The Money Mistakes Every Woman Needs to Avoid Before Marriage! Celebrity Attorney Laura Wasser

- This one guy leans over to me and he goes, "You may be pretty and you may wear nice clothes "and your Christian, whatever they are heels, "but I've been doing this for 20 years longer than you "and I'm gonna win." And then Judge delivered his ruling and it was all in my favor. I leaned over to him and I go, "I'm prettier. "I have Luma Tune Shoes and I'm winning." - Pop culture around divorce and prenappes has literally been built around you. You represent Johnny Depp, Kim Kardashian, all these huge names. And this is why I was so terrified because your firm represented my husband during our prenuptial agreement. - People really do need to know that every dollar that you earn, every screenplay that you write, every painting that you paint is going to be half yours and half your spouses. Also eggs, embryos, sperm, surrogacy, agreements. - What is the craziest clause you've seen in a prenapp? - Believe it or not, I've seen no weight, lost, or gained clauses. - This show is listened to by 75% of females, 25% of males, even though I do not speak to them, but we love you. What are pieces of wisdom for women to be empowered going into these discussions? There are four things that once you learn is what you have a successful marriage based on. And they are, what are those red flags that is not an immediate dump him as it relates to anything monetary in the relationship? - Hi, angels. Did you know that's describing to our channel is free? And it's the simplest way that you can support our show and help us grow. If you do this, we can bring you even more of the content and the guests that you love. All you have to do is just hit the subscribe button below. So please, if you wouldn't mind, subscribe to the channel, and thank you. (upbeat music) In case you missed it, you're allowed to be hot, smart, and rich, so let's get into it. (upbeat music) Laura Wasser, are you ready to get hot smart rich? - I'm ready. - For someone that's just clicked into this, they don't know who you are. What would you tell them today to get them to stay but what we're gonna talk about? - Well, I'm a family law attorney. I've been one for over 30 years here in California, and I think that if you're listening today, you should continue to listen 'cause you'll probably learn something about relationships, marriage, divorce, prenuptial agreements, and how to be smart when you're being hot and rich. - Love it. When you represent, obviously, Johnny Depp, Kim Kardashian, all these huge names, a lot of people will listen to that and think, well, I don't have that much going into a marriage or that's not really like the level of life that I have, but the average person that's listening today, if they apply what we're gonna talk about and put it towards their life, how will it make their life better? - It's really not that different. There may be some extra zeros on the end of your bank accounts, but particularly with regard to prenuptial agreements and conversations that you would be having if you were going to enter into one and conversations you should be having if you're going to marry someone or even move in with them, have kids with them. We're seeing a lot of people getting married later, but cohabiting first. We have, we see a lot of people having children with that necessarily getting married. I truly believe after having done so many prenuptial agreements that the conversations that center around these agreements expand past what goes into the document and the things that you should be talking about someone with whom you're hopefully going to spend your life or a great deal of time are very important. And I think a lot of people don't have them 'cause they're not sexy and they're not romantic and they're not fun, but they are important. - I couldn't agree with you more and I'm just gonna get this out of the way. Your firm represented my husband during our prenuptial agreement and when he first brought up your firm's name that was gonna represent him, I was terrified. I was like, oh my god, you've hired Laura Wasser's firm. Like she is a legend, but I have since that point been so comfortable talking about prenupts because of exactly what you just said. It was the hardest thing we've ever gone through. It was not fun at times, but it taught me so much about how we are as a couple, where our strengths were, where we needed to work on the uncomfortable things that I was embarrassed about, that he was embarrassed about and it was actually the most romantic part of planning our wedding. Like I feel like actually teary talking about that because I went into it like a lot of people probably are going into this episode thinking it's scary. It means that someone doesn't trust you, it means that you might be getting divorced and what I can say after going through the process was it was actually like the best thing my husband and I have ever done because it's so hard to talk about money in relationships. 46% of Americans right now are not actively talking to their partner about finances. When do you believe that that conversation should start when you start dating someone? - Kind of really on. I mean, it depends how old you are, but again, if you're in a relationship that you are hoping or thinking might lead to marriage or living together, I think relatively early on. And again, as we are older, particularly women are more in the workforce, we're waiting a little bit longer to get married. What are you talking about during your first couple of dates? I mean, you are going to talk about what you do for a living, you are going to talk about what your goals are. Are we going to have children? Will they go to public or private school? What are we putting away for the future? How long do you think you're going to work? When do you want to retire? What are your goals? Where do you want to live? Do you want to have a vacation? These are the kind of things we talk about. Maybe not as fun or interesting. How much debt do you have? How much are you paying to a former spouse? Have you gotten into trouble before with money? These are things that once you learn the tools to communicate about them, they're going to make your relationship stronger. So you might as well get it out early on. One of the things that I always say about the pre-net process for us was it wasn't just a bit like, here's what I have. Here's what I'm bringing to the marriage. It was like deciding what our role and responsibility would be in the marriage and specifically around what happens to a lot of women. Like, I'm 14 years my husband's junior. So my prime earning years are basically when I am going to be raising children, hopefully. But I think what was one of the most interesting things about it was it really helped me understand what the role and responsibility would be in the marriage. And I think the word pre-nap, you have a visceral reaction to the word pre-nap. It triggers you, it's loaded, and it's very taboo. It's getting less so though. I will say that. Can we explain why we think it is becoming more destigmatized? I think it's becoming more destigmatized. Like most things, because we're talking about it more. Divorce is the same. When I started practicing, I mean, there weren't podcasts, but there would be, you know, morning shows that people would say, oh, divorce. It's a little bit too taboo. We don't want to have her on the show. And when I even started the online divorce platform, people were like, oh, I don't know. Divorce, it's a little bit too taboo. It's there's a stigma to it. Same with pre-nubs, because people have the misconception that a pre-nuptial agreement is pre-negotiating your divorce. And as I imagine, you know, I wanted to say, I never saw your pre-nupt, and nothing to do with it. That was my partner Melanie, so I don't even know what the terms are. But with the pre-nupt, it's not just, here's what will happen if we get divorced. It also has terms for what happened during the marriage, who gets what, what gets paid, how we keep our assets, et cetera. And I think it's really important. Any marriage and subsequently any divorce, if it ends in divorce, if there's four factors to it that don't count children and custody, okay? It's what you own your assets and what you owe, your debts. And then it's what you earn, your income, and what you spend, your expenses. Those four corners, I think, are very important for both parties to a marriage to understand. And so, as you know, particularly in California, the pre-nupt process mandates full disclosure. So you have to be able to tell each other exactly what it is you have, what it is you owe, what it is you earn, and what it is you spend, so that you can figure out what the negotiations are going to be as to what happens to the money that we earn during the marriage, what happens if we split up and how much a support can be? Are there going to be caps on that support, et cetera? Those are important conversations to have before you get married, not before you get divorced, before you get married. The best thing I can say about a pre-nupt, if you do end up getting divorces, it probably won't have as much protracted arguing and litigation. And that's nice for a family, especially if they have kids, and they're going to have to come out the other side of this and continue seeing each other at birthday parties and high school and college graduations and weddings and stuff. But really, it's about how you conduct yourself within the marriage that I think is important. And yes, those roles that you discussed, who does what and who has what? Those are conversations you have. It doesn't go on the pre-nupt. You can't say she's going to raise our children, and if she has a child, despite her end of meisteriosis, and all that, then she will do this. But I do think that starting from that place, and then knowing that all relationships are going to evolve, and the roles will change and evolve, and we're going to grow with each other. And we know that because we talked about this here, that is what you have a successful marriage based on. - For the people that are listening to this, that are thinking, well, I have no assets. I have no liabilities. I'm actually not in debt. Obviously, they have what they're earning. What would you tell that person, as to why they still need a pre-nupt? And it's not just for the one person of people. - Right, I don't know that they do need a pre-nupt, but I would say to them, are you down with the fact, why you don't have anything right now? You get married and every dollar that you earn, every screenplay that you write, every sculpture that you sculpt, every painting that you paint, is going to be half years and half years spouses. And if you're okay with that, then you should enter into the contract of marriage in California where everything is community property. And by the way, if one or the other of you starts making more money during this marriage, then when and if you split up, you are going to be bound by the. laws of spousal support alimony in the state of California. You down with that. And a lot of people would say, yeah, I got nothing to lose. I'm starting this marriage. It's a partnership. I'm okay with that. I would also say fine. Then you don't need a prenup, but I would absolutely have some of the other conversations that might go along with the prenup conversations like, okay, great. When you start making those big bucks, are you going to put a lot of it aside every year for retirement? And are we going to have kids? And if we do, are we going to raise them a certain religion? Are they going to go to public or private? My parents are elderly and I don't ever want to put them in assisted living. They're going to come live with us because that's kind of how we roll in my family. Are you okay with that? Are we going to buy a first house? Are we going to rent all these questions? They wouldn't go in the prenup. But if this is someone you're going to get married to, I would be having those conversations with them. I think it's important. How long should someone start a prenup conversation before a wedding? Oh, long. I think you should start a prenup conversation even before you get engaged because if you give somebody a gorgeous ring that you've saved up for, you have this amazing proposal and he or she says, yes. And then thereafter you say, you don't even set a date yet, but thereafter you say, and I'd like a prenup and they're vehemently opposed to it. Again, that's another red flag. Now you may be able to educate them and they come around because a lot of us go, a prenup, he must not trust me. He doesn't love me. How could I do this? What am I going to tell my family? Then you start having those conversations. But again, people that are thinking that they want to get married. If you're starting to be a grown-up like that and having those conversations, I would start talking about it from the beginning. And those that do, it's a lot easier. I have had a lot of particularly men call me and say, okay, they've already hired me, but they haven't told her that they're going to have a prenup yet. How do I have this conversation? And you were saying it was a really fun conversation at first. Sometimes it's not so fun, but I would definitely put it out there. I wouldn't feel sad or ashamed about it if I'm the person that's asking for it. I would feel like, hey, I've never even had this conversation with someone before. That's how much I love you and how much I see us having a bright future. So I want to have the conversation. And if you sit down for a nice dinner and you have a bottle of wine or whatever, if the wine gets thrown in your face, that's not the right person for you. I was the one that actually broached the topic because I have watched him build and heard about the stories of 25 years of work, like whether it was at Goldman Sachs building his businesses and that came from a place of like, I respect you so much that, of course, we're going to have a prenup. You have worked your ass off. Why would I enter into this marriage thinking that, like, it would be 50/50. And I think that it really shocked him because we were at our ski house and like, we were on a chairlift and I brought up and I was like, so when are we going to start talking with the prenup? Because I know it's going to happen. And I want to feel like I'm in control of what is about to happen. And I think that word control is so important. For someone that feels a loss of control and they need a third party, they need their version of Laura Wassert to help them through this. Even if they've started having these conversations, when is the right time to actually engage a divorce lawyer? I think again, if you're the person that's bringing it up, whether you're the person that's being protected or maybe protected from, so to speak, I think that would be the time. I think it's always good to have a conversation with somebody even before you broach it so that you kind of know where you're going. A lot of this has to do with education. Now, there's a lot of education that can be gotten these days online. Also, there's a fantastic company that's called Hello prenup. And they can do prenups for people that aren't the one percent. You're able to draft it, you're able to get information, you're able to find out about it. And then they have attorneys that will kind of advise and bless you as you go through the negotiations and then sign off on it. And yes, I'm an advisor on this company, but I think that they're just amazing. And they make it easier to learn about it and get through the process. First of all, I love that you're doing equity deals on the side because that is so hotspot rich. People would be mad at me if I didn't ask this question because the number one question that I get from our listener who is like 25 to 55 extremely ambitious, if they haven't already made their money, they're like on the path to doing. So they're building businesses, they're like moving and decision makers at these huge companies, whether it's like Spotify or these big tech organizations. And the number one question that I get from them is, but how do you start? Like who puts something in front of each other? Like how does this process even go? And I know it's situational. What would you say as like the norm of how these conversations actually start in terms of drafting something and putting something in front of the other person? I think it starts with, again, like I said, making it positive. Hey, this is how much I think of you. It's not like I mentioned to every person that I date a prenup. This is a pretty serious conversation. I mean, this is as serious as what kind of stone do you like in the ring or what would be a good venue to get married? This is important. And then the other thing is, do you know what the law in our state is? Like if we didn't have a prenup and we got married, do you know how that looks? And that's kind of how you could have had that conversation with your husband, which is kind of like I know you've been working so hard for so long or on the other. And hey, I've been working, because I've been going to auditions and I've been, I've had small parts and commercials and movies and I feel like I'm about to make it in my career as an actor. And I don't know that every dollar that I make on my next film after we get married should necessarily be 50/50, because I've been working all this time and putting all this energy into this. So I think to start is kind of by saying, do you know what the law is already? And I think it is really making it a positive thing, because when you have the prenup conversation, even before the ring or the venue or let's tell our parents who are engaged, now the person goes, oh, I think he or she is really serious about me. This is kind of cool. We had the prenup conversation. It's almost as if it's a badge of honor. If someone brings up a prenup to you, it's like they think about you very seriously. And that should be a badge of honor. Yeah. One of the things that we did was we didn't call it a prenup. We called it a PMA. A pre-marital agreement. Right. And for me, the rebrand of doing this. And that's why I try to destigmatize this so much on TikTok, because I'm like, it was the best thing that's ever happened to our marriage. But I think there are some of these voyeuristic or escapism kind of clauses that we hear about, which I feel like we need to talk a little bit about. These like outlandish, just crazy terms that get put into a prenup. From what you have seen, what are the terms that get suggested that you tell your clients? Like, we can actually not put this in here because it will it will avoid the entire agreement. Correct. So those infidelity clauses, people ask for those all the time. Now, there are some states where you can have them. I think Louisiana is one, where you can have an infidelity clause. I don't practice there. So California, no infidelity clause, no weight loss or gain clauses believe it or not. No kid clauses. So you can't say you must have a kid or there are certain ones and we don't love them because we think that they're, you know, promotive of divorce. If you have this many kids, then that because there can't be anything about custody or child support in a California prenup. It's going to be what it's going to be. But there are certain things that we will not put in there that have to do with like if she can't have kids, we will get married and I don't have to pay as much. That's a no-no. And then there's crazy things. I mean, I have absolutely seen people request something about, you know, I've seen actually gambling and drug things. If you lose your sobriety or if whatever. Now again, you can put them in the prenup. But if the prenup gets contested and goes to court, the court will not validate it. People agree to anything. And so I have had ones where the person has put in something about a sobriety clause. And I've said, this won't be viable if this is challenge. And the person said, I feel so strongly about this for my own sobriety that I want to put it in. And if I lose my sobriety, I will pay extra because of that. So you can agree to anything. It's just a matter of whether it's going to be a valid and enforceable prenuptial agreement. So what happens if it's void it? Does that clause void the entire agreement? We most of the time put something in that says this agreement can be determined in counterparts and a voiding or lack of enforceability of this clause will not render the entire agreement void. When you have a client that wants to put in something like this, what's the motivation to that from that person do you think? I think that they've heard from so many people are just like living life in this world these days. There's so much that can go wrong. And so you somehow think, well, if I have a prenuptial agreement and I put stuff or a premier or PMA like you like to call it, if I put something in there that covers that, then I'm checking every box of everything that could go wrong. Well, you're not. And so you have to live with the fact that there is some unknowns. This will help you determine how to conduct yourself during the marriage. I mean, there's usually like a state provisions in there. And you can always change your will or your trust, and you don't even have to tell the other person. But this part of it says at least I will leave this. I made change everything else, but this is going to be valid and enforceable and we both agree. So how you conduct yourself during the marriage and what would happen if you got divorced? I want to go back to what you just talked about with gambling because I think one of the things that I've been thinking about and I actually don't have the answer for for my community is if you have no assets and you have no liabilities currently and you're thinking, I don't really need a prenupt. But when we talk about liabilities and specifically gambling, can you have a prenupt that's like, I don't mind sharing 50/50 of every single thing that we make, but I'm not sharing your debt. Like if you have an inkling that someone maybe is a gambler or maybe they take really big risks for their career, because they're not like the safe, you know, put it into the stock market and get that seven percent return. Can you have a prenuptial agreement that's like 100% 50/50 on anything that you earn, but as it relates to accruing liabilities, that is actually something where you can completely separate. I mean, I would imagine that there's a way that that could be drafted where debt is separate property, but earnings are community. I'd have to think about how to do that. And again, that would kind of be a slap provision because I'm guessing that if you were putting a child from a previous relationship through school, that wouldn't necessarily be something that would annoy the other person, but a gambling debt because it's a no-no would. So you have to figure out how to actually frame that. But people do talk about what's separate property and what's community. You could say that as opposed to everything being community property, we carve a certain amount for each of us that's going to be separate property every year, and you gamble with that. So, what drew you to spend your days dealing with pre-napps, divorce, contentious relationships, probably some of the worst days of people's lives? You make it sound terrible, but it's actually, you know what, my dad is and was a family law attorney, I started doing it at the Crocs right after my very, very brief marriage in 1994 ended, and I needed the money. So I went to work for Daddy while I was waiting to get my bar result. And I never left because it is so interesting to watch human nature at work. And you get to see people often at their worst, but then you see them come out the other end and you get to kind of be their spirit animal through this process. They're so raw. But I know so much about so many very interesting people, whether it's interesting because their celebrities are interesting because they're finance, people are whatever. They don't really know much about me at all. They tell you everything. I'm like, I don't, I don't even know that about your sex life, whatever, but I, they tell you everything because they really feel you want, you need to be armed with all of the information and you watch them go through this process. And then, excuse the pun, but married to that is the fact that you're problem solving. I've done this so many times that almost always when somebody walks into my office and tells me the facts and says, here's what we owe. Here's what we spend. Here's what we earn, you know, I go, I know this is how this is going to end up. I already got it. Now let's just get you there. For people I don't know, like pop culture around divorce and pre-napps has literally been built around you. Like you inspired Kim Kardashian's character on All's Fair. What are the situations of people that have watched that show that are genuinely based on true events? What are the things that are just like completely, you would never see that? This is not actually what's happened. Well, we don't have a plane. And my partner Melanie would come in on Wednesday mornings, we'd watch it on Tuesday nights and she's like, where's our plane? Maybe there is no plane. There's no plane. We don't usually drink champagne after we make a deal on the office. Their clothes are very good. I aspire to have those clothes. I don't think a lot of family attorneys dress quite as well as they dress on the show. It's rarely as ugly as their appolson's character makes it. I mean, that's just that kind of behavior is like rather frowned upon. And there were some of the episodes that were kind of, I mean, but that's Ryan Murphy. That's that, you know, nobody's trying to make it like pitch perfect family life. It's an idea of, you know, isn't this grand and amazing and isn't it fun to watch? So there were a lot of actual things that wouldn't happen in a real family law situation. But there were some where I was like, Oh, yeah, that blackmail's totally happened to me. And it has nothing to do with the law. If you're a famous person and somebody less famous than you is divorcing you or suing you and they have something on you, you got to decide whether you're going to let that come out or whether you're going to figure out a way to make it go away. You have an invisible reputation, Laura, that like, Percy, do you from any room that you walk into? And I think a lot of women that are listening to this are building in very male dominated spaces. You said it so quailly like I went and worked for daddy, but like you have done such an incredible thing, building the strongest, I would say, personal brand in this space that has been dominated by males for a woman that's listening to this. That's thinking about building her personal brand. What would you chalk it up to like, be able to stand here or sit here now as Laura Wasser and have that invisible reputation that's followed you or precedes you? So what I'll say is something that I didn't always know. It's probably easier to stand retrospect, but know who you are, know who you are. I think that I watched a lot of other young women who would swear a lot or slam on the table or stand up and yell. And I remember my dad once saying to me like, if you speak softly, they will lean forward and listen to you. We're not men. And we don't, you know, most of us don't portray the same kind of a power that a man will portray in our physicality. So I'm not saying you have to be demure, but I'm saying to sit down and be able to speak in a gracious, graceful way. I like to spend money on clothes. That's not other people's saying, but yes, that's been a part of the whole persona. Oh, God, she's a fashion girl. As you said, I just like it, I mean, I did one of the reasons I wanted to do this is because I make money. And then I spend my money and my kids are taking care of. I spend money on clothes and jewelry and I love it and it's fun and it's a great kind of hobby to have. But I do think knowing who you are, I was, this is years ago now, but I was at council table in a courtroom and I was actually against one of my dad's cronies. And you know, a lot of times they would think that I was less than. I was attractive as a younger woman and I would show up in my pumps and my little outfits and whatever and this one guy leans over to me and he goes, "You may be pretty and you may wear nice clothes and your Christian whatever they are heels, but I've been doing this for 20 years longer than you and I'm going to win." And then, whenever it was that afternoon, when the judge delivered his ruling from the bench and it was all in my favor, I leaned over to him and I go, "How about that, I'm prettier, I have lumotune shoes, I'm wearing nice clothes and I'm winning." And to this day, I remind him of me and he goes, "What a dumb thing of me to say." And I said, "Yeah, I was." But let them underestimate you. You don't have to prove yourself until it's time. That is another thing that I would say. This is why I needed you to be the first person to come on and talk about pre-navs and marriage and love and all these things because you are the epitome of Hot Smart Rich. You also just did a collaboration with Reformation. Yes. Dump him. So fun. Where did this come to be? Dump him did not come from me. That was all them. They have a great marketing team and they called me up, must have been at the end of last year. And I get a lot of calls from people because I represent famous people. A lot of emails that I said go into our info line and so they had said, "Hi, we're really interested in using you for a campaign." And when they finally did get through, I was like, "Who, like, who do you want me to, who am I calling? Who do you want me to call?" And I said, "No, you." I said, "Me? I'm like an old Jewish lady, what do you want me for? I've never modeled." No, we think it'll be great. And then they pointed out to me that last year they had had Pete Davidson doing the greatest boyfriend and the year before they had Monica Lewinsky. And I was like, "Oh, so this is like a thing." And they said, "We want to kind of mold it around, empowering women and ending a relationship doesn't have to be the end of everything and whatever." And they came up with the dump and sweatshirt, which I thought was adorable. And I was a little bit worried about it because I was worried again that my colleagues would be like, "Oh, what, you're a model now." But almost every single one of them and judges have been like, "This is amazing. Thank you so much for doing this. When I go speak at law schools, local law schools, UCLA, Loyola, they're like, you know, particularly young women. Thank you so much. That was so awesome. Thank you." And Reff is the great line. They're close or affordable for young women and for business women. They've got like a great line of business things. They were so nice. It was so fun to do it. And yeah, I really got to get out of it. It was not long ago that Katie and I first started Hawksmart Rich. And it was literally the two of us for so long. But as we've grown our team and our business, our old tools just couldn't keep up, especially on the commercial side of the business. However, we recently switched to our sponsor, Pipedrive. It's an intelligence CRM platform and super simple to use. We need that. So we're obsessed with it. It has completely streamlined everything for us as we grow HSR. The setup was honestly so easy. And now that we've integrated all of our tools into the platform, Pipedrive is ready to grow with us because we're going to the moon. It adapts exactly how your team sells, fitting your unique pipeline sales processes, books, everything. It works just the way you do and it's an absolute game changer. What makes Pipedrive so good is that it scales alongside your business. 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Rella was started by an HSR angel founder, Natalie, Shadow Natalie, hello, and it's been such an honor to watch Natalie build. this and see how helpful her platform is for social teams, trying to grow, plan, give feedback, and improve content quickly. Rela makes it so easy to stay organized and move fast. It is a no-brainer for any HSR angel trying to grow their own social channel. So head to GetRela.com and use code HSR for 10% off your first three months or annual plan. What are some of the tools that we can help people understand to leverage when they are having those types of conversations? I think it's really important to say, "Look, I'm going to be really honest with you. I think it's important to say, this isn't comfortable for me." And particularly as women, we often really don't like to talk about money. And it's a no-win for us because if we make more than our partner, it's uncomfortable and we don't want to emasculate him and we don't want to make things weird. And if we make less, then we're feeling less than and, "Oh, is he with me because I'm a gold digger and I'm not sure and I don't know." So I think really saying, "Look, I'm going to be very honest here. This is uncomfortable for me, but I think this relationship has enough potential that I'm willing to have this discussion. Are you?" And men are generally more willing to talk about money, at least early on. What I've seen a lot is, once the couple gets together, if the man is the breadwinner, he's like, "Yo, you don't worry about it, you're the little woman, I'll take care of things." And I think as women, it's important for us to say, "No, no, I'm your partner and I want to be in this with you and I want to know and maybe we'll meet with our business manager or accountant, not every month, but maybe quarterly, certainly annually. I mean, I see so many women that sign tax returns that have no idea what they say. And even if they did, they wouldn't even know how to interpret them. Let's not give it up. I mean, again, in this day and age, it doesn't make sense that so many college educated young women are simply like dipping out as soon as they get married. You don't have to go to work every day, but if your job is this family, find out what's going on with the family's finances. What do you think the impact of the book's strangers based on exactly what you just said has had with women taking more control of those financial conversations and not being a passive participant to money in their relationships? I think it would even start going back to her pre-knep. I mean, she would mention it and I, in the book, about how there was a pre-knep and it didn't really make sense to her and she wasn't sure. I see a lot of people coming after they've been married a while saying, "I signed this pre-knep and I didn't really understand it." That's a cop out. If you're signing a contract, you need to understand it. And by the way, if you get married without a pre-knep, you're still signing a contract. Because in the state, you live in the laws of that state are going to control when it comes to the property that's earned or accumulated during marriage when it comes to the spousal support that may be paid. So you better understand it, because if you're entering into this relationship, this marriage, and you don't understand what the rules are, then you are exposed. And you're also, to a certain extent, exposing your spouse. You don't have to necessarily know every K-1 that comes in or anything else, but you have to know the basics. So, again, with that book, yeah, that was a little bit generation of the past. I mean, she's probably around my age, maybe a little bit older, I'm not sure. It was a cop out. She was a smart young woman. She should have done a little bit more research in terms of what that pre-knep was. And if she was willing, then when he was saying that he was going to adhere to it throughout the divorce process, that shouldn't have been such a surprise. You mentioned something about red flags, right? And I'm so interested if you want to talk to your person or what you think could be a potential suitor for a marriage about money. What are some red flags? When you say, like, I'm uncomfortable. This is so awkward for me. Like, what are those red flags that you need to be watching out for if they react in a way that isn't actually someone who wants an equal partnership as it relates to financial or anything monetary in the relationship? I think a red flag would be, I know I'm uncomfortable too, let's not talk about this. Or you don't need to worry about it, I got this. Or, you know, my family never spoke about money. I feel that it's very ghost to do so. None of those, all of those are red flags, in my opinion. And what you've seen, what are the risks for people that never have those conversations and then just go in blind? I think it can be very challenging. I mean, these are the women that come home from shopping trips and leave everything in the car until he goes to sleep and then sneak it into the house. These are also the people that may get very scolded if they're spending too much money or not making enough meals at home or hiring too much help. But how is she supposed to know that she's gone above the budget if she doesn't know what the budget is? You're not a real partner unless you're in for the good and in for the bad. And I think a lot of times, partners try to shield the other one from any of the bad news. But I think that can really be detrimental because one of the biggest problems without communication is the resentment that builds up. So if you don't know that you're supposed to be tightening your belt and you're just spending the way you're always spending, but things have gone wrong. He or she, whoever is the owner, is going to start resenting you. You have to have these communications. If someone's listening to this that has been married, they feel like they are that woman. Like they don't have any idea what's going on. They didn't have a prenup. They're spending, but they don't know if it's above their means, below their means, at their means. How would you recommend the best conversations start when you're already now in a relationship years into it? I think one of the ways that a lot of people go about it, and this isn't to be like sneaky or strategic. It really is true, is a state planning. Okay. So you're not asking for a post map. You're not asking for a divorce. You're saying, Hey, we've been married a certain period of time. Maybe we have some kids know how old they are, whatever else. I'm a little bit worried that if one of us were to die, do we have a current life insurance policy? Do what, what are you leaving? How are we leaving it to kids? Have we created trust? That kind of gets you in the door. Now you're in the office within a state planning person, and by virtue of that, most of the disclosures will come out. Here's what we have, and this is where it's going, and here's what this and that would be a way that I would get into it. The other thing to say is, Hey, I was listening to a podcast today, and it became very evident to me that I am completely ignorant when it comes to our finances. I've completely abdicated my responsibility. Let me get in here, and I also can be helpful. I can help with the bill paying, I can help with the budgeting, once I know what's going on. And if he says, no, that in turn is also kind of a red flag, and I would insist upon it. I usually ask this towards the end of the relationship, but because we're talking about money, and I think you've seen a lot, do you believe that money buys happiness? No, no. I really don't. I've been doing this for a very long time, and I've seen a lot of very, very wealthy, very, very unhappy people. I'm sure that there's very unhappy poor people, too. And I think that yes, it can be easier if you have a lot of money, but that expression, more money, more problems is also absolutely true. I don't believe it buys happiness. I think you have to find that. From what you've seen, has there been a level of wealth that people have where it's like it makes things easier, so happiness can come a lot faster, but it's not too much where it's like, that's when the more money, more problem starts happening. Is there an enough amount of money? I think it's relative. I mean, I definitely think that some people will never be able to fill that hole, and that's why they're striving for more and whatever, and what they're looking for isn't going to come in the form of zeros in the bank account. I also think that there's plenty of people that go, I'm good. I made it. It's kind of like when you are eating, and the first few bites taste so delicious, but then if you keep eating, you get really full, and it really is kind of gross, but it tastes so good when it's going down, but you're like, I'm so full, I'm so full. That's kind of what I think it's like, because I think sometimes when you get too much, you amassed too much, all these problems are people taking advantage of me. Do they only like me for my money? Is the reason that they're coming over to our house for dinner because they know we have a private chef, is the only reason our kids have these friends is because they have a screening room in the house, and it may not be true or it may, but you don't know it. A certain point. So yeah, I think there is too much, but I think it's different for each person. When that disparity changes, so let's say, Hayley Bieber and Justin, right? One person started with a significant more money than the other, and then someone comes into wealth. They've built a business. They have an inheritance. What have you seen those dynamics of those relationships change when one spouse actually becomes more of an equal contributor as it relates to finances in a relationship? Again, I think it depends on the couple. I think it depends on how the dynamic was before. I do believe that most relationships, whether they're romantic or business, are a contract. It's a deal, okay? So if you get into a relationship with someone and the deal is you make the money and I, whatever it is, look good on your arm, make the dinner reservations, raise the kids, control our social network, and then things change. The person who was before making the money, is that person now supposed to be role-shifting? Or is he or she just happy for the person that's come up? It really depends. It depends what your goals are in the relationship. I think it's important to talk about them. The couple you mentioned, I'm guessing that she had said them at some point because they knew each other for so long. Hey, I really want to create a cosmetic industry that sells for a lot of money. That's always going to be the biggest goal. And I would imagine, I would hope, that he was super happy for her when that happened. But I don't know if it changed the dynamic in their relationship at all. When you've seen the dynamics of women versus men in these conversations, who leverages what most as it relates to women versus men? 1015 years ago, I would have said. Women leverage kids, men leverage money. I really do think that that's changed, and I really do think that now it's whoever is the earning spouse. I mean, I've dealt with women that are so male when they have these conversations that it's, and I get that 'cause I'm a bit like that myself, 'cause I'm the earner in my family, although I don't have a spouse, so I have to lord it over my children, I suppose, but I do understand where that's coming from, and so the mentality of being the breadwinner, and having to be the one that's fiscally responsible for everything, I definitely find to be non-gender specific anymore. I have seen in the last 10 to 15 years, women that are like, wait, I'm the breadwinner, I'm gonna have to pay him support, I'm gonna have to share everything I have with him, and he's still gonna get custody, even though he's not a stay-home dad, yeah, he stays home, but I'm still paying a nanny, and a driver, and a chef, and everything else, so there's a lot of rage with a lot of times, but I also think it's another thing that women are coming to accept. If you're the breadwinner, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so yeah, you're gonna be paying support, and you're gonna feel the way men have probably felt for ages when they have to pay alimony and child support, and turn over half of the retirement accounts and everything else. - You used to represent mostly men. I would say it's always been about 6040. It was maybe a little bit more men, but there's 20 of us at the firm, so it really is a mix. I think Melanie may represent more women, for whatever that means. I definitely represent more earners. - Why do you think that is? - I think that they try to figure out a way to come to me first. I think that for my personality, it's probably easier to represent the earner's spouse because I have the same mentality. Again, and I use that word kind of lately. If there's a couple and they've been married for 30 years, and they've amassed a huge amount of community property, I'm not necessarily referring to the person that's going into an office every day as the earner, because I feel like that's their money. They don't have a prenup. They're both very wealthy. And what is actually still frustrating is in 2026, when you have somebody go, I'm not giving her half of my money. I'm like, bro, that is half of her money. There's not giving her anything. So, again, that's why you need to know what the contract is when you get married. - Do you ever decline working with clients if they have that mentality? Like, I'm not giving her half because this is my money when she's supported that person for 30 years. - It doesn't matter that she's supported them for 30 years. It just matters that they got married in California with no prenup and they were married. She could have not supported him at all. She could have been sleeping with the tennis instructor. She's still getting half. California is a no-fall state. So, would I not represent them? I would explain to them what the law is. And as you can imagine, I represent a lot of people who are very used to hearing yes. They are surrounded by people who tell them yes. As they should be at their level of wealth and celebrity, I get it. I can't be that person. I can't be a person that tells them yes. I'm just not that good. The law is what the law is. And we're not gonna change it in California because she slept with the tennis instructor. It's been that way for a long time. So, I will say no. And then they will decide whether they still think that I am somebody that they want to work with, even though I say no. And they say I appreciate her candor. And I appreciate the fact that she's being honest with me. And I appreciate that she's gonna do the best that she can for me, given the parameters of the law. Or they'll say I'm gonna go find someone else. Thank you for your time. And that's okay too. Hot take incoming. Making more money as a creator doesn't actually require you to have more followers. I see so many creators getting this wrong. And this is part of the reason why I love what our show partner Stan is doing with their V2 of their funnels and order bumps. Because if someone is already buying from you, that's a completely different moment than someone casually watching your content. It means that they trust you, they're paying attention, they're already in checkout mode. So instead of sending everyone to one link and hoping for the best, Stan helps you create a smarter buying journey. And with order bumps, someone can add something extra at checkout with one click. If you are building a creator business, this is the kind of thing you should be obsessed with like every brand founder is. I'll let you in on one secret. The top earners on Stan all do this. Sign up today to set up your funnels and order bumps and get started with a 30 day creator pro trial at link.stan.store/next. There are certain expenses in life that are so automatic you never really think about them. For example, rent and mortgage payments. The same amount goes out every month and you don't give it a second thought, but you should. Think about this. If you're already making this big payment every month and you could get something back for it, why would you not? And this is exactly what our sponsor built does. Whether you rent or own, built lets you earn points every time you make rent or mortgage payments. Then you can put those points towards flights, hotels, lift rides, Amazon.com purchases, and more. And getting started is really easy. You download the built app, link your credit or debit card, then use built neighborhood costiers, which can sort restaurant reservations for you or get you booked into fitness classes. And quite a lot more. To download the built app and join the membership for where you live, head to joinbuilt.com/HSR. That's j-o-i-n-b-i-l-t.com/HSR. One of the clauses that people thought we were crazy about related to embryos and sperm on ice. And I will never forget. I would never even have known to put this into our PMA had my good friend not told me about it. And she was like, you are so in love with Courtney that if God forbid something happens to him because he has sperm on ice, you would want to be able to carry his children. And we had this whole conversation about embryos and I won't get into my specific situation, but I saw a news article the other day that said that like now that embryo freezing has become so common, especially because women are waiting longer to get married. What happens to those embryos if there is a divorce or there is a breakup? Are you seeing that more in the pattern of people putting that into pre-nabs? And what would you recommend to people as a way to start thinking about that? Yeah, we're definitely seeing a lot of that with all of the variations, whether it's eggs, embryos, sperm, surrogacy, agreements. Most of the fertility centers in California have contracts that you sign when you're there. So what we will do is try to make sure that our pre-napp is in alignment with whatever is there if they come to us and they've already frozen the eggs, the embryo or the sperm. And then if not, we put that in the pre-napp within the parameters because we have people that we work with that are like surrogacy and fertility lawyers. And then we say to them, make sure when you go to the fertility clinic, you show them this provision because you want it to mirror whatever they have, which is usually just boxes that you check. And so again, it's gonna be what happens if we get divorced, what happens if one of us dies. And usually the options are he gets them, she gets them, they're destroyed. We give them to either science or to somebody that needs them. That's a little bit basic, but that's all the fertility centers are need to do. We might wanna make, I'm sure you've seen cases in the news about what happens to the embryos. And if you have that embryo, let's say your husband didn't die, but you split up and for whatever reason you had agreed that the embryos were gonna be yours, now you have a child out there in the world which he actually might be liable to pay child support for, even if he said, I don't want any more kids. So you have to be very, very careful about what you do going into them. And again, another thing to discuss. This show is listened to by 75% of females, 25% of males, even though I do not speak to them, but we love you. What are other just like pieces of wisdom that you've seen Laura for women to really be able to feel empowered going into these discussions that we might not be thinking about? One thing that comes up a lot in divorce Maggie is gifts, okay? And this happened more in the past than now, but we had cases back in like the 90s and early 2000s where somebody would bring home a Bentley for their wife with a big bow on it and say happy anniversary. I love you, baby. And then they'd split up and he'd be like, I didn't buy that for you. Look at the title of the car. That's my car. Well, that's our car to community property or Picasso that hung over the mantle forever and it was presented as a birthday gift, but he was like, that was not a gift. That was something. So now we put in there where it says, and usually jewelry, burkins, those are usually personal properties that are considered gifts, but raw gems, raw diamonds, stuff like that, art, cars. You never really know. And if it's purchased with separate property money, the person might say that was never a gift, it was never meant to be a gift. So now we put something in there saying, if a gift is more than and the couple decides, is it $25,000, is it $50,000? You have to write down, this is a gift. Don't be telling me it's a gift with a big bow on it and then be taking it away again at our divorce. If it's a gift, it's mine and you will write something saying it's a gift. Could Sarah, that's listening to this in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, who did not have a prenup, knows nothing about her finances with her husband, he comes home with a Range Rover with a bow on it. If she sends an email to her husband and she says, thank you so much for the gift, can you please confirm that this is a gift? It is mine in practice. Will that cover her if there is a divorce proceeding without a prenup? - I'd have to ask one of my Florida colleagues as they do things a little bit different there, but I will tell you this, if Sarah wasn't married, if they weren't married so there could be no presumption that whatever purchased the Range Rover was the source of funds that made it what the character was, then it was a gift. So for example, an engagement ring, if you asked me to marry you and I'm walking around in that ring, I keep that ring unless I call off the marriage. If I call off the marriage, I have to give it back, but if you call off the marriage or we call it, quits together, that gift is mine. And any other gift that you give me, you give me a berk and you give me a car. We're not married, that's a gift. - So you're saying that if you get engaged and you're the one that called it off, you give the ring back. But if you get broken up with, you get to keep the ring. - Yes. - Is that the rule of law? - In California it is, there is a statute that says promise to marry. And the ring is actually something that's given in consideration for a promise to marry. So if you call off the marriage, you give the ring back. So what you have to do is just be that annoying that he goes, I'm out. Keep the fucking ring. Yeah, what about a divorce? If you are the one that wants to serve the papers, makes no difference. - Why? - It doesn't matter who is the petitioner, which is the person serving the papers or the respondent, the person getting them. I have had a lot of people say it's more shovel risk to let the woman be the petitioner who wants, nobody wants to feel like they're being dumped. So let her do it, but it makes no difference. And in fact, just this year in California, at least in L.A. County, we now have a joint petition. So you might have read a lot of times when we have celebrity clients, rather than having one person file and then the news explodes about it. We have a whole news cycle. And a week later, the other person files will try to arrange for them to file on the same day. So everyone knows this is amicable. It was planned, nobody's dumping anybody. We both file on the same day. Now you can actually file a joint petition, meaning both parties are going to be in this together. And I think just for media purposes, especially with our clients, it's great. Because it really sets a tone at the beginning, which is we're not going to spread lies about each other or talk crap about each other in the media. We're both in this together. We want to protect our family. We want to protect our relationship. And we're going to do this in the best possible way. How much of that ego drives those types of decisions? That's it relates to divorce. Because it feels like there's a lot of weight that gets put to like, who serves who first, or what the image will be of the harass, I guess, of the public. Like, how much weight is put into those types of the decisions? Not a lot, but for the people it is. For us, we don't care who's petitioner and who's responding. I mean, when I say, we, I mean, the family law attorneys, but a lot of times they do. And our job is to make it as easy for these people as possible. So if it doesn't matter, and a guy says to me, hey, are you OK with us filing as the woman? It's important. I'm like, of course, it doesn't matter. Now, again, once you become scrutinized by media because you're famous, now it's a whole nother thing. And then you have to get the PR people involved. And what do we do? And what are we saying? What's the joint statement? And I'm usually like, I don't care. That's for you guys to figure out. My firm says nothing. We dump you straight to a press line. I will never make a statement about any of my clients, even if they ask me to. I'm like, find another person to make this statement. That's just kind of how we roll. But I do. I think ego is important. And the other thing to know is, in today's day and age, everybody is the protagonist of their own reality TV show. So even if they're not famous, but if they're in a group, at a country club, or a book club, or the kids' school, all of a sudden, it becomes incredibly important who filed and what they said and whatever. And so it really is, you have to be mindful of it. Because while for us, it's just the daily grind. For them, this is hopefully one or two times in their life that they're going to be getting divorced. And it's really important. Can we talk about that a little bit of, like, one or two times? Because my assumption would be-- and I guess I-- I don't know why I would assume that considering like I was engaged before. And it didn't stop me to want to get married to the right person. But when you say people do this one or two times, how many people that get divorced the first time end up wanting to get remarried? So many. I think that human beings were not really meant to mate for life. I think-- and that's why I think if you get married when you're older, your marriage might stick. Many do. And again, like I said, they're so lucky. That's so good for them. If you're in a happy marriage after a certain period of time, god bless. But you are one of the lucky ones. The majority of people aren't. They either get divorced or they're unhappy and they're kind of stagnating in their relationship, which I also don't think is a good thing. But if people get divorced and then they get married again, if it's a starter marriage, like you said. And so they haven't had kids the first time or whatever. They want to go on and they want to have children and they want to have a family. That makes sense. I think the statistics, Maggie, are something like 50% of marriage is end of divorce, but more like 60% or 65% of second marriage is end of divorce. And then a higher percentage of third marriages, which leads me to believe that once you've gotten divorced, it gets easier to get divorced. It's not so taboo. And so you're just getting divorced all over the place, which also probably isn't great. But those are the statistics. The more times you've been married, the more likely you are to get divorced. What are the reasons that people get divorced, most often? A lack of communication. People will say it's extramarital affairs. People will say it's with money problems. People will say, oh, we had a sick kid who, you know, God forbid, died, or we had a remodel of our house. All of those things can be determining factors. But all of them are as a result of drifting apart and not communicating and these resentments building up. So we're not having sex with each other. We're angry about it. I go sleep with somebody else. Or you're not earning enough money. We got married. I thought we were going to be living a certain lifestyle. Now we're not. Why am I bothering to keep up appearances? And I'm so angry about it and we're getting divorced. And the kid one is obvious. Like you're experiencing so much grief. Something goes wrong. And then the house remodel also. It's a terrible time. You're redoing things in the house. There's jackhammers happening. Everything's dusty. You're arguing. You're spending way too much money. It always costs more. But again, if you have developed the ability to be able to talk about it, even yell about it. And you're able to get in with a therapist. It doesn't even matter how good the therapist is. They could just be like a crash test dummy. But you're in there with a third party that's impartial talking about this. You can usually work through it. We are about to see such a shift with women in society culturally because of the great wealth transfer that's about to happen. I think it's 101 trillion dollars is going to go to the pockets of women by 2048. That would be nice. What do you expect will happen or predict? Will happen as it relates to marriages when women come into that much money? I think we'll see a lot more pre-neptal agreements. I think we'll actually see fewer marriages. I think people look, everyone loves the beautiful white dress being the princess, the amazing photos of you and your bridesmaids and your groom and your family. It's a great gig. I mean, that's why wedding planners and florists and cakes and venues and even the people that do the ceremony, whether it's a priest or a judge or a rabbi, it's a great situation because you're celebrating an amazing day. And that will always be something that people love doing. I think you may end up seeing more commitment ceremonies and having these wonderful days, but not necessarily with a legal marriage with the state involved. I think that you will see more fiscal responsibility and more-- I think what I have seen is that when there are women earners, we are even more likely to be like, oh no, I'm not going to do that. I don't want to do that, I'm fine. And often the men will say, I get it. Why would you want to give me half of everything you worked so hard for? Whereas women will say, why wouldn't you give me half of everything you've worked so hard for? I'm going to be home, taking care of our kids, whatever. So I think that there will be a shift. And my hope is that shift will just be a lot more education of people. And we have so much available to us online now. Just go online. And chat GPT, whatever conversation you want to have about finances, about shared credit card expenses, about whatever it is, debt, bankruptcy, anything, you will find it. And then you can speak to it honestly and with good communication. It's fascinating to me that you don't have a spouse at home. But you have this amazing relationship that you're so adorable about on social media. And there was one post of your one-year anniversary where you talked about just like being head over heels and love with this move on Rouge quote. And I'm so fascinated while you're here. After everything that you see, do you still believe in love? 100%. 100%. And the quote was, the hardest thing you'll ever learn is to love and be loved in return. And I think that that is hard. I think it's hard for anybody who has grown up and being surrounded by jaded situations. And so even if you're not a divorce lawyer, growing up in Southern California, specifically Beverly Hills, 80s, 90s, then going to law school, then becoming a family lab practitioner, of course. But I also believe it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. We're on this planet to experience and to give experiences. And so if you close yourself off to love or those experiences, then you're kind of wasting space in my opinion. Laura Wasser, I'm obsessed with you. Is there anything else that we haven't talked about that you would want a woman to hear before you leave and we do some fun rapid fire? I would just say that if you are going to go through a divorce, it really isn't the end. It's the beginning. And whether it's a divorce that you initiated because things weren't working or he initiated it. And again, there's a lot of people that I'm sure we're talking to that are same-sex couples. So whoever is hearing this, this is your opportunity. This is your opportunity to really recreate yourself and change things that were different in the last relationship and take this opportunity. And I really do think this is a chance for a new chapter in a new beginning. And I'm trying to get people to understand just like there shouldn't be a stigma around prenuptial agreements because PMAs are actually a badge of honor and a great thing. A divorce is not a failure. A divorce is just moving on to the next chapter. And we see so many families these days that are vacationing together even after they split up that go to the birthday parties together. They're still having family events even with a new partner and everything else because truly the more people that love your kids, the better. So why not take it like that instead of taking it as a failure or a travesty. And I think we will have a healthier discourse when it comes to what I do for a living. It's just more lore for you. I always say my failed engagement is just my lore. Exactly. It's what people talk about on Reddit. It makes me relevant. Laura Wassert, what is the last possible thing that you put on your credit card? We were at a wedding on Saturday night and I saw this woman that had this amazing fan and we're going to Europe in two weeks. So I bought the fan. I bought it sitting at the table on my phone. I feel like yours is going to be good for this because you're a shopper. What is the last most expensive thing you put on your credit card? Ooh, the last, well probably a hotel room in Capri. Okay, what is your credit card? And why? MX Platinum. It's easy. Points. Yeah. Well, I don't usually use the points. Very frustrating. MX, if you're listening, but it is easy and they have very good fraud control and there have been some fraud incidences. That is such a lawyer, Andrea. What is the craziest clause you've seen in a prenup? There was the clause that somebody wanted that if she doesn't lose the baby weight within a certain period of time, which I would not put in. Easiest place to get a divorcing health in the United States. I think it's still Nevada, but I'm not sure. Hardest place to get a divorce problem we hear. It takes six months. You have to be a resident before. There's a lot of hoops to jump through in terms of financial disclosures. We're tough. We're definitely tougher than New York State. And Florida. Yeah. Yeah, Florida is probably one of the easier ones. Totally. Uh, Laura Wassert, we do these things called H.S.R. Love Notes. It's basically an affirmation to retrain your brain to think really positive. If you could only tell yourself one H.S.R. Love note for the rest of your life, what would it be? Carpideum. Live for the day. When you get old like me, you have to do those affirmations because you're like, you never know what could happen. And if you could title this season of your life, what would it be called? The best. Is it? It really is the best. I'm at that point like I was talking about before where I've eaten enough and I'm just pleasantly satisfied and I don't necessarily need to make a ton more. I don't need to take a ton more bite. I'm really enjoying where I am right now in my life with my family, my kids, my significant other. We're having a really good time. So along on social media, where can people find you and how can H.S.R. help you? Okay. So I'm at Laura Wasser official. That's my Instagram. I'm not really on any other social media. And how can you help me? I think to help me would be to kind of get the word out about changing the way we look at divorce, making it more accessible for people. And that's with not only mediation and divorce attorneys, but divorce.com, which is also a company that I'm affiliated with. Pre-NUPS. Hello. Pre-NUPS is one. And really just going and using the resources that we have available to us on the internet, that's how you can help me. Thank you so much Laura. We love you. Thanks. [Music]