figured out exactly where to plant. You can taste it in the wine. The result is wine that doesn't have the finesse and the flavors that it does in other places. We'll step away from the podcast. Look, it's the holidays. You might want to listen to this stuff instead of skipping over it, as I know some of you do. Two things from me, from wine for normal people. One, you can gift a Patreon membership to someone that you think may be interested. A super wine dork in your life. Patreon.com/winefornormalpeople. And there is an area where you can gift a membership. If someone is interested in taking classes or you want to take a class with someone, you can give them a wine for normal people. Gift certificate. That is on a different website. That's on my website. If you are looking for a gift for the holidays, how about going to wine access? Wine access is amazing. It really is, as I mentioned at the beginning, a one-stop shop for all your wine needs this season. You still have time. You still have time to order wines for your holiday meals, for your holiday gatherings. You can even get bottles of wine for your friends or colleagues just to have around the house. I know I do that. I buy a bunch of bottles, and then if I forget somebody on the list, and they get me something I have great wines on hand from wine access. You want to get somebody a gift and let them explore and figure out what they want and get them a wine access gift card. You can go to wineaccess.com/wfnp. The selection is awesome. It's curated. The team tastes 20,000 wines a year. And they know what is high quality. And that's what makes the grade. And if you want, you can also join the wine access wine for normal people wine club at wineaccess.com/normal. You get quarterly shipments as six bottles for $150 that include shipping. And you can easily add wines to your shipments. You get 10% off all wine access purchases. You can pause shipments. It's easy to cancel. So maybe that will be the gift you give yourself wineaccess.com/normal wineaccess.com/normal to sign up today. Or if you just want to browse and go get that gift card, it is wineaccess.com/wfnp. Now I have you set for the wine lovers in your life for the holidays. So let's get back to Monticello and this very fascinating American viticultural area. You can imagine that given humidity and unpredictable precipitation and challenging soil types, you really have to manage the viticulture carefully. Picking the right rootstock, picking the right grape for the site. So important. And again, a lot of places, I think this is so typical of new areas. They haven't quite mastered this, but some of them have done a beautiful job. I do want to say again, almost all the wineries, barbersville is a little different, but almost all the wineries are small family owned vineyards. And only the biggest ones like barbersville and a few others have distribution. So you have to order them direct if you're interested in trying these wines or go and visit them. They love talking about the wines, tourism and money from direct sales is most of their revenue. And it is a gorgeous part of the United States. I encourage you to visit. They're really open. It's beautiful driving. And they do often have special events with music and food. Some of them do weddings. And I think we joked in our last podcast together that if there is a bride featured on the website of a winery, you're thinking about going to not a good sign. And usually that's true because it does indicate what their focus is. You want the focus to be on the wine. And that is very, very important. That said, a lot of them have to make money through special events. So we certainly do not begrudge these small businesses for making the most out of their gorgeous wineries. But at the same time, what you prioritize on your website is telling to us. So make sure that if you're thinking about visiting a place that you keep that in mind, I do also want to give a nod to the state of Virginia, which has taken a really active role in promoting the wine industry. There's a big thing called the governor's cup where they judge the wines and certain wineries win the governor's cup. It's a really big deal. They have a big gala. There's also collaboration and research and innovation both through the Virginia universities and through things like the winemakers research exchange, which started in 2014. And they work to explore ways to make quality wine on the East Coast. And they share ideas. They share grapes. They share wine making techniques. They don't really get all of the attention that the West Coast does. So it helps for them to try to read and share knowledge so that they can be in constant improvement mode. And it is really admirable and awesome. You don't see that kind of organization in a lot of other regions and the rising tide floats all boats. If you go to Virginia, you order these wines. They're expensive because if 85% of the grapes have to be from the Monticello AVA. And you have a bad vintage. You've got to charge for what you are making. Most of these places are 100% Monticello grapes. And most of them are from their own estates. It's hard to produce grapes here. When you do pay these high prices, I guess sometimes I don't mind as much in Virginia because you're supporting the industry and helping it keep going. They can't compete. They don't have the actual amount of wine to compete with California or Oregon or Washington or even New York State. That's a challenge for Virginia, as I said before, distribution. They just don't have the wine. But if you want it, you can certainly order it after this podcast. You can certainly listen to the wineries that I recommend and order these wines. And they will be really, really good. What grapes do they grow here? Well, I mentioned that for a long time, Norton was the star grape. And some people still do grow Norton. It originated here. It's actually really not that bad. It's definitely my favorite native. I mean, it's a native grape. It's definitely the best one by far. It tastes a lot like raspberries. It's a little fruity for me and a little full, but it's a decent grape for sure. But mostly what we have in the Monticello AVA is Vittis vinifera. So the star grapes, Cabernet fronk for reds. Lots of red fruit. They tend to be peppery, a little bit earthy. It depends on who's making them and what you get. Sometimes they can be more on the earthy side a bit more restrained. Sometimes they can be a bit fruitier just depends. Petite Verdo is a specialty of the region. They make it as a varietal wine. They're moving away from that for Cabernet fronk. It can be floral. It can be very strongly tannic. Petite Verdo is important as a varietal, but not as much as it was. Meritage, which is the Bordeaux blend. They will make those out of Cabernet fronk and merlot. There's some excellent merlot producers. There is some Cabernet Sauvignon, but in general, it is not warm enough for a sustained period to grow Cabernet Sauvignon and get it to the level of ripeness where it's not going to have those green pepper notes. And then there are some very interesting red grapes. One of my favorite Virginia wines is the Nebula from Barbersville. Now, Luca is from Alba in Piedmont and he is a specialist with Nebula. I think, even though octagon, which is their marriage blend, it is their Cabernet Sauvignon Cabernet fronk. Merlot blend and is their most highly rated wine and maybe Virginia's most famous. I think Nebula is still as Barbersville's best wine. And I think in the podcast with Luca, he said that he agreed with that their Cabernet fronk is also absolutely amazing. Nebula is finding a home in Virginia. There's a few others that are doing it as well. There's also people doing Sarat and Tanat and Tarega Nassional trying different things. And then in the world of whites, Vionier has been their lead great for a long time. It is aromatic. It's got some peach and honeysuckle notes, some lower acidity. It can get a little bit too alcoholic in the wrong hands. There's some fantastic Chardonnay. Pollock, especially makes fantastic Chardonnay, usually less oaky. And then you'll also see alberino. They are doing a lot of trialing with alberino right now and having some really nice results. It tastes lemony. It has a honeysuckle note. Lovely. And there's all sorts of other grapes. Petit Men's saying is the other one that I'll mention as having enormous potential. It is a grape that is usually grown in the Joral song in Southwest France. There's a bunch of French wine makers. They did an exchange program for a long time inviting French wine makers to come and make wine in Virginia. They found it challenging, but they were more used to the conditions. And that exchange program has brought a number of French wine makers to stay in Virginia. The Petit Men's saying grape is full and rich. It is a winter white, although it does have great acidity. So there's a few producers making sweet wines from Petit Men's saying, but I think the dry wines of early mountain, which I'll talk about in a second, really the best Petit Men's saying that you can get. I'm actually mentioning these wineries. So now I'm going to address my top wineries in Monticello. I don't usually do this, but I will tell you that in an emerging wine region, it's very important to separate out the top wineries and the second tier wineries from everyone else because I have done a lot of wine tasting in Virginia in Charlottesville. I have tasted many things not just at the wineries themselves, but in restaurants and things like that. And I can tell you that there are misses. It's still a place where you could go to a winery and taste undrinkable wines. I'm just going to be straight up honest with you as I always am. I am going to try to help you avoid doing that by telling you that for me in the Monticello ABA, there are four wineries that I consider the wrong crew. And this is a no particular order. I just want to say because they're all equally fantastic. The first one I'm going to mention is Pollock vineyards. Pollock is small. It is not given the credit it deserves because they sell all the wine that they make for a reason. Margo and David Pollock founded it. David had had some experience in the Russian River Valley of Sonoma and in Kernero, Sonapa and thought we can do this in Virginia in 2003. They bought a 98 acre farm west of Charlottesville and Crozet, which is another significant town in the Monticello ABA. They have 34 acres of the spinifer growing today. They have a state grown wine. They don't purchase grapes. And I have to tell you everything they make is awesome. They make a state chardonnay, which is fantastic. They play around with it. Sometimes it has less oak. Sometimes it has more oak. It's always perfect. Really, really acidic and fantastic. Where low is to die for. They make fantastic cabernet franc fantastic marriage. Everything they make is a perfect balance of fruit, land and man. They really have it down. I've been trying to get them on the podcast forever. Maybe someday I can get somebody from Pollock on the show because they really know what they're doing. I've mentioned them a number of times. This is the original that founded in 1976 still owned by the Zonen family. It is on a historic property that includes the ruins of a mansion that burned down, but was designed by Thomas Jefferson. You can go visit them. If you go to Barbersville, they have an amazing restaurant there as well called Paladio. They have figured out their terroir and what grows best. Luca Pasquina was on episode 510. So if you're patron, you can listen to that. And it is a fantastic show where we talk very honestly about Virginia and about the terroir, about potential and things like that. But Barbersville. Their octagon wine is the one that's really broken through. It's a Bordeaux style blend in. It has earned them international claim. As I said, I think their nebula and cabernet franc are insanely good. The vermitino is delicious. Everything they make, especially in the library selection, if you go and visit fantastic wines. They know what they're doing. High quality wines. Extremely talented wine making and better cultural team. And Luca consults for other people and has helped the entire region do better. I can't say enough good things. If you go to Charlottesville, you have to go to Barbersville. And who helped start Barbersville, Gabriella Rouse, who I mentioned before. He's really the father in many ways, the father of the modern Virginia wine industry. He has spent more than 40 years in Virginia zoning first bought Rouse to Virginia to work at Barbersville. Gabriella left in 1981 to start some other ventures, help other wineries get established. He was very interested actually in Thomas Jefferson's history. And he wound up working at Monticello until very recently where they unceremoniously booted him out after like 40 years of working there on their vineyards and trying to replicate some of the vegetable gardens orchards woodlands that were originally planted in Monticello. He also planted grapes where Jefferson originally tried to plant them and cultivated them successfully, but started his own vineyard in 1997. And these wines are awesome. The tasting room is hard to find, but the wines are spectacular. His sons run it now. If you go to Gabriella Rouse, you may run into him and he will tell you wonderful stories about the Virginia wine industry and about his time in Virginia. He sells a very thick Italian accent. His sons who grew up around the vineyards know what they're doing and have done a wonderful job and continuing to make fantastic wines. The fourth one that I will mention that I think is the top tier of Monticello wines is early mountain. Now, I went there several years ago and I didn't think the wines were very good. They invited me to come back and they have replanted. Again, like I said, since it's so very important to plant or site for soil for making sure you have the right root stock for a long time. They did not have that at early mountain. This just shows that money can't buy everything because although the property was purchased in 2005 in 2010. Gene Case and her husband Steve case who started AOL. They were part of the founders of AOL. They bought the property and they poured a ton of money and if you go there, the tasting room is a little over the top. They have a fantastic restaurant. It's very pretty. But the renovations weren't as important as this replanting effort, which they did recently. And that replanting has made way better wines. Luca helped consult as did some of the other top wine makers and viticulturist for early mountain. And the other thing I love about early mountain is that they have a female wine maker and she has a female assistant wine maker. Her name is Maya Hood White. And she is making some really great wines. Early mountains stunning wine is petite men saying this white wine. It is surprising. It is delicious. It really is their best wine. But everything else they make is really high quality and I'm super impressed and happy to be able to promote them into a spear with these other great wineries. There are a few other wineries that I think make the cut for what I would call the second tier. Often mountain, which I think used to be a little bit better. They are at a thousand feet of elevation. Beautiful property. They do have a young French wine maker. Good petite verdo. They make lovely blends. Their baco is very good. They are a good and solid property and they make good wines year after year. I would say I'm not including them in the top chair because not all of their wines are fantastic. But many of them are king family vineyards used to be on my list for the top tier. Unfortunately, they have really upped the alcohol by volume and the oak on their wines. So they have meritage. They have rosé. They have cap fronk. They have a lot of really great stuff, including late harvest wines. Another beautiful property. The family has a polo field on their property. So it's a great place to visit. The wines to me are just inconsistent and they are full of oak and alcohol, which is not my style that your style. Maybe you would think that they are a top tier winery. And then there's some wineries that are a bit less consistent also Jefferson vineyards, which is on the land that once served as Thomas Jefferson's first vineyard site. They have a 22 acre vineyard. They can make great vioñe petite verdo. They make really nice. Bordeaux blends are meritage blends hit or miss some years. Great. Some years. Not so great. I haven't visited in a while. My last experience was not fantastic. I've heard a lot of people like that because it's owned by musician Dave Matthews, when the Dave Matthews band. Another property where some of the wines are fantastic and some of them are not so good hit or miss. There are others that people really like. I don't consider these to be top tier wineries. I know other people do Michael Shaps is one of them. Stinson and Keeta Ridge. These are just not my favorites, but people do like them. And I would recommend that you check them out and see if they're your style. I've heard others that are frequently recommended and some of them that are frequently recommended are recommended because they have beautiful tasting rooms and nice facilities. I have tasted around a lot. That's my list. This is what I'll say in closing. Hello, A.V.A. is continuing to improve the wineries are consistently trying to do better. It's really important for me to go up there on a regular basis to update my list of wineries things have moved over the years. Those three barbersville Gabrielle La Rouse and Pollock have always been in my top tier early mountain popped in there on my most recent visit after learning that they had changed things. It's really important to keep going there and see what's happening. It's an exciting dynamic region as they figure out more about their terroir and what they should be doing. These wineries have enormous potential. They are doing the work for the most part, but it's a lot of work. It's not easy to put vines in the ground and watch them grow. Virginia is for people who really like a challenge as is all east coast with a culture. But let's you think that the east coast of the United States cannot grow great grapes and make great wine. I would challenge you to try any of the wines that I mentioned and see what you think after that. They really are world class. They're much more restrained than California wines. They're not quite as restrained as European wines. They are a Goldilocks solution. Great fruit, but still a sense of earth of minerality, but not over the top. They tend to be modern in their flavors, modern in their body, and always have great acidity because of those cool nights and the mountain and the mountain culture. The Monticello American Viticultural area is one of the most beautiful, diverse and interesting places to watch the evolution over time. So if you haven't been, you should go. The people are also wonderful. There's lots of good food there. Charlottesville is there. If you're interested in American history, you can go and check out Monticello. The property itself. You can go to Mr. Jefferson's University, the University of Virginia, which is right there and it's very beautiful. So lots to do and see I am a passionate advocate. Now I'm feeling like I need to go back to Monticello. It's been about a year or two, so I need to go back up and see what is next and who's emerging. I'm sorry that not all of you can access these wines easily, but I do think it is important that you know about this area and that you know that it's been around since 1984. It's one to keep an eye on and if you do find yourself in Virginia, definitely go and visit happy holidays to everybody. Thank you all for your support in 2025 years to a healthy, happy and prosperous 2026. And with that, this has been another episode of wine for normal people. Thank you so much for listening and we will catch you next time. [Music]